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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Scanian War was copied or moved into Denmark–Sweden relations with this edit on 2011-01-09. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The Scanian War is supposedly linked to the Franco-Dutch War, but is not mentioned in that article. What does the Danish invasion of Scania have to do with that particular war? Could somebody shed some light on this?-- The Minister of War 09:52, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
The Gyldenløve War article documents the same war, though somewhat from Swedish perspective. It's got some nice info, so it would be good to merge them imho. -- The Minister of War 07:07, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I've made a new warbox for the war, linking it to the Franco-Dutch War, and linking downwards to two seperate campaigns/subwars, the Scanian offensive (not entirely satisfied with that one, but dont know any better one), and the Gyldenlove war. These two can than be subdivided into the different battles. Of course, we will have to rewrite several parts of the articles, but that shouldnt be too much of a problem. Does this division make some sense? -- The Minister of War 08:25, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
After hearing no objections, i have merged the wars once again. Looks much better imho. The Minister of War 09:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I have changed the result from “Decisive Swedish Victory” to “No result / French dictated peace”. Every Danish history book I have says this. I’m aware that there is probably a tendency to nationalism in the writing. It would be funny to hear what Swedish history books say the result is.
Anyway it is only a Swedish victory in that they did not lose anything, but they did not gain anything either. From the Danish side it is only a loss in that they did not gain anything, but they also did not lose anything. When the French dictated peace was signed Denmark held, among others, Gottorp, Gotland, Rugen, Wismar, Helsingborg and Landkrona.
They where pretty much stuck in a gridlock. Swedish victory in Skåne (at least no sign of Denmark military win in the near future), Swedish loss at sea and its German possessions all lost. This could actually have been a very long standoff war. That the Danish was heavy disappointed with the resulting peace, absolutely, that does however not make it a decisive Swedish victory. Twthmoses 02:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, the Swedes lost the battles at sea, 3000 dead in the Battle of Køge Bay alone with almost no significant Danish/Norwegian losses, however the emphasis from a Swedish POV always seems to rely solely on the ground war in Scania, which they no doubt won, but that doesn't constitutes winning the war.
User:Killerman2 thinks that the result line should read "Sweden victory, Scanian lands belongs to Sweden / French dictated peace". Based on that I assume that Killerman2 thinks that it is a Swedish victory because they got to keep / did not lose, a land they already owned for nearly 20 years. Personal I don’t disagree at all that Sweden came out in the long run with more land (= victory), but this article is not about the long run, but specified about the result in the Scanian War. There is little doubt that the Scanian War ended in a status quo, no gain and no loss for anybody in terms of land. The question is, is this to be understood as a Swedish victory since they successful defended and didn’t lose land they already had and consequently a Danish loss?
The Torstensson war (1643-1645), a very well planed and executed war, was a Swedish victory; The Karl Gustav war (Northern Wars) (1657-1660) was a Swedish victory. Both are described and stated as Swedish victories in any Danish lexicon or book that I have. The Scanian War on the other hand receives no such application in the very same books. As said previously it would be nice to hear what Swedish and Norwegian books actually say the result of this war is. Consequently I changed the result back to “No result/ French dictated peace” Comments? Twthmoses 09:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Sweden won the war becorse the Scanian lands belongs to Sweden even nows. Killerman2 12:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Recent history shows a slow moving revert war here with Killerman2 not running afoul of 3RR but nevertheless reverting to a desired result, with some borderline (or worse) incivil edit summaries to boot. Let's not do that ok? I do not think WP:3RR is a license to get 2 reverts a day. ++ Lar: t/ c 19:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I think Fred means that Killerman2 should stop reverting AWAY FROM the version that is consensus based. :) but other than that I agree. I have no dog in the hunt regarding the content dispute. I was asked to come in and give a look, and I reported what I saw. Huatai, thanks for your opinion just the same, as it's not often we see a user as apparently new as you commenting on something this esoteric. ++ Lar: t/ c 08:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the result to "status quo ante bellum", however i didnt know how to deal with the last part "/french dictated peace with no significant territorial losses or gains for either side" - so i decided to leave it there for now.
maybe it should just read "status quo ante bellum /french dictated peace". I see no need to point out that there wasn't any significant losses or gains in territory....when there was infact NO territorial changes at all. so the last sentence doesent really make sense.
Obviously i also support the consensus based version, that this conflict had no result, and therefore no winner or loser. Though some swedish territory was held by the danes at the end of the war, the french dictated peace gave the danes nothing but small war reparations from sweden, thus making it a status quo Davamb ( talk) 23:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I have removed a sentence saying: "On the way back to Landskrona the Danish army plundered all villages it passed, effectively destroying the last support it had from local peasants.". saying that the danish army lost support from the local population is a Point of view, and pure speculation. furthermore would it be correct to mention this, without mentioning all the suffering and torture the swedish army caused on the locals. it appears just slightly biased. Davamb ( talk) 13:23, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Scanian War was copied or moved into Denmark–Sweden relations with this edit on 2011-01-09. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The Scanian War is supposedly linked to the Franco-Dutch War, but is not mentioned in that article. What does the Danish invasion of Scania have to do with that particular war? Could somebody shed some light on this?-- The Minister of War 09:52, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
The Gyldenløve War article documents the same war, though somewhat from Swedish perspective. It's got some nice info, so it would be good to merge them imho. -- The Minister of War 07:07, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I've made a new warbox for the war, linking it to the Franco-Dutch War, and linking downwards to two seperate campaigns/subwars, the Scanian offensive (not entirely satisfied with that one, but dont know any better one), and the Gyldenlove war. These two can than be subdivided into the different battles. Of course, we will have to rewrite several parts of the articles, but that shouldnt be too much of a problem. Does this division make some sense? -- The Minister of War 08:25, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
After hearing no objections, i have merged the wars once again. Looks much better imho. The Minister of War 09:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I have changed the result from “Decisive Swedish Victory” to “No result / French dictated peace”. Every Danish history book I have says this. I’m aware that there is probably a tendency to nationalism in the writing. It would be funny to hear what Swedish history books say the result is.
Anyway it is only a Swedish victory in that they did not lose anything, but they did not gain anything either. From the Danish side it is only a loss in that they did not gain anything, but they also did not lose anything. When the French dictated peace was signed Denmark held, among others, Gottorp, Gotland, Rugen, Wismar, Helsingborg and Landkrona.
They where pretty much stuck in a gridlock. Swedish victory in Skåne (at least no sign of Denmark military win in the near future), Swedish loss at sea and its German possessions all lost. This could actually have been a very long standoff war. That the Danish was heavy disappointed with the resulting peace, absolutely, that does however not make it a decisive Swedish victory. Twthmoses 02:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, the Swedes lost the battles at sea, 3000 dead in the Battle of Køge Bay alone with almost no significant Danish/Norwegian losses, however the emphasis from a Swedish POV always seems to rely solely on the ground war in Scania, which they no doubt won, but that doesn't constitutes winning the war.
User:Killerman2 thinks that the result line should read "Sweden victory, Scanian lands belongs to Sweden / French dictated peace". Based on that I assume that Killerman2 thinks that it is a Swedish victory because they got to keep / did not lose, a land they already owned for nearly 20 years. Personal I don’t disagree at all that Sweden came out in the long run with more land (= victory), but this article is not about the long run, but specified about the result in the Scanian War. There is little doubt that the Scanian War ended in a status quo, no gain and no loss for anybody in terms of land. The question is, is this to be understood as a Swedish victory since they successful defended and didn’t lose land they already had and consequently a Danish loss?
The Torstensson war (1643-1645), a very well planed and executed war, was a Swedish victory; The Karl Gustav war (Northern Wars) (1657-1660) was a Swedish victory. Both are described and stated as Swedish victories in any Danish lexicon or book that I have. The Scanian War on the other hand receives no such application in the very same books. As said previously it would be nice to hear what Swedish and Norwegian books actually say the result of this war is. Consequently I changed the result back to “No result/ French dictated peace” Comments? Twthmoses 09:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Sweden won the war becorse the Scanian lands belongs to Sweden even nows. Killerman2 12:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Recent history shows a slow moving revert war here with Killerman2 not running afoul of 3RR but nevertheless reverting to a desired result, with some borderline (or worse) incivil edit summaries to boot. Let's not do that ok? I do not think WP:3RR is a license to get 2 reverts a day. ++ Lar: t/ c 19:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I think Fred means that Killerman2 should stop reverting AWAY FROM the version that is consensus based. :) but other than that I agree. I have no dog in the hunt regarding the content dispute. I was asked to come in and give a look, and I reported what I saw. Huatai, thanks for your opinion just the same, as it's not often we see a user as apparently new as you commenting on something this esoteric. ++ Lar: t/ c 08:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the result to "status quo ante bellum", however i didnt know how to deal with the last part "/french dictated peace with no significant territorial losses or gains for either side" - so i decided to leave it there for now.
maybe it should just read "status quo ante bellum /french dictated peace". I see no need to point out that there wasn't any significant losses or gains in territory....when there was infact NO territorial changes at all. so the last sentence doesent really make sense.
Obviously i also support the consensus based version, that this conflict had no result, and therefore no winner or loser. Though some swedish territory was held by the danes at the end of the war, the french dictated peace gave the danes nothing but small war reparations from sweden, thus making it a status quo Davamb ( talk) 23:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I have removed a sentence saying: "On the way back to Landskrona the Danish army plundered all villages it passed, effectively destroying the last support it had from local peasants.". saying that the danish army lost support from the local population is a Point of view, and pure speculation. furthermore would it be correct to mention this, without mentioning all the suffering and torture the swedish army caused on the locals. it appears just slightly biased. Davamb ( talk) 13:23, 23 January 2009 (UTC)