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This article could easily become GA, with little work. Evan( Salad dressing is the milk of the infidel!) 18:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Why does this page give HMAS Sydney as 9000 ton but the HMAS Sydney (1934) page gives 6830t. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rubik3 ( talk • contribs) 03:12, August 21, 2007 (UTC).
This article says that the Sydney's guns were trained on the Kormoran, but the Kormoran page says that her guns were not trained on the raider. Which article is right? 74.103.98.163 00:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
As the title suggests this article should be about the battle. Therefore most of the text in the Attempts to find the wrecks section should be shifted over to HMAS Sydney (1934)#Searches. What do the masses say? Nomadtales 00:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
After its return from the Mediterranean, command of Sydney passed from the celebrated Captain John Collins to the relatively inexperienced Captain Joseph Burnett.
Many also found it difficult to believe that a senior officer like Burnett
Which one is it? Although this could mean that he was a Senior Officer, but a Junior Captain. Any clarification on this? Heirware ( talk) 06:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Under the 'Controversy' section a number of 'conspiracy theories' are mentioned. I don't believe any of these involve a conspiracy per se - the chain of events is simply unknown...no one is actively trying to hide the truth.
Because of this I have removed the word conspiracy from this section.
ahpook ( talk) 12:41, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't think "HSK" is a real prefix. Nazi Germany didn't use a prefix in front of their ship names. HSK is a suffix identifying the ship type. If there aren't any objections, I'd like to rename the article and then update it to remove the HSK prefixes. TomTheHand ( talk) 21:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
For the record, the Australian War Memorial site that is used as a footnote in this article uses no prefix for Kormoran. -- Mat Hardy (Affentitten) ( talk) 01:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
<---
The article is not clear on what happened to the Chinese POWs. One would presume that given they were prisoners of the enemy and part of a force fighting against the Axis who would become part of the Allies in about a month that they would have been released but this is not clear from the article Nil Einne ( talk) 16:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
It's not even clear about whose prisoners they were -- i.e. were they POWs of the Germans who were liberated by the Australians, or did they become POWs along with the German crew? As Nil alludes to above, the common assumption is likely that, because China was considered an Ally of the war, that they were German POWs. However, China itself wasn't at war with Germany, and in fact China received Western military training and equipment from Germany at the time. So it could really go either way. Ham Pastrami ( talk) 12:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Four Chinese crew members of the Eurylochus were hired by Detmers after Kormoran sank that ship in January, 1941. Each of them signed a contract as a civilian laundryman, so they were definitely no PoWs. The Chinese were to be paid after the return to Germany and received the same food and cigarette rations on Kormoran as the Kriegsmarine sailors. The fate of these men is also just another proof against the outrageous conspiracy theories of some unrelenting German-haters who still claim that Australian survivors were machine-gunned in the water, because the Chinese would have been unwelcome witnesses who either would have been killed by the imaginary Nazi murderers or would have revealed the ostensible crime to the Allied authorities. Reibeisen 21:46, 5 April 2008
The Further Reading section includes at least one document that was cited in line, which to my understanding makes it a 'Reference'. For those who have contributed to this article far more than I, are other items in Further Reading in the same situation? If so, they too should be in a References sections, and the current References & Notes section renamed Notes. This would give us Notes for citations, References for works used to provide citations or general sourcing, and Further Reading for documents not used as references but which are known to be related to this subject, or whose range extends well beyond this particular subject – though looking at the titles of the works currently under Further Reading, I suspect all may in fact be References. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 18:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
This article states in one place that the Sydney carried a Supermarine Walrus, and another that it was a Supermarine Seagull.
I don't know which is correct. However it also states the aircraft was operated by the 9th Squadron, which had Walrus's, and the 101st had Seagulls.
Respectfully.... 122.57.87.188 ( talk) 07:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I suppose it should now be "Battle of Dirk Hartog Island" or "Battle of Steep Point", but we should not be in the business of coining neologisms and I don't think there is a strict rule about how the naming feature of naval battles is decided(?) After all, some are named after geographical features a long way from where they took place (e.g. Battle of Makassar Strait). Grant | Talk 13:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This battle is referred to in a number of sources as the Battle of Carnarvon. Indeed the current title seems clumsy as such I propose to move it. Anotherclown ( talk) 17:37, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
1. HMAS Sydney spotted Kormoran at a distance but permitted itself to be lured within range of the Kormoran's guns, instead of staying out of range and sinking it.
2. Most of the Kormoran crew survived but not the Sydney crew.
3. The government, which has spent $3.9 million on the search, has appointed a retired judge to hold an inquiry into the new evidence. ENDQUOTE http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080404/ap_on_re_au_an/australia_wreck_mystery_1
QUOTE 5. According to the crew of Kormoran, the Australian warship did not appear to be fully prepared for the battle—her main guns were trained on Kormoran, but her secondary guns were unmanned.
6. The volume of hits that Sydney had now sustained along both sides of her superstructure and the resulting fires would have seen the almost complete destruction of her lifeboats and rafts. ENDQUOTE [So naturally none of the crew aboard HMAS Sydney survived].
QUOTE In Australia, many found it difficult to believe that a converted merchant ship could sink a modern light cruiser. Many also found it difficult to believe that a senior officer like Burnett took his ship within 1,000 metres (1,100 yd) of an unidentified and possibly dangerous vessel during wartime, without preparing for action and with such disastrous results. ENDQUOTE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_between_HMAS_Sydney_and_German_auxiliary_cruiser_Kormoran
So, it looks like the Captain of the HMAS Sydney lost the ship due to his own errors: he got too close to the enemy and he failed to man all his guns. Had he survived the battle, we might expect that he would be subject to court martial for losing his ship and his entire crew due to his own errors. Could this be why the government appointed a retired judge to hold an inquiry? Is there a specific section of the Australian Navy Code that the captain violated? These questions are very important because the honor of the German captain and crew of the Kormoran has been questioned and they have been condemned for war crimes. But it begins to look as though they were honest all along. The real problem has been that the Australians would prefer to allege war crimes than face up to the fact that the captain of HMAS Sydney was incompetant and was guilty of a gross dereliction of his duty to his ship and her crew. rumjal 05:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I added a couple of sentences about the lifeboats being found. This was then removed with the comment that such information just belonged in the search for Sydney article. I dispute that because the discovery of the lifeboats sheds some light on the final hours of the Sydney, which is the subject of the latter part of the article. The 'mystery' of Sydney and anything which 'explains' it is germane to this article. -- Mat Hardy ( talk) 23:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed this from the article as they are only allegations made as far as I am aware, are by one or two (uncited) newspapers and fringe theorists. Such allegations need to come from serious scholars of the incident rather than a newspaper hack sensationalising a story. — Moondyne click! 04:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I realise I could be getting into original research here. However it is possible that the disparity between the two ships was not as great as some have assumed. The Sydney's main armament consisted of 8 152 mm guns, Kormoran's consisted of 6 150 mm guns, that is not a great disparity. Kormoran was not comparable to a normal warship more in areas like lack of armour and lower speed. However this was not a normal battle, like night fighting at sea it depended on "The instantaneous production of the maximum output". So it's maybe not surprising that the 2 ships sank each other. PatGallacher ( talk) 15:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I didn't realise until recently that there were Chinese POWs aboard Kormoran. They might not have seen much, but what sort of account did they give? PatGallacher ( talk) 19:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The page was recently moved to 'Battle between HMAS Sydney and Kormoran'. I moved it back. It's our convention in these cases to add a prefix or preceding qualifier. This is doubly important in this case because as written it can seem to stand for Battle between Her Majesty's Australian Ships Sydney and Kormoran. i.e. the German auxiliary cruiser is necessary to distinguish at the very least the differing nationalities. I'm open to explanations for the move though? Benea ( talk) 20:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I have a problem with it being a German victory. How was it? Both ships were lost. What psychological victory are we talking about? Nothing much is mentioned about this in the article. As there were not any survivors from Sydney, and not a single soul saw her go down (well living soul anyway), how can it be claimed she was sunk by the Kormoran. For all we know she might have hit a mine! Dapi89 ( talk) 11:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
It depends how you define victory. It still was not a clear victory. At the most it would have been a Pyrrhic victory, after all the German vessel was sunk as well. Dapi89 ( talk) 16:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
BTW, it should read sunk. The ships were not "lost". It is even more inappropriate now that Sydney has been found. Dapi89 ( talk) 16:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
If the result is to be restored, and the assertion that it was in part a psychological victory kept in, I believe the information in the article alleging this "shock" should be cited. At the moment it is devoid of any accreditation. Dapi89 ( talk) 18:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
How can this engagement be anything other than a German victory? Sure, both ships sunk, but in every respect the Germans came out on top. Sydney was a cruiser, very much superior to the German Q-ship. That's the scales tilted in the German favour, right there. The Germans survived, albeit in captivity, whilst Sydney's crew all died. That was a huge loss to the RAN - there is nothing else that comes close, when considering the list of names in the AWM. -- Pete ( talk) 18:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The point made about the disparity in capabilities is a good one. But I wonder whether the German crew regarded this as a victory. Spending six years in POW camp and failing to destroy more merchant vessels, which was their primary task, was not really that victorious. Bismarck sank Hood, but you wouldn't call the operation a success because Bismarck was brought to heel herself, and she didn't fulfill her assigned task. Anyway, it seems I am outnumbered, so I guess "the motion" is denied. Dapi89 ( talk) 16:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
How about Pyrrhic victory? I could deal with that. Dapi89 ( talk) 18:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Even if Sydney had been able to make port after the battle, it seems likely that most of its crew would have been dead and/or it would have taken years to repair (if the recovery of her sister, HMAS Hobart (1939), from a Japanese torpedo strike is anything to go by).
I look at it this way: Kormoran was equivalent to an army special forces unit, i.e. it was intended to operate behind enemy lines, against targets of opportunity, and with a high risk of destruction or capture. For such a unit to engage a regular enemy unit of greater strength, in enemy territory, and destroy it, represents a victory, regardless of the fact that said special forces unit is captured. (That is why, for instance, St. Nazaire Raid is described as a British victory, even though more than nine tenths of the British force was killed or captured.) Grant | Talk 00:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
The ANZAC Day Press coverage reveals some gross misconceptions about the significance of the battle. Several articles quoted politicians or family members of the Sydney crew with remarks like "They didn't die in vain, by sinking the Kormoran they saved so many other lives" or "We now live in a better world because of their sacrifice" (Kevin Rudd). Fact is, the loss of the two ships was totally insignificant for both sides. All together, the pathetic little fleet of the nine German Hilfskreuzer sunk less ships than certain U-Boote alone, while Sydney could well have suffered the fate of Perth or Canberra if she survived into 1942. Also, the sinking of the 11 ships attacked by Kormoran during her career only cost a mere dozen lives, so she could have cruised on until the war's end and still would have killed only a fraction of Sydney's complement. For all concerned, it would have been better if both ships had never met, and the battle was neither the glorious victory of David against Goliath the Kriegsmarine claimed it to be nor the great heroic sacrifice the RAN made of it. It was just another unnecessary loss of life. Reibeisen ( talk) 00:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Well I have asked for some citations regading this alleged shock of the Australian public. I would also say the the British Commando's were to be evacuated, it was not a sacrificial operation. Although the objectives were met it was still a very expensive success, something which the British had not intended. Added to the fact that Hitler had forbade any warship from sailing the atlantic again after Bismarck, the operation was pretty pointless. The same can be said of the German ship, it did not live to fight another day. I think that listing the result as "both ships sunk" is better. If editors have the sources they claim asserts it as a clear Germany victory and nothing else then please add it. Dapi89 ( talk) 20:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Okay. But would still consider it expensive. I'll amend the result. Dapi89 ( talk) 18:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Kormoran, a converted merchant ship was scuttled in controlled manner with less than ¼ of her crew being lost, whilst the Germans had sunk a major Australian warship (with all the crew lost) that could have effected outcome of the Battle of the Java Sea that took place only three months later. I fail to see how this was not a German victory. Regards, -- Kurt Leyman ( talk) 15:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Could surviving members of Kormoran's crew have sued Michael Montgomery over his claims? PatGallacher ( talk) 11:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
There has been an attempt to move this article to "Battle of Carnarvon", on the grounds that this is used by at least one writer. An article like this should not have been moved without discussion, I know you can often be bold, but there are limits. "Battle of Carnarvon" or anything similar might not be widely understood, creates the possibility of confusion with the town in Wales, the existing title might be clumsy but at least it is clear. PatGallacher ( talk) 17:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Hmm.
Is this a typical Australian attempt to pass the buck?
Not once in any article on Wiki is the potential incompetence of Captain Burnett mentioned, yet we have alleged design flaws of Sydney as a possible cause for her demise.
Surely not another stealthy attempt to rewrite historical fact? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.167.245.63 ( talk) 14:09, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
As far as I know, HMAS Sydney wasn't the largest warship in WWII to sink with no survivors. There were no survivors on IJN battleships Yamashiro and Fuso in the Battle of Surigao Strait 1944. 62.237.141.27 ( talk) 14:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, great effort in lifting this article - it's undergone significant improvement since I last looked at it. A few minor thoughts for areas of future improvement:
More to follow...Socrates2008 ( Talk) 12:02, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I also think that saberwyn has done a great work expanding this article. Here are my (rather belated) comments:
Was the recent move necessary? Should it have been taken without discussion? Can somebody quote me the naming convention in question? There may be a default option of naming naval actions without a widely accepted name by their date, but that may cover actions involving several warships where naming them all would be unweildy. PatGallacher ( talk) 15:51, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Comment Just to clarify, I'm not opposed to the naming guideline as such. However, it was my understanding that this battle/action/whatever was most often referred to by the name of the ships involved. Which would make it not an "unnamed" battle. I'm not familiar with the sources, though, and I may stand corrected. Averell ( talk) 22:41, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I support PatGallacher’s renaming (to the original name); to me it seems the best descriptive title. The policy XavierGreen linked to above would only appear to be an explanation added to an article 4 years ago. It’s there for the benefit of the reader and seeing as it was added without any form of discussion or consensus (none was needed) I'm not sure it can be considered a policy or relevant to this discussion. So this just comes down to a choice between 2 formats - either something similar to the current title (using the ships names), or "action of such and such a date".
Neither have any specific sources backing them up, but given that I’ve never seen this action referred to as "Action of....." I strongly oppose using that name. I’d also suggest that this is a far more significant encounter than any of the other “Action of…” articles listed above all (1 of the examples posted above appears to link to a different title by the way), this being Australia’s worst-ever naval disaster. All the other articles using that format appear to be minor confrontations that aren't especially well known whereas this is a hugely significant encounter that has received widespread press and publicity, especially in the last year or two. Using the title “Action of…” doesn’t seem to do the engagement justice in my opinion.
Most of the press articles I've ever seen use the ship’s names to describe this engagement. Admittedly “Battle between HMAS Sydney and German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran” isn’t referenced, but I’m not sure it needs to be given that it’s a description and not a name. I might be tempted to change it to “Engagement between…” and lose the capital letter at the start in the lead, but that’s all. I actually think there might be grounds to use “Loss of HMAS Sydney” – admittedly it doesn’t name Kormorant and might be Australia centric, but it can be referenced and the loss of the ship was the most significant part of this encounter. Ranger Steve ( talk) 19:32, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
I have had a look at the War of 1812 naval battles mentioned above, and most single-ship actions are called "Ship A v. Ship B", there are a few exceptions "Sinking of Ship C". So this title looks ok, but we might move it to the more concise "HMAS Sydney v. German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran". PatGallacher ( talk) 01:36, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
This article, at 115KB, is quite long (see the guidelines on article size). Would it be possible to break out sections of it - the 'Analysis' and/or 'controversy' sections, for instance - into separate articles, to make it quicker to load and edit? Robofish ( talk) 00:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Can someone please put the killed in action symbol next to his name. it needs to be made explicit that he died since he did and you cannot tell for sure by reading the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.43.238.115 ( talk) 15:32, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
In going through my father's records from the time that he was on Christmas Island, I found a spent bullet that was enclosed with other articles that he wrote shortly after inspecting the remains of the body and the carley float found near Christmas Island. He theorized that the currents were aligned such that this float came from the south. I believe that if this were to be tested, it would establish that it was of German manufacture, and that it likely came from the German raider. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.51.0 ( talk) 06:53, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
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"Although Sydney is thought of as the only warship lost with all hands, the JCFADT report lists eight other ships lost during the World Wars where none survived, and another six where 95% or more aboard died.[236]" (JCFADT, Report on the loss of HMAS Sydney, pp. 89–90).
I think this sentence needs to be clarified. The numbers given must be taking into account only Allied or Australian ships, but not saying so gives the reader the impression that only nine warships, from all combatants, were lost during both world wars. But I know for a fact that at least 11 U-boats were lost with all hands in WWII alone. 71.189.63.114 ( talk) 23:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
This could be a complex issue. Possibly they are thinking about surface warships. However, although Sydney seems to have been the largest Allied ship lost with all hands in WW2, there were at least 1 and possibly 3 Japanese ships larger than Sydney lost with all hands. PatGallacher ( talk) 01:31, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Am I missing something here? The official forensic report that was conducted on the body exhumed from Christmas Island in 2006 ( http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/CORR/CORR.012.0233.pdf) includes a colour photograph (pg 16) of a top view of the skull that clearly shows what appears to be a perfectly rounded hole and yet I can't find any mention of this hole (and what may have caused it) in the report? Ayecaranya ( talk) 12:56, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
The article mentions that the Kormoran launched two torpedoes at the Sydney. One hit is noted, so what happened to the second?
The torpedo was the deadliest weapon of two world wars sinking more ships that all other systems combined. The alleged sighting of a periscope was sufficient to alarm Admirals and whole fleets put out to sea or drastically change course.
If the Kormoran put two torpedoes into the Sydney this ship was almost certain to be lost. AT Kunene ( talk) 12:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Although not a major factor in the battle itself (which was primarily decided by the Germans' high and accurate rate of fire and the element of suprise), it was a primary factor in the ship's later sinking
Seems written well-enough to be an easy pass for a WP:GA status, and maybe going further still to milhist A-class? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:57, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure I have the correct page for this purpose. I want to correct an apparent mistake, albeit of a relatively minor importance. In the relevant treatise reference is made to the entry of Japan into WW2 on 7 December 1941, which occurred several weeks after the above battle. Japan's hostilities opened with simultaneous attacks at eight locations [in fact several hours separated them], these were Hong Kong, Guam Island, Wake Island, the Gilbert Islands, southern Thailand, northern Malaya, the northern Philippines and Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Singapore was of course the prime objective of the Japanese Thailand/Malaya campaign but was not actually invaded until 8 February 1942 [Wikipedeia: "Battle of Singapore"]and surrendered on 15 February. The treatise strongly implies an attack on Singapore that was simultaneous with that on Pearl Harbour which is incorrect.It should be noted that Pearl Harbour was "attacked". All other places were "invaded". My authority for submitting the above can be found in any specialised history of the WW2 Malayan Campaign and The Fall of Singapore. I have a meagre 22 in my possession of the many histories written on this subject. No disagreement is found among them in this matter.
If my submission is misdirected, I would humbly seek advice as to redirection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Biggles Prime ( talk • contribs) 14:12, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
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Try HMAS Sydney and Kormoran, 19 November 1941. Result German victory, but loss of both ships, doesn't conform to Template:Infobox military conflict "result – optional – this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive"." Keith-264 ( talk) 17:21, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
How and why a purpose-built warship like Sydney was defeated by a modified merchant vessel like Kormoran was the subject of speculation; and, in the body:
Much of the controversy surrounding the battle stemmed from disbelief that a modified merchant ship could totally defeat a modern cruiser, with most theories describing how the Germans deceitfully gained the advantage.with a single source. There is not a section in the article that can be clearly linked to a "see section" for a discussing an assessment of the result. On the otherhand, both ships being sunk is ipso facto an inconclusive result.
@
Cinderella157: @
Nick-D: @
Keith-264: Hi, I had missed the debate. As of the result, one could write "Evaluated as German victory, or as inconclusive (both ships were lost)". While I agree that the trade-off of sinking a light cruiser vs. an auxiliary cruiser is not such a strong argument to call it a German victory, the many German survivors may well be used as an argument.
About moving the article, I think it was not beneficial, as now the title implicitly suggests that Sydney's opponent has not been sunk. I would prefer the old title, be it overlong, at least as the minor evil. --
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This article could easily become GA, with little work. Evan( Salad dressing is the milk of the infidel!) 18:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Why does this page give HMAS Sydney as 9000 ton but the HMAS Sydney (1934) page gives 6830t. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rubik3 ( talk • contribs) 03:12, August 21, 2007 (UTC).
This article says that the Sydney's guns were trained on the Kormoran, but the Kormoran page says that her guns were not trained on the raider. Which article is right? 74.103.98.163 00:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
As the title suggests this article should be about the battle. Therefore most of the text in the Attempts to find the wrecks section should be shifted over to HMAS Sydney (1934)#Searches. What do the masses say? Nomadtales 00:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
After its return from the Mediterranean, command of Sydney passed from the celebrated Captain John Collins to the relatively inexperienced Captain Joseph Burnett.
Many also found it difficult to believe that a senior officer like Burnett
Which one is it? Although this could mean that he was a Senior Officer, but a Junior Captain. Any clarification on this? Heirware ( talk) 06:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Under the 'Controversy' section a number of 'conspiracy theories' are mentioned. I don't believe any of these involve a conspiracy per se - the chain of events is simply unknown...no one is actively trying to hide the truth.
Because of this I have removed the word conspiracy from this section.
ahpook ( talk) 12:41, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't think "HSK" is a real prefix. Nazi Germany didn't use a prefix in front of their ship names. HSK is a suffix identifying the ship type. If there aren't any objections, I'd like to rename the article and then update it to remove the HSK prefixes. TomTheHand ( talk) 21:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
For the record, the Australian War Memorial site that is used as a footnote in this article uses no prefix for Kormoran. -- Mat Hardy (Affentitten) ( talk) 01:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
<---
The article is not clear on what happened to the Chinese POWs. One would presume that given they were prisoners of the enemy and part of a force fighting against the Axis who would become part of the Allies in about a month that they would have been released but this is not clear from the article Nil Einne ( talk) 16:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
It's not even clear about whose prisoners they were -- i.e. were they POWs of the Germans who were liberated by the Australians, or did they become POWs along with the German crew? As Nil alludes to above, the common assumption is likely that, because China was considered an Ally of the war, that they were German POWs. However, China itself wasn't at war with Germany, and in fact China received Western military training and equipment from Germany at the time. So it could really go either way. Ham Pastrami ( talk) 12:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Four Chinese crew members of the Eurylochus were hired by Detmers after Kormoran sank that ship in January, 1941. Each of them signed a contract as a civilian laundryman, so they were definitely no PoWs. The Chinese were to be paid after the return to Germany and received the same food and cigarette rations on Kormoran as the Kriegsmarine sailors. The fate of these men is also just another proof against the outrageous conspiracy theories of some unrelenting German-haters who still claim that Australian survivors were machine-gunned in the water, because the Chinese would have been unwelcome witnesses who either would have been killed by the imaginary Nazi murderers or would have revealed the ostensible crime to the Allied authorities. Reibeisen 21:46, 5 April 2008
The Further Reading section includes at least one document that was cited in line, which to my understanding makes it a 'Reference'. For those who have contributed to this article far more than I, are other items in Further Reading in the same situation? If so, they too should be in a References sections, and the current References & Notes section renamed Notes. This would give us Notes for citations, References for works used to provide citations or general sourcing, and Further Reading for documents not used as references but which are known to be related to this subject, or whose range extends well beyond this particular subject – though looking at the titles of the works currently under Further Reading, I suspect all may in fact be References. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 18:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
This article states in one place that the Sydney carried a Supermarine Walrus, and another that it was a Supermarine Seagull.
I don't know which is correct. However it also states the aircraft was operated by the 9th Squadron, which had Walrus's, and the 101st had Seagulls.
Respectfully.... 122.57.87.188 ( talk) 07:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I suppose it should now be "Battle of Dirk Hartog Island" or "Battle of Steep Point", but we should not be in the business of coining neologisms and I don't think there is a strict rule about how the naming feature of naval battles is decided(?) After all, some are named after geographical features a long way from where they took place (e.g. Battle of Makassar Strait). Grant | Talk 13:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This battle is referred to in a number of sources as the Battle of Carnarvon. Indeed the current title seems clumsy as such I propose to move it. Anotherclown ( talk) 17:37, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
1. HMAS Sydney spotted Kormoran at a distance but permitted itself to be lured within range of the Kormoran's guns, instead of staying out of range and sinking it.
2. Most of the Kormoran crew survived but not the Sydney crew.
3. The government, which has spent $3.9 million on the search, has appointed a retired judge to hold an inquiry into the new evidence. ENDQUOTE http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080404/ap_on_re_au_an/australia_wreck_mystery_1
QUOTE 5. According to the crew of Kormoran, the Australian warship did not appear to be fully prepared for the battle—her main guns were trained on Kormoran, but her secondary guns were unmanned.
6. The volume of hits that Sydney had now sustained along both sides of her superstructure and the resulting fires would have seen the almost complete destruction of her lifeboats and rafts. ENDQUOTE [So naturally none of the crew aboard HMAS Sydney survived].
QUOTE In Australia, many found it difficult to believe that a converted merchant ship could sink a modern light cruiser. Many also found it difficult to believe that a senior officer like Burnett took his ship within 1,000 metres (1,100 yd) of an unidentified and possibly dangerous vessel during wartime, without preparing for action and with such disastrous results. ENDQUOTE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_between_HMAS_Sydney_and_German_auxiliary_cruiser_Kormoran
So, it looks like the Captain of the HMAS Sydney lost the ship due to his own errors: he got too close to the enemy and he failed to man all his guns. Had he survived the battle, we might expect that he would be subject to court martial for losing his ship and his entire crew due to his own errors. Could this be why the government appointed a retired judge to hold an inquiry? Is there a specific section of the Australian Navy Code that the captain violated? These questions are very important because the honor of the German captain and crew of the Kormoran has been questioned and they have been condemned for war crimes. But it begins to look as though they were honest all along. The real problem has been that the Australians would prefer to allege war crimes than face up to the fact that the captain of HMAS Sydney was incompetant and was guilty of a gross dereliction of his duty to his ship and her crew. rumjal 05:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I added a couple of sentences about the lifeboats being found. This was then removed with the comment that such information just belonged in the search for Sydney article. I dispute that because the discovery of the lifeboats sheds some light on the final hours of the Sydney, which is the subject of the latter part of the article. The 'mystery' of Sydney and anything which 'explains' it is germane to this article. -- Mat Hardy ( talk) 23:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed this from the article as they are only allegations made as far as I am aware, are by one or two (uncited) newspapers and fringe theorists. Such allegations need to come from serious scholars of the incident rather than a newspaper hack sensationalising a story. — Moondyne click! 04:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I realise I could be getting into original research here. However it is possible that the disparity between the two ships was not as great as some have assumed. The Sydney's main armament consisted of 8 152 mm guns, Kormoran's consisted of 6 150 mm guns, that is not a great disparity. Kormoran was not comparable to a normal warship more in areas like lack of armour and lower speed. However this was not a normal battle, like night fighting at sea it depended on "The instantaneous production of the maximum output". So it's maybe not surprising that the 2 ships sank each other. PatGallacher ( talk) 15:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I didn't realise until recently that there were Chinese POWs aboard Kormoran. They might not have seen much, but what sort of account did they give? PatGallacher ( talk) 19:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The page was recently moved to 'Battle between HMAS Sydney and Kormoran'. I moved it back. It's our convention in these cases to add a prefix or preceding qualifier. This is doubly important in this case because as written it can seem to stand for Battle between Her Majesty's Australian Ships Sydney and Kormoran. i.e. the German auxiliary cruiser is necessary to distinguish at the very least the differing nationalities. I'm open to explanations for the move though? Benea ( talk) 20:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I have a problem with it being a German victory. How was it? Both ships were lost. What psychological victory are we talking about? Nothing much is mentioned about this in the article. As there were not any survivors from Sydney, and not a single soul saw her go down (well living soul anyway), how can it be claimed she was sunk by the Kormoran. For all we know she might have hit a mine! Dapi89 ( talk) 11:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
It depends how you define victory. It still was not a clear victory. At the most it would have been a Pyrrhic victory, after all the German vessel was sunk as well. Dapi89 ( talk) 16:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
BTW, it should read sunk. The ships were not "lost". It is even more inappropriate now that Sydney has been found. Dapi89 ( talk) 16:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
If the result is to be restored, and the assertion that it was in part a psychological victory kept in, I believe the information in the article alleging this "shock" should be cited. At the moment it is devoid of any accreditation. Dapi89 ( talk) 18:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
How can this engagement be anything other than a German victory? Sure, both ships sunk, but in every respect the Germans came out on top. Sydney was a cruiser, very much superior to the German Q-ship. That's the scales tilted in the German favour, right there. The Germans survived, albeit in captivity, whilst Sydney's crew all died. That was a huge loss to the RAN - there is nothing else that comes close, when considering the list of names in the AWM. -- Pete ( talk) 18:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The point made about the disparity in capabilities is a good one. But I wonder whether the German crew regarded this as a victory. Spending six years in POW camp and failing to destroy more merchant vessels, which was their primary task, was not really that victorious. Bismarck sank Hood, but you wouldn't call the operation a success because Bismarck was brought to heel herself, and she didn't fulfill her assigned task. Anyway, it seems I am outnumbered, so I guess "the motion" is denied. Dapi89 ( talk) 16:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
How about Pyrrhic victory? I could deal with that. Dapi89 ( talk) 18:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Even if Sydney had been able to make port after the battle, it seems likely that most of its crew would have been dead and/or it would have taken years to repair (if the recovery of her sister, HMAS Hobart (1939), from a Japanese torpedo strike is anything to go by).
I look at it this way: Kormoran was equivalent to an army special forces unit, i.e. it was intended to operate behind enemy lines, against targets of opportunity, and with a high risk of destruction or capture. For such a unit to engage a regular enemy unit of greater strength, in enemy territory, and destroy it, represents a victory, regardless of the fact that said special forces unit is captured. (That is why, for instance, St. Nazaire Raid is described as a British victory, even though more than nine tenths of the British force was killed or captured.) Grant | Talk 00:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
The ANZAC Day Press coverage reveals some gross misconceptions about the significance of the battle. Several articles quoted politicians or family members of the Sydney crew with remarks like "They didn't die in vain, by sinking the Kormoran they saved so many other lives" or "We now live in a better world because of their sacrifice" (Kevin Rudd). Fact is, the loss of the two ships was totally insignificant for both sides. All together, the pathetic little fleet of the nine German Hilfskreuzer sunk less ships than certain U-Boote alone, while Sydney could well have suffered the fate of Perth or Canberra if she survived into 1942. Also, the sinking of the 11 ships attacked by Kormoran during her career only cost a mere dozen lives, so she could have cruised on until the war's end and still would have killed only a fraction of Sydney's complement. For all concerned, it would have been better if both ships had never met, and the battle was neither the glorious victory of David against Goliath the Kriegsmarine claimed it to be nor the great heroic sacrifice the RAN made of it. It was just another unnecessary loss of life. Reibeisen ( talk) 00:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Well I have asked for some citations regading this alleged shock of the Australian public. I would also say the the British Commando's were to be evacuated, it was not a sacrificial operation. Although the objectives were met it was still a very expensive success, something which the British had not intended. Added to the fact that Hitler had forbade any warship from sailing the atlantic again after Bismarck, the operation was pretty pointless. The same can be said of the German ship, it did not live to fight another day. I think that listing the result as "both ships sunk" is better. If editors have the sources they claim asserts it as a clear Germany victory and nothing else then please add it. Dapi89 ( talk) 20:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Okay. But would still consider it expensive. I'll amend the result. Dapi89 ( talk) 18:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Kormoran, a converted merchant ship was scuttled in controlled manner with less than ¼ of her crew being lost, whilst the Germans had sunk a major Australian warship (with all the crew lost) that could have effected outcome of the Battle of the Java Sea that took place only three months later. I fail to see how this was not a German victory. Regards, -- Kurt Leyman ( talk) 15:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Could surviving members of Kormoran's crew have sued Michael Montgomery over his claims? PatGallacher ( talk) 11:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
There has been an attempt to move this article to "Battle of Carnarvon", on the grounds that this is used by at least one writer. An article like this should not have been moved without discussion, I know you can often be bold, but there are limits. "Battle of Carnarvon" or anything similar might not be widely understood, creates the possibility of confusion with the town in Wales, the existing title might be clumsy but at least it is clear. PatGallacher ( talk) 17:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Hmm.
Is this a typical Australian attempt to pass the buck?
Not once in any article on Wiki is the potential incompetence of Captain Burnett mentioned, yet we have alleged design flaws of Sydney as a possible cause for her demise.
Surely not another stealthy attempt to rewrite historical fact? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.167.245.63 ( talk) 14:09, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
As far as I know, HMAS Sydney wasn't the largest warship in WWII to sink with no survivors. There were no survivors on IJN battleships Yamashiro and Fuso in the Battle of Surigao Strait 1944. 62.237.141.27 ( talk) 14:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, great effort in lifting this article - it's undergone significant improvement since I last looked at it. A few minor thoughts for areas of future improvement:
More to follow...Socrates2008 ( Talk) 12:02, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I also think that saberwyn has done a great work expanding this article. Here are my (rather belated) comments:
Was the recent move necessary? Should it have been taken without discussion? Can somebody quote me the naming convention in question? There may be a default option of naming naval actions without a widely accepted name by their date, but that may cover actions involving several warships where naming them all would be unweildy. PatGallacher ( talk) 15:51, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Comment Just to clarify, I'm not opposed to the naming guideline as such. However, it was my understanding that this battle/action/whatever was most often referred to by the name of the ships involved. Which would make it not an "unnamed" battle. I'm not familiar with the sources, though, and I may stand corrected. Averell ( talk) 22:41, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I support PatGallacher’s renaming (to the original name); to me it seems the best descriptive title. The policy XavierGreen linked to above would only appear to be an explanation added to an article 4 years ago. It’s there for the benefit of the reader and seeing as it was added without any form of discussion or consensus (none was needed) I'm not sure it can be considered a policy or relevant to this discussion. So this just comes down to a choice between 2 formats - either something similar to the current title (using the ships names), or "action of such and such a date".
Neither have any specific sources backing them up, but given that I’ve never seen this action referred to as "Action of....." I strongly oppose using that name. I’d also suggest that this is a far more significant encounter than any of the other “Action of…” articles listed above all (1 of the examples posted above appears to link to a different title by the way), this being Australia’s worst-ever naval disaster. All the other articles using that format appear to be minor confrontations that aren't especially well known whereas this is a hugely significant encounter that has received widespread press and publicity, especially in the last year or two. Using the title “Action of…” doesn’t seem to do the engagement justice in my opinion.
Most of the press articles I've ever seen use the ship’s names to describe this engagement. Admittedly “Battle between HMAS Sydney and German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran” isn’t referenced, but I’m not sure it needs to be given that it’s a description and not a name. I might be tempted to change it to “Engagement between…” and lose the capital letter at the start in the lead, but that’s all. I actually think there might be grounds to use “Loss of HMAS Sydney” – admittedly it doesn’t name Kormorant and might be Australia centric, but it can be referenced and the loss of the ship was the most significant part of this encounter. Ranger Steve ( talk) 19:32, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
I have had a look at the War of 1812 naval battles mentioned above, and most single-ship actions are called "Ship A v. Ship B", there are a few exceptions "Sinking of Ship C". So this title looks ok, but we might move it to the more concise "HMAS Sydney v. German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran". PatGallacher ( talk) 01:36, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
This article, at 115KB, is quite long (see the guidelines on article size). Would it be possible to break out sections of it - the 'Analysis' and/or 'controversy' sections, for instance - into separate articles, to make it quicker to load and edit? Robofish ( talk) 00:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Can someone please put the killed in action symbol next to his name. it needs to be made explicit that he died since he did and you cannot tell for sure by reading the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.43.238.115 ( talk) 15:32, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
In going through my father's records from the time that he was on Christmas Island, I found a spent bullet that was enclosed with other articles that he wrote shortly after inspecting the remains of the body and the carley float found near Christmas Island. He theorized that the currents were aligned such that this float came from the south. I believe that if this were to be tested, it would establish that it was of German manufacture, and that it likely came from the German raider. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.51.0 ( talk) 06:53, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
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"Although Sydney is thought of as the only warship lost with all hands, the JCFADT report lists eight other ships lost during the World Wars where none survived, and another six where 95% or more aboard died.[236]" (JCFADT, Report on the loss of HMAS Sydney, pp. 89–90).
I think this sentence needs to be clarified. The numbers given must be taking into account only Allied or Australian ships, but not saying so gives the reader the impression that only nine warships, from all combatants, were lost during both world wars. But I know for a fact that at least 11 U-boats were lost with all hands in WWII alone. 71.189.63.114 ( talk) 23:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
This could be a complex issue. Possibly they are thinking about surface warships. However, although Sydney seems to have been the largest Allied ship lost with all hands in WW2, there were at least 1 and possibly 3 Japanese ships larger than Sydney lost with all hands. PatGallacher ( talk) 01:31, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Am I missing something here? The official forensic report that was conducted on the body exhumed from Christmas Island in 2006 ( http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/CORR/CORR.012.0233.pdf) includes a colour photograph (pg 16) of a top view of the skull that clearly shows what appears to be a perfectly rounded hole and yet I can't find any mention of this hole (and what may have caused it) in the report? Ayecaranya ( talk) 12:56, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
The article mentions that the Kormoran launched two torpedoes at the Sydney. One hit is noted, so what happened to the second?
The torpedo was the deadliest weapon of two world wars sinking more ships that all other systems combined. The alleged sighting of a periscope was sufficient to alarm Admirals and whole fleets put out to sea or drastically change course.
If the Kormoran put two torpedoes into the Sydney this ship was almost certain to be lost. AT Kunene ( talk) 12:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Although not a major factor in the battle itself (which was primarily decided by the Germans' high and accurate rate of fire and the element of suprise), it was a primary factor in the ship's later sinking
Seems written well-enough to be an easy pass for a WP:GA status, and maybe going further still to milhist A-class? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:57, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure I have the correct page for this purpose. I want to correct an apparent mistake, albeit of a relatively minor importance. In the relevant treatise reference is made to the entry of Japan into WW2 on 7 December 1941, which occurred several weeks after the above battle. Japan's hostilities opened with simultaneous attacks at eight locations [in fact several hours separated them], these were Hong Kong, Guam Island, Wake Island, the Gilbert Islands, southern Thailand, northern Malaya, the northern Philippines and Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Singapore was of course the prime objective of the Japanese Thailand/Malaya campaign but was not actually invaded until 8 February 1942 [Wikipedeia: "Battle of Singapore"]and surrendered on 15 February. The treatise strongly implies an attack on Singapore that was simultaneous with that on Pearl Harbour which is incorrect.It should be noted that Pearl Harbour was "attacked". All other places were "invaded". My authority for submitting the above can be found in any specialised history of the WW2 Malayan Campaign and The Fall of Singapore. I have a meagre 22 in my possession of the many histories written on this subject. No disagreement is found among them in this matter.
If my submission is misdirected, I would humbly seek advice as to redirection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Biggles Prime ( talk • contribs) 14:12, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
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Try HMAS Sydney and Kormoran, 19 November 1941. Result German victory, but loss of both ships, doesn't conform to Template:Infobox military conflict "result – optional – this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive"." Keith-264 ( talk) 17:21, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
How and why a purpose-built warship like Sydney was defeated by a modified merchant vessel like Kormoran was the subject of speculation; and, in the body:
Much of the controversy surrounding the battle stemmed from disbelief that a modified merchant ship could totally defeat a modern cruiser, with most theories describing how the Germans deceitfully gained the advantage.with a single source. There is not a section in the article that can be clearly linked to a "see section" for a discussing an assessment of the result. On the otherhand, both ships being sunk is ipso facto an inconclusive result.
@
Cinderella157: @
Nick-D: @
Keith-264: Hi, I had missed the debate. As of the result, one could write "Evaluated as German victory, or as inconclusive (both ships were lost)". While I agree that the trade-off of sinking a light cruiser vs. an auxiliary cruiser is not such a strong argument to call it a German victory, the many German survivors may well be used as an argument.
About moving the article, I think it was not beneficial, as now the title implicitly suggests that Sydney's opponent has not been sunk. I would prefer the old title, be it overlong, at least as the minor evil. --
KnightMove (
talk)
14:47, 24 March 2022 (UTC)