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The use of the word 'terrorist' in the lead in section is unacceptable, according to wikipedias own policy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Extremist.2C_terrorist_and_freedom_fighter
The word is used in the narrative voice, and the citation doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Damburger 23:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
This question is based in the argument over what " terrorism" means. In fact, Wikipedia has an article about the differing definitions of terrorism. As the article states:
The definition of terrorism is inherently controversial. The use of violence for the achievement of political ends is common to state and non-state groups. The difficulty is in agreeing on a basis for determining when the use of violence (directed at whom, by whom, for what ends) is legitimate. The majority of definitions in use have been written by agencies directly associated with a government, and are systematically biased to exclude governments from the definition. [1]
As a result of what is an academic and political argument we, as an encyclopedia, are left to decide how things should be phrased. However, we are bound by neutral point of view to follow the lead that a substantial number of reliable and unbiased sources have taken — namely, the appellation of the "terrorist" moniker. A selection of these sources includes the United Nations, [2] The Washington Post, [3] the Christian Science Monitor, [4] and The Guardian, [5] to name but a few. A Google News search brings up many other examples. Thus, though we, as editors, may personally disagree with the term used, as an encyclopedia we are bound to use the term which has gained near-universal acceptance and refer the exact debate over the term to other pages, such as the linked definition of terrorism article. Alternative terms suggested, like militant or freedom fighter either confuse the issue for a general reader, or are inherently relativistic in nature, and inappropriate in an encyclopedic context. The article strives to minimize the use of this controversial term in anything other than an unequivocal context; hence the use of "hijackers", specific names, and organizations instead of the blanket "terrorists".
Not one bit of this matters. The rules regarding the word 'terrorist' are crystal clear, and this is a violation of them.
Also, this 'FAQ' is just something a guy made it. It has no authority here as far as I can see. So we can just ignore it and stick to actual wikipedia policy, k? Damburger 00:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
<-----The above series of straw statements and questions are still personal attacks and claims of superiority. See: WP:OR, WP:NPOV, and WP:UNDUE.-- Cberlet 01:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll bite... if they aren't terrorists, what are they? -- Tarage 03:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
You won't even need to say he was evil. That is why the article on Hitler does not start with "Hitler was a bad man"—we don't need to, his deeds convict him a thousand times over. We just list the facts of the Holocaust dispassionately, and the voices of the dead cry out afresh in a way that makes name-calling both pointless and unnecessary. Please do the same: list Saddam's crimes, and cite your sources.
The fact that the article about Hitler doesn't say "he was evil" is because he was much more than that. He was a man, and the chief of government. And he has been judged you are right about that. But using this as an excuse for trashing America and trying to insert the "anti-american" strike to this is BS. These men considered their only aim in life to destroy America, and to kill people on this very day. Saying they are terrorist is not judgemental, it's true. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, that means it aim to sum-up everything we know, but that doesn't seem we don't have to call a cat a cat. Because Hitler and the Nazis have been judged at Nuremberg, you can begin the article about Hitler by everything you want. But terrorist of 9/11 haven't been judged because they choose the violence instead of trying to protest peacefully. And because they haven't been judged that essentially denies us to treat them as History objects, like we can do with Hitler. Even if you hate America, it doesn't stop the fact that 3000 people were killed here. And if this article would have been redacted by a French guy, it would have been the same. I am for peace and I love diversity, but the fact that I love diversity doesn't mean I have to accept what touches human dignity. The fact that sexual mutilations is a religious tradition in some parts of Africa doesn't mean I have to accept that generations of women have to suffer a barbarian treatment.
You keep saying Americans are trying to impose a point of view, but what are doing when you keep on saying : "stop imposing a POV on us". YOU are trying to impose the POV that what people did this very day may be considered decent and right in some countries, and that we should accept that fact as a part of ethnic diversity and try to undrstand them. But did the terrorist in these planes this fateful day tried to undrstand the scared people in the planes? Did they gave them a chance to understand and reached out for them.
Guantanamo is wrong because it lowers America to their level, but that doesn't mean we should accept that there are people out there willing to kill 3000 persons to express their POV and that that is their right. Have a little decency for human dignity, please.
Now for what concerns Wikipedia policy, I think this is an exception, because every reliable source (even Ben Laden himself) said at least once the word 'terrorist' to apply to these guys.
And not just American newspapers, but all over the world.
[User:Anne-Caroline Sieffert] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.230.56.132 ( talk) 16:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Please take into consideration Damburger's possible reasoning. The user states to having Aspergers Syndrome on his userpage. Some of the clinical features are:
I'm not trying to say to allow him special treatment, but only understanding of what is behind his comments and edits. The people who have this syndrome can have very high intelligence, but seem to lack common sense. I'm not saying that Damburger lacks commonsense at all. But, please keep this in mind when dealing with him/her that there may be a medical problem associated with problematic social interactions. Thanks. - Jeeny Talk 22:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I resent that. I have Asperger's Syndrome myself, and to use that as an excuse for behavior is an insult. All of my life I have explain to people that while I have this disorder, it is not a crutch. I may dissagree with Damburger, but it is highly innapropriate to bring a medical condition into this. Please think next time you post. -- Tarage 02:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
People are readding the POV word terrorist (disallowed by wikipedia, as I've outlined above) with the description "per talk" or "see talk" - despite the fact these editors have not contributed to the talk page at all! I have repeatedly described how and why, according to wikipedia, IT DOES NOT MATTER how many people say a group/event is terrorist: its against wikipedia policy to use the word in the narrative voice at all. The only responses have been citations of people who describe these attacks as terrorist - completely ignoring the very valid point I've made. Yet editors still continue to be so confident they've 'won' this debate that they keep readding the word as if the dispute has been resolved in their favour. Is there nobody editing this article that is even slightly reasonable, or even willing to read and understand a counterargument? Damburger 13:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:TERRORIST clearly points out why this is an inherently POV word. The UN may consider it terrorism, many others don't. You may add a line to the article stating "XXX says they were terrorist attacks", but not "they were terrorist attacks". This is a controversial and disputed matter, so you shouldn't state it as a fact. Mel sa ran 14:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's the text from WP:TERRORIST: In line with the Wikipedia Neutral Point of View policy, the words "Extremist", "Terrorist" and "Freedom fighter" should be avoided unless there is a verifiable citation indicating who is calling a person or group by one of those names in the standard Wikipedia format of "X says Y". In an article the words should be avoided in the unqualified "narrative voice" of the article. I think that's pretty clear. It also makes sense. Rklawton 16:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Should the word 'terrorism' be used in the narrative voice in this article? Is it disallowed by WP:TERRORIST?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Extremist.2C_terrorist_and_freedom_fighter
The word is used in the narrative voice, and the citation doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Damburger 23:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I think complying with WP:TERRORIST wouldn't be all that hard. Indeed, it may well make the article more informative. Here's an example of the sort of changes we'd need to make:
By removing the blanket "terrorist" word, we can substitute in more descriptive and neutral words. Rklawton 16:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Id like to add that the debate isn't about how many sources say the attacks were terrorist attacks, or how authoritative those sources were - its about the validity of using sources to decide this at all. I think WP:TERRORIST plainly indicates it is not valid. Damburger 16:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I think WP:TERRORIST, as a guideline, is trumped by the policy WP:NPOV, which clearly indicates that "terrorist" is the word to use. No other word will fit. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
If the opposition has no more arguments (which seems the case) I think its time to remove the word. The only reasons not to have been absolutely debunked (although that hasn't stopped proponents continuing to push them). Damburger 09:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this discussion has run its course. I am still thoroughly convinced of my arguments, as are some others, and I can't see a single valid point raised by the opposition. They are unlikely to admit that, of course. This hasn't been as productive as I had hoped, so I am going to try a different angle. Damburger 20:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Friends, many of you strongly oppose my opinion that it is not certain that 911 was perpetrated as an outside attack. (In fact, I believe the most likely explanation is that it would be an inside job.) So be it. It's a free world, anyone can believe whatever he/she likes. I can and you can.
Nonetheless, there is a tremendous amount of facts that we DO all agree on. Why not move the current article to "the official account of the September 11, 2001 attacks" and have a neutrally worded article about the vast amount of undisputed material instead? The way this has been going for years, it's such a waste of our energy, folks!
Suggesting a new lead:
And then the rest of the events which are not disputed, worded with a neutral narrative (not labeling 'terrorism'), and attributing viewpoints.
Rationale: I do not think we will easily reach consensus on this article. Clearly the editors which advocate the official story have a need for the article to be according to their view of the world, and are abhorred by wording it neutrally. Therefor, I think the best solution is to have a consensus article and a seperate article for the mainstream view. — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 14:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The page has been protected following a request at WP:RFPP. I hope that we can solve this issue on the talk page. Mel sa ran 15:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
"widely regard as" is not needed. Simply terrorist, accompanied by references will suffice. So, it would be terrorist [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] and need to add some more sources. Or per WP:NPOV#Undue weight, we could simply say terrorist with the single U.N. reference. -- Aude ( talk) 18:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, we have wikipedia guidelines. We have WP:TERRORIST, part of the Manual of Style, which says that, as quoted above, the word should not be used in the narrative voice. Why not? Use of the terms "extremist", "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" implies a moral judgment; and if one party can successfully attach the label to a group, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its moral viewpoint. The question is, then: is there anyone who isn't persuaded that these hijackers were terrorists? Are there people who think that they didn't intentionally kill themselves and thousands of others in order to further their ulterior motives?
We also have WP:NPOV, a non-negotiable pillar of wikipedia - the only one, I believe JW said - which says that something can't be stated as fact unless it is generally accepted as such. Things which are not generally accepted (in other words, opinions) can be converted into facts by attributing them to a reliable source. So I guess question two is, are there any non- fringe observers who seriously dispute that this attack is the textbook case of terrorism? In other words, would it give undue weight to tiny-minority views to define this event as anything other than a terrorist attack? Sheffield Steel talkers stalkers 03:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
...(continued from #back to the polls)
I think there is a paradox. In the September 11, 2001 attacks, there are two major suspects: Osama bin Laden and an alleged shadow government. Now, in order to establish which due weight to give to either the mainstream view or to conspiracy views:
It appears to me that this is a snake biting its own tail. When following this process, it is absolutely impossible for wikipedia to write about crimes committed by the establishment neutrally unless they themselves admit it. Every other authority is denied. Every expert, major politician that speaks out is set in a corner a lone lunatic.
This cannot be the way forward? We must be able to find a better way to find some balance between what to include and what to leave out? — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 17:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
This alledged shadow government isn't a major suspect, making this entire discussion pointless. RxS 19:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Look, according to recent polls, something like 40% of the American public does not believe the "official" account of what happened on 9/11. On a related note, on the order to 60% of the American public does not believe in the theory of evolution. Both are based on pretty much the same level of evidence, and display about the same level of acceptance in credible experts and reliable sources. They also both, in the stead of the so-called "official" version have a literal zoo of different explanations, which have no support by qualified and credible experts. As the evolution article does, we devote a small section of the article to a discussion of these alternative theories, and link to an extensive sub-article where they are treated in depth. Wikipedia is not the court of popular opinion, it's not a democracy, and it's not a vote; it's a reference encyclopedia. If you read above, or here you can see an explanation for why the article is the way it is. Essentially, in compromising the lead, which is supposed to summarize the article, by saying things like "according to the official account" or something similar, you give an absolutely staggering amount of undue weight to these theories, which have no support by credible experts. It's the equivalent of writing the lead of Hitler to say "Adolf Hitler was Chancellor of Germany in 1933, and Führer from 1934 to 1945. He led the National Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, the Nazi Party. Some believe he escaped Germany and now lives in Argentina." It not only totally misrepresents the article which follows, in violation of our guidelines, but gives a far too much credence to a fringe theory about Hitler's death. -- Haemo 23:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
In response to the self-eating snake metaphor - it has a corollary, too. Consider, for instance, a Paranoid Nut Job who shows up to Wikipedia one day to teach the world about some big secret. Paranoid Nut Job eventually finds himself blocked for disruption (or whatever). Paranoid Nut Job now has another bit of "evidence" of a vast conspiracy – one that now includes Wikipedia. Now, how are we to tell the difference between a self-eating snake and the work of a Paranoid Nut Job? That's why we pretty much stick to verifiable, reliable sources. Rklawton 02:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sick of this. I'm sick of the endless debates that go nowhere, and those who attempt to try every concievable method to push the same flawed idealogoly. I'm sick of the constant revert wars. If you are sick of this, let your voice be heard here. I propose no more pointless debates. No more "but they aren't 'really' terrorists". No more "this article has POV problems." Maybe if enough of us stand up and say Enough, we can move beyond this pointless argument. Who is with me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarage ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 16 August 2007
I know this is a pretty minor thing to bring up, but we've got 177 refs here. What do people think of a four col reflist? -- Anonymous Dissident Talk 05:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
As I said above, I have no problems with the term "terrorist" or "terror-act". Indeed it
was an act of terror.
However it is important to understand that in this context the term "terrorist" is designed.
Designed to function like: "Which" in Europe between 1450 and 1700; like "Jude" in Germany
1930-1945; and "Communist" in USA and Western Europe 1945-1980.
Like the other examples, the term is designed to create these effects:
As it is now, the article is advocating the above statments.
And to #Enough: If the majority at school are beating and harassing you. And there comes a point where you speak up. Or somebody is speaking up for you. What is it enough of? Harassing/beating or speaking up? Geir 08:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
In western countries we see those attackers as "terrorists" because they attacked the US, but in certain middle eastern countries, the foreign policy of the US is seen as very invasive and as a danger. See also the section Statements by others in this article which is giving reasons why a palestinian or a person with arabic background may think of the 911 attackers as "freedom figthers".
The problem of calling someone a "terrorist" or a "freedom fighter" is always determined by the point of view of the narrator. For example when the US financed the Taliban in the 1980s in order to combat russia, no one in the western countries referred to them as terrorists but rather as freedom fighters against communism. But for Russia they were seen as Terrorists. So for me the T-Word is never NPOV ! It is hard for someone who's country has been attacked to have NPOV but that is exactly why there are guidelines! Of course it is necessary to mention that most of the western countries see 911 as a terrorist attack.
Haemo has no background in physics or engineering and as such is not qualified to consider the evidence which proves beyond any doubt that the World Trade Center was destroyed by controlled demolitions which hence invalidates the grossly false suppositions of this page. Bofors7715 04:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me, are you claiming that is acceptable for an encyclopedia to include treasonous falsehoods? Bofors7715 04:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
No??? Then why are you are engaging in unacceptable behavior. Bofors7715 05:15, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
It has been proven beyond any doubt that the World Trade Center was destoryed by controlled demolitions. This section ignores that evidence and instead regurgitates US goverment propaganda from NIST. Bofors7715 04:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry but you are not qualified to determine what is a reliable source in engineering. Bofors7715 04:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry but your guidelines either do not apply in this case or are being misapplied. For example the NIST report on the collapse of the twin towers is not a reliable source. It is a highly doctored piece of spin. Please see this: http://blip.tv/file/306082/
“ | Any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's core content policies. | ” |
“It has been proven beyond any doubt that the World Trade Center was destoryed by controlled demolitions” - Wrong, it’s been speculated but never proven. If it is proven in the future the article will be changed, however it hasn’t so the article still stands in its current form. ~ NossB 14:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Please, kindly change the following sentence in the attacks section…
A third building, 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) collapsed at 5:20 p.m., after being heavily damaged by debris from the Twin Towers when they fell.
Into this one>
A third building, 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) collapsed at 5:20 p.m., the 47 stories building was not hit by plane, it collapsed without resistance in less than 7 seconds, after six years the official explanation of its collapse is still pending.
Reference: NIST Status Update on World Trade Center 7 Investigation
Feel free to improve the wording, many thanks. 89.172.46.93 14:30, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
To User:89.172.46.93, perhaps your edit should be revised to "although not impacted by an airplane, WTC fell after sustaining heavy damage from thousands of tons of structural steel beams dropped directly on the building from hundreds of feet above from the collapse of the north WTC tower along with several hours of fire damage fueled by thousands of gallons of heating oil stored in the basement. Emergency workers at the scene reported significant damage to the SW corner and predicated as early as 4:00pm that the building would collapse." 206.169.172.212 20:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, how much energy has been used here basically saying: "You're wrong, we're right"? It doesn't lead us anywhere, does it?
I want to focus on two goals for this article/subject:
I want a disambigued/main-page that says: "The mainstrea/majority-view of this event can be found here.." and "Another view(s) can be found here.." This article/discussion has proved beyond doubt that it is very hard to include any other points of view into the existing article. Thus, it can't function as a first-page for the subject.
I want a more neutral/objective language in this article. From "This-is-The-One-and-Only-Truth" to "Acording to the mainstream version it is so and so..". This is the wikipedian way of dealing with issues where there are conflicting/different views. Geir 11:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As far as I can see, two main themes keep recurring on this talk page:
1. Use of pejorative language such as 'terrorist', even with referencing, in the narrative voice
2. Presentation of the official account of events that day in the narrative voice
The debates keep going nowhere, and I believe it is mostly because of a group of entrenched editors who refuse to listen to arguments that run contrary to their own views - and have even stated so themselves: "I don't care about your argument anymore. It's wrong, and I'll fight till I'm banned against it." [3]
These editors dismiss anyone opposed to their vision for this article as "Fringe" without really having anything to back it up: "All other explanations are fringe theories with very little support." [4]. They have also suggested that those disagreeing with them be restricted in their capacity to edit the article. [5]
Does anyone have any suggestion for mediating this disagreement? This article can't develop if anyone opposed to its current slant is shouted down by people who have said they refuse to listen to counterargument and have dismissed all other opinions as 'fringe'? How is the rest of the community supposed to work with them? Damburger 22:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
A Scripps-Howard poll of 1,010 adults last month found that 36% of Americans consider it "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves. [6]
I'm sorry but it looks to me as if Haemo is using strawman arguments,perhaps unintentionally. I still say the discussion should concentrate on how to produce the best NPOV article rather than trying to justify sticking with a non-NPOV article. The 1st. paragraph as it now stands could just as well have been written by Karl Rove. Mr.grantevans2 12:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
About Haemo's argument about the use of the term "terrosism": he is completely ignoring the fact that WP:TERRORIST explicitly says that the use of this word "should be avoided in the unqualified "narrative voice" of the article": you can eventually write "X say Y is a terrorist" and cite the source. So it makes no sense to discuss about the many meanings of the word given the fact that we have a so clear rule to apply.-- Pokipsy76 16:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
The supporters of the word 'terrorism' seem to have run out of relevant arguments, being reduced to Tarages attitude of 'I've not got a leg to stand on, but I will fight to the death for my POV'. Can we finally remove the word now? Damburger 13:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
The 'Its just a guideline' angle is getting old. You still need a reason, other than it being a guideline, for disregarding it. It clearly states we should avoid using the word 'terrorist' in this manner, and you don't seem to have provided any real reason for its inclusion. Damburger 20:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Try this:
“ | Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle. According to Jimmy Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable." | ” |
Sheffield Steel talkers stalkers 20:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this has gone far enough, there's obviously not going to be a consensus on this. The discussion is just going round and round. Sometimes you just don't get your way...I'd suggest working on other articles for a while...there's plenty of POV issues around Wikipedia that could use some attention other then this page and the term in question. If you want to take this further you can always open an RFC. But it's important to remember that the person that's willing to argue the longest doesn't get his way by default...rope-a-dope doesn't work. You think you're right about this, others think they are right...you're not going to be able to sway them at this point so my suggestion is to move on, at least for now. Or open an RFC. Does anyoe mind if I close this section? RxS 20:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. I'm being accused of gaming the system by actually asked people to obey guidelines AND policy: I have explained time and time again how WP:NPOV [i]supports[/i] my argument because of the princple of 'let the facts speak for themselves' [13]. I won't simply sit down and shut up because I'm told to. My arguments in this matter are bulletproof, which is why everyone has refused to address them, and tries their best to ignore them. Trying to make wikipedia objective is not wasting anybodys time, or acting in bad faith. It is what editors are supposed to do. It is what I'm trying to do here, despite enourmous resistance from people with a clear agenda contrary to the aims of wikipedia. Damburger 15:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The self-proclaimed majority (which I do not believe is a true majority, simply a very vocal minority) refuses to listen to any line of reasoning that might contradict their worldview, and have explicitly stated as much (See Tarages comments). So how am I supposed to sway them, when they have said in advance they will not be swayed, ever, from their platform? By your 'logic', it would be thus impossible to change anything in any wikipedia article that had a handful of stubborn editors camping on it. You won't read this as you've ignored me, it seems, for calling you on your hypocrisy. I started this section to try and find a resolution to the dispute after the RfC failed to do anything but rehash the old debate (which was barely even a debate, as my points are consistently ignored and the other side have stated they will never concede anything they say as being wrong). The same thing has happened here. So, I will let this section die, but I will be opening another one - until we get this sorted. Damburger 16:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I searched but I don't think the damage to this building, its dismantling, or the two further (I would say) 9/11-related deaths that occurred there recently are in the article. Should we at least have some mention of it? -- Golbez 18:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I would first like to say that the following is not a personal attack - merely an observation. I have read through most of the talk page notes on this article and I do understand the policy on verifiability. But in my opinion, I feel the question of true impartiality must be brought up - especially after viewing the comments of Tarage. Seemingly, Tarage seems so passionate about going against governmental findings and mainstream theories, that his/her rebuttals against possible conspiracy discourse may actually keep future generations from coming to this site and getting the broad scope of what may have actually happened. I feel comments like "Because the conspiricy theories are all without substantial sources." show that Tarage believes the only credible source for information on September 11th is the government.
It's great to be a great American (if Tarage is an American, I can't say for sure), but to toss out comments by other posters simply because their comments didn't come from CNN, MSNBC, or FOX news, violates Wikipedia's own policy on neutrality. Comments like "Many many experts in many many feilds have concluded that what was documented by the 9/11 comission, as well as the Bush administration is what actually occured that way...you can argue till you are blue in the face, but the fact remains that islamic extremists flew jets into buildings on 9/11. You may not LIKE that, but it IS what happened." seems to denote that Tarage cannot even fathom the possibility that our government could have possibly done something that contradicts the "documentation". If the Nixon administration could cover up their actions against John Lennon back in the 70's or of course, Watergate, then could it not be possible that some of these "so-called" conspiracy theories may have some truth to them?
Example. In one of your earliest notes, you stated on the subject of opinion polls:
"Public oppinion polls can be quite flawed. For example, the way you phrase a question can change the answer people give. I'd have to know exactially what questions were asked, as well as the motive of the poll."
But, on another Wikipedia article, we could take a look at the approval rating polls of our current president. President Bush had an approval rating of 92 percent back in October 2001 (according to ABC). In July of 2007, his approval rating, according to ARG, was 25 percent. Now, would we exclude the ARG poll information simply because ARG may not be as recognizable to the general public as say ABC would be?
So, under conspiracy theories section, the comment "These theories are not accepted as credible by virtually all mainstream journalists, scientists, and political leaders, who have concluded that responsibility for the attacks and the resulting destruction rests with Al Qaeda.", despite article "verification", could be deemed as a statement of opinion, rather than a reflection of neutrality. My questions to Tarage would be:
1. What do you deem a credible source? Does this have to be a reasonably recognizable impartial news organization?
2. Do you believe that the news organizations of this country are, in fact, impartial?
3. If a news report (surfaced on any of these news sources) stated information that called into question or completely and undoubtedly refuted the information that is currently in your September 11th wiki article, would you post that information in depth upon it being posted to Wikipedia or would you allow your our personal feelings on the subject to prevent you from doing so?
Again, this is not a personal attack. I'm just merely trying to understand why it seems that you, Tarage, are trying to keep information off the article, when it is obvious that numerous people have brought up stronger points for not just a quick inclusion in the article of the fact conspiracy theories on 9/11 exist, but these points make a good case for there to be a broader discussion in this article about some of the points brought up by these theories. I understand that their is a seperate article for the theories, but I must agree with some of the previous posters - this article is far from neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kct2002us ( talk • contribs) 03:09, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
All fine and good, but if you look at Tarage's previous remarks on the subject (on this talk page), does it not seem that the whole "Reliable Sources" policy is more subjective and based on opinion than anything else? You have some people who don't believe that news sources such as CNN or Fox News are actually reporting on the actual news or perhaps that they twist the news based on their political leanings or monetary persuasions. This is the same opinions people would have for those news mediums that feel their may be merit to the conspiracy theories. Doesn't this make the "Reliable Sources" policy seem somewhat one-sided? Both sides of the argument could claim that evidence can be seen for their points of view. Why just placate to one particular point of view? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kct2002us ( talk • contribs) 19:52, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
I know I'm being pedantic but shouldn't the article be named "September 11, 2001, attacks" (with a comma between 2001 and attacks)? I believe that's more grammatically correct. Or was there some reason the comma is missing? -- tariqabjotu 16:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
That section is getting a little big, but that still doesn't invalidate the dispute:
These arguments have not been refuted. Those who want to keep the word in have simply maintained that they will revert edits regardless of what anyone else says. [16] I have been the subject of accusations [17] of acting in bad faith, and then been told to apologise to the same author moments later for turning these accusations back against him [18]. For pointing out his hypocrisy, he put me on ignore.
This level of debate is not healthy. Can someone actually address the points above? Otherwise, simply concede that use of the word is not objective, and is contrary to Wikipedia rules and guidelines. Damburger 16:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
To address Damburger's points in order...
It seems to me that a correct interpretation of WP:NPOV is the only issue before us. Sheffield Steel talkers stalkers 17:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Are we done yet? Or is Damburger's temper tantrum going to be allowed to continue till it fills up another page? -- Tarage 05:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I was just looking at all of the inventors who don't deserve a wikipedia page because of a lack of mainstream confirmation of their invention. I had to learn to respect the way wikipedia works right there. This makes me think the amount of pseudo science on this page should make it more then worthy of deletion, Wikipedia should not function as a platform to advertise a minority opinion as scientific fact. The page doesn't mention doubt about the subject, everything written goes without proper scientific evidence. Who brought Osama bin Laden into this story? I really want to hear how he relates to this before reading "he did it!!" in the wiki. Don't you actually have to prove some one did something? Lets agree to disagree and delete the page. There are so much lies on it it's broken beyond repair.( Gaby de wilde 17:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC))
Hey, wait a minute? You talk about me and call me an idiot AND move my article but you don't reply to me? This is just rude trolling IMHO.
At least state your opinion?( Gaby de wilde 19:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC))
The article assumes a consensus that does not exist. It makes no reference to other points of view such as science! It represents everything what propaganda stands for. You are right of course when you say you do have to find reliable sources. The claim this is not a highly controversial topic is easy to disprove. My claim remains: This is a subject of extreme controversy, such discussion has no place in wikipedia. And stop deleting everything I write here will you? ( Gaby de wilde 21:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC))
No it was this
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/10/29/binladen_message041029.html
Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden appeared in a new message aired on an Arabic TV station Friday night, for the first time claiming direct responsibility for the 2001 attacks against the United States.
But no reference to the actual video is made on this page. So the page is just a reference in it self. It does not contain any content.
The locked page uses words like TERRORIST and has an extremely PROPAGANDA like nature. It tries to force a consensus upon the reader that doesn't exist.
The official story is a conspiracy theory.
The global scientific consensus is that the buildings got blown up.
Kerosene doesn't get hot enough to create pre-collapse explosions in the basement. Or is a pre-collapse victim in a hospital bed not a credible source?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSGZYP--wz0
If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure -Mark Loizeaux, president, Controlled Demolition Inc.
So that means EXPLOSIONS not COLLAPSE. And what about the thermite? They may have tried to ship all evidence to china the 5000 megawatt afterglow is something you will have to explain for before you quote a news article as a scientific fact.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/thermite.htm
The official story is nonsense. This everyone knows already. But feel free to explain why didn't jets intercept the airliners since they had numerous warnings of terrorist attacks. Why were there no photos or videos of the Pentagon plane? Why did the private footage need to be confiscated. Where the reported to be found flight recorders are. How Bush could see the first plane crash on live camera. You may explain why the official story is so full of such non scientific nonsense. And most of all we need some explanation of why the official story needs to be supported by removing evidence.
I think those are honest questions. How can there be 10 000 videos on google video all claiming controlled demolition. While some artificial consensus is enforced here?
Please don't just delete my arguments again.
( Gaby de wilde 22:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC))
But ok, lets try discuss the article.
Why not have A paragrhap about the evidence getting shiped off sight? Be honest?
Various conspiracy theories have emerged as a reaction to the attacks suggesting that individuals outside of the terrorist organization Al Qaeda knew of, planned, or carried out the attacks.[126] These theories are not accepted as credible by virtually all mainstream journalists, scientists, and political leaders, who have concluded that responsibility for the attacks and the resulting destruction rests with Al Qaeda.
I find the the official story to be one heap of nonsense. The sincere questions about the hiding of practically all evidence should be mentioned here. The thousands of questions about the topic should not merely be generalised as conspiracy nuttery in one single paragraph. They should all have their own Q and A. If anything should be labeled as conspiracy theory it should be the official story.
I find spontaneous pancake dustification of skyscrapers pseudo-scientific nonsense of the highest order.
Then the story wants 3 of those caused by 2 aluminum jets? Almost all the kerosene burns off on impact but there is enough left to melt steel? This while it doesn't actually get anywhere near the temperature in the real world of science. The impact of a jet is no where near the pressure the wind creates. People who worked in the building for years got blown up in the basement. How much more pseudo-scientific does it get I wonder? Explosions + not enough impact + not enough jet fuel + it didn't get hot enough = controlled demolition
no? please explain your answer. The article should contain the cop-out excuses commonly used by the mainstream media in order to get away from the facts. Not the other way around, you cant quote up an article out of chunks of clear nonsense and rationalise it by saying it was written in the bible of mainstream media. The truth is not the property of news agencies to make of what they like.
I'm not putting this up for debate, it is my opinion the story should go as it's not based on scientific facts.
( Gaby de wilde 23:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC))
My point is that the posters above have no intention to ever create a decent page about this topic, they have been unable to up to this point. The page is locked while it uses slander and propaganda of the highest order.
Take this:
That morning nineteen terrorists[3] affiliated with al-Qaeda[4] hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners.
REFERENCE 3
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2001/09/12/AR2005033107980.html No one claimed responsibility for the attacks, but federal officials said they suspect the involvement of Islamic extremists with links to fugitive terrorist Osama bin Laden, who has been implicated in the 1998 bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa and several other attacks.
In other words: This news article does not confirm the claim in any way.
REFERRENCE 4
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/10/29/binladen_message041029.html Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden appeared in a new message aired on an Arabic TV station Friday night, for the first time claiming direct responsibility for the 2001 attacks against the United States.
this article still does not prove anything, it is a reference to a reference, the actual video is not supplied. The video is also a known hoax. So a reference to a reference to a video. Hardly a reason to start screaming TERROR TERROR!!! The sources supplied do not incriminate anyone.
Osama can say what ever he likes, he doesn't have the power to stand down the US air-force. He didn't ship the gold out of those banks, he didn't lease the WTC 30 days before the event and earn billions in insurance fees like Silverstein & co did.
Osama most certainly didn't blow up building 7. He didn't place the pre collapse explosives. Because he simply doesn't have the power to do so. Ow, wait you still have to come up with evidence he was actually invoved?
The whole page is 100% propaganda.
It starts off like this!!
The September 11, 2001 attacks consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist[2] suicide attacks by Islamic extremists on that date upon the United States of America..
What terrorists?
what suicide attacks?
What Islamic extremists?
What ARE YOU CRAZY PEOPLE?? HUH??
You cant refer to a religion as being extremist and terrorists. You cant even make the link with the religion evident. This is just SLANDER. Specially when you don't make it evident but just pull this kind of statements out of the blue sky.
Is it still an encyclopedia if I refer to OPEC as a Catholic extremist terrorist cell? Extorting global oil supplies? TERROR TERROR!!
Does it sound flavored or objective to you?
This is why the page should be deleted. People refer to this wiki as a reference to what really happened. And the page stacks lies upon lies upon lies. It's disgusting, lets delete it?
Let them take their war of terror some place else. The intention is to scare people into worshiping their government. We shall have non of that here. I'm not a religious man but I know for sure this is not the place for you to call Muslims terrorist extremists using Donald duck references.
I'm not putting this up for debate either. The Ali Baba and the 50 virgin terrorists hoax story can-not be backed up with evidence. The scientific method demands looking at all the data supplied, not just small chunks that support your war agenda.
All pseudoscience must go, specially the social engineering kind.
( Gaby de wilde 19:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC))
As a neutral editor who has not had anything to do with this particular article at any time, I believe it is time to have a (relatively) neutral editor have their say.
In response to claims that the word 'terrorist' is extreme and should not be used on this page, I put forward that many people, from the Dalai Lama to President Bush to former Prime Minister Blair have referred to the hijackers as such. This word has been bandied about so much that it has entered into public use, not only in America but in other countries as well. It is our duty as editors to record this. Whether or not all editors agree with this usage, it is the mainstream usage and should be used in the article, even if a note is added to point out alternative words to 'terrorist.'
In response to claims that the hijackers should not be referred to as 'Islamic extremists,' I sympathize, I really do. I understand that such a reference can hurt the reputation of the entire religion. However, it is an accepted fact, supported by what evidence is available, that these men were motivated by their devotion to an extremist sect of Islam. This does not mean that all Muslims are extremists, nor does it mean that the extremists are even accepted by mainstream Muslims. My advice would be to keep references to the men as Islamic extremists as non-accusatory as possible, but to leave them where they are. Since that is how the hijackers are viewed by the majority of people, those references have a place in this article.
In response to personal attacks, as well as flame and edit wars, taking place on this article, I offer a piece of advice- leave it. If you really feel that something is wrong and should be corrected, and you have the references to prove it, then come to the talk page and discuss it. If such an edit can be added as an alternative viewpoint alongside the mainstream one, then by all means. But on no account should any alternative viewpoint completely replace the mainstream viewpoint. The ideal here is to have both viewpoints existing side-by-side on the same article, without conflict over which one is 'the right one.' Wikipedia is for facts, not for opinions of the individual.
Please think over my advice for awhile, and try to put the ridiculous edit wars here in light of how an editor should do his or her business- with others, peacefully and with teamwork. This kind of foolishness benefits none, and hurts the credibility and reputation of Wikipedia as a whole.
Sageofwisdom 19:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
If I might: before the discussion regarding whether or not the people involved in the attacks of 2001 were "terrorists", or even before the argument on whether it is possible to use the phrase in accordance with Wikipedia policies, there is something on which I daresay sould agree:
Hence, I think that there are very good practical reasons to avoid the term, and none to endorse it. Rama 11:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
, [21], [22], [23], [24], [25] Mr.grantevans2 14:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Arthur Rubin. Has anyone considered keeping the attack itself as a terrorist attack (almost universally accepted fact) while not calling the hijackers themselves terrorists?. Wayne 09:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
(In response to a request for help on WT:NPOV)
The principle that "terrorist" is a non-neutral word when used in Wikipedia's voice has been well-established in Wikipedia for a long time. It should not drag on this long here.
Neutrality does not merely mean "what reliable sources say". It is not necessarily a neutral description, if the US, UK, Dictionary, or ones grandmother, calls (or doesn't call) a certain group "terrorists". That is important to understand. This is Wikipedia, it is a neutral encyclopedia, and it has its own communal consensus and standards. These apply, and not standards and views which may arise outside it.
In terms of "Words to avoid" ( WP:WTA), the emphasis is that a term which conveys a view of agreement with one "side" of some matter, should where practical be replaced by a term that does not favor the views of either side. We look for words that charactize and do not label, if there is contention. "Militant", "Bomber", "Hijacker" and "Activist" are characterizations. The word "Terrorist", by long standing communal view, is not.
(We can notionally test this. Both sides would probably agree that Al Qaeda members are "activists", and both sides would agree they are militant - as opposed to pacifist. Both sides would agree the various aircraft were hijacked, and both would agree that other acts by Al Qaeda included "bombers". But only one side is evidenced as calling the perpetrators "Terrorists". Why? Because it is a non-neutral term.)
Outside in everyday life, one can use terms as one wishes. On Wikipedia, neutrality comes first, and the definition of neutrality here is not "what the dictionary says" sometimes. It's what people would feel if we as a project added our authority to a word use. If Wikipedia labels a group as "Terrorist", it adds that we view it that way. Individual editors may do so privately -- but the project as a whole, which editors represent when writing articles -- does not.
A good and precise article is possible and practical, without adding our own coloration to the description of facts.
FT2 ( Talk | email) 15:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I know this has gone on for a bit, but I'd just thought I'd add: In all of this, hasn't WP:TERRORIST been misinterpreted? Isn't it the use of the noun "terrorist" that is legislated against, rather than the adjective? The adjective "terrorist" can be applied to any act or ploy aimed at against a civilian population to induce terror; and thus a terrorist actcan be carried out by almost any organisation, whether it be a government, group of freedom fighters or terrorists. The US tactics abroad have at times been "terrorist", although obviously they are not terrorists; and the contras, regrdless of whether you consider them freedom fighters or not, their actions were aimed to induce terror and so were "terrorist". Wireless99 16:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Part correct, Haemo, and part less so. The majority of what you say is accurate. "Most reliable sources call them terrorists, and to not state that they are described as such by most countries would be improper. The question is purely whether Wikipedia, in Wikipedias voice should do so, and on that score the view is its not good practice, for the reasons given. Not least of which is, as you say it's often heard as a pejorative. Citing is easy - a list of "for examples" in the footnote.
Your point beyond that though, needs correcting. The fact that a term is academically correct, like a term which is dictionary correct, does not mean it is popularly neutral. For other examples of possible pejoratives and judgementals with precise academic and dictionary meanings, see words such as "myth" and "cult", that are also considered WP:WTA's. FT2 ( Talk | email) 05:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Wireless99's challenge of the word's application got me thinking about this.
Perhaps we are tangled up in the hood ornament when we should be looking at the engine to see if the hood ornament is on the right car? Perhaps our "reliable sources" have, as a consequence of their usual lazy way, been driving around a Ford with a Mercedes hood ornament? To be clear, perhaps some of the sources which have been using the term "terrorists" say right in their articles that the intention of the terrorists is something other than to instill fear; something like retribution or to destroy an American icon for example.
Several contributors are saying;
terrorism/terrorist activity "involves an intent to cause fear"
We may be looking at it from the standpoint of which reliable sources use the term terrorist. Perhaps we should be looking for reliable sources which address the intent of the attack? It seems to me that the intention to cause fear is an integral part of the term and we may well find that there is not a broad universal agreement among reliable sources as to the hijackers' intent; in which case that would allow us to design wording which meets all of our guidelines. I realize my point is a bit esoteric but I also believe that if we find/think there is a conflict between the generally accepted usage of the word to describe the attack and the generally accepted intentions of the hijackers that the latter would trump because it (intent)is the essence of the former. Mr.grantevans2 01:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
There was no evidence of any type of explosive bombs what really brought the towers down was the fire. When you enter 10,000 gallons of jet fuel into an office building and you have steel thrust contruction like the trade centers did, they warped bent and gradually was more then the building could handle. As for Unitied airlines 93 was not shot down but brought down by the hijackers when the passangers of flight 93 fought back and stopped them. The 9/11 Commission reported that "authorities suggested that U.S. air defenses had reacted quickly, that jets had been scrambled in response to the last two hijackings and that fighters were prepared to shoot down United Airlines Flight 93 if it threatened Washington. In fact, the commission reported a year later, audiotapes from NORAD's Northeast headquarters and other evidence showed clearly that the military never had any of the hijacked airliners in its sights and at one point chased a phantom aircraft — American Airlines Flight 11 — long after it had crashed into the World Trade Center," according to CNN.com. Furthermore, the closest fighters were about 100 miles away and were unarmed. Fighters also went after a Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 which was suspected to be hijacked though it was later determined untrue and the plane was safe. Alauran 05:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Its apparent to me that whilst the debate is nowhere near over, asking for help from WP:NPOV and WP:TERRORIST and getting a fresh perspective has moved the discussion forward a lot more than my previous arguments. In that vein, I'd like to offer this point to discuss. Please don't simply repeat what you've posted before, as I feel we are finally starting to make some progress.
Compare the following two beginning sentences:
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist suicide attacks by Islamic extremists on that date upon the United States of America.
and
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated suicide attacks by Islamic extremists on that date upon the United States of America.
Can those who advocate the inclusion of the word 'terrorist' tell me, what useful meaning is conveyed in the first sentence that isn't conveyed in the second? Damburger 20:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist[1-100] suicide attacks[1-20] by Islamic extremists[1-22] on that date upon the United States of America.
Does anyone want to actually answer my question? Damburger 21:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
You don't have to justify the non-presence of words in wikipedia, if you did they would be filled with nonsense. You have to justify the presence of words. This should be a no-brainer. Damburger 22:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
The answer to the question, Damburger, is that you cannot remove "terrorist" from The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist suicide attacks... because they were terrorists! Arthur Rubin is absolutely right. This is not in dispute, except by you. It's just getting ridiculous. As I've stated several times, if the official accounts of 9/11 are wrong (if the US Government had a hand in it, or if Islamic extremists didn't do it) the people who performed the acts of 9/11 were terrorists. Why can't you get this through your head? Jeffrey Dahmer was a serial killer, so that's what his article says. Over and over you're arguing that "this was terrorism but not performed by terrorists." What the heck is that? Timneu22 22:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, to keep on track I'll make those modifications:
Now, can someone please tell me what extra meaning the first sentence carries, and how that additional meaning improves the article? Damburger 07:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Damburger, a suicide attack and a terrorist suicide attack are two very different things. If you just take the the sentence out of context for a second, the first only implies that the authors wanted to kill themselves as well as those that were killed with them. The second phrase implies that the authors wanted there to be political consequences to the attack, which is exactly what the hijackers wanted (unless the only reason why they flew into the towers was for the 40 virgins in heaven....) Wireless99 15:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
What has been verified is that they were members of alqaeda, and that al qaeda'a purpose in sending them on that suicide mission was unreservedly politico-ideological. They joined al qaeda with this knowledge, and if all they wanted was the 40 virgins they would have to be pretty stupid. Also, and this is in now way an endorsment of al qaeda: but say what you want about them they are not stupid or naive. They are a very secretive organisation and would not recruit simpletons who are only in it because they think they will get to have sex with 40 pretty girls at the end of it. They recruit those who have some degree of intelligence, and with an unwavering commitment to their ideology. This is not really speculation here. Wireless99 16:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
This source describes an effective helicopter airlift from the World Trade Center in 1993. [27] The source cited stated that helicopter rescue would be "impractical", but I don't interpret it to be worded strongly enough to indicate for sure that absolutely no one escaped by helicopter. Can someone think of a source that says categorically that absolutely no one made it out from the roof in a chopper? Wnt ( talk) 03:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 |
The use of the word 'terrorist' in the lead in section is unacceptable, according to wikipedias own policy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Extremist.2C_terrorist_and_freedom_fighter
The word is used in the narrative voice, and the citation doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Damburger 23:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
This question is based in the argument over what " terrorism" means. In fact, Wikipedia has an article about the differing definitions of terrorism. As the article states:
The definition of terrorism is inherently controversial. The use of violence for the achievement of political ends is common to state and non-state groups. The difficulty is in agreeing on a basis for determining when the use of violence (directed at whom, by whom, for what ends) is legitimate. The majority of definitions in use have been written by agencies directly associated with a government, and are systematically biased to exclude governments from the definition. [1]
As a result of what is an academic and political argument we, as an encyclopedia, are left to decide how things should be phrased. However, we are bound by neutral point of view to follow the lead that a substantial number of reliable and unbiased sources have taken — namely, the appellation of the "terrorist" moniker. A selection of these sources includes the United Nations, [2] The Washington Post, [3] the Christian Science Monitor, [4] and The Guardian, [5] to name but a few. A Google News search brings up many other examples. Thus, though we, as editors, may personally disagree with the term used, as an encyclopedia we are bound to use the term which has gained near-universal acceptance and refer the exact debate over the term to other pages, such as the linked definition of terrorism article. Alternative terms suggested, like militant or freedom fighter either confuse the issue for a general reader, or are inherently relativistic in nature, and inappropriate in an encyclopedic context. The article strives to minimize the use of this controversial term in anything other than an unequivocal context; hence the use of "hijackers", specific names, and organizations instead of the blanket "terrorists".
Not one bit of this matters. The rules regarding the word 'terrorist' are crystal clear, and this is a violation of them.
Also, this 'FAQ' is just something a guy made it. It has no authority here as far as I can see. So we can just ignore it and stick to actual wikipedia policy, k? Damburger 00:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
<-----The above series of straw statements and questions are still personal attacks and claims of superiority. See: WP:OR, WP:NPOV, and WP:UNDUE.-- Cberlet 01:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll bite... if they aren't terrorists, what are they? -- Tarage 03:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
You won't even need to say he was evil. That is why the article on Hitler does not start with "Hitler was a bad man"—we don't need to, his deeds convict him a thousand times over. We just list the facts of the Holocaust dispassionately, and the voices of the dead cry out afresh in a way that makes name-calling both pointless and unnecessary. Please do the same: list Saddam's crimes, and cite your sources.
The fact that the article about Hitler doesn't say "he was evil" is because he was much more than that. He was a man, and the chief of government. And he has been judged you are right about that. But using this as an excuse for trashing America and trying to insert the "anti-american" strike to this is BS. These men considered their only aim in life to destroy America, and to kill people on this very day. Saying they are terrorist is not judgemental, it's true. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, that means it aim to sum-up everything we know, but that doesn't seem we don't have to call a cat a cat. Because Hitler and the Nazis have been judged at Nuremberg, you can begin the article about Hitler by everything you want. But terrorist of 9/11 haven't been judged because they choose the violence instead of trying to protest peacefully. And because they haven't been judged that essentially denies us to treat them as History objects, like we can do with Hitler. Even if you hate America, it doesn't stop the fact that 3000 people were killed here. And if this article would have been redacted by a French guy, it would have been the same. I am for peace and I love diversity, but the fact that I love diversity doesn't mean I have to accept what touches human dignity. The fact that sexual mutilations is a religious tradition in some parts of Africa doesn't mean I have to accept that generations of women have to suffer a barbarian treatment.
You keep saying Americans are trying to impose a point of view, but what are doing when you keep on saying : "stop imposing a POV on us". YOU are trying to impose the POV that what people did this very day may be considered decent and right in some countries, and that we should accept that fact as a part of ethnic diversity and try to undrstand them. But did the terrorist in these planes this fateful day tried to undrstand the scared people in the planes? Did they gave them a chance to understand and reached out for them.
Guantanamo is wrong because it lowers America to their level, but that doesn't mean we should accept that there are people out there willing to kill 3000 persons to express their POV and that that is their right. Have a little decency for human dignity, please.
Now for what concerns Wikipedia policy, I think this is an exception, because every reliable source (even Ben Laden himself) said at least once the word 'terrorist' to apply to these guys.
And not just American newspapers, but all over the world.
[User:Anne-Caroline Sieffert] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.230.56.132 ( talk) 16:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Please take into consideration Damburger's possible reasoning. The user states to having Aspergers Syndrome on his userpage. Some of the clinical features are:
I'm not trying to say to allow him special treatment, but only understanding of what is behind his comments and edits. The people who have this syndrome can have very high intelligence, but seem to lack common sense. I'm not saying that Damburger lacks commonsense at all. But, please keep this in mind when dealing with him/her that there may be a medical problem associated with problematic social interactions. Thanks. - Jeeny Talk 22:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I resent that. I have Asperger's Syndrome myself, and to use that as an excuse for behavior is an insult. All of my life I have explain to people that while I have this disorder, it is not a crutch. I may dissagree with Damburger, but it is highly innapropriate to bring a medical condition into this. Please think next time you post. -- Tarage 02:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
People are readding the POV word terrorist (disallowed by wikipedia, as I've outlined above) with the description "per talk" or "see talk" - despite the fact these editors have not contributed to the talk page at all! I have repeatedly described how and why, according to wikipedia, IT DOES NOT MATTER how many people say a group/event is terrorist: its against wikipedia policy to use the word in the narrative voice at all. The only responses have been citations of people who describe these attacks as terrorist - completely ignoring the very valid point I've made. Yet editors still continue to be so confident they've 'won' this debate that they keep readding the word as if the dispute has been resolved in their favour. Is there nobody editing this article that is even slightly reasonable, or even willing to read and understand a counterargument? Damburger 13:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:TERRORIST clearly points out why this is an inherently POV word. The UN may consider it terrorism, many others don't. You may add a line to the article stating "XXX says they were terrorist attacks", but not "they were terrorist attacks". This is a controversial and disputed matter, so you shouldn't state it as a fact. Mel sa ran 14:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's the text from WP:TERRORIST: In line with the Wikipedia Neutral Point of View policy, the words "Extremist", "Terrorist" and "Freedom fighter" should be avoided unless there is a verifiable citation indicating who is calling a person or group by one of those names in the standard Wikipedia format of "X says Y". In an article the words should be avoided in the unqualified "narrative voice" of the article. I think that's pretty clear. It also makes sense. Rklawton 16:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Should the word 'terrorism' be used in the narrative voice in this article? Is it disallowed by WP:TERRORIST?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Extremist.2C_terrorist_and_freedom_fighter
The word is used in the narrative voice, and the citation doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Damburger 23:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I think complying with WP:TERRORIST wouldn't be all that hard. Indeed, it may well make the article more informative. Here's an example of the sort of changes we'd need to make:
By removing the blanket "terrorist" word, we can substitute in more descriptive and neutral words. Rklawton 16:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Id like to add that the debate isn't about how many sources say the attacks were terrorist attacks, or how authoritative those sources were - its about the validity of using sources to decide this at all. I think WP:TERRORIST plainly indicates it is not valid. Damburger 16:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I think WP:TERRORIST, as a guideline, is trumped by the policy WP:NPOV, which clearly indicates that "terrorist" is the word to use. No other word will fit. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
If the opposition has no more arguments (which seems the case) I think its time to remove the word. The only reasons not to have been absolutely debunked (although that hasn't stopped proponents continuing to push them). Damburger 09:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this discussion has run its course. I am still thoroughly convinced of my arguments, as are some others, and I can't see a single valid point raised by the opposition. They are unlikely to admit that, of course. This hasn't been as productive as I had hoped, so I am going to try a different angle. Damburger 20:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Friends, many of you strongly oppose my opinion that it is not certain that 911 was perpetrated as an outside attack. (In fact, I believe the most likely explanation is that it would be an inside job.) So be it. It's a free world, anyone can believe whatever he/she likes. I can and you can.
Nonetheless, there is a tremendous amount of facts that we DO all agree on. Why not move the current article to "the official account of the September 11, 2001 attacks" and have a neutrally worded article about the vast amount of undisputed material instead? The way this has been going for years, it's such a waste of our energy, folks!
Suggesting a new lead:
And then the rest of the events which are not disputed, worded with a neutral narrative (not labeling 'terrorism'), and attributing viewpoints.
Rationale: I do not think we will easily reach consensus on this article. Clearly the editors which advocate the official story have a need for the article to be according to their view of the world, and are abhorred by wording it neutrally. Therefor, I think the best solution is to have a consensus article and a seperate article for the mainstream view. — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 14:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The page has been protected following a request at WP:RFPP. I hope that we can solve this issue on the talk page. Mel sa ran 15:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
"widely regard as" is not needed. Simply terrorist, accompanied by references will suffice. So, it would be terrorist [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] and need to add some more sources. Or per WP:NPOV#Undue weight, we could simply say terrorist with the single U.N. reference. -- Aude ( talk) 18:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, we have wikipedia guidelines. We have WP:TERRORIST, part of the Manual of Style, which says that, as quoted above, the word should not be used in the narrative voice. Why not? Use of the terms "extremist", "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" implies a moral judgment; and if one party can successfully attach the label to a group, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its moral viewpoint. The question is, then: is there anyone who isn't persuaded that these hijackers were terrorists? Are there people who think that they didn't intentionally kill themselves and thousands of others in order to further their ulterior motives?
We also have WP:NPOV, a non-negotiable pillar of wikipedia - the only one, I believe JW said - which says that something can't be stated as fact unless it is generally accepted as such. Things which are not generally accepted (in other words, opinions) can be converted into facts by attributing them to a reliable source. So I guess question two is, are there any non- fringe observers who seriously dispute that this attack is the textbook case of terrorism? In other words, would it give undue weight to tiny-minority views to define this event as anything other than a terrorist attack? Sheffield Steel talkers stalkers 03:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
...(continued from #back to the polls)
I think there is a paradox. In the September 11, 2001 attacks, there are two major suspects: Osama bin Laden and an alleged shadow government. Now, in order to establish which due weight to give to either the mainstream view or to conspiracy views:
It appears to me that this is a snake biting its own tail. When following this process, it is absolutely impossible for wikipedia to write about crimes committed by the establishment neutrally unless they themselves admit it. Every other authority is denied. Every expert, major politician that speaks out is set in a corner a lone lunatic.
This cannot be the way forward? We must be able to find a better way to find some balance between what to include and what to leave out? — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 17:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
This alledged shadow government isn't a major suspect, making this entire discussion pointless. RxS 19:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Look, according to recent polls, something like 40% of the American public does not believe the "official" account of what happened on 9/11. On a related note, on the order to 60% of the American public does not believe in the theory of evolution. Both are based on pretty much the same level of evidence, and display about the same level of acceptance in credible experts and reliable sources. They also both, in the stead of the so-called "official" version have a literal zoo of different explanations, which have no support by qualified and credible experts. As the evolution article does, we devote a small section of the article to a discussion of these alternative theories, and link to an extensive sub-article where they are treated in depth. Wikipedia is not the court of popular opinion, it's not a democracy, and it's not a vote; it's a reference encyclopedia. If you read above, or here you can see an explanation for why the article is the way it is. Essentially, in compromising the lead, which is supposed to summarize the article, by saying things like "according to the official account" or something similar, you give an absolutely staggering amount of undue weight to these theories, which have no support by credible experts. It's the equivalent of writing the lead of Hitler to say "Adolf Hitler was Chancellor of Germany in 1933, and Führer from 1934 to 1945. He led the National Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, the Nazi Party. Some believe he escaped Germany and now lives in Argentina." It not only totally misrepresents the article which follows, in violation of our guidelines, but gives a far too much credence to a fringe theory about Hitler's death. -- Haemo 23:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
In response to the self-eating snake metaphor - it has a corollary, too. Consider, for instance, a Paranoid Nut Job who shows up to Wikipedia one day to teach the world about some big secret. Paranoid Nut Job eventually finds himself blocked for disruption (or whatever). Paranoid Nut Job now has another bit of "evidence" of a vast conspiracy – one that now includes Wikipedia. Now, how are we to tell the difference between a self-eating snake and the work of a Paranoid Nut Job? That's why we pretty much stick to verifiable, reliable sources. Rklawton 02:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sick of this. I'm sick of the endless debates that go nowhere, and those who attempt to try every concievable method to push the same flawed idealogoly. I'm sick of the constant revert wars. If you are sick of this, let your voice be heard here. I propose no more pointless debates. No more "but they aren't 'really' terrorists". No more "this article has POV problems." Maybe if enough of us stand up and say Enough, we can move beyond this pointless argument. Who is with me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarage ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 16 August 2007
I know this is a pretty minor thing to bring up, but we've got 177 refs here. What do people think of a four col reflist? -- Anonymous Dissident Talk 05:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
As I said above, I have no problems with the term "terrorist" or "terror-act". Indeed it
was an act of terror.
However it is important to understand that in this context the term "terrorist" is designed.
Designed to function like: "Which" in Europe between 1450 and 1700; like "Jude" in Germany
1930-1945; and "Communist" in USA and Western Europe 1945-1980.
Like the other examples, the term is designed to create these effects:
As it is now, the article is advocating the above statments.
And to #Enough: If the majority at school are beating and harassing you. And there comes a point where you speak up. Or somebody is speaking up for you. What is it enough of? Harassing/beating or speaking up? Geir 08:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
In western countries we see those attackers as "terrorists" because they attacked the US, but in certain middle eastern countries, the foreign policy of the US is seen as very invasive and as a danger. See also the section Statements by others in this article which is giving reasons why a palestinian or a person with arabic background may think of the 911 attackers as "freedom figthers".
The problem of calling someone a "terrorist" or a "freedom fighter" is always determined by the point of view of the narrator. For example when the US financed the Taliban in the 1980s in order to combat russia, no one in the western countries referred to them as terrorists but rather as freedom fighters against communism. But for Russia they were seen as Terrorists. So for me the T-Word is never NPOV ! It is hard for someone who's country has been attacked to have NPOV but that is exactly why there are guidelines! Of course it is necessary to mention that most of the western countries see 911 as a terrorist attack.
Haemo has no background in physics or engineering and as such is not qualified to consider the evidence which proves beyond any doubt that the World Trade Center was destroyed by controlled demolitions which hence invalidates the grossly false suppositions of this page. Bofors7715 04:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me, are you claiming that is acceptable for an encyclopedia to include treasonous falsehoods? Bofors7715 04:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
No??? Then why are you are engaging in unacceptable behavior. Bofors7715 05:15, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
It has been proven beyond any doubt that the World Trade Center was destoryed by controlled demolitions. This section ignores that evidence and instead regurgitates US goverment propaganda from NIST. Bofors7715 04:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry but you are not qualified to determine what is a reliable source in engineering. Bofors7715 04:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry but your guidelines either do not apply in this case or are being misapplied. For example the NIST report on the collapse of the twin towers is not a reliable source. It is a highly doctored piece of spin. Please see this: http://blip.tv/file/306082/
“ | Any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's core content policies. | ” |
“It has been proven beyond any doubt that the World Trade Center was destoryed by controlled demolitions” - Wrong, it’s been speculated but never proven. If it is proven in the future the article will be changed, however it hasn’t so the article still stands in its current form. ~ NossB 14:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Please, kindly change the following sentence in the attacks section…
A third building, 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) collapsed at 5:20 p.m., after being heavily damaged by debris from the Twin Towers when they fell.
Into this one>
A third building, 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) collapsed at 5:20 p.m., the 47 stories building was not hit by plane, it collapsed without resistance in less than 7 seconds, after six years the official explanation of its collapse is still pending.
Reference: NIST Status Update on World Trade Center 7 Investigation
Feel free to improve the wording, many thanks. 89.172.46.93 14:30, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
To User:89.172.46.93, perhaps your edit should be revised to "although not impacted by an airplane, WTC fell after sustaining heavy damage from thousands of tons of structural steel beams dropped directly on the building from hundreds of feet above from the collapse of the north WTC tower along with several hours of fire damage fueled by thousands of gallons of heating oil stored in the basement. Emergency workers at the scene reported significant damage to the SW corner and predicated as early as 4:00pm that the building would collapse." 206.169.172.212 20:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, how much energy has been used here basically saying: "You're wrong, we're right"? It doesn't lead us anywhere, does it?
I want to focus on two goals for this article/subject:
I want a disambigued/main-page that says: "The mainstrea/majority-view of this event can be found here.." and "Another view(s) can be found here.." This article/discussion has proved beyond doubt that it is very hard to include any other points of view into the existing article. Thus, it can't function as a first-page for the subject.
I want a more neutral/objective language in this article. From "This-is-The-One-and-Only-Truth" to "Acording to the mainstream version it is so and so..". This is the wikipedian way of dealing with issues where there are conflicting/different views. Geir 11:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As far as I can see, two main themes keep recurring on this talk page:
1. Use of pejorative language such as 'terrorist', even with referencing, in the narrative voice
2. Presentation of the official account of events that day in the narrative voice
The debates keep going nowhere, and I believe it is mostly because of a group of entrenched editors who refuse to listen to arguments that run contrary to their own views - and have even stated so themselves: "I don't care about your argument anymore. It's wrong, and I'll fight till I'm banned against it." [3]
These editors dismiss anyone opposed to their vision for this article as "Fringe" without really having anything to back it up: "All other explanations are fringe theories with very little support." [4]. They have also suggested that those disagreeing with them be restricted in their capacity to edit the article. [5]
Does anyone have any suggestion for mediating this disagreement? This article can't develop if anyone opposed to its current slant is shouted down by people who have said they refuse to listen to counterargument and have dismissed all other opinions as 'fringe'? How is the rest of the community supposed to work with them? Damburger 22:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
A Scripps-Howard poll of 1,010 adults last month found that 36% of Americans consider it "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves. [6]
I'm sorry but it looks to me as if Haemo is using strawman arguments,perhaps unintentionally. I still say the discussion should concentrate on how to produce the best NPOV article rather than trying to justify sticking with a non-NPOV article. The 1st. paragraph as it now stands could just as well have been written by Karl Rove. Mr.grantevans2 12:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
About Haemo's argument about the use of the term "terrosism": he is completely ignoring the fact that WP:TERRORIST explicitly says that the use of this word "should be avoided in the unqualified "narrative voice" of the article": you can eventually write "X say Y is a terrorist" and cite the source. So it makes no sense to discuss about the many meanings of the word given the fact that we have a so clear rule to apply.-- Pokipsy76 16:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
The supporters of the word 'terrorism' seem to have run out of relevant arguments, being reduced to Tarages attitude of 'I've not got a leg to stand on, but I will fight to the death for my POV'. Can we finally remove the word now? Damburger 13:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
The 'Its just a guideline' angle is getting old. You still need a reason, other than it being a guideline, for disregarding it. It clearly states we should avoid using the word 'terrorist' in this manner, and you don't seem to have provided any real reason for its inclusion. Damburger 20:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Try this:
“ | Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle. According to Jimmy Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable." | ” |
Sheffield Steel talkers stalkers 20:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this has gone far enough, there's obviously not going to be a consensus on this. The discussion is just going round and round. Sometimes you just don't get your way...I'd suggest working on other articles for a while...there's plenty of POV issues around Wikipedia that could use some attention other then this page and the term in question. If you want to take this further you can always open an RFC. But it's important to remember that the person that's willing to argue the longest doesn't get his way by default...rope-a-dope doesn't work. You think you're right about this, others think they are right...you're not going to be able to sway them at this point so my suggestion is to move on, at least for now. Or open an RFC. Does anyoe mind if I close this section? RxS 20:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. I'm being accused of gaming the system by actually asked people to obey guidelines AND policy: I have explained time and time again how WP:NPOV [i]supports[/i] my argument because of the princple of 'let the facts speak for themselves' [13]. I won't simply sit down and shut up because I'm told to. My arguments in this matter are bulletproof, which is why everyone has refused to address them, and tries their best to ignore them. Trying to make wikipedia objective is not wasting anybodys time, or acting in bad faith. It is what editors are supposed to do. It is what I'm trying to do here, despite enourmous resistance from people with a clear agenda contrary to the aims of wikipedia. Damburger 15:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The self-proclaimed majority (which I do not believe is a true majority, simply a very vocal minority) refuses to listen to any line of reasoning that might contradict their worldview, and have explicitly stated as much (See Tarages comments). So how am I supposed to sway them, when they have said in advance they will not be swayed, ever, from their platform? By your 'logic', it would be thus impossible to change anything in any wikipedia article that had a handful of stubborn editors camping on it. You won't read this as you've ignored me, it seems, for calling you on your hypocrisy. I started this section to try and find a resolution to the dispute after the RfC failed to do anything but rehash the old debate (which was barely even a debate, as my points are consistently ignored and the other side have stated they will never concede anything they say as being wrong). The same thing has happened here. So, I will let this section die, but I will be opening another one - until we get this sorted. Damburger 16:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I searched but I don't think the damage to this building, its dismantling, or the two further (I would say) 9/11-related deaths that occurred there recently are in the article. Should we at least have some mention of it? -- Golbez 18:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I would first like to say that the following is not a personal attack - merely an observation. I have read through most of the talk page notes on this article and I do understand the policy on verifiability. But in my opinion, I feel the question of true impartiality must be brought up - especially after viewing the comments of Tarage. Seemingly, Tarage seems so passionate about going against governmental findings and mainstream theories, that his/her rebuttals against possible conspiracy discourse may actually keep future generations from coming to this site and getting the broad scope of what may have actually happened. I feel comments like "Because the conspiricy theories are all without substantial sources." show that Tarage believes the only credible source for information on September 11th is the government.
It's great to be a great American (if Tarage is an American, I can't say for sure), but to toss out comments by other posters simply because their comments didn't come from CNN, MSNBC, or FOX news, violates Wikipedia's own policy on neutrality. Comments like "Many many experts in many many feilds have concluded that what was documented by the 9/11 comission, as well as the Bush administration is what actually occured that way...you can argue till you are blue in the face, but the fact remains that islamic extremists flew jets into buildings on 9/11. You may not LIKE that, but it IS what happened." seems to denote that Tarage cannot even fathom the possibility that our government could have possibly done something that contradicts the "documentation". If the Nixon administration could cover up their actions against John Lennon back in the 70's or of course, Watergate, then could it not be possible that some of these "so-called" conspiracy theories may have some truth to them?
Example. In one of your earliest notes, you stated on the subject of opinion polls:
"Public oppinion polls can be quite flawed. For example, the way you phrase a question can change the answer people give. I'd have to know exactially what questions were asked, as well as the motive of the poll."
But, on another Wikipedia article, we could take a look at the approval rating polls of our current president. President Bush had an approval rating of 92 percent back in October 2001 (according to ABC). In July of 2007, his approval rating, according to ARG, was 25 percent. Now, would we exclude the ARG poll information simply because ARG may not be as recognizable to the general public as say ABC would be?
So, under conspiracy theories section, the comment "These theories are not accepted as credible by virtually all mainstream journalists, scientists, and political leaders, who have concluded that responsibility for the attacks and the resulting destruction rests with Al Qaeda.", despite article "verification", could be deemed as a statement of opinion, rather than a reflection of neutrality. My questions to Tarage would be:
1. What do you deem a credible source? Does this have to be a reasonably recognizable impartial news organization?
2. Do you believe that the news organizations of this country are, in fact, impartial?
3. If a news report (surfaced on any of these news sources) stated information that called into question or completely and undoubtedly refuted the information that is currently in your September 11th wiki article, would you post that information in depth upon it being posted to Wikipedia or would you allow your our personal feelings on the subject to prevent you from doing so?
Again, this is not a personal attack. I'm just merely trying to understand why it seems that you, Tarage, are trying to keep information off the article, when it is obvious that numerous people have brought up stronger points for not just a quick inclusion in the article of the fact conspiracy theories on 9/11 exist, but these points make a good case for there to be a broader discussion in this article about some of the points brought up by these theories. I understand that their is a seperate article for the theories, but I must agree with some of the previous posters - this article is far from neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kct2002us ( talk • contribs) 03:09, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
All fine and good, but if you look at Tarage's previous remarks on the subject (on this talk page), does it not seem that the whole "Reliable Sources" policy is more subjective and based on opinion than anything else? You have some people who don't believe that news sources such as CNN or Fox News are actually reporting on the actual news or perhaps that they twist the news based on their political leanings or monetary persuasions. This is the same opinions people would have for those news mediums that feel their may be merit to the conspiracy theories. Doesn't this make the "Reliable Sources" policy seem somewhat one-sided? Both sides of the argument could claim that evidence can be seen for their points of view. Why just placate to one particular point of view? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kct2002us ( talk • contribs) 19:52, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
I know I'm being pedantic but shouldn't the article be named "September 11, 2001, attacks" (with a comma between 2001 and attacks)? I believe that's more grammatically correct. Or was there some reason the comma is missing? -- tariqabjotu 16:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
That section is getting a little big, but that still doesn't invalidate the dispute:
These arguments have not been refuted. Those who want to keep the word in have simply maintained that they will revert edits regardless of what anyone else says. [16] I have been the subject of accusations [17] of acting in bad faith, and then been told to apologise to the same author moments later for turning these accusations back against him [18]. For pointing out his hypocrisy, he put me on ignore.
This level of debate is not healthy. Can someone actually address the points above? Otherwise, simply concede that use of the word is not objective, and is contrary to Wikipedia rules and guidelines. Damburger 16:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
To address Damburger's points in order...
It seems to me that a correct interpretation of WP:NPOV is the only issue before us. Sheffield Steel talkers stalkers 17:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Are we done yet? Or is Damburger's temper tantrum going to be allowed to continue till it fills up another page? -- Tarage 05:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I was just looking at all of the inventors who don't deserve a wikipedia page because of a lack of mainstream confirmation of their invention. I had to learn to respect the way wikipedia works right there. This makes me think the amount of pseudo science on this page should make it more then worthy of deletion, Wikipedia should not function as a platform to advertise a minority opinion as scientific fact. The page doesn't mention doubt about the subject, everything written goes without proper scientific evidence. Who brought Osama bin Laden into this story? I really want to hear how he relates to this before reading "he did it!!" in the wiki. Don't you actually have to prove some one did something? Lets agree to disagree and delete the page. There are so much lies on it it's broken beyond repair.( Gaby de wilde 17:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC))
Hey, wait a minute? You talk about me and call me an idiot AND move my article but you don't reply to me? This is just rude trolling IMHO.
At least state your opinion?( Gaby de wilde 19:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC))
The article assumes a consensus that does not exist. It makes no reference to other points of view such as science! It represents everything what propaganda stands for. You are right of course when you say you do have to find reliable sources. The claim this is not a highly controversial topic is easy to disprove. My claim remains: This is a subject of extreme controversy, such discussion has no place in wikipedia. And stop deleting everything I write here will you? ( Gaby de wilde 21:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC))
No it was this
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/10/29/binladen_message041029.html
Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden appeared in a new message aired on an Arabic TV station Friday night, for the first time claiming direct responsibility for the 2001 attacks against the United States.
But no reference to the actual video is made on this page. So the page is just a reference in it self. It does not contain any content.
The locked page uses words like TERRORIST and has an extremely PROPAGANDA like nature. It tries to force a consensus upon the reader that doesn't exist.
The official story is a conspiracy theory.
The global scientific consensus is that the buildings got blown up.
Kerosene doesn't get hot enough to create pre-collapse explosions in the basement. Or is a pre-collapse victim in a hospital bed not a credible source?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSGZYP--wz0
If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure -Mark Loizeaux, president, Controlled Demolition Inc.
So that means EXPLOSIONS not COLLAPSE. And what about the thermite? They may have tried to ship all evidence to china the 5000 megawatt afterglow is something you will have to explain for before you quote a news article as a scientific fact.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/thermite.htm
The official story is nonsense. This everyone knows already. But feel free to explain why didn't jets intercept the airliners since they had numerous warnings of terrorist attacks. Why were there no photos or videos of the Pentagon plane? Why did the private footage need to be confiscated. Where the reported to be found flight recorders are. How Bush could see the first plane crash on live camera. You may explain why the official story is so full of such non scientific nonsense. And most of all we need some explanation of why the official story needs to be supported by removing evidence.
I think those are honest questions. How can there be 10 000 videos on google video all claiming controlled demolition. While some artificial consensus is enforced here?
Please don't just delete my arguments again.
( Gaby de wilde 22:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC))
But ok, lets try discuss the article.
Why not have A paragrhap about the evidence getting shiped off sight? Be honest?
Various conspiracy theories have emerged as a reaction to the attacks suggesting that individuals outside of the terrorist organization Al Qaeda knew of, planned, or carried out the attacks.[126] These theories are not accepted as credible by virtually all mainstream journalists, scientists, and political leaders, who have concluded that responsibility for the attacks and the resulting destruction rests with Al Qaeda.
I find the the official story to be one heap of nonsense. The sincere questions about the hiding of practically all evidence should be mentioned here. The thousands of questions about the topic should not merely be generalised as conspiracy nuttery in one single paragraph. They should all have their own Q and A. If anything should be labeled as conspiracy theory it should be the official story.
I find spontaneous pancake dustification of skyscrapers pseudo-scientific nonsense of the highest order.
Then the story wants 3 of those caused by 2 aluminum jets? Almost all the kerosene burns off on impact but there is enough left to melt steel? This while it doesn't actually get anywhere near the temperature in the real world of science. The impact of a jet is no where near the pressure the wind creates. People who worked in the building for years got blown up in the basement. How much more pseudo-scientific does it get I wonder? Explosions + not enough impact + not enough jet fuel + it didn't get hot enough = controlled demolition
no? please explain your answer. The article should contain the cop-out excuses commonly used by the mainstream media in order to get away from the facts. Not the other way around, you cant quote up an article out of chunks of clear nonsense and rationalise it by saying it was written in the bible of mainstream media. The truth is not the property of news agencies to make of what they like.
I'm not putting this up for debate, it is my opinion the story should go as it's not based on scientific facts.
( Gaby de wilde 23:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC))
My point is that the posters above have no intention to ever create a decent page about this topic, they have been unable to up to this point. The page is locked while it uses slander and propaganda of the highest order.
Take this:
That morning nineteen terrorists[3] affiliated with al-Qaeda[4] hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners.
REFERENCE 3
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2001/09/12/AR2005033107980.html No one claimed responsibility for the attacks, but federal officials said they suspect the involvement of Islamic extremists with links to fugitive terrorist Osama bin Laden, who has been implicated in the 1998 bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa and several other attacks.
In other words: This news article does not confirm the claim in any way.
REFERRENCE 4
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/10/29/binladen_message041029.html Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden appeared in a new message aired on an Arabic TV station Friday night, for the first time claiming direct responsibility for the 2001 attacks against the United States.
this article still does not prove anything, it is a reference to a reference, the actual video is not supplied. The video is also a known hoax. So a reference to a reference to a video. Hardly a reason to start screaming TERROR TERROR!!! The sources supplied do not incriminate anyone.
Osama can say what ever he likes, he doesn't have the power to stand down the US air-force. He didn't ship the gold out of those banks, he didn't lease the WTC 30 days before the event and earn billions in insurance fees like Silverstein & co did.
Osama most certainly didn't blow up building 7. He didn't place the pre collapse explosives. Because he simply doesn't have the power to do so. Ow, wait you still have to come up with evidence he was actually invoved?
The whole page is 100% propaganda.
It starts off like this!!
The September 11, 2001 attacks consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist[2] suicide attacks by Islamic extremists on that date upon the United States of America..
What terrorists?
what suicide attacks?
What Islamic extremists?
What ARE YOU CRAZY PEOPLE?? HUH??
You cant refer to a religion as being extremist and terrorists. You cant even make the link with the religion evident. This is just SLANDER. Specially when you don't make it evident but just pull this kind of statements out of the blue sky.
Is it still an encyclopedia if I refer to OPEC as a Catholic extremist terrorist cell? Extorting global oil supplies? TERROR TERROR!!
Does it sound flavored or objective to you?
This is why the page should be deleted. People refer to this wiki as a reference to what really happened. And the page stacks lies upon lies upon lies. It's disgusting, lets delete it?
Let them take their war of terror some place else. The intention is to scare people into worshiping their government. We shall have non of that here. I'm not a religious man but I know for sure this is not the place for you to call Muslims terrorist extremists using Donald duck references.
I'm not putting this up for debate either. The Ali Baba and the 50 virgin terrorists hoax story can-not be backed up with evidence. The scientific method demands looking at all the data supplied, not just small chunks that support your war agenda.
All pseudoscience must go, specially the social engineering kind.
( Gaby de wilde 19:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC))
As a neutral editor who has not had anything to do with this particular article at any time, I believe it is time to have a (relatively) neutral editor have their say.
In response to claims that the word 'terrorist' is extreme and should not be used on this page, I put forward that many people, from the Dalai Lama to President Bush to former Prime Minister Blair have referred to the hijackers as such. This word has been bandied about so much that it has entered into public use, not only in America but in other countries as well. It is our duty as editors to record this. Whether or not all editors agree with this usage, it is the mainstream usage and should be used in the article, even if a note is added to point out alternative words to 'terrorist.'
In response to claims that the hijackers should not be referred to as 'Islamic extremists,' I sympathize, I really do. I understand that such a reference can hurt the reputation of the entire religion. However, it is an accepted fact, supported by what evidence is available, that these men were motivated by their devotion to an extremist sect of Islam. This does not mean that all Muslims are extremists, nor does it mean that the extremists are even accepted by mainstream Muslims. My advice would be to keep references to the men as Islamic extremists as non-accusatory as possible, but to leave them where they are. Since that is how the hijackers are viewed by the majority of people, those references have a place in this article.
In response to personal attacks, as well as flame and edit wars, taking place on this article, I offer a piece of advice- leave it. If you really feel that something is wrong and should be corrected, and you have the references to prove it, then come to the talk page and discuss it. If such an edit can be added as an alternative viewpoint alongside the mainstream one, then by all means. But on no account should any alternative viewpoint completely replace the mainstream viewpoint. The ideal here is to have both viewpoints existing side-by-side on the same article, without conflict over which one is 'the right one.' Wikipedia is for facts, not for opinions of the individual.
Please think over my advice for awhile, and try to put the ridiculous edit wars here in light of how an editor should do his or her business- with others, peacefully and with teamwork. This kind of foolishness benefits none, and hurts the credibility and reputation of Wikipedia as a whole.
Sageofwisdom 19:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
If I might: before the discussion regarding whether or not the people involved in the attacks of 2001 were "terrorists", or even before the argument on whether it is possible to use the phrase in accordance with Wikipedia policies, there is something on which I daresay sould agree:
Hence, I think that there are very good practical reasons to avoid the term, and none to endorse it. Rama 11:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
, [21], [22], [23], [24], [25] Mr.grantevans2 14:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Arthur Rubin. Has anyone considered keeping the attack itself as a terrorist attack (almost universally accepted fact) while not calling the hijackers themselves terrorists?. Wayne 09:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
(In response to a request for help on WT:NPOV)
The principle that "terrorist" is a non-neutral word when used in Wikipedia's voice has been well-established in Wikipedia for a long time. It should not drag on this long here.
Neutrality does not merely mean "what reliable sources say". It is not necessarily a neutral description, if the US, UK, Dictionary, or ones grandmother, calls (or doesn't call) a certain group "terrorists". That is important to understand. This is Wikipedia, it is a neutral encyclopedia, and it has its own communal consensus and standards. These apply, and not standards and views which may arise outside it.
In terms of "Words to avoid" ( WP:WTA), the emphasis is that a term which conveys a view of agreement with one "side" of some matter, should where practical be replaced by a term that does not favor the views of either side. We look for words that charactize and do not label, if there is contention. "Militant", "Bomber", "Hijacker" and "Activist" are characterizations. The word "Terrorist", by long standing communal view, is not.
(We can notionally test this. Both sides would probably agree that Al Qaeda members are "activists", and both sides would agree they are militant - as opposed to pacifist. Both sides would agree the various aircraft were hijacked, and both would agree that other acts by Al Qaeda included "bombers". But only one side is evidenced as calling the perpetrators "Terrorists". Why? Because it is a non-neutral term.)
Outside in everyday life, one can use terms as one wishes. On Wikipedia, neutrality comes first, and the definition of neutrality here is not "what the dictionary says" sometimes. It's what people would feel if we as a project added our authority to a word use. If Wikipedia labels a group as "Terrorist", it adds that we view it that way. Individual editors may do so privately -- but the project as a whole, which editors represent when writing articles -- does not.
A good and precise article is possible and practical, without adding our own coloration to the description of facts.
FT2 ( Talk | email) 15:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I know this has gone on for a bit, but I'd just thought I'd add: In all of this, hasn't WP:TERRORIST been misinterpreted? Isn't it the use of the noun "terrorist" that is legislated against, rather than the adjective? The adjective "terrorist" can be applied to any act or ploy aimed at against a civilian population to induce terror; and thus a terrorist actcan be carried out by almost any organisation, whether it be a government, group of freedom fighters or terrorists. The US tactics abroad have at times been "terrorist", although obviously they are not terrorists; and the contras, regrdless of whether you consider them freedom fighters or not, their actions were aimed to induce terror and so were "terrorist". Wireless99 16:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Part correct, Haemo, and part less so. The majority of what you say is accurate. "Most reliable sources call them terrorists, and to not state that they are described as such by most countries would be improper. The question is purely whether Wikipedia, in Wikipedias voice should do so, and on that score the view is its not good practice, for the reasons given. Not least of which is, as you say it's often heard as a pejorative. Citing is easy - a list of "for examples" in the footnote.
Your point beyond that though, needs correcting. The fact that a term is academically correct, like a term which is dictionary correct, does not mean it is popularly neutral. For other examples of possible pejoratives and judgementals with precise academic and dictionary meanings, see words such as "myth" and "cult", that are also considered WP:WTA's. FT2 ( Talk | email) 05:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Wireless99's challenge of the word's application got me thinking about this.
Perhaps we are tangled up in the hood ornament when we should be looking at the engine to see if the hood ornament is on the right car? Perhaps our "reliable sources" have, as a consequence of their usual lazy way, been driving around a Ford with a Mercedes hood ornament? To be clear, perhaps some of the sources which have been using the term "terrorists" say right in their articles that the intention of the terrorists is something other than to instill fear; something like retribution or to destroy an American icon for example.
Several contributors are saying;
terrorism/terrorist activity "involves an intent to cause fear"
We may be looking at it from the standpoint of which reliable sources use the term terrorist. Perhaps we should be looking for reliable sources which address the intent of the attack? It seems to me that the intention to cause fear is an integral part of the term and we may well find that there is not a broad universal agreement among reliable sources as to the hijackers' intent; in which case that would allow us to design wording which meets all of our guidelines. I realize my point is a bit esoteric but I also believe that if we find/think there is a conflict between the generally accepted usage of the word to describe the attack and the generally accepted intentions of the hijackers that the latter would trump because it (intent)is the essence of the former. Mr.grantevans2 01:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
There was no evidence of any type of explosive bombs what really brought the towers down was the fire. When you enter 10,000 gallons of jet fuel into an office building and you have steel thrust contruction like the trade centers did, they warped bent and gradually was more then the building could handle. As for Unitied airlines 93 was not shot down but brought down by the hijackers when the passangers of flight 93 fought back and stopped them. The 9/11 Commission reported that "authorities suggested that U.S. air defenses had reacted quickly, that jets had been scrambled in response to the last two hijackings and that fighters were prepared to shoot down United Airlines Flight 93 if it threatened Washington. In fact, the commission reported a year later, audiotapes from NORAD's Northeast headquarters and other evidence showed clearly that the military never had any of the hijacked airliners in its sights and at one point chased a phantom aircraft — American Airlines Flight 11 — long after it had crashed into the World Trade Center," according to CNN.com. Furthermore, the closest fighters were about 100 miles away and were unarmed. Fighters also went after a Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 which was suspected to be hijacked though it was later determined untrue and the plane was safe. Alauran 05:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Its apparent to me that whilst the debate is nowhere near over, asking for help from WP:NPOV and WP:TERRORIST and getting a fresh perspective has moved the discussion forward a lot more than my previous arguments. In that vein, I'd like to offer this point to discuss. Please don't simply repeat what you've posted before, as I feel we are finally starting to make some progress.
Compare the following two beginning sentences:
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist suicide attacks by Islamic extremists on that date upon the United States of America.
and
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated suicide attacks by Islamic extremists on that date upon the United States of America.
Can those who advocate the inclusion of the word 'terrorist' tell me, what useful meaning is conveyed in the first sentence that isn't conveyed in the second? Damburger 20:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist[1-100] suicide attacks[1-20] by Islamic extremists[1-22] on that date upon the United States of America.
Does anyone want to actually answer my question? Damburger 21:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
You don't have to justify the non-presence of words in wikipedia, if you did they would be filled with nonsense. You have to justify the presence of words. This should be a no-brainer. Damburger 22:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
The answer to the question, Damburger, is that you cannot remove "terrorist" from The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist suicide attacks... because they were terrorists! Arthur Rubin is absolutely right. This is not in dispute, except by you. It's just getting ridiculous. As I've stated several times, if the official accounts of 9/11 are wrong (if the US Government had a hand in it, or if Islamic extremists didn't do it) the people who performed the acts of 9/11 were terrorists. Why can't you get this through your head? Jeffrey Dahmer was a serial killer, so that's what his article says. Over and over you're arguing that "this was terrorism but not performed by terrorists." What the heck is that? Timneu22 22:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, to keep on track I'll make those modifications:
Now, can someone please tell me what extra meaning the first sentence carries, and how that additional meaning improves the article? Damburger 07:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Damburger, a suicide attack and a terrorist suicide attack are two very different things. If you just take the the sentence out of context for a second, the first only implies that the authors wanted to kill themselves as well as those that were killed with them. The second phrase implies that the authors wanted there to be political consequences to the attack, which is exactly what the hijackers wanted (unless the only reason why they flew into the towers was for the 40 virgins in heaven....) Wireless99 15:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
What has been verified is that they were members of alqaeda, and that al qaeda'a purpose in sending them on that suicide mission was unreservedly politico-ideological. They joined al qaeda with this knowledge, and if all they wanted was the 40 virgins they would have to be pretty stupid. Also, and this is in now way an endorsment of al qaeda: but say what you want about them they are not stupid or naive. They are a very secretive organisation and would not recruit simpletons who are only in it because they think they will get to have sex with 40 pretty girls at the end of it. They recruit those who have some degree of intelligence, and with an unwavering commitment to their ideology. This is not really speculation here. Wireless99 16:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
This source describes an effective helicopter airlift from the World Trade Center in 1993. [27] The source cited stated that helicopter rescue would be "impractical", but I don't interpret it to be worded strongly enough to indicate for sure that absolutely no one escaped by helicopter. Can someone think of a source that says categorically that absolutely no one made it out from the roof in a chopper? Wnt ( talk) 03:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)