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SlimVirgin and I have agreed to let a third party, DanKeshet, act as a sort of ombudsman and take a crack at editing this article so that we can get it unprotected and undisputed. Will other editors please weigh in on this, as a precondition for unprotection -- speak now, or hold your peace for the time being. -- H.K. 07:40, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Since it seems SlimVirgin and Herschelkrustofsky both are trying to get the page unprotected, I went ahead with unprotection. It would be appreciated, however, if people can avoid significant edits to give DanKeshet's efforts a try. Otherwise, protection may be necessary again. -- Michael Snow 21:35, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source for the statement that Amelia Baynton Robinson was the third founder? I've checked the Schiller biography of her and its tribute to her, but neither of them says this: just that she was an early board member. If someone has a source, could they post it here please, or in the article? Many thanks, Slim 14:21, Jan 9, 2005 (UTC)
The whole thing requires a rewrite. It currently reads as though music and poetry are its main preoccupation, whereas it's a highly politicized organization that promotes the ideas of Lyndon LaRouche. However, I haven't wanted to even start a rewrite because it may spark another edit war. It's also hard to know where to find reliable sources, but there are Schiller sites that do make a lot of its activities clearer than this page does. SlimVirgin 23:38, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
Looks fine to me, Will. SlimVirgin 01:56, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)
Will, if Zepp-LaRouche's comment on the need for the Schiller is a translation from the German, would you mind cutting and pasting the original German here, as the translation sounds odd. I looked for it in the link you provided but couldn't find it. Thanks, SlimVirgin 00:26, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
Founder Helga Zepp LaRouche explained the need for the Schiller Institute:
I think this is correct: "We need a movement that can finally free Germany from the control of the Versailles and Jalta treaties, which have already tossed us from one catastrophe to another for a whole century." Herschel also speaks German, I believe, so he can be asked to confirm my translation. "Stürzten" is not quite "to toss", but that's more or less what she means, though I'm confused about the tense she has used. SlimVirgin 00:56, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
I've left the German in the text as this is an important quote, showing that the Schiller Institute is not about music and poetry. Well done for finding it. SlimVirgin 01:04, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
I added this new section because I was dissatisfied with our use of the word "associated" in the first sentence. This is an attempt at clarifying what exactly that association is. DanKeshet 08:08, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
I feel a little bewildered by my role here. I enjoy contributing to articles, especially when I have a chance to track down references and try to make things NPOV. But there is virtually nothing for me to do here, because this is such a narrow topic. How can I research the Schiller Institute, when I can find very few books or articles about it? I have added most of the LaRouche-related articles to my watchlist and I will continue to contribute and try to get rid of the vicious habit of personal attacks I've seen on these talk pages, but I don't know what else I can do. DanKeshet 08:08, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
I see that another editor removed a quotation because it was ascribed to Paul Schmitz, whom the editor said is not at the Schiller Institute. I am wondering how an editor can tell who is associated with the Institute, in order to avoid similar mistakes? Is there a listing somewhere? Cheers, - Willmcw 15:56, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Herschel and Weed, I'm reposting this here from the Zepp LaRouche Talk pages as no one seems to be monitoring it.
I found this:
Also, I have a question about the photo of Zepp-LaRouche that was on this page, where she is standing next to the eastern terminal of the Eurasian Land Bridge. Could Herschel or Weed explain this to me, as I thought the Eurasian Land Bridge didn't exist? SlimVirgin 20:22, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
If you have any Chinese citations, especially in relation to that photograph and the Eastern Terminal thing, we could almost certainly find someone in Wikipedia to translate it. Regarding the Holocaust quote, there was a television movie at that time showing in Germany about the Holocaust, but that doesn't weaken the force of the quote. She is saying that there is a secret, undercover Zionist lobby in Germany, which the public is unaware of, and most politicians are also unaware of. "We must use this Holocaust spoof" (possibly the movie, as you say) to "get rid of these foreign agents." What worries me about this, is that this is precisely the kind of thing Hilter said before the war; the quote from her about the need for the Schiller Institute also worried me for the same reason (Germany has to finally rid itself of the forces of Versailles and Yalta, which have made us stagger from one disaster to another for a whole century). We are not being honest if we leave this material out of the articles about her and the Schiller Institute.
Please say on which page you would prefer to discuss this so we don't have to cross-post. SlimVirgin 21:16, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
Chip or Will, would you regard this [2] as a credible source? I would like to quote from him in the Schiller Institute article. He's apparently an American writer/journalist living in Germany, and set up this website to give an alternative journalistic view. However, I don't know whether that means it's basically just a blog by an unknown writer. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin 01:23, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)
I am against merging as all magazines have their own pages. Lakinekaki 18:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Merge. Fidelio is too minor a publication to deserve an article of its own. There are no 3rd party sources in the article, an inicator of minimal notability. There are several related publications that don't call for separate articles either, such as EIR. - Will Beback · † · 19:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Merge. I see no appropriate 3rd party sources on that google link. On the first page of search results, I see a blog, an Amazon advertisement about the magazine web site, a Hungarian music web site having nothing to do with this subject, various web sites associated with the Schiller Institute, some personal pages and student essays that reference articles in the magazine, and some discussion forums. None of these are appropriate as references. Will Beback is correct that this is magazine is non-notable, as are other related publications such as EIR which, I note, already redirects to a larger article on LaRouche. - Amatulic 19:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
A week has passed and no improvements have been made to Fidelio Magazine. I propse that the merger be completed. We can add material and then split it out again when the time comes. - Will Beback · † · 10:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Merge is now complete. I removed a section recently added about the content of a current issue, leaving in the text and references about the magazine itself. - Amatulic 01:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Schiller-Institute should not be confused withe renowned institute with a similar name.-- Tresckow 04:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, please explain your opposition to having a Criticism section. This is standar format for Wikipedia articles. --
NathanDW
15:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC);
I'm looking at this edit and I'm wondering whether it has anything at all to do with the Schiller Institute. -- Marvin Diode 02:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
SlimVirgin put this comment in her edit summary as she reverted: "the conference was organized by the Schiller Institute; it was the Schiller Institute that police called a sinister cult; it is the Schiller Institute that the Germans are being lobbied to investigate."
I could see having a quote from the police calling the Schiller Institute a sinister cult, but I don't see the relevance of the quote from Duggan's sister. Her quote just makes Duggan sound like a disturbed individual. Do you have it from a verifiable source that the Schiller Institute made him disturbed? -- Marvin Diode 22:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that the materials about Kronberg's suicide that you keep removing (the PRA interview and the WM article) relate directly to the Schiller Institute and should be included in the article. If you think what is included is poorly written or too long, let's fix that, but I definetely think it should stay.
But, User:Marvin_Diode, before we get into this, I would appreciate it if you apologize for calling me a "sock puppet". [4] A checkuser was done and showed that I am not a sockpuppet. [5] Please remember to Assume Good Faith. -- Hardindr ( talk) 13:43, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone asked me to look at how to NPOV this article. It is ok at the beginning, but as people seem to have said above, gives undue weight to the young man's death considering no-one was ever convicted of any crime, and that there is a whole article about it. This death and the questions around it should be mentioned, and a link to the main article, but that should be all here as they've not been found fully liable for it. Merkinsmum 23:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Postings by socks of banned user struck-through. Will Beback talk 02:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Lyndon Larouche is an American Nationalist and he is right to defend America´s interest if necessary excluding Europe from his ideas which include just China, India, the U.S. and Russia....Germany is out in this idea.
But Helga is European and should defend the Continental idea, and that means the E.U., India, Russia and China.
Because the first idea and the second one are a contradiction. Lyndon is an American member of Congress so he defends American interest. But Helga should defend German and European interest. Europe is NOT in the Pacific Ocean. Just look a map of the World.-- 88.24.242.195 ( talk) 01:55, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd say that "cult" is not the most appropriate word to describe groups that do impose an strong discipline to its members, and use personality destruction techniques to keep them in, even if they show a will of considering to leave. For example Spanish Gypsies, that in many cases endorse the Evangelical beliefs, do use the word "Cult" to refer to their religious meetings and ceremonies, so at least in this case "Cult" may have a pejorative connotation absolutely not supported by the real facts. The good old word "sect" is much more convenient to speak about movements that do harm the minds of those entering it, and also limit their members' freedom, specially the possibility of leaving the organization. My personal experience is that the people linked to the Fusion Energy Foundation, the Executive Intelligence Review, and its cognate organization "Worker's party", do employ techniques that limit the freedom of those they meet and try to impose a condition of dependence from the organization's group of heads, even with people with nearly nil connections to them. I don't know if they're a sect, but some of their behaviors are close in appearance to those some attribute to destructive sects.-- Jgrosay ( talk) 16:08, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The allegations section is based on two sources: the lecture notes of a student who attended a conference, and Chip Berlet saying that you would hear "echoes" of antisemitism if you attended one of their meetings, but "it would not be obvious at first." Does this rise to the level of something that ought to be included in an encyclopedia article? If the institute is antisemitic, there must be some of their own published material that would demonstrate this. If not, it comes off as slander. 99.27.104.103 ( talk) 18:37, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The RfC was in two parts.
1. Is a YouTube video of an undated news program a suitable source? Does it present a copyvio problem?
There appears to be consensus that the videos do present a copyvio problem and so links to YouTube should not be used (this is pretty clear in terms of policy in any case). There is no consensus on whether they are a suitable source, because an insufficient number of editors have commented on this in the RfC. My view is that they fail WP:V because no public location where an editor can view them has been provided (discounting YouTube as impermissible). However, no editor expressed this view in the RfC and I'm not going to supervote. So, the answer to the first question is to go back to the last stable version, meaning the material should be included, but without the YouTube links. If any editor is unhappy with this state of affairs, the answer is to start a new discussion focusing on the reliability/verifiability of the Newsnight/YouTube source.
2. ... How much weight should be given to these allegations [of anti-Semitism]?
There is no clear winner in terms of numbers of editors here, and it is not possible to quantify how much weight should be given to particular allegations, because responses have not been framed in that way. However, based on the relative strengths of the arguments, there is a general consensus that allegations of anti-Semitism should be retained, and some reasonable concern has been expressed that the current coverage of the allegations may be too much. Arguments that material should be excluded because the authors are partisan are insufficient on their own, per WP:YESPOV. On the other hand, a good case has been made that the material is noteworthy and credible, based on the authority of Newsnight and its interviewees, and on the existence of collateral sourcing. So, this close favours the retention of the material, without prejudice to further discussion which might see it trimmed. I do think there is consensus against eradicating it.
There are multiple issues on which outside input would be helpful. In particular,
1. Is a YouTube video of an undated news program a suitable source? Does it present a copyvio problem?
2. The video contains allegations against the institute, including a claim that a student's lecture notes at a S.I. conference indicate antisemitic tendencies on the part of the institute, and a commentator who says that at a hypothetical S.I. meeting, one should expect "over time" to hear "an echo of the old classic antisemitic conspiracy theories" which would "not be obvious at first." How much weight should be given to these allegations? Joe Bodacious ( talk) 22:09, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
As you have not provided a link to this video it would be hard to answer some of your question. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 17:02, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Comment: the charge of anti-semitism is a serious one. It is inappropriate for an encyclopedia to provide a platform for political partisans who say their opponents "seem" anti-semitic, without providing substantial evidence. Commentators who claim to "read between the lines" and find evidence of "coded" anti-semitism should be dismissed as purveyors of fringe theories. I also don't think that a TV news commentary is an adequate source for charges of this sort. News media are frequently used for propaganda or politically partisan purposes. Newspapers and TV news may be excellent sources in some situations, but for this one I would say no. Waalkes ( talk) 21:32, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
You might as well have just said I don't like it Joe. If you want to call out policy read it first. wp:soapbox An article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view. There is no claim on the part of wikipedia in this article that this group is anyisemtic. It is objective froma npov. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 01:34, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
No Comment: Another malformed RfC (sigh) Had the filing party supplied a link to the YT vid in question I and others might have been able to give an opinion on whether or not it is a reliable source for content on XYZ. However, in its absence I have no comment.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:10, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
One can not be a few steps behind when the other is struggling to catch up. BBC is not a blacklisted source. Your examiner.com source is. What you fail to understand that source offers so little relevent information in that article you mention for Binksternet's (and me for that matter) to offer any effort to get it removed from the blacklist.It is very likely you can get the same information from a reliable source. And again I'm not absolutely sold that Chip Bertlet's comments should be considered a primary source. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 13:38, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
The German newspaper Berliner Zeitung categorizes the Schiller Institute as antisemitic.
There must be other, similar sources available, ones that call the Schiller Institute antisemitic. Binksternet ( talk) 20:42, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
I see that someone else has already commented on this. I took a longer look at this article and discovered that three of the "criticism" sub-sections all cover the same material (using the same sources), which is the Jeremiah Duggan affair, which has its own article, Death of Jeremiah Duggan. Wikipedia policy is to avoid unnecessary duplication of material that has its own article. I have provided a summary and the Main Article link. I also left Chip Berlet's fringe theory interview intact, since we appear to be nowhere near a consensus on the RfC. But it is clearly unnecessary and against policy to devote three large sections to material which already has its own article. Waalkes ( talk) 19:06, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia's policy is? Which policy is that? If it clearly is policy then you could clearly link to that policy. You've not actually made a case that it is a fringe theory. Fringe theory? You've only suggested it. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 21:36, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm all for tightening prose, for trimming redundancy where it makes sense, but this change by Waalkes had far too many serious things wrong with it, based as it was on the removal of critical information. The first thing that pops out is the header "Jeremiah Duggan affair" which belittles the incident and is not as neutral as Death of Jeremiah Duggan. The next thing is that the Scotland Yard letter is removed, though it is extremely relevant. After that, the Berliner Zeitung newspaper assessment is removed, despite its being relevant and easily verified. After that, we see that Chip Berlet is diminished in stature as a "long-time LaRouche critic" rather than as a political researcher of right-wing groups. (Berlet should be introduced as a top expert on the Schiller Institute.) Then we see that Waalkes has removed almost everything about the Schiller Institute being called a cult, especially the very negative German view, leaving in its place that a British inquest rejected the label. This sort of ham-handed attempt to remove criticism cannot be allowed here. Waalkes deserves a WP:TROUT for such transparent POV. Binksternet ( talk) 05:49, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
OK, allow me suggest then that someone propose a compromise version. The problems with the one to which Marek has twice reverted are the following: we have source material from several media sources about a specific event, which is being recycled into three supposedly separate sections, giving it excessive weight. It also seems a bit duplicitous, like an effort to milk a limited amount of hostile coverage to get every last drop of negativity into the article. And, this material has its own article, so it's not necessary to replicate all of it here. A brief summary with a "main article" link ought to be sufficient, as it normally is in other Wikipedia articles. In addition, there are unresolved issues from the RfC, in particular, how much weight to give insinuations of antisemitism which are not supported by any evidence of antisemitic activity. I will refrain from reverting as I await some sort of constructive response to these points. Joe Bodacious ( talk) 14:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
To repeat one more time what's already been said. There's absolutely no policy or guideline on Wikipedia which says the same source cannot be used more than once. That would be simply ridiculous. So stop trying to invent imaginary reasons to force your way through.
Second, these reverts, made with false edit summaries that "no material was removed" are just sneaky ways of trying to remove the "Allegations of antisemitism" section, despite the fact that there is an ongoing RfC right above. It's trying to ram through a particular POV through dishonest means, rather than waiting for the discussion above to conclude. It's disruptive and bad faithed.
Volunteer Marek ( talk) 20:29, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Re: [12].
Huh? This appears to be some bad faithed "I'm gonna slap as many tags on this section that I IDONTLIKE to make it look sketchy" strategy. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 12:44, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
And it appears you admit that you were adding in a controversial {{speculation}} tag under the cover of edits which claimed that the changes being made were non-controversial. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 12:32, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Binksternet, back on May 3 you insisted that it was all right to use low-quality sources because BLPGROUP doesn't apply. Presumably you mean that this article is only about the Schiller Institute, not LaRouche. Yet for some reason I see that you have added new criticism from sources that don't mention the Schiller Institute, only LaRouche. So, which is it? If it's about LaRouche, then BLP mostly certain does apply and the low-quality sources must go. Until this is resolved, I'm removing your sources about political parties in Australia, etc. Joe Bodacious ( talk) 04:49, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
For the benefit of other participants in this discussion, and especially since bringing Joe's actions on this article to AN/I has been brought up by @ Serialjoepsycho: above, let me make you aware that Joe decided to get pre-emptive and filed an AN/I report first here. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 12:13, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Talking here seems to have failed. This slow motion editor war doesn't seem to be working. It would probably be advisable to see some form of dispute resolution. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 00:49, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Those editors involved in Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Schiller Institute I do ask you to consider making no further changes in relation to what this dispute is over. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 22:50, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
@ FormerIP:Mentions a few things above in closing the RFC that points that I don't feel should be ignored.
"There is no consensus on whether they are a suitable source, because an insufficient number of editors have commented on this in the RfC. My view is that they fail WP:V because no public location where an editor can view them has been provided (discounting YouTube as impermissible)." You can see his full comments above in the RFC section.
I bring up this solely because it was a very good point and I think it should be addressed.
BBC under it's charter has to archive certain material. http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/dq/contents/archives.shtml here's the policy. Newsnight falls with in that policy. The big issue that feel highlighted here relates to accessibility. There is no requirement that sources be eaily accessible. WP:PAYWALL makes that clear. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 01:54, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
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SlimVirgin and I have agreed to let a third party, DanKeshet, act as a sort of ombudsman and take a crack at editing this article so that we can get it unprotected and undisputed. Will other editors please weigh in on this, as a precondition for unprotection -- speak now, or hold your peace for the time being. -- H.K. 07:40, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Since it seems SlimVirgin and Herschelkrustofsky both are trying to get the page unprotected, I went ahead with unprotection. It would be appreciated, however, if people can avoid significant edits to give DanKeshet's efforts a try. Otherwise, protection may be necessary again. -- Michael Snow 21:35, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source for the statement that Amelia Baynton Robinson was the third founder? I've checked the Schiller biography of her and its tribute to her, but neither of them says this: just that she was an early board member. If someone has a source, could they post it here please, or in the article? Many thanks, Slim 14:21, Jan 9, 2005 (UTC)
The whole thing requires a rewrite. It currently reads as though music and poetry are its main preoccupation, whereas it's a highly politicized organization that promotes the ideas of Lyndon LaRouche. However, I haven't wanted to even start a rewrite because it may spark another edit war. It's also hard to know where to find reliable sources, but there are Schiller sites that do make a lot of its activities clearer than this page does. SlimVirgin 23:38, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
Looks fine to me, Will. SlimVirgin 01:56, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)
Will, if Zepp-LaRouche's comment on the need for the Schiller is a translation from the German, would you mind cutting and pasting the original German here, as the translation sounds odd. I looked for it in the link you provided but couldn't find it. Thanks, SlimVirgin 00:26, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
Founder Helga Zepp LaRouche explained the need for the Schiller Institute:
I think this is correct: "We need a movement that can finally free Germany from the control of the Versailles and Jalta treaties, which have already tossed us from one catastrophe to another for a whole century." Herschel also speaks German, I believe, so he can be asked to confirm my translation. "Stürzten" is not quite "to toss", but that's more or less what she means, though I'm confused about the tense she has used. SlimVirgin 00:56, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
I've left the German in the text as this is an important quote, showing that the Schiller Institute is not about music and poetry. Well done for finding it. SlimVirgin 01:04, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
I added this new section because I was dissatisfied with our use of the word "associated" in the first sentence. This is an attempt at clarifying what exactly that association is. DanKeshet 08:08, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
I feel a little bewildered by my role here. I enjoy contributing to articles, especially when I have a chance to track down references and try to make things NPOV. But there is virtually nothing for me to do here, because this is such a narrow topic. How can I research the Schiller Institute, when I can find very few books or articles about it? I have added most of the LaRouche-related articles to my watchlist and I will continue to contribute and try to get rid of the vicious habit of personal attacks I've seen on these talk pages, but I don't know what else I can do. DanKeshet 08:08, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
I see that another editor removed a quotation because it was ascribed to Paul Schmitz, whom the editor said is not at the Schiller Institute. I am wondering how an editor can tell who is associated with the Institute, in order to avoid similar mistakes? Is there a listing somewhere? Cheers, - Willmcw 15:56, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Herschel and Weed, I'm reposting this here from the Zepp LaRouche Talk pages as no one seems to be monitoring it.
I found this:
Also, I have a question about the photo of Zepp-LaRouche that was on this page, where she is standing next to the eastern terminal of the Eurasian Land Bridge. Could Herschel or Weed explain this to me, as I thought the Eurasian Land Bridge didn't exist? SlimVirgin 20:22, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
If you have any Chinese citations, especially in relation to that photograph and the Eastern Terminal thing, we could almost certainly find someone in Wikipedia to translate it. Regarding the Holocaust quote, there was a television movie at that time showing in Germany about the Holocaust, but that doesn't weaken the force of the quote. She is saying that there is a secret, undercover Zionist lobby in Germany, which the public is unaware of, and most politicians are also unaware of. "We must use this Holocaust spoof" (possibly the movie, as you say) to "get rid of these foreign agents." What worries me about this, is that this is precisely the kind of thing Hilter said before the war; the quote from her about the need for the Schiller Institute also worried me for the same reason (Germany has to finally rid itself of the forces of Versailles and Yalta, which have made us stagger from one disaster to another for a whole century). We are not being honest if we leave this material out of the articles about her and the Schiller Institute.
Please say on which page you would prefer to discuss this so we don't have to cross-post. SlimVirgin 21:16, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
Chip or Will, would you regard this [2] as a credible source? I would like to quote from him in the Schiller Institute article. He's apparently an American writer/journalist living in Germany, and set up this website to give an alternative journalistic view. However, I don't know whether that means it's basically just a blog by an unknown writer. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin 01:23, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)
I am against merging as all magazines have their own pages. Lakinekaki 18:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Merge. Fidelio is too minor a publication to deserve an article of its own. There are no 3rd party sources in the article, an inicator of minimal notability. There are several related publications that don't call for separate articles either, such as EIR. - Will Beback · † · 19:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Merge. I see no appropriate 3rd party sources on that google link. On the first page of search results, I see a blog, an Amazon advertisement about the magazine web site, a Hungarian music web site having nothing to do with this subject, various web sites associated with the Schiller Institute, some personal pages and student essays that reference articles in the magazine, and some discussion forums. None of these are appropriate as references. Will Beback is correct that this is magazine is non-notable, as are other related publications such as EIR which, I note, already redirects to a larger article on LaRouche. - Amatulic 19:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
A week has passed and no improvements have been made to Fidelio Magazine. I propse that the merger be completed. We can add material and then split it out again when the time comes. - Will Beback · † · 10:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Merge is now complete. I removed a section recently added about the content of a current issue, leaving in the text and references about the magazine itself. - Amatulic 01:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Schiller-Institute should not be confused withe renowned institute with a similar name.-- Tresckow 04:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, please explain your opposition to having a Criticism section. This is standar format for Wikipedia articles. --
NathanDW
15:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC);
I'm looking at this edit and I'm wondering whether it has anything at all to do with the Schiller Institute. -- Marvin Diode 02:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
SlimVirgin put this comment in her edit summary as she reverted: "the conference was organized by the Schiller Institute; it was the Schiller Institute that police called a sinister cult; it is the Schiller Institute that the Germans are being lobbied to investigate."
I could see having a quote from the police calling the Schiller Institute a sinister cult, but I don't see the relevance of the quote from Duggan's sister. Her quote just makes Duggan sound like a disturbed individual. Do you have it from a verifiable source that the Schiller Institute made him disturbed? -- Marvin Diode 22:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that the materials about Kronberg's suicide that you keep removing (the PRA interview and the WM article) relate directly to the Schiller Institute and should be included in the article. If you think what is included is poorly written or too long, let's fix that, but I definetely think it should stay.
But, User:Marvin_Diode, before we get into this, I would appreciate it if you apologize for calling me a "sock puppet". [4] A checkuser was done and showed that I am not a sockpuppet. [5] Please remember to Assume Good Faith. -- Hardindr ( talk) 13:43, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone asked me to look at how to NPOV this article. It is ok at the beginning, but as people seem to have said above, gives undue weight to the young man's death considering no-one was ever convicted of any crime, and that there is a whole article about it. This death and the questions around it should be mentioned, and a link to the main article, but that should be all here as they've not been found fully liable for it. Merkinsmum 23:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Postings by socks of banned user struck-through. Will Beback talk 02:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Lyndon Larouche is an American Nationalist and he is right to defend America´s interest if necessary excluding Europe from his ideas which include just China, India, the U.S. and Russia....Germany is out in this idea.
But Helga is European and should defend the Continental idea, and that means the E.U., India, Russia and China.
Because the first idea and the second one are a contradiction. Lyndon is an American member of Congress so he defends American interest. But Helga should defend German and European interest. Europe is NOT in the Pacific Ocean. Just look a map of the World.-- 88.24.242.195 ( talk) 01:55, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd say that "cult" is not the most appropriate word to describe groups that do impose an strong discipline to its members, and use personality destruction techniques to keep them in, even if they show a will of considering to leave. For example Spanish Gypsies, that in many cases endorse the Evangelical beliefs, do use the word "Cult" to refer to their religious meetings and ceremonies, so at least in this case "Cult" may have a pejorative connotation absolutely not supported by the real facts. The good old word "sect" is much more convenient to speak about movements that do harm the minds of those entering it, and also limit their members' freedom, specially the possibility of leaving the organization. My personal experience is that the people linked to the Fusion Energy Foundation, the Executive Intelligence Review, and its cognate organization "Worker's party", do employ techniques that limit the freedom of those they meet and try to impose a condition of dependence from the organization's group of heads, even with people with nearly nil connections to them. I don't know if they're a sect, but some of their behaviors are close in appearance to those some attribute to destructive sects.-- Jgrosay ( talk) 16:08, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The allegations section is based on two sources: the lecture notes of a student who attended a conference, and Chip Berlet saying that you would hear "echoes" of antisemitism if you attended one of their meetings, but "it would not be obvious at first." Does this rise to the level of something that ought to be included in an encyclopedia article? If the institute is antisemitic, there must be some of their own published material that would demonstrate this. If not, it comes off as slander. 99.27.104.103 ( talk) 18:37, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The RfC was in two parts.
1. Is a YouTube video of an undated news program a suitable source? Does it present a copyvio problem?
There appears to be consensus that the videos do present a copyvio problem and so links to YouTube should not be used (this is pretty clear in terms of policy in any case). There is no consensus on whether they are a suitable source, because an insufficient number of editors have commented on this in the RfC. My view is that they fail WP:V because no public location where an editor can view them has been provided (discounting YouTube as impermissible). However, no editor expressed this view in the RfC and I'm not going to supervote. So, the answer to the first question is to go back to the last stable version, meaning the material should be included, but without the YouTube links. If any editor is unhappy with this state of affairs, the answer is to start a new discussion focusing on the reliability/verifiability of the Newsnight/YouTube source.
2. ... How much weight should be given to these allegations [of anti-Semitism]?
There is no clear winner in terms of numbers of editors here, and it is not possible to quantify how much weight should be given to particular allegations, because responses have not been framed in that way. However, based on the relative strengths of the arguments, there is a general consensus that allegations of anti-Semitism should be retained, and some reasonable concern has been expressed that the current coverage of the allegations may be too much. Arguments that material should be excluded because the authors are partisan are insufficient on their own, per WP:YESPOV. On the other hand, a good case has been made that the material is noteworthy and credible, based on the authority of Newsnight and its interviewees, and on the existence of collateral sourcing. So, this close favours the retention of the material, without prejudice to further discussion which might see it trimmed. I do think there is consensus against eradicating it.
There are multiple issues on which outside input would be helpful. In particular,
1. Is a YouTube video of an undated news program a suitable source? Does it present a copyvio problem?
2. The video contains allegations against the institute, including a claim that a student's lecture notes at a S.I. conference indicate antisemitic tendencies on the part of the institute, and a commentator who says that at a hypothetical S.I. meeting, one should expect "over time" to hear "an echo of the old classic antisemitic conspiracy theories" which would "not be obvious at first." How much weight should be given to these allegations? Joe Bodacious ( talk) 22:09, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
As you have not provided a link to this video it would be hard to answer some of your question. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 17:02, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Comment: the charge of anti-semitism is a serious one. It is inappropriate for an encyclopedia to provide a platform for political partisans who say their opponents "seem" anti-semitic, without providing substantial evidence. Commentators who claim to "read between the lines" and find evidence of "coded" anti-semitism should be dismissed as purveyors of fringe theories. I also don't think that a TV news commentary is an adequate source for charges of this sort. News media are frequently used for propaganda or politically partisan purposes. Newspapers and TV news may be excellent sources in some situations, but for this one I would say no. Waalkes ( talk) 21:32, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
You might as well have just said I don't like it Joe. If you want to call out policy read it first. wp:soapbox An article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view. There is no claim on the part of wikipedia in this article that this group is anyisemtic. It is objective froma npov. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 01:34, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
No Comment: Another malformed RfC (sigh) Had the filing party supplied a link to the YT vid in question I and others might have been able to give an opinion on whether or not it is a reliable source for content on XYZ. However, in its absence I have no comment.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:10, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
One can not be a few steps behind when the other is struggling to catch up. BBC is not a blacklisted source. Your examiner.com source is. What you fail to understand that source offers so little relevent information in that article you mention for Binksternet's (and me for that matter) to offer any effort to get it removed from the blacklist.It is very likely you can get the same information from a reliable source. And again I'm not absolutely sold that Chip Bertlet's comments should be considered a primary source. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 13:38, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
The German newspaper Berliner Zeitung categorizes the Schiller Institute as antisemitic.
There must be other, similar sources available, ones that call the Schiller Institute antisemitic. Binksternet ( talk) 20:42, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
I see that someone else has already commented on this. I took a longer look at this article and discovered that three of the "criticism" sub-sections all cover the same material (using the same sources), which is the Jeremiah Duggan affair, which has its own article, Death of Jeremiah Duggan. Wikipedia policy is to avoid unnecessary duplication of material that has its own article. I have provided a summary and the Main Article link. I also left Chip Berlet's fringe theory interview intact, since we appear to be nowhere near a consensus on the RfC. But it is clearly unnecessary and against policy to devote three large sections to material which already has its own article. Waalkes ( talk) 19:06, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia's policy is? Which policy is that? If it clearly is policy then you could clearly link to that policy. You've not actually made a case that it is a fringe theory. Fringe theory? You've only suggested it. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 21:36, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm all for tightening prose, for trimming redundancy where it makes sense, but this change by Waalkes had far too many serious things wrong with it, based as it was on the removal of critical information. The first thing that pops out is the header "Jeremiah Duggan affair" which belittles the incident and is not as neutral as Death of Jeremiah Duggan. The next thing is that the Scotland Yard letter is removed, though it is extremely relevant. After that, the Berliner Zeitung newspaper assessment is removed, despite its being relevant and easily verified. After that, we see that Chip Berlet is diminished in stature as a "long-time LaRouche critic" rather than as a political researcher of right-wing groups. (Berlet should be introduced as a top expert on the Schiller Institute.) Then we see that Waalkes has removed almost everything about the Schiller Institute being called a cult, especially the very negative German view, leaving in its place that a British inquest rejected the label. This sort of ham-handed attempt to remove criticism cannot be allowed here. Waalkes deserves a WP:TROUT for such transparent POV. Binksternet ( talk) 05:49, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
OK, allow me suggest then that someone propose a compromise version. The problems with the one to which Marek has twice reverted are the following: we have source material from several media sources about a specific event, which is being recycled into three supposedly separate sections, giving it excessive weight. It also seems a bit duplicitous, like an effort to milk a limited amount of hostile coverage to get every last drop of negativity into the article. And, this material has its own article, so it's not necessary to replicate all of it here. A brief summary with a "main article" link ought to be sufficient, as it normally is in other Wikipedia articles. In addition, there are unresolved issues from the RfC, in particular, how much weight to give insinuations of antisemitism which are not supported by any evidence of antisemitic activity. I will refrain from reverting as I await some sort of constructive response to these points. Joe Bodacious ( talk) 14:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
To repeat one more time what's already been said. There's absolutely no policy or guideline on Wikipedia which says the same source cannot be used more than once. That would be simply ridiculous. So stop trying to invent imaginary reasons to force your way through.
Second, these reverts, made with false edit summaries that "no material was removed" are just sneaky ways of trying to remove the "Allegations of antisemitism" section, despite the fact that there is an ongoing RfC right above. It's trying to ram through a particular POV through dishonest means, rather than waiting for the discussion above to conclude. It's disruptive and bad faithed.
Volunteer Marek ( talk) 20:29, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Re: [12].
Huh? This appears to be some bad faithed "I'm gonna slap as many tags on this section that I IDONTLIKE to make it look sketchy" strategy. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 12:44, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
And it appears you admit that you were adding in a controversial {{speculation}} tag under the cover of edits which claimed that the changes being made were non-controversial. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 12:32, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Binksternet, back on May 3 you insisted that it was all right to use low-quality sources because BLPGROUP doesn't apply. Presumably you mean that this article is only about the Schiller Institute, not LaRouche. Yet for some reason I see that you have added new criticism from sources that don't mention the Schiller Institute, only LaRouche. So, which is it? If it's about LaRouche, then BLP mostly certain does apply and the low-quality sources must go. Until this is resolved, I'm removing your sources about political parties in Australia, etc. Joe Bodacious ( talk) 04:49, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
For the benefit of other participants in this discussion, and especially since bringing Joe's actions on this article to AN/I has been brought up by @ Serialjoepsycho: above, let me make you aware that Joe decided to get pre-emptive and filed an AN/I report first here. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 12:13, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Talking here seems to have failed. This slow motion editor war doesn't seem to be working. It would probably be advisable to see some form of dispute resolution. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 00:49, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Those editors involved in Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Schiller Institute I do ask you to consider making no further changes in relation to what this dispute is over. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 22:50, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
@ FormerIP:Mentions a few things above in closing the RFC that points that I don't feel should be ignored.
"There is no consensus on whether they are a suitable source, because an insufficient number of editors have commented on this in the RfC. My view is that they fail WP:V because no public location where an editor can view them has been provided (discounting YouTube as impermissible)." You can see his full comments above in the RFC section.
I bring up this solely because it was a very good point and I think it should be addressed.
BBC under it's charter has to archive certain material. http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/dq/contents/archives.shtml here's the policy. Newsnight falls with in that policy. The big issue that feel highlighted here relates to accessibility. There is no requirement that sources be eaily accessible. WP:PAYWALL makes that clear. Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 01:54, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
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