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Does anyone have a reference for
mat_x 10:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I have to assume it was vandalism. It seems really unlikely that he would be that old and die of AIDS, and it seems intended to make fun of his beliefs. Good catch. RSpeer 15:28, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I asked my grandfather, who is a mathematician and personally knew him, and it was not from AIDS. His source was Stephen Smale, who told him, I don't think I have any right to say what he died of on internet, but I can assure it was not anything related to AIDS and that is something I think I should say since it's probably coming from people who want defame him in favour of their beliefs.-- Espantalho ( talk) 21:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
There must be a solid answer somewhere -- Serge Zenin ( talk) 03:20, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Lang died on a visit to Berkeley from Yale during the summer and as a colleague on certain matters which kept us in mail and email contact after I interviewed him for OMNI (April 26 1993) I can state with absolute authority that he did not have "HIV/AIDS" or die from it. This claim is trivial sabotage of Wiki by persons who need to detract from Lang's reputation because he strongly criticized and himself adamantly rejected the orthodox claim that HIV causes AIDS symptoms, which they presumably support. The cause of Lang's death has always been unknown outside the family and close friends. - Anthony Liversidge Science Guardian Jul 21 2013. Signed in as "textgenie"
Please do not delete this category. A consensus was reached at the talk page of the category that AIDS dissidents are by definition pseudoscientists, and we MUST abide by the consensus of the community. So, I implore you, please do not remove the category. Revolver 23:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Any consensus that classifies an eminent mathematician as a pseudoscientist due to one opinion he held is unreasonable. It is clear from that talk page that you don't actually agree with the supposed "consensus" -- which doesn't seem to have ever proposed adding this category to individual articles in Category:AIDS dissidents anyway -- so you're disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. Stop. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 01:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The claim that Serge Lang was a "pseudoscientist" is laughable. No one had higher standards for evidence and reason than Lang, as his seminal book Challenges demonstrates. In fact his standards for scientific debate and for accepting scientific claims were the highest in the land. His accuracy is also reflected in his many textbooks on mathematics which are universally accepted and admired. To categorize him as a pseudoscientist is severely misleading and a corruption of Wiki seriously supported only by people who try to escape his critique of their beliefs, which was always mercilessly accurate. - Anthony Liversidge Science Guardian Signed in as "Textgenie"
I removed (again):
Enyclopedia typically don't use other encyclopedias as sources or give them as link for further reading. And another Wiki with just 71 articles and shorter article on Serge Lang as ours, don't need to apply. -- Pjacobi 19:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Life and mathematical career
Lang made fundamental contributions to many areas of mathematics, including complex analysis, differential geometry, algebraic geometry, and analytic number theory. He wrote a large number of mathematics textbooks which influenced a generation of mathematicians. Marco Mamone Capria wrote in an obituary, "...it is hard to find a single discipline in basic or advanced pure mathematics where Lang has not left his imprint, either by proving new theorems or by systematizing the matter in one of his treatises. And there is hardly one mathematician who had his education during the last thirty years and who has not profited from pouring over one or the other of Lang’s books." ( Capria 2005)
Lang was critical of the " publish or perish" mentality of contemporary mathematics: "Our response should be flexible and daring, and we should create an atmosphere which allows young mathematicians to feel that they can make it in the academic world without having to write one mediocre paper every year or two." ( Lang 1970)
AIDS activism
Lang was a vocal critic of the orthodox consensus on HIV and AIDS. He was particularly critical of the treatment of AIDS dissidents in major scientific journals, especially Nature and Science. He kept an extensive "file" on HIV/AIDS, which included many communications with the editors of these journals. Many of these files concerning HIV and AIDS can be found in the book Challenges ( ISBN 0387948619) ( Lang 1998).
Lang not only spoke out on the Baltimore affair and the controversy between Robert Gallo and Luc Montagnier concerning priority over discovery of HIV, he also advocated for funding of Peter Duesberg's drug-AIDS hypothesis and wrote a lengthy reply to Richard Horton's review of Inventing the AIDS Virus in the New York Review of Books. ( Lang 1998)
Quotes
See also
External links
Lang's writing on HIV/AIDS
Interview
Commentaries
General information
References
Further reading
In other words, roughly half (at least) of the AIDS Wiki article is NOT a duplication of material from Wikipedia. AT LEAST.
Your characterisation of the article as "3rd rate" is more than patronising. I could just as well say this current article on Lang on "3rd rate" -- as I've pointed out, it is mostly based on hearsay, has numerous uncited anecdotes and gossip, is poorly referenced and poorly organised. Things that can't be said for the AIDS Wiki article.
Please discontinue your crusade. It is not in the spirit of Wikipedia to remove worthy links (a single goddamn line in the entire article!!) just becuase you have some kind of personal grudge. The external link more than complies with the policies, if you have even bothered or are able to read them. Remove it again and I'm taking this to RfC. Revolver 21:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
In the mean time, your arguments are weak and your threats even weaker.
I looked at the link under dispute. I think it's ok to include it as an external link; it also has links and sources not mentioned in this article, so it has some utility. It appears well-researched also. As Revolver suggests, the AIDS Wiki article has a different focus, so only some info would be incorporable into the Wikipedia article without violating NPOV in some manner. -- C S (Talk) 04:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The article mentions a need for citation concerning the text:
According to one legend in circulation within the Princeton University math community during the 1970s, Lang typed one of his textbooks over a single weekend on a bet..[citation needed]
I was active in the math community at Princeton in the 70s and struck up a friendship with Professor Lang- Professor Lang was then a guest professor and avidly sought out contact with students.
I can confirm that this story was then in circulation, but I have no evidence to attest its veracity. In fact, many of the stories making the rounds of the Princeton Math Department were likely to be exagerations, more akin to urban legends than to sober, verifiable accounts. Although the entry provides an interesting (and probably representative) telling of Professor Lang's work style, I agree that it does live up to the requirements for an encyclapedia entry. I am removing the text.
-- Philopedia 19:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:External links:
WHAT SHOULD BE LINKED TO: 5. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article. Ideally this content should be integrated into the Wikipedia article, then the link would remain as a reference, but in some cases this is not possible for copyright reasons or because the site has a level of detail which is inappropriate for the Wikipedia article.
Arguably, it would not be good to integrate all the new (referenced, well-written) material from the AIDS Wiki into the Wikipedia article, not least because my tar would get feathered, but because it's off-topic of Lang's major aspect of his life, his mathematical work. The level of detail into his AIDS dissention is too great, there. But it is neutral and accurate material not already in the article, on a topic of his life which is relevant to him and his biography.
If this were ANY other topic, does anyone else here imagine I would have to go through this silliness??? Anyone watching/reading here?? Speak up. ONLY here. I KNEW this would happen. I left for 3 months to catch my temper, and I KNEW within 2 weeks some, stupid, silly, idiotic argument would drag me down. Well, fine, stick with your Wikipedia article on Lang. Stick with your lack of references, your mixed up, poorly written prose, your gossip and hearsay. I'll leave you people to your article here, in the meantime, I'll go work on my "3rd rate" piece of trash. Revolver 21:53, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, the anecdote is false, and I'm surprised that it is nevertheless put back in. I'd have expected that truth (or attributability, in our jargon) is essential for encyclopaedia articles. Secondly, the true version is not interesting enough (in my opinion) to be mentioned in the article. So Serge Lang got a T-shirt. What is the value of repeating the story here? That's why I removed the paragraph. -- Jitse Niesen ( talk) 06:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Ummm... in response to this revert, WP:EL actually does have a prohibition on linking to wikis without a "substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors." The AIDS wiki does not have a "substantial number of editors". Yes, I know that User:Revolver, who incidentally is the creator of the AIDSwiki, defended its inclusion (which also violates WP:COI/ WP:SPAM). Maybe you could explain why, in your opinion, the AIDSwiki is a special case or exception to the Wikipedia guideline? MastCell Talk 02:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure if 16 was the usual age for leaving that school at that time or if Lang was very good academically. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.154.200 ( talk) 13:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
The given citation does not support the claim that Lang was an AIDS denialist. He questioned the theory on the basis of a lack of rigor, which is not at all the same as claiming the theory is false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Student298 ( talk • contribs) 17:11, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I'll add that this claim has been sitting in this article without citation for quite a long time. I propose we leave it out until someone provides a citation which actually demonstrates the point. In the meantime, here is a quote I pulled from his book, Challenges:
Of course, none of the above points gives a conclusive answer as to what causes AIDS, or what does not cause AIDS in human beings, whatever AIDS is. I have no definitive answer. I merely question the line upheld up to now by the biomedical establishment, and repeated uncritically in the press, that "HIV is the virus that causes AIDS."
Student298 ( talk) 19:52, 8 January 2019 (UTC) WP:DUCK applies here. Simonm223 ( talk) 15:35, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
If you read his obituary http://www.ams.org/notices/200605/fea-lang.pdf by his collegues, some of which worked with him in his scientific claims againt HIV and its link to AIDS, it is clear that he did not deny AIDS but rather had some valid questions in that our understanding of it at the time was not fully explained, and that the scientific question had been politicized above. I think it is fair to keep the aspects of his controversy, but saying outright that he was an AIDS denialist is a miscarecterization. I invite anyone to read the source, particularly the section written by Peter Duesberg. It is only fair to his legacy to not label him as a denialist, being that he was trying to pursuit the question in true scientific spirit. ~~' pepelani
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Does anyone have a reference for
mat_x 10:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I have to assume it was vandalism. It seems really unlikely that he would be that old and die of AIDS, and it seems intended to make fun of his beliefs. Good catch. RSpeer 15:28, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I asked my grandfather, who is a mathematician and personally knew him, and it was not from AIDS. His source was Stephen Smale, who told him, I don't think I have any right to say what he died of on internet, but I can assure it was not anything related to AIDS and that is something I think I should say since it's probably coming from people who want defame him in favour of their beliefs.-- Espantalho ( talk) 21:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
There must be a solid answer somewhere -- Serge Zenin ( talk) 03:20, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Lang died on a visit to Berkeley from Yale during the summer and as a colleague on certain matters which kept us in mail and email contact after I interviewed him for OMNI (April 26 1993) I can state with absolute authority that he did not have "HIV/AIDS" or die from it. This claim is trivial sabotage of Wiki by persons who need to detract from Lang's reputation because he strongly criticized and himself adamantly rejected the orthodox claim that HIV causes AIDS symptoms, which they presumably support. The cause of Lang's death has always been unknown outside the family and close friends. - Anthony Liversidge Science Guardian Jul 21 2013. Signed in as "textgenie"
Please do not delete this category. A consensus was reached at the talk page of the category that AIDS dissidents are by definition pseudoscientists, and we MUST abide by the consensus of the community. So, I implore you, please do not remove the category. Revolver 23:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Any consensus that classifies an eminent mathematician as a pseudoscientist due to one opinion he held is unreasonable. It is clear from that talk page that you don't actually agree with the supposed "consensus" -- which doesn't seem to have ever proposed adding this category to individual articles in Category:AIDS dissidents anyway -- so you're disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. Stop. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 01:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The claim that Serge Lang was a "pseudoscientist" is laughable. No one had higher standards for evidence and reason than Lang, as his seminal book Challenges demonstrates. In fact his standards for scientific debate and for accepting scientific claims were the highest in the land. His accuracy is also reflected in his many textbooks on mathematics which are universally accepted and admired. To categorize him as a pseudoscientist is severely misleading and a corruption of Wiki seriously supported only by people who try to escape his critique of their beliefs, which was always mercilessly accurate. - Anthony Liversidge Science Guardian Signed in as "Textgenie"
I removed (again):
Enyclopedia typically don't use other encyclopedias as sources or give them as link for further reading. And another Wiki with just 71 articles and shorter article on Serge Lang as ours, don't need to apply. -- Pjacobi 19:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Life and mathematical career
Lang made fundamental contributions to many areas of mathematics, including complex analysis, differential geometry, algebraic geometry, and analytic number theory. He wrote a large number of mathematics textbooks which influenced a generation of mathematicians. Marco Mamone Capria wrote in an obituary, "...it is hard to find a single discipline in basic or advanced pure mathematics where Lang has not left his imprint, either by proving new theorems or by systematizing the matter in one of his treatises. And there is hardly one mathematician who had his education during the last thirty years and who has not profited from pouring over one or the other of Lang’s books." ( Capria 2005)
Lang was critical of the " publish or perish" mentality of contemporary mathematics: "Our response should be flexible and daring, and we should create an atmosphere which allows young mathematicians to feel that they can make it in the academic world without having to write one mediocre paper every year or two." ( Lang 1970)
AIDS activism
Lang was a vocal critic of the orthodox consensus on HIV and AIDS. He was particularly critical of the treatment of AIDS dissidents in major scientific journals, especially Nature and Science. He kept an extensive "file" on HIV/AIDS, which included many communications with the editors of these journals. Many of these files concerning HIV and AIDS can be found in the book Challenges ( ISBN 0387948619) ( Lang 1998).
Lang not only spoke out on the Baltimore affair and the controversy between Robert Gallo and Luc Montagnier concerning priority over discovery of HIV, he also advocated for funding of Peter Duesberg's drug-AIDS hypothesis and wrote a lengthy reply to Richard Horton's review of Inventing the AIDS Virus in the New York Review of Books. ( Lang 1998)
Quotes
See also
External links
Lang's writing on HIV/AIDS
Interview
Commentaries
General information
References
Further reading
In other words, roughly half (at least) of the AIDS Wiki article is NOT a duplication of material from Wikipedia. AT LEAST.
Your characterisation of the article as "3rd rate" is more than patronising. I could just as well say this current article on Lang on "3rd rate" -- as I've pointed out, it is mostly based on hearsay, has numerous uncited anecdotes and gossip, is poorly referenced and poorly organised. Things that can't be said for the AIDS Wiki article.
Please discontinue your crusade. It is not in the spirit of Wikipedia to remove worthy links (a single goddamn line in the entire article!!) just becuase you have some kind of personal grudge. The external link more than complies with the policies, if you have even bothered or are able to read them. Remove it again and I'm taking this to RfC. Revolver 21:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
In the mean time, your arguments are weak and your threats even weaker.
I looked at the link under dispute. I think it's ok to include it as an external link; it also has links and sources not mentioned in this article, so it has some utility. It appears well-researched also. As Revolver suggests, the AIDS Wiki article has a different focus, so only some info would be incorporable into the Wikipedia article without violating NPOV in some manner. -- C S (Talk) 04:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The article mentions a need for citation concerning the text:
According to one legend in circulation within the Princeton University math community during the 1970s, Lang typed one of his textbooks over a single weekend on a bet..[citation needed]
I was active in the math community at Princeton in the 70s and struck up a friendship with Professor Lang- Professor Lang was then a guest professor and avidly sought out contact with students.
I can confirm that this story was then in circulation, but I have no evidence to attest its veracity. In fact, many of the stories making the rounds of the Princeton Math Department were likely to be exagerations, more akin to urban legends than to sober, verifiable accounts. Although the entry provides an interesting (and probably representative) telling of Professor Lang's work style, I agree that it does live up to the requirements for an encyclapedia entry. I am removing the text.
-- Philopedia 19:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:External links:
WHAT SHOULD BE LINKED TO: 5. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article. Ideally this content should be integrated into the Wikipedia article, then the link would remain as a reference, but in some cases this is not possible for copyright reasons or because the site has a level of detail which is inappropriate for the Wikipedia article.
Arguably, it would not be good to integrate all the new (referenced, well-written) material from the AIDS Wiki into the Wikipedia article, not least because my tar would get feathered, but because it's off-topic of Lang's major aspect of his life, his mathematical work. The level of detail into his AIDS dissention is too great, there. But it is neutral and accurate material not already in the article, on a topic of his life which is relevant to him and his biography.
If this were ANY other topic, does anyone else here imagine I would have to go through this silliness??? Anyone watching/reading here?? Speak up. ONLY here. I KNEW this would happen. I left for 3 months to catch my temper, and I KNEW within 2 weeks some, stupid, silly, idiotic argument would drag me down. Well, fine, stick with your Wikipedia article on Lang. Stick with your lack of references, your mixed up, poorly written prose, your gossip and hearsay. I'll leave you people to your article here, in the meantime, I'll go work on my "3rd rate" piece of trash. Revolver 21:53, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, the anecdote is false, and I'm surprised that it is nevertheless put back in. I'd have expected that truth (or attributability, in our jargon) is essential for encyclopaedia articles. Secondly, the true version is not interesting enough (in my opinion) to be mentioned in the article. So Serge Lang got a T-shirt. What is the value of repeating the story here? That's why I removed the paragraph. -- Jitse Niesen ( talk) 06:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Ummm... in response to this revert, WP:EL actually does have a prohibition on linking to wikis without a "substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors." The AIDS wiki does not have a "substantial number of editors". Yes, I know that User:Revolver, who incidentally is the creator of the AIDSwiki, defended its inclusion (which also violates WP:COI/ WP:SPAM). Maybe you could explain why, in your opinion, the AIDSwiki is a special case or exception to the Wikipedia guideline? MastCell Talk 02:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure if 16 was the usual age for leaving that school at that time or if Lang was very good academically. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.154.200 ( talk) 13:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
The given citation does not support the claim that Lang was an AIDS denialist. He questioned the theory on the basis of a lack of rigor, which is not at all the same as claiming the theory is false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Student298 ( talk • contribs) 17:11, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I'll add that this claim has been sitting in this article without citation for quite a long time. I propose we leave it out until someone provides a citation which actually demonstrates the point. In the meantime, here is a quote I pulled from his book, Challenges:
Of course, none of the above points gives a conclusive answer as to what causes AIDS, or what does not cause AIDS in human beings, whatever AIDS is. I have no definitive answer. I merely question the line upheld up to now by the biomedical establishment, and repeated uncritically in the press, that "HIV is the virus that causes AIDS."
Student298 ( talk) 19:52, 8 January 2019 (UTC) WP:DUCK applies here. Simonm223 ( talk) 15:35, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
If you read his obituary http://www.ams.org/notices/200605/fea-lang.pdf by his collegues, some of which worked with him in his scientific claims againt HIV and its link to AIDS, it is clear that he did not deny AIDS but rather had some valid questions in that our understanding of it at the time was not fully explained, and that the scientific question had been politicized above. I think it is fair to keep the aspects of his controversy, but saying outright that he was an AIDS denialist is a miscarecterization. I invite anyone to read the source, particularly the section written by Peter Duesberg. It is only fair to his legacy to not label him as a denialist, being that he was trying to pursuit the question in true scientific spirit. ~~' pepelani