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By far the largest influence on skyscrapers is the use of metal frames. At the moment the History section is split by arbitrary years, and seems to be a very Americanised POV rather than the World View which Wikipedia requires. The split in the History section should not be between "Pre-19th century" and "Early skyscrapers", but between "Stone and brick" and "Early metal frames". Shrewsbury Flax Mill, a mostly metal-framed building from 1797, should be in the latter section, not the former. However I have refrained from being bold, since there is a whole separate article on "Early skyscrapers" (which again seems very Americanised), and that'd need refining to reflect the pre/post metal split rather than the current arbitrary split based on the American commercial revolution of the late 1800s. Damned colonials thinking they invented everything, bloody cheeky chaps, what rotters etc... Andrew Oakley ( talk) 13:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
There is a paragraph that is repeated verbatim in both the "Design and Construction" and "Environmental Impact" sections. Please decide in which section the paragraph belongs or split the content appropriately. I am replicating the paragraph below.
The amount of steel, concrete and glass needed to construct a single skyscraper is large, and these materials represent a great deal of embodied energy. Skyscrapers are thus energy intensive buildings, but skyscrapers have a long lifespan, for example the Empire State Building in New York City, United States completed in 1931 and is still in active use. Skyscrapers have considerable mass, which means that they must be built on a sturdier foundation than would be required for shorter, lighter buildings. Building materials must also be lifted to the top of a skyscraper during construction, requiring more energy than would be necessary at lower heights. Furthermore, a skyscraper consumes a lot of electricity because potable and non-potable water have to be pumped to the highest occupied floors, skyscrapers are usually designed to be mechanically ventilated, elevators are generally used instead of stairs, and natural lighting cannot be utilized in rooms far from the windows and the windowless spaces such as elevators, bathrooms and stairwells. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.198.106.158 ( talk) 08:09, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
These recent edits suggest steel replaced cast iron as a structural material due to its malleability allowing it to be formed into a variety of shapes, and it could be riveted, ensuring strong connections (emphasis added). However, I have seen many riveted cast iron structures with a wide variety of shapes still in use today (see Cast-iron architecture). I think this is much more to do with steel's malleability (and therefore strength under stress) than anything else. Cast iron is strong and heavy, but is particularly poor under tension stresses. Moving to steel allowed the removal of the additional bracing and sheer walls that these shortcomings with cast iron required, therefore allowing a stronger, lighter structure and therefore greater height. Perhaps a better wording and a better source could be used to clarify this bit if the article. Astronaut ( talk) 19:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Hey, shouldn't we just IP-ban that troll? No soup for you, and you, and you! 119.30.39.100 + 119.30.39.143 + 119.30.39.134 + 119.30.39.134 -- Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 04:45, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Seems like you've cut some valuable and verifiable information out of this page based on thinking it comes just from a "troll." A couple days ago, I read this page and it had this text: "Khan revealed that he often felt he himself was the building when designing a building". Why was this removed? It is found directly in this source, page 5 of this book: he http://books.google.com.bd/books?id=DI_nbAYQvqsC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA3&focus=viewport&vq=khan&dq=fazlur+khan%27s+legacy+towers+of+the+future&output=html_text
In fact, when looking back for this information that you deleted, I found the original quote, which is even better. “When thinking design, I put myself in the place of a whole building, feeling every part. In my mind I visualize the stresses and twisting a building undergoes.” The source for this is here: http://drfazlurrkhan.com/professional-milestones/en-r-constructions-man-of-the-year-issue-february-10-1972/
The poster who put this incredible and very valuable insight about Khan was accurate and their citation was correct. I think you've gone overboard in removing their contributions.
And your use of the word "retarded" is deeply offensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.27.114.64 ( talk) 00:51, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
@the Khan/IP guy: Sorry for me getting personal, but you're seriously making me go mad. You're constantly pushing all this unnecessary, bloated stuff throughout several skyscraper-related articles without any merit or relevance at all. And you're doing it for more than a year now. Please finally understand that's not how Wikipedia works. You seriously screwed this article with your constant repeating of very little information. -- Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 15:30, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Skyscrapers taller than 300m are also called Supertalls, those taller than 600m are called Megatalls, see official CTBUH definitions. I think we should create articles for these 2 categories, to give some insight of their development and current buildings at those heights. Cheers Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 15:33, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
In the section "Trussed Tube and X-bracing", there is a reference to the "Chase Manhattan Bank Building". This is shown as a link. However, if you click on the link, you are sent to an article about the Chase Manhattan building in Queens, not the Chase Manhattan building in lower Manhattan. I think the article is referencing the building in Manhattan. Bunkyray5 ( talk) 20:35, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
The very first sentence reads 'A skyscraper is a tall, continuously habitable building of over 14 floors...' but gives no citation for this, and never even references the 14 story figure again in the Definition section. In fact the Definition section says they just protrude from their environment, or gives a height/story range. Where does this absolute 14 story figure come from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.95.183.83 ( talk) 00:24, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
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There has been a 14+ year debate on whether the hobbyist websites are notable and warrant an article. The debate is typically poor citations vs a significant number of Wikipedia internal links. Merging the information on these two websites into this article (2-3 sentences) gives these sites some mention and provides a place for the more than 1,000 Wikipedia links.
SkyscraperCity was deleted this week (4th time). SkyscraperPage a smaller site, has the same problems.
I added the section Hobbyist websites and redirected the SkyscraperPage links to it. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 07:07, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
From my perspective, the number of times someone has added skyscrapercity.com etc. to a wiki article isn't a good indicator; we risk a circular logic! I'd normally be looking to see how reliable secondary sources treat the topic; do high-quality books etc. on skyscrapers talk about the websites and their impact on our understanding of skyscrapers? If they do, so should we; if they don't, we shouldn't. I haven't done an exhaustive search, but from what I can see, books and articles don't typically make mention of these two websites in that way. Hchc2009 ( talk) 17:08, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
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The article doesn't consider the city of Shibam, Yemen, built in the Middle Ages and one of the first places in the world to use vertical buildings in urban planning. Shibam, which is now a UNESCO World Heritage Site, owes its fame to its distinct architecture.The houses of Shibam are all made out of mud brick and about 500 of them are tower blocks, which rise 5 to 11 stories high,[2] with each floor having one or two rooms.[3] This architectural style was used in order to protect residents from Bedouin attacks. While Shibam has been in existence for an estimated 1,700 years, most of the city's houses originate from the 16th century. Many, though, have been rebuilt numerous times in the last few centuries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.55.45.5 ( talk) 17:25, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
An editor has removed material on future buildings, arguing that there are other, better lists for those. How-ever, I didn't see a cross-link to them. This is the first place to go for them, so if we aren't going to have them here, we definitely should direct the curious user to where we have lists or discussions about future buildings, abandoned projects, etc. Kdammers ( talk) 15:08, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
I notice that the tower in abu dubai is currently largest in the world. Anyone know if there's a tower currently being built that is supposed to be the tallest? Bulbbulb29054 ( talk) 01:51, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
This article makes reference to 10-20 story buildings as being early skyscrapers. To note there is an extremely high building in Belmont Ohio, located in Dayton, and it measures only 11 floors. This is one such example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:a000:dfc0:6:34b3:9637:3652:6f02 ( talk) 01:40, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
"Many buildings designed in the 70s lacked a particular style and recalled ornamentation from earlier buildings designed before the 50s. These design plans ignored the environment and loaded structures with decorative elements and extravagant finishes.[48] This approach to design was opposed by Fazlur Khan and he considered the designs to be whimsical rather than rational. Moreover, he considered the work to be a waste of precious natural resources.[49] Khan's work promoted structures integrated with architecture and the least use of material resulting in the least carbon emission impact on the environment.[50] The next era of skyscrapers will focus on the environment including performance of structures, types of material, construction practices, absolute minimal use of materials/natural resources, embodied energy within the structures, and more importantly, a holistically integrated building systems approach.[48]"
It doesn't say it directly, but from the wording it seems that it is painting the style of 1970s skyscrapers in a negative tone. Especially usage of "loaded" and the last sentence that speculates on the future does not have an encyclopedic tone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:84:8801:E500:0:0:0:EC8F ( talk) 21:22, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Do we consider a 30-40 underground floor and 15-20 above ground floor as a Skyscraper — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alnowaeam ( talk • contribs) 20:10, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
prominence to the 150 metre definition in the lead, with a note link explaining other definitions (100 metres). Giving 100 metres any more prominence is undue, given how little coverage 100 metres has in reliable sources as you have inadvertently demonstrated through the use of those sources provided. So, as opposed to no mentions of 100 metres, I'm open to notes. — MelbourneStar☆ talk 11:12, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
The current lede sentence provides the following definition of a skyscraper:
"A skyscraper is a continuously habitable high-rise building that has over 40 floors[1] and is taller than 150 m (492 ft).[2][3][4][5] [nb]"
Shall we not consider a 149 m (489 ft) building a skyscraper? This definition does does not reflect common usage, which, like the words big, old, tall and strong, do not have strict definitions. The encyclopedia britannica source provides a laxer definition:
"Skyscraper: very tall, multistoried building. The term originally applied to buildings of 10 to 20 stories, but by the late 20th century the term was used to describe high-rise buildings of unusual height, generally greater than 40 or 50 stories."
So I propose the following lede:
" A skyscraper is a continuously habitable high-rise building of unusual height, generally taller than 30-40 floors or 100-150 meters."
How would you feel if you read for Old age:
"An old person is someone over 65 years of age, according to the US census Bureau.[1][2][3][4]"
Certainly it's a rigid, inhumane take.
-- TZubiri ( talk) 21:30, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
@ Robynthehode: It is duly noted that the cited article is not a policy but an essay, in any case as per Wikipedia:Ignore all rules the difference lies not in their official status (of which no rule has) but on their approval by a certain vetting process, so you would be free to disagree with either. I'd like to call to notice to the claim that "if sources conflict we follow the expert sources not generalist ones" has not yet been sourced to a policy or essay, a link to one would be welcome.
A more interesting topic than Wikipedia bureaucracy is, do you disagree with the views espoused by the essay or their applicability to this case? It seems sensible to me, but I'm afraid it would be a dead end, as I find that it's hard to include both viewpoints without giving undue weight to the conflict, as the essay notes:
"If the issue is a simple matter of fact (e.g., a birth date) but cannot be resolved, this can be reported by presenting the apparently most plausible choice in the text while adding a footnote with the alternatives.
If the conflicting fact is of marginal encyclopedic interest, reporting on several views may lead to giving it undue prominence. A reasonable approach in that case would be to omit it entirely." So the conflict would remain about what point of view to relegate to a footnote, or omit entirely.
What I think might be helpful, since we are on the topic of guidelines, is WP:COMMONNAME. It suggests that, when there are conflicting definitions of an article title, the generalist definition should be used, not the expert definition. Suppose we have a dictionary entry that states that the general population may use skyscraper to refer to a building so high that it scrapes the sky, and a paper from a an architectural journal, that methodologically defines skyscrapers to be buildings between 50m and 100m, in this hypothetical scenario, according to the guideline, we should use the common definition, not the general one. -- TZubiri ( talk) 04:17, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Another approach.
I quote the full source in question: " A skyscraper is defined on Emporis as a multi-story building whose architectural height is at least 100 meters. This definition falls midway between many common definitions worldwide, and is intended as a metric compromise which can be applied across the board worldwide. The 100-meter cutoff for a skyscraper coincides with the cutoff for the Emporis Skyscraper Award."
" A skyscraper is defined on Emporis" in other words, " For the purposes of the Emporis database" , not even emporis claims that this is the official definition of a skyscraper. Furthermore they recognize that there are multiple definitions "falls midway between many common definitions worldwide". -- TZubiri ( talk) 21:57, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
Oh, I got them mixed up. Because I only found a reference for Emporis, I assumed that was the one you were basing the definition on. I see now that the heights are different, 100m vs 150m.
I couldn't find a reference by CBTUH, I only found a reference by theurbandeveloper.com that informally cites CBTUH (the hyperlink points to wikipedia). Could you please provide a direct source from CBTUH so that we can assess the context with which they define skyscraper and the reliability of the source? As it stands, there are 6 references in the lead sentence, and supposedly none is from THE most reliable source.-- TZubiri ( talk) 07:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Finally “skyscrapers” must rise to a minimum height of 150 metres (492 feet)." and "
150m is widely accepted as the height at which a building is to be considered a skyscraper."
And finally, the buildings more than 150 meters call skyscraper."
In the U.S. and Europe, the term skyscraper often refers to a habitable building taller than 150 meters. Some also use this term to include buildings taller than 100 meters."
References
There is a disagreement regarding the defintion of the term 'Skyscraper'; specifically the height value (and to a lesser degree the floor count value) attributed to this term. The extensive discussion has lead to a suggested definition (but no consensus has been reached on this) for the lede but the involved editors would like other editors to comment before a consensus is reached and the article lede is finalised. Robynthehode ( talk) 13:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
The main contention is whether to include a single height (and possibly floor count) value for the definition of skyscrapers in the lede or to include two different heights from the main sources. Numerous sources have been suggested but the two main ones are Emporis - gives 100m and Council on Tall Building and Urban Habitat (CTBUH) - gives 150m (although this is open to debate). Both sources are reliable but CTBUH, it is contended, is the most reliable. If you are an RfC editor commenting and would like clarification please ask otherwise please read some or all of the discussion above. Robynthehode ( talk) 06:22, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
skyscraper is defined as any multi-story building supported by a steel or concrete frame instead of traditional load-bearing wallsand describes the CTBUH as defining buildings as "tall," "super-tall," and "mega-tall" instead of "skyscrapers." This 2020 thesis uses the Emporis definition, but notes there is "no universally accepted definition for skyscraper." We should not be seeking to specifically define this term, either. SportingFlyer T· C 10:53, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
A skyscraper is a tall building containing multiple floors. In a modern context, a skyscraper is typically defined as a building at least 100 metres or 40 stories in height, though the word has no formal definition in terms of height requirements.I just want to make sure the opening sentence has a subjective definition, as this is factually correct. SportingFlyer T· C 12:49, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Each article in an encyclopedia is about a person, a people, a concept, a place, an event, a thing, etc., whereas a dictionary entry is primarily about a word, an idiom, or a term and its meanings, usage and history.This article is about a concept or a thing which clearly doesn't have a formally accepted definition. WP:NAD does not prohibit the definition of a concept or thing. Also, there's at least a reasonable argument the lede should not have been changed at all back in late 2017 - it was certainly not discussed on the talk page, and I would have reverted had I been following the page then. Furthermore, we're at RfC - other users will be allowed their opinion as well. SportingFlyer T· C 21:09, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Shall we try to work toward a 'definition' that other editors in this debate can agree with or not and move this to a conclusion. Thanks. Robynthehode ( talk) 10:14, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
"Also, there's at least a reasonable argument the lede should not have been changed at all back in late 2017 - it was certainly not discussed on the talk page, and I would have reverted had I been following the page then"SportingFlyer that's your opinion, everyone has one of those, and if I were editing the article at the time I would have exercised mine by supporting it. In the end, the lead was changed, remained unchallenged, and new consensus was formed. Quite an innocuous concept, indeed. — MelbourneStar☆ talk 10:42, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
I think we're we are still moving in circles. When user TZubiri asked two weeks ago for a source of policy or essay of Robynthehode's claim that "if sources conflict we follow the expert sources not generalist ones", he admitted that he can't find a specific use of this phrase. This is what i say from the beginning (and now also a fourth user SportingFlyer), it is very non-standard for me to eliminate relevant sources because someone say that some are most relevant. There was also no consensus on the changes in 2017. But to move forward, we agreed on the phrase: "..whose architectural height is at least 100 metres or 150 metres". SportingFlyer, from your October 13 17:58 post it seems that you could agree with this sentence, right? However, you require the first lax sentence and then in the next sentence mention of more specific description? Thanks for answer. Jirka.h23 ( talk) 08:00, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
theoryis often given as a quintessential example of where this can cause confusion, though there are numerous other examples. This is further complicated in this instance by the fact that expert sources in the field differ, though again this is hardly a unique issue (e.g. astronomers and planetologists each use different definitions of
planet). Geographical regions are another area where this can get messy quickly. The best we can do is try to explain and I think the current lead does a decent job of that, but I can understand the resistance to the current wording of the first sentence as being too proscriptive.Sticking with the current convention for the moment and my mind is certainly open to other options and outside the box thinking, this is what I came up with on the fly.
Skyscraper first came into use during the 1880s to describe....I haven't gone through all the sources yet (sorry I don't have much time on my hands atm and I have a few other Wikipedia tasks I said I would get to this week) I know there is a section below seeking to improve them, may be worth looking into some of the journals mentioned in the preceding section. Ideally all the information would be supported by academic references in the body which would obviate the need for their use in the lead (see LEADCITE).I would oppose restoration of the older lead though primarily for other stylistic issues than the definition. The mention of usages works better where it is than where it was and it's not necessary to define either supertall or megatall in the first paragraph. In fact,
megatallis still somewhat of a jargon term/neologism. While it should be mentioned in the body given it's occasional use by media sources, extensive use of it would breach the tone expected of an encyclopedia, and without extensive use in the body a mention in the lead can't be justified.As a general comment the lead could do with some fleshing out because as a summary of the body it's currently lacking. Jirka.h23, MelbourneStar☆, Robynthehode, SportingFlyer, TZubiripinging everyone because I kind of responded to all of you, if you think there's anything missing (it was a long discussion) or you have some other idea feel free to let me know thanks. 𝒬 𝔔 21:58, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
I don't have any problem with any of this, if not then submit your own proposal. It's also worth noting that the RFC has not yet expired and as close as the expiry is we should still still allow that new editors may see it and also want to join in. In addition, some of the other editors I pinged in my first comment have also yet to edit again and it would be polite to give them a little longer too, remember there is no deadline.I see this going two ways; either after giving everyone reasonable time to weigh back in, say a week or so, an existing proposal is accepted, or we start a new section like we discussed above and go from there. Also if your only objection to one of my proposals is minor (i.e. something that could be fixed with a copyedit) feel free to make the tweak and even if I don't have time to get back here next week you can assume it has my support, hope this answers your question. 𝒬 𝔔 16:00, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Neither "closing" nor "summarizing" are required.So if you want to put {{ closed rfc top}}/{{ closed rfc bottom}} around this just so other people know they don't need to read throught this wall of text that's fine but the RFC itself is no more or less official either way. 𝒬 𝔔 20:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
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References
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For claims that are supported by sources, I began verifying that the claim as written in Wikipedia corresponds to the claim written by the authors. In doing so I am explicitly adding the relevant quote to the reference section. This is especially useful for offline sources like "The visual dictionary of architecture", but in general it serves as a good editing exercise. I will post my progress below as well as stipulate some rules if anyone wants to join. The goal is to cover all 87 sources.
The project started on October 5th, at that date, the latest revision was September 21st, (URL https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Skyscraper&diff=982021152&oldid=979525214) the September revision will be considered the base, any sources added after that date will not be reviewed. Some references might be duplicated, or their order might change in the review process, in this case, reference numbers will refer to those used at the base revision.
During the first stage, the objective is to explicitly add a quote for a claim supported by the reference. I will not edit the article text in any way to avoid disputes and to simplify the task into chunks. This means that a quote and the claim might be different, this will be solved in a later stage. I will also not be removing references no matter what problems it may have, this will also be solved at a later stage.
In this section I will make a table of the references, each row shall have a number which uniquely identifies it, a short name that I the editor will refer it by (this does not need to coincide between editors), and a description of the task that have been performed on the reference or the state of the reference, at this point there are three states: quote added, and claim verified, or no action. Claim verified means that the quote was added by somebody else, and we verify that it corresponds with the claim. Finally, I add a note at the end if there's some extra work that needs to be done at a later stage. Notes are separated with two backslashes //
id | name | state | notes |
---|---|---|---|
1 | Britannica | Quote Added | |
2 | Dictionary of Architecture | Quote Added | Corresponds with 150m qualification, but calls it a general rule, and leaves it at the end of the definition. |
3 | urbandeveloper.com | Quote Added | Terribly written. Let's delete this. We are only using their quote that CTBUH and Emporis definition, let's cite that directly. |
4 | Skyscrapernews.com | Quote verified | Not a reliable source // Possible citogenesis, can't tell since they don't attribute the definition to anyone. |
5 | Emporis | Example | Let's note that they qualify their definition with "On emporis a skyscraper is:" . This should not be used for the lede sentence. Rather, it COULD be used in a sentence like "some standards define skyscrapers as buildings above 100 or 150 meters." |
6 | Ranking | No action | Not notable |
7 | blog | Quote added | Might not be reliable due to lack of peer review. It's itself cited so we can replace it with their citations, it even contains comment from cited autohrs. // Changed location closer to claim. // Claim does not fully correspond to quote, the article's claims that X was the first skyscraper, the article claims that no one knows which one was the first, but X is a great contender. It also does not propose that Y is the first skyscraper, just that it was the first with a steel frame. Will fix in later stage. |
8 | ante-bellum skyscraper | Quote added | Good article // Will probably reword the paragraph to bring claims closer to sources wordings, proto-skyscraper is good, but not actually used in the article// Relocated ref closer to claim. |
9 | not the first skyscraper | No action | Not an expert, can't exactly follow the argument being made. |
Comments are welcome. Feel free to continue with this project by creating a similar table, you can start where I left off (from 10) or you can verify 1 through 9 and add quotes from 10 onwards. I am myself not an expert on this topic and it's not my greatest interest, so help with this would be appreciated so I can work on topics better suited for me.
I generally feel that this is a more productive endeavour than our previous bikeshedding, perhaps after we complete a review of the existing refereces we will be in a better position to resolve the lede conflict.
There's 77 sources to go.
Regards, Tomás -- TZubiri ( talk) 19:52, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
![]() | The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a
worldwide view of the subject. |
By far the largest influence on skyscrapers is the use of metal frames. At the moment the History section is split by arbitrary years, and seems to be a very Americanised POV rather than the World View which Wikipedia requires. The split in the History section should not be between "Pre-19th century" and "Early skyscrapers", but between "Stone and brick" and "Early metal frames". Shrewsbury Flax Mill, a mostly metal-framed building from 1797, should be in the latter section, not the former. However I have refrained from being bold, since there is a whole separate article on "Early skyscrapers" (which again seems very Americanised), and that'd need refining to reflect the pre/post metal split rather than the current arbitrary split based on the American commercial revolution of the late 1800s. Damned colonials thinking they invented everything, bloody cheeky chaps, what rotters etc... Andrew Oakley ( talk) 13:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
There is a paragraph that is repeated verbatim in both the "Design and Construction" and "Environmental Impact" sections. Please decide in which section the paragraph belongs or split the content appropriately. I am replicating the paragraph below.
The amount of steel, concrete and glass needed to construct a single skyscraper is large, and these materials represent a great deal of embodied energy. Skyscrapers are thus energy intensive buildings, but skyscrapers have a long lifespan, for example the Empire State Building in New York City, United States completed in 1931 and is still in active use. Skyscrapers have considerable mass, which means that they must be built on a sturdier foundation than would be required for shorter, lighter buildings. Building materials must also be lifted to the top of a skyscraper during construction, requiring more energy than would be necessary at lower heights. Furthermore, a skyscraper consumes a lot of electricity because potable and non-potable water have to be pumped to the highest occupied floors, skyscrapers are usually designed to be mechanically ventilated, elevators are generally used instead of stairs, and natural lighting cannot be utilized in rooms far from the windows and the windowless spaces such as elevators, bathrooms and stairwells. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.198.106.158 ( talk) 08:09, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
These recent edits suggest steel replaced cast iron as a structural material due to its malleability allowing it to be formed into a variety of shapes, and it could be riveted, ensuring strong connections (emphasis added). However, I have seen many riveted cast iron structures with a wide variety of shapes still in use today (see Cast-iron architecture). I think this is much more to do with steel's malleability (and therefore strength under stress) than anything else. Cast iron is strong and heavy, but is particularly poor under tension stresses. Moving to steel allowed the removal of the additional bracing and sheer walls that these shortcomings with cast iron required, therefore allowing a stronger, lighter structure and therefore greater height. Perhaps a better wording and a better source could be used to clarify this bit if the article. Astronaut ( talk) 19:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Hey, shouldn't we just IP-ban that troll? No soup for you, and you, and you! 119.30.39.100 + 119.30.39.143 + 119.30.39.134 + 119.30.39.134 -- Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 04:45, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Seems like you've cut some valuable and verifiable information out of this page based on thinking it comes just from a "troll." A couple days ago, I read this page and it had this text: "Khan revealed that he often felt he himself was the building when designing a building". Why was this removed? It is found directly in this source, page 5 of this book: he http://books.google.com.bd/books?id=DI_nbAYQvqsC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA3&focus=viewport&vq=khan&dq=fazlur+khan%27s+legacy+towers+of+the+future&output=html_text
In fact, when looking back for this information that you deleted, I found the original quote, which is even better. “When thinking design, I put myself in the place of a whole building, feeling every part. In my mind I visualize the stresses and twisting a building undergoes.” The source for this is here: http://drfazlurrkhan.com/professional-milestones/en-r-constructions-man-of-the-year-issue-february-10-1972/
The poster who put this incredible and very valuable insight about Khan was accurate and their citation was correct. I think you've gone overboard in removing their contributions.
And your use of the word "retarded" is deeply offensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.27.114.64 ( talk) 00:51, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
@the Khan/IP guy: Sorry for me getting personal, but you're seriously making me go mad. You're constantly pushing all this unnecessary, bloated stuff throughout several skyscraper-related articles without any merit or relevance at all. And you're doing it for more than a year now. Please finally understand that's not how Wikipedia works. You seriously screwed this article with your constant repeating of very little information. -- Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 15:30, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Skyscrapers taller than 300m are also called Supertalls, those taller than 600m are called Megatalls, see official CTBUH definitions. I think we should create articles for these 2 categories, to give some insight of their development and current buildings at those heights. Cheers Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 15:33, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
In the section "Trussed Tube and X-bracing", there is a reference to the "Chase Manhattan Bank Building". This is shown as a link. However, if you click on the link, you are sent to an article about the Chase Manhattan building in Queens, not the Chase Manhattan building in lower Manhattan. I think the article is referencing the building in Manhattan. Bunkyray5 ( talk) 20:35, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
The very first sentence reads 'A skyscraper is a tall, continuously habitable building of over 14 floors...' but gives no citation for this, and never even references the 14 story figure again in the Definition section. In fact the Definition section says they just protrude from their environment, or gives a height/story range. Where does this absolute 14 story figure come from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.95.183.83 ( talk) 00:24, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
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There has been a 14+ year debate on whether the hobbyist websites are notable and warrant an article. The debate is typically poor citations vs a significant number of Wikipedia internal links. Merging the information on these two websites into this article (2-3 sentences) gives these sites some mention and provides a place for the more than 1,000 Wikipedia links.
SkyscraperCity was deleted this week (4th time). SkyscraperPage a smaller site, has the same problems.
I added the section Hobbyist websites and redirected the SkyscraperPage links to it. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 07:07, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
From my perspective, the number of times someone has added skyscrapercity.com etc. to a wiki article isn't a good indicator; we risk a circular logic! I'd normally be looking to see how reliable secondary sources treat the topic; do high-quality books etc. on skyscrapers talk about the websites and their impact on our understanding of skyscrapers? If they do, so should we; if they don't, we shouldn't. I haven't done an exhaustive search, but from what I can see, books and articles don't typically make mention of these two websites in that way. Hchc2009 ( talk) 17:08, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
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The article doesn't consider the city of Shibam, Yemen, built in the Middle Ages and one of the first places in the world to use vertical buildings in urban planning. Shibam, which is now a UNESCO World Heritage Site, owes its fame to its distinct architecture.The houses of Shibam are all made out of mud brick and about 500 of them are tower blocks, which rise 5 to 11 stories high,[2] with each floor having one or two rooms.[3] This architectural style was used in order to protect residents from Bedouin attacks. While Shibam has been in existence for an estimated 1,700 years, most of the city's houses originate from the 16th century. Many, though, have been rebuilt numerous times in the last few centuries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.55.45.5 ( talk) 17:25, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
An editor has removed material on future buildings, arguing that there are other, better lists for those. How-ever, I didn't see a cross-link to them. This is the first place to go for them, so if we aren't going to have them here, we definitely should direct the curious user to where we have lists or discussions about future buildings, abandoned projects, etc. Kdammers ( talk) 15:08, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
I notice that the tower in abu dubai is currently largest in the world. Anyone know if there's a tower currently being built that is supposed to be the tallest? Bulbbulb29054 ( talk) 01:51, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
This article makes reference to 10-20 story buildings as being early skyscrapers. To note there is an extremely high building in Belmont Ohio, located in Dayton, and it measures only 11 floors. This is one such example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:a000:dfc0:6:34b3:9637:3652:6f02 ( talk) 01:40, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
"Many buildings designed in the 70s lacked a particular style and recalled ornamentation from earlier buildings designed before the 50s. These design plans ignored the environment and loaded structures with decorative elements and extravagant finishes.[48] This approach to design was opposed by Fazlur Khan and he considered the designs to be whimsical rather than rational. Moreover, he considered the work to be a waste of precious natural resources.[49] Khan's work promoted structures integrated with architecture and the least use of material resulting in the least carbon emission impact on the environment.[50] The next era of skyscrapers will focus on the environment including performance of structures, types of material, construction practices, absolute minimal use of materials/natural resources, embodied energy within the structures, and more importantly, a holistically integrated building systems approach.[48]"
It doesn't say it directly, but from the wording it seems that it is painting the style of 1970s skyscrapers in a negative tone. Especially usage of "loaded" and the last sentence that speculates on the future does not have an encyclopedic tone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:84:8801:E500:0:0:0:EC8F ( talk) 21:22, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Do we consider a 30-40 underground floor and 15-20 above ground floor as a Skyscraper — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alnowaeam ( talk • contribs) 20:10, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
prominence to the 150 metre definition in the lead, with a note link explaining other definitions (100 metres). Giving 100 metres any more prominence is undue, given how little coverage 100 metres has in reliable sources as you have inadvertently demonstrated through the use of those sources provided. So, as opposed to no mentions of 100 metres, I'm open to notes. — MelbourneStar☆ talk 11:12, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
The current lede sentence provides the following definition of a skyscraper:
"A skyscraper is a continuously habitable high-rise building that has over 40 floors[1] and is taller than 150 m (492 ft).[2][3][4][5] [nb]"
Shall we not consider a 149 m (489 ft) building a skyscraper? This definition does does not reflect common usage, which, like the words big, old, tall and strong, do not have strict definitions. The encyclopedia britannica source provides a laxer definition:
"Skyscraper: very tall, multistoried building. The term originally applied to buildings of 10 to 20 stories, but by the late 20th century the term was used to describe high-rise buildings of unusual height, generally greater than 40 or 50 stories."
So I propose the following lede:
" A skyscraper is a continuously habitable high-rise building of unusual height, generally taller than 30-40 floors or 100-150 meters."
How would you feel if you read for Old age:
"An old person is someone over 65 years of age, according to the US census Bureau.[1][2][3][4]"
Certainly it's a rigid, inhumane take.
-- TZubiri ( talk) 21:30, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
@ Robynthehode: It is duly noted that the cited article is not a policy but an essay, in any case as per Wikipedia:Ignore all rules the difference lies not in their official status (of which no rule has) but on their approval by a certain vetting process, so you would be free to disagree with either. I'd like to call to notice to the claim that "if sources conflict we follow the expert sources not generalist ones" has not yet been sourced to a policy or essay, a link to one would be welcome.
A more interesting topic than Wikipedia bureaucracy is, do you disagree with the views espoused by the essay or their applicability to this case? It seems sensible to me, but I'm afraid it would be a dead end, as I find that it's hard to include both viewpoints without giving undue weight to the conflict, as the essay notes:
"If the issue is a simple matter of fact (e.g., a birth date) but cannot be resolved, this can be reported by presenting the apparently most plausible choice in the text while adding a footnote with the alternatives.
If the conflicting fact is of marginal encyclopedic interest, reporting on several views may lead to giving it undue prominence. A reasonable approach in that case would be to omit it entirely." So the conflict would remain about what point of view to relegate to a footnote, or omit entirely.
What I think might be helpful, since we are on the topic of guidelines, is WP:COMMONNAME. It suggests that, when there are conflicting definitions of an article title, the generalist definition should be used, not the expert definition. Suppose we have a dictionary entry that states that the general population may use skyscraper to refer to a building so high that it scrapes the sky, and a paper from a an architectural journal, that methodologically defines skyscrapers to be buildings between 50m and 100m, in this hypothetical scenario, according to the guideline, we should use the common definition, not the general one. -- TZubiri ( talk) 04:17, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Another approach.
I quote the full source in question: " A skyscraper is defined on Emporis as a multi-story building whose architectural height is at least 100 meters. This definition falls midway between many common definitions worldwide, and is intended as a metric compromise which can be applied across the board worldwide. The 100-meter cutoff for a skyscraper coincides with the cutoff for the Emporis Skyscraper Award."
" A skyscraper is defined on Emporis" in other words, " For the purposes of the Emporis database" , not even emporis claims that this is the official definition of a skyscraper. Furthermore they recognize that there are multiple definitions "falls midway between many common definitions worldwide". -- TZubiri ( talk) 21:57, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
Oh, I got them mixed up. Because I only found a reference for Emporis, I assumed that was the one you were basing the definition on. I see now that the heights are different, 100m vs 150m.
I couldn't find a reference by CBTUH, I only found a reference by theurbandeveloper.com that informally cites CBTUH (the hyperlink points to wikipedia). Could you please provide a direct source from CBTUH so that we can assess the context with which they define skyscraper and the reliability of the source? As it stands, there are 6 references in the lead sentence, and supposedly none is from THE most reliable source.-- TZubiri ( talk) 07:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Finally “skyscrapers” must rise to a minimum height of 150 metres (492 feet)." and "
150m is widely accepted as the height at which a building is to be considered a skyscraper."
And finally, the buildings more than 150 meters call skyscraper."
In the U.S. and Europe, the term skyscraper often refers to a habitable building taller than 150 meters. Some also use this term to include buildings taller than 100 meters."
References
There is a disagreement regarding the defintion of the term 'Skyscraper'; specifically the height value (and to a lesser degree the floor count value) attributed to this term. The extensive discussion has lead to a suggested definition (but no consensus has been reached on this) for the lede but the involved editors would like other editors to comment before a consensus is reached and the article lede is finalised. Robynthehode ( talk) 13:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
The main contention is whether to include a single height (and possibly floor count) value for the definition of skyscrapers in the lede or to include two different heights from the main sources. Numerous sources have been suggested but the two main ones are Emporis - gives 100m and Council on Tall Building and Urban Habitat (CTBUH) - gives 150m (although this is open to debate). Both sources are reliable but CTBUH, it is contended, is the most reliable. If you are an RfC editor commenting and would like clarification please ask otherwise please read some or all of the discussion above. Robynthehode ( talk) 06:22, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
skyscraper is defined as any multi-story building supported by a steel or concrete frame instead of traditional load-bearing wallsand describes the CTBUH as defining buildings as "tall," "super-tall," and "mega-tall" instead of "skyscrapers." This 2020 thesis uses the Emporis definition, but notes there is "no universally accepted definition for skyscraper." We should not be seeking to specifically define this term, either. SportingFlyer T· C 10:53, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
A skyscraper is a tall building containing multiple floors. In a modern context, a skyscraper is typically defined as a building at least 100 metres or 40 stories in height, though the word has no formal definition in terms of height requirements.I just want to make sure the opening sentence has a subjective definition, as this is factually correct. SportingFlyer T· C 12:49, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Each article in an encyclopedia is about a person, a people, a concept, a place, an event, a thing, etc., whereas a dictionary entry is primarily about a word, an idiom, or a term and its meanings, usage and history.This article is about a concept or a thing which clearly doesn't have a formally accepted definition. WP:NAD does not prohibit the definition of a concept or thing. Also, there's at least a reasonable argument the lede should not have been changed at all back in late 2017 - it was certainly not discussed on the talk page, and I would have reverted had I been following the page then. Furthermore, we're at RfC - other users will be allowed their opinion as well. SportingFlyer T· C 21:09, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Shall we try to work toward a 'definition' that other editors in this debate can agree with or not and move this to a conclusion. Thanks. Robynthehode ( talk) 10:14, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
"Also, there's at least a reasonable argument the lede should not have been changed at all back in late 2017 - it was certainly not discussed on the talk page, and I would have reverted had I been following the page then"SportingFlyer that's your opinion, everyone has one of those, and if I were editing the article at the time I would have exercised mine by supporting it. In the end, the lead was changed, remained unchallenged, and new consensus was formed. Quite an innocuous concept, indeed. — MelbourneStar☆ talk 10:42, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
I think we're we are still moving in circles. When user TZubiri asked two weeks ago for a source of policy or essay of Robynthehode's claim that "if sources conflict we follow the expert sources not generalist ones", he admitted that he can't find a specific use of this phrase. This is what i say from the beginning (and now also a fourth user SportingFlyer), it is very non-standard for me to eliminate relevant sources because someone say that some are most relevant. There was also no consensus on the changes in 2017. But to move forward, we agreed on the phrase: "..whose architectural height is at least 100 metres or 150 metres". SportingFlyer, from your October 13 17:58 post it seems that you could agree with this sentence, right? However, you require the first lax sentence and then in the next sentence mention of more specific description? Thanks for answer. Jirka.h23 ( talk) 08:00, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
theoryis often given as a quintessential example of where this can cause confusion, though there are numerous other examples. This is further complicated in this instance by the fact that expert sources in the field differ, though again this is hardly a unique issue (e.g. astronomers and planetologists each use different definitions of
planet). Geographical regions are another area where this can get messy quickly. The best we can do is try to explain and I think the current lead does a decent job of that, but I can understand the resistance to the current wording of the first sentence as being too proscriptive.Sticking with the current convention for the moment and my mind is certainly open to other options and outside the box thinking, this is what I came up with on the fly.
Skyscraper first came into use during the 1880s to describe....I haven't gone through all the sources yet (sorry I don't have much time on my hands atm and I have a few other Wikipedia tasks I said I would get to this week) I know there is a section below seeking to improve them, may be worth looking into some of the journals mentioned in the preceding section. Ideally all the information would be supported by academic references in the body which would obviate the need for their use in the lead (see LEADCITE).I would oppose restoration of the older lead though primarily for other stylistic issues than the definition. The mention of usages works better where it is than where it was and it's not necessary to define either supertall or megatall in the first paragraph. In fact,
megatallis still somewhat of a jargon term/neologism. While it should be mentioned in the body given it's occasional use by media sources, extensive use of it would breach the tone expected of an encyclopedia, and without extensive use in the body a mention in the lead can't be justified.As a general comment the lead could do with some fleshing out because as a summary of the body it's currently lacking. Jirka.h23, MelbourneStar☆, Robynthehode, SportingFlyer, TZubiripinging everyone because I kind of responded to all of you, if you think there's anything missing (it was a long discussion) or you have some other idea feel free to let me know thanks. 𝒬 𝔔 21:58, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
I don't have any problem with any of this, if not then submit your own proposal. It's also worth noting that the RFC has not yet expired and as close as the expiry is we should still still allow that new editors may see it and also want to join in. In addition, some of the other editors I pinged in my first comment have also yet to edit again and it would be polite to give them a little longer too, remember there is no deadline.I see this going two ways; either after giving everyone reasonable time to weigh back in, say a week or so, an existing proposal is accepted, or we start a new section like we discussed above and go from there. Also if your only objection to one of my proposals is minor (i.e. something that could be fixed with a copyedit) feel free to make the tweak and even if I don't have time to get back here next week you can assume it has my support, hope this answers your question. 𝒬 𝔔 16:00, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Neither "closing" nor "summarizing" are required.So if you want to put {{ closed rfc top}}/{{ closed rfc bottom}} around this just so other people know they don't need to read throught this wall of text that's fine but the RFC itself is no more or less official either way. 𝒬 𝔔 20:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
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References
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For claims that are supported by sources, I began verifying that the claim as written in Wikipedia corresponds to the claim written by the authors. In doing so I am explicitly adding the relevant quote to the reference section. This is especially useful for offline sources like "The visual dictionary of architecture", but in general it serves as a good editing exercise. I will post my progress below as well as stipulate some rules if anyone wants to join. The goal is to cover all 87 sources.
The project started on October 5th, at that date, the latest revision was September 21st, (URL https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Skyscraper&diff=982021152&oldid=979525214) the September revision will be considered the base, any sources added after that date will not be reviewed. Some references might be duplicated, or their order might change in the review process, in this case, reference numbers will refer to those used at the base revision.
During the first stage, the objective is to explicitly add a quote for a claim supported by the reference. I will not edit the article text in any way to avoid disputes and to simplify the task into chunks. This means that a quote and the claim might be different, this will be solved in a later stage. I will also not be removing references no matter what problems it may have, this will also be solved at a later stage.
In this section I will make a table of the references, each row shall have a number which uniquely identifies it, a short name that I the editor will refer it by (this does not need to coincide between editors), and a description of the task that have been performed on the reference or the state of the reference, at this point there are three states: quote added, and claim verified, or no action. Claim verified means that the quote was added by somebody else, and we verify that it corresponds with the claim. Finally, I add a note at the end if there's some extra work that needs to be done at a later stage. Notes are separated with two backslashes //
id | name | state | notes |
---|---|---|---|
1 | Britannica | Quote Added | |
2 | Dictionary of Architecture | Quote Added | Corresponds with 150m qualification, but calls it a general rule, and leaves it at the end of the definition. |
3 | urbandeveloper.com | Quote Added | Terribly written. Let's delete this. We are only using their quote that CTBUH and Emporis definition, let's cite that directly. |
4 | Skyscrapernews.com | Quote verified | Not a reliable source // Possible citogenesis, can't tell since they don't attribute the definition to anyone. |
5 | Emporis | Example | Let's note that they qualify their definition with "On emporis a skyscraper is:" . This should not be used for the lede sentence. Rather, it COULD be used in a sentence like "some standards define skyscrapers as buildings above 100 or 150 meters." |
6 | Ranking | No action | Not notable |
7 | blog | Quote added | Might not be reliable due to lack of peer review. It's itself cited so we can replace it with their citations, it even contains comment from cited autohrs. // Changed location closer to claim. // Claim does not fully correspond to quote, the article's claims that X was the first skyscraper, the article claims that no one knows which one was the first, but X is a great contender. It also does not propose that Y is the first skyscraper, just that it was the first with a steel frame. Will fix in later stage. |
8 | ante-bellum skyscraper | Quote added | Good article // Will probably reword the paragraph to bring claims closer to sources wordings, proto-skyscraper is good, but not actually used in the article// Relocated ref closer to claim. |
9 | not the first skyscraper | No action | Not an expert, can't exactly follow the argument being made. |
Comments are welcome. Feel free to continue with this project by creating a similar table, you can start where I left off (from 10) or you can verify 1 through 9 and add quotes from 10 onwards. I am myself not an expert on this topic and it's not my greatest interest, so help with this would be appreciated so I can work on topics better suited for me.
I generally feel that this is a more productive endeavour than our previous bikeshedding, perhaps after we complete a review of the existing refereces we will be in a better position to resolve the lede conflict.
There's 77 sources to go.
Regards, Tomás -- TZubiri ( talk) 19:52, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
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