![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
... plebiscite to decide the issue in 1921, whose results (disputed by Poland) were skewed by the German settler population.
What in the world is meant or implied here? As far as I am aware, the post-WWI plebescite reflected the distribution of German and Polish residents in Upper Silesia. What is meant by "settlers"? Surely, we're not suggesting that the millions of Germans inhabiting Silesia before WWII were recent arrivals. Sca ( talk) 19:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
It's very difficult to treat Silesia as a extant political or cultural entity. Historical Silesia now exists as four very distinct, independent areas (Lower, Opole, Upper and Czech) that have little to do with each other politically or culturally. The fragmentation of historical Silesia occurred long before WWII. In fact, it dates back more than 800 years.
There's also the tiny fragment of historical Silesia around Goerlitz that's now part of Saxony. I don't know whether the residents of this area consider themselves Silesian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dominus Vobisdu ( talk • contribs) 08:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
It's also grossly misleading to say that Katowice is considered the "capital" of Silesia. It's only the capital of Upper Silesia, and has no influence over Lower, Opole or Czech Silesia, where no one identifies with Katowice in any way whatsoever. Part of the confusion stems from the fact that the administrative district of Upper Silesia is known simply as unqualified "Województwo Śląskie" in Polish instead of the more logical and accurate "Województwo Górnośląskie".
The article should make it clear that historical Silesia no longer exists as a single entity, and that it has been replaced by four distinct regions.
Cleaned up some Croatian nationalist blither and deleted some long unsourced and dubious etymological and cultural claims as well. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 08:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a place to POV as you perfectly know. You declare yourself as anti- Polish POV person - this is also POV in this point yours own. You have strong inclination which you should keep aside. Wikipedia is scientific work so only objective research should be taken in mind. You have strong animosity thus you are not objective by definition.
If I did an error just repair it. Step by step we will get consent. For me science and research is above all.
Regarding: >> PS. Where is State Country? and Duchies of Silesia to 14 century? Nonsense. And other errors.) <<
In table is “Status” not “State”. Any way the Duchies -- Cleaghyre ( talk) 16:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)-- Cleaghyre ( talk) 16:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)-- Cleaghyre ( talk) 16:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)were independent countries as for example in modern time Luxemburg or Monaco. So where is you point.
Now what is you next point in discussion, and please do not force you table. I created a table first you erased it and put yours. I improved mine including some of your suggestion and you erased it also informing you creation as only correct. This is not discussion and improvement this is editing war from you side. I welcome you next suggestion and proof to it. If you have no proof stop doing editing war, you will continue the war I will report you for blocking. -- Cleaghyre ( talk) 18:55, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
TO LukPol
Dear Sir, Although there was an error in Silesia article table this is no reason to call it mystification. It is harsh word. I do not know if you words regarding new Wikipedia user and teaching are related to me but it is not important how long one is editing Wikipedia. You proud and emotional approach is impolite lightly speaking. Some people are older and maybe at least equaly wel educated as you. Also the anti-Polish baner is offending, althougth you say is official should not exist and particulary polite person should not use it. Returning to improvement of the table: 1) Are you sure the German tribe was there from BC? If so please give a source of this assumption otherwise I propose simple “to 5th century” 2) Can you explain what is the idea about Independent Piast Duchies up to 20 centuries? I do not think it is reasonable. The Duchies lost thier independace ealier Regards -- Cleaghyre ( talk) 16:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Silesia currently has no borders because it has ceased to exist as a political entity both in Germany and Poland. The Oder/Neisse line is solely a border between Germany and Poland, and it's only relationship to Silesia is that it bisects the historical territory of that name. That is more of a coincidence than anything else, and not a particularly interesting or noteworthy coincidence at that. The fact that some of the territory formerly known as Silesia now lies withing the borders of Germany is already clearly stated in the article.
BTW, the provinces of (Upper) Silesia and Lower Silesia in Poland are purely administrative in nature, and not political. The borders of the provinces are arbitrary and can be changed at any time by the State of Poland. The names are arbitrary, too, and do not indicate that Silesia currently enjoys any measure of sovereignty or autonomy. Poland has no political divisions, unlike Germany or the United States, which are federations of politically distinct units. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 22:18, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
This is obviously a single source, partly biased. In fact, not all left Silesia after the war - many had to stay as the were needed as workes in an industrialized zone. Where should the 1,1million people in the 80es and 90es moving to Germany come from? All of them working in mines? This part is rubbish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.11.13.149 ( talk) 21:17, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
You seem to forget the re-population after the ethnic cleansing. Aside from the native Poles of Upper Silesia who stayed (I don't know how many fled to Germany like the Masurians of East Prussia), you had Poles who were likewise ethnically cleansed from Eastern Galicia and the Wilno region split between Belarus and Lithuania move into the void left by the Germans. You also had Poles immigrate from the over-crowded regions of central Poland (former Congress Poland) and Western Galicia following the war. On top of that, you have the population increase of Poland as a whole following WWII and the Cold War economic migration to Silesia from other parts of Poland for economic reasons. Prussia1231 ( talk) 02:58, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
'Shilingiai' in Lithuanian language literaly means 'pine forest people' and 'shilas' is 'a pine forest'...these names appeared in this region prior slavs developed their language and germans were still living in Gotland...moreover the main river Oder in Lithuanian language is 'Udra' which is 'an otter'. http://on.lt/geruliai 90.219.127.67 ( talk) 02:09, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
I thought the Celtic Boi (original Bohemaians) first settled this land during Roman times???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.194.69.231 ( talk) 20:39, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
I had to wrote that. I come from Hungary and that's the reason why I'm objectiv. I'm a historian. I know a lot about Poland because I'm studying slavistic. You know, knowledge about slav people.
1)Lusatia aren't on SIlesia. Luzatia people are individual slowian people. They belong to Silesia only during german ocupation. It was from XVIII century to 1945 year. That's why I'm asking to remove that Silesia is now on the german side. It's situated in Poland and Czech Republic. Silesia is ending on the Kwisa and Bobr river.
2)For me, Nico, you are a tipical german nazist. Sorry, but you want to incline history to be comfortable to you. I think, that you didn'r read any book about Silesia, and if you did that, it was the book from Joseph Goebbels century.
3)You are and idiot, sca. You think that people at Silesia know german language? They don't know this language, don't betray people. I was many times at Upper Silesia and I saw that in schools teachers are learning their language - polish, and to choose english, spanish, french or russian. If you are so smart, come here (at silesia) and try to speak german. They will laugh at you.
4)On Silesia (10 mln people) according to nationality registration there is 96% polish people. The rest is the german less or people declaring silesia nationality (which doesn't exist).
5)FACTS :
-Generic people here are slav. Name silesia is also slowian and it became grom Sleza mountain and Sleza river. They are the latest probate analysis. They are the facts.
-first polish setntense were told exactly at silesia (day ac ya pobrusza a ty pocziway)
-Silesia writers from XV, XVI and XVII century Szymon Pastorius, Olbrycht Strumienski, Walenty Rozdzieński wrote IN POLISH. Though german nationalism and destroying polish humanity
-polish scientist dr Alina Kowalska demonstrated that city and vilage people at silesia in XVI and XVII century know how to speak only in polish.
-Silesia was german only for 200 years.
And it's all facts. People, please, read a bit before you will write that piece of shit and so many lies. This article must be corrected. hungarius 19:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Medieval Silesia might have ended at the Kwisa and Bobr rivers, but Silesia since the 19th century does include parts of Lusatia. This article is not just about medieval Silesia, but about the history of a region called Silesia whose boundaries have changed numerous times. Other encyclopedias directly state that part of Silesia is in Germany.
Olessi:"but about the history of a region called Silesia". OK, I understand. Therefore in article IS sentence: "– Silesia became a province of Prussia. In 1815, the area around Görlitz was incorporated as a part of the province in an administrative reform." And you wrote [...] Columbia [...]. Look, Columbia write: "Politically, almost all of Silesia is divided between Poland and the Czech Republic." This is first sentence in introducion! I can't read more in Encarta, only "Silesia (Polish Ślask; German Schlesien; Czech Slezsko), historic region of Central Europe, mostly in what is now southwestern Poland, comprising the..." -- Hungarius 22:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
(Just to note, but User:Nico has not been contributing to wikipedia for more than a year now). On the substantive issue, I agree with Olessi - there is no reason not to mention the originally Lusatian part of Silesia that is now in Germany. Geographical names change their reference points, and it is not for wikipedia to decide what the "correct" meaning of a term is. john k 22:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi. I´m Silesian. It´s wrong that Silesia ends at Bobr and Kwisa. It´s true that some parts of Silesia are also a part of Lusatia. But that´s only a small part. The information of Encarta that a part of Silesia is in Brandenburg is wrong. The german Silesia is only a part of Saxony. In today Germany we call often only this parts Lusatia, there the shields are in german and sorbian. Görlitz and it´s inhabitants are very proud to be part of (Lower-)Silesia and they call themselves mostly (Lower-)Silesian. A county near Görlitz is also called "Niederschlesischer Oberlausitzkreis". A bank is also called "Niederschlesische Sparkasse". It´s defintely wrong to say Silesia ends at Bobr and Kwisa. Jonny84 13:35, 27. August 2005 (UTC)
On the wider issue, since there is a "Lower Lusatian District of Upper Lusatia" in Saxony, the article should mention that about one tenth of Silesia is situated in today's Germany. (Alright, it's Lusatia first and Silesia second - but that's not for me to resolve ;) ) Lasse Mar 31st, 06.
In relation to the Latin name [4].
I can see some reason for including the Latin name in this article, but why is it also being placed in articles of various small towns [5] [6]? VolunteerMarek 22:40, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Because it might prove beneficial to someone doing further research to include the Latin place name used in historic records, writings et al. Nightsturm ( talk) 23:26, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
There are two problems with your argument: 1. If Latin, then why not Fijian? There's an off chance that that "might prove beneficial to someone doing further research" as well, 2. If Glubczyce and Sudice why not Decatur, Alabama or Vedbæk, Denmark, or Anapaike Suriname? Just because there's some map from the 16th century with a Latin name on it? So as long as some document with a Latin name can be located we should include the Latin name? That's not policy. Please see WP:NAME.
Basically, Dominus above is not entirely correct - it is actually not sufficient to find one or two secondary sources which use the Latin name. What is necessary is to show that the Latin name is *extensively* used in secondary sources. VolunteerMarek 06:12, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
[7] - the edit summary here says "as before", which I take to mean that the previous edit summary applies. That was redundant and possibly inaccurate, summary with ref, reword. While that es might have applied to some OTHER aspect of this edit [8] I don't see in the least bit how it supports the continued attempts - sneaky ones too, since now Rsloch is trying to bury the removal among other changes - to remove the phrase " in German concentration camps". The sentence right after this one is about the expulsion of Germans. Omitting the clarifying phrase has the twisted effect of suggesting a common culpability for both phenomenon. I see no reason for removing this info EXCEPT a conscious attempt at suggesting that the concentration/extermination camps in question somehow weren't German.
Please stop. VolunteerMarek 18:31, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but while there is some useful info in most recent edits [9] some of it just doesn't make sense: The industry increased during German rule peaking in the 1970s during the People's Republic of Poland sounds like Germany ruled People's Republic of Poland. I also don't see any reason given for removal of info on modern day resources and environmental problems - why was this sourced info removed? Finally, why is stuff about 4th century BC being moved to the END of the section rather than the beginning where it logically and chronologically belongs? VolunteerMarek 20:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
The sound file for German pronunciation is good, but it would be nice to have an English pronunciation provided in IPA symbols. Lusanaherandraton 04:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Neither sound icon seems to be working in either language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.14.9 ( talk) 02:28, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
This interesting article is vitiated by a desire by at least one author to use Polish words as if they were English, resulting in mysterious terms such as "Voivodeship", "Silesian Przesieka" or the "Silesian Piasts". This is probably allied with the tendency to use Polish placenames in relation to periods when the official language was German, which is ahistorical and also confusing to the reader. It ought to be tidied up, if that can be done without offending anyone. Deipnosophista ( talk) 19:50, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Al%C4%85sk_nazwa
"Poglądy na temat nazwy "Śląsk": 1. Bradtkie w pocz. XIX w., nazwę Śląsk wywiódł od nazwy rzeki Ślęży, od której swoją nazwę mieli przyjąć Ślężanie (o których pisał Geograf Bawarski w poł. IX w.). Od lat 30 –ych XX wieku prowadzone były lingwistyczne badania Semkowicza i Rudnickiego, którzy uznali że nie jest prawdopodobne by rdzeń Sil- (jakoby pochodzący od Silingów) mógł się zmienić w: a) „Sleenzane” u Geografa Bawarskiego czy b) w „Zlasane” w dokumencie praskim z 1086 czy c) „Selenza”, w nazwie rzeki Ślęzy, w bulli papieża Hadriana IV z 1155 r. 2. Samo słowo Śląsk pochodzi od „ślęg” co oznacza wilgoć, słotę a to znajduje uzasadnienie w dużej aż po 500 m, wilgotności góry Ślęzy i rzeki Ślęzy płynącej przez rozległe mokradła. 3. Historiografia zna wiele przypadków określenia plemion nazwami rzeki. W odwrotnym kierunku odbywało się to raczej rzadko. Wskazywałoby to na nazwanie Ślężan od rzeki Ślęzy. 4. S. Rospond zbadał najdawniejsze dokumenty z XII i XIII wieku i zauważył że nazwy z tego okresu zapisywano w formie: Slesia, Slezia, Zlesensis. Forma „Silesia” zaczęła pojawiać się znacznie później – już w czasach nowożytnych, prawdopodobnie „za sprawą lektury Thietmara, który jako pierwszy słowiańskiej nazwie Śląsk nadał dostosowaną do grafiki i fonetyki niemieckiej formę Silensia”. 5. Wg wskazówek Ptolemeusza, Silingowie (od których wg niektórych naukowców niemieckich pochodzi nazwa Śląsk) zamieszkiwali tereny Łużyc. W związku z tym związek Silingów ze Śląskiem byłby niewielki. 6. Czeska nazwa Śląska brzmi Slesko czyli zaczyna się od Sle- a nie Sil-....(np. "Silesia" jak brzmi nazwa łacińska). 7. Nowe badania J. Udolpha przychylają się do twierdzenia że nazwa Śląsk pochodzi od nazwy Ślęży i wskazał przy tym na wiele plemion słowiańskiech, których nazwy pochodzą od rzek. Jego zdaniem nawet ewentualny rdzeń sil- nie wskazywałaby na germańskość nazwy, ponieważ rdzeń sil- spotyka się w nazwach wielu rzek np. Sile w Wenecji, Silla w Asturii, Silinka w Rosji. Swoje badania opisał w „Der Name Schlesien, [w:] Studia Onomastica et Indogermanica” – Graz 1995 i w „Der Name Schlesien [w] Opuscula Silesiaca” – Stuttgart 1998."
please translate... -- Hungarius 13:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
This is the English language Wikipedia. 81.131.16.68 16:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
'Shilingiai' in Lithuanian language literaly means 'pine forest people' and 'shilas' is 'a pine forest'...these names appeared in this region prior slavs developed their language and germans were still living in Gotland...moreover the main river Oder in Lithuanian language is 'Udra' which is 'an otter'.
90.219.127.67 (
talk)
02:05, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
A number of editors from varying standpoints (British, American, and Polish) have removed a table that a user from varying IP addresses wishes to add. I won't speak for others but I find the adding of such a table redundant as the data is already in the intro and the history section. It is also probably unique to this article. Hopefully this will end the bizarre messages on talk pages and threats in the history section. Rsloch ( talk) 22:41, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Re: [10]. The very outdated and largely irrelevant Gdansk vote applies to historical context. It is not an excuse to spam anachronistic German names all over the place, particularly when discussing the present day. If you want to put in German historical names in the history section, that's fine, but please keep them out of the Overview section as they do not belong there.
And please don't start edit wars, against several users to try and implement these changes against consensus. Thanks. Volunteer Marek 16:07, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This edit [12] removed information about Jews being murdered in Birkenau gas chambers and changed information that they were murdered in Auschwitz gas chambers into "killed". I think information about up to 20,000 Jews murdered in Birkenau gas chambers should be restored and we also should write that in Auschwitz they were murdered in gas chambers as well(killing could mean various things, and the extermination in gas chambers is quite important). What do others think?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be an issue over some, if not all, of my recent edits to this article. I will explain my reasoning.
The first edit was to remove boilerplate text which was very generalised, was in part factually inaccurate, contained typos and was oddly worded. I incorporated material relating to differing estimates another editor had added. This was reverted because 'great difference between "expelled" and "exterminated"'. The text I added clearly states that the Jews of Silesia were first expelled to ghettos and the General Government from which many were later sent to work and death camps including the line 'Most Jews in Silesia were exterminated by the Nazis'.
I would also draw attention to similar discussions above. Rsloch ( talk) 19:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC) You have deleted information about Nazi atrocities and that Jews from Silesia were murdered in gas chambers. Please don't do this as it is well sourced. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
You have changed the information in a way that might misinform. The goal of Nazi Germany was to exterminate Jews and Poles not just expel them. To achieve this Germany used mass murder and ethnic cleansing-this should be clear, and I have added necessary information. Stating that Nazi Germany expelled Poles is incorrect as it misses the whole issue of declaring them subhumans to be exterminated and use of mass murder. And saying that Jews and Poles were to be removed is simply to euphemistic as it might led to misunderstanding that they were just to be re-located. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 10:07, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
For example you edit includes information "One of the goals of Nazi occupation, particularly in Upper Silesia, was to expel the Polish Silesian population" which is completely inaccurate as as Poles were to be exterminated not only expelled. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 12:40, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
"can we all agree to edit rather than just revert?" You have continued to revert three different editors who tried to restore information about Nazi atrocities you deleted. May I suggest you led by example? As to the rest. The reason for mass murder of Poles and Jews in Silesia needs to be shown-and the fact that they were considered untermenschen is important. Also while Poles were ethnically cleansed(expelled is wrong word here), the fact that they were mass murdered and targeted for extermination is far more important. Your edits show inaccurate and distorted picture of events in Silesia. We can't show Nazi treatment of Poles or Jews in Silesia as just "expulsion"(in fact the very word is wrong-it should be ethnic cleansing), as their primary goal and actions were genocide. In your answer I see no argument for that and I am afraid that I will continue to see a reason to restore valid and accurate information about Nazi atrocities in the region.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:32, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
No, not at all. You haven't explained anything about why you have replaced information that Poles and Jews were exterminated as subhumans with information that they were expelled.Please do.Otherwise I see no reason not to restore this vital piece of information.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the warring is over this phrase, "The Polish population of Silesia was reduced to a worker class status and mistreated by their new "German overlords"", reverted in this edit. Both versions, by the way, suffer from poor grammar. I don't know if the entire dispute boils down to this, but if it does, that's particularly silly. (I'm not here to discuss content, but the overlord language is a bit not so encyclopedic.) Rsloch, Dominus Vobisdu, and Yemote, you'll have to figure this out here, what's going on in this edit war and how you will reach consensus. Afterward, Estlandia will proofread. Drmies ( talk) 21:38, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
In first place do not enter with Warnings on my talk page and remove my Warnings on yours. That is good that you finally start asking questions, it is bad you do not answer for mine. The answer for you question is that you reverted MyMoloboaccount edit which strongly underlined German Nazi work, namely GENOCIDE. Secondly MyMoloboaccount say you have no his consensus to that and I agree, I do not give a consensus for you actions too. Third, you provided some resources regarding: ``Silesia has historically been an ethnically diverse region`` it is free expanding authors sequences to you POV benefits. Nobody says that Silesia was always ethnically mix area. It is simple not true. Introducing it as top sentence in section `History`is invasion and manipulation for POV. My proposal is to accept the fact German Nazi made GENOCIDE and that Silesia was not always ethnically mix area. Slavs entered the deserted area in in VI or VII AD, created there their states and nations. Only from XIV AD some German settlement start there on the permission of Polish Royal dynasty. They are the facts.-- Yemote ( talk) 18:48, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
____
Summation: History books does not start from overstated conclusion it follow the chronology. Silesia was not ethnically diverse region for earliest time until XIV century. At least you or anybody has knowledge of it. Additional from VII to XIV century there was only Slavic culture there. Thus you statement; "Silesia has historically been an ethnically diverse region" as the top sentence is WRONG. Let me know exactly what citation from you resources would support the generalization for early period of Silesia's history. Give me the page and citation. If not it is simple you mislead other and start edit war, and will be send to appropriate notice board. -- Yemote ( talk) 20:08, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Interesting point Yemote, I think I can find a source confirming that Germanization of Silesia was relatively late event. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:21, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
"It clearly didn't" There are whole books on genocide in Silesia, at this point you are just repeating your personal theory. As to Gross-Rosen it was used in genocide and to murder people as well, and Auschwitz Birkenau was part of Silesian Gau. I will add sources on genocide once the article is unblocked.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:43, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
It is enough to see the Wikipedia article Extermination camps there are one of mine death camp Gross-Rosen in Silesia, Jewish Ghetto in Bendzin and “surprise” for Rsloch - Auschwitz - in German Provinz Oberschilesien. I am sure he will still assume the GENOCIDE was not performed by Germans in Silesia. Gross-Rossen was work camp? For God sake, 40,000 died on site and in evacuation transports -1/3 of total inmates. For Rsloch murdering of tens of thousands has to be done in specific way to be considered GENOCIDE. He is definitely Holocaust denial. I have to investigate if this can be put in court in US, here is possible to put a foreign citizen to respond.-- Yemote ( talk) 00:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Considering how wiggly Rsloch dancing around the so call German ancient tribes and eternal ethnic diversity in Silesia he has definitely very clear POV with inclination to revert historical fact for "ideological" reasons. It can not be tolerated.-- Yemote ( talk) 00:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Rsloch you did not provided the page #s and citation from the resources you add to the top sentence of chapter History. I cannot found any reasonable paragraph which can support you makeup.-- Yemote ( talk) 00:20, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Since a dispute has occurred I would like to know opinion of others how should we describe the campaign of organized mass murder and genocide against Poles and Jews in Silesia during Second World War? Current euphemistic sentence that atrocities happened seems lacking as it could indicate isolated incidents. I believe sentence in line of "Poles and Jews were classified as sub-humans by Nazi Germany and subjected to campaign of genocide involving mass murder and ethnic cleansing, with their extermination as final goal" would be far more appropriate. What to others think? -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 13:09, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
So a short subsection titled Nazi Genocide of Poles and Jews in Silesia and sentence "Poles and Jews were classified as sub-humans by Nazi Germany and subjected to campaign of genocide involving mass murder and ethnic cleansing, with their extermination as final goal" and wiki-link to appropriate articles would be acceptable?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 16:25, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I am for the proposal of a short subsection titled Nazi Genocide of Poles and Jews in Silesia and sentence "Poles and Jews were classified as sub-humans by Nazi Germany and subjected to campaign of genocide involving mass murder and ethnic cleansing, with their extermination as final goal" and wiki-link to appropriate articles.-- Yemote ( talk) 19:20, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Rsloch-do you voice any objection towards my sentence about Nazi genocide in Silesia against Jews and Poles? Or is it acceptable? Feel free to discuss other issues on my talk page or on appropriate talk pages of articles. I would like to focus here on how we should describe the organized mass murder and genocide by Nazis in Silesia. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:17, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
"reinstate disputed text solves nothing" Good. You have now clarified that you dispute the text. However what are you exactly disputing about it? Poles and Jews were classified as subhumans and Nazis and targeted for extermination-this is a wide known historic fact accepted by mainstream history, so it can hardly be disputed. Unless you have any other argumentation to dispute the text I don't see why it should be removed. "If the Jews and Poles of Silesia were 'ethnically cleansed' so were the Germans living there" Your POV not mine. Population transfer is legal and accepted by international law and Germany transferred its legislative powers to Allies under unconditional surrender. However this is not the place to discuss this nor the proper section as we are discussing Nazi genocide against Poles and Jews here. If you want to push forward claims about population transfer of Germans do it in other more suitable discussion please. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:52, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I have the sense that Rsloch do not understand any other point of view except his own. Any attempt to go to a subject which he does not like lead to extended discussion of anything but the subject. If we ask him if he believe that the GENOCIDES occurred there in Silesia he will not answer. This GENOCIDE on East Europe appeared everywhere. I remind you that on the West were killed 5 million on East 30 million. It does not matter where it was matter who, in Silesia or further East. That can not be forgotten.Are you going to say Rsloch that Poles and Jews were treated differently in Silesia then in other part of Poland? -- Yemote ( talk) 19:41, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
"There is a compromise on the table" You seem to forget that three other users than agreed to include a version that you are contesting. It is certainly the most supported compromise as of now. Since you were edit-warring I hoped you could tell what was your reason for deletion of supported version containing precise information about Nazi genocide.So far you have evaded giving direct answers I am afraid. As to adding links to wiki articles-that is ok, but we also need something in the article itself and ambigous sentence that Poles and Jews were subject to atrocities is too generic and doesn't in paint in full the whole picture and scale of Holocaust. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:32, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I am quite willing to accept a different version of the article with information about Nazi genocide as long as basic vital facts about fate of Jews and Poles in Silesia will remain: -that Poles and Jews were classified as subhumans -that they were victims of genocide, mass murder and ethnic cleansing -and that the ultimate goal of Nazi state was to exterminate them
How this information will be written can be discussed. Are you opposed to this information being in the article? -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:57, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
It is not inaccurate but precise."oppression was not a universal one description fits all event but rather a series of tragedies" Mainstream history disagrees with you and confirms that Nazis engaged in organized and systemic extermination of Poles and Jews. Looking at the text below where you deny that genocide of Jews in Silesia happened under the Nazis:"As to your claim that the Nazis conducted genocide in Silesia the facts do not support that" which goes against every mainstream history research. You are pushing a fringe and highly revisionist view that is not acceptable on Wikipedia. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:28, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Holocaust happened with different methods, including mass executions(which happened in Silesia among other forms of genocide). Your personal theories can't be used as source for Wikipedia. I will write an article about genocide in Silesia anyway and add link to it with proper description. As to "compromise" let other users who were in disagreement with you voice their opinion on entering claims that Nazis in Silesia didn't engage in genocide.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:43, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
The article claims that most of it is now within the borders of Poland, with small parts in the Czech Republic and Germany... But what is where? A map should compare Silesia with up to date maps to solve this question...
I placed a new version of this article on User:Baldhur/Silesia. I tried to find a middle course for every major conflict here, although that is not always easy. Please tell me what you think about this revision and if you could imagine to replace the current article with that version. -- Baldhur 15:31, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I know of course that the version is not perfect. So let me reword my question: What do you think about unprotecting the Silesia article, taking the version from User:Baldhur/Silesia as a provisional version, and then editing it in order to make a good article. If you oppose this proceeding, then I would be interested to hear how to go on in your opinion. Should this article remain protected forever? The discussion on this page has died away, our moderator disappeared, and the interest in this page has faded. So is my proposal a possible way to proceed or not? -- Baldhur 11:35, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I buy it. Space Cadet 03:18, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Silesia (Polish Śląsk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historic region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder (Odra) River and along the Sudeten mountains. It now lies mainly in southwestern Poland, but with a small part in the Czech Republic, and another small region, which only became part of Silesia in 1815, in Germany. It was originally a Polish province that became a possession of the Bohemian crown and passed with that crown to the Austrian Habsburgs in 1526. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945, when most of Silesia was annexed by Poland. In a local Silesian language or dialect Silesia is also called S´lonsk.
The Polish portion of Silesia, which forms the bulk of the historic region, is now divided into the voivodships of Lower Silesian Voivodship, Opole Voivodship and Silesian Voivodship. The small portion in the Czech Republic is joined with Moravia to form the Moravian-Silesian Region of that country, while the Görlitz area now is a part of the German state of Saxony. The largest city of Silesia is Wroclaw (German Breslau).
In a local, not the local language or dialect because only a quite small minority of the Polish Silesians actually use this dialect.
Baldhur's version looks better than the "protected" version. Even if it's not perfect, and even if it raises new objections from some contributors, I think we should use it. Should we vote on this? Should we even vote on "un-protecting" the article? -- Uncle Ed 19:35, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Count me in Szopen
Well, what if we (a) unprotect the Silesia article and (b) replace it with Baldhur's version? Then, if anyone has problems with one or more specific sections, we can delete those sections from the new article, move them to talk, and pick up the debate again.
If enough of us agree to the process, we can leave the article unprotected from now on, and work together in the talk page to iron out the differences.
I daresay most of the differences will be over how to describe the conflict between German and Polish ways of looking at the history of borders and place names. But in any case, the solution we can all agree on is to say that Group X largely regards it this way, while Group Y sees it that way... -- Uncle Ed 21:43, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I agree with replacing the current version with Baldhur's. But I would like to emphasize that the nature of the past problems was never "the conflict between German and Polish ways of looking at the history of borders and place names". Let's not simplify complex things and let's avoid labeling. No contributors are required to state their nationality, and even if they declare it, it should not be a factor of their reliability. Besides, I don't recall anybody openly labeling himself as German in this discussion since User:H.J. So Ed, do not place this thing in a drawer "Polish-German antagonism", because I would never contribute to something like that. -- Space Cadet 22:22, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Unprotected. -- Uncle Ed 21:15, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Great! Are we doing "Gdansk" next? Space Cadet 21:59, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Well, I've changed about Baldhur's version to add in history and remove the third paragraph, which was weak. Still could use some work. As for Gdansk, as I recall there's still a great deal of disagreement. But surely we can all agree that Danzig should be bolded somewhere near the top of the article? (I'll continue discussion at Talk:Gdansk). john 22:07, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I also suggest we move the name in "Silesian" dialect to "Demographics", "Name of the region" or something. According to the last Polish census (2002), 70,000 people speak this dialect. Silesia has 10 Million inhabitants. A name in a dialect spoken by 0,7 % of the present-day (not included the exiled) inhabitants of the region, is hardly worth to mention in the first paragraph. -- Nico 19:14, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Zero made a suggestion on the mailing list, which (I hope) is irrelevant to this article (but just in case... ;-)
We could have an official version and a draft version. As I understand it, rather than say this article's neutrality or facts are disputed we could have an undisputed version at Silesia and draft version at Silesia (draft).
We would all agree that some trustworthy soul would copy undisputed text from the draft version to the main version.
This is the, um, "reverse" of my earlier proposal to have an alternate version at Silesia (moderated).
Don't worry, I'm not going to jump ahead and start doing anything. My role as Mediator is merely to lubricate the gears. I don't want to turn the crank. -- Uncle Ed 16:51, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I don't think there's anything wrong, per se, with the changes that Nico has been making, but I think all of us should be running by any suggested changes at the talk page before making them, given the level of dispute which this article has caused. john 00:29, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Indeed you did. I have no particular opinion on that subject. Let us wait and see if anyone else says anything. john 01:41, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I noticed there was a fired up discussion about this page, but that noone has worked on it for some time, so I went ahead and formatted the text a bit. Hope it works OK for everyone. Oh, I also took down the attention tag - if someone thinks it's still neede, just put it right back! (although I think the page looks OK now, aside from section stubs...) Karol 22:53, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
According to the 2002 Polish census, 170,000 people considered themselves to be 'Silesian' rather than Polish. That would make them Poland's largest minority. So, are the Silesians simply ethnic Poles "insufficiently aware of their Polishness" or do they constitute a separate West Slavic ethnicity? It seems even the Polish government doesn't have a concise policy towards the 'Silesians'. According to Warsaw, the Silesians are not a nation, and, therefore, cannot be considered as a "minority", even though they constitute an "ethnic group".
Moreover, does anybody know if Prussia/Germany recognized a distinct Silesian ethnicity? Or were the pre-WWII Slavic inhabitants of Silesia simply considered to be Polish?
The information about the Jewish population given in the Demographics section is confusing:
==> How could the Jewish population of East upper Silesia be twice the size of the Jewish population of all of Silesia? What year does the 90,000-100,000 figure refer to?
==> How did the Jewish population of Lower Silesia at the end of the war come to be much larger than the Jewish population of all of Silesia before the war, especially after the majority of the Jews had been deported and murdered?
"Most of Silesia was conquered by Prussia in 1742, later becoming part of the German Empire, the Weimar Republic and Nazi Germany up to 1945. After World War I the easternmost part of this region was awarded to Poland by the victorious Allies"
... I think World War II was intended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.77.210.51 ( talk) 17:57, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
In the intro, the following is stated:
Silesian German: Schlesien
However, the etymology section states:
Silesian German: Schläsing
Anyone know which one is correct? -- IP.303Talk 05:22, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
Propositum, some your changes are very controversial, for example:
If you have different views - ok, but must to be a consensus for these changes. Franek K. ( talk) 10:56, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
And some nores about Propositum lead
Hi, I am a history fan and a citizen of the Czech Republic. I've never heard that a part of Silesia belongs to Slovakia. Which part, can you specify please? Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iarostgo ( talk • contribs) 09:15, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
... plebiscite to decide the issue in 1921, whose results (disputed by Poland) were skewed by the German settler population.
What in the world is meant or implied here? As far as I am aware, the post-WWI plebescite reflected the distribution of German and Polish residents in Upper Silesia. What is meant by "settlers"? Surely, we're not suggesting that the millions of Germans inhabiting Silesia before WWII were recent arrivals. Sca ( talk) 19:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
It's very difficult to treat Silesia as a extant political or cultural entity. Historical Silesia now exists as four very distinct, independent areas (Lower, Opole, Upper and Czech) that have little to do with each other politically or culturally. The fragmentation of historical Silesia occurred long before WWII. In fact, it dates back more than 800 years.
There's also the tiny fragment of historical Silesia around Goerlitz that's now part of Saxony. I don't know whether the residents of this area consider themselves Silesian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dominus Vobisdu ( talk • contribs) 08:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
It's also grossly misleading to say that Katowice is considered the "capital" of Silesia. It's only the capital of Upper Silesia, and has no influence over Lower, Opole or Czech Silesia, where no one identifies with Katowice in any way whatsoever. Part of the confusion stems from the fact that the administrative district of Upper Silesia is known simply as unqualified "Województwo Śląskie" in Polish instead of the more logical and accurate "Województwo Górnośląskie".
The article should make it clear that historical Silesia no longer exists as a single entity, and that it has been replaced by four distinct regions.
Cleaned up some Croatian nationalist blither and deleted some long unsourced and dubious etymological and cultural claims as well. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 08:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a place to POV as you perfectly know. You declare yourself as anti- Polish POV person - this is also POV in this point yours own. You have strong inclination which you should keep aside. Wikipedia is scientific work so only objective research should be taken in mind. You have strong animosity thus you are not objective by definition.
If I did an error just repair it. Step by step we will get consent. For me science and research is above all.
Regarding: >> PS. Where is State Country? and Duchies of Silesia to 14 century? Nonsense. And other errors.) <<
In table is “Status” not “State”. Any way the Duchies -- Cleaghyre ( talk) 16:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)-- Cleaghyre ( talk) 16:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)-- Cleaghyre ( talk) 16:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)were independent countries as for example in modern time Luxemburg or Monaco. So where is you point.
Now what is you next point in discussion, and please do not force you table. I created a table first you erased it and put yours. I improved mine including some of your suggestion and you erased it also informing you creation as only correct. This is not discussion and improvement this is editing war from you side. I welcome you next suggestion and proof to it. If you have no proof stop doing editing war, you will continue the war I will report you for blocking. -- Cleaghyre ( talk) 18:55, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
TO LukPol
Dear Sir, Although there was an error in Silesia article table this is no reason to call it mystification. It is harsh word. I do not know if you words regarding new Wikipedia user and teaching are related to me but it is not important how long one is editing Wikipedia. You proud and emotional approach is impolite lightly speaking. Some people are older and maybe at least equaly wel educated as you. Also the anti-Polish baner is offending, althougth you say is official should not exist and particulary polite person should not use it. Returning to improvement of the table: 1) Are you sure the German tribe was there from BC? If so please give a source of this assumption otherwise I propose simple “to 5th century” 2) Can you explain what is the idea about Independent Piast Duchies up to 20 centuries? I do not think it is reasonable. The Duchies lost thier independace ealier Regards -- Cleaghyre ( talk) 16:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Silesia currently has no borders because it has ceased to exist as a political entity both in Germany and Poland. The Oder/Neisse line is solely a border between Germany and Poland, and it's only relationship to Silesia is that it bisects the historical territory of that name. That is more of a coincidence than anything else, and not a particularly interesting or noteworthy coincidence at that. The fact that some of the territory formerly known as Silesia now lies withing the borders of Germany is already clearly stated in the article.
BTW, the provinces of (Upper) Silesia and Lower Silesia in Poland are purely administrative in nature, and not political. The borders of the provinces are arbitrary and can be changed at any time by the State of Poland. The names are arbitrary, too, and do not indicate that Silesia currently enjoys any measure of sovereignty or autonomy. Poland has no political divisions, unlike Germany or the United States, which are federations of politically distinct units. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 22:18, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
This is obviously a single source, partly biased. In fact, not all left Silesia after the war - many had to stay as the were needed as workes in an industrialized zone. Where should the 1,1million people in the 80es and 90es moving to Germany come from? All of them working in mines? This part is rubbish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.11.13.149 ( talk) 21:17, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
You seem to forget the re-population after the ethnic cleansing. Aside from the native Poles of Upper Silesia who stayed (I don't know how many fled to Germany like the Masurians of East Prussia), you had Poles who were likewise ethnically cleansed from Eastern Galicia and the Wilno region split between Belarus and Lithuania move into the void left by the Germans. You also had Poles immigrate from the over-crowded regions of central Poland (former Congress Poland) and Western Galicia following the war. On top of that, you have the population increase of Poland as a whole following WWII and the Cold War economic migration to Silesia from other parts of Poland for economic reasons. Prussia1231 ( talk) 02:58, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
'Shilingiai' in Lithuanian language literaly means 'pine forest people' and 'shilas' is 'a pine forest'...these names appeared in this region prior slavs developed their language and germans were still living in Gotland...moreover the main river Oder in Lithuanian language is 'Udra' which is 'an otter'. http://on.lt/geruliai 90.219.127.67 ( talk) 02:09, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
I thought the Celtic Boi (original Bohemaians) first settled this land during Roman times???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.194.69.231 ( talk) 20:39, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
I had to wrote that. I come from Hungary and that's the reason why I'm objectiv. I'm a historian. I know a lot about Poland because I'm studying slavistic. You know, knowledge about slav people.
1)Lusatia aren't on SIlesia. Luzatia people are individual slowian people. They belong to Silesia only during german ocupation. It was from XVIII century to 1945 year. That's why I'm asking to remove that Silesia is now on the german side. It's situated in Poland and Czech Republic. Silesia is ending on the Kwisa and Bobr river.
2)For me, Nico, you are a tipical german nazist. Sorry, but you want to incline history to be comfortable to you. I think, that you didn'r read any book about Silesia, and if you did that, it was the book from Joseph Goebbels century.
3)You are and idiot, sca. You think that people at Silesia know german language? They don't know this language, don't betray people. I was many times at Upper Silesia and I saw that in schools teachers are learning their language - polish, and to choose english, spanish, french or russian. If you are so smart, come here (at silesia) and try to speak german. They will laugh at you.
4)On Silesia (10 mln people) according to nationality registration there is 96% polish people. The rest is the german less or people declaring silesia nationality (which doesn't exist).
5)FACTS :
-Generic people here are slav. Name silesia is also slowian and it became grom Sleza mountain and Sleza river. They are the latest probate analysis. They are the facts.
-first polish setntense were told exactly at silesia (day ac ya pobrusza a ty pocziway)
-Silesia writers from XV, XVI and XVII century Szymon Pastorius, Olbrycht Strumienski, Walenty Rozdzieński wrote IN POLISH. Though german nationalism and destroying polish humanity
-polish scientist dr Alina Kowalska demonstrated that city and vilage people at silesia in XVI and XVII century know how to speak only in polish.
-Silesia was german only for 200 years.
And it's all facts. People, please, read a bit before you will write that piece of shit and so many lies. This article must be corrected. hungarius 19:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Medieval Silesia might have ended at the Kwisa and Bobr rivers, but Silesia since the 19th century does include parts of Lusatia. This article is not just about medieval Silesia, but about the history of a region called Silesia whose boundaries have changed numerous times. Other encyclopedias directly state that part of Silesia is in Germany.
Olessi:"but about the history of a region called Silesia". OK, I understand. Therefore in article IS sentence: "– Silesia became a province of Prussia. In 1815, the area around Görlitz was incorporated as a part of the province in an administrative reform." And you wrote [...] Columbia [...]. Look, Columbia write: "Politically, almost all of Silesia is divided between Poland and the Czech Republic." This is first sentence in introducion! I can't read more in Encarta, only "Silesia (Polish Ślask; German Schlesien; Czech Slezsko), historic region of Central Europe, mostly in what is now southwestern Poland, comprising the..." -- Hungarius 22:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
(Just to note, but User:Nico has not been contributing to wikipedia for more than a year now). On the substantive issue, I agree with Olessi - there is no reason not to mention the originally Lusatian part of Silesia that is now in Germany. Geographical names change their reference points, and it is not for wikipedia to decide what the "correct" meaning of a term is. john k 22:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi. I´m Silesian. It´s wrong that Silesia ends at Bobr and Kwisa. It´s true that some parts of Silesia are also a part of Lusatia. But that´s only a small part. The information of Encarta that a part of Silesia is in Brandenburg is wrong. The german Silesia is only a part of Saxony. In today Germany we call often only this parts Lusatia, there the shields are in german and sorbian. Görlitz and it´s inhabitants are very proud to be part of (Lower-)Silesia and they call themselves mostly (Lower-)Silesian. A county near Görlitz is also called "Niederschlesischer Oberlausitzkreis". A bank is also called "Niederschlesische Sparkasse". It´s defintely wrong to say Silesia ends at Bobr and Kwisa. Jonny84 13:35, 27. August 2005 (UTC)
On the wider issue, since there is a "Lower Lusatian District of Upper Lusatia" in Saxony, the article should mention that about one tenth of Silesia is situated in today's Germany. (Alright, it's Lusatia first and Silesia second - but that's not for me to resolve ;) ) Lasse Mar 31st, 06.
In relation to the Latin name [4].
I can see some reason for including the Latin name in this article, but why is it also being placed in articles of various small towns [5] [6]? VolunteerMarek 22:40, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Because it might prove beneficial to someone doing further research to include the Latin place name used in historic records, writings et al. Nightsturm ( talk) 23:26, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
There are two problems with your argument: 1. If Latin, then why not Fijian? There's an off chance that that "might prove beneficial to someone doing further research" as well, 2. If Glubczyce and Sudice why not Decatur, Alabama or Vedbæk, Denmark, or Anapaike Suriname? Just because there's some map from the 16th century with a Latin name on it? So as long as some document with a Latin name can be located we should include the Latin name? That's not policy. Please see WP:NAME.
Basically, Dominus above is not entirely correct - it is actually not sufficient to find one or two secondary sources which use the Latin name. What is necessary is to show that the Latin name is *extensively* used in secondary sources. VolunteerMarek 06:12, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
[7] - the edit summary here says "as before", which I take to mean that the previous edit summary applies. That was redundant and possibly inaccurate, summary with ref, reword. While that es might have applied to some OTHER aspect of this edit [8] I don't see in the least bit how it supports the continued attempts - sneaky ones too, since now Rsloch is trying to bury the removal among other changes - to remove the phrase " in German concentration camps". The sentence right after this one is about the expulsion of Germans. Omitting the clarifying phrase has the twisted effect of suggesting a common culpability for both phenomenon. I see no reason for removing this info EXCEPT a conscious attempt at suggesting that the concentration/extermination camps in question somehow weren't German.
Please stop. VolunteerMarek 18:31, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but while there is some useful info in most recent edits [9] some of it just doesn't make sense: The industry increased during German rule peaking in the 1970s during the People's Republic of Poland sounds like Germany ruled People's Republic of Poland. I also don't see any reason given for removal of info on modern day resources and environmental problems - why was this sourced info removed? Finally, why is stuff about 4th century BC being moved to the END of the section rather than the beginning where it logically and chronologically belongs? VolunteerMarek 20:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
The sound file for German pronunciation is good, but it would be nice to have an English pronunciation provided in IPA symbols. Lusanaherandraton 04:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Neither sound icon seems to be working in either language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.14.9 ( talk) 02:28, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
This interesting article is vitiated by a desire by at least one author to use Polish words as if they were English, resulting in mysterious terms such as "Voivodeship", "Silesian Przesieka" or the "Silesian Piasts". This is probably allied with the tendency to use Polish placenames in relation to periods when the official language was German, which is ahistorical and also confusing to the reader. It ought to be tidied up, if that can be done without offending anyone. Deipnosophista ( talk) 19:50, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Al%C4%85sk_nazwa
"Poglądy na temat nazwy "Śląsk": 1. Bradtkie w pocz. XIX w., nazwę Śląsk wywiódł od nazwy rzeki Ślęży, od której swoją nazwę mieli przyjąć Ślężanie (o których pisał Geograf Bawarski w poł. IX w.). Od lat 30 –ych XX wieku prowadzone były lingwistyczne badania Semkowicza i Rudnickiego, którzy uznali że nie jest prawdopodobne by rdzeń Sil- (jakoby pochodzący od Silingów) mógł się zmienić w: a) „Sleenzane” u Geografa Bawarskiego czy b) w „Zlasane” w dokumencie praskim z 1086 czy c) „Selenza”, w nazwie rzeki Ślęzy, w bulli papieża Hadriana IV z 1155 r. 2. Samo słowo Śląsk pochodzi od „ślęg” co oznacza wilgoć, słotę a to znajduje uzasadnienie w dużej aż po 500 m, wilgotności góry Ślęzy i rzeki Ślęzy płynącej przez rozległe mokradła. 3. Historiografia zna wiele przypadków określenia plemion nazwami rzeki. W odwrotnym kierunku odbywało się to raczej rzadko. Wskazywałoby to na nazwanie Ślężan od rzeki Ślęzy. 4. S. Rospond zbadał najdawniejsze dokumenty z XII i XIII wieku i zauważył że nazwy z tego okresu zapisywano w formie: Slesia, Slezia, Zlesensis. Forma „Silesia” zaczęła pojawiać się znacznie później – już w czasach nowożytnych, prawdopodobnie „za sprawą lektury Thietmara, który jako pierwszy słowiańskiej nazwie Śląsk nadał dostosowaną do grafiki i fonetyki niemieckiej formę Silensia”. 5. Wg wskazówek Ptolemeusza, Silingowie (od których wg niektórych naukowców niemieckich pochodzi nazwa Śląsk) zamieszkiwali tereny Łużyc. W związku z tym związek Silingów ze Śląskiem byłby niewielki. 6. Czeska nazwa Śląska brzmi Slesko czyli zaczyna się od Sle- a nie Sil-....(np. "Silesia" jak brzmi nazwa łacińska). 7. Nowe badania J. Udolpha przychylają się do twierdzenia że nazwa Śląsk pochodzi od nazwy Ślęży i wskazał przy tym na wiele plemion słowiańskiech, których nazwy pochodzą od rzek. Jego zdaniem nawet ewentualny rdzeń sil- nie wskazywałaby na germańskość nazwy, ponieważ rdzeń sil- spotyka się w nazwach wielu rzek np. Sile w Wenecji, Silla w Asturii, Silinka w Rosji. Swoje badania opisał w „Der Name Schlesien, [w:] Studia Onomastica et Indogermanica” – Graz 1995 i w „Der Name Schlesien [w] Opuscula Silesiaca” – Stuttgart 1998."
please translate... -- Hungarius 13:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
This is the English language Wikipedia. 81.131.16.68 16:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
'Shilingiai' in Lithuanian language literaly means 'pine forest people' and 'shilas' is 'a pine forest'...these names appeared in this region prior slavs developed their language and germans were still living in Gotland...moreover the main river Oder in Lithuanian language is 'Udra' which is 'an otter'.
90.219.127.67 (
talk)
02:05, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
A number of editors from varying standpoints (British, American, and Polish) have removed a table that a user from varying IP addresses wishes to add. I won't speak for others but I find the adding of such a table redundant as the data is already in the intro and the history section. It is also probably unique to this article. Hopefully this will end the bizarre messages on talk pages and threats in the history section. Rsloch ( talk) 22:41, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Re: [10]. The very outdated and largely irrelevant Gdansk vote applies to historical context. It is not an excuse to spam anachronistic German names all over the place, particularly when discussing the present day. If you want to put in German historical names in the history section, that's fine, but please keep them out of the Overview section as they do not belong there.
And please don't start edit wars, against several users to try and implement these changes against consensus. Thanks. Volunteer Marek 16:07, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
This edit [12] removed information about Jews being murdered in Birkenau gas chambers and changed information that they were murdered in Auschwitz gas chambers into "killed". I think information about up to 20,000 Jews murdered in Birkenau gas chambers should be restored and we also should write that in Auschwitz they were murdered in gas chambers as well(killing could mean various things, and the extermination in gas chambers is quite important). What do others think?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be an issue over some, if not all, of my recent edits to this article. I will explain my reasoning.
The first edit was to remove boilerplate text which was very generalised, was in part factually inaccurate, contained typos and was oddly worded. I incorporated material relating to differing estimates another editor had added. This was reverted because 'great difference between "expelled" and "exterminated"'. The text I added clearly states that the Jews of Silesia were first expelled to ghettos and the General Government from which many were later sent to work and death camps including the line 'Most Jews in Silesia were exterminated by the Nazis'.
I would also draw attention to similar discussions above. Rsloch ( talk) 19:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC) You have deleted information about Nazi atrocities and that Jews from Silesia were murdered in gas chambers. Please don't do this as it is well sourced. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
You have changed the information in a way that might misinform. The goal of Nazi Germany was to exterminate Jews and Poles not just expel them. To achieve this Germany used mass murder and ethnic cleansing-this should be clear, and I have added necessary information. Stating that Nazi Germany expelled Poles is incorrect as it misses the whole issue of declaring them subhumans to be exterminated and use of mass murder. And saying that Jews and Poles were to be removed is simply to euphemistic as it might led to misunderstanding that they were just to be re-located. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 10:07, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
For example you edit includes information "One of the goals of Nazi occupation, particularly in Upper Silesia, was to expel the Polish Silesian population" which is completely inaccurate as as Poles were to be exterminated not only expelled. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 12:40, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
"can we all agree to edit rather than just revert?" You have continued to revert three different editors who tried to restore information about Nazi atrocities you deleted. May I suggest you led by example? As to the rest. The reason for mass murder of Poles and Jews in Silesia needs to be shown-and the fact that they were considered untermenschen is important. Also while Poles were ethnically cleansed(expelled is wrong word here), the fact that they were mass murdered and targeted for extermination is far more important. Your edits show inaccurate and distorted picture of events in Silesia. We can't show Nazi treatment of Poles or Jews in Silesia as just "expulsion"(in fact the very word is wrong-it should be ethnic cleansing), as their primary goal and actions were genocide. In your answer I see no argument for that and I am afraid that I will continue to see a reason to restore valid and accurate information about Nazi atrocities in the region.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:32, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
No, not at all. You haven't explained anything about why you have replaced information that Poles and Jews were exterminated as subhumans with information that they were expelled.Please do.Otherwise I see no reason not to restore this vital piece of information.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the warring is over this phrase, "The Polish population of Silesia was reduced to a worker class status and mistreated by their new "German overlords"", reverted in this edit. Both versions, by the way, suffer from poor grammar. I don't know if the entire dispute boils down to this, but if it does, that's particularly silly. (I'm not here to discuss content, but the overlord language is a bit not so encyclopedic.) Rsloch, Dominus Vobisdu, and Yemote, you'll have to figure this out here, what's going on in this edit war and how you will reach consensus. Afterward, Estlandia will proofread. Drmies ( talk) 21:38, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
In first place do not enter with Warnings on my talk page and remove my Warnings on yours. That is good that you finally start asking questions, it is bad you do not answer for mine. The answer for you question is that you reverted MyMoloboaccount edit which strongly underlined German Nazi work, namely GENOCIDE. Secondly MyMoloboaccount say you have no his consensus to that and I agree, I do not give a consensus for you actions too. Third, you provided some resources regarding: ``Silesia has historically been an ethnically diverse region`` it is free expanding authors sequences to you POV benefits. Nobody says that Silesia was always ethnically mix area. It is simple not true. Introducing it as top sentence in section `History`is invasion and manipulation for POV. My proposal is to accept the fact German Nazi made GENOCIDE and that Silesia was not always ethnically mix area. Slavs entered the deserted area in in VI or VII AD, created there their states and nations. Only from XIV AD some German settlement start there on the permission of Polish Royal dynasty. They are the facts.-- Yemote ( talk) 18:48, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
____
Summation: History books does not start from overstated conclusion it follow the chronology. Silesia was not ethnically diverse region for earliest time until XIV century. At least you or anybody has knowledge of it. Additional from VII to XIV century there was only Slavic culture there. Thus you statement; "Silesia has historically been an ethnically diverse region" as the top sentence is WRONG. Let me know exactly what citation from you resources would support the generalization for early period of Silesia's history. Give me the page and citation. If not it is simple you mislead other and start edit war, and will be send to appropriate notice board. -- Yemote ( talk) 20:08, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Interesting point Yemote, I think I can find a source confirming that Germanization of Silesia was relatively late event. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:21, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
"It clearly didn't" There are whole books on genocide in Silesia, at this point you are just repeating your personal theory. As to Gross-Rosen it was used in genocide and to murder people as well, and Auschwitz Birkenau was part of Silesian Gau. I will add sources on genocide once the article is unblocked.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:43, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
It is enough to see the Wikipedia article Extermination camps there are one of mine death camp Gross-Rosen in Silesia, Jewish Ghetto in Bendzin and “surprise” for Rsloch - Auschwitz - in German Provinz Oberschilesien. I am sure he will still assume the GENOCIDE was not performed by Germans in Silesia. Gross-Rossen was work camp? For God sake, 40,000 died on site and in evacuation transports -1/3 of total inmates. For Rsloch murdering of tens of thousands has to be done in specific way to be considered GENOCIDE. He is definitely Holocaust denial. I have to investigate if this can be put in court in US, here is possible to put a foreign citizen to respond.-- Yemote ( talk) 00:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Considering how wiggly Rsloch dancing around the so call German ancient tribes and eternal ethnic diversity in Silesia he has definitely very clear POV with inclination to revert historical fact for "ideological" reasons. It can not be tolerated.-- Yemote ( talk) 00:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Rsloch you did not provided the page #s and citation from the resources you add to the top sentence of chapter History. I cannot found any reasonable paragraph which can support you makeup.-- Yemote ( talk) 00:20, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Since a dispute has occurred I would like to know opinion of others how should we describe the campaign of organized mass murder and genocide against Poles and Jews in Silesia during Second World War? Current euphemistic sentence that atrocities happened seems lacking as it could indicate isolated incidents. I believe sentence in line of "Poles and Jews were classified as sub-humans by Nazi Germany and subjected to campaign of genocide involving mass murder and ethnic cleansing, with their extermination as final goal" would be far more appropriate. What to others think? -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 13:09, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
So a short subsection titled Nazi Genocide of Poles and Jews in Silesia and sentence "Poles and Jews were classified as sub-humans by Nazi Germany and subjected to campaign of genocide involving mass murder and ethnic cleansing, with their extermination as final goal" and wiki-link to appropriate articles would be acceptable?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 16:25, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I am for the proposal of a short subsection titled Nazi Genocide of Poles and Jews in Silesia and sentence "Poles and Jews were classified as sub-humans by Nazi Germany and subjected to campaign of genocide involving mass murder and ethnic cleansing, with their extermination as final goal" and wiki-link to appropriate articles.-- Yemote ( talk) 19:20, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Rsloch-do you voice any objection towards my sentence about Nazi genocide in Silesia against Jews and Poles? Or is it acceptable? Feel free to discuss other issues on my talk page or on appropriate talk pages of articles. I would like to focus here on how we should describe the organized mass murder and genocide by Nazis in Silesia. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:17, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
"reinstate disputed text solves nothing" Good. You have now clarified that you dispute the text. However what are you exactly disputing about it? Poles and Jews were classified as subhumans and Nazis and targeted for extermination-this is a wide known historic fact accepted by mainstream history, so it can hardly be disputed. Unless you have any other argumentation to dispute the text I don't see why it should be removed. "If the Jews and Poles of Silesia were 'ethnically cleansed' so were the Germans living there" Your POV not mine. Population transfer is legal and accepted by international law and Germany transferred its legislative powers to Allies under unconditional surrender. However this is not the place to discuss this nor the proper section as we are discussing Nazi genocide against Poles and Jews here. If you want to push forward claims about population transfer of Germans do it in other more suitable discussion please. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 17:52, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I have the sense that Rsloch do not understand any other point of view except his own. Any attempt to go to a subject which he does not like lead to extended discussion of anything but the subject. If we ask him if he believe that the GENOCIDES occurred there in Silesia he will not answer. This GENOCIDE on East Europe appeared everywhere. I remind you that on the West were killed 5 million on East 30 million. It does not matter where it was matter who, in Silesia or further East. That can not be forgotten.Are you going to say Rsloch that Poles and Jews were treated differently in Silesia then in other part of Poland? -- Yemote ( talk) 19:41, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
"There is a compromise on the table" You seem to forget that three other users than agreed to include a version that you are contesting. It is certainly the most supported compromise as of now. Since you were edit-warring I hoped you could tell what was your reason for deletion of supported version containing precise information about Nazi genocide.So far you have evaded giving direct answers I am afraid. As to adding links to wiki articles-that is ok, but we also need something in the article itself and ambigous sentence that Poles and Jews were subject to atrocities is too generic and doesn't in paint in full the whole picture and scale of Holocaust. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:32, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I am quite willing to accept a different version of the article with information about Nazi genocide as long as basic vital facts about fate of Jews and Poles in Silesia will remain: -that Poles and Jews were classified as subhumans -that they were victims of genocide, mass murder and ethnic cleansing -and that the ultimate goal of Nazi state was to exterminate them
How this information will be written can be discussed. Are you opposed to this information being in the article? -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:57, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
It is not inaccurate but precise."oppression was not a universal one description fits all event but rather a series of tragedies" Mainstream history disagrees with you and confirms that Nazis engaged in organized and systemic extermination of Poles and Jews. Looking at the text below where you deny that genocide of Jews in Silesia happened under the Nazis:"As to your claim that the Nazis conducted genocide in Silesia the facts do not support that" which goes against every mainstream history research. You are pushing a fringe and highly revisionist view that is not acceptable on Wikipedia. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:28, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Holocaust happened with different methods, including mass executions(which happened in Silesia among other forms of genocide). Your personal theories can't be used as source for Wikipedia. I will write an article about genocide in Silesia anyway and add link to it with proper description. As to "compromise" let other users who were in disagreement with you voice their opinion on entering claims that Nazis in Silesia didn't engage in genocide.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:43, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
The article claims that most of it is now within the borders of Poland, with small parts in the Czech Republic and Germany... But what is where? A map should compare Silesia with up to date maps to solve this question...
I placed a new version of this article on User:Baldhur/Silesia. I tried to find a middle course for every major conflict here, although that is not always easy. Please tell me what you think about this revision and if you could imagine to replace the current article with that version. -- Baldhur 15:31, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I know of course that the version is not perfect. So let me reword my question: What do you think about unprotecting the Silesia article, taking the version from User:Baldhur/Silesia as a provisional version, and then editing it in order to make a good article. If you oppose this proceeding, then I would be interested to hear how to go on in your opinion. Should this article remain protected forever? The discussion on this page has died away, our moderator disappeared, and the interest in this page has faded. So is my proposal a possible way to proceed or not? -- Baldhur 11:35, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I buy it. Space Cadet 03:18, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Silesia (Polish Śląsk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historic region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder (Odra) River and along the Sudeten mountains. It now lies mainly in southwestern Poland, but with a small part in the Czech Republic, and another small region, which only became part of Silesia in 1815, in Germany. It was originally a Polish province that became a possession of the Bohemian crown and passed with that crown to the Austrian Habsburgs in 1526. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945, when most of Silesia was annexed by Poland. In a local Silesian language or dialect Silesia is also called S´lonsk.
The Polish portion of Silesia, which forms the bulk of the historic region, is now divided into the voivodships of Lower Silesian Voivodship, Opole Voivodship and Silesian Voivodship. The small portion in the Czech Republic is joined with Moravia to form the Moravian-Silesian Region of that country, while the Görlitz area now is a part of the German state of Saxony. The largest city of Silesia is Wroclaw (German Breslau).
In a local, not the local language or dialect because only a quite small minority of the Polish Silesians actually use this dialect.
Baldhur's version looks better than the "protected" version. Even if it's not perfect, and even if it raises new objections from some contributors, I think we should use it. Should we vote on this? Should we even vote on "un-protecting" the article? -- Uncle Ed 19:35, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Count me in Szopen
Well, what if we (a) unprotect the Silesia article and (b) replace it with Baldhur's version? Then, if anyone has problems with one or more specific sections, we can delete those sections from the new article, move them to talk, and pick up the debate again.
If enough of us agree to the process, we can leave the article unprotected from now on, and work together in the talk page to iron out the differences.
I daresay most of the differences will be over how to describe the conflict between German and Polish ways of looking at the history of borders and place names. But in any case, the solution we can all agree on is to say that Group X largely regards it this way, while Group Y sees it that way... -- Uncle Ed 21:43, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I agree with replacing the current version with Baldhur's. But I would like to emphasize that the nature of the past problems was never "the conflict between German and Polish ways of looking at the history of borders and place names". Let's not simplify complex things and let's avoid labeling. No contributors are required to state their nationality, and even if they declare it, it should not be a factor of their reliability. Besides, I don't recall anybody openly labeling himself as German in this discussion since User:H.J. So Ed, do not place this thing in a drawer "Polish-German antagonism", because I would never contribute to something like that. -- Space Cadet 22:22, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Unprotected. -- Uncle Ed 21:15, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Great! Are we doing "Gdansk" next? Space Cadet 21:59, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Well, I've changed about Baldhur's version to add in history and remove the third paragraph, which was weak. Still could use some work. As for Gdansk, as I recall there's still a great deal of disagreement. But surely we can all agree that Danzig should be bolded somewhere near the top of the article? (I'll continue discussion at Talk:Gdansk). john 22:07, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I also suggest we move the name in "Silesian" dialect to "Demographics", "Name of the region" or something. According to the last Polish census (2002), 70,000 people speak this dialect. Silesia has 10 Million inhabitants. A name in a dialect spoken by 0,7 % of the present-day (not included the exiled) inhabitants of the region, is hardly worth to mention in the first paragraph. -- Nico 19:14, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Zero made a suggestion on the mailing list, which (I hope) is irrelevant to this article (but just in case... ;-)
We could have an official version and a draft version. As I understand it, rather than say this article's neutrality or facts are disputed we could have an undisputed version at Silesia and draft version at Silesia (draft).
We would all agree that some trustworthy soul would copy undisputed text from the draft version to the main version.
This is the, um, "reverse" of my earlier proposal to have an alternate version at Silesia (moderated).
Don't worry, I'm not going to jump ahead and start doing anything. My role as Mediator is merely to lubricate the gears. I don't want to turn the crank. -- Uncle Ed 16:51, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I don't think there's anything wrong, per se, with the changes that Nico has been making, but I think all of us should be running by any suggested changes at the talk page before making them, given the level of dispute which this article has caused. john 00:29, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Indeed you did. I have no particular opinion on that subject. Let us wait and see if anyone else says anything. john 01:41, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I noticed there was a fired up discussion about this page, but that noone has worked on it for some time, so I went ahead and formatted the text a bit. Hope it works OK for everyone. Oh, I also took down the attention tag - if someone thinks it's still neede, just put it right back! (although I think the page looks OK now, aside from section stubs...) Karol 22:53, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
According to the 2002 Polish census, 170,000 people considered themselves to be 'Silesian' rather than Polish. That would make them Poland's largest minority. So, are the Silesians simply ethnic Poles "insufficiently aware of their Polishness" or do they constitute a separate West Slavic ethnicity? It seems even the Polish government doesn't have a concise policy towards the 'Silesians'. According to Warsaw, the Silesians are not a nation, and, therefore, cannot be considered as a "minority", even though they constitute an "ethnic group".
Moreover, does anybody know if Prussia/Germany recognized a distinct Silesian ethnicity? Or were the pre-WWII Slavic inhabitants of Silesia simply considered to be Polish?
The information about the Jewish population given in the Demographics section is confusing:
==> How could the Jewish population of East upper Silesia be twice the size of the Jewish population of all of Silesia? What year does the 90,000-100,000 figure refer to?
==> How did the Jewish population of Lower Silesia at the end of the war come to be much larger than the Jewish population of all of Silesia before the war, especially after the majority of the Jews had been deported and murdered?
"Most of Silesia was conquered by Prussia in 1742, later becoming part of the German Empire, the Weimar Republic and Nazi Germany up to 1945. After World War I the easternmost part of this region was awarded to Poland by the victorious Allies"
... I think World War II was intended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.77.210.51 ( talk) 17:57, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
In the intro, the following is stated:
Silesian German: Schlesien
However, the etymology section states:
Silesian German: Schläsing
Anyone know which one is correct? -- IP.303Talk 05:22, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
Propositum, some your changes are very controversial, for example:
If you have different views - ok, but must to be a consensus for these changes. Franek K. ( talk) 10:56, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
And some nores about Propositum lead
Hi, I am a history fan and a citizen of the Czech Republic. I've never heard that a part of Silesia belongs to Slovakia. Which part, can you specify please? Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iarostgo ( talk • contribs) 09:15, 18 August 2016 (UTC)