The contents of the Waqur Shah of Kashmir page were merged into Shah Mir on 23 December 2021. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Waqur Shah of Kashmir was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 9 October 2021 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Shah Mir. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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One must only go by Jonaraja since he was a honest person and was close to Budshah the direct descendant of Shah Mira. Jonaraja clearly informs us that Shah Mira's family were recent converts to Islam (based on information from Budshah and describes their ancestors as Chandravanshi Kshatriyas from a region close to Kashmir. That is authentic history rest is imagination and planted history for political gains. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:A180:F700:EC77:6A6E:56F5:72CC ( talk) 18:54, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
[Link to the original content [1]]
@ Barthateslisa: Your editing on this article has been highly disappointing. I have given a reliable source (the Rafiq article) along with a link to the PDF file and page numbers. Yet, you have deleted or modified this content numerous times without once checking the source 25 Oct, 17 Nov, 18 Nov, 18 Nov, 19 Nov, 21 Nov, 21 Nov, 21 Nov, 21 Nov. This is highly inexplicable. By any standards of edit-warring, this is excessive. As such, you immediately qualify for a block.
Please look at the source now, and tell us what part of the content you believe is unsourced. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 20:05, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
The Kashmiri and Mughal historians recount different legends about the ancestry of Shah Mır. According to Jonaraja, Shah Mır was the descendant of Partha (Arjuna) of Mahabharata fame. Abu ’l-Fadl cAllamı, Nizam al-Dın and Firishta also state that Shah Mır traced his descent to Arjuna, the basis of their account being Jonaraja’s Rajatarangını, which Mulla cAbd al-Qadir Bada’unı translated into Persian at Akbar’s orders. It is likely that either Jonaraja, in order to glorify the family of his patron (Zayn al-cAbidın, a direct descendant of Shah Mır: see below), or Shah Mır, after coming to the throne, worked out an apocryphal genealogy connecting himself with the legendary heroes of the past; this was a common practice with rulers and dignitaries of those days. [1]
References
- ^ Baloch, N. A.; Rafiqi, A. Q. (1998), "The Regions of Sind, Baluchistan, Multan and Kashmir" (PDF), in M. S. Asimov; C. E. Bosworth (eds.), History of Civilizations of Central Asia, Vol. IV, Part 1 — The age of achievement: A.D. 750 to the end of the fifteenth century — The historical, social and economic setting, UNESCO, p. 311, ISBN 978-92-3-103467-1
"It is likely that either Jonaraja, in order to glorify the family of his patron (Zayn ¯ al-cAbidin, a direct descendant of Shah Mir, or Shah Mir, after coming to the throne, worked out an apocryphal genealogy connecting himself with the legendary heroes of the past; this was a common practice with rulers and dignitaries of those days. According to some Persian chronicles of Kashmir, Shah Miır was a descendant of the rulers of Swat, but it is more probable that his ancestors were of Turkish or Persian origin and had migrated to Swat..."
The author is himself denying those claims. Barthateslisa ( talk) 12:28, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
( 2600:1001:B010:93FE:9DF5:8A11:14FB:3A56 ( talk) 14:14, 23 November 2016 (UTC))
It will be corrected as per the norm. Barthateslisa ( talk) 15:25, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
@ Barthateslisa:, There are two historical sources that Rafiq is drawing from, Jonaraja and Persian chronicles. As a good scholar, he mentioned both of them and stated which he favours. That is exactly what we are doing. If you want more sources, use Google books. Rafiq thinks that Shah Mir's family were Turk/Persian immigrants. He has no evidence for it. We say that he thinks so. That is the best we can do. You can choose to believe what you want to believe. You can't impose those beliefs on Wikipedia.
You also appear to have your own private idea of what NPOV is, which is sadly wrong. The
WP:NPOV page says that it means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
All I see from you is "editorial bias", personal opinions on what history is, what mythology is and so on. Please spare us your opinions and stick to sources. --
Kautilya3 (
talk) 16:19, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
What is more untrustworthy than an IP which keeps on changing, and its not about voting here, if a biased POV is reflected in the content it will be corrected. Of all the available versions for Mir's early life, you can't selectively pick one and add it as primary. No bias and POV on Wikipedia is allowed, be it of many or one. Barthateslisa ( talk) 04:42, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
@ Barthateslisa: I am getting lost with all the noise in this discussion. Do you still have any objections to the original content I contributed? If so, please state them. Please focus on the content, and not the editors. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:23, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Barthateslisa Please demonstrate your claim that this is a fringe theory. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 16:43, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
It is likely to be concocted history, which is dismissing it. If you want different wording, please suggest it. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 13:38, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I see that you are merely repeating the same old arguments without addressing any of my points. I think we have reached the end of the road here. I will take to WP:DRN. Please continue the discussion there. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 14:38, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Brother, hard to believe one can be so ignorant but Shah Mir was a tribe called Swati of Dehqan/ Tajik origin therefore, was styled as persian. He didn't come from persia. Now this tribe is counted amongst Pathans but aren't so and and part of Mountain Tajiks in North Western Afghanistan and majority live in Mansehra and Azad Kashmir. Regards Azmarai76 ( talk) 17:47, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
There is continuing battling about the origins of Shah Mir [2]. As far as I can see, people are merely POV-pushing. There are two sources: Jonaraja and the unnamed Persian chronicles. Most reliable sources accept Jonaraja. He was after all the court historian of one of his descendants. What we have here in the article is perfect NPOV, as perfect as it can be. Anybody contesting it should express their views here instead of edit-warring. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 19:09, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
An elaboration is in order, regarding the discussion and presumtions on this page -- about the terms "Swad-Gabar" and "Swat". This is a very common misconception, which has unfortunately been fostered by the almost total lack of access to the actual information in this regard.
Swat takes its name from its Sawadi Tajik rulers -- a community of administrative "Dehqans" of ancient Persian origin, thought to have existed here since the days when Gandhara and its environs were a longstanding Satrapy of Imperial Persia in the days before Islam. Sawad was a kingdom that extended far beyond the area presently known as Swat -- and at its height covered most of Gandhara between Parwan in present day Afghanistan and the Kashmiri town of Baramula near the Jhelum River. One of the areas under their control was the town of Panj, on the Amu (Oxus) River, and now in Tajikistan.
Sawadis and Sawad (Swat) are mentioned as such by the Timurid Babar in his celebrated "Baburnama"; he encountered and helped overthrow the last Sawadi King, Sultan Owais and facilitated the takeover of Sawad by the invading Yusufzai Pashtuns in 1520. All of this is recorded but hardly mentioned. After Sawad was taken over and repopulated by the Pashtuns 500 years ago, they corrupted the pronounciation of its name to the currently used "Swat".
As regards "Gabar" it does not mean "neighbourhood" as some have surmised here, on this page; it is infact the early Muslim pejorative term for Zoroastrian, "Gabr" -- which is what the Sawadis originally were, and like many Khorasani Dehqans they retained their original religion for quite a while till after the arrival of Islam in these parts. They therefore came to be called "Gabaris" and the name has stuck long after they converted...even now, the dominant tribal section of the Sawadi community (now called Swatis) is called "Gabari". One last item needing mention in relation to the above facts is that the Sawadis/Swatis spoke the Middle Persian dialect called Gabari or "Zoroastrian Dari" which is still spoken in an around Yazd and Kerman in Iran. It is on record that this language died out among them after the Pashtuns dislodged them from Sawad/Swat beginning 500 years ago. In substantiation of this, genetic investigations have also revealed that key Sawadi paternal lineages originated in and around Kerman and Sistan. [by Arif Akhundzada] 116.71.7.15 ( talk) 23:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
MAJOR REFERENCES REGARDING SWATIS
PRIMARY
Tawarikh-e-Hafiz Rehmat Khani Tazkira-tul-Ibrar wal Ashrar (A. Darweza) Makhzan-e-Afghani (N. Harawi)
MODERN Notes on Afghanistan and Baluchistan (H.G.W Raverty) Hayat-i-Afghani (Hayat M. Khan) The Pathans (Olaf Caroe)
ADDITIONAL Khulasat-ul-Ansaab Zakhira-tul-Mulook Tabaqat-e-Naseri Baburnama Alamgirnama Siyar-ul-Mutakherin
MAIN Tajik Swati wa Mumlikat-e-Gibar Tareekh kai Ainay Mein (M. Akhtar) 203.135.44.95 ( talk) 22:01, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
These are all WP:PRIMARY sources. You can believe them as you wish, but they are of no use for Wikipedia. Only reliable WP:SECONDARY sources, contemporary historical scholarship can be cited for history on Wikipedia. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 10:47, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Noorullah21 I found more than enough WP:RS for Shah Mir's origins in Swat after a simple search. By far, this seems to be mainstream view. That's why I moved it up in the section.
Beside, can you provide more information about Aziz Beg (whether he is a historian) who traces his origins to Jalalabad? Sutyarashi ( talk) 08:57, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
The first Muslim dynasty of Kashmir was founded in 1324 by Shah Mìrzà, who was probably an Afghan warrior from Swat or a Qarauna Turk, possibly even a Tibetan
Shah - Mir Swatt ( probably an Afghan)
Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible.Your sources are simply too weak. If you were following WP:NPOV, you would have simply disregarded them. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 18:46, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
I was actually referring to A.Q. Rafiqi and others.
"According to some Persian chronicles of Kashmir, Shah Mır was a descendant of the rulers of Swat"
"Others trace his descent to rulers of Swat"
"Shah Mir, runaway descendant of rulers of Swat"
I agree with Kautilya in his analysis of sources, especially the one by Atlantic publishers. Its author does not specialise in Indian history and should not be used to cite for contentious content. Rest seems ok. Hope so you'd agree with the above suggested rewrite of the section. Sutyarashi ( talk) 02:00, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Tagging user @ Noorullah21, you reverted my edits on the article [12] stating they weren't an improvement. I'd like to debate that.
Jonarja was a contemporary poet/historian in the Shah Mir durbar and hence is a contemporary source. Which is why he should be stated first. The section was a mess and I divided it into contemporary and modern historian subsections. What's wrong in that?
I also added more further sources indicating a Khas origin, which I borrowed and added from the Shah Mir dynasty article.
Snippetjet ( talk) 06:43, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
The contents of the Waqur Shah of Kashmir page were merged into Shah Mir on 23 December 2021. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Waqur Shah of Kashmir was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 9 October 2021 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Shah Mir. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Shah Mir article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Shah Mir. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Shah Mir at the Reference desk. |
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
One must only go by Jonaraja since he was a honest person and was close to Budshah the direct descendant of Shah Mira. Jonaraja clearly informs us that Shah Mira's family were recent converts to Islam (based on information from Budshah and describes their ancestors as Chandravanshi Kshatriyas from a region close to Kashmir. That is authentic history rest is imagination and planted history for political gains. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:A180:F700:EC77:6A6E:56F5:72CC ( talk) 18:54, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
[Link to the original content [1]]
@ Barthateslisa: Your editing on this article has been highly disappointing. I have given a reliable source (the Rafiq article) along with a link to the PDF file and page numbers. Yet, you have deleted or modified this content numerous times without once checking the source 25 Oct, 17 Nov, 18 Nov, 18 Nov, 19 Nov, 21 Nov, 21 Nov, 21 Nov, 21 Nov. This is highly inexplicable. By any standards of edit-warring, this is excessive. As such, you immediately qualify for a block.
Please look at the source now, and tell us what part of the content you believe is unsourced. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 20:05, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
The Kashmiri and Mughal historians recount different legends about the ancestry of Shah Mır. According to Jonaraja, Shah Mır was the descendant of Partha (Arjuna) of Mahabharata fame. Abu ’l-Fadl cAllamı, Nizam al-Dın and Firishta also state that Shah Mır traced his descent to Arjuna, the basis of their account being Jonaraja’s Rajatarangını, which Mulla cAbd al-Qadir Bada’unı translated into Persian at Akbar’s orders. It is likely that either Jonaraja, in order to glorify the family of his patron (Zayn al-cAbidın, a direct descendant of Shah Mır: see below), or Shah Mır, after coming to the throne, worked out an apocryphal genealogy connecting himself with the legendary heroes of the past; this was a common practice with rulers and dignitaries of those days. [1]
References
- ^ Baloch, N. A.; Rafiqi, A. Q. (1998), "The Regions of Sind, Baluchistan, Multan and Kashmir" (PDF), in M. S. Asimov; C. E. Bosworth (eds.), History of Civilizations of Central Asia, Vol. IV, Part 1 — The age of achievement: A.D. 750 to the end of the fifteenth century — The historical, social and economic setting, UNESCO, p. 311, ISBN 978-92-3-103467-1
"It is likely that either Jonaraja, in order to glorify the family of his patron (Zayn ¯ al-cAbidin, a direct descendant of Shah Mir, or Shah Mir, after coming to the throne, worked out an apocryphal genealogy connecting himself with the legendary heroes of the past; this was a common practice with rulers and dignitaries of those days. According to some Persian chronicles of Kashmir, Shah Miır was a descendant of the rulers of Swat, but it is more probable that his ancestors were of Turkish or Persian origin and had migrated to Swat..."
The author is himself denying those claims. Barthateslisa ( talk) 12:28, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
( 2600:1001:B010:93FE:9DF5:8A11:14FB:3A56 ( talk) 14:14, 23 November 2016 (UTC))
It will be corrected as per the norm. Barthateslisa ( talk) 15:25, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
@ Barthateslisa:, There are two historical sources that Rafiq is drawing from, Jonaraja and Persian chronicles. As a good scholar, he mentioned both of them and stated which he favours. That is exactly what we are doing. If you want more sources, use Google books. Rafiq thinks that Shah Mir's family were Turk/Persian immigrants. He has no evidence for it. We say that he thinks so. That is the best we can do. You can choose to believe what you want to believe. You can't impose those beliefs on Wikipedia.
You also appear to have your own private idea of what NPOV is, which is sadly wrong. The
WP:NPOV page says that it means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
All I see from you is "editorial bias", personal opinions on what history is, what mythology is and so on. Please spare us your opinions and stick to sources. --
Kautilya3 (
talk) 16:19, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
What is more untrustworthy than an IP which keeps on changing, and its not about voting here, if a biased POV is reflected in the content it will be corrected. Of all the available versions for Mir's early life, you can't selectively pick one and add it as primary. No bias and POV on Wikipedia is allowed, be it of many or one. Barthateslisa ( talk) 04:42, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
@ Barthateslisa: I am getting lost with all the noise in this discussion. Do you still have any objections to the original content I contributed? If so, please state them. Please focus on the content, and not the editors. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:23, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Barthateslisa Please demonstrate your claim that this is a fringe theory. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 16:43, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
It is likely to be concocted history, which is dismissing it. If you want different wording, please suggest it. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 13:38, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I see that you are merely repeating the same old arguments without addressing any of my points. I think we have reached the end of the road here. I will take to WP:DRN. Please continue the discussion there. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 14:38, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Brother, hard to believe one can be so ignorant but Shah Mir was a tribe called Swati of Dehqan/ Tajik origin therefore, was styled as persian. He didn't come from persia. Now this tribe is counted amongst Pathans but aren't so and and part of Mountain Tajiks in North Western Afghanistan and majority live in Mansehra and Azad Kashmir. Regards Azmarai76 ( talk) 17:47, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
There is continuing battling about the origins of Shah Mir [2]. As far as I can see, people are merely POV-pushing. There are two sources: Jonaraja and the unnamed Persian chronicles. Most reliable sources accept Jonaraja. He was after all the court historian of one of his descendants. What we have here in the article is perfect NPOV, as perfect as it can be. Anybody contesting it should express their views here instead of edit-warring. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 19:09, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
An elaboration is in order, regarding the discussion and presumtions on this page -- about the terms "Swad-Gabar" and "Swat". This is a very common misconception, which has unfortunately been fostered by the almost total lack of access to the actual information in this regard.
Swat takes its name from its Sawadi Tajik rulers -- a community of administrative "Dehqans" of ancient Persian origin, thought to have existed here since the days when Gandhara and its environs were a longstanding Satrapy of Imperial Persia in the days before Islam. Sawad was a kingdom that extended far beyond the area presently known as Swat -- and at its height covered most of Gandhara between Parwan in present day Afghanistan and the Kashmiri town of Baramula near the Jhelum River. One of the areas under their control was the town of Panj, on the Amu (Oxus) River, and now in Tajikistan.
Sawadis and Sawad (Swat) are mentioned as such by the Timurid Babar in his celebrated "Baburnama"; he encountered and helped overthrow the last Sawadi King, Sultan Owais and facilitated the takeover of Sawad by the invading Yusufzai Pashtuns in 1520. All of this is recorded but hardly mentioned. After Sawad was taken over and repopulated by the Pashtuns 500 years ago, they corrupted the pronounciation of its name to the currently used "Swat".
As regards "Gabar" it does not mean "neighbourhood" as some have surmised here, on this page; it is infact the early Muslim pejorative term for Zoroastrian, "Gabr" -- which is what the Sawadis originally were, and like many Khorasani Dehqans they retained their original religion for quite a while till after the arrival of Islam in these parts. They therefore came to be called "Gabaris" and the name has stuck long after they converted...even now, the dominant tribal section of the Sawadi community (now called Swatis) is called "Gabari". One last item needing mention in relation to the above facts is that the Sawadis/Swatis spoke the Middle Persian dialect called Gabari or "Zoroastrian Dari" which is still spoken in an around Yazd and Kerman in Iran. It is on record that this language died out among them after the Pashtuns dislodged them from Sawad/Swat beginning 500 years ago. In substantiation of this, genetic investigations have also revealed that key Sawadi paternal lineages originated in and around Kerman and Sistan. [by Arif Akhundzada] 116.71.7.15 ( talk) 23:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
MAJOR REFERENCES REGARDING SWATIS
PRIMARY
Tawarikh-e-Hafiz Rehmat Khani Tazkira-tul-Ibrar wal Ashrar (A. Darweza) Makhzan-e-Afghani (N. Harawi)
MODERN Notes on Afghanistan and Baluchistan (H.G.W Raverty) Hayat-i-Afghani (Hayat M. Khan) The Pathans (Olaf Caroe)
ADDITIONAL Khulasat-ul-Ansaab Zakhira-tul-Mulook Tabaqat-e-Naseri Baburnama Alamgirnama Siyar-ul-Mutakherin
MAIN Tajik Swati wa Mumlikat-e-Gibar Tareekh kai Ainay Mein (M. Akhtar) 203.135.44.95 ( talk) 22:01, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
These are all WP:PRIMARY sources. You can believe them as you wish, but they are of no use for Wikipedia. Only reliable WP:SECONDARY sources, contemporary historical scholarship can be cited for history on Wikipedia. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 10:47, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Noorullah21 I found more than enough WP:RS for Shah Mir's origins in Swat after a simple search. By far, this seems to be mainstream view. That's why I moved it up in the section.
Beside, can you provide more information about Aziz Beg (whether he is a historian) who traces his origins to Jalalabad? Sutyarashi ( talk) 08:57, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
The first Muslim dynasty of Kashmir was founded in 1324 by Shah Mìrzà, who was probably an Afghan warrior from Swat or a Qarauna Turk, possibly even a Tibetan
Shah - Mir Swatt ( probably an Afghan)
Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible.Your sources are simply too weak. If you were following WP:NPOV, you would have simply disregarded them. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 18:46, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
I was actually referring to A.Q. Rafiqi and others.
"According to some Persian chronicles of Kashmir, Shah Mır was a descendant of the rulers of Swat"
"Others trace his descent to rulers of Swat"
"Shah Mir, runaway descendant of rulers of Swat"
I agree with Kautilya in his analysis of sources, especially the one by Atlantic publishers. Its author does not specialise in Indian history and should not be used to cite for contentious content. Rest seems ok. Hope so you'd agree with the above suggested rewrite of the section. Sutyarashi ( talk) 02:00, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Tagging user @ Noorullah21, you reverted my edits on the article [12] stating they weren't an improvement. I'd like to debate that.
Jonarja was a contemporary poet/historian in the Shah Mir durbar and hence is a contemporary source. Which is why he should be stated first. The section was a mess and I divided it into contemporary and modern historian subsections. What's wrong in that?
I also added more further sources indicating a Khas origin, which I borrowed and added from the Shah Mir dynasty article.
Snippetjet ( talk) 06:43, 16 December 2023 (UTC)