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I fixed two statements of opinion in the opening paragraphs.
Opinion: These were attacks on The United States of America. The fact is that these were attacks on targets within the U.S. Invoking the entire nation-state as the target is a political opinion that has no basis in fact.
Opinion: The Commission concluded that the hijackers "used [the planes] to execute the most lethal acts ever carried out in the United States." This also has no basis in fact. How does the author qualify this? It is best to avoid qualifiers like "most" "greatest" etc . . . in Wikipedia articles unless quoting another source. If the author is quoting the commission report directly, it should be represented as such.
- r33tr33t
Talk:September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks/Footer template - moved out of main namespace.
Please keep this notice at the top of the page, right here, so people will see it more easily. A sitewide policy on the words "terrorist" and "terrorism" is under discussion at Wikipedia:Use of the word terrorism (policy development). There is a truce on the words for this article. For details, see Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks/"Terrorist" archive. Maurreen
Maurreen, It looks like the truce has been broken. The word terrorist is nowhere to be seen. Seriously, are there actually people who don't think the 9/11 attacks were terrorism?
They were terrorists, and nothing else. 20:33, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
What about the fact the administration allowed the attacks to continue as an excuse to attack the Middle East. Like the U.S. allowed Pearl Harbour attacks for an excuse to invade the eastern Asia’s and Japan.
-G
It is hard to measure "excuse", generally triggering a complicated soap-opera-like debate about implied motivations that is often influenced by one's personal political beliefs. Also, being an American, I can attest that many of us fealt real anger at the perpetrators and we were determined to find and punish the perpetrators and to prevent further similar or worse situations. The evidence that US planners "allowed" Perl Harbour to happen is still a unsettled issue, perhaps belonging under the "conspiracy theory" category.
http://lepszyswiat.home.pl/bimi/pentagon.swf
I don't know what the hell exacly happened there, but can anyone explain this video to me? Ek8 23:07, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with the idea that "if we don't trust our government, then this country begins to fall apart." We should be able to trust our government, but we shouldn't do so blindly or just for the sake of orderliness. That said, I do agree that the idea that the U.S. government was behind the 9/11 attacks is just plain nutty. People like conspiracies, though. -- Mr. Billion 01:47, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Thank you to all who have contributed to this extensive article; but can someone explain the logic behind the September 11, 2001 attacks#Responsibility section. I was reading through the article (start to finish) and the flow was drastically changed after the paragraph To date, no convictions have been made in association with the attacks. and then on start of Civil engineers and the official report concluded that the collapse of... -- can we have an explanation on why the collapse of the WTC is under the heading of RESPONSIBILITY???
Sorry if this question has been raised before, but it seems that the talk about the WTC collapse is totally inappropriate -- under the current heading of course -- and also, it be best to wrap up the section on financing (such as, Osama did or did not plan the attacks but financed-or not, the attacks). I'd do my part, but seems this article and issue(s) is far beyond this rookies scope. Hey, I may have just completely missed the point, either way, if I'm wrong or do have some logic in my concern, let me know. PEACE ~ RoboAction 07:59, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
" Full Transcript of Bin Ladin's Speech". Aljazeera.net. 1 November 2004 ( google cache here) says
and
Since bin Laden's earlier denials are featured prominently in the introduction, shouldn't this appear there as well? Tom Harrison (talk) 14:12, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Just clicked on this article and the first line reads...
The September 11, 2001 attacks were a series of hilarious attacks carried out against the United States on Tuesday, September 11, 2001.
Can someone please rectify this, I'm not sure how the article got to be this way but I wouldn't describe the attacks as hilarious.
<addendum> This article needs to be seriously edited... the titles of each section have all been changed to terms of racism.
To the about three thousand folks, sixteen palm trees (in the Winter Garden), countless other living things, etc., that perished on 9/11/2001, I dedicate this section in your memory. Amen. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:55, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I thought that this article was supposed to be locked against edits? Nick L. 21:32, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
The transcript of the fourth flight, flight 93, is listed in quotes boxes as the transcript of All your base are belong to us. It may be hacked, since I couldn't find a way to edit it out. Looking at the edit page, the real article is underneath.
There are two sides to every story and discerning, and writing, the truth takes great effort, but on reading this article my impression is that it falls disappointingly short of the judicious, evolved, balanced presentation of facts and theories that is the hallmark of a good article. Are people scared off by the controversy, by fear of the conspiracy theory label? There is no shortage of wild, easily debunked conspiracy theories out there, just as there is an abundance of disturbing, persistent questions about the official narrative. In brief, it didn't satisfy my search, sparked by reading a controversial article, and wondering "hmmm, what does good old Wikipedia have to say about this?".
Well sept 11 was a very disapionting time and i know i wasn't the only one who cryied.
I have removed Image:WTC7-B4-Colaps.gif because:
I have removed the newly added sentence saying that the fourth plane was shot down by the USAF and moved this claim to the 9/11 conspiracy page. There is not enough support, proof, or even murmer to add it to this main article. If it has not support at all it might be removed from the conspiracy page as well. - Tεx τ urε 14:56, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
"There has been much speculation on the 'performance' of the Twin Towers after the impacts, and the reasons for the collapse are under active debate by structural engineers, architects and the relevant U.S. government agencies." Probably it is too much of a speculation (hence I have not edited anything yet), but since I read lots of reliable (!) technical information about this event, the main reason for the collapse ought to be fairly clear actually: HEAT. If you expose a steel construction to several thousand degrees celsius of heat emitted by that engine, even robust steel can fluidize and get a chemical consistency like lava. -andy 80.129.100.99 00:44, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I asked CTists on a few forums to cite a single structural or civil engineer or achitect who doubted the "official" explanation. They were only able to come up with three names. Two were engineers who said a few days after the attacks, that from what they saw on it TV looked like controlled demolition (CD). One [Romero] said he had been misunderstood, that it "looked" like CD not that he thought it was CD. There other [Shi] not been heard from since even though he is still teaching at the same University in China. David Heller who has a "Masters" degree in architecture from an unaccredited school that does not teach structural mechanics, wrote an article in which his ignorance is obvious. For example he he repeats the "the fires were not hot enough to MELT steel fallacy"
Even the engineer who designed the building accepts the findings of the ASCE.
Len
In the History Channel program " Grounded on 9/11" (which detailed the Air Traffic Control and United Airlines flight dispatcher involvement in the day's events, from the initial hijackings through the grounding of all commercial aircraft in U.S. airspace) there was mention of United flight 23 originating in Newark, which returned to the terminal before takeoff when the pilot was notified of the other hijackings. Several "unruly" men of middle-eastern appearance rushed off the aircraft, abandoning their baggage, which was later found to contain " Al Qaeda materials". Use of falsified IDs prevented their being identified.
More details appear in an account of United dispatcher Ed Ballinger's actions that day:
...Kirk is adamant that Ballinger did save the passengers and crew of United Flight 23, which on Sept. 11 was about to depart from Newark, N.J., to Los Angeles. Kirk believes Flight 23 was going to be commandeered.
Thanks to Ballinger's quick call, the flight crew told passengers it had a mechanical problem and immediately returned to the gate.
Later, Ballinger was told six men initially wouldn't get off the plane. Later, when they did, they disappeared into the crowd, never to return. Later, authorities checked their luggage and found copies of the Qu'ran and al-Qaida instruction sheets.
See also this entry from the "complete 9/11 timeline".
Can anyone provide further details and references for this "fifth plane" that appears to have been an aborted hijack? It should probably go in the main article if it can be confirmed...
-- Jhardin@impsec 03:01, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't like the assertion in the Alternative Theories section that "[t]here is a strong linkage between radical anti-Bush...sentiment and belief in alternative theories..." Wording of this is perjorative and not at all NPOV. It seems to imply by proximity that staunch opponents of the Bush administration are likely to believe unsubstantiated theories. I'm therefore removing that sentence.
-- Sacxpert 09:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I would like to remind User:Truth in our time, User:Lamrock, User:Jimmywalter of the Wikipedia:Three revert rule. If you continue to restore your additions despite being reverted by multiple other users you can be blocked. Please use this talk page to make your case and gain consensus for your changes. - Tεx τ urε 18:09, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
The means employed by the hijackers, and their surprising efficiency, are, I think, of a paramount importance in order to understand what ensued.
Obviously, it is humiliating for a country like the United States, always ready to mock or invade smaller countries, to see that hundreds of their fellow countrymen and women were subdued by a handful of people armed with box cutters. This humiliation called for some decisive political action — and president George W. Bush did a dramatic U-turn on foreign policy (he had been elected on an isolationist platform, denouncing Bill Clinton's using the military to try to establish democracy etc. in distant countries; now, that's exactly what he pretends to be doing, big time). I don't think it is possible to understand recent US politics and foreign policies without the above elements.
Since this is a very important issue, it should be reflected in the introduction. I understand that some nationalistic "POV-pushers" are out there to remove such unsavory details, but we should not accept such censorship.
(I had to file a complaint for a bogus "3-revert blocking", by the way.) Truth in our time 09:13, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Neither of the two versions are complete, we should set up a temp page, craft a consensus version, and then move to the main page. Stirling Newberry 16:30, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Sections I don't like from Alternative theories of 911:
Because of the gaps, omissions and speculations in the public record, and because of political preferences, there are groups that actively promote the theories of the 911 attacks which vary significantly from the most widely believed narratives.
These theories generally rest on evidence which has been (scientifically?) debunked, such as erroneous theories of the collapse of the Twin Towers. However, gaps within the public record, the lack of explanation for particular details, contradictions which have later come to light, including revelations of Able Danger, continue to fuel speculation.
-- Pokipsy76 16:01, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
These theories have not been accepted by the investigative, scientific and or engineering communities because all the known evidence which was collected does not support the hypothesis presented by the theories. Like other scientific studies done on Bigfoot, UFO's and the Loch Ness Monster, there appears to be little or no credible evidence to support the psuedo-science presented.
When it's written:
These theories generally rest on evidence which has been contested by most experts in the scientific, engineering, and journalistic community.
is not clear what the writer is referring to (what kind of evidence???). I think someone who knows what it is referred to should attach some explanation.
-- Pokipsy76 18:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
There used to be a page that archived the television coverage of 9/11. You could just choose a channel and watch the news. Do you have any idea where it has gone? Lapinmies 20:22, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
This section kind of makes a lot of assumptions - where is the proof of all this? simon 22:55, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I see there is some protocall for editing this page, so I hope it's ok that I made this change to the article. The reference to 343 firefighters dying in the attack on the WTC is a commonly misquoted figure. It is actually 343 New York City firefighters because the figure does not include Kieth Roma, a member of New York City Fire Patrol who also died in responding to the attack. Fire Patrol, which predates the official fire department is an independant org sponsored by insurance companies. They have (I believe) three firehouses in NYC, including two in Manhattan. The following is the text that I have changed to make this correction, with additions marked here in brackets: "including 343 [New York City] firefighters, 23 New York City police officers, 37 Port Authority police officers, [and one member of New York City Fire Patrol], in the WTC;" EGregory 14:59, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to see that the change above was stricken from the article. Does anyone know why? To leave this firefighter off the list of fatalities seems unfair just because he was not a member of the FDNY. You could say "344 firefighters..." but then you run into the problem of everyone thinking it's an error, since 343 is the known number that sticks in everyone's minds. -- EGregory 15:02, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure who deleted the reference to Fire Patrol or why. I don't see where this change is made on the history page. But if you need documentation, here's some: http://www.silive.com/september11/lr/index.ssf?/september11/lr/roma.html If you need more, just google "Keith Roma." EGregory 17:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Several memorials are discussed in this artcile. Of course there are many more around the world, particularly in the communities surrounding Manhattan where many of the dead had lived. Perhaps there should be a page where these memorials can be listed. For example:
I also read about the following in the Staten Island Advance ("Going Up and Across," an article about the Bayonne Bridge, Wed., Oct 19, 2005) "...in Mayor Dennis Collins Park. The park houses a monument to Sirius, a four-year-old golden retriever who perished in the Sept. 11th attacks. There's even a dog run there, welcoming canines from New York and New Jersey."
{{totallydisputed}}because controlled demolition is no longer a claim, it is a widely accepted view that should be listed as a fact. If you can prove how a building can fall in 8.4 seconds without the use of explosives then YOU WILL get ONE MILLION US DOLLARS: http://reopen911.org/Contest.htm
In the first paragraph it refers to the hijackers as terrorists, well that could be said of 2 of the 4 sets of hijackers but the third plane at least hit a military target. I don't know if that's a direct quote or not, but it's inaccurate. The second thing is the "among the most signficant events..." line should be qualified with a reason to why such a relatively small loss of life should be such a significant event outside the US. So Ill make a couple of changes, please discuss...
The article has two sections covering the same general topic "Collapse of Towers" and "Collapse of World Trade Center." This should be consolidated into one section. I simply do not have the time to do it now. Can we get someone to take that on? RonCram 16:45, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Someone should look at this edit [1] by an anon. I don't know it it's true also check the figure on List of wars and disasters by death toll and in the info box on the page. I don't know which number is right. More people should be keeping an eye on such a high profile article. Broken S 21:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if this was mentioned anywhere... but we have a dedicated a September 11 wiki: sep11:In Memoriam. -- AllyUnion (talk) 09:36, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Curious as to if anyone knows the exact number of fatalities...this edit [2] indicates that the number mention includes the number of hijackers in the total, yet I always thought that the number listed traditionally as the total included everyone except the terrorists.-- MONGO 00:45, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Why is
User:Patsw bandying about inaccurate figures of the 9/11 death toll? It is way above the offical toll - on this wikipedia article the death toll reads "The official count records 2,986 deaths" You have quote the right-wing
Daily Telegraph with a figure of 4,537 people -
max rspct
17:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm a lazy ass, but damn the placement of images in this article is a disservice to the entire Wiki...can somebody please use gallery view, left-based thumbs, anything and everything to clean them up? I would love you forever. Fondly yours, Sherurcij 08:26, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
In Motive, the paragraph beginning "The 9/11 Commission Report determined that the animus towards..." has a quote from Ralph Bodenstein. Where is this quote from? And who is he, anyway? What qualifications does he have to be quoted in the article? Without a source for the quote and an explanation of who he is, it seems that the sentence should be removed. Objections?
Very POV and a big shame that this article has sat in wikipedia with such an inaccurate, loaded and POV term.
EVIDENCE OF REUTERS ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF DIFFICULTY IN USING WORD TERRORIST :
"Do not forget the infamous words of the Reuters News Service after 9/11, when they announced they were not going to use the word 'terrorist' to define the terrorists who attacked the World Trade Center because 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter,'" he says, quoting the news service. (from the American Family Association website [3]) ..taken from what I guess is a right-wing/pro-us gov website.. but used to illustrate that even Reuters had problems with the word terrorist. - max rspct 15:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Use of terrorists is so obviously bias.. I don't know how u get away with it. Where is consensus on truce? was it voted on as well?? - max rspct 16:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
User:Max rspct, clearly we all feel strongly about this, but please don't use the edit summary for personnal attacks. Alleging bias is not helpful. Please assume that we're all working in good faith. Again, let me remind you about the three-revert rule. Tom Harrison (talk) 16:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
9/11 is a case where there's strong consensus (not just WP:Consensus) that the acts were terrorism. There may be some news agencies that prefer to use other terms, but most do refer to the attacks as terrorism. Using the term "soldier" or "operative" implies that the hijackers had some sort of official backing. Carbonite | Talk 16:33, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
So you would call any operative/agent/soldier/guerilla who fights against an government or state as a terrorist? Al Qu'ada had the backing of Afganistan government at the time (or one could argue he and Taliban were trained by cia if u wanna go down that route). Use of 'terrorists' IS POV as the term has so obviously been viewed as such by academics and the worlds foremost internation press agency Reuters. On the question of reverts - I think it is YOU Tom Harrison who should lose his admin privilages for defending such biasness.
A CHUNK FROM WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE ON Media Bias: "..The best example of this bias is the use (or avoidance) of the word "terrorist". Most mainstream media will not use this word, opting instead for less accusatory synonyms. For example, a 2005 memo to the staff of the CBC states:
Rather than calling assailants "terrorists," we can refer to them as bombers, hijackers, gunmen (if we're sure no women were in the group), militants, extremists, attackers or some other appropriate noun.
In a widely criticized episode, initial online BBC reports of the 7 July 2005 London bombings identified the perpetrators as terrorists, in contradiction to the BBC's internal policy. But by the next day, Tom Gross and many others noted that the online articles had been edited, replacing "terrorists" by "bombers".
Even more subtle is the preference of the word "terrorist" in one context, not another. For example, searching the CBC web site, the string "Palestinian suicide" was used 14 times more frequently than the string "palestinian terrorist", but "Al Qaeda suicide" was 23 times less frequent than "Al Qaeda terrorist" (in contradiction to the memo cited above). Clearly, CBC editors want their readers to judge these acts differently, depending on the origin of the people targeted for killing. This particular word bias is not unique to the CBC, but can also be found in many western news source.
Another example of language bias would be using the phrase "freedom fighters" instead of "insurgents." The former phrase creates an image of a noble struggle, while the latter is more neutral."
Please note that I am not advocating the use of term 'freedom fighters' - max rspct 16:58, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Ps Although I am amiable, co-operative and have good intentions, I have finished with assuming you are operating in good faith .. because u are threatening me with a block over the removal of clear POV bias. - max rspct 17:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
See> Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography
Addendum: I have read the 'terrorist' archive - It seems all the voting (bar one very close vote) went against those who wanted terrorism in the article. You have obviously been pushed back to a 'truce' - but this was dependent on a "sitewide policy". But since this has not been developed or applied ..the truce must come to an end on this. I have requested comment and am close to reporting administrators for 'admin abuse' - max rspct 17:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
You're just giving me a deluge of your own POV. USA has been killing non-combatants all over the world. It wants to bomb Al-Jazeera because it doesn't agree with what those civilians are broadcasting. We aren't allowed to call them terrorist. The bond dealers were part of the economic stucture of US economy.. and your not going to argue that those in the Pentagon were not legitimate targets? By US governments own definitions of structural/economic targets AND it's own views on collateral damage..This "declaration of war" was most a legitimate action according to actions/terms already practiced by US forces outside the borders of USA. - max rspct 17:29, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
MONGO 17:33, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
User:Max rspct, I'm not an admin, and have no more privileges here than you. I reported you for violating the three-revert rule. It's no more reasonable to take that report as evidence of bad faith on my part than it would be to take violation of the rule as evidence of bad faith on yours. I don't doubt that you're working with the best of intentions to improve the article. You will be more likely to succeed if you refrain from personnal attacks. Besides making reasoned discussion more difficult, they make others question the substance of your argument; as does mere repeated assertion. If the use of the word terrorist were obviously non-neutral there would not be so many pages of discussion.
I do call the men terrorists who hijacked passanger airliners and flew them into the world trade center. That seems to me consistent with the Definition of terrorism, and with the key criteria identifying terrorists. Still, I don't think it's appropriate to use the term more than necessary for a facutal presentation.
I can't help thinking that much the same thing, on both sides, has been said by others. The result was inconclusive, hence the truce (which was before my time, so I speak subject to correction). I'm not sure what's gained by recapitulating it all here when we can read it in the archives. I would be surprised if the outcome were less inconclusive if we did it all again. Unless there is new information, I support abiding by the terms of the truce. Tom Harrison (talk) 17:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
It looks like the UN is constantly redefining the definition of terrorist. I prefer academic sources - max rspct 18:11, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Soldiers??? Excuse me "Max rspct", but I was a soldier. The perpetrators of 9/11 were no soldiers, as any veteran can tell you. Rearden Metal 23:32, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Responding to request for comment I will be very candid. My nearest relative worked on a high floor of the World Trade Center. He was one of the very last to escape. Most of the people from his office are no longer alive. I joined the United States Navy because of this and am now a war veteran. The idea that this could even be a subject for debate astounds me.
That day's events were terrorism in the truest sense. The World Trade Center, where the bulk of the lives were lost, was a set of civilian office buildings. This bears no resemblance to collateral damage of a military attack. No other location in New York City was targeted even though the city hall, courts, and police buildings were mere blocks away. The perpetrators hijacked civilian airliners, another classic terrorist act. This cannot be compared to wartime atrocities. The perpetrators were not soldiers and the United States was at peace.
I find it stunning that anyone would contest the term terrorist as applied to those nineteen perpetrators. If you wish to criticize United States foreign policy there are many productive ways to do so. As a member of that democracy I vote. I contact my elected representatives. I write to newspapers. I do not always agree with my government's choices. However, it takes a great act of personal restraint to read any further when someone begins by excusing an act of mass murder. The attempt to use this article as a platform for some political agenda is deeply misguided. It is in extraordinarily poor taste. Max rspct, as one human being to another, I ask you to stop. Durova 03:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
To call nineteen men who hijacked civilian airliners and flew them into civilian buildings "terrorists" is not POV, it is common sense. After all, if this act was not terrorism, than the word itself has no meaning, for this action surely fulfills any available definition of terrorism. They were not soldiers, for they were not members of any recognised state's army (and identifiable as such, the Geneva Conventions are clear on that), and they were not operatives either for the same reason. They were, in short, extra-state individuals targetting large numbers of civilians in order to cause terror and influence an audience, and so they are terrorists. I therefore agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments of Durova, Tom Harrison and MONGO on this issue. — Imp i 22:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Go vent spleen somewhere else. STOP SWEARING AT ME! Keep your emotion to yourself. As for the civilians, collateral damage in the cold, hard terms that the United States military have set out already. Are you going to label US Airforce as a terrorist organisation? no ... think about it. It is known that US government wanted to bomb Al Jazeera because it didn't conform to it's own view of whats actually happening in Iraq, Afganistan and the rest of the world. What about all the collateral damage in Iraq etc. And don't tell me those in charge aren't aware of the risks to civilians. Who is terrorizing who? Who should be labelled terrorist? They are insurgents if pro-american (yea don't forget that Taliban and Osama B have been connected to and funded by successive US governments). I am not trying to justify 9/11, I just want fairness in the reporting of world events. I know there are 4 american editors with very strong points of view on this - perhaps they should't be editing this? is there any chance of unbiasness?? Please answer my questions (anybody) regarding the truce and voting... or shall I start pointing things out myself? - max rspct 19:41, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
There's way too much sentiment in this discussion. Which is a logical result of the severity of what happened. But that should be kept out of the discussion. The question is whether the word 'terrorist' is pov. I've had similar discussions about words like 'regime'. In that case, there's a clear definition, namely the implementation of a form of government (irrespective of who is in government at one moment - the cabinet or administration as that is called). Still, one never hears of a 'democratic regime'. So the term may be neutral, but usage isn't. In the case of terrorism, there isn't even a proper definition, as illustrated by the fact that the UN can't agree on one. I've even heard that the reason for that is that every time they think they've got one, it turns out that it also applies to the US, and of course we can't have that. :) (Is there any truth in this, by the way?) Another issue that has come up in the Netherlands is that by most definitions the underground during WWII was a terrorist organisation. And of course we can't have that either. The problem is that the term 'terrorist' is never used in a positive way. So it is a pov term and should be avoided. Which brings me to what alternatives there are. 'Attacker' is an obvious one. Any other suggestions? DirkvdM 14:53, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
as a visitor from the RfC list, here's my 2 cents. i agree with dirk above, "terrorist" is too ill-defined & unevenly applied a term for an encyclopedia or reference publication. i would also use "attacker" or "hijacker." Appleby 21:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
As one who has done the bulk of work on the actual individual biographies of the 19 over the past year, I must agree that "terrorist" is a laden term, and I have always sided with "hijacker". That said, max's claims about operative/agent/soldier are not logical, nor is his claim that Al Qu'ada had the backing of Afganistan government at the time (or one could argue he and Taliban were trained by cia if u wanna go down that route). for two reasons. Firstly, none of the hijackers had anything to do with the ruling Afghanistan government, none of them even ever met with government agents. They most certainly were not agents of the government, nor operatives, nor soldiers. They acted 'alone' with the guidance of their own group. (Al Qaeda was not even a term they used, it comes from a brief message that referred to "the base" (Al Qaeda, in Arabic), and the US legal need for a "named criminal organization" to prosecute bin Laden in absentia. As per the second point, none of the 19 had anything to do with the CIA's involvement in the Soviet-Afghan war, and even bin Laden himself indirectly received funding, not training during that time. In short, I disagree with Mongo, but not nearly as much as I disagree with max. The term "hijacker" is the way to go. Sherurcij 10:07, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Hijacker connotates that one or more persons seize an airplane and essentially kidnap all aboard and then force the pilots to take them somewhere at which point the kidnapped persons are either released freely, held for ransom and then released, held for ranson and then murdered or simply murdered. I have not known of a situation in which any previous hijacker or group thereof, not only seized an airplane and kidnapped it's occupants, but then took over the actual flying of the airplane themselves and then used the planes as missles, deliberately intending to inflict massive casualties on targets of opportunity. The 19 "hijackers" are far more than mere hijackers...they are terrorists and there is nothing loaded about the useage of this term to designate their actions by any stretch of the imagination....no other word more closely or accurately describes the their actions...terrorism. This article is about the events of 9/11, not the bombing of Cambodia, not Hiroshima, not the fire bombing of Dresden. If folks wish to label those actions as terroristic in those articles, then be my guest, but to call the actions of the 19 hijackers anything other than terroristic and them as terrorists is completely POV.-- MONGO 11:46, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
but that's exactly the problem, isn't it? good luck trying to add "terrorism" to articles on u.s. actions in the past. since that's not gonna happen, that means the word ends up being applied unevenly, in a POV way. no doubt 9/11 was terrorism in some sense, but other actions that are terrorism in the SAME sense do not get called terrorism. the word is fine in many contexts, but i think best practice for encyclopedias is to avoid such effectively POV descriptions. Appleby 22:27, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
i don't mean just other wikipedia articles, i mean the word as is actually used. if "intention and action to kill civilians and strike at symbols of power and prestige" of another is "terrorism," then there's a whole lot of textbooks, history books, news articles, encyclopedias, etc. that need to be rewritten. until then, that's not what the word, in reality, is used to describe. Appleby 00:42, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Look, I'm not going oppose a changing of the word "terrorists" to "attackers" or something similar. This is despite still being in absolute disagreement with Max rspct's outrageous claims. I also still have absolutely no doubt that the 9/11 attackers were terrorists according to any real definition of the word. I believe it would be POV to not refer to these men as terrorists, and I further believe that each individual debate over the use of the word should be argued at each article's Talk page, as is meant to happen. Still, if there is a sitewide effort to avoid certain words, once again I won't oppose it. — Imp i 23:02, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Terrorism is privatized warfare. Governments traditionally have a monopoly on democide, so naturally becomes defensive when free enterprise encroaches on their domain. I do not advocate violence in any form. I become angry when I hear about "terrorist acts", just as I become angry when I hear about "collatoral damage". People are people, and they die the same, whether they are civilians or soldiers. Killing is inexcusable regardless of who is doing the killing. I would cast my vote here, in favor of using a more balanced term than "terrorist", but I recognize this isn't a democracy. At least we all have a voice here. Aaronwinborn 03:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
RfC: It's my opinion that the word terrorists should be used.
User:Impi gave some very good reasons above. What the US has done or not done is irrelevant to whether the 9/11 attacks were committed by terrorists; whatever the goals of the 9/11 attackers, their actions and methods were terroristic in nature. In my opinion, to say that those who have committed acts of terror are not terrorists because of the country they attacked is blatantly POV.
Additionally, above that list of reasons not to use the word terrorism is a list of reasons for the use the word terrorism. I don't know how to put the link in here, but all you have to do is scroll up from the link provided. KathL 18:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
My two cents:And one note, above I believe the memo on bombing Al-Jazeera was mentioned. But it does not appear that the U.S. actually was going to bomb them and no credible news source is taking it seriously. No to move on, terrorist is a perfectly fine term, when used to describe someone who perpetrated an act of terrorism. I quote oure own article ""Terrorist attacks" are usually characterized as "indiscriminate," "targeting of civilians," or executed "with disregard" for human life." Those people were terrorists. It was a target against U.S. citizens not the Government. That said, hijacker is just as neutral of a term. Soldier is definetly not, as they represent no army and never had. Falphin 03:50, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
The UK Daily Telegraph reported on 11 November 2001 [9]
Osama bin Laden has for the first time admitted that his al-Qa'eda group carried out the attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, the Telegraph can reveal.
In a previously undisclosed video which has been circulating for 14 days among his supporters, he confesses that "history should be a witness that we are terrorists. Yes, we kill their innocents".
In the footage, shot in the Afghan mountains at the end of October, a smiling bin Laden goes on to say that the World Trade Centre's twin towers were a "legitimate target" and the pilots who hijacked the planes were "blessed by Allah".
The killing of at least 4,537 people was justified, he claims, because they were "not civilians" but were working for the American system.
I hope this answers the question for everyone on the usage of terrorist in the article. patsw 00:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I have a photo of a "Demonic Creature" seen in the smoke and derbis when one of the planes hit the WTC. This was either a UPI or AP photo. A LOT of people reported spotting the bizarre formation. A lot of the print media carried this photo. Martial Law 10:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Find on Jeff Rense's Homepage and Archives material relating to 9-11 Conspiracies, 9-11 itself. Martial Law 23:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
A {{POV-section}} tag is added to an article when the disputed content of a section is biased toward only one side of the argument. Since most of our editors are western-influenced, international articles tend to have a western bent. In the case of this September 11, 2001 attacks article, the description of Al-Qaeda is based almost entirely on the propaganda used for a war against it. Twenty years from now, we will look back and realize that our characterization of Al-Qaeda is as silly as our 1960s characterization of Russia. We will marvel at how our blind hatred shaped our definitions and led us to do really stupid things. We will wonder why we had to repeat history again through the use of another evil ism.
Speaking of isms, one of the best ways of avoiding the appearance of McCarthyism in the eyes of our children and future generations is to write articles from a neutral point of view. As a very minimum, we need to avoid words that betray righteous indignation. For more on this, see Wikipedia words to avoid:Terrorism. -- Peter McConaughey 22:16, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I am happy with the use of "operatives". - max rspct 17:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I try to assume good faith, Patrick, but your insistence on grabbing the last three words of that sentence is making it hard for me to do so. The entire quote is, "If avenging the killing of our people is terrorism then history should be a witness that we are terrorists. Yes, we kill their innocents and this is legal religiously and logically."
Please remember we're trying to make Wikipedia a reliable resource of information. That means our articles cannot be argumentative. They cannot use pejorative terms to describe people. When the article calls someone a "terrorist," it makes the whole page look tabloid. Some very accurate and precisely cited information in that article is debased when you add pejorative and hotly-disputed descriptive terms like "terrorist." -- Peter McConaughey 23:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
It looks excessive to have two POV section flags within the same section. Durova 15:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
As a United States war veteran I don't try to edit this article. I will comment though that the terms of debate are far less skewed toward the West than some editors claim. The implicit assumption behind Osama bin Laden's statement about terrorism is that his group was retaliating in kind for United States actions. In fact the United States military goes to great lengths to respect civilians of all nations. During my two deployments our volunteers assisted charitable efforts in every country we visited. We saved 113 lives off the coast of Guatemala and Panama, barely sleeping for a week as we rescued them, and even our own nation's press ignored the accomplishment. The mistakes of a few people get endless coverage. I make no excuses for Abu Ghraib. Those soldiers belong in jail and I deplore them. Their actions stained the uniform I wore. There seems to be a concerted effort by some partisans to confuse the concept of terrorism with regular military action. Let me assure you, I carried a rifle many times and never harmed an innocent civilian. That would have been the antithesis of our mission. Durova 18:58, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Mongo, Really you strain credibility! Why isn't President Bush under any formally recognized indictment? What world do you live in? It seems as if you have a puritanical and childlike understanding of power. Simply: President Bush is not under any indictment for war-crimes etc... because he is the President of the richest and most militarily powerful nation in the World. Sheeesh.
I noticed that the Introduction was tagged as being not neutral. I read it several times and I could not find anyting that was not neutral. It simply states the facts. This group reported this and this group reported this ect. It has no bias to it. Should this be removed or does someone else have any comments? Or is that header for the entire article? Shark Fin 101 02:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)+
I’ve restored the earlier version of this. It is not POV to say “The economic health of Downtown Manhattan, which by itself is the third-largest business district in the United States (after Midtown Manhattan and the Chicago Loop), has been seriously imperiled by the attacks.” According to Bloomberg.com [24], “Lower Manhattan's economic future is riding on [redevelopment], New York Governor George Pataki and city business leaders have said.” If the future of something is riding on an event that hasn’t happened yet, it is reasonable to call that future “seriously imperiled.”
On the other hand, “created a unique challenge to” is POV, PR-speak nonsense. If a man is injured in a car accident and in critical condition, would any doctor say the accident "created a unique challenge to his health?" People would look at him like he was a moron. Nobody speaks in those kinds of tortured euphemisms except PR flacks and politicians. ~Sylvain 12/7/05
I am surprised not to see them all listed. Perhaps I missed it as the document is quite long. Specificly I am looking for the education level of the terrorists and where they where educated (in the USA??). -- 69.37.131.232 19:27, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Please do this and move on. patsw 02:24, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
In his New York Times bestseller, The President of Good and Evil, the eminent Jewish philosopher Peter Singer tries to make distinctions between the coercive actions of the United States government and the alleged terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. Singer notes the use of intentions as the defining element in President George W. Bush’s speech to the United Nations General Assembly in November 2001: “In this world there are good causes and bad causes, and we may disagree on where the line is drawn. Yet there is no such thing as a good terrorist. No national aspiration, no remembered wrong, can ever justify the deliberate murder of the innocent.”
The United States unquestionably kills innocent people with its bombs and guns during its invasions. As the enforcement arm of U.N. sanctions against Iraq, the U.N. admits that U.S. intervention directly resulted in the deaths of over 800,000 children under the age of five. Since “murder of the innocent” certainly applies to the United States government, Singer observes that the critical term in Bush’s speech must be “deliberate.” By making intention an issue, Bush draws a black-and-white distinction between American murder of the innocent and Al-Qaeda murder of the innocent: bad guys intend to hurt the innocent while good guys only hurt the innocent because of collateral damage. Bush is essentially arguing that conventional warfare—-destruction and murder for the purpose of reducing an enemy’s physical ability to fight—-is morally acceptable, while terrorism—-destruction and murder for the purpose of coercion—-is morally reprehensible.
Singer then quotes Osama bin Laden in an October 2001 interview with Al Jazeera television correspondent Tayseer Alouni. bin Laden said that the men who carried out the attack “intended to destroy the strongest military power in the world, to attack the Pentagon that houses more than 64,000 employees, a military center that houses the strength and the military intelligence.” About the World Trade Center towers, bin Laden said, “The towers are an economic power and not a children’s school. Those that were there are men that supported the biggest economic power in the world.” By bin Laden’s own mouth, the intention of the September 11, 2001 attack was a conventional warfare strike against the biggest military and economic threats to his countrymen. Since no coercion has been associated with the attack, it becomes hard to create a definition of terrorism that allows for the 2001 attacks against the United States mainland. Harder still would be the creation of a definition that also holds the United States government innocent for enforcing U.N. sanctions to coerce the Iraqi sovereign government by murdering over a million innocent Iraqi civilians. Singer says, “If we allow Bush to justify acts that he knew would kill innocents by saying that killing innocents was not his intention, then we should be aware that others, too, can use the same distinction.”
Let's put this thing to rest. I've added {{ Fact}} tags where a source needs to be cited. You can use the term "terrorist" to describe someone if you cite who said it, but citing yourself, as is implied without a source, just isn't good enough. I realize that many of us want to think of ourselves as the most definitive source of information, but that's just all in our heads. In a real encyclopedia, we have to cite someone more authoritative than ourselves. -- Peter McConaughey 06:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Peter comes close to getting it right with the word usage terrorist 'serves to show the bias of the user'. When you read 'bias of the user' to mean 'point of view', that is what the Wikipedia is about: describing points of view, identifying adherents and citing points of view -- in this one article on one thing and one thing alone: the September 11, 2001 attacks. The point of view of the United States is that these attacks on the United States were terrorist and I'm still waiting to learn who believes that these attacks on the United States were not terrorism. patsw 18:25, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
The article looks much better now with regards to use of terrorism - especially the start. Thumbs-up -- max rspct leave a message 16:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I just read an excerpt from a most definitive book on 9/11 that is coming out next month. The excerpt is in the new issue of Vanity Fair. It features pages of quotes from the most intimate people associated with al-Qaeda and 9/11. The article refers to the attackers as "Jihadists." I think that is an excellent term because it is informative without being POV. What do you think? -- Peter McConaughey 03:48, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe we should have a section in the External links dedicated to religous commentary of the 9/11 attacks. The question of how do these events fit in with God is a question that many have and I believe it would be appropriate for this article. Perhaps like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo#Religious_Commentary_on_Schiavo.2C_Disability_Issues -- PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 05:36, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I am not familiar with various religions response however I am familiar with this site from chabad which is from a Jewish perspective: Life Vs. Terror: a 9/11 Anthology http://www.chabad.org/article.asp?AID=58785 -- PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 06:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
The recent edit includes the statement "Bin Laden categorically denied involvement in a 2001 statement, although the denial is widely disbelieved in the West." I think we will need a cite for this if it is to be included. Arkon 05:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I have weeded out a few external links that are not so notable to be included:
-- Aude 12:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I did the following revert [30] primarily due to the fact that the 9/11 report doesn't refer to Al Qaeda as Sunni islamists and that it is important to note that Osamas denial of the leadership of the attacks (as provided with citation) then must also have the statement that his denial is essentially not considered factual by the western world.-- MONGO 15:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Please do this and move on. patsw 18:14, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
If someone has said they were freedom-fighters or valiant soldiers or something else other than terrorists, I think it would be useful to say who and quote them. Tom Harrison (talk) 23:27, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Using the X says Y style we have one big problem...that problem is magnitute. If we go by that philosophy, then we end up legitimately being able to insert every POV we can get from every available source, so long as we can cite it. There becomes no end to it...and we end up with jibberish. Is it really NPOV to cite sources for information that are of the absolute minority view and pass that off as mainstream? Of course not. It isn't even necessary to call the 9/11 terrorists anything other than that because virtually all major media sources, most governments of the world and most scholars adhere to this fact. It is nothing more than misleading than to apply the absolute minority view and try and pass that off as a NPOV.--
MONGO
16:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The narrative voice of an encyclopedia entry is a bridge between the reader and the cited information contained in the article. The cited information may disagree with the reader's beliefs, but the narrative voice must never draw conclusions asserting something that the reader could find offensive or controversial. If the article itself draws disputed conclusions, the entire resource becomes untrustworthy. To avoid Fox-syndrome, the narrative voice must always show complete deference to both the views of the reader and the external sources of information on the subject, allowing for both, but never requiring either.
The editors of Wikipedia create the narrative voice of our articles. Trust is an essential requirement of a solid resource. Our job is to make the information contained within an article believable so that it can be a tool for researchers. In order to do that, the narrative voice of the article must always present things in a neutral point of view, something that will agree with every reader. We are not here to convince the reader of anything, or to assume disputed "truths." Our only function is to organize and convey existing information in the most succinct manner possible. The information we cite must be accurate, but the narrative voice we use to reference that information must conform to a higher standard of also being "friendly" to the reader if it is to be trusted.
It's possible to convey any relevant information without the narrative voice offending the reader. This is done largely by adopting a Neutral Point of View (NPOV), but even the words we choose can convey certain cultural biases and "assumed truths" that will be controversial to members of our global readership.
An example would be Carbonite's adamance about including "official" before the "9/11 report." Why do we want to add undue weight to the words of the report? Why not allow the report to stand on its own? It doesn't call itself "official" on the title page. People outside of the United States don't consider it official. As a citizen of the United States, I can attest that some people inside the United States can see right through its weak content and assumptions as well. The United States government may have referred to it as "official," but does the US government speak for everyone here? Is the US government writing this article? Are there any "unofficial" "9/11 Commission Reports"? Is there any reason to call the 9/11 report "official" except to put a biased spin on it? -- Peter McConaughey 17:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It's referred to as the "official" report in the article itself. I went there expecting to find a section expounding the controversy surrounding this term and came up empty-handed. It should be trivial to add a:
- if indeed there is a widely reported objection to the description of that report as "official", but this isn't the place to pioneer that research.
Unless your objections have been widely reported by reputable sources, I'm at a loss to see what relevance they have to this discussion.
chocolateboy 17:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
---
Not if the dispute, as in this case, is based on a non-sequitur ("I, for one, don't consider it to be very official because it is full of leading phrases and pejorative terms") and an unsubstantiated claim that "official" (i.e. authorised) is a " weasel word".
We are not obliged to take things out because of irrelevant and unsubstantiated objections. The content of the report has no bearing on whether it was authorised or not; and I can find no evidence that "official" is considered to be a weasel word in this context. Would you also object to the description of Goleo VI or Cobi as "official" mascots?
The verifiable sources for the word "official" can be found in the 9/11 Commission Report article. That is the best place to wage this campaign if you wish to overthrow the status quo. Once that article lends credence to the idea that the 9/11 Commission Report was somehow not authorized by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, then that POV can be (and should be) represented here. Until then, it falls under the rubric of original research.
chocolateboy 18:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
In future, I suggest you respond in a way that's relevant to the upkeep of the article rather than airing your own political proclivities, which are irrelevant here.
I've replaced "official" with "final", which is part of the full title of the report [36] and nets more Google hits. [37]
chocolateboy 19:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. The word's been changed now, so this is moot. But:
chocolateboy 19:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The report is official because it was issued by the commission itself. It is an official document. It was issued by that office. Reporters often make reports about what so-and-so said. Those are not official reports. People frequently collect things people say into "unofficial" reports, often self-titled as such. Those reports contain lots of "official quotes". The point is that "official" relates to the issuing agency. I suggest that the adjective be treated something like an transtive verb, and nail that on a WP:whatever if you must. The report should be referred to as "____'s official 9/11 Commission Report". It is meaningless to refer to something as "official" unless the "office" is obvious. — Daelin@2006–01–06 21:24Z
Did I miss something in the previous section where there was a description, identification, and citation of the adherents of the point of view that the 19 hijackers were not terrorists? Please do this and move on. patsw 17:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Millions of people on this planet do not think of these men as terrorists. Furthermore, since there is no single, solid definition of the terms terrorist and terrorism, the label gets muddy. In some sense of the word, I think they are terrorists, in other senses of the world I think they are not. Kingturtle 18:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Please stop using this section to argue against the POV of the United States government that the 19 hijackers were not terrorists -- we've got a dozen sections that do that already. This section is your place to discuss the other points of view:
Mongo:-
And especially:
Your post summarizes to: "I bet I can find lots of sources who have opinion X so Wikipedia should have opinion X too."
FT2 20:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Pawsw, a brief summary why various editors feel we cannot state "XYZ are terrorists" or "XYZ are Al-Qaeda terrorists":
The time it is okay to label a person as terrorist, is when its in the words of a cited source and attributed to that source (as opposed to in Wikipedia's voice). But that's not the question here. FT2 21:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
If needed, add according to the United States government liberally throughout the article where this context is unclear. patsw 21:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It's a point of view presented in the article (i.e. attributed, verified, and cited). We're editing an encyclopedia. Peter, you don't have to care. patsw 23:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It looks like all the NPOV disputes are solved. You are all invited over to Sarah's house for pizza. -- Peter McConaughey 00:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
One minor tweak, the comment that the majority of independent media sources reached the same conclusion, edited slightly and shortened: 1/ Many governments did, as well as media, this wasn't stated, so i added "governments and". 2/ We don't know if it was the "majority" (how would one count, anyhow) so best just say "many" and not try to quantify it. 3/ Most media lack resources to truly "reach conclusions", they often report the news as reported by wire etc, from others, so "reached the same conclusion" may not be accurate, what we do know is they either reached, or at the least stated, the same opinion. So I've changed the wording to reflect that because that we do know. FT2 13:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
MONGO, you reverted something that is not disputed by anyone including the United States government. Are you now disputing the accuracy of every aspect of the following?
...and a network of secret CIA prisons in foreign countries to which detainees were secretly taken without being charged and without the opportunity of having their day in court. Often these prisoners were abused or tortured, and there are allegations that their religious books were desecrated. The U.S. government argued that such abuses were necessary to obtain information from the prisoners, and that in any case the U.S. president has the power to violate the "arcane" Geneva Conventions.
If you are disputing every aspect of this, I will go through all the trouble of citing every assertion, but otherwise, it looks to me like you reverted something without even trying to incorporate the information. Please assume good faith and abide by the WP:0RR. -- Peter McConaughey 20:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Two-thirds of Americans hold false views about 9/11, such as the view that Iraq was behind 9/11 (Univ of Maryland, PIPES survey), and the more television news Americans watch the more likely they are to hold such false views, according to the PIPES survey.
I wasn't able to quickly verify this. In fact, google of "univ of maryland" "pipes survey" turned up zero hits. [38]
Could we have a proper citation, tie the so-called "false view" to the actual survey question, and when this survery happened? patsw 21:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed "Although an EPA study showed dangerously high levels of toxic dust, the federal goverment withheld this information from the public and encouraged residents to return to lower Manhattan (NY Times, Fall 2004).", added by 216.57.0.210.
there has not been concrete proof that he [bin Laden] either is still alive or in hiding.
patsw 17:04, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
In response to the increasing number of people using the 9/11 articles as a platform for wild theories, I created a watchlist so we can keep track of these attempts. Please visit User:Rhobite/9/11 watchlist. You can use the "recent changes" link to view recent edits to the articles listed. Feel free to add any other relevant articles. Rhobite 23:14, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.muchosucko.com/flash/pentagonlies.html u guys should see this
Oh boy.. Where to start?
It seems current events have outdated this page.
By now it is pretty certain the Pentagon was NOT hit by an airplane.
Now, I know it hurts, to change this piece of information, but shouldnt wikipedia just resemble the facts?
I cant find any prove of a plane hitting it. Anywhere. I can find lots and lots of documents describing that the debries was from a different type of plane and that the pentagon was struck by either a missile or a bomb. Not an airplane....
I can even find a document in which Rumsfeld HIMSELF apparently says it is a missile.
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Missile-Not-Flight-77.html
http://membrane.com/news/Pentagon_911.html
http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero14/missile/temoins_en.htm
What I wrote was deleted for some reason. If you have a problem with how it is written, tell me. The TRUTH of the matter is that this is how many people across the world saw the attacks.
I cant find a news article based on what me and my friends felt the day after the attack, I live in Australia so we found out the next day. I CAN remember seeing people in Palestine celebrating
Does THIS offend you less?
While most news and media centres around the world condemned the attacks, many people felt indifferent while some saw the attacks in a positive light. People who werent directly effected and didnt see any reason to pretend to feel sorry for the victims and terrorists who died found comedy in the attacks and still continue to poke fun at them. Across many countries which held Anti American sympathies, people rejoiced the attacks, particularly in the third world and the Middle East. Even people in the U.S celebrated the attacks, one Ward Churchill commenting on the people who worked in the Twin Towers 'they were all little Eichmanns' Reactions were diversified to say the least.
I SIMPLY want to state WHAT the public reaction was. Seeing that you already overly express that it was sad for many people, I wished to express the opposite end of the spectrum. Being in this spectrum, I felt it even more necasery. But if this is just going to be a whine fest fuck it
I intend to add this to September 11, 2001 attacks at the end of the second paragraph:
Bin Laden categorically denied involvement in two 2001 statements [40], before admitting in a taped statement a direct link to the attacks, saying
While I was looking at these destroyed towers in Lebanon, it sparked in my mind that the tyrant should be punished with the same and that we should destroy towers in America, so that it tastes what we taste and would be deterred from killing our children and women.
For the full text of the video, see wikisource:Text of 2004 Osama bin Laden videotape. Osama bin Laden's current whereabouts are unknown.
Tom Harrison (talk) 00:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
A relatively small minority reject the view that Al-Qaeda was responsible for the attacks, often citing the CIA, Mossad, or pro-Zionist elements as the likely perpetrators. Others, while accepting Al-Qaeda's culpability, allege that members of the American government withheld foreknowledge of the attacks, silently sanctioning them.
Can the minority and the others be identified and cited?
If they cannot be, then this will be deleted as unverified. patsw 03:20, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Claims like "although the legitimacy of this video has been hotly disputed" just drive me nuts -- the only people disputing the veracity of the Bin Laden tape are people that actively and willfully disregard the overwhelming evidence of the Al Queda/Bin Laden responsibility for 911. They don't really believe these assertions, but advance them because they are blinded by their hatred of Israel and the US. There are people on this planet who also believe that the Earth is flat, but that doesn't mean that their POV is valid or even worth describing on Wikipedia -- it should be edited out completely. This should not be a place for the nutburgers that believe that the US or Israel planned the attacks on the WTC. Morton devonshire 17:48, 22 December 2005 (UTC)Morton_devonshire
Actually we do protect the POV of the flat earth society, same thing for moonies, scientologists, christians, and other similar wackjobs, anyone with enough time to spend on the internet-- 64.12.116.201 14:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
How about splitting off the "Arts and literature" section into a separate article? There are just three mentioned (a play, a novel, an upcoming film), while I'm sure there are others, such as 9/11 (film) that aren't mentioned. I don't really think that these are central to the article, and would be more suitable as a separate article, linked from here in the "See also" section. -- Aude 14:33, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
when you search for "september 11, 2001" it redirects you to "September 11, 2001 attacks", it should not do that, for other things happened on september 11 2001 besides the attacks.WikiJake 07:19, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Has there been a more destructive terrorist attack? Tom Harrison (talk) 16:04, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I particularly remember the indirect effect the attacks had on the Internet. Due to the sheer level of traffic, many sites took extraordinarily long times to respond, and often timed out. Should a mention be made of that, provided a source can be found?-- Drat ( Talk) 12:23, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
The figure reported in the article is inaccurate. While at first it was thought and also reported that approx. 200 people did jump to their deaths from the WTC, after analysis of the hundreds of hours of videotape by news sources and law enforcement, it was later determined that the number was lower, approx. 50. I will edit to reflect that, as the attacks and deaths were horrific enough and don't need any extra embellishments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.200.240.19 ( talk • contribs)
I attempted to put the following into the introduction near the top and somebody rejected it:
The current intro gets into specifics too early. The general geopolitical impact is more important than details of the hajacking etc. The details of the event should be moved lower. The introduction should be 2 paragraphs, the first describing the event and the second something like the above that talks about the general impact. Even if you disagree with my wording, it should be clear that the approach taken by the current introduction is poor level-of-detail organization.
06:02 - Foo gets into a car with friend Blah.
07:43 - Foo arrives at airport
08:02 - Blah puts a box cutter in his sock.
09:10 - Etc....
though a few people prefer "nine-one-one" (the same as the telephone number for emergency services in the U.S., 9-1-1). Some people dislike the use of "nine-one-one" due to the similarity to "9-1-1" (which implies a call for help) and the obvious practical point - that this would be far more confusing and potentially ambiguous, and prefer to state the date as "September 11th"; this is also the preferred form in academic writing. Nonetheless, "nine-eleven" is the most common form.
What is this all about? Where does it come from? I've never seen or heard the September 11, 2001 attacks referred to as "nine-one-one".
It's vague. (i.e. few and some and the obvious practical point)
Is there a cite for the "nine-one-one" reference? If not, this section should be removed as unverifiable. patsw 04:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I have certainly heard 9-1-1 used casually to refer to September 11. Mostly spoken, rather than written word. It is trivial and trite, but it is a coincidence that might be worth noting to help minimize confusion. -- Pinktulip 11:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
User:202.156.6.54 posted this to the article page, at the end of the section '9/11':
Tom Harrison Talk 04:41, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
This recently added section makes little sense to me. It discusses what didn't happen. Does anyone besides it author see relevance, significance, etc.?
I would also strike this as being irrelevant and insignificant:
A high volume of put option purchases [43], [44] and other unusual market activity [45] occurred in the days and weeks before 9/11, prompting international investigations into alleged insider trading.
No connection to 9/11: so what is it doing here? patsw 01:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Donald Rumsfeld admits that a missile hit the Pentagon and "similar" flying contrivances contributed to the WTC attacks as well. This admission can be found in the official Defense Link Government Website.
"They [find a lot] and any number of terrorist efforts have been dissuaded, deterred or stopped by good intelligence gathering and good preventive work. It is a truth that a terrorist can attack any time, any place, using any technique and it's physically impossible to defend at every time and every place against every conceivable technique. Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filed with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center. The only way to deal with this problem is by taking the battle to the terrorists, wherever they are, and dealing with them."
Read what other people had to say about Rumsfeld's admission:
Anon added the identification of the hijackers as Arab. Is that accurate and relevant? patsw 01:44, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Im not editing your comment just saying that i also believe there was a missel of some sort used in that attack, and if this movie offends anyone in any way please tell me so but this movie is factual evidence that there was no 757 that hit the pentagon... http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 169.244.70.148 ( talk • contribs) .
In the middle paragraph of the lead section, the National Commission is mentioned. That is the wrong approach. A better approach is to boldly make the assertions about Al-Quaida, etc. and then justify those assertions later. -- Pinktulip 12:10, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
How is that for a lead section? Just simple, direct assertions. No telling the reader that the hijackers were terrorists. The reader already knows that people who hyjack planes are terrorists. Just the big chucks. No commissions. No letting someone else make the assertions. And some additional historical context, notice the two wars that followed. -- Pinktulip 12:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that we add this link to the Links section: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=September_11%2C_2001 -- Pinktulip 13:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Do not put footnotes in the lead section! Do not document the assertions in the lead section! This story is too complicated for that. Just make the assertions and document and justify and enumerate them in the LATER sections. You see what happened with the work done by the foot-noters? They were so obsessed with footnoting Bin Laden's denial (which is the LEAST notable item in that second paragraph) and they FORGOT to tell the reader that Bin Laden is still at large. That is a lack of judgement. The foot-noters are failing to recognize what is Important in the story. -- Pinktulip 00:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
You see that? That foot-noters back again, foot-noting Bin Laden's denial. What is it with these people? Bin Laden's initial denial is NOT VERY IMPORTANT. -- Pinktulip 02:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I took out explicitly talking about Bin Laden's denial. He might have lied Monday, told the truth Tuesday and who-knows-wath on Wesnesday. It is not very important. The fact is that NOW, he has mostly admitted to his involvement and that NOW, the World pretty much accepts his admission to his involvement. And that is pretty much how it will remain, probably forever. -- Pinktulip 02:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
"...initially denied <footnote> but.." Three words and an out-of-place footnote. Still expensive for such a trivial piece of information. Bin Laden's denial amounts to little more than hot air. I suspect that the problem is that some of you guys are desperate to label Bin Laden a "liar". Or else you simply have your precioius supporting documentation, and therefore the item MUST go in as early as possible. Pathetic. You already got the label "terrorist" on him and almost all readers know that terrorists, by necessity, are often liars. It is a compromise in the quality of the lead section text, but do not feel like slugging it out with you guys over it at the moment. -- Pinktulip 10:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
>event in which a total of nineteen Arab hijackers simultaneously took control of four U.S. domestic commercial airliners
This is not a fact, just a theory, no matter how likely. There can never be mathematically exact proof of this, since all the planes were destroyed beyond recognition. The fact that those five young jews were detained by police while dancing in the streets when the WTC, which they have been filming for hours, suddenly got struck will always leave the little doubt that the 19 either were not the perpetrators, or they were not alone, possibly serving as mere puppets onboard. Anyhow, you cannot state it as a matter of fact the above quoted sentence. If you state this then you are racist, because you always apply presumption innocence when dealing with caucasian master races, but pig arabs and followers of dog prophpet Muhammad are assumed guilty by default. 195.70.32.136 14:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
This article is still too long. It has seven subpages, which is admirable, but the text in this article that accompanies a reference to each subpage varies from non-existant to bulky. I suggest that the bulky text accompanying subpage references has major potential for reduction in size w/o loss of overall quality. It is just a matter of moving the less-important references in such sections as "conspiracy theories", "war on terrorism" and "responsibility" can be moved down to their corresponding subpages and properly summarizing the most important, historic reults of these subpages (just like we have now mostly done with the lead section). How about it, guys? We can still make this a featured article, but you have to be willing sensational items that, historically, are merely line-items, get moved down to the subpages. -- Pinktulip 06:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Was this disaster not the first to be shown worldwide in realtime? I don't recall any other -- EyesAllMine 11:24, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I think we hammer the point home in the second paragraph that the hijackers were "of Arabic origin". Do we really have to mention this in the first paragraph that they were Arab (that whole ambiguity between ethnicity and nationality...)? We are having a mild edit war over the wording of the first paragraph because of this. -- Pinktulip 14:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Building seven was standing about block away from the towers. And was not hit by a plane.
Those two facts are of relevance, and we should be able to include these in the article. Honestly I dont see how including this lead to the assumption that the building was demolished. Whatever conclusions one may or may not draw from facts is irrelevant to writing a encyclopedia.
And as long as the, to me (it seems to be pure speculation and can never be verified for sure), rather farfetched discussion about what silverstein meant or not when he said pull it, gets so much attention (I mean this could really be suggestive of the building being demolished) is included in a lot of articles there is no consistancy in omitting simple facts about the location and situation of building seven. -- EyesAllMine 13:21, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
MONGO ... I don't know what got building seven down ... Others are having a hard time as well trying to find out (NIST, FEMA), I'm not having a special hidden agenda here, as you suggest. My interest is in stating the facts. Thats it. Omitting facts is not encyclopedic. About Silverstein, I dont know, and I dont care about what he meant or not. Really. Is not a factual thing. Some find it suggestive, I don't. Actually I'm amazed his remark is mentioned all over wikipedia -- EyesAllMine 14:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
I fixed two statements of opinion in the opening paragraphs.
Opinion: These were attacks on The United States of America. The fact is that these were attacks on targets within the U.S. Invoking the entire nation-state as the target is a political opinion that has no basis in fact.
Opinion: The Commission concluded that the hijackers "used [the planes] to execute the most lethal acts ever carried out in the United States." This also has no basis in fact. How does the author qualify this? It is best to avoid qualifiers like "most" "greatest" etc . . . in Wikipedia articles unless quoting another source. If the author is quoting the commission report directly, it should be represented as such.
- r33tr33t
Talk:September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks/Footer template - moved out of main namespace.
Please keep this notice at the top of the page, right here, so people will see it more easily. A sitewide policy on the words "terrorist" and "terrorism" is under discussion at Wikipedia:Use of the word terrorism (policy development). There is a truce on the words for this article. For details, see Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks/"Terrorist" archive. Maurreen
Maurreen, It looks like the truce has been broken. The word terrorist is nowhere to be seen. Seriously, are there actually people who don't think the 9/11 attacks were terrorism?
They were terrorists, and nothing else. 20:33, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
What about the fact the administration allowed the attacks to continue as an excuse to attack the Middle East. Like the U.S. allowed Pearl Harbour attacks for an excuse to invade the eastern Asia’s and Japan.
-G
It is hard to measure "excuse", generally triggering a complicated soap-opera-like debate about implied motivations that is often influenced by one's personal political beliefs. Also, being an American, I can attest that many of us fealt real anger at the perpetrators and we were determined to find and punish the perpetrators and to prevent further similar or worse situations. The evidence that US planners "allowed" Perl Harbour to happen is still a unsettled issue, perhaps belonging under the "conspiracy theory" category.
http://lepszyswiat.home.pl/bimi/pentagon.swf
I don't know what the hell exacly happened there, but can anyone explain this video to me? Ek8 23:07, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with the idea that "if we don't trust our government, then this country begins to fall apart." We should be able to trust our government, but we shouldn't do so blindly or just for the sake of orderliness. That said, I do agree that the idea that the U.S. government was behind the 9/11 attacks is just plain nutty. People like conspiracies, though. -- Mr. Billion 01:47, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Thank you to all who have contributed to this extensive article; but can someone explain the logic behind the September 11, 2001 attacks#Responsibility section. I was reading through the article (start to finish) and the flow was drastically changed after the paragraph To date, no convictions have been made in association with the attacks. and then on start of Civil engineers and the official report concluded that the collapse of... -- can we have an explanation on why the collapse of the WTC is under the heading of RESPONSIBILITY???
Sorry if this question has been raised before, but it seems that the talk about the WTC collapse is totally inappropriate -- under the current heading of course -- and also, it be best to wrap up the section on financing (such as, Osama did or did not plan the attacks but financed-or not, the attacks). I'd do my part, but seems this article and issue(s) is far beyond this rookies scope. Hey, I may have just completely missed the point, either way, if I'm wrong or do have some logic in my concern, let me know. PEACE ~ RoboAction 07:59, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
" Full Transcript of Bin Ladin's Speech". Aljazeera.net. 1 November 2004 ( google cache here) says
and
Since bin Laden's earlier denials are featured prominently in the introduction, shouldn't this appear there as well? Tom Harrison (talk) 14:12, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Just clicked on this article and the first line reads...
The September 11, 2001 attacks were a series of hilarious attacks carried out against the United States on Tuesday, September 11, 2001.
Can someone please rectify this, I'm not sure how the article got to be this way but I wouldn't describe the attacks as hilarious.
<addendum> This article needs to be seriously edited... the titles of each section have all been changed to terms of racism.
To the about three thousand folks, sixteen palm trees (in the Winter Garden), countless other living things, etc., that perished on 9/11/2001, I dedicate this section in your memory. Amen. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:55, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I thought that this article was supposed to be locked against edits? Nick L. 21:32, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
The transcript of the fourth flight, flight 93, is listed in quotes boxes as the transcript of All your base are belong to us. It may be hacked, since I couldn't find a way to edit it out. Looking at the edit page, the real article is underneath.
There are two sides to every story and discerning, and writing, the truth takes great effort, but on reading this article my impression is that it falls disappointingly short of the judicious, evolved, balanced presentation of facts and theories that is the hallmark of a good article. Are people scared off by the controversy, by fear of the conspiracy theory label? There is no shortage of wild, easily debunked conspiracy theories out there, just as there is an abundance of disturbing, persistent questions about the official narrative. In brief, it didn't satisfy my search, sparked by reading a controversial article, and wondering "hmmm, what does good old Wikipedia have to say about this?".
Well sept 11 was a very disapionting time and i know i wasn't the only one who cryied.
I have removed Image:WTC7-B4-Colaps.gif because:
I have removed the newly added sentence saying that the fourth plane was shot down by the USAF and moved this claim to the 9/11 conspiracy page. There is not enough support, proof, or even murmer to add it to this main article. If it has not support at all it might be removed from the conspiracy page as well. - Tεx τ urε 14:56, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
"There has been much speculation on the 'performance' of the Twin Towers after the impacts, and the reasons for the collapse are under active debate by structural engineers, architects and the relevant U.S. government agencies." Probably it is too much of a speculation (hence I have not edited anything yet), but since I read lots of reliable (!) technical information about this event, the main reason for the collapse ought to be fairly clear actually: HEAT. If you expose a steel construction to several thousand degrees celsius of heat emitted by that engine, even robust steel can fluidize and get a chemical consistency like lava. -andy 80.129.100.99 00:44, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I asked CTists on a few forums to cite a single structural or civil engineer or achitect who doubted the "official" explanation. They were only able to come up with three names. Two were engineers who said a few days after the attacks, that from what they saw on it TV looked like controlled demolition (CD). One [Romero] said he had been misunderstood, that it "looked" like CD not that he thought it was CD. There other [Shi] not been heard from since even though he is still teaching at the same University in China. David Heller who has a "Masters" degree in architecture from an unaccredited school that does not teach structural mechanics, wrote an article in which his ignorance is obvious. For example he he repeats the "the fires were not hot enough to MELT steel fallacy"
Even the engineer who designed the building accepts the findings of the ASCE.
Len
In the History Channel program " Grounded on 9/11" (which detailed the Air Traffic Control and United Airlines flight dispatcher involvement in the day's events, from the initial hijackings through the grounding of all commercial aircraft in U.S. airspace) there was mention of United flight 23 originating in Newark, which returned to the terminal before takeoff when the pilot was notified of the other hijackings. Several "unruly" men of middle-eastern appearance rushed off the aircraft, abandoning their baggage, which was later found to contain " Al Qaeda materials". Use of falsified IDs prevented their being identified.
More details appear in an account of United dispatcher Ed Ballinger's actions that day:
...Kirk is adamant that Ballinger did save the passengers and crew of United Flight 23, which on Sept. 11 was about to depart from Newark, N.J., to Los Angeles. Kirk believes Flight 23 was going to be commandeered.
Thanks to Ballinger's quick call, the flight crew told passengers it had a mechanical problem and immediately returned to the gate.
Later, Ballinger was told six men initially wouldn't get off the plane. Later, when they did, they disappeared into the crowd, never to return. Later, authorities checked their luggage and found copies of the Qu'ran and al-Qaida instruction sheets.
See also this entry from the "complete 9/11 timeline".
Can anyone provide further details and references for this "fifth plane" that appears to have been an aborted hijack? It should probably go in the main article if it can be confirmed...
-- Jhardin@impsec 03:01, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't like the assertion in the Alternative Theories section that "[t]here is a strong linkage between radical anti-Bush...sentiment and belief in alternative theories..." Wording of this is perjorative and not at all NPOV. It seems to imply by proximity that staunch opponents of the Bush administration are likely to believe unsubstantiated theories. I'm therefore removing that sentence.
-- Sacxpert 09:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I would like to remind User:Truth in our time, User:Lamrock, User:Jimmywalter of the Wikipedia:Three revert rule. If you continue to restore your additions despite being reverted by multiple other users you can be blocked. Please use this talk page to make your case and gain consensus for your changes. - Tεx τ urε 18:09, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
The means employed by the hijackers, and their surprising efficiency, are, I think, of a paramount importance in order to understand what ensued.
Obviously, it is humiliating for a country like the United States, always ready to mock or invade smaller countries, to see that hundreds of their fellow countrymen and women were subdued by a handful of people armed with box cutters. This humiliation called for some decisive political action — and president George W. Bush did a dramatic U-turn on foreign policy (he had been elected on an isolationist platform, denouncing Bill Clinton's using the military to try to establish democracy etc. in distant countries; now, that's exactly what he pretends to be doing, big time). I don't think it is possible to understand recent US politics and foreign policies without the above elements.
Since this is a very important issue, it should be reflected in the introduction. I understand that some nationalistic "POV-pushers" are out there to remove such unsavory details, but we should not accept such censorship.
(I had to file a complaint for a bogus "3-revert blocking", by the way.) Truth in our time 09:13, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Neither of the two versions are complete, we should set up a temp page, craft a consensus version, and then move to the main page. Stirling Newberry 16:30, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Sections I don't like from Alternative theories of 911:
Because of the gaps, omissions and speculations in the public record, and because of political preferences, there are groups that actively promote the theories of the 911 attacks which vary significantly from the most widely believed narratives.
These theories generally rest on evidence which has been (scientifically?) debunked, such as erroneous theories of the collapse of the Twin Towers. However, gaps within the public record, the lack of explanation for particular details, contradictions which have later come to light, including revelations of Able Danger, continue to fuel speculation.
-- Pokipsy76 16:01, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
These theories have not been accepted by the investigative, scientific and or engineering communities because all the known evidence which was collected does not support the hypothesis presented by the theories. Like other scientific studies done on Bigfoot, UFO's and the Loch Ness Monster, there appears to be little or no credible evidence to support the psuedo-science presented.
When it's written:
These theories generally rest on evidence which has been contested by most experts in the scientific, engineering, and journalistic community.
is not clear what the writer is referring to (what kind of evidence???). I think someone who knows what it is referred to should attach some explanation.
-- Pokipsy76 18:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
There used to be a page that archived the television coverage of 9/11. You could just choose a channel and watch the news. Do you have any idea where it has gone? Lapinmies 20:22, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
This section kind of makes a lot of assumptions - where is the proof of all this? simon 22:55, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I see there is some protocall for editing this page, so I hope it's ok that I made this change to the article. The reference to 343 firefighters dying in the attack on the WTC is a commonly misquoted figure. It is actually 343 New York City firefighters because the figure does not include Kieth Roma, a member of New York City Fire Patrol who also died in responding to the attack. Fire Patrol, which predates the official fire department is an independant org sponsored by insurance companies. They have (I believe) three firehouses in NYC, including two in Manhattan. The following is the text that I have changed to make this correction, with additions marked here in brackets: "including 343 [New York City] firefighters, 23 New York City police officers, 37 Port Authority police officers, [and one member of New York City Fire Patrol], in the WTC;" EGregory 14:59, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to see that the change above was stricken from the article. Does anyone know why? To leave this firefighter off the list of fatalities seems unfair just because he was not a member of the FDNY. You could say "344 firefighters..." but then you run into the problem of everyone thinking it's an error, since 343 is the known number that sticks in everyone's minds. -- EGregory 15:02, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure who deleted the reference to Fire Patrol or why. I don't see where this change is made on the history page. But if you need documentation, here's some: http://www.silive.com/september11/lr/index.ssf?/september11/lr/roma.html If you need more, just google "Keith Roma." EGregory 17:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Several memorials are discussed in this artcile. Of course there are many more around the world, particularly in the communities surrounding Manhattan where many of the dead had lived. Perhaps there should be a page where these memorials can be listed. For example:
I also read about the following in the Staten Island Advance ("Going Up and Across," an article about the Bayonne Bridge, Wed., Oct 19, 2005) "...in Mayor Dennis Collins Park. The park houses a monument to Sirius, a four-year-old golden retriever who perished in the Sept. 11th attacks. There's even a dog run there, welcoming canines from New York and New Jersey."
{{totallydisputed}}because controlled demolition is no longer a claim, it is a widely accepted view that should be listed as a fact. If you can prove how a building can fall in 8.4 seconds without the use of explosives then YOU WILL get ONE MILLION US DOLLARS: http://reopen911.org/Contest.htm
In the first paragraph it refers to the hijackers as terrorists, well that could be said of 2 of the 4 sets of hijackers but the third plane at least hit a military target. I don't know if that's a direct quote or not, but it's inaccurate. The second thing is the "among the most signficant events..." line should be qualified with a reason to why such a relatively small loss of life should be such a significant event outside the US. So Ill make a couple of changes, please discuss...
The article has two sections covering the same general topic "Collapse of Towers" and "Collapse of World Trade Center." This should be consolidated into one section. I simply do not have the time to do it now. Can we get someone to take that on? RonCram 16:45, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Someone should look at this edit [1] by an anon. I don't know it it's true also check the figure on List of wars and disasters by death toll and in the info box on the page. I don't know which number is right. More people should be keeping an eye on such a high profile article. Broken S 21:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if this was mentioned anywhere... but we have a dedicated a September 11 wiki: sep11:In Memoriam. -- AllyUnion (talk) 09:36, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Curious as to if anyone knows the exact number of fatalities...this edit [2] indicates that the number mention includes the number of hijackers in the total, yet I always thought that the number listed traditionally as the total included everyone except the terrorists.-- MONGO 00:45, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Why is
User:Patsw bandying about inaccurate figures of the 9/11 death toll? It is way above the offical toll - on this wikipedia article the death toll reads "The official count records 2,986 deaths" You have quote the right-wing
Daily Telegraph with a figure of 4,537 people -
max rspct
17:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm a lazy ass, but damn the placement of images in this article is a disservice to the entire Wiki...can somebody please use gallery view, left-based thumbs, anything and everything to clean them up? I would love you forever. Fondly yours, Sherurcij 08:26, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
In Motive, the paragraph beginning "The 9/11 Commission Report determined that the animus towards..." has a quote from Ralph Bodenstein. Where is this quote from? And who is he, anyway? What qualifications does he have to be quoted in the article? Without a source for the quote and an explanation of who he is, it seems that the sentence should be removed. Objections?
Very POV and a big shame that this article has sat in wikipedia with such an inaccurate, loaded and POV term.
EVIDENCE OF REUTERS ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF DIFFICULTY IN USING WORD TERRORIST :
"Do not forget the infamous words of the Reuters News Service after 9/11, when they announced they were not going to use the word 'terrorist' to define the terrorists who attacked the World Trade Center because 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter,'" he says, quoting the news service. (from the American Family Association website [3]) ..taken from what I guess is a right-wing/pro-us gov website.. but used to illustrate that even Reuters had problems with the word terrorist. - max rspct 15:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Use of terrorists is so obviously bias.. I don't know how u get away with it. Where is consensus on truce? was it voted on as well?? - max rspct 16:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
User:Max rspct, clearly we all feel strongly about this, but please don't use the edit summary for personnal attacks. Alleging bias is not helpful. Please assume that we're all working in good faith. Again, let me remind you about the three-revert rule. Tom Harrison (talk) 16:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
9/11 is a case where there's strong consensus (not just WP:Consensus) that the acts were terrorism. There may be some news agencies that prefer to use other terms, but most do refer to the attacks as terrorism. Using the term "soldier" or "operative" implies that the hijackers had some sort of official backing. Carbonite | Talk 16:33, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
So you would call any operative/agent/soldier/guerilla who fights against an government or state as a terrorist? Al Qu'ada had the backing of Afganistan government at the time (or one could argue he and Taliban were trained by cia if u wanna go down that route). Use of 'terrorists' IS POV as the term has so obviously been viewed as such by academics and the worlds foremost internation press agency Reuters. On the question of reverts - I think it is YOU Tom Harrison who should lose his admin privilages for defending such biasness.
A CHUNK FROM WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE ON Media Bias: "..The best example of this bias is the use (or avoidance) of the word "terrorist". Most mainstream media will not use this word, opting instead for less accusatory synonyms. For example, a 2005 memo to the staff of the CBC states:
Rather than calling assailants "terrorists," we can refer to them as bombers, hijackers, gunmen (if we're sure no women were in the group), militants, extremists, attackers or some other appropriate noun.
In a widely criticized episode, initial online BBC reports of the 7 July 2005 London bombings identified the perpetrators as terrorists, in contradiction to the BBC's internal policy. But by the next day, Tom Gross and many others noted that the online articles had been edited, replacing "terrorists" by "bombers".
Even more subtle is the preference of the word "terrorist" in one context, not another. For example, searching the CBC web site, the string "Palestinian suicide" was used 14 times more frequently than the string "palestinian terrorist", but "Al Qaeda suicide" was 23 times less frequent than "Al Qaeda terrorist" (in contradiction to the memo cited above). Clearly, CBC editors want their readers to judge these acts differently, depending on the origin of the people targeted for killing. This particular word bias is not unique to the CBC, but can also be found in many western news source.
Another example of language bias would be using the phrase "freedom fighters" instead of "insurgents." The former phrase creates an image of a noble struggle, while the latter is more neutral."
Please note that I am not advocating the use of term 'freedom fighters' - max rspct 16:58, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Ps Although I am amiable, co-operative and have good intentions, I have finished with assuming you are operating in good faith .. because u are threatening me with a block over the removal of clear POV bias. - max rspct 17:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
See> Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography
Addendum: I have read the 'terrorist' archive - It seems all the voting (bar one very close vote) went against those who wanted terrorism in the article. You have obviously been pushed back to a 'truce' - but this was dependent on a "sitewide policy". But since this has not been developed or applied ..the truce must come to an end on this. I have requested comment and am close to reporting administrators for 'admin abuse' - max rspct 17:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
You're just giving me a deluge of your own POV. USA has been killing non-combatants all over the world. It wants to bomb Al-Jazeera because it doesn't agree with what those civilians are broadcasting. We aren't allowed to call them terrorist. The bond dealers were part of the economic stucture of US economy.. and your not going to argue that those in the Pentagon were not legitimate targets? By US governments own definitions of structural/economic targets AND it's own views on collateral damage..This "declaration of war" was most a legitimate action according to actions/terms already practiced by US forces outside the borders of USA. - max rspct 17:29, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
MONGO 17:33, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
User:Max rspct, I'm not an admin, and have no more privileges here than you. I reported you for violating the three-revert rule. It's no more reasonable to take that report as evidence of bad faith on my part than it would be to take violation of the rule as evidence of bad faith on yours. I don't doubt that you're working with the best of intentions to improve the article. You will be more likely to succeed if you refrain from personnal attacks. Besides making reasoned discussion more difficult, they make others question the substance of your argument; as does mere repeated assertion. If the use of the word terrorist were obviously non-neutral there would not be so many pages of discussion.
I do call the men terrorists who hijacked passanger airliners and flew them into the world trade center. That seems to me consistent with the Definition of terrorism, and with the key criteria identifying terrorists. Still, I don't think it's appropriate to use the term more than necessary for a facutal presentation.
I can't help thinking that much the same thing, on both sides, has been said by others. The result was inconclusive, hence the truce (which was before my time, so I speak subject to correction). I'm not sure what's gained by recapitulating it all here when we can read it in the archives. I would be surprised if the outcome were less inconclusive if we did it all again. Unless there is new information, I support abiding by the terms of the truce. Tom Harrison (talk) 17:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
It looks like the UN is constantly redefining the definition of terrorist. I prefer academic sources - max rspct 18:11, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Soldiers??? Excuse me "Max rspct", but I was a soldier. The perpetrators of 9/11 were no soldiers, as any veteran can tell you. Rearden Metal 23:32, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Responding to request for comment I will be very candid. My nearest relative worked on a high floor of the World Trade Center. He was one of the very last to escape. Most of the people from his office are no longer alive. I joined the United States Navy because of this and am now a war veteran. The idea that this could even be a subject for debate astounds me.
That day's events were terrorism in the truest sense. The World Trade Center, where the bulk of the lives were lost, was a set of civilian office buildings. This bears no resemblance to collateral damage of a military attack. No other location in New York City was targeted even though the city hall, courts, and police buildings were mere blocks away. The perpetrators hijacked civilian airliners, another classic terrorist act. This cannot be compared to wartime atrocities. The perpetrators were not soldiers and the United States was at peace.
I find it stunning that anyone would contest the term terrorist as applied to those nineteen perpetrators. If you wish to criticize United States foreign policy there are many productive ways to do so. As a member of that democracy I vote. I contact my elected representatives. I write to newspapers. I do not always agree with my government's choices. However, it takes a great act of personal restraint to read any further when someone begins by excusing an act of mass murder. The attempt to use this article as a platform for some political agenda is deeply misguided. It is in extraordinarily poor taste. Max rspct, as one human being to another, I ask you to stop. Durova 03:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
To call nineteen men who hijacked civilian airliners and flew them into civilian buildings "terrorists" is not POV, it is common sense. After all, if this act was not terrorism, than the word itself has no meaning, for this action surely fulfills any available definition of terrorism. They were not soldiers, for they were not members of any recognised state's army (and identifiable as such, the Geneva Conventions are clear on that), and they were not operatives either for the same reason. They were, in short, extra-state individuals targetting large numbers of civilians in order to cause terror and influence an audience, and so they are terrorists. I therefore agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments of Durova, Tom Harrison and MONGO on this issue. — Imp i 22:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Go vent spleen somewhere else. STOP SWEARING AT ME! Keep your emotion to yourself. As for the civilians, collateral damage in the cold, hard terms that the United States military have set out already. Are you going to label US Airforce as a terrorist organisation? no ... think about it. It is known that US government wanted to bomb Al Jazeera because it didn't conform to it's own view of whats actually happening in Iraq, Afganistan and the rest of the world. What about all the collateral damage in Iraq etc. And don't tell me those in charge aren't aware of the risks to civilians. Who is terrorizing who? Who should be labelled terrorist? They are insurgents if pro-american (yea don't forget that Taliban and Osama B have been connected to and funded by successive US governments). I am not trying to justify 9/11, I just want fairness in the reporting of world events. I know there are 4 american editors with very strong points of view on this - perhaps they should't be editing this? is there any chance of unbiasness?? Please answer my questions (anybody) regarding the truce and voting... or shall I start pointing things out myself? - max rspct 19:41, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
There's way too much sentiment in this discussion. Which is a logical result of the severity of what happened. But that should be kept out of the discussion. The question is whether the word 'terrorist' is pov. I've had similar discussions about words like 'regime'. In that case, there's a clear definition, namely the implementation of a form of government (irrespective of who is in government at one moment - the cabinet or administration as that is called). Still, one never hears of a 'democratic regime'. So the term may be neutral, but usage isn't. In the case of terrorism, there isn't even a proper definition, as illustrated by the fact that the UN can't agree on one. I've even heard that the reason for that is that every time they think they've got one, it turns out that it also applies to the US, and of course we can't have that. :) (Is there any truth in this, by the way?) Another issue that has come up in the Netherlands is that by most definitions the underground during WWII was a terrorist organisation. And of course we can't have that either. The problem is that the term 'terrorist' is never used in a positive way. So it is a pov term and should be avoided. Which brings me to what alternatives there are. 'Attacker' is an obvious one. Any other suggestions? DirkvdM 14:53, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
as a visitor from the RfC list, here's my 2 cents. i agree with dirk above, "terrorist" is too ill-defined & unevenly applied a term for an encyclopedia or reference publication. i would also use "attacker" or "hijacker." Appleby 21:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
As one who has done the bulk of work on the actual individual biographies of the 19 over the past year, I must agree that "terrorist" is a laden term, and I have always sided with "hijacker". That said, max's claims about operative/agent/soldier are not logical, nor is his claim that Al Qu'ada had the backing of Afganistan government at the time (or one could argue he and Taliban were trained by cia if u wanna go down that route). for two reasons. Firstly, none of the hijackers had anything to do with the ruling Afghanistan government, none of them even ever met with government agents. They most certainly were not agents of the government, nor operatives, nor soldiers. They acted 'alone' with the guidance of their own group. (Al Qaeda was not even a term they used, it comes from a brief message that referred to "the base" (Al Qaeda, in Arabic), and the US legal need for a "named criminal organization" to prosecute bin Laden in absentia. As per the second point, none of the 19 had anything to do with the CIA's involvement in the Soviet-Afghan war, and even bin Laden himself indirectly received funding, not training during that time. In short, I disagree with Mongo, but not nearly as much as I disagree with max. The term "hijacker" is the way to go. Sherurcij 10:07, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Hijacker connotates that one or more persons seize an airplane and essentially kidnap all aboard and then force the pilots to take them somewhere at which point the kidnapped persons are either released freely, held for ransom and then released, held for ranson and then murdered or simply murdered. I have not known of a situation in which any previous hijacker or group thereof, not only seized an airplane and kidnapped it's occupants, but then took over the actual flying of the airplane themselves and then used the planes as missles, deliberately intending to inflict massive casualties on targets of opportunity. The 19 "hijackers" are far more than mere hijackers...they are terrorists and there is nothing loaded about the useage of this term to designate their actions by any stretch of the imagination....no other word more closely or accurately describes the their actions...terrorism. This article is about the events of 9/11, not the bombing of Cambodia, not Hiroshima, not the fire bombing of Dresden. If folks wish to label those actions as terroristic in those articles, then be my guest, but to call the actions of the 19 hijackers anything other than terroristic and them as terrorists is completely POV.-- MONGO 11:46, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
but that's exactly the problem, isn't it? good luck trying to add "terrorism" to articles on u.s. actions in the past. since that's not gonna happen, that means the word ends up being applied unevenly, in a POV way. no doubt 9/11 was terrorism in some sense, but other actions that are terrorism in the SAME sense do not get called terrorism. the word is fine in many contexts, but i think best practice for encyclopedias is to avoid such effectively POV descriptions. Appleby 22:27, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
i don't mean just other wikipedia articles, i mean the word as is actually used. if "intention and action to kill civilians and strike at symbols of power and prestige" of another is "terrorism," then there's a whole lot of textbooks, history books, news articles, encyclopedias, etc. that need to be rewritten. until then, that's not what the word, in reality, is used to describe. Appleby 00:42, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Look, I'm not going oppose a changing of the word "terrorists" to "attackers" or something similar. This is despite still being in absolute disagreement with Max rspct's outrageous claims. I also still have absolutely no doubt that the 9/11 attackers were terrorists according to any real definition of the word. I believe it would be POV to not refer to these men as terrorists, and I further believe that each individual debate over the use of the word should be argued at each article's Talk page, as is meant to happen. Still, if there is a sitewide effort to avoid certain words, once again I won't oppose it. — Imp i 23:02, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Terrorism is privatized warfare. Governments traditionally have a monopoly on democide, so naturally becomes defensive when free enterprise encroaches on their domain. I do not advocate violence in any form. I become angry when I hear about "terrorist acts", just as I become angry when I hear about "collatoral damage". People are people, and they die the same, whether they are civilians or soldiers. Killing is inexcusable regardless of who is doing the killing. I would cast my vote here, in favor of using a more balanced term than "terrorist", but I recognize this isn't a democracy. At least we all have a voice here. Aaronwinborn 03:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
RfC: It's my opinion that the word terrorists should be used.
User:Impi gave some very good reasons above. What the US has done or not done is irrelevant to whether the 9/11 attacks were committed by terrorists; whatever the goals of the 9/11 attackers, their actions and methods were terroristic in nature. In my opinion, to say that those who have committed acts of terror are not terrorists because of the country they attacked is blatantly POV.
Additionally, above that list of reasons not to use the word terrorism is a list of reasons for the use the word terrorism. I don't know how to put the link in here, but all you have to do is scroll up from the link provided. KathL 18:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
My two cents:And one note, above I believe the memo on bombing Al-Jazeera was mentioned. But it does not appear that the U.S. actually was going to bomb them and no credible news source is taking it seriously. No to move on, terrorist is a perfectly fine term, when used to describe someone who perpetrated an act of terrorism. I quote oure own article ""Terrorist attacks" are usually characterized as "indiscriminate," "targeting of civilians," or executed "with disregard" for human life." Those people were terrorists. It was a target against U.S. citizens not the Government. That said, hijacker is just as neutral of a term. Soldier is definetly not, as they represent no army and never had. Falphin 03:50, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
The UK Daily Telegraph reported on 11 November 2001 [9]
Osama bin Laden has for the first time admitted that his al-Qa'eda group carried out the attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, the Telegraph can reveal.
In a previously undisclosed video which has been circulating for 14 days among his supporters, he confesses that "history should be a witness that we are terrorists. Yes, we kill their innocents".
In the footage, shot in the Afghan mountains at the end of October, a smiling bin Laden goes on to say that the World Trade Centre's twin towers were a "legitimate target" and the pilots who hijacked the planes were "blessed by Allah".
The killing of at least 4,537 people was justified, he claims, because they were "not civilians" but were working for the American system.
I hope this answers the question for everyone on the usage of terrorist in the article. patsw 00:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I have a photo of a "Demonic Creature" seen in the smoke and derbis when one of the planes hit the WTC. This was either a UPI or AP photo. A LOT of people reported spotting the bizarre formation. A lot of the print media carried this photo. Martial Law 10:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Find on Jeff Rense's Homepage and Archives material relating to 9-11 Conspiracies, 9-11 itself. Martial Law 23:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
A {{POV-section}} tag is added to an article when the disputed content of a section is biased toward only one side of the argument. Since most of our editors are western-influenced, international articles tend to have a western bent. In the case of this September 11, 2001 attacks article, the description of Al-Qaeda is based almost entirely on the propaganda used for a war against it. Twenty years from now, we will look back and realize that our characterization of Al-Qaeda is as silly as our 1960s characterization of Russia. We will marvel at how our blind hatred shaped our definitions and led us to do really stupid things. We will wonder why we had to repeat history again through the use of another evil ism.
Speaking of isms, one of the best ways of avoiding the appearance of McCarthyism in the eyes of our children and future generations is to write articles from a neutral point of view. As a very minimum, we need to avoid words that betray righteous indignation. For more on this, see Wikipedia words to avoid:Terrorism. -- Peter McConaughey 22:16, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I am happy with the use of "operatives". - max rspct 17:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I try to assume good faith, Patrick, but your insistence on grabbing the last three words of that sentence is making it hard for me to do so. The entire quote is, "If avenging the killing of our people is terrorism then history should be a witness that we are terrorists. Yes, we kill their innocents and this is legal religiously and logically."
Please remember we're trying to make Wikipedia a reliable resource of information. That means our articles cannot be argumentative. They cannot use pejorative terms to describe people. When the article calls someone a "terrorist," it makes the whole page look tabloid. Some very accurate and precisely cited information in that article is debased when you add pejorative and hotly-disputed descriptive terms like "terrorist." -- Peter McConaughey 23:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
It looks excessive to have two POV section flags within the same section. Durova 15:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
As a United States war veteran I don't try to edit this article. I will comment though that the terms of debate are far less skewed toward the West than some editors claim. The implicit assumption behind Osama bin Laden's statement about terrorism is that his group was retaliating in kind for United States actions. In fact the United States military goes to great lengths to respect civilians of all nations. During my two deployments our volunteers assisted charitable efforts in every country we visited. We saved 113 lives off the coast of Guatemala and Panama, barely sleeping for a week as we rescued them, and even our own nation's press ignored the accomplishment. The mistakes of a few people get endless coverage. I make no excuses for Abu Ghraib. Those soldiers belong in jail and I deplore them. Their actions stained the uniform I wore. There seems to be a concerted effort by some partisans to confuse the concept of terrorism with regular military action. Let me assure you, I carried a rifle many times and never harmed an innocent civilian. That would have been the antithesis of our mission. Durova 18:58, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Mongo, Really you strain credibility! Why isn't President Bush under any formally recognized indictment? What world do you live in? It seems as if you have a puritanical and childlike understanding of power. Simply: President Bush is not under any indictment for war-crimes etc... because he is the President of the richest and most militarily powerful nation in the World. Sheeesh.
I noticed that the Introduction was tagged as being not neutral. I read it several times and I could not find anyting that was not neutral. It simply states the facts. This group reported this and this group reported this ect. It has no bias to it. Should this be removed or does someone else have any comments? Or is that header for the entire article? Shark Fin 101 02:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)+
I’ve restored the earlier version of this. It is not POV to say “The economic health of Downtown Manhattan, which by itself is the third-largest business district in the United States (after Midtown Manhattan and the Chicago Loop), has been seriously imperiled by the attacks.” According to Bloomberg.com [24], “Lower Manhattan's economic future is riding on [redevelopment], New York Governor George Pataki and city business leaders have said.” If the future of something is riding on an event that hasn’t happened yet, it is reasonable to call that future “seriously imperiled.”
On the other hand, “created a unique challenge to” is POV, PR-speak nonsense. If a man is injured in a car accident and in critical condition, would any doctor say the accident "created a unique challenge to his health?" People would look at him like he was a moron. Nobody speaks in those kinds of tortured euphemisms except PR flacks and politicians. ~Sylvain 12/7/05
I am surprised not to see them all listed. Perhaps I missed it as the document is quite long. Specificly I am looking for the education level of the terrorists and where they where educated (in the USA??). -- 69.37.131.232 19:27, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Please do this and move on. patsw 02:24, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
In his New York Times bestseller, The President of Good and Evil, the eminent Jewish philosopher Peter Singer tries to make distinctions between the coercive actions of the United States government and the alleged terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. Singer notes the use of intentions as the defining element in President George W. Bush’s speech to the United Nations General Assembly in November 2001: “In this world there are good causes and bad causes, and we may disagree on where the line is drawn. Yet there is no such thing as a good terrorist. No national aspiration, no remembered wrong, can ever justify the deliberate murder of the innocent.”
The United States unquestionably kills innocent people with its bombs and guns during its invasions. As the enforcement arm of U.N. sanctions against Iraq, the U.N. admits that U.S. intervention directly resulted in the deaths of over 800,000 children under the age of five. Since “murder of the innocent” certainly applies to the United States government, Singer observes that the critical term in Bush’s speech must be “deliberate.” By making intention an issue, Bush draws a black-and-white distinction between American murder of the innocent and Al-Qaeda murder of the innocent: bad guys intend to hurt the innocent while good guys only hurt the innocent because of collateral damage. Bush is essentially arguing that conventional warfare—-destruction and murder for the purpose of reducing an enemy’s physical ability to fight—-is morally acceptable, while terrorism—-destruction and murder for the purpose of coercion—-is morally reprehensible.
Singer then quotes Osama bin Laden in an October 2001 interview with Al Jazeera television correspondent Tayseer Alouni. bin Laden said that the men who carried out the attack “intended to destroy the strongest military power in the world, to attack the Pentagon that houses more than 64,000 employees, a military center that houses the strength and the military intelligence.” About the World Trade Center towers, bin Laden said, “The towers are an economic power and not a children’s school. Those that were there are men that supported the biggest economic power in the world.” By bin Laden’s own mouth, the intention of the September 11, 2001 attack was a conventional warfare strike against the biggest military and economic threats to his countrymen. Since no coercion has been associated with the attack, it becomes hard to create a definition of terrorism that allows for the 2001 attacks against the United States mainland. Harder still would be the creation of a definition that also holds the United States government innocent for enforcing U.N. sanctions to coerce the Iraqi sovereign government by murdering over a million innocent Iraqi civilians. Singer says, “If we allow Bush to justify acts that he knew would kill innocents by saying that killing innocents was not his intention, then we should be aware that others, too, can use the same distinction.”
Let's put this thing to rest. I've added {{ Fact}} tags where a source needs to be cited. You can use the term "terrorist" to describe someone if you cite who said it, but citing yourself, as is implied without a source, just isn't good enough. I realize that many of us want to think of ourselves as the most definitive source of information, but that's just all in our heads. In a real encyclopedia, we have to cite someone more authoritative than ourselves. -- Peter McConaughey 06:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Peter comes close to getting it right with the word usage terrorist 'serves to show the bias of the user'. When you read 'bias of the user' to mean 'point of view', that is what the Wikipedia is about: describing points of view, identifying adherents and citing points of view -- in this one article on one thing and one thing alone: the September 11, 2001 attacks. The point of view of the United States is that these attacks on the United States were terrorist and I'm still waiting to learn who believes that these attacks on the United States were not terrorism. patsw 18:25, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
The article looks much better now with regards to use of terrorism - especially the start. Thumbs-up -- max rspct leave a message 16:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I just read an excerpt from a most definitive book on 9/11 that is coming out next month. The excerpt is in the new issue of Vanity Fair. It features pages of quotes from the most intimate people associated with al-Qaeda and 9/11. The article refers to the attackers as "Jihadists." I think that is an excellent term because it is informative without being POV. What do you think? -- Peter McConaughey 03:48, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe we should have a section in the External links dedicated to religous commentary of the 9/11 attacks. The question of how do these events fit in with God is a question that many have and I believe it would be appropriate for this article. Perhaps like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo#Religious_Commentary_on_Schiavo.2C_Disability_Issues -- PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 05:36, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I am not familiar with various religions response however I am familiar with this site from chabad which is from a Jewish perspective: Life Vs. Terror: a 9/11 Anthology http://www.chabad.org/article.asp?AID=58785 -- PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 06:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
The recent edit includes the statement "Bin Laden categorically denied involvement in a 2001 statement, although the denial is widely disbelieved in the West." I think we will need a cite for this if it is to be included. Arkon 05:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I have weeded out a few external links that are not so notable to be included:
-- Aude 12:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I did the following revert [30] primarily due to the fact that the 9/11 report doesn't refer to Al Qaeda as Sunni islamists and that it is important to note that Osamas denial of the leadership of the attacks (as provided with citation) then must also have the statement that his denial is essentially not considered factual by the western world.-- MONGO 15:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Please do this and move on. patsw 18:14, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
If someone has said they were freedom-fighters or valiant soldiers or something else other than terrorists, I think it would be useful to say who and quote them. Tom Harrison (talk) 23:27, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Using the X says Y style we have one big problem...that problem is magnitute. If we go by that philosophy, then we end up legitimately being able to insert every POV we can get from every available source, so long as we can cite it. There becomes no end to it...and we end up with jibberish. Is it really NPOV to cite sources for information that are of the absolute minority view and pass that off as mainstream? Of course not. It isn't even necessary to call the 9/11 terrorists anything other than that because virtually all major media sources, most governments of the world and most scholars adhere to this fact. It is nothing more than misleading than to apply the absolute minority view and try and pass that off as a NPOV.--
MONGO
16:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The narrative voice of an encyclopedia entry is a bridge between the reader and the cited information contained in the article. The cited information may disagree with the reader's beliefs, but the narrative voice must never draw conclusions asserting something that the reader could find offensive or controversial. If the article itself draws disputed conclusions, the entire resource becomes untrustworthy. To avoid Fox-syndrome, the narrative voice must always show complete deference to both the views of the reader and the external sources of information on the subject, allowing for both, but never requiring either.
The editors of Wikipedia create the narrative voice of our articles. Trust is an essential requirement of a solid resource. Our job is to make the information contained within an article believable so that it can be a tool for researchers. In order to do that, the narrative voice of the article must always present things in a neutral point of view, something that will agree with every reader. We are not here to convince the reader of anything, or to assume disputed "truths." Our only function is to organize and convey existing information in the most succinct manner possible. The information we cite must be accurate, but the narrative voice we use to reference that information must conform to a higher standard of also being "friendly" to the reader if it is to be trusted.
It's possible to convey any relevant information without the narrative voice offending the reader. This is done largely by adopting a Neutral Point of View (NPOV), but even the words we choose can convey certain cultural biases and "assumed truths" that will be controversial to members of our global readership.
An example would be Carbonite's adamance about including "official" before the "9/11 report." Why do we want to add undue weight to the words of the report? Why not allow the report to stand on its own? It doesn't call itself "official" on the title page. People outside of the United States don't consider it official. As a citizen of the United States, I can attest that some people inside the United States can see right through its weak content and assumptions as well. The United States government may have referred to it as "official," but does the US government speak for everyone here? Is the US government writing this article? Are there any "unofficial" "9/11 Commission Reports"? Is there any reason to call the 9/11 report "official" except to put a biased spin on it? -- Peter McConaughey 17:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It's referred to as the "official" report in the article itself. I went there expecting to find a section expounding the controversy surrounding this term and came up empty-handed. It should be trivial to add a:
- if indeed there is a widely reported objection to the description of that report as "official", but this isn't the place to pioneer that research.
Unless your objections have been widely reported by reputable sources, I'm at a loss to see what relevance they have to this discussion.
chocolateboy 17:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
---
Not if the dispute, as in this case, is based on a non-sequitur ("I, for one, don't consider it to be very official because it is full of leading phrases and pejorative terms") and an unsubstantiated claim that "official" (i.e. authorised) is a " weasel word".
We are not obliged to take things out because of irrelevant and unsubstantiated objections. The content of the report has no bearing on whether it was authorised or not; and I can find no evidence that "official" is considered to be a weasel word in this context. Would you also object to the description of Goleo VI or Cobi as "official" mascots?
The verifiable sources for the word "official" can be found in the 9/11 Commission Report article. That is the best place to wage this campaign if you wish to overthrow the status quo. Once that article lends credence to the idea that the 9/11 Commission Report was somehow not authorized by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, then that POV can be (and should be) represented here. Until then, it falls under the rubric of original research.
chocolateboy 18:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
In future, I suggest you respond in a way that's relevant to the upkeep of the article rather than airing your own political proclivities, which are irrelevant here.
I've replaced "official" with "final", which is part of the full title of the report [36] and nets more Google hits. [37]
chocolateboy 19:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. The word's been changed now, so this is moot. But:
chocolateboy 19:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The report is official because it was issued by the commission itself. It is an official document. It was issued by that office. Reporters often make reports about what so-and-so said. Those are not official reports. People frequently collect things people say into "unofficial" reports, often self-titled as such. Those reports contain lots of "official quotes". The point is that "official" relates to the issuing agency. I suggest that the adjective be treated something like an transtive verb, and nail that on a WP:whatever if you must. The report should be referred to as "____'s official 9/11 Commission Report". It is meaningless to refer to something as "official" unless the "office" is obvious. — Daelin@2006–01–06 21:24Z
Did I miss something in the previous section where there was a description, identification, and citation of the adherents of the point of view that the 19 hijackers were not terrorists? Please do this and move on. patsw 17:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Millions of people on this planet do not think of these men as terrorists. Furthermore, since there is no single, solid definition of the terms terrorist and terrorism, the label gets muddy. In some sense of the word, I think they are terrorists, in other senses of the world I think they are not. Kingturtle 18:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Please stop using this section to argue against the POV of the United States government that the 19 hijackers were not terrorists -- we've got a dozen sections that do that already. This section is your place to discuss the other points of view:
Mongo:-
And especially:
Your post summarizes to: "I bet I can find lots of sources who have opinion X so Wikipedia should have opinion X too."
FT2 20:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Pawsw, a brief summary why various editors feel we cannot state "XYZ are terrorists" or "XYZ are Al-Qaeda terrorists":
The time it is okay to label a person as terrorist, is when its in the words of a cited source and attributed to that source (as opposed to in Wikipedia's voice). But that's not the question here. FT2 21:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
If needed, add according to the United States government liberally throughout the article where this context is unclear. patsw 21:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It's a point of view presented in the article (i.e. attributed, verified, and cited). We're editing an encyclopedia. Peter, you don't have to care. patsw 23:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It looks like all the NPOV disputes are solved. You are all invited over to Sarah's house for pizza. -- Peter McConaughey 00:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
One minor tweak, the comment that the majority of independent media sources reached the same conclusion, edited slightly and shortened: 1/ Many governments did, as well as media, this wasn't stated, so i added "governments and". 2/ We don't know if it was the "majority" (how would one count, anyhow) so best just say "many" and not try to quantify it. 3/ Most media lack resources to truly "reach conclusions", they often report the news as reported by wire etc, from others, so "reached the same conclusion" may not be accurate, what we do know is they either reached, or at the least stated, the same opinion. So I've changed the wording to reflect that because that we do know. FT2 13:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
MONGO, you reverted something that is not disputed by anyone including the United States government. Are you now disputing the accuracy of every aspect of the following?
...and a network of secret CIA prisons in foreign countries to which detainees were secretly taken without being charged and without the opportunity of having their day in court. Often these prisoners were abused or tortured, and there are allegations that their religious books were desecrated. The U.S. government argued that such abuses were necessary to obtain information from the prisoners, and that in any case the U.S. president has the power to violate the "arcane" Geneva Conventions.
If you are disputing every aspect of this, I will go through all the trouble of citing every assertion, but otherwise, it looks to me like you reverted something without even trying to incorporate the information. Please assume good faith and abide by the WP:0RR. -- Peter McConaughey 20:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Two-thirds of Americans hold false views about 9/11, such as the view that Iraq was behind 9/11 (Univ of Maryland, PIPES survey), and the more television news Americans watch the more likely they are to hold such false views, according to the PIPES survey.
I wasn't able to quickly verify this. In fact, google of "univ of maryland" "pipes survey" turned up zero hits. [38]
Could we have a proper citation, tie the so-called "false view" to the actual survey question, and when this survery happened? patsw 21:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed "Although an EPA study showed dangerously high levels of toxic dust, the federal goverment withheld this information from the public and encouraged residents to return to lower Manhattan (NY Times, Fall 2004).", added by 216.57.0.210.
there has not been concrete proof that he [bin Laden] either is still alive or in hiding.
patsw 17:04, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
In response to the increasing number of people using the 9/11 articles as a platform for wild theories, I created a watchlist so we can keep track of these attempts. Please visit User:Rhobite/9/11 watchlist. You can use the "recent changes" link to view recent edits to the articles listed. Feel free to add any other relevant articles. Rhobite 23:14, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.muchosucko.com/flash/pentagonlies.html u guys should see this
Oh boy.. Where to start?
It seems current events have outdated this page.
By now it is pretty certain the Pentagon was NOT hit by an airplane.
Now, I know it hurts, to change this piece of information, but shouldnt wikipedia just resemble the facts?
I cant find any prove of a plane hitting it. Anywhere. I can find lots and lots of documents describing that the debries was from a different type of plane and that the pentagon was struck by either a missile or a bomb. Not an airplane....
I can even find a document in which Rumsfeld HIMSELF apparently says it is a missile.
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Missile-Not-Flight-77.html
http://membrane.com/news/Pentagon_911.html
http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero14/missile/temoins_en.htm
What I wrote was deleted for some reason. If you have a problem with how it is written, tell me. The TRUTH of the matter is that this is how many people across the world saw the attacks.
I cant find a news article based on what me and my friends felt the day after the attack, I live in Australia so we found out the next day. I CAN remember seeing people in Palestine celebrating
Does THIS offend you less?
While most news and media centres around the world condemned the attacks, many people felt indifferent while some saw the attacks in a positive light. People who werent directly effected and didnt see any reason to pretend to feel sorry for the victims and terrorists who died found comedy in the attacks and still continue to poke fun at them. Across many countries which held Anti American sympathies, people rejoiced the attacks, particularly in the third world and the Middle East. Even people in the U.S celebrated the attacks, one Ward Churchill commenting on the people who worked in the Twin Towers 'they were all little Eichmanns' Reactions were diversified to say the least.
I SIMPLY want to state WHAT the public reaction was. Seeing that you already overly express that it was sad for many people, I wished to express the opposite end of the spectrum. Being in this spectrum, I felt it even more necasery. But if this is just going to be a whine fest fuck it
I intend to add this to September 11, 2001 attacks at the end of the second paragraph:
Bin Laden categorically denied involvement in two 2001 statements [40], before admitting in a taped statement a direct link to the attacks, saying
While I was looking at these destroyed towers in Lebanon, it sparked in my mind that the tyrant should be punished with the same and that we should destroy towers in America, so that it tastes what we taste and would be deterred from killing our children and women.
For the full text of the video, see wikisource:Text of 2004 Osama bin Laden videotape. Osama bin Laden's current whereabouts are unknown.
Tom Harrison (talk) 00:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
A relatively small minority reject the view that Al-Qaeda was responsible for the attacks, often citing the CIA, Mossad, or pro-Zionist elements as the likely perpetrators. Others, while accepting Al-Qaeda's culpability, allege that members of the American government withheld foreknowledge of the attacks, silently sanctioning them.
Can the minority and the others be identified and cited?
If they cannot be, then this will be deleted as unverified. patsw 03:20, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Claims like "although the legitimacy of this video has been hotly disputed" just drive me nuts -- the only people disputing the veracity of the Bin Laden tape are people that actively and willfully disregard the overwhelming evidence of the Al Queda/Bin Laden responsibility for 911. They don't really believe these assertions, but advance them because they are blinded by their hatred of Israel and the US. There are people on this planet who also believe that the Earth is flat, but that doesn't mean that their POV is valid or even worth describing on Wikipedia -- it should be edited out completely. This should not be a place for the nutburgers that believe that the US or Israel planned the attacks on the WTC. Morton devonshire 17:48, 22 December 2005 (UTC)Morton_devonshire
Actually we do protect the POV of the flat earth society, same thing for moonies, scientologists, christians, and other similar wackjobs, anyone with enough time to spend on the internet-- 64.12.116.201 14:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
How about splitting off the "Arts and literature" section into a separate article? There are just three mentioned (a play, a novel, an upcoming film), while I'm sure there are others, such as 9/11 (film) that aren't mentioned. I don't really think that these are central to the article, and would be more suitable as a separate article, linked from here in the "See also" section. -- Aude 14:33, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
when you search for "september 11, 2001" it redirects you to "September 11, 2001 attacks", it should not do that, for other things happened on september 11 2001 besides the attacks.WikiJake 07:19, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Has there been a more destructive terrorist attack? Tom Harrison (talk) 16:04, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I particularly remember the indirect effect the attacks had on the Internet. Due to the sheer level of traffic, many sites took extraordinarily long times to respond, and often timed out. Should a mention be made of that, provided a source can be found?-- Drat ( Talk) 12:23, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
The figure reported in the article is inaccurate. While at first it was thought and also reported that approx. 200 people did jump to their deaths from the WTC, after analysis of the hundreds of hours of videotape by news sources and law enforcement, it was later determined that the number was lower, approx. 50. I will edit to reflect that, as the attacks and deaths were horrific enough and don't need any extra embellishments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.200.240.19 ( talk • contribs)
I attempted to put the following into the introduction near the top and somebody rejected it:
The current intro gets into specifics too early. The general geopolitical impact is more important than details of the hajacking etc. The details of the event should be moved lower. The introduction should be 2 paragraphs, the first describing the event and the second something like the above that talks about the general impact. Even if you disagree with my wording, it should be clear that the approach taken by the current introduction is poor level-of-detail organization.
06:02 - Foo gets into a car with friend Blah.
07:43 - Foo arrives at airport
08:02 - Blah puts a box cutter in his sock.
09:10 - Etc....
though a few people prefer "nine-one-one" (the same as the telephone number for emergency services in the U.S., 9-1-1). Some people dislike the use of "nine-one-one" due to the similarity to "9-1-1" (which implies a call for help) and the obvious practical point - that this would be far more confusing and potentially ambiguous, and prefer to state the date as "September 11th"; this is also the preferred form in academic writing. Nonetheless, "nine-eleven" is the most common form.
What is this all about? Where does it come from? I've never seen or heard the September 11, 2001 attacks referred to as "nine-one-one".
It's vague. (i.e. few and some and the obvious practical point)
Is there a cite for the "nine-one-one" reference? If not, this section should be removed as unverifiable. patsw 04:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I have certainly heard 9-1-1 used casually to refer to September 11. Mostly spoken, rather than written word. It is trivial and trite, but it is a coincidence that might be worth noting to help minimize confusion. -- Pinktulip 11:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
User:202.156.6.54 posted this to the article page, at the end of the section '9/11':
Tom Harrison Talk 04:41, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
This recently added section makes little sense to me. It discusses what didn't happen. Does anyone besides it author see relevance, significance, etc.?
I would also strike this as being irrelevant and insignificant:
A high volume of put option purchases [43], [44] and other unusual market activity [45] occurred in the days and weeks before 9/11, prompting international investigations into alleged insider trading.
No connection to 9/11: so what is it doing here? patsw 01:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Donald Rumsfeld admits that a missile hit the Pentagon and "similar" flying contrivances contributed to the WTC attacks as well. This admission can be found in the official Defense Link Government Website.
"They [find a lot] and any number of terrorist efforts have been dissuaded, deterred or stopped by good intelligence gathering and good preventive work. It is a truth that a terrorist can attack any time, any place, using any technique and it's physically impossible to defend at every time and every place against every conceivable technique. Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filed with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center. The only way to deal with this problem is by taking the battle to the terrorists, wherever they are, and dealing with them."
Read what other people had to say about Rumsfeld's admission:
Anon added the identification of the hijackers as Arab. Is that accurate and relevant? patsw 01:44, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Im not editing your comment just saying that i also believe there was a missel of some sort used in that attack, and if this movie offends anyone in any way please tell me so but this movie is factual evidence that there was no 757 that hit the pentagon... http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 169.244.70.148 ( talk • contribs) .
In the middle paragraph of the lead section, the National Commission is mentioned. That is the wrong approach. A better approach is to boldly make the assertions about Al-Quaida, etc. and then justify those assertions later. -- Pinktulip 12:10, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
How is that for a lead section? Just simple, direct assertions. No telling the reader that the hijackers were terrorists. The reader already knows that people who hyjack planes are terrorists. Just the big chucks. No commissions. No letting someone else make the assertions. And some additional historical context, notice the two wars that followed. -- Pinktulip 12:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that we add this link to the Links section: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=September_11%2C_2001 -- Pinktulip 13:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Do not put footnotes in the lead section! Do not document the assertions in the lead section! This story is too complicated for that. Just make the assertions and document and justify and enumerate them in the LATER sections. You see what happened with the work done by the foot-noters? They were so obsessed with footnoting Bin Laden's denial (which is the LEAST notable item in that second paragraph) and they FORGOT to tell the reader that Bin Laden is still at large. That is a lack of judgement. The foot-noters are failing to recognize what is Important in the story. -- Pinktulip 00:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
You see that? That foot-noters back again, foot-noting Bin Laden's denial. What is it with these people? Bin Laden's initial denial is NOT VERY IMPORTANT. -- Pinktulip 02:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I took out explicitly talking about Bin Laden's denial. He might have lied Monday, told the truth Tuesday and who-knows-wath on Wesnesday. It is not very important. The fact is that NOW, he has mostly admitted to his involvement and that NOW, the World pretty much accepts his admission to his involvement. And that is pretty much how it will remain, probably forever. -- Pinktulip 02:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
"...initially denied <footnote> but.." Three words and an out-of-place footnote. Still expensive for such a trivial piece of information. Bin Laden's denial amounts to little more than hot air. I suspect that the problem is that some of you guys are desperate to label Bin Laden a "liar". Or else you simply have your precioius supporting documentation, and therefore the item MUST go in as early as possible. Pathetic. You already got the label "terrorist" on him and almost all readers know that terrorists, by necessity, are often liars. It is a compromise in the quality of the lead section text, but do not feel like slugging it out with you guys over it at the moment. -- Pinktulip 10:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
>event in which a total of nineteen Arab hijackers simultaneously took control of four U.S. domestic commercial airliners
This is not a fact, just a theory, no matter how likely. There can never be mathematically exact proof of this, since all the planes were destroyed beyond recognition. The fact that those five young jews were detained by police while dancing in the streets when the WTC, which they have been filming for hours, suddenly got struck will always leave the little doubt that the 19 either were not the perpetrators, or they were not alone, possibly serving as mere puppets onboard. Anyhow, you cannot state it as a matter of fact the above quoted sentence. If you state this then you are racist, because you always apply presumption innocence when dealing with caucasian master races, but pig arabs and followers of dog prophpet Muhammad are assumed guilty by default. 195.70.32.136 14:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
This article is still too long. It has seven subpages, which is admirable, but the text in this article that accompanies a reference to each subpage varies from non-existant to bulky. I suggest that the bulky text accompanying subpage references has major potential for reduction in size w/o loss of overall quality. It is just a matter of moving the less-important references in such sections as "conspiracy theories", "war on terrorism" and "responsibility" can be moved down to their corresponding subpages and properly summarizing the most important, historic reults of these subpages (just like we have now mostly done with the lead section). How about it, guys? We can still make this a featured article, but you have to be willing sensational items that, historically, are merely line-items, get moved down to the subpages. -- Pinktulip 06:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Was this disaster not the first to be shown worldwide in realtime? I don't recall any other -- EyesAllMine 11:24, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I think we hammer the point home in the second paragraph that the hijackers were "of Arabic origin". Do we really have to mention this in the first paragraph that they were Arab (that whole ambiguity between ethnicity and nationality...)? We are having a mild edit war over the wording of the first paragraph because of this. -- Pinktulip 14:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Building seven was standing about block away from the towers. And was not hit by a plane.
Those two facts are of relevance, and we should be able to include these in the article. Honestly I dont see how including this lead to the assumption that the building was demolished. Whatever conclusions one may or may not draw from facts is irrelevant to writing a encyclopedia.
And as long as the, to me (it seems to be pure speculation and can never be verified for sure), rather farfetched discussion about what silverstein meant or not when he said pull it, gets so much attention (I mean this could really be suggestive of the building being demolished) is included in a lot of articles there is no consistancy in omitting simple facts about the location and situation of building seven. -- EyesAllMine 13:21, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
MONGO ... I don't know what got building seven down ... Others are having a hard time as well trying to find out (NIST, FEMA), I'm not having a special hidden agenda here, as you suggest. My interest is in stating the facts. Thats it. Omitting facts is not encyclopedic. About Silverstein, I dont know, and I dont care about what he meant or not. Really. Is not a factual thing. Some find it suggestive, I don't. Actually I'm amazed his remark is mentioned all over wikipedia -- EyesAllMine 14:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)