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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 09:44, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
One of the criticisms raised against software patents (and patents in general), is that it is extremely expensive to have a qualified patent attorney read through all potentially relevant patents and determine if a particular piece of software infringes any of them. The use of keyword searches helps, but since inventors can be their own lexicographers, there may be critical patents missed.
Is there anyone working on automated means for determining if a given piece of software infringes a patent? Any open source efforts? If so, I think at least a mention of these efforts would be an excellent addition to this and other patent articles.-- Nowa 10:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed this comment:
as it is more commentary than encyclopedic writing. -- Trödel 20:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Still this comment has a point. Part of the problem of "software patents" is that they do not form an unambiguous category. Hence the directive proposed by the EU referred to "computer implemented inventions", but that is not a proper category either, since basically it does not matter whether a particular invention is implemented in software or otherwise, e.g. in a hardwired circuit.
I wonder how I could write this issue without being blamed for publishing "new research". In one way or another, the huge variety of "software patents" ought to be addressed, if only in view of the many positions.
Anyway, the article is called "debate", which may leave room for other opinions
It is often said that "software patents" claim exclusive rights on algorithms, but actually they have the characteristics of "problem inventions" that serve to block competition without properly disclosing a solution. Rbakels ( talk) 12:16, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
something recent - http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061215131844340
Since the wikipedia article is not really up to date and its not really a well defined issue in regards to what software is, perhaps it should simple be removed. to use an analogy is to create an article debate as to whether or not we should have the hindu-arabic decimal system replacing the roman numeral system. Now wouldn't that be silly? Or how about whether or not the earth is the center of the universe? There was a time when it was up for debate but today we know the answer and its not an opinion, but opinions are exactly what this debate is and will remain until the facts of what software is are accepted, then there won't be a debate, nor this article. Unless its a who won what and that really would not be neutral.
After taking some time to try and work around the issue, I would like to argue against the maintaining of the majority of this article, and would take the side of removal of it or recreating it using a different focus. The main problem I see is based on the topic itself being turned into a discussion forum for various soapbox attempts. This is not necessarily saying that as an article overall it is not NPOV by expressing both sides, but that the article itself has degraded into an actual debate as opposed to studying the debate itself. There is a large chunk of this article which follows this pattern
This expresses both sides of the argument, but is in fact an argument itself. It is pushing forward many individual opinions for and against patents and not pulling back to the topic at large. I think this article may still have hope, but don't see large sections of "one side vs other side" as the answer. Instead I would propose that the article takes the form of studying debates and activities dealing with software patent law that has occurred in the past, with more research going towards laws that have changed due to these debates and how various countries have been influenced by the success or failures of the patent system implementations of other countries. Then again, NPOV#POV_forks implies that points of view on a topic should be handled in the main topic itself, and not be forked off into another, so perhaps the issue would be better summarized within the Software Patent article itself, where it may get a more concise, and less opinionated showing. Roadm ( talk) 06:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
PraeceptorIP ( talk) 20:33, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
The following speculation was introduced to the article by an anonymous user:
contesting all the patents purporting to apply to a single piece of software could take thousands of man-hours
I removed the speculation and others since it was unreferenced. None the less, can anyone cite a reference that provides data on what a patent clearance opinion typically costs for a significant piece of software?-- Nowa 12:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The article makes the assertion that software is merely an mathematical algorithm. Does that make this 1840 patent the first "software" patent? us 1700?-- Nowa 13:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The article states that one of the arguments against patentability of software is "The U.S. patent system has caused serious harm to small companies in the U.S.". I put a "citation needed" on this because I wasn't sure that this was actually an argument put forward by opponents to software patents. I wasn't questioning whether or not the assertion was true, just whether or not it was part of the debate.-- Nowa 11:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I added a {{NPOV}}.
The arguments FOR software patents are immediately followed by rebuttals. The arguments AGAINST software patents are immediately followed by explanations and elaborations.
Either rebutt in both sections, or elaborate in both sections.
I prefer the elaboration route myself, as rebuttals after each line make wikipedia look like a debaters club. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wcudmore ( talk • contribs)
OK, we need a decision on this page. Currently it's not tolerable. Do we put rebuttals underneath arguments or not? If we do, it should be done more systematically; if we don't, there's a lot to delete. 24.59.104.253 20:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Some of the rebuttals in the FOR section already exist as arguments in the AGAINST section, I suggest that all the rebuttals be rewritten that way and removed from the FOR section. If necessary the related points in opposite sections could reference each other briefly, i.e by inserting "(however, see...)" immediately after the explanation of the argument. Ecoffey 04:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The companion article to this one, listing important software patents, has just been nominated for featured list status. Please take a look, see how that article might be improved and leave comments. Let's prove that there can be at least one uncontroversial article on this topic! Thanks. GDallimore ( Talk) 15:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
It is not NPOV to quote the pro arguments first as it is a common media scheme to refer to the stronger party first (see news articles), that is why the article is biased. I would prefer a table, which also makes it look better. Podmok 23:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
"Organizations should be able to protect their intellectual property" is a non-argument. It assumes that intellectual property exist a priori. It is illogical. There is no patent without a patent system. Podmok 23:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
This page is largely twisted in its view point on software patents. Clearly, for instance every positive argument should not be softened with a negative statement with every negative statement left to stand on its own. The page should not be introduced with an article that attacks patentability and is presented as a fair and neutral analysis. Statements in the negative side are largely obvious exaggerations and unsupported, such as "The U.S. patent system has caused serious harm to small companies in the U.S," (have they, or maybe they have, this statement should be softened) "without producing any real value" (what is value, maybe products would be more neutral), "it is not possible to avoid patented technology, because no mechanism for avoiding patent-related risk exists" (licensing and insurance are obvious mechanisms not mentioned), "his is in large part due to the enormous number of micro-niches in the software field and the relatively limited number of examiners" (really? no, its due to the amount of patents being filed and the lack of funding in the USPTO right now), "Many leaders in the software industry" (really, who? many? how about some?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.40.175 ( talk) 18:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to have swung the other way, and is now in favor of software patents. Most pro-software-patent entries have reinforcement, while all the anti-software-patent entries have snide rebuttals. This article needs to be heavily reworked. I say remove the rebuttals from all viewpoints; let the opposite view stand on its own in the other section. Only supporting details should be listed below each entry.
Cjstone618 ( talk) 02:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Do you want sources to prove the fact (this article is not about facts) or do you want sources to prove the arguments in the debate (this is one argument in the debate).
One impressive demonstration of consequences of the imbalance of exclusive rights protection is documented in Softwarepatente: Programmierer in Sträflingskleidung (Upd.).
Gehring&Lutterbeck describe with reference to Shapiro 2000 the hold-up-problem, violating TRIPS Art 13.
Dr. Christophe Geiger emphasizes the need of balanced protection systems in the view of copyright. He proposes in 5. to view TRIPS in the light of the declaration of human rights. The cited source shows exactly that view of TRIPS.
My question is, what sort of reference do you want, to accept the reference in the article? The fact that it has a broad claim is an argument against its content, which gives to me the impression that you want to suppress this argument from the debate. The WIKI-article is about the debate "as such" (the cited sources contributes to the debate) not about the correctness of the arguments. Swen 09:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Amendement 4, Considérant 6, "(6) La Communauté et ses États membres sont liés par l'accord sur les aspects des droits de propriété intellectuelle qui touchent au commerce (ADPIC), approuvé par la décision 94/800/CE du Conseil du 22 décembre 1994 relative à la conclusion, au nom de la Communauté européenne, pour ce qui concerne les matières relevant de ses compétences, des accords des négociations multilatérales du cycle de l'Uruguay (1986-1994). L'article 27, paragraphe 1, de l'accord sur les ADPIC dispose qu'un brevet pourra être obtenu pour toute invention, de produit ou de procédé, dans tous les domaines technologiques, à condition qu'elle soit nouvelle, qu'elle implique une activité inventive et qu'elle soit susceptible d'application industrielle. En outre, en vertu dudit article, des droits de brevet devraient pouvoir être obtenus et il devrait être possible de jouir de ces droits de brevet sans discrimination quant au domaine technologique. Ces principes devraient donc s'appliquer aux inventions contrôlées par ordinateur, sans pour autant pouvoir porter préjudice aux intérêts légitimes des auteurs de logiciels vis-à-vis de l'exploitation de leurs oeuvres, comme le stipule l'article 13 des dispositions du traité ADPIC, puisque les programmes d'ordinateurs sont protégés par les droits d'auteurs en vertu de l'article 10 de ce traité." Justification: "Il est important de bien distinguer entre le régime de protection par le brevet s'appliquant aux inventions, et le régime des droits d'auteurs s'appliquant aux logiciels. Il est juridiquement impossible, en vertu des dispositions du traité ADPIC, que le régime du brevet puisse empiéter sur des domaines où le régime des droits d'auteurs s'applique déjà."
and
amandment 35, article 6, "1. Les droits conférés par un brevet délivré pour une invention relevant du champ d'application de la présente directive n'affectent pas les actes autorisés en vertu des articles 5 et 6 de la directive 91/250/CEE, et notamment de ses dispositions relatives à la décompilation et à l'interopérabilité. 2. Les Etats membres veillent à ce que, lorsque le recours à une technique brevetée est nécessaire afin d'assurer la conversion des conventions utilisées dans deux systèmes ou réseaux informatiques différents, de façon à permettre entre eux la communication et l'échange de données, ce recours ne soit pas considéré comme une contrefaçon de brevet."
Justification:
"La préservation de l'interopérabilité suppose la capacité, non seulement de pouvoir le cas échéant effectuer des opérations de rétro-ingéniérie pour déterminer les caractéristiques des protocoles et interfaces de communication avec lesquelles il s'agira de communiquer, mais également de pouvoir réaliser et commercialiser effectivement de tels produits interopérables."
"L'article 6.2, autorisé par l'article 30 des dispositions du traité ADPIC, est nécessaire pour empêcher de possibles graves distorsions de la concurrence sur le marché intérieur du fait que la mise sur le marché de produits interopérables constituerait toujours une contrefaçon des revendications d'un brevet."
"Le texte de cet alinéa 6.2 est la copie conforme de l'amendement 15 d'ITRE, repris en tant qu'amendement 20 de JURI, et adopté en première lecture sous une forme légèrement modifiée en tant qu'article 9."
Is that enough? --Swen 20:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Removing:
First, it just restates, in a very wordy way, the topic of the section. Second, the part about small incremental improvements is unrelated to the rest, and is a criticism of patents in general, not just software patents; if it belongs anywhere, it belongs in the "Trivial patents" section. Third, the last sentence contradicts the importance of the statement being made. Emotion chip disabled ( talk) 18:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
...is really annoying. If you're going to have a heading which announces list of particular arguments follows, I expect the list of arguments that follow to conform to that heading. I thought for a minute that perhaps double-tabbing meant it was opposite time but that formula is not held consistently either. Just segregate the damn arguments right, or else integrate them and put little "check" and "x" icons by them or something. But don't do it halfass. 75.5.101.19 ( talk) 23:45, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Or here's an idea, use the fortunately/unfortunately game: As in "fortunately software patents encourage public disclosure of an entirely different and important class of inventions. Unfortunately the stuff done in that category is all obvious, that's why programmers do it and not engineers". And so on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.5.101.19 ( talk) 23:58, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree this is annoying and misleading. In some cases the point is subtle and it's hard to tell which side of the argument a sentence supports. It appears someone of one view felt they needed to add rebuttal to simple stating of the opposing arguments, making this article read more like a IM conversation than an encylopedia. 93.97.25.15 ( talk) 17:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
This article contains a section entitled Ideas are not patentable, but this is not what the section appears to be about. The section seems to be about which ideas are patentable and which are not. Perhaps we could rename the section Certain ideas are not patentable? -- Schapel ( talk) 21:40, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I removed the first bullet pointed argument under this section because it was worded in such a way that it assumed the consequent of the entire debate over software patents- the economic consequences of software patents. Specifically it read:
Patenting software inventions promotes investment in research and development.[3]
This is a conclusion, not a supporting argument.
Furthermore, the cited reference is problematic. The cited reference, which appears on the WIPO site, is a brief, authorless, reference free, bullet pointed list. Authorless materials have a high bar to meet if they are to avoid failing the reliable sources test. A bullet point list, which merely states conclusions without argument or evidence, does not clear that bar. It certainly cannot be used as the basis for concluding the heart of the matter that this Wikipedia page concerns itself with.
The original author needs to reword the statement so as not to assume the consequent and gather some credible references, preferably from established peer reviewed journals which support his statement. See Wikipedia policy on indentifying reliable sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaydee000 ( talk • contribs) 16:08, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
Cited this section for Citation Needed since the page it links to is offline and when online was a page at an Office Depot website. Even if that page were still online, Office Depot is not acceptable as a credible reference for a statement of this kind:
"Patent lawsuits ....allow innovative small companies to build a market of their own or at least receive fair compensation for their investment unless they are presenting ".
Which again makes extremely broad and sweeping generalizations which are not themselves specific to software patents while citing decidedly unserious, non-referenced, anonymous sources. Entires have to make some attempt at meeting authoritative, encyclopedia-level sources and to be specifically about the subject of this article - software patents.
It does not serve the interest of the reader to import the broad arguments for patenting generally when this article is about the controversy of one specific area of patenting, software patents. This article can't take up the debate about patents generally without losing its focus and stated purpose which is to cover the software patent debate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaydee000 ( talk • contribs) 17:18, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
One entry under this heading read:
"Patents must disclose how to make and use an invention ..patents are only valid if the inventions they disclose were not known by the public prior to the filing of the patent application, or if the inventions were not obvious to those of ordinary skill in the art at the time the patent application was filed. This is the formal law, and a rule that if violated could lead to invalidation of a patent, so it is followed strictly by patent lawyers."
The final clause of which constitutes original research since it is not supported by the footnote. What's happened here is two different assertions, one a statement of fact, the other an opinion, have been placed together within the same sentence and given a single supporting reference. The supporting reference does not support both assertions; it only supports the first "This is the formal law, and a rule that if violated could lead to invalidation of a patent".
The second assertion is a statement about what does happen in the real world. Specifically, it assumes without proof that non-obviousness is always met just because non-obviousness is a requirement. But this point is what is debated- the other side claims software patents are in fact given for obvious elaborations of common software practice and therefore the patent office is failing to follow its own guidelines.
If the second clause is to be asserted as is, then a reference pointing to some meta-research or study of software patents specifically, which shows that non-obviousness is always met by such patents has to be presented as a supporting reference. Absent that study, this clause constitutes original research, without the research. In other words, it's just an unsupported statement about what does happen in the real world without offering any proof that the real world so conforms.
For this reason, the second clause has been removed. Jaydee000 ( talk) 14:19, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Moreover, the wording and conception behind this sentence is amateurish. There is no concept of "informal law" within law, there are only laws. The sentence, if it were stripped of unsupported references to non-obviousness, the errant concept of "formal law" and gratuitous references to known entities actions: "followed [by] patent lawyers", the sentence would read something like:
"Disclosure is a requirement upon patents and therefore software patents must meet the disclosure requirements".
Which is a non-debated fact about patents generally and applies only transitively to software patents. Since no one argues that disclosure is NOT required or disclosure is not provide by filing attorneys, the point is moot.
Barring further discussion, I will remove the sentence starting with "This is a formal law.." because it simply does not meet the standards required of encyclopedic writing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaydee000 ( talk • contribs) 14:15, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
GDallimore, please describe in detail what you mean in by saying: "... since the sources do not support the conclusions about patents" and also "and some fail verification altogether" Raymondjo ( talk) 22:28, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
This sentence: "Patents encourage competitors to research and develop new and improved inventions, as a means of avoiding the licensing fees and restrictions requirements that prior patent holders can impose" flagged as citation-needed by GDallimore:
I suggest that this is so obvious that it needs no citation. Of course, an entity that doesn't want to be subject to licensing or frees, is encouraged to find a newer way that doesn't rely on the patent. That point is even eluded by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent_debate#Cost_and_loss_of_R.26D_funds Raymondjo ( talk) 23:54, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
--Copied from my talk page--
Hi GDallimore, you reverted my change to the wording in the 'Software patent debate' article. In the sentence "Organizations should be able to profit from their intellectual property.", you changed the words 'profit from' back to the word 'protect'. Can you please clarify the meaning here of 'protect'? Michael9422 ( talk) 13:13, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
The line The basic principles of patent law were developed before computers were invented and have served the US for centuries should be re-written. Why is this written in such a blatantly US-centric way? Patents have been around for over 2500 years. What does a sentence about patents in one relatively new country contribute to the article? 101.169.101.17 ( talk) 04:11, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
The article references a great statistic from an economist article ... but the economist is quoting another article. I think we should be citing the original "study" instead of an article quoting the study
I can't find that study anywhere though! any ideas how to find it?
Below is the passage I'm talking about:
"For the U.S. the economic benefit is dubious. A study in 2008 found that American public companies’ total profits from patents (excluding pharmaceuticals) in 1999 were about $4 billion, but that the associated litigation costs were $14 billion"
15 "Patent medicine - Why America’s patent system needs to be reformed, and how to do it". Economist. Retrieved 2011-09-26.
Lansey ( talk) 18:13, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
In the section of arguments against software patents, under the Copyright heading, a sentence begins with "Patent protection shall confine exceptions..." Does anyone understand it? Can someone rewrite it so that it is comprehensible? Michael9422 ( talk) 02:03, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
This morning (European time) I added a section on "strategic patenting" - but it disappeared. Did I make a mistake or was it removed? If someone removed it, please tell me why. Rbakels ( talk) 12:53, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
"Patents can be invalidated if they lack sufficient detail." Why is this an argument in support of software patents? Is there any evidence that this promotes the progress of science or useful arts? J. Finkelstein ( talk) 21:11, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
This article is 90% about why software patents are bad. The title should be "Arguments against software patents (and those few lame arguments in favor)" Jytdog ( talk) 03:13, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
ツ Stacey ( talk) 21:02, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
One of the problems in presenting a NPOV is that the debate on software patents is not yet crystallized. That is not reason not to mention it in WikiPedia - an encyclopedia should answer questions users may have - and in this case, users should know that it is still controversial.
In my opinion, one of the problems on the software patent debate is that they are treated as a homogeneous category. My observation is that swpats are very different. Some are just as good as hardware patents, others violate basic rules, but the other patents do so as well. so the focus ougght to be on bad patents in general. Here the problem is that courts play word games with precedents because they don't have a clue about the actual merits or disadvantages of patents, and economists are not of much help either. Rbakels ( talk) 10:03, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Software patent debate article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 October 2020 and 16 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): BoPro774.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 09:44, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
One of the criticisms raised against software patents (and patents in general), is that it is extremely expensive to have a qualified patent attorney read through all potentially relevant patents and determine if a particular piece of software infringes any of them. The use of keyword searches helps, but since inventors can be their own lexicographers, there may be critical patents missed.
Is there anyone working on automated means for determining if a given piece of software infringes a patent? Any open source efforts? If so, I think at least a mention of these efforts would be an excellent addition to this and other patent articles.-- Nowa 10:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed this comment:
as it is more commentary than encyclopedic writing. -- Trödel 20:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Still this comment has a point. Part of the problem of "software patents" is that they do not form an unambiguous category. Hence the directive proposed by the EU referred to "computer implemented inventions", but that is not a proper category either, since basically it does not matter whether a particular invention is implemented in software or otherwise, e.g. in a hardwired circuit.
I wonder how I could write this issue without being blamed for publishing "new research". In one way or another, the huge variety of "software patents" ought to be addressed, if only in view of the many positions.
Anyway, the article is called "debate", which may leave room for other opinions
It is often said that "software patents" claim exclusive rights on algorithms, but actually they have the characteristics of "problem inventions" that serve to block competition without properly disclosing a solution. Rbakels ( talk) 12:16, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
something recent - http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061215131844340
Since the wikipedia article is not really up to date and its not really a well defined issue in regards to what software is, perhaps it should simple be removed. to use an analogy is to create an article debate as to whether or not we should have the hindu-arabic decimal system replacing the roman numeral system. Now wouldn't that be silly? Or how about whether or not the earth is the center of the universe? There was a time when it was up for debate but today we know the answer and its not an opinion, but opinions are exactly what this debate is and will remain until the facts of what software is are accepted, then there won't be a debate, nor this article. Unless its a who won what and that really would not be neutral.
After taking some time to try and work around the issue, I would like to argue against the maintaining of the majority of this article, and would take the side of removal of it or recreating it using a different focus. The main problem I see is based on the topic itself being turned into a discussion forum for various soapbox attempts. This is not necessarily saying that as an article overall it is not NPOV by expressing both sides, but that the article itself has degraded into an actual debate as opposed to studying the debate itself. There is a large chunk of this article which follows this pattern
This expresses both sides of the argument, but is in fact an argument itself. It is pushing forward many individual opinions for and against patents and not pulling back to the topic at large. I think this article may still have hope, but don't see large sections of "one side vs other side" as the answer. Instead I would propose that the article takes the form of studying debates and activities dealing with software patent law that has occurred in the past, with more research going towards laws that have changed due to these debates and how various countries have been influenced by the success or failures of the patent system implementations of other countries. Then again, NPOV#POV_forks implies that points of view on a topic should be handled in the main topic itself, and not be forked off into another, so perhaps the issue would be better summarized within the Software Patent article itself, where it may get a more concise, and less opinionated showing. Roadm ( talk) 06:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
PraeceptorIP ( talk) 20:33, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
The following speculation was introduced to the article by an anonymous user:
contesting all the patents purporting to apply to a single piece of software could take thousands of man-hours
I removed the speculation and others since it was unreferenced. None the less, can anyone cite a reference that provides data on what a patent clearance opinion typically costs for a significant piece of software?-- Nowa 12:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The article makes the assertion that software is merely an mathematical algorithm. Does that make this 1840 patent the first "software" patent? us 1700?-- Nowa 13:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The article states that one of the arguments against patentability of software is "The U.S. patent system has caused serious harm to small companies in the U.S.". I put a "citation needed" on this because I wasn't sure that this was actually an argument put forward by opponents to software patents. I wasn't questioning whether or not the assertion was true, just whether or not it was part of the debate.-- Nowa 11:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I added a {{NPOV}}.
The arguments FOR software patents are immediately followed by rebuttals. The arguments AGAINST software patents are immediately followed by explanations and elaborations.
Either rebutt in both sections, or elaborate in both sections.
I prefer the elaboration route myself, as rebuttals after each line make wikipedia look like a debaters club. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wcudmore ( talk • contribs)
OK, we need a decision on this page. Currently it's not tolerable. Do we put rebuttals underneath arguments or not? If we do, it should be done more systematically; if we don't, there's a lot to delete. 24.59.104.253 20:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Some of the rebuttals in the FOR section already exist as arguments in the AGAINST section, I suggest that all the rebuttals be rewritten that way and removed from the FOR section. If necessary the related points in opposite sections could reference each other briefly, i.e by inserting "(however, see...)" immediately after the explanation of the argument. Ecoffey 04:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The companion article to this one, listing important software patents, has just been nominated for featured list status. Please take a look, see how that article might be improved and leave comments. Let's prove that there can be at least one uncontroversial article on this topic! Thanks. GDallimore ( Talk) 15:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
It is not NPOV to quote the pro arguments first as it is a common media scheme to refer to the stronger party first (see news articles), that is why the article is biased. I would prefer a table, which also makes it look better. Podmok 23:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
"Organizations should be able to protect their intellectual property" is a non-argument. It assumes that intellectual property exist a priori. It is illogical. There is no patent without a patent system. Podmok 23:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
This page is largely twisted in its view point on software patents. Clearly, for instance every positive argument should not be softened with a negative statement with every negative statement left to stand on its own. The page should not be introduced with an article that attacks patentability and is presented as a fair and neutral analysis. Statements in the negative side are largely obvious exaggerations and unsupported, such as "The U.S. patent system has caused serious harm to small companies in the U.S," (have they, or maybe they have, this statement should be softened) "without producing any real value" (what is value, maybe products would be more neutral), "it is not possible to avoid patented technology, because no mechanism for avoiding patent-related risk exists" (licensing and insurance are obvious mechanisms not mentioned), "his is in large part due to the enormous number of micro-niches in the software field and the relatively limited number of examiners" (really? no, its due to the amount of patents being filed and the lack of funding in the USPTO right now), "Many leaders in the software industry" (really, who? many? how about some?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.40.175 ( talk) 18:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to have swung the other way, and is now in favor of software patents. Most pro-software-patent entries have reinforcement, while all the anti-software-patent entries have snide rebuttals. This article needs to be heavily reworked. I say remove the rebuttals from all viewpoints; let the opposite view stand on its own in the other section. Only supporting details should be listed below each entry.
Cjstone618 ( talk) 02:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Do you want sources to prove the fact (this article is not about facts) or do you want sources to prove the arguments in the debate (this is one argument in the debate).
One impressive demonstration of consequences of the imbalance of exclusive rights protection is documented in Softwarepatente: Programmierer in Sträflingskleidung (Upd.).
Gehring&Lutterbeck describe with reference to Shapiro 2000 the hold-up-problem, violating TRIPS Art 13.
Dr. Christophe Geiger emphasizes the need of balanced protection systems in the view of copyright. He proposes in 5. to view TRIPS in the light of the declaration of human rights. The cited source shows exactly that view of TRIPS.
My question is, what sort of reference do you want, to accept the reference in the article? The fact that it has a broad claim is an argument against its content, which gives to me the impression that you want to suppress this argument from the debate. The WIKI-article is about the debate "as such" (the cited sources contributes to the debate) not about the correctness of the arguments. Swen 09:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Amendement 4, Considérant 6, "(6) La Communauté et ses États membres sont liés par l'accord sur les aspects des droits de propriété intellectuelle qui touchent au commerce (ADPIC), approuvé par la décision 94/800/CE du Conseil du 22 décembre 1994 relative à la conclusion, au nom de la Communauté européenne, pour ce qui concerne les matières relevant de ses compétences, des accords des négociations multilatérales du cycle de l'Uruguay (1986-1994). L'article 27, paragraphe 1, de l'accord sur les ADPIC dispose qu'un brevet pourra être obtenu pour toute invention, de produit ou de procédé, dans tous les domaines technologiques, à condition qu'elle soit nouvelle, qu'elle implique une activité inventive et qu'elle soit susceptible d'application industrielle. En outre, en vertu dudit article, des droits de brevet devraient pouvoir être obtenus et il devrait être possible de jouir de ces droits de brevet sans discrimination quant au domaine technologique. Ces principes devraient donc s'appliquer aux inventions contrôlées par ordinateur, sans pour autant pouvoir porter préjudice aux intérêts légitimes des auteurs de logiciels vis-à-vis de l'exploitation de leurs oeuvres, comme le stipule l'article 13 des dispositions du traité ADPIC, puisque les programmes d'ordinateurs sont protégés par les droits d'auteurs en vertu de l'article 10 de ce traité." Justification: "Il est important de bien distinguer entre le régime de protection par le brevet s'appliquant aux inventions, et le régime des droits d'auteurs s'appliquant aux logiciels. Il est juridiquement impossible, en vertu des dispositions du traité ADPIC, que le régime du brevet puisse empiéter sur des domaines où le régime des droits d'auteurs s'applique déjà."
and
amandment 35, article 6, "1. Les droits conférés par un brevet délivré pour une invention relevant du champ d'application de la présente directive n'affectent pas les actes autorisés en vertu des articles 5 et 6 de la directive 91/250/CEE, et notamment de ses dispositions relatives à la décompilation et à l'interopérabilité. 2. Les Etats membres veillent à ce que, lorsque le recours à une technique brevetée est nécessaire afin d'assurer la conversion des conventions utilisées dans deux systèmes ou réseaux informatiques différents, de façon à permettre entre eux la communication et l'échange de données, ce recours ne soit pas considéré comme une contrefaçon de brevet."
Justification:
"La préservation de l'interopérabilité suppose la capacité, non seulement de pouvoir le cas échéant effectuer des opérations de rétro-ingéniérie pour déterminer les caractéristiques des protocoles et interfaces de communication avec lesquelles il s'agira de communiquer, mais également de pouvoir réaliser et commercialiser effectivement de tels produits interopérables."
"L'article 6.2, autorisé par l'article 30 des dispositions du traité ADPIC, est nécessaire pour empêcher de possibles graves distorsions de la concurrence sur le marché intérieur du fait que la mise sur le marché de produits interopérables constituerait toujours une contrefaçon des revendications d'un brevet."
"Le texte de cet alinéa 6.2 est la copie conforme de l'amendement 15 d'ITRE, repris en tant qu'amendement 20 de JURI, et adopté en première lecture sous une forme légèrement modifiée en tant qu'article 9."
Is that enough? --Swen 20:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Removing:
First, it just restates, in a very wordy way, the topic of the section. Second, the part about small incremental improvements is unrelated to the rest, and is a criticism of patents in general, not just software patents; if it belongs anywhere, it belongs in the "Trivial patents" section. Third, the last sentence contradicts the importance of the statement being made. Emotion chip disabled ( talk) 18:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
...is really annoying. If you're going to have a heading which announces list of particular arguments follows, I expect the list of arguments that follow to conform to that heading. I thought for a minute that perhaps double-tabbing meant it was opposite time but that formula is not held consistently either. Just segregate the damn arguments right, or else integrate them and put little "check" and "x" icons by them or something. But don't do it halfass. 75.5.101.19 ( talk) 23:45, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Or here's an idea, use the fortunately/unfortunately game: As in "fortunately software patents encourage public disclosure of an entirely different and important class of inventions. Unfortunately the stuff done in that category is all obvious, that's why programmers do it and not engineers". And so on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.5.101.19 ( talk) 23:58, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree this is annoying and misleading. In some cases the point is subtle and it's hard to tell which side of the argument a sentence supports. It appears someone of one view felt they needed to add rebuttal to simple stating of the opposing arguments, making this article read more like a IM conversation than an encylopedia. 93.97.25.15 ( talk) 17:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
This article contains a section entitled Ideas are not patentable, but this is not what the section appears to be about. The section seems to be about which ideas are patentable and which are not. Perhaps we could rename the section Certain ideas are not patentable? -- Schapel ( talk) 21:40, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I removed the first bullet pointed argument under this section because it was worded in such a way that it assumed the consequent of the entire debate over software patents- the economic consequences of software patents. Specifically it read:
Patenting software inventions promotes investment in research and development.[3]
This is a conclusion, not a supporting argument.
Furthermore, the cited reference is problematic. The cited reference, which appears on the WIPO site, is a brief, authorless, reference free, bullet pointed list. Authorless materials have a high bar to meet if they are to avoid failing the reliable sources test. A bullet point list, which merely states conclusions without argument or evidence, does not clear that bar. It certainly cannot be used as the basis for concluding the heart of the matter that this Wikipedia page concerns itself with.
The original author needs to reword the statement so as not to assume the consequent and gather some credible references, preferably from established peer reviewed journals which support his statement. See Wikipedia policy on indentifying reliable sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaydee000 ( talk • contribs) 16:08, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
Cited this section for Citation Needed since the page it links to is offline and when online was a page at an Office Depot website. Even if that page were still online, Office Depot is not acceptable as a credible reference for a statement of this kind:
"Patent lawsuits ....allow innovative small companies to build a market of their own or at least receive fair compensation for their investment unless they are presenting ".
Which again makes extremely broad and sweeping generalizations which are not themselves specific to software patents while citing decidedly unserious, non-referenced, anonymous sources. Entires have to make some attempt at meeting authoritative, encyclopedia-level sources and to be specifically about the subject of this article - software patents.
It does not serve the interest of the reader to import the broad arguments for patenting generally when this article is about the controversy of one specific area of patenting, software patents. This article can't take up the debate about patents generally without losing its focus and stated purpose which is to cover the software patent debate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaydee000 ( talk • contribs) 17:18, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
One entry under this heading read:
"Patents must disclose how to make and use an invention ..patents are only valid if the inventions they disclose were not known by the public prior to the filing of the patent application, or if the inventions were not obvious to those of ordinary skill in the art at the time the patent application was filed. This is the formal law, and a rule that if violated could lead to invalidation of a patent, so it is followed strictly by patent lawyers."
The final clause of which constitutes original research since it is not supported by the footnote. What's happened here is two different assertions, one a statement of fact, the other an opinion, have been placed together within the same sentence and given a single supporting reference. The supporting reference does not support both assertions; it only supports the first "This is the formal law, and a rule that if violated could lead to invalidation of a patent".
The second assertion is a statement about what does happen in the real world. Specifically, it assumes without proof that non-obviousness is always met just because non-obviousness is a requirement. But this point is what is debated- the other side claims software patents are in fact given for obvious elaborations of common software practice and therefore the patent office is failing to follow its own guidelines.
If the second clause is to be asserted as is, then a reference pointing to some meta-research or study of software patents specifically, which shows that non-obviousness is always met by such patents has to be presented as a supporting reference. Absent that study, this clause constitutes original research, without the research. In other words, it's just an unsupported statement about what does happen in the real world without offering any proof that the real world so conforms.
For this reason, the second clause has been removed. Jaydee000 ( talk) 14:19, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Moreover, the wording and conception behind this sentence is amateurish. There is no concept of "informal law" within law, there are only laws. The sentence, if it were stripped of unsupported references to non-obviousness, the errant concept of "formal law" and gratuitous references to known entities actions: "followed [by] patent lawyers", the sentence would read something like:
"Disclosure is a requirement upon patents and therefore software patents must meet the disclosure requirements".
Which is a non-debated fact about patents generally and applies only transitively to software patents. Since no one argues that disclosure is NOT required or disclosure is not provide by filing attorneys, the point is moot.
Barring further discussion, I will remove the sentence starting with "This is a formal law.." because it simply does not meet the standards required of encyclopedic writing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaydee000 ( talk • contribs) 14:15, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
GDallimore, please describe in detail what you mean in by saying: "... since the sources do not support the conclusions about patents" and also "and some fail verification altogether" Raymondjo ( talk) 22:28, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
This sentence: "Patents encourage competitors to research and develop new and improved inventions, as a means of avoiding the licensing fees and restrictions requirements that prior patent holders can impose" flagged as citation-needed by GDallimore:
I suggest that this is so obvious that it needs no citation. Of course, an entity that doesn't want to be subject to licensing or frees, is encouraged to find a newer way that doesn't rely on the patent. That point is even eluded by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent_debate#Cost_and_loss_of_R.26D_funds Raymondjo ( talk) 23:54, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
--Copied from my talk page--
Hi GDallimore, you reverted my change to the wording in the 'Software patent debate' article. In the sentence "Organizations should be able to profit from their intellectual property.", you changed the words 'profit from' back to the word 'protect'. Can you please clarify the meaning here of 'protect'? Michael9422 ( talk) 13:13, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
The line The basic principles of patent law were developed before computers were invented and have served the US for centuries should be re-written. Why is this written in such a blatantly US-centric way? Patents have been around for over 2500 years. What does a sentence about patents in one relatively new country contribute to the article? 101.169.101.17 ( talk) 04:11, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
The article references a great statistic from an economist article ... but the economist is quoting another article. I think we should be citing the original "study" instead of an article quoting the study
I can't find that study anywhere though! any ideas how to find it?
Below is the passage I'm talking about:
"For the U.S. the economic benefit is dubious. A study in 2008 found that American public companies’ total profits from patents (excluding pharmaceuticals) in 1999 were about $4 billion, but that the associated litigation costs were $14 billion"
15 "Patent medicine - Why America’s patent system needs to be reformed, and how to do it". Economist. Retrieved 2011-09-26.
Lansey ( talk) 18:13, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
In the section of arguments against software patents, under the Copyright heading, a sentence begins with "Patent protection shall confine exceptions..." Does anyone understand it? Can someone rewrite it so that it is comprehensible? Michael9422 ( talk) 02:03, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
This morning (European time) I added a section on "strategic patenting" - but it disappeared. Did I make a mistake or was it removed? If someone removed it, please tell me why. Rbakels ( talk) 12:53, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
"Patents can be invalidated if they lack sufficient detail." Why is this an argument in support of software patents? Is there any evidence that this promotes the progress of science or useful arts? J. Finkelstein ( talk) 21:11, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
This article is 90% about why software patents are bad. The title should be "Arguments against software patents (and those few lame arguments in favor)" Jytdog ( talk) 03:13, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
ツ Stacey ( talk) 21:02, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
One of the problems in presenting a NPOV is that the debate on software patents is not yet crystallized. That is not reason not to mention it in WikiPedia - an encyclopedia should answer questions users may have - and in this case, users should know that it is still controversial.
In my opinion, one of the problems on the software patent debate is that they are treated as a homogeneous category. My observation is that swpats are very different. Some are just as good as hardware patents, others violate basic rules, but the other patents do so as well. so the focus ougght to be on bad patents in general. Here the problem is that courts play word games with precedents because they don't have a clue about the actual merits or disadvantages of patents, and economists are not of much help either. Rbakels ( talk) 10:03, 25 June 2017 (UTC)