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I notice that Reitter describes "Jewish self-hatred" as an "enduringly controversial term" in his abstract and as "a pointed phrase" in his opening-paragraph. Would it be useful to use one of those instead of "perjorative term" in our lead sentence rather than "perjorative term" which is unsourced. (I know that there is a shift from "Jewish self-hatred" to "self-hating Jew" but I don't think it would be an abuse of Reitter to transfer either description to SHJ.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 15:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
There's been an implication in comments above that the tone of the article is somehow unrepresentative of the literature and therefore violates WP:NPOV. I have now searched Academic OneFile - an online journal resource to which I have access for articles in academic journals to which they grant my university access. This obviously isn't as full a search as would be expected for a systematic literature review, but there is no reason to think that the sample of articles accessible would be unrepresentative of what is in the wider academic literature.
Twenty items were initially identified by a search on the conjunction of keywords self-hat* and Jew*. They are the following:
As far as I am concerned this search is enough to demonstrate that the concept of Jewish self-hatred is treated sceptically in modern academic circles. As a historical concept applied to 19th and early 20th century Jews, especially in German speaking settings, it gets some consideration. It is also recognised as having had some psychological respectability in post-War America. However it is also seen as embedded as a rhetorical term in the discourse of Zionism from its earlier years. The sceptical treatment of the subject in the current version of our article is reflective of mainstream academic opinion and therefore the article accords with WP:NPOV. Indeed other academic sources have been identified by editors and included in the article which reinforce this assessment-- Peter cohen ( talk) 17:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of what you think of the subject you need to explain the rationale and thiking of those that use the concept. The article hsould endeavour to let the reader decide what is valid or not. Finlay who is quoted extensively quite clearly accepts that the phenomena is real, he just doesn't think it is a useful academic term. The fact that academia don't use it doesn't mean the term has no validity in itself within inter-jewish dialogues.
The body of this article is completely unreadable. Perhaps you would be so kind as to point me to the line number of the first line that states what advocates of the term say. Telaviv1 ( talk) 19:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
That is not what advocates say it is but what people using it as an insult say.
Basically the article needs to quote what advocates of the term are saying. Most of the articles in the list refer to self-hatred as genuine: Peter has simply dismissed anything that he doesn't like as either a red herring or irrelevant. If you think the concept is primarily a Zionist one, I guess that is fine so long as you explain what the Zionists are arguing and that is not happening.
Oh and to say that hannah arendt's book describes Eichmann's trial as a show trial is a complete misrepresentation of the book.
Just follow the link and read.
Also it is problematic to judge the content of the term by how extremists use it. Telaviv1 ( talk) 20:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
I continue to believe that Jewish self-hatred is a concept that is different from, but related to, the epithet "self-hating Jew". There may be a phenomenon of internalized antisemitism that results in self-hatred among Jews, but when a Jew calls another Jew a "self-hating Jew", she or he is saying "You don't meet my definition of Jewishness because you hold opinions that I find loathesome."
I think we either need to clearly identify and separate the two concepts in this article, or make two articles. My personal preference is for two articles. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 19:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Don't split it. if you want to make a distinction explain it in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Telaviv1 ( talk • contribs) 20:26, May 28, 2009
I think its probably better to keep Jewish and afro-american issues apart.
There are a number of books on the topic which didn't show up on Peter's search and Finlay refers to a host of articles. We seem to agree that it is logically possible for Jews to be self-hating and that some may exist. The problem is not whther these Jews exist (as stated in the lede) but the diffuculty of telling whterh their opinions stem froms self-hatred or a rejection of communal standards. At present the article implies that Jews can never be anti-semitic and that is unacceptable. Telaviv1 ( talk) 04:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I suggest inserting this into the lede:
The concept of Jewish self-hatred originated in the early twentieth century, and gained more widespread currency after Theodor Lessing's 1930 book Der Jüdische Selbsthass ("Jewish Self-hatred"):
-
- To the question "Why are we not loved?" Jewish doctrine has answered since ancient times: "because we are guilty". There have been great Jewish thinkers who have discovered in this formula, "Because we are guilty", and in the experience of the collective attribution of guilt and responsibility of the people of Israel, the innermost core of the Jewish doctrine. [1]
Proponents of the concept consider it related to internalized oppression in which victims adopt the oppressors point of view as in anti-feminist women or Uncle Toms. According to Gilman it arises out of a desire for social acceptance in which the "victim" both accepts dominant social stereotypes as true while trying to distance themselves from those sterotypes.
Self hatred arises from outsiders' acceptance of the mirage of themselves generated by their reference group - that group in society which they see as defining them - as a reality. [2]
Against that one then pits the Finlay view which says that evidence relies on socially constructed view of 'how a Jews must think' or something like that.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 05:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm voting "no" to the idea of a second article because it would be Wikipedia:Content forking and would be in severe danger of becoming a POV fork. There might be an argument for splitting out an article on, say, rejection of Jewish identity in Germany in the 19th and early 20th centuries, as that would be more self-contained and would be an appropriate use of WP:Summary style if our coverage became large. But a split between articles on "genuine" self-hatred and "bogus" claims of self-hatred would invite editors with particular opinions to congregate in particular articles.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 12:15, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps the article should be renamed to "Jewish Self-Hatred" and then "self-hating Jew" could be a section of that. Telaviv1 ( talk) 05:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
If no one objects in the next couple of days I will do that. Telaviv1 ( talk) 16:25, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
You may not like what I have just done: I simply slotted some stuff into " Jewish self-hatred".
Have a look and see what you think.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 14:40, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
thoroughly debunked is entirely your opinion. Telaviv1 ( talk) 16:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
No problem. Thats why I notified you of what I had done. Please note that in the UK accusations of rudeness directed at Jews may be stereotyping and that R2d2 has previously employed sterotypes when addressing with me on this page. Telaviv1 ( talk) 13:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Why don't you have a go at it Peter. You seem well equipped for this subject. Telaviv1 ( talk) 20:11, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment and make changes on the sub page and let me know ho you feel it needs to change.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 15:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
telaviv - do not create the page in mainspace after several users said that is inappropriate at this time. i have turned it back into a redirect. untwirl( talk) 06:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Pleaser also state your opinion on having a seperate page. Telaviv1 ( talk) 15:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
The lead of this article was grossly distorted to privilege on reading of this term and then to give even greater privilege to dismantling that usage. It's a coatracky, POV-pushing violation of WP:LEAD, and I hope people will be more circumspect in the future. IronDuke 16:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
i see no problems with the lead as is. removing an entire paragraph dealing with current usage of the term in a political context is not appropriate. i concur with peter and rd that the current lead is not a coatrack and it accurately represents both historical and contemporary usage. untwirl( talk) 20:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
There is absolutely no need to say that it is a "pejorative term" because that is perfectly obvious. What else could it be, a complimentary term? Bus stop ( talk) 00:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Several British newspapers have claimed that Ahmadinejad has identifiable Jewish roots, and that his antisemitism may only be a veiled attempt to cover these up. He was apparently born with the name Saburjian, a Jewish name meaning cloth weaver. [3] [4] [5] [6] ADM ( talk) 07:44, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
What a bunch of politically correct garbage.
Since time immemorial there were Jews (former Jews, if you wish) who found great delight in creating every conceivable mischief and evil for other Jews. This is not a matter of arguments between Hasidim and Mitnagdim, no matter how bitter those got, or between Orthodox, Redorm and secular Jews. This is going far beyond. Just check Petrus Alfonsi, Nicholas Donin, Pablo Christiani, Avner de Burgos, Guglielmo Moncada, Alessandro Franceschi, and many many others.
Was it all just a gimmick? Should all this be ignored?
The phrase "Jewish self-hatred" is the name of a book by Theodor Lessing, which examines the biographies of six people. One of them, Austrian psychiatrist and philosopher Otto Weininger, committed suicide.
Is suicide serious enough for you? Or do you still insist that the whole thing is bogus?
Here is some writing from another of these, Viennese journalist Arthur Trebitsch,
"I force myself not to think about it. But what does it help? It thinks within me... it is there all the time, painful, ugly, deadly: this knowledge about my descent. Just as a leper or a person sick with cancer carries his repulsive disease hidden under his dress and yet knows about it himself every moment, so I carry the shame and the disgrace, the metaphysical guilt of my being a Jew. What are all the sufferings and inhibitions which come from outside in comparison with this hell within? Jewishness lies in existence. You cannot shake it off. Just as little as a dog or a pig can shake off its being, just so little do I tear myself away from the eternal ties of existence, which hold me on that step between man and animal: the Jews. I feel as if I had to carry on my shoulders the entire accumulated guilt of that cursed breed of men whose poisonous elf-blood is becoming my virus. I feel as if I, I alone, had to do penance for every crime those people are committing against German-ness. And to the Germans I should like to shout: Remain hard! Remain hard! Have no mercy! Not even with me! Germans, your walls must remain secure against penetration. They must not have any secret little door in the rear which could be opened for single persons. because, surely, some day through this little door treason would creep in... Close your hearts and your ears to all those who from out there still beg for admission. Everything is at stake! You last little fortress of Aryanism, remain strong and faithful! Away with this pestilential poor! Burn out this nest of wasps! Even though along with the unrighteous a hundred righteous ones are destroyed. What do they matter? What do we matter? What do I matter? No! Have no mercy! I beg of you."
Is this not self-hatred? 75.82.34.127 ( talk) 14:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Just look at Wikipedia entry for Fascism. Just because today everybody calls everybody “fascist," does it mean that the whole thing is bogus, that there never was any fascism? Not at all. Wikipedia correctly devotes a huge entry to fascism, which also includes a small explanation about the pejorative and near-meaningless use (or rather misuse) of the term.
Same should be happening here. 75.82.34.127 ( talk) 15:01, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Kenneth Levin, a Harvard psychiatrist says that Jewish self-hatred has two causes: "Stockholm Syndrome, where population segments under chronic siege commonly embrace the indictments of their besiegers however bigoted and outrageous", as well as "the psychodynamics of abused children who blame themselves for their situation and believe they could mollify their tormentors if they were 'good'." This quote needs a citation
- moved from the page, as my attempts to cite it online have failed, which suggests that whoever added it, probably from an offline source, needs to add it. Rd232 talk 10:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
I searched for this and found it first time. [7] You are a POV editor and should not be editing this page. Telaviv1 ( talk) 19:59, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Antony Lerman, Jewish Quarterly is used about 8 times and the link is dead. Telaviv1 ( talk) 19:59, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
The Jewish Task Force likes to use this term, mention them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.197.107 ( talk) 05:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Someone should include some pop cultural references, such as the episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where Larry David is accused of being a self-hating Jew. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.67.39.120 ( talk) 04:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX
17:16, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm a Jew but am quite anti zionist and have been accused of being self hating before. However I know that self hating Jews exist because I've come across them online, they don't think the holocaust existed and repeat Nazi dogmas. Is there a recognition that sometimes the whole definition of a self-hating Jew can include anti-zionism, but that's not the only thing it could include? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.63.6 ( talk) 02:58, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Considering the number of high profile Jews who have been accused of it and criticized the phrase and/or allegation, doesn't the article need a criticism section, not just a paragraph with two sentences of criticisms surrounding one sentence which seems to support the phrase (unless it is written unclearly). CarolMooreDC ( talk) 14:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
I think a major cause for many of us Jews would be extreme embarrassment - not self hatred. If you grow up and largely live outside the Jewish cultural ( racial fairly pure but never immersed in the day to day propaganda of a culture ), you are embarrassed. It is strange to see blind adherence to beliefs that are irrelavant ( even provably false ) to most questions. Boy would I have had to be beaten as a kid to believe most of it - probably still wouldn't have, just been sore. Even the article on SelfHatred can't escape the indoctination. 159.105.80.220 ( talk) 20:42, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
It's the purpose of the term to imply that if a Jew does not agree with racist and elitist views of Jews, Jewish political destiny, and/or Zionism, they are somehow not a "real" Jew, and worse, must loath being a Jew. It sounds rather like a extreme form of bigoted PC brainwashing to me.
75.82.34.127 ( talk) 06:40, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
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In my last edit I have made two major changes to the article.
First of all, a "Controversy and criticism of the term" section. Please note that this section is not criticism of the concept of a Jew being bad for the Jewish community (so Jewish Anti-Zionism does not qualify per se), nor is it about people who may or may not be considered "Self-hating Jews" (so don't turn the section into a discussion whether or not someone is a "Self-hating Jew"); the section is specifically for cases where reliable secondary or tertiary sources have either noted controversy around someone being called a "Self-hating Jew" OR directly criticize the way the term is commonly used today. The term "Self-hating Jew" or "Self-loathing Jew" (or something unambiguously close) MUST be present in these sources lest it becomes a WP:SYNTHESIS section.
Second of all, I removed several groups and persons from the "See also" section. This was merely a bold action that I feel complies with our policy related to how we no longer assign ideological categories (e.g. Antisemitism) to pages of persons and organizations, no matter how obvious it is that they are. This is not meant to be censorship, though. A sourced section that describes known cases of self-hating Jews or self-hating Jewish groups would be perfectly viable. Thanks. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) ( talk) 11:45, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
The rabbis of the Talmud didn't write about self-hating Jews, so citing the Talmud is impermissible original research. Ditto for most of the other sources cited in the text I reverted.
This is an article about the phrase "self-hating Jew", not about Jews perceived (by whom?) to be acting against the interests of other Jews. If the source isn't about the phrase, chances are you're engaging in original research.
Finally, writing about living people requires special care, such as only citing sources of the highest quality. That care was not exercised. — MShabazz Talk/ Stalk 13:30, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please read the discussion above at length.
Revert MShabazz's bulk deletion (twice! once without discussing). פשוט pashute ♫ ( talk) 08:35, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
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disputed text under discussion HERE. Pincrete ( talk) 10:52, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
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As far as I know, Time Magazine stopped being satire in the 1920s when Burton Hadden was forced out. I put a review of a book from there as a source of an addition I made. One of the administrators deleted it with a "stop pulling my leg" comment. Nowhere in the review does the author claim it was satire and Time published it as a genuine report. Arglebargle79 ( talk) 13:58, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
"The most notorious phenomenon relating to "self-hating Jews" was during the late 1920s and '30s, when Pro-Hitler groups formed that were affiliated with the NSDAP."but the source doesn't support it. Who says it was "the most notorious"? You? Where does the source support "affiliated"? That word refers to an offical attachment, not just support. Where does the source judge this as "self-hating" anyway? You can't just use your own judgement. According to Association of German National Jews, the impossible slogan "Down with us" was a contemporary joke. If you think this source is reliable, take it to WP:RSN and see how far you get. Zero talk 14:38, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I notice that Reitter describes "Jewish self-hatred" as an "enduringly controversial term" in his abstract and as "a pointed phrase" in his opening-paragraph. Would it be useful to use one of those instead of "perjorative term" in our lead sentence rather than "perjorative term" which is unsourced. (I know that there is a shift from "Jewish self-hatred" to "self-hating Jew" but I don't think it would be an abuse of Reitter to transfer either description to SHJ.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 15:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
There's been an implication in comments above that the tone of the article is somehow unrepresentative of the literature and therefore violates WP:NPOV. I have now searched Academic OneFile - an online journal resource to which I have access for articles in academic journals to which they grant my university access. This obviously isn't as full a search as would be expected for a systematic literature review, but there is no reason to think that the sample of articles accessible would be unrepresentative of what is in the wider academic literature.
Twenty items were initially identified by a search on the conjunction of keywords self-hat* and Jew*. They are the following:
As far as I am concerned this search is enough to demonstrate that the concept of Jewish self-hatred is treated sceptically in modern academic circles. As a historical concept applied to 19th and early 20th century Jews, especially in German speaking settings, it gets some consideration. It is also recognised as having had some psychological respectability in post-War America. However it is also seen as embedded as a rhetorical term in the discourse of Zionism from its earlier years. The sceptical treatment of the subject in the current version of our article is reflective of mainstream academic opinion and therefore the article accords with WP:NPOV. Indeed other academic sources have been identified by editors and included in the article which reinforce this assessment-- Peter cohen ( talk) 17:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of what you think of the subject you need to explain the rationale and thiking of those that use the concept. The article hsould endeavour to let the reader decide what is valid or not. Finlay who is quoted extensively quite clearly accepts that the phenomena is real, he just doesn't think it is a useful academic term. The fact that academia don't use it doesn't mean the term has no validity in itself within inter-jewish dialogues.
The body of this article is completely unreadable. Perhaps you would be so kind as to point me to the line number of the first line that states what advocates of the term say. Telaviv1 ( talk) 19:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
That is not what advocates say it is but what people using it as an insult say.
Basically the article needs to quote what advocates of the term are saying. Most of the articles in the list refer to self-hatred as genuine: Peter has simply dismissed anything that he doesn't like as either a red herring or irrelevant. If you think the concept is primarily a Zionist one, I guess that is fine so long as you explain what the Zionists are arguing and that is not happening.
Oh and to say that hannah arendt's book describes Eichmann's trial as a show trial is a complete misrepresentation of the book.
Just follow the link and read.
Also it is problematic to judge the content of the term by how extremists use it. Telaviv1 ( talk) 20:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
I continue to believe that Jewish self-hatred is a concept that is different from, but related to, the epithet "self-hating Jew". There may be a phenomenon of internalized antisemitism that results in self-hatred among Jews, but when a Jew calls another Jew a "self-hating Jew", she or he is saying "You don't meet my definition of Jewishness because you hold opinions that I find loathesome."
I think we either need to clearly identify and separate the two concepts in this article, or make two articles. My personal preference is for two articles. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 19:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Don't split it. if you want to make a distinction explain it in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Telaviv1 ( talk • contribs) 20:26, May 28, 2009
I think its probably better to keep Jewish and afro-american issues apart.
There are a number of books on the topic which didn't show up on Peter's search and Finlay refers to a host of articles. We seem to agree that it is logically possible for Jews to be self-hating and that some may exist. The problem is not whther these Jews exist (as stated in the lede) but the diffuculty of telling whterh their opinions stem froms self-hatred or a rejection of communal standards. At present the article implies that Jews can never be anti-semitic and that is unacceptable. Telaviv1 ( talk) 04:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I suggest inserting this into the lede:
The concept of Jewish self-hatred originated in the early twentieth century, and gained more widespread currency after Theodor Lessing's 1930 book Der Jüdische Selbsthass ("Jewish Self-hatred"):
-
- To the question "Why are we not loved?" Jewish doctrine has answered since ancient times: "because we are guilty". There have been great Jewish thinkers who have discovered in this formula, "Because we are guilty", and in the experience of the collective attribution of guilt and responsibility of the people of Israel, the innermost core of the Jewish doctrine. [1]
Proponents of the concept consider it related to internalized oppression in which victims adopt the oppressors point of view as in anti-feminist women or Uncle Toms. According to Gilman it arises out of a desire for social acceptance in which the "victim" both accepts dominant social stereotypes as true while trying to distance themselves from those sterotypes.
Self hatred arises from outsiders' acceptance of the mirage of themselves generated by their reference group - that group in society which they see as defining them - as a reality. [2]
Against that one then pits the Finlay view which says that evidence relies on socially constructed view of 'how a Jews must think' or something like that.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 05:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm voting "no" to the idea of a second article because it would be Wikipedia:Content forking and would be in severe danger of becoming a POV fork. There might be an argument for splitting out an article on, say, rejection of Jewish identity in Germany in the 19th and early 20th centuries, as that would be more self-contained and would be an appropriate use of WP:Summary style if our coverage became large. But a split between articles on "genuine" self-hatred and "bogus" claims of self-hatred would invite editors with particular opinions to congregate in particular articles.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 12:15, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps the article should be renamed to "Jewish Self-Hatred" and then "self-hating Jew" could be a section of that. Telaviv1 ( talk) 05:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
If no one objects in the next couple of days I will do that. Telaviv1 ( talk) 16:25, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
You may not like what I have just done: I simply slotted some stuff into " Jewish self-hatred".
Have a look and see what you think.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 14:40, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
thoroughly debunked is entirely your opinion. Telaviv1 ( talk) 16:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
No problem. Thats why I notified you of what I had done. Please note that in the UK accusations of rudeness directed at Jews may be stereotyping and that R2d2 has previously employed sterotypes when addressing with me on this page. Telaviv1 ( talk) 13:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Why don't you have a go at it Peter. You seem well equipped for this subject. Telaviv1 ( talk) 20:11, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment and make changes on the sub page and let me know ho you feel it needs to change.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 15:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
telaviv - do not create the page in mainspace after several users said that is inappropriate at this time. i have turned it back into a redirect. untwirl( talk) 06:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Pleaser also state your opinion on having a seperate page. Telaviv1 ( talk) 15:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
The lead of this article was grossly distorted to privilege on reading of this term and then to give even greater privilege to dismantling that usage. It's a coatracky, POV-pushing violation of WP:LEAD, and I hope people will be more circumspect in the future. IronDuke 16:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
i see no problems with the lead as is. removing an entire paragraph dealing with current usage of the term in a political context is not appropriate. i concur with peter and rd that the current lead is not a coatrack and it accurately represents both historical and contemporary usage. untwirl( talk) 20:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
There is absolutely no need to say that it is a "pejorative term" because that is perfectly obvious. What else could it be, a complimentary term? Bus stop ( talk) 00:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Several British newspapers have claimed that Ahmadinejad has identifiable Jewish roots, and that his antisemitism may only be a veiled attempt to cover these up. He was apparently born with the name Saburjian, a Jewish name meaning cloth weaver. [3] [4] [5] [6] ADM ( talk) 07:44, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
What a bunch of politically correct garbage.
Since time immemorial there were Jews (former Jews, if you wish) who found great delight in creating every conceivable mischief and evil for other Jews. This is not a matter of arguments between Hasidim and Mitnagdim, no matter how bitter those got, or between Orthodox, Redorm and secular Jews. This is going far beyond. Just check Petrus Alfonsi, Nicholas Donin, Pablo Christiani, Avner de Burgos, Guglielmo Moncada, Alessandro Franceschi, and many many others.
Was it all just a gimmick? Should all this be ignored?
The phrase "Jewish self-hatred" is the name of a book by Theodor Lessing, which examines the biographies of six people. One of them, Austrian psychiatrist and philosopher Otto Weininger, committed suicide.
Is suicide serious enough for you? Or do you still insist that the whole thing is bogus?
Here is some writing from another of these, Viennese journalist Arthur Trebitsch,
"I force myself not to think about it. But what does it help? It thinks within me... it is there all the time, painful, ugly, deadly: this knowledge about my descent. Just as a leper or a person sick with cancer carries his repulsive disease hidden under his dress and yet knows about it himself every moment, so I carry the shame and the disgrace, the metaphysical guilt of my being a Jew. What are all the sufferings and inhibitions which come from outside in comparison with this hell within? Jewishness lies in existence. You cannot shake it off. Just as little as a dog or a pig can shake off its being, just so little do I tear myself away from the eternal ties of existence, which hold me on that step between man and animal: the Jews. I feel as if I had to carry on my shoulders the entire accumulated guilt of that cursed breed of men whose poisonous elf-blood is becoming my virus. I feel as if I, I alone, had to do penance for every crime those people are committing against German-ness. And to the Germans I should like to shout: Remain hard! Remain hard! Have no mercy! Not even with me! Germans, your walls must remain secure against penetration. They must not have any secret little door in the rear which could be opened for single persons. because, surely, some day through this little door treason would creep in... Close your hearts and your ears to all those who from out there still beg for admission. Everything is at stake! You last little fortress of Aryanism, remain strong and faithful! Away with this pestilential poor! Burn out this nest of wasps! Even though along with the unrighteous a hundred righteous ones are destroyed. What do they matter? What do we matter? What do I matter? No! Have no mercy! I beg of you."
Is this not self-hatred? 75.82.34.127 ( talk) 14:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Just look at Wikipedia entry for Fascism. Just because today everybody calls everybody “fascist," does it mean that the whole thing is bogus, that there never was any fascism? Not at all. Wikipedia correctly devotes a huge entry to fascism, which also includes a small explanation about the pejorative and near-meaningless use (or rather misuse) of the term.
Same should be happening here. 75.82.34.127 ( talk) 15:01, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Kenneth Levin, a Harvard psychiatrist says that Jewish self-hatred has two causes: "Stockholm Syndrome, where population segments under chronic siege commonly embrace the indictments of their besiegers however bigoted and outrageous", as well as "the psychodynamics of abused children who blame themselves for their situation and believe they could mollify their tormentors if they were 'good'." This quote needs a citation
- moved from the page, as my attempts to cite it online have failed, which suggests that whoever added it, probably from an offline source, needs to add it. Rd232 talk 10:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
I searched for this and found it first time. [7] You are a POV editor and should not be editing this page. Telaviv1 ( talk) 19:59, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Antony Lerman, Jewish Quarterly is used about 8 times and the link is dead. Telaviv1 ( talk) 19:59, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
The Jewish Task Force likes to use this term, mention them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.197.107 ( talk) 05:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Someone should include some pop cultural references, such as the episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where Larry David is accused of being a self-hating Jew. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.67.39.120 ( talk) 04:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX
17:16, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm a Jew but am quite anti zionist and have been accused of being self hating before. However I know that self hating Jews exist because I've come across them online, they don't think the holocaust existed and repeat Nazi dogmas. Is there a recognition that sometimes the whole definition of a self-hating Jew can include anti-zionism, but that's not the only thing it could include? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.63.6 ( talk) 02:58, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Considering the number of high profile Jews who have been accused of it and criticized the phrase and/or allegation, doesn't the article need a criticism section, not just a paragraph with two sentences of criticisms surrounding one sentence which seems to support the phrase (unless it is written unclearly). CarolMooreDC ( talk) 14:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
I think a major cause for many of us Jews would be extreme embarrassment - not self hatred. If you grow up and largely live outside the Jewish cultural ( racial fairly pure but never immersed in the day to day propaganda of a culture ), you are embarrassed. It is strange to see blind adherence to beliefs that are irrelavant ( even provably false ) to most questions. Boy would I have had to be beaten as a kid to believe most of it - probably still wouldn't have, just been sore. Even the article on SelfHatred can't escape the indoctination. 159.105.80.220 ( talk) 20:42, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
It's the purpose of the term to imply that if a Jew does not agree with racist and elitist views of Jews, Jewish political destiny, and/or Zionism, they are somehow not a "real" Jew, and worse, must loath being a Jew. It sounds rather like a extreme form of bigoted PC brainwashing to me.
75.82.34.127 ( talk) 06:40, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
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In my last edit I have made two major changes to the article.
First of all, a "Controversy and criticism of the term" section. Please note that this section is not criticism of the concept of a Jew being bad for the Jewish community (so Jewish Anti-Zionism does not qualify per se), nor is it about people who may or may not be considered "Self-hating Jews" (so don't turn the section into a discussion whether or not someone is a "Self-hating Jew"); the section is specifically for cases where reliable secondary or tertiary sources have either noted controversy around someone being called a "Self-hating Jew" OR directly criticize the way the term is commonly used today. The term "Self-hating Jew" or "Self-loathing Jew" (or something unambiguously close) MUST be present in these sources lest it becomes a WP:SYNTHESIS section.
Second of all, I removed several groups and persons from the "See also" section. This was merely a bold action that I feel complies with our policy related to how we no longer assign ideological categories (e.g. Antisemitism) to pages of persons and organizations, no matter how obvious it is that they are. This is not meant to be censorship, though. A sourced section that describes known cases of self-hating Jews or self-hating Jewish groups would be perfectly viable. Thanks. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) ( talk) 11:45, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
The rabbis of the Talmud didn't write about self-hating Jews, so citing the Talmud is impermissible original research. Ditto for most of the other sources cited in the text I reverted.
This is an article about the phrase "self-hating Jew", not about Jews perceived (by whom?) to be acting against the interests of other Jews. If the source isn't about the phrase, chances are you're engaging in original research.
Finally, writing about living people requires special care, such as only citing sources of the highest quality. That care was not exercised. — MShabazz Talk/ Stalk 13:30, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please read the discussion above at length.
Revert MShabazz's bulk deletion (twice! once without discussing). פשוט pashute ♫ ( talk) 08:35, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
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disputed text under discussion HERE. Pincrete ( talk) 10:52, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
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As far as I know, Time Magazine stopped being satire in the 1920s when Burton Hadden was forced out. I put a review of a book from there as a source of an addition I made. One of the administrators deleted it with a "stop pulling my leg" comment. Nowhere in the review does the author claim it was satire and Time published it as a genuine report. Arglebargle79 ( talk) 13:58, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
"The most notorious phenomenon relating to "self-hating Jews" was during the late 1920s and '30s, when Pro-Hitler groups formed that were affiliated with the NSDAP."but the source doesn't support it. Who says it was "the most notorious"? You? Where does the source support "affiliated"? That word refers to an offical attachment, not just support. Where does the source judge this as "self-hating" anyway? You can't just use your own judgement. According to Association of German National Jews, the impossible slogan "Down with us" was a contemporary joke. If you think this source is reliable, take it to WP:RSN and see how far you get. Zero talk 14:38, 28 June 2020 (UTC)