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For older discussions, see: Talk:Japanese martial arts titles.
How is Sensei prononced?-- Light current 01:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Really?? You don't lean heavy on the n sound but it definately is there. Peter Rehse 01:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The 'n' sound is certainly there, but it's light as you say. You dont push your tounge to the top of your mouth at the end of the first sylable. This is why in quick speach and in some areas of japan you may not hear the 'n'... but it should be spoken an is the reading of the first kanji. Ixtli 03:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
This "n" is what linguists call the Japanese "mora nasal". The position of its pronunciation in your mouth will normally match the position of a following consonant (c.f. "hombu", where it becomes an "m"). In cases where it is not forced into a certain position, it will fall far back in the throat (as in "sensei"). Thus, it is not like the English "n", which is pronounced with the blade of the tongue on the forward part of the palate. This "back" pronunciation is less acoustically sonorant than the English "n", which is why English speakers are likely to call it "light" :-) As has been pointed out, however, it is most definitely pronounced. If there's anything else interesting to say about the pronunciation of this word, it's that the final "i" is normally not pronounced as a clear high vowel or off-glide (I've tried hard to avoid jargon, but it's tough...) So "sen-say" is not quite right, but simply elongate the "e", to something like "sensee" (of course this means Japanese "e", not English...) Djiann 21:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually "先生” was an ancient Chinese word to refer to teacher, master, etc. This word has been used frequently in China for thousands of years. After 1949 it was used less frequently, though. Japanese borrowed this word from Chinese in Tang Dynasty.
No offence to the above, but you said that 先生 *was* an ancient Chinese word. It's actually still in usage, quite a bit of of it and the characters haven't been simplified in any way. In Chinese, 先生 can mean Mr, husband, sir, or teacher, depending on the situation and/or context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 善仪 ( talk • contribs) 10:35, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm only asking if the kanji I listed is a archic version of the current kanji used. Plus, Confucius was a teacher so it can't be said mere coincidence. Fractyl 06:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
The term 'Martial art' is a used here to to cover both concepts judo literal translates as 'Gentle way' but is a martial art called 'Gentle way' the differentiation is discussed in the article Japanese martial arts. -- Nate 14 81 14:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC) "Haydn Murtagh" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.170.35 ( talk) 10:45, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Can someone replace the main photo. Honestly, the photo looks like a young apprentice warming up for a tournament, not like an experienced marital arts expert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.20.33.74 ( talk) 09:54, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes - the photo feels silly and not quite right. I am removing it. Peter Rehse ( talk)
Hello Everyone. I must file my objection to the very prominent references to "Zen Buddhism" and even a specific cult within that religion. These references are totally out of place, irrelevant and have no place here whatsoever. There is no justification for these very prominent references, which imply that the term sensei has some special association with Zen. I've been studying Japanese 42 years, have lived in Japan for 32 of those years and worked as a professional translator for 30 years. The term sensei has no more special association with Zen than it does in the context of martial or other arts, education and innumerable other facets of Japanese society. Check any Japanese dictionary and there is no special mention of Zen or Buddhism. Neither is there on the Japanese page for sensei on Wikipedia. The latter only notes differences in the Chinese usage. That is, the kanji used for sensei (先生) correspond to ordinary forms of address such as "Mr" or "Ms" (先生 = xiansheng in Pinyin, or -san -さん in Japanese) while the Chinese term for teacher (in an education context only, however) is laoshi (老師), which in Japanese happens to correspond rōshi, which in a Zen context is commonly translated as "master" or "the venerable...." But this entry concerns the word sensei, not rōshi, in which case a reference to Zen would be justified since the word has effectively entered the English language and even in Japanese is for the most part used only in association with Zen and (I think) the Tendai Sect, though I'm not sure about the latter. In any case, the religious reference is not justified here, in my view. I certainly hope that no one is allowing their desire to promote their religion of choice to trump the need for NPOV on Wikipedia. Gunnermanz ( talk) 02:35, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
The article is currently titled using the Japanese reading for the term: "sensei". I suspect this is the appropriate title per WP:COMMONNAME; anecdotally I by far see "sensei" more than I see "xiansheng", and certainly more than I see the Korean/Vietnamese variants spelled out.
In short, I think I agree with the title choice, and just want others to be aware I think there's a reason the Japanese term is used for article title. 211.43.120.242 ( talk) 07:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sensei article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
For older discussions, see: Talk:Japanese martial arts titles.
How is Sensei prononced?-- Light current 01:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Really?? You don't lean heavy on the n sound but it definately is there. Peter Rehse 01:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The 'n' sound is certainly there, but it's light as you say. You dont push your tounge to the top of your mouth at the end of the first sylable. This is why in quick speach and in some areas of japan you may not hear the 'n'... but it should be spoken an is the reading of the first kanji. Ixtli 03:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
This "n" is what linguists call the Japanese "mora nasal". The position of its pronunciation in your mouth will normally match the position of a following consonant (c.f. "hombu", where it becomes an "m"). In cases where it is not forced into a certain position, it will fall far back in the throat (as in "sensei"). Thus, it is not like the English "n", which is pronounced with the blade of the tongue on the forward part of the palate. This "back" pronunciation is less acoustically sonorant than the English "n", which is why English speakers are likely to call it "light" :-) As has been pointed out, however, it is most definitely pronounced. If there's anything else interesting to say about the pronunciation of this word, it's that the final "i" is normally not pronounced as a clear high vowel or off-glide (I've tried hard to avoid jargon, but it's tough...) So "sen-say" is not quite right, but simply elongate the "e", to something like "sensee" (of course this means Japanese "e", not English...) Djiann 21:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually "先生” was an ancient Chinese word to refer to teacher, master, etc. This word has been used frequently in China for thousands of years. After 1949 it was used less frequently, though. Japanese borrowed this word from Chinese in Tang Dynasty.
No offence to the above, but you said that 先生 *was* an ancient Chinese word. It's actually still in usage, quite a bit of of it and the characters haven't been simplified in any way. In Chinese, 先生 can mean Mr, husband, sir, or teacher, depending on the situation and/or context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 善仪 ( talk • contribs) 10:35, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm only asking if the kanji I listed is a archic version of the current kanji used. Plus, Confucius was a teacher so it can't be said mere coincidence. Fractyl 06:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
The term 'Martial art' is a used here to to cover both concepts judo literal translates as 'Gentle way' but is a martial art called 'Gentle way' the differentiation is discussed in the article Japanese martial arts. -- Nate 14 81 14:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC) "Haydn Murtagh" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.170.35 ( talk) 10:45, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Can someone replace the main photo. Honestly, the photo looks like a young apprentice warming up for a tournament, not like an experienced marital arts expert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.20.33.74 ( talk) 09:54, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes - the photo feels silly and not quite right. I am removing it. Peter Rehse ( talk)
Hello Everyone. I must file my objection to the very prominent references to "Zen Buddhism" and even a specific cult within that religion. These references are totally out of place, irrelevant and have no place here whatsoever. There is no justification for these very prominent references, which imply that the term sensei has some special association with Zen. I've been studying Japanese 42 years, have lived in Japan for 32 of those years and worked as a professional translator for 30 years. The term sensei has no more special association with Zen than it does in the context of martial or other arts, education and innumerable other facets of Japanese society. Check any Japanese dictionary and there is no special mention of Zen or Buddhism. Neither is there on the Japanese page for sensei on Wikipedia. The latter only notes differences in the Chinese usage. That is, the kanji used for sensei (先生) correspond to ordinary forms of address such as "Mr" or "Ms" (先生 = xiansheng in Pinyin, or -san -さん in Japanese) while the Chinese term for teacher (in an education context only, however) is laoshi (老師), which in Japanese happens to correspond rōshi, which in a Zen context is commonly translated as "master" or "the venerable...." But this entry concerns the word sensei, not rōshi, in which case a reference to Zen would be justified since the word has effectively entered the English language and even in Japanese is for the most part used only in association with Zen and (I think) the Tendai Sect, though I'm not sure about the latter. In any case, the religious reference is not justified here, in my view. I certainly hope that no one is allowing their desire to promote their religion of choice to trump the need for NPOV on Wikipedia. Gunnermanz ( talk) 02:35, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
The article is currently titled using the Japanese reading for the term: "sensei". I suspect this is the appropriate title per WP:COMMONNAME; anecdotally I by far see "sensei" more than I see "xiansheng", and certainly more than I see the Korean/Vietnamese variants spelled out.
In short, I think I agree with the title choice, and just want others to be aware I think there's a reason the Japanese term is used for article title. 211.43.120.242 ( talk) 07:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)