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Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 12 |
Roose, Kevin (2019-06-08). "The Making of a YouTube Radical". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.149.246.103 ( talk) 04:28, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Whipple, Tom (January 10, 2009). "The mother and son torn apart by web 'cult' that destroys families". The Times. Retrieved October 19, 201.
Ha, Tu Thanh (December 12, 2008). "How a cyberphilosopher convinced followers to cut off family". The Globe and Mail.
"Trapped In A Cult?". Channel 5.
Collins, Ben (5 February 2016). "Meet the 'Cult' Leader Stumping for Donald Trump". The Daily Beast.
Turns out they only need a handful of clickbait articles (which were written by their colleagues at the NYT, dailybeast, and the globally trusted and respected "channel 5") to permanently prove you're evil
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.149.246.103 ( talk) 04:29, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Some good information here about how Molyneux's views are received by professional psychology. The first one is already cited but only for residence, none of it's other information is present in the article. Particularly noteworthy is this quote from the College of Psychologists of Ontario, saying to Molyneux's wife that her "statements in support of deFOOing are not supported by current professional literature or consistent with the standards" of the college. As it stands the Family-of-origin (FOO) relationships subsection could use a more balanced perspective, and someone might as well add Molyneux's spouse (Christina Papadopoulos) to the infobox since apparently she was newsworthy. Have fun! Wk7sn ( talk) 03:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Are there any videos where he says it himself and/or says that he supports what those labels mean? 201.226.235.99 ( talk) 21:05, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
"It would be cruel to arouse false expectations, so I had better say at once that Molyneux does not succeed in his noble goal. He fails, and fails miserably. His arguments are often preposterously bad."would be cherry-picking, as well.
A glance at Stefan Molyneux’s subscriber count (650,000+) on YouTube suggests that he is a charismatic, persuasive and influential individual. A skilled propagandist and an effective communicator within the racist “alt-right” and pro-Trump ranks, his promotion of scientific racism and eugenics to a large and growing audience is a serious concern. Molyneux has been delivering “race realist” propaganda, based on pseudo-scientific sources, to his audience on an ongoing basis for over two years, and thus has encouraged thousands of people to adopt his belief in biological determinism, social Darwinism and non-white racial inferiority. Molyneux puts considerable effort into cloaking the practical implications of these beliefs across his media platforms.[1]
@ Grayfell, Dennisne, Zaathras
1) Dennisne comment "You are a biased unfit editor" - WP:PA Very inappropriate.
2) The one source Dennisne and Grayfell both agree on is the SPLC ( Dennisene states: "The SPLC is also unimpeachable, not because it's unbiased (it is), but because..." - Dennisne comment from above). I think Zaathras would agree to this also. On the SPLC article, it states: From roughly 2013/2014 to the present, the content of Molyneux’s output has become politically extreme, shifting from the Ayn Rand libertarian right (and from supporting Ron Paul in 2008) to the ethno-nationalist far-right, supporting Donald Trump ... By far the most disturbing aspect of his move to the far-right [2] - "shifting from ...libertarian right" to "ethno-nationalist far-right"
The SPLC article goes into detail about his "eugenics", "biological determinism", "white supremacy". It documents his association and collaboration with individuals and organizations that are "far-right", "neo-Nazi", involved with Holocaust denial, the KKK, and other undeniably racist and white supremacist individuals and organizations. Describing him as "right-wing", "far-right", "white supremacist" is an accurate representation from the source.
It describes him as an "ethno-nationalist", White Nationalist is describing him accurately frm the source.
Extremists often pull from multiple, sometimes seemingly opposite or contradictory philosophies to create an ideology. He might use ideas from "anarcho-capitalism", but that does not make him an anarcho-capitalist, any more than Hilter using ideas from socialism made him a socialist or Lenin using ideas from capitalism make him a capitalist. Additionally, just because someone calls themselves something or uses a label does not make it accurate. Hitler may have called himself a humanitarian and Lenin may have thought he was an advocate for the working class - this doesn't make it true. The preponderance of reliable sources documenting something is what matters, not the opinion of an editor or subject.. The SPLC documents what he has done and said, his associations and the causes he supports. It documents pretty clearly that his "anarcho-capitalism" is a means to an end, not the end itself.
SPLC article : [3] Since the one source everyone agrees is 'unimpeachable" and meets the standards of WP:RS is the SPLC and it clearly documents him as a racist, far-right, white supremacist/nationalist, neo-Nazi, these labels are appropriate.
Most of the of the other "sources" mentioned above do not meet WP:RS / WP:QUESTIONABLE
A separate issue would be is he also (in addition to the above) an "anarcho-capitalist"? what does "anarcho-capitalist" mean to Molyneux? and for what purpose does he use ideas from "anarcho-capitalist" ideology?
// Timothy:: talk 19:57, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
How about leaving out any labels, and simply saying "Stefan Molyneux is a Canadian podcaster and YouTuber who often speaks on philosophical and political topics." A section in the article could cover what the media says about him. 66.115.87.148 ( talk) 21:30, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
The SPLC is used extensively as a source on this encyclopedia and the general consensus among active editors is that the SPLC is reliable for its conclusions about extremist political groups and individuals, with attribution, as is the case here. Despite its occasional errors, there is no other organization that even comes close to the comprehensive research that the SPLC has done on organized extremism, hate and racism in English speaking countries, especially the United States. They have no credible rival and they will continue to be used as long as that consensus exists. The summary information regarding Molyneux cited to the SPLC is well-supported by many other more specific references in the article, and I see no evidence that their overall conclusions in this case are inaccurate. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:13, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
In my view...". Mr. Edit5001, with respect, that essentially invalidates your point. Personal opinions on sources do not matter.
Zaathras (
talk)
03:19, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
A news article that carelessly labels him as a white-nationalist alt-righter, just because he apparently made "islamophobic" tweets about Note Dame cathedral, without producing any evidence of such tweets, or how they were islamophobic.
Using said news article to introduce his wiki page with "alt-right white nationalist" is ridiculous. If he really is, the what on earth kind of a source is that.
This whole wiki page is a disgrace, made by someone telling lies to themselves, because they don't like a person. And of course it's protected, hey, but the vandalism still remains. Hansel Zweinhander ( talk) 08:19, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
The article currently states that his business was sold in 2000 but the link points to a sale in 2002 when then business was foreclosed according to the CDNX(now Toronto Stock Exchange). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.5.79.2 ( talk) 10:33, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Stefan Molyneux has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
there is no evidence to suggest stefan is a white supremacist or white nationalist. wikipedia has turned into a far left propaganda platform 216.158.244.243 ( talk) 18:43, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
There is a lot of discussion about the neutrality of this article above. I have inserted a POV heading. Please try to improve the article. I Please discuss why you think the article is neutral before removing the header. Thank you. Mike Young ( talk) 09:13, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
The first sentence has to go. The words "Far-right", "White supremacist" and "Scientific racism" are hardly neutral.
The article should talk about what he believes, rather than what cherry-picked sources say about him. I see nothing about the "non-aggression principle, peaceful parenting, anti-circumcision etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike Young ( talk • contribs) 04:34, January 17, 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for those comments. I will look at them and comment in the next day or so. I welcome additional comments below. However, we have not yet had a discussion about why you think this is a neutral article so please give others a chance to comment and do not remove the NPOV before a concensus has been reached. Mike Young ( talk) 22:37, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
LGBT Person wiki article, we can't call this lgbt person this, they prefer to be called this other thing. Right Ring Person wiki article, We don't care how they describe themselves we can only use biased sources that dislike this person. 2605:A000:1E02:E1C4:E53A:F4EA:B80:F536 ( talk) 06:23, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Stefan Molyneux has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The information contained in Stefan Molyneux's wiki page that he is a white supremacist is the most ridiculous thing i've read in a long time. I challenge you to point out anything he has said or position he has taken that could remotely be considered "white nationalist" or "white supremacist". The simply fact of the matter is that he uses philosphy, reason, and evidence to challenge many of the long standing uber liberal views on society, to have conversations and further the discussion. Wikipedia should be ashamed of having this kind of outright lies on their site.
TlCottrell ( talk) 18:44, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
There are dozens of
reliable sources describing Stefan as a white supremacist. If you want to learn about the things he said that could be considered "white supremacist", I encourage you to take a look at those sources, which thoroughly explain it. I'm sure that Wikipedia editors can forgive you for describing this as an "outright lie", since we understand that not everyone may have reviewed the sources and checked what experts say on the matter.
Now, you may disagree with those sources, but your opinion
does not matter here. If you are confused by any of this, please consult Wikipedia guidelines.
BeŻet (
talk)
13:11, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Mr Molyneux has always denied being a supporter of "white nationalism", and he has never claimed that white people have, on average, higher intelligence than all other races. I think his interest in IQ is misguided (personally I believe that all an IQ test measures is the ability to do IQ tests - so I reject the idea that low I.Q. is the reason why some areas of the world are poorer than other areas), but his opinions are certainly not what this article presents as his opinions. Also the article violates the basic rules of fairness, by overwhelmingly citing the enemies of Mr Molyneux, there is no attempt to cite friendly and unfriendly sources equally - and I am told that Mr Molyneux has even been "locked out" of his own Wikepedia page, thus giving him no chance to defend himself. Wikipeia claims to be "fair" and also claims that "anyone can edit" - this article casts serous doubts on both of those claims 2A02:C7D:B41D:C800:487A:E896:D358:1375 ( talk) 17:18, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
It's completely irrelevant what Molyneux thinks he is, we are reporting what independent, reliable sources describe him as. BeŻet ( talk) 22:58, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Claiming that what he says is irrelevant is completely nonsensical when you are reporting on what he says, if a "reputable source" claims he says something, when there's primary evidence that he doesn't (I.E. multiple videos of Molyneux himself saying the opposite) that source should cease to be considered reputable. 80.233.52.40 ( talk) 17:49, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
References 2,4,6,7 should be removed as they are links to articles that don't reach the standards of a reference. (They reference events and statements with out supporting evidence) if they did I would suggest using those link instead.
Reference 3 should be changed to his SPLC page ( https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/stefan-molyneux) rather than just a link to the wiki page for SPLC once again this is NOT a reference Sntelmo ( talk) 21:25, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
Not sure when it changed but this page was more biased than it is now until very recently. It amounted to a character assassination and a one sided opinion of his views out forward by his political opponents. There has been a lot of popular media lambasting of him that has had a platform on Wikipedia. Moderated now but still negatively biased as per media. Stephan states his own views very clearly and supporters these with research and data. LiquidElk76 ( talk) 06:40, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Obviously I like him, that's why I'm defending him. But that doesn't mean I have my head in the sand. If you have evidence that he is racist, I'll accept it. That being said, I looked through the sources for the claims in the first paragraph of this article and they don't hold up to scrutiny. For example, the SPLC's article on him uses as an example a sentence he uttered on his podcast: “I don’t view humanity as a single species...” Now that seems inflammatory and racist, until you look at the context, which the SPLC cites and apparently they didn't listen to (or they did and they're hoping you don't). In the show, he's referring to the difference between evil psychopaths and the rest of us, not to people of difference races. That's just one example. Does anyone have an example that does show that he's racist?
I've been a listener of his for a while and haven't encountered a single piece of evidence that he's a racist or wants a white ethno-state. In fact, his beliefs contradict those accusations. First, he is an anarchist, which is about as far as you can get from supporting an ethno-state (because that would require a lot of government intervention). There are instances of him supporting border controls, but that's only because a welfare state exists -- as Milton Friedman said, "you can’t have open borders and a welfare state." Agree or disagree with him, if we assume that's true, then supporting border as a defensive measure while the welfare state exists is not supporting borders as an ultimate ideal. Molyneux is for the elimination of political borders as long as the government isn't intervening in other ways. Here's an analogy: if a slave get to vote on an overseer and one would beat him more and he votes for the one that beats him less, is the slave supporting slavery? Second, the claims of racism come mostly from calling him a supporter of "scientific racism," a term which is normally put in quotes to mock those who allegedly try to mask their racism with fancy scientific terms. Molyneux draws from conclusions from The Bell Curve and other scientists who show that the average IQ is significantly different for each race. And what IQ tests show is that white people are not the most intelligent, so he's not much of a white supremacist if he believes that whites aren't the most intelligent, that should be your first clue that the label is just slander. But, you might say, maybe putting whites somewhere in the middle of the IQ spectrum is just a ploy to make the racism more believable and as long as the blacks and mexicans are under whites that's good enough. Now we're entering pretty speculative territory, which would be cut by Occam's Razor unless you have great evidence. But, you might still say, even if he honestly believes that whites are somewhere in the middle of the IQ spectrum, isn't that sill racist against the races that fall under the middle? Let's define racism: it's the believing that one race is superior to another. Ask yourself: if you are smarter than one of your friends, does that make you superior to them? If you answered yes, then you're wrong because intelligence doesn't determine a human's value, it's only one factor of who we are. If you answered no, then it doesn't make sense to call Molyneux a racist based on him mentioning IQ research. But, you might insist, even if that's all true, why does he talk about IQ if not to denigrate other races? Because if societies operate on the wrong hypothesis that every race has the same average IQ, then large differences in economic success will lack the explanatory power of differences in IQ and the odds that the economic differences will be blamed on racism in the workplace will be much higher. The reason not many other people out there talk about IQ research is because so many people fail to understand that intelligence doesn't determine the value of a human and will try to destroy the career of anyone who talks about it. And this article is a perfect example of that misunderstanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CheckThatSpelling ( talk • contribs) 01:59, 3 April 2020 (UTC) — CheckThatSpelling ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
"Saying Molyneux is a white supremacist does not unjustly harm his reputation"? Bus stop ( talk) 15:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
"Molyneux's reputation [...] is in no way harmed by [Wikipedia] saying he is a white supremacist. [...] That is his reputation.This is your opinion and is disputed by many other editors. It is not an incontrovertible fact. - 218.214.175.194 ( talk) 06:41, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
Just to point out that that mangled quotation is essentially a violation of the
WP:TPG, as it reduces the quoted text to near-incomprehensibility. I didn't write the original, but a more reasonable excerpt would be Molyneux's reputation as a white supremacist ... is in no way harmed by saying he is a white supremacist
. In other words. Molyneux's reputation *is* as a white supremacist, not as anything else. You can certainly dispute this characterization as you like, IP, but obfuscating what others are saying so that you can pivot to another topic does not help you make any sort of policy-compliant argument.
Newimpartial (
talk)
10:21, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
"Wikipedia does not determine if it is true that Molyneux is a white supremacist who promotes white supremacist conspiracy theories."Yes. But in BLPs truth matters. Which is why WP:LABEL clearly spells out that value-laden labels should only be used with in-text attribution, even when those labels are widely used by independent reliable sources. - 218.214.175.194 ( talk) 06:41, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
"Molyneux is far-right, white nationalist, promotes scientific racism and white supremacist views". These are the opinions held by the sources used to support those assertions. Shouldn't those opinions be attributed to those sources? It is currently being said in Wikipedia's voice. I'm not sure if that is proper. Bus stop ( talk) 06:27, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
To answer that question, I think we would first have to examine the reliable sources stating that Molyneux is not far right, white nationalist or promoting of white supremacist views. Are there any? Newimpartial ( talk) 14:39, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
But IP, we have no consensus here that 'white supremacist' for example is a 'pejorative' label in the sense meant by LABEL. Certainly there are many social scientists for whom 'white supremacy' reflects an objective social structure rather than a racist fan club or a demonized other. So please don't assume the thing you are trying to prove.
It is not the job of WP editors to re-litigate the labels that are used - uncontested - in Reliable Sources; also, your motivation in doing so reads a good deal more as IDONTLIKEIT than as seeking 'Truth', though the latter form of RIGHTINGGREATWRONGS is not any more compliant with policy than the former. So why are we discussing this again? Newimpartial ( talk) 11:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
As clearly explained in WP:LABEL, the pejorative, value-laden labels used in the lede should not be stated using Wikipedia's voice- you were the one invoking 'pejorative'. The actual text of WP:LABEL is in fact 'value-laden':
Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist or sexist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion... Again I say, 'white supremacy' or 'white supremacist' are terms that have clear denotative meanings in contemporary discourse and are not like 'terrorist' or 'freedom fighter' - the latter being terms that indicate the political positioning of the speaker with respect to the subject, rather than any attribute of the subject him- her- or itself. What is more, the pejorative terms
are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject- the guideline does not suggest that they not be used at all. Newimpartial ( talk) 15:09, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
"To equate 'seeking Truth' with having 'bad motives' is one of the oddest failures of WP:AGF I have seen.". Newimpartial instead of accusing me of
"One of the oddest failure of WP:AGF you have seen", maybe try rereading your own comment? You did not say I was 'seeking Truth' you said, and I quote,
"your motivation in doing so reads a good deal more as IDONTLIKEIT than as seeking 'Truth'". [Edit: I am not 'seeking Truth' and my motive is not ' WP:IDONTLIKEIT', or ' WP:RIGHTINGGREATWRONGS'. My motive is to build a better encyclopaedia.]
"the guideline does not suggest that they not be used at all."Nowhere did I say it does! But WP:LABEL does say that value-laden labels like cult, racist, sexist, extremist, neo-Nazi, fundamentalist, perverted, transphobic, homophobic etc. "are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." - 218.214.175.194 ( talk) 06:41, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
your motivation in doing so reads a good deal more as IDONTLIKEIT than as seeking 'Truth', though the latter form of RIGHTINGGREATWRONGS is not any more compliant with policy than the former. So why are we discussing this again?(emphasis added). In other words, both wrong-righting and Truth-seeking (versus Verifiability) are contrary to policy. I am not inpugning your motives, and your motives in this do not matter, because the path you propose is contrary to policy regardless of motive. For you to reply to this, as you did, with "please don't assume I have bad motives" is an irrelevant pivot, because I have already pointed out that whether you are Truth-seeking or DONTLIKEing is entirely of no consequence - you are proposing a criterion contrary to policy. Period.
"What you needed to prove, to have a policy-compliant argument, was that "white supremacist" is a "value-laden" label". [...] If such an argument were to succeed, then and only then would we need to attribute the label to specific Reliable Sources.". Wrong. As per WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE, what you need to prove is that "white-supremacist" (unlike "racist", "sexist", "extremist", "neo-nazi", "homophobic", "transphobic", "cult" and all the other value-laden labels listed in WP:LABEL) is not a value-laden label. If such an argument were to succeed, then and only then would you not need to attribute the label to a Reliable Source.
Thanks for your opinion, Nikolaiho, but "you lied" is not an acceptable comment per TPG and CIVIL, especially when attached to a diff in which there is no possibility that I lied. Thanks for making assumptions about my intentions, but I was responding only to their contribution, not to any assumptions about the the contributor. Perhaps you should strike through your comment where you impugn my motive or suggest that I am assuming bad faith, since I have done nothing of the kind. Newimpartial ( talk) 01:07, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
Molyneux's political views are not really comparable to shape of the Earth or holocaust numbers. The first is a question of empirical science, the second is a question of historical methodology as well as some empirical proof. For that reason, for wikipedia to have any credibility it has to go by peer reviewed academic sources. On the other hand, the sources describing Molyneux as a White supremacist are just journalistic sources, mostly left leaning media outlets (some super left leaning the SPLC). This article here seems to at least go against neutrality, as I don't see any conservative news journals labeling him a White supremacist.
With that said about the article's lack of neutrality, I do think White nationalist is fitting. He has said numerous times immigration from Black and Brown countries is a mistake because these are low IQ countries. And he has also said that he thinks it's largely because of innate genetic differences. Just watch his interview on the Rubin report, and he even made a video praising Poland for how White it was. "White supremacist" though, that's a tough one. When people get the idea of a White supremacist in their minds, they don't view a guy running an internet podcast talking about IQ scores. They think of KKK rallies or terrorist bombings of Black churches. Arch Hades ( talk) 21:40, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
"Low IQ countries"requires evidence. So what are his sources, exactly? This mostly stems from Richard Lynn's work in Mankind Quarterly and published via Washington Summit Publishers, which many, many better academics already poked holes before Molyneux got to it. Citing unreliable white supremacists for misleading/false white supremacist talking points doesn't make him less of a white nationalist. Presenting white nationalist ideas with a flimsy veneer of science doesn't make them less wrong, it just makes them pseudoscience, which we already knew.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 12 |
Roose, Kevin (2019-06-08). "The Making of a YouTube Radical". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.149.246.103 ( talk) 04:28, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Whipple, Tom (January 10, 2009). "The mother and son torn apart by web 'cult' that destroys families". The Times. Retrieved October 19, 201.
Ha, Tu Thanh (December 12, 2008). "How a cyberphilosopher convinced followers to cut off family". The Globe and Mail.
"Trapped In A Cult?". Channel 5.
Collins, Ben (5 February 2016). "Meet the 'Cult' Leader Stumping for Donald Trump". The Daily Beast.
Turns out they only need a handful of clickbait articles (which were written by their colleagues at the NYT, dailybeast, and the globally trusted and respected "channel 5") to permanently prove you're evil
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.149.246.103 ( talk) 04:29, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Some good information here about how Molyneux's views are received by professional psychology. The first one is already cited but only for residence, none of it's other information is present in the article. Particularly noteworthy is this quote from the College of Psychologists of Ontario, saying to Molyneux's wife that her "statements in support of deFOOing are not supported by current professional literature or consistent with the standards" of the college. As it stands the Family-of-origin (FOO) relationships subsection could use a more balanced perspective, and someone might as well add Molyneux's spouse (Christina Papadopoulos) to the infobox since apparently she was newsworthy. Have fun! Wk7sn ( talk) 03:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Are there any videos where he says it himself and/or says that he supports what those labels mean? 201.226.235.99 ( talk) 21:05, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
"It would be cruel to arouse false expectations, so I had better say at once that Molyneux does not succeed in his noble goal. He fails, and fails miserably. His arguments are often preposterously bad."would be cherry-picking, as well.
A glance at Stefan Molyneux’s subscriber count (650,000+) on YouTube suggests that he is a charismatic, persuasive and influential individual. A skilled propagandist and an effective communicator within the racist “alt-right” and pro-Trump ranks, his promotion of scientific racism and eugenics to a large and growing audience is a serious concern. Molyneux has been delivering “race realist” propaganda, based on pseudo-scientific sources, to his audience on an ongoing basis for over two years, and thus has encouraged thousands of people to adopt his belief in biological determinism, social Darwinism and non-white racial inferiority. Molyneux puts considerable effort into cloaking the practical implications of these beliefs across his media platforms.[1]
@ Grayfell, Dennisne, Zaathras
1) Dennisne comment "You are a biased unfit editor" - WP:PA Very inappropriate.
2) The one source Dennisne and Grayfell both agree on is the SPLC ( Dennisene states: "The SPLC is also unimpeachable, not because it's unbiased (it is), but because..." - Dennisne comment from above). I think Zaathras would agree to this also. On the SPLC article, it states: From roughly 2013/2014 to the present, the content of Molyneux’s output has become politically extreme, shifting from the Ayn Rand libertarian right (and from supporting Ron Paul in 2008) to the ethno-nationalist far-right, supporting Donald Trump ... By far the most disturbing aspect of his move to the far-right [2] - "shifting from ...libertarian right" to "ethno-nationalist far-right"
The SPLC article goes into detail about his "eugenics", "biological determinism", "white supremacy". It documents his association and collaboration with individuals and organizations that are "far-right", "neo-Nazi", involved with Holocaust denial, the KKK, and other undeniably racist and white supremacist individuals and organizations. Describing him as "right-wing", "far-right", "white supremacist" is an accurate representation from the source.
It describes him as an "ethno-nationalist", White Nationalist is describing him accurately frm the source.
Extremists often pull from multiple, sometimes seemingly opposite or contradictory philosophies to create an ideology. He might use ideas from "anarcho-capitalism", but that does not make him an anarcho-capitalist, any more than Hilter using ideas from socialism made him a socialist or Lenin using ideas from capitalism make him a capitalist. Additionally, just because someone calls themselves something or uses a label does not make it accurate. Hitler may have called himself a humanitarian and Lenin may have thought he was an advocate for the working class - this doesn't make it true. The preponderance of reliable sources documenting something is what matters, not the opinion of an editor or subject.. The SPLC documents what he has done and said, his associations and the causes he supports. It documents pretty clearly that his "anarcho-capitalism" is a means to an end, not the end itself.
SPLC article : [3] Since the one source everyone agrees is 'unimpeachable" and meets the standards of WP:RS is the SPLC and it clearly documents him as a racist, far-right, white supremacist/nationalist, neo-Nazi, these labels are appropriate.
Most of the of the other "sources" mentioned above do not meet WP:RS / WP:QUESTIONABLE
A separate issue would be is he also (in addition to the above) an "anarcho-capitalist"? what does "anarcho-capitalist" mean to Molyneux? and for what purpose does he use ideas from "anarcho-capitalist" ideology?
// Timothy:: talk 19:57, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
How about leaving out any labels, and simply saying "Stefan Molyneux is a Canadian podcaster and YouTuber who often speaks on philosophical and political topics." A section in the article could cover what the media says about him. 66.115.87.148 ( talk) 21:30, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
The SPLC is used extensively as a source on this encyclopedia and the general consensus among active editors is that the SPLC is reliable for its conclusions about extremist political groups and individuals, with attribution, as is the case here. Despite its occasional errors, there is no other organization that even comes close to the comprehensive research that the SPLC has done on organized extremism, hate and racism in English speaking countries, especially the United States. They have no credible rival and they will continue to be used as long as that consensus exists. The summary information regarding Molyneux cited to the SPLC is well-supported by many other more specific references in the article, and I see no evidence that their overall conclusions in this case are inaccurate. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:13, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
In my view...". Mr. Edit5001, with respect, that essentially invalidates your point. Personal opinions on sources do not matter.
Zaathras (
talk)
03:19, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
A news article that carelessly labels him as a white-nationalist alt-righter, just because he apparently made "islamophobic" tweets about Note Dame cathedral, without producing any evidence of such tweets, or how they were islamophobic.
Using said news article to introduce his wiki page with "alt-right white nationalist" is ridiculous. If he really is, the what on earth kind of a source is that.
This whole wiki page is a disgrace, made by someone telling lies to themselves, because they don't like a person. And of course it's protected, hey, but the vandalism still remains. Hansel Zweinhander ( talk) 08:19, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
The article currently states that his business was sold in 2000 but the link points to a sale in 2002 when then business was foreclosed according to the CDNX(now Toronto Stock Exchange). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.5.79.2 ( talk) 10:33, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
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there is no evidence to suggest stefan is a white supremacist or white nationalist. wikipedia has turned into a far left propaganda platform 216.158.244.243 ( talk) 18:43, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
There is a lot of discussion about the neutrality of this article above. I have inserted a POV heading. Please try to improve the article. I Please discuss why you think the article is neutral before removing the header. Thank you. Mike Young ( talk) 09:13, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
The first sentence has to go. The words "Far-right", "White supremacist" and "Scientific racism" are hardly neutral.
The article should talk about what he believes, rather than what cherry-picked sources say about him. I see nothing about the "non-aggression principle, peaceful parenting, anti-circumcision etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike Young ( talk • contribs) 04:34, January 17, 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for those comments. I will look at them and comment in the next day or so. I welcome additional comments below. However, we have not yet had a discussion about why you think this is a neutral article so please give others a chance to comment and do not remove the NPOV before a concensus has been reached. Mike Young ( talk) 22:37, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
LGBT Person wiki article, we can't call this lgbt person this, they prefer to be called this other thing. Right Ring Person wiki article, We don't care how they describe themselves we can only use biased sources that dislike this person. 2605:A000:1E02:E1C4:E53A:F4EA:B80:F536 ( talk) 06:23, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
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The information contained in Stefan Molyneux's wiki page that he is a white supremacist is the most ridiculous thing i've read in a long time. I challenge you to point out anything he has said or position he has taken that could remotely be considered "white nationalist" or "white supremacist". The simply fact of the matter is that he uses philosphy, reason, and evidence to challenge many of the long standing uber liberal views on society, to have conversations and further the discussion. Wikipedia should be ashamed of having this kind of outright lies on their site.
TlCottrell ( talk) 18:44, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
There are dozens of
reliable sources describing Stefan as a white supremacist. If you want to learn about the things he said that could be considered "white supremacist", I encourage you to take a look at those sources, which thoroughly explain it. I'm sure that Wikipedia editors can forgive you for describing this as an "outright lie", since we understand that not everyone may have reviewed the sources and checked what experts say on the matter.
Now, you may disagree with those sources, but your opinion
does not matter here. If you are confused by any of this, please consult Wikipedia guidelines.
BeŻet (
talk)
13:11, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Mr Molyneux has always denied being a supporter of "white nationalism", and he has never claimed that white people have, on average, higher intelligence than all other races. I think his interest in IQ is misguided (personally I believe that all an IQ test measures is the ability to do IQ tests - so I reject the idea that low I.Q. is the reason why some areas of the world are poorer than other areas), but his opinions are certainly not what this article presents as his opinions. Also the article violates the basic rules of fairness, by overwhelmingly citing the enemies of Mr Molyneux, there is no attempt to cite friendly and unfriendly sources equally - and I am told that Mr Molyneux has even been "locked out" of his own Wikepedia page, thus giving him no chance to defend himself. Wikipeia claims to be "fair" and also claims that "anyone can edit" - this article casts serous doubts on both of those claims 2A02:C7D:B41D:C800:487A:E896:D358:1375 ( talk) 17:18, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
It's completely irrelevant what Molyneux thinks he is, we are reporting what independent, reliable sources describe him as. BeŻet ( talk) 22:58, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Claiming that what he says is irrelevant is completely nonsensical when you are reporting on what he says, if a "reputable source" claims he says something, when there's primary evidence that he doesn't (I.E. multiple videos of Molyneux himself saying the opposite) that source should cease to be considered reputable. 80.233.52.40 ( talk) 17:49, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
References 2,4,6,7 should be removed as they are links to articles that don't reach the standards of a reference. (They reference events and statements with out supporting evidence) if they did I would suggest using those link instead.
Reference 3 should be changed to his SPLC page ( https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/stefan-molyneux) rather than just a link to the wiki page for SPLC once again this is NOT a reference Sntelmo ( talk) 21:25, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
Not sure when it changed but this page was more biased than it is now until very recently. It amounted to a character assassination and a one sided opinion of his views out forward by his political opponents. There has been a lot of popular media lambasting of him that has had a platform on Wikipedia. Moderated now but still negatively biased as per media. Stephan states his own views very clearly and supporters these with research and data. LiquidElk76 ( talk) 06:40, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Obviously I like him, that's why I'm defending him. But that doesn't mean I have my head in the sand. If you have evidence that he is racist, I'll accept it. That being said, I looked through the sources for the claims in the first paragraph of this article and they don't hold up to scrutiny. For example, the SPLC's article on him uses as an example a sentence he uttered on his podcast: “I don’t view humanity as a single species...” Now that seems inflammatory and racist, until you look at the context, which the SPLC cites and apparently they didn't listen to (or they did and they're hoping you don't). In the show, he's referring to the difference between evil psychopaths and the rest of us, not to people of difference races. That's just one example. Does anyone have an example that does show that he's racist?
I've been a listener of his for a while and haven't encountered a single piece of evidence that he's a racist or wants a white ethno-state. In fact, his beliefs contradict those accusations. First, he is an anarchist, which is about as far as you can get from supporting an ethno-state (because that would require a lot of government intervention). There are instances of him supporting border controls, but that's only because a welfare state exists -- as Milton Friedman said, "you can’t have open borders and a welfare state." Agree or disagree with him, if we assume that's true, then supporting border as a defensive measure while the welfare state exists is not supporting borders as an ultimate ideal. Molyneux is for the elimination of political borders as long as the government isn't intervening in other ways. Here's an analogy: if a slave get to vote on an overseer and one would beat him more and he votes for the one that beats him less, is the slave supporting slavery? Second, the claims of racism come mostly from calling him a supporter of "scientific racism," a term which is normally put in quotes to mock those who allegedly try to mask their racism with fancy scientific terms. Molyneux draws from conclusions from The Bell Curve and other scientists who show that the average IQ is significantly different for each race. And what IQ tests show is that white people are not the most intelligent, so he's not much of a white supremacist if he believes that whites aren't the most intelligent, that should be your first clue that the label is just slander. But, you might say, maybe putting whites somewhere in the middle of the IQ spectrum is just a ploy to make the racism more believable and as long as the blacks and mexicans are under whites that's good enough. Now we're entering pretty speculative territory, which would be cut by Occam's Razor unless you have great evidence. But, you might still say, even if he honestly believes that whites are somewhere in the middle of the IQ spectrum, isn't that sill racist against the races that fall under the middle? Let's define racism: it's the believing that one race is superior to another. Ask yourself: if you are smarter than one of your friends, does that make you superior to them? If you answered yes, then you're wrong because intelligence doesn't determine a human's value, it's only one factor of who we are. If you answered no, then it doesn't make sense to call Molyneux a racist based on him mentioning IQ research. But, you might insist, even if that's all true, why does he talk about IQ if not to denigrate other races? Because if societies operate on the wrong hypothesis that every race has the same average IQ, then large differences in economic success will lack the explanatory power of differences in IQ and the odds that the economic differences will be blamed on racism in the workplace will be much higher. The reason not many other people out there talk about IQ research is because so many people fail to understand that intelligence doesn't determine the value of a human and will try to destroy the career of anyone who talks about it. And this article is a perfect example of that misunderstanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CheckThatSpelling ( talk • contribs) 01:59, 3 April 2020 (UTC) — CheckThatSpelling ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
"Saying Molyneux is a white supremacist does not unjustly harm his reputation"? Bus stop ( talk) 15:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
"Molyneux's reputation [...] is in no way harmed by [Wikipedia] saying he is a white supremacist. [...] That is his reputation.This is your opinion and is disputed by many other editors. It is not an incontrovertible fact. - 218.214.175.194 ( talk) 06:41, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
Just to point out that that mangled quotation is essentially a violation of the
WP:TPG, as it reduces the quoted text to near-incomprehensibility. I didn't write the original, but a more reasonable excerpt would be Molyneux's reputation as a white supremacist ... is in no way harmed by saying he is a white supremacist
. In other words. Molyneux's reputation *is* as a white supremacist, not as anything else. You can certainly dispute this characterization as you like, IP, but obfuscating what others are saying so that you can pivot to another topic does not help you make any sort of policy-compliant argument.
Newimpartial (
talk)
10:21, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
"Wikipedia does not determine if it is true that Molyneux is a white supremacist who promotes white supremacist conspiracy theories."Yes. But in BLPs truth matters. Which is why WP:LABEL clearly spells out that value-laden labels should only be used with in-text attribution, even when those labels are widely used by independent reliable sources. - 218.214.175.194 ( talk) 06:41, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
"Molyneux is far-right, white nationalist, promotes scientific racism and white supremacist views". These are the opinions held by the sources used to support those assertions. Shouldn't those opinions be attributed to those sources? It is currently being said in Wikipedia's voice. I'm not sure if that is proper. Bus stop ( talk) 06:27, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
To answer that question, I think we would first have to examine the reliable sources stating that Molyneux is not far right, white nationalist or promoting of white supremacist views. Are there any? Newimpartial ( talk) 14:39, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
But IP, we have no consensus here that 'white supremacist' for example is a 'pejorative' label in the sense meant by LABEL. Certainly there are many social scientists for whom 'white supremacy' reflects an objective social structure rather than a racist fan club or a demonized other. So please don't assume the thing you are trying to prove.
It is not the job of WP editors to re-litigate the labels that are used - uncontested - in Reliable Sources; also, your motivation in doing so reads a good deal more as IDONTLIKEIT than as seeking 'Truth', though the latter form of RIGHTINGGREATWRONGS is not any more compliant with policy than the former. So why are we discussing this again? Newimpartial ( talk) 11:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
As clearly explained in WP:LABEL, the pejorative, value-laden labels used in the lede should not be stated using Wikipedia's voice- you were the one invoking 'pejorative'. The actual text of WP:LABEL is in fact 'value-laden':
Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist or sexist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion... Again I say, 'white supremacy' or 'white supremacist' are terms that have clear denotative meanings in contemporary discourse and are not like 'terrorist' or 'freedom fighter' - the latter being terms that indicate the political positioning of the speaker with respect to the subject, rather than any attribute of the subject him- her- or itself. What is more, the pejorative terms
are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject- the guideline does not suggest that they not be used at all. Newimpartial ( talk) 15:09, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
"To equate 'seeking Truth' with having 'bad motives' is one of the oddest failures of WP:AGF I have seen.". Newimpartial instead of accusing me of
"One of the oddest failure of WP:AGF you have seen", maybe try rereading your own comment? You did not say I was 'seeking Truth' you said, and I quote,
"your motivation in doing so reads a good deal more as IDONTLIKEIT than as seeking 'Truth'". [Edit: I am not 'seeking Truth' and my motive is not ' WP:IDONTLIKEIT', or ' WP:RIGHTINGGREATWRONGS'. My motive is to build a better encyclopaedia.]
"the guideline does not suggest that they not be used at all."Nowhere did I say it does! But WP:LABEL does say that value-laden labels like cult, racist, sexist, extremist, neo-Nazi, fundamentalist, perverted, transphobic, homophobic etc. "are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." - 218.214.175.194 ( talk) 06:41, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
your motivation in doing so reads a good deal more as IDONTLIKEIT than as seeking 'Truth', though the latter form of RIGHTINGGREATWRONGS is not any more compliant with policy than the former. So why are we discussing this again?(emphasis added). In other words, both wrong-righting and Truth-seeking (versus Verifiability) are contrary to policy. I am not inpugning your motives, and your motives in this do not matter, because the path you propose is contrary to policy regardless of motive. For you to reply to this, as you did, with "please don't assume I have bad motives" is an irrelevant pivot, because I have already pointed out that whether you are Truth-seeking or DONTLIKEing is entirely of no consequence - you are proposing a criterion contrary to policy. Period.
"What you needed to prove, to have a policy-compliant argument, was that "white supremacist" is a "value-laden" label". [...] If such an argument were to succeed, then and only then would we need to attribute the label to specific Reliable Sources.". Wrong. As per WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE, what you need to prove is that "white-supremacist" (unlike "racist", "sexist", "extremist", "neo-nazi", "homophobic", "transphobic", "cult" and all the other value-laden labels listed in WP:LABEL) is not a value-laden label. If such an argument were to succeed, then and only then would you not need to attribute the label to a Reliable Source.
Thanks for your opinion, Nikolaiho, but "you lied" is not an acceptable comment per TPG and CIVIL, especially when attached to a diff in which there is no possibility that I lied. Thanks for making assumptions about my intentions, but I was responding only to their contribution, not to any assumptions about the the contributor. Perhaps you should strike through your comment where you impugn my motive or suggest that I am assuming bad faith, since I have done nothing of the kind. Newimpartial ( talk) 01:07, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
Molyneux's political views are not really comparable to shape of the Earth or holocaust numbers. The first is a question of empirical science, the second is a question of historical methodology as well as some empirical proof. For that reason, for wikipedia to have any credibility it has to go by peer reviewed academic sources. On the other hand, the sources describing Molyneux as a White supremacist are just journalistic sources, mostly left leaning media outlets (some super left leaning the SPLC). This article here seems to at least go against neutrality, as I don't see any conservative news journals labeling him a White supremacist.
With that said about the article's lack of neutrality, I do think White nationalist is fitting. He has said numerous times immigration from Black and Brown countries is a mistake because these are low IQ countries. And he has also said that he thinks it's largely because of innate genetic differences. Just watch his interview on the Rubin report, and he even made a video praising Poland for how White it was. "White supremacist" though, that's a tough one. When people get the idea of a White supremacist in their minds, they don't view a guy running an internet podcast talking about IQ scores. They think of KKK rallies or terrorist bombings of Black churches. Arch Hades ( talk) 21:40, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
"Low IQ countries"requires evidence. So what are his sources, exactly? This mostly stems from Richard Lynn's work in Mankind Quarterly and published via Washington Summit Publishers, which many, many better academics already poked holes before Molyneux got to it. Citing unreliable white supremacists for misleading/false white supremacist talking points doesn't make him less of a white nationalist. Presenting white nationalist ideas with a flimsy veneer of science doesn't make them less wrong, it just makes them pseudoscience, which we already knew.