This article was nominated for deletion on 11 June 2023. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
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Solitaire is also a name of a game played with pegs and holes in the shape of a cross: perhaps the card game should be moved to Card Game, and an entry on Solitaire put here? Dave McKee
Or perhaps move the peg game to peg solitaire?
Shouldn't there be a list of card games for one here? 195.194.187.132 ( talk) 12:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
This article is primarily about one thing: the term "solitaire" as it relates to games.
OK, so it has a general meaning in relation to games: tabletop games played by a single person. But there isn't any real information here that relates to solitaire games in general. It's mostly little bits about the card subgenre and specific solitaire games - information that belongs in the respective articles.
As such, this article is redundant. Its only real purpose is to distinguish the various games that may be known as "solitaire". This is the purpose of disambiguation pages. Since we already have Solitaire (disambiguation), I just redirected this there. I can't see that anything has been gained by reverting my change.
Moreover, I changed Solitaire (disambiguation) to list the more specific uses that are given here. That has been reverted along with this. To what benefit? Somebody looking for meanings of "solitaire" is unlikely to be looking for an article with little information content like this one. They are more likely to be looking for peg solitaire or patience (game) - so why not just lead them there? Of course, they might be looking for information on solitaire games in general, but this article would need a major rewrite to fulfil that purpose.
As such, I remain inclined to cut out this middleman. — Smjg ( talk) 13:13, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Really? This statement seems to assume Windows operating system has had no cultural impact on the US culture. -- Bxj ( talk) 03:17, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Why did the article on Patience get deleted and redirect to Solitaire?
This Solitaire page is a stub without any references, yet the Patience page had References.
Terrible American centrism. Dlpkbr ( talk)—Preceding undated comment added 10:01, 31 December 2013
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Patience (game) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 10:01, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Solitaire (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 04:02, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
I've just reverted the deletions by User:Onceinawhile because they appear to be made in haste after his recent AFD request was turned down. I agree that the article does need improving, but that will entail expansion rather than reducing it to a skeleton, perhaps in the hope that another AFD will then succeed. Let's work together to improve Wikipedia. Bermicourt ( talk) 09:45, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
The history section must cover the scope of this article.
Whilst the deletion discussion showed clearly that there is no consensus on what that scope is, we can all be certain what it is not. It is not to create a content fork of card solitaire; which is what the history section that Bermicourt added back in is.
Note we must be very careful to avoid WP:SYNTH. If editors propose to present the history of peg solitaire and mahjong solitaire alongside the history of card solitaire, implying that it is one connected history, but without a source stating that it is one connected history, that would be a contravention of WP:OR.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 10:39, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
the word... itself [is] an encyclopedic subjector,
I propose to open an WP:RM to suggest renaming the article to One-player tabletop game. Per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Solitaire#Side discussion, it seems the only reasonable scope for a non-dictionary version of this article. It would include most Puzzles and List of board games#Single-player board games.
Is anyone aware of an alternative scope that could work for an encyclopedic article in this area? Onceinawhile ( talk) 16:16, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Bermicourt: reverted my update to the caption of the image as above with the comment rv good faith edit; this type of game is not specifically English, nor is it "peg" solitaire, just solitaire.
I see that there is much discussion on what game is called "solitaire" but until a decision is made, the articles should be consistent with themselves: the type of solitaire with jumping tokens as opposed to cards is currently in the article peg solitaire and the board layout depicted is called English to contrast with European or other layouts.
Considering the justification, would anyone, including Bermicourt, object to my restoring the caption?
Thanks,
cmɢʟee⎆
τaʟκ
11:25, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
See below a table summarizing the three possible scopes of this article. Please add or comment, as I propose to open an RfC to build consensus to identify what the scope of this article should be. Onceinawhile ( talk) 20:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Option | Scope | Sources |
---|---|---|
1 | The word solitaire | No sourcing of this topic outside dictionaries |
2 | All one-player tabletop games | Many sources available, but none with Solitaire as the title, as most one-player tabletop games are not commonly called solitaire (e.g. jigsaws, tangrams, 15 puzzle, Rubik's Cube, etc.) |
3 | All one-player tabletop games with the name solitaire in the title | No known sources with this scope |
Onceinawhile ( talk) 20:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
“Those of particular interest so far known to have been explored are detailed in Beasley's indispensable study of the game”) is a reference to John Beasley’s work specifically on Peg Solitaire (his terminology).
The article topic currently is games called solitaire. We don’t need to refer to the table to discuss the issue with this, which is that there are simply no sources which describe that scope.
Common solitaire games include video poker, Black Jack, Minesweeper, etc.)
Thinking about the "all one-player tabletop" games topic a little further, I think there are just three types:
An article about all of these types clearly does not work under the term Solitaire. Onceinawhile ( talk) 18:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
The result of the discussion is to convert Solitaire to a disambiguation page by moving Solitaire (disambiguation) to it. Given solid suggestions for what to do with the content, a mention of WP:PRESERVE, and no continued discussion around WP:AfD or deletion at all, there appears to be rough consensus that the history should not be deleted. In that context, there appears to be rough consensus that useful information be merged to appropriate articles before this becomes a disambiguation. Lastly, there is a note that this article's history should be history merged with Patience (game) to clear up an old copy/paste move. That seems prudent and meshes with the result, though consensus didn't develop prior to the discussion trailing off.
As a bit of analysis of the path the discussion took, this RfC was initially about the scope of the article. However the discussion quickly narrowed in on disambiguation, and there was nearly unanimous consensus for disambiguation in some form. All editors involved in the RfC either explicitly or implicitly eventually supported changing or redirecting this to a disambiguation page of some sort, and the discussion became about how to accomplish that correctly. As such, the above summary reflects the development of the discussion.
Note also, there was an editor involved in the above "Pre-RfC" discussion who did not join in this RfC and did not back the broad disambiguation option so that consensus was not truly unanimous.
( non-admin closure)— siro χ o 05:43, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
This article has been problematic for twelve years. Initially it had the scope of our current Patience (game) article. In 2011 an editor without consensus split content from here to create the Patience article, leaving a dictionary definition article stub at this title. [6] [7] [8] Since then there have been various attempts to fix it through discussion, notably in 2018, in 2019 and in 2023, all of which failed.
In this context, please comment on what the right scope for this article should be. Discussion so far (above) has been stuck between three editors with differing views: one who thinks the scope is "games called solitaire", one who thinks it is "all one-player tabletop games", and me who thinks it is currently about the term solitaire and thus should be at wiktionary. Note that after two months of discussion, no sources have yet been brought to adequately cover any of these three potential scopes, so editors bringing sources with their comments would be greatly appreciated.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 15:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Pre-reading. For editors joining the debate: it may help if you first read the preceding (2023) discussions. Bermicourt ( talk) 20:37, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
(Links are to Internet Archive and require free registration)
-- Random person no 362478479 ( talk) 20:12, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Solitaire (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 21:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 11 June 2023. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Solitaire page. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Disambiguation | ||||
|
Solitaire is also a name of a game played with pegs and holes in the shape of a cross: perhaps the card game should be moved to Card Game, and an entry on Solitaire put here? Dave McKee
Or perhaps move the peg game to peg solitaire?
Shouldn't there be a list of card games for one here? 195.194.187.132 ( talk) 12:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
This article is primarily about one thing: the term "solitaire" as it relates to games.
OK, so it has a general meaning in relation to games: tabletop games played by a single person. But there isn't any real information here that relates to solitaire games in general. It's mostly little bits about the card subgenre and specific solitaire games - information that belongs in the respective articles.
As such, this article is redundant. Its only real purpose is to distinguish the various games that may be known as "solitaire". This is the purpose of disambiguation pages. Since we already have Solitaire (disambiguation), I just redirected this there. I can't see that anything has been gained by reverting my change.
Moreover, I changed Solitaire (disambiguation) to list the more specific uses that are given here. That has been reverted along with this. To what benefit? Somebody looking for meanings of "solitaire" is unlikely to be looking for an article with little information content like this one. They are more likely to be looking for peg solitaire or patience (game) - so why not just lead them there? Of course, they might be looking for information on solitaire games in general, but this article would need a major rewrite to fulfil that purpose.
As such, I remain inclined to cut out this middleman. — Smjg ( talk) 13:13, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Really? This statement seems to assume Windows operating system has had no cultural impact on the US culture. -- Bxj ( talk) 03:17, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Why did the article on Patience get deleted and redirect to Solitaire?
This Solitaire page is a stub without any references, yet the Patience page had References.
Terrible American centrism. Dlpkbr ( talk)—Preceding undated comment added 10:01, 31 December 2013
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Patience (game) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 10:01, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Solitaire (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 04:02, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
I've just reverted the deletions by User:Onceinawhile because they appear to be made in haste after his recent AFD request was turned down. I agree that the article does need improving, but that will entail expansion rather than reducing it to a skeleton, perhaps in the hope that another AFD will then succeed. Let's work together to improve Wikipedia. Bermicourt ( talk) 09:45, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
The history section must cover the scope of this article.
Whilst the deletion discussion showed clearly that there is no consensus on what that scope is, we can all be certain what it is not. It is not to create a content fork of card solitaire; which is what the history section that Bermicourt added back in is.
Note we must be very careful to avoid WP:SYNTH. If editors propose to present the history of peg solitaire and mahjong solitaire alongside the history of card solitaire, implying that it is one connected history, but without a source stating that it is one connected history, that would be a contravention of WP:OR.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 10:39, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
the word... itself [is] an encyclopedic subjector,
I propose to open an WP:RM to suggest renaming the article to One-player tabletop game. Per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Solitaire#Side discussion, it seems the only reasonable scope for a non-dictionary version of this article. It would include most Puzzles and List of board games#Single-player board games.
Is anyone aware of an alternative scope that could work for an encyclopedic article in this area? Onceinawhile ( talk) 16:16, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Bermicourt: reverted my update to the caption of the image as above with the comment rv good faith edit; this type of game is not specifically English, nor is it "peg" solitaire, just solitaire.
I see that there is much discussion on what game is called "solitaire" but until a decision is made, the articles should be consistent with themselves: the type of solitaire with jumping tokens as opposed to cards is currently in the article peg solitaire and the board layout depicted is called English to contrast with European or other layouts.
Considering the justification, would anyone, including Bermicourt, object to my restoring the caption?
Thanks,
cmɢʟee⎆
τaʟκ
11:25, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
See below a table summarizing the three possible scopes of this article. Please add or comment, as I propose to open an RfC to build consensus to identify what the scope of this article should be. Onceinawhile ( talk) 20:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Option | Scope | Sources |
---|---|---|
1 | The word solitaire | No sourcing of this topic outside dictionaries |
2 | All one-player tabletop games | Many sources available, but none with Solitaire as the title, as most one-player tabletop games are not commonly called solitaire (e.g. jigsaws, tangrams, 15 puzzle, Rubik's Cube, etc.) |
3 | All one-player tabletop games with the name solitaire in the title | No known sources with this scope |
Onceinawhile ( talk) 20:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
“Those of particular interest so far known to have been explored are detailed in Beasley's indispensable study of the game”) is a reference to John Beasley’s work specifically on Peg Solitaire (his terminology).
The article topic currently is games called solitaire. We don’t need to refer to the table to discuss the issue with this, which is that there are simply no sources which describe that scope.
Common solitaire games include video poker, Black Jack, Minesweeper, etc.)
Thinking about the "all one-player tabletop" games topic a little further, I think there are just three types:
An article about all of these types clearly does not work under the term Solitaire. Onceinawhile ( talk) 18:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
The result of the discussion is to convert Solitaire to a disambiguation page by moving Solitaire (disambiguation) to it. Given solid suggestions for what to do with the content, a mention of WP:PRESERVE, and no continued discussion around WP:AfD or deletion at all, there appears to be rough consensus that the history should not be deleted. In that context, there appears to be rough consensus that useful information be merged to appropriate articles before this becomes a disambiguation. Lastly, there is a note that this article's history should be history merged with Patience (game) to clear up an old copy/paste move. That seems prudent and meshes with the result, though consensus didn't develop prior to the discussion trailing off.
As a bit of analysis of the path the discussion took, this RfC was initially about the scope of the article. However the discussion quickly narrowed in on disambiguation, and there was nearly unanimous consensus for disambiguation in some form. All editors involved in the RfC either explicitly or implicitly eventually supported changing or redirecting this to a disambiguation page of some sort, and the discussion became about how to accomplish that correctly. As such, the above summary reflects the development of the discussion.
Note also, there was an editor involved in the above "Pre-RfC" discussion who did not join in this RfC and did not back the broad disambiguation option so that consensus was not truly unanimous.
( non-admin closure)— siro χ o 05:43, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
This article has been problematic for twelve years. Initially it had the scope of our current Patience (game) article. In 2011 an editor without consensus split content from here to create the Patience article, leaving a dictionary definition article stub at this title. [6] [7] [8] Since then there have been various attempts to fix it through discussion, notably in 2018, in 2019 and in 2023, all of which failed.
In this context, please comment on what the right scope for this article should be. Discussion so far (above) has been stuck between three editors with differing views: one who thinks the scope is "games called solitaire", one who thinks it is "all one-player tabletop games", and me who thinks it is currently about the term solitaire and thus should be at wiktionary. Note that after two months of discussion, no sources have yet been brought to adequately cover any of these three potential scopes, so editors bringing sources with their comments would be greatly appreciated.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 15:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Pre-reading. For editors joining the debate: it may help if you first read the preceding (2023) discussions. Bermicourt ( talk) 20:37, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
(Links are to Internet Archive and require free registration)
-- Random person no 362478479 ( talk) 20:12, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Solitaire (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 21:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)