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talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sasha Grey article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Sasha Grey was nominated as a Media and drama good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (March 25, 2019, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Four adult categories were unclear, and I removed them " immediately" (= years too late) per policy. Are former porn stars supposed to be categorized like active actresses, or does that make no sense? This must be some solved problem, I just don't know what the solution was, and where it is documented, e.g., not in Category:American pornographic film actresses.
Next issue, assuming that one category is okay, which should it be? Is "bisexual" better—in a cybernetical sense, least loss of information—than "American"? For "pornographic film actors from California" I'd assume that it's better than "American pornographic film actresses", a small loss for the gender info vs. a huge win for the location.
After that it gets bizarre, not unusual in the Fields of Grey, is "LGBT adult models" better than "American female adult models", and why on earth do these rotten cats try to mix four unrelated concepts (occupation, location, gender, sexual preferences)? Categories for cinéastes, vinyl collectors, or industrial musicians would be far more interesting than this ex-job/geo/sex mash-up.
I've also replaced two "atheist" categories by one "existentialist" category. Nobody knows if she's an atheist (as in "no god or goddess at all"), a part-time atheist (as in "still praying occasionally"), or even belongs to Category:Christian existentialists, but I know that BLP-cats are no BS-bingo for best OR-guesses. – 84.46.53.95 ( talk) 19:08, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
The request made at Third Opinion has been removed (i.e. declined). Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, Third Opinion requires thorough talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here. — TransporterMan ( TALK) 13:49, 30 April 2019 (UTC) (Not watching this page)
Some months later, this is enwiki, they have a rule for everything, I didn't know WP:BLPCAT:
Categories regarding religious beliefs (or lack of such) or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief (or lack of such) or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources.
– 84.46.53.211 ( talk) 18:49, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
I also didn't know WP:DUPCAT and the mysteries of non-diffusing subcategories. It means that Category:21st-century American women musicians in addition to Category:21st-century American musicians is not a bug. It also means that enwiki is crazy, but that's no news for me. – 84.46.52.214 ( talk) 05:05, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
Apparently (found in "unarchived" AOTS G4TV videos) she hosted Sexpo Australia in 2009, and was a or the keynote speaker at AEE in 2010. – 84.46.52.192 ( talk) 14:20, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Apart from the 2010 AVN award video she also said in a published interview that she was married (not only engaged) for some time, [1] but I suggest to ignore this for now, we don't know when this happened, we can only guess (=OR based on one already disqualified TMZ article) when it ended, it's a rathole. – 84.46.52.45 ( talk) 17:27, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
So far I found only .cl/.pe/.ru sources for twitch.tv/SashaGreyStreams outside of her Twitter, not (yet) good enough to mention it on the page, maybe later, if some obvious RS reported it. – 84.46.52.103 ( talk) 02:07, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
{{
Infobox Twitch streamer}}
, "partner" is no "thing", and so far this template doesn't tempt me to embed it here. –
84.46.52.46 (
talk)
14:44, 31 December 2019 (UTC)<ref>Sasha Grey ###### (December 11, 2019). {{YouTube|############|It’s official, I’m a Twitch Partner. Let’s celebrate on another Secret Sauce Stream}}.</ref>
For some suggestions see
#Potentially unnecessary info below. Without counting pre-2019 contributors—
you're up against dozens incl.
/GA1 for a
CCC—one section I can judge is
#Books:
Maybe Grey would not be notable as an author if four books were all she ever created, and maybe
The Juliette Society is a notable trilogy in its own right. I'm aware of four translations, and the article covers two (Spanish with an image + German with a tweet) to justify "several". Of course the tweet SHOULD be replaced when a better source for the odd German title X (
The Mismade Girl) is found. I've created 2 of the 4 redirects with the help of AFC/R.
[3]
[4] I fixed the first of the trilogy redirects, not only just now.
[5]
From my PoV that's all as it should be— AFC/R guarantees four eyes—and not at all related to whose fan I am, check out
Emma Blackery for a similar case. –
84.46.53.249 (
talk)
18:44, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
{{
fanpov}}
after I tried to fix the "Twitch in the lede" issue. If you're satisfied with the current state wrt two tweets (one in #Books for a German translation + one in #Personal life for a charity stream), both to be replaced a.s.a.p., we're ready for this section. In plain DEnglish, I considered that as a personal attack, but will + cannot deny fan. –
84.46.53.249 (
talk)
19:08, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Should we start a section #Influences for topics like Keisha Grey or this? Please no #Legacy, it drives me mad. – 84.46.53.102 ( talk) 07:41, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
I was afraid of being labeled as a feminist, because I didn’t agree with many statements I saw. Later, I declared that I’m a post-modern feminist- this ain’t your grandma’s feminism. I still stand by this.– 84.46.52.152 ( talk) 14:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
At the moment the global PH spam block won't let me post an EL mentioning that Grey was their most searched for star in 2018 in three countries (and #5 in Italy) for 2018. I've started a WP:RS/N investigation required for a white list suggestion of those PH/insights on MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist. – 84.46.53.211 ( talk) 14:39, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
"In 2018 she was still the top most searched for adult star in Belarus, Russia, and the Ukraine according to Pornhub Insights": if the Kyiv Post article is the only cited source for Grey's popularity on Pornhub, then we can only mention that Grey was the top Pornhub performer in Ukraine, and not in Belarus or Russia, since only Ukraine is mentioned in the article. The Pornhub Insights article is required for us to mention her standing in Belarus and Russia. Either the Pornhub Insights link needs to be approved for the whitelist, or if that's not possible, Belarus and Russia should be removed from the sentence to meet the verifiability policy. — Newslinger talk 09:35, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Grey is listed on various more or less obscure lists, not all of them wikilinked in the article. It's a BLP policy issue if these lists contain obsolete claims such as "pornographic actress" (skipping the general "actress") or atheist (instead of the far better sourced "existentialist", which is no proper subset of "atheist"). I don't think that we should add all these lists to #See also. Maybe we can collect the known lists here:
As "DEnglish" contributor I'm amazed how enwiki ignores various "lessons learned from 1933-45". – 84.46.53.107 ( talk) 18:04, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
The layout of this article sucks, ten or more h2 sections are a red flag for me, at the moment we are at eleven h2 sections. The unclear
#Background h2 could be an
#Early life h3 in a new
#Life h2 together with the
#Personal life (as is, h3 instead of h2) and the
#Activism (h3 as is, but not under
#Career).
The unclear
#Media Recognition h3 under
#Career h2 could belong to the
#Reception h2, but actually it is about her 2006…2011 career as porn star, maybe this section should be renamed to
#Adult industry, after all she was not only a porn star in this period, but also a director, and founded at least one model agency LA factory girls. –
84.46.52.173 (
talk)
16:58, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
{{
Sofixit}}
. –
84.46.53.249 (
talk)
20:46, 7 February 2020 (UTC)For the height removed by
Ronz from the infobox I checked that the lost reference still exists on
d:Q2709, it does, no problem- However, I had to
remove the mass again, please put the item in your watchlist if you are also active on WikiData. The
WD:Living people policy is not yet translated to Russian, and folks don't get why importing the mass from ruwiki with an ancient reference is a bad idea.
BTW, the GA status on ruwiki, but not (yet) here, inspired my GA quest in December 2018. I've interrupted the current nomination until the {{
fanpov}}
issue is solved, @
Steam5,
Morbidthoughts,
Britishfinance, and
Bilorv: pinging a sample of four users who might be able to answer questions about the history of this biography before December 2018. –
84.46.53.138 (
talk)
09:08, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
{{
fanpov}}
issue went to
#Is Grey notable for anything other than her adult film work.Top-down speed reading: Lede, summarizes the body as it should. Early life, short enough. Career intro, waiting for the WP:RS/N approved RS, otherwise ready. Modeling, "footwear brand Forfex" without wikilink isn't relevant. Richardson's magazine A4 is suspicious, but the sources are good. Otherwise the Modeling incl. various notable artists is as it should be. Disclaimer.
Acting is as discussed in /GA1, nothing to do. Music is also as discussed in /GA1 with aTelecine details moved to aTelecine in GOCE (after GA1), but the Lee "Scratch" Perry trivia isn't relevant from my PoV. Books is as it should be. In Personal life "and compared her with Taylor Swift" can go. In Activism the 2011 "school reading" scandal is not more that interesting as it presumably was nine years ago, but I already trimmed this—from a former Controversies section for this incident—as far as possible without losing context. – 84.46.53.138 ( talk) 20:14, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
I'm repeating this question because the answer determines the focus of this article. Are there any mainstream sources (specifically not from the adult entertainment industry and their promoters) that meet WP:BIO showing notability for anything other than her adult film work? -- Ronz ( talk) 18:53, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
It's more than a year later, and I have the same concerns. I think it's time to just remove it as fan-pov content inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:42, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
The Twitch streaming needs discussion and perhaps more weight in the article. The two references recently offered
[13] appear unusable per
Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_306#Sportskeeda and
WP:FORBESCON --
Hipal (
talk)
19:55, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Independent Film Quarterly (IFQ) was "soft-deleted" (=AFD handled as expired PROD)
recently. There are 33 articles mentioning IFQ in plain text, presumably former wikilinks. For
Sasha Grey this affects work=Independent Film Quarterly in two references. In a quick plausibility check on
google I found only two potential sources to justify a REFUND on the first five pages with search hits, but below
THREE I'm not planning that, especially not without logging in, YMMV.
[14]
[15]
For info courtesy ping @
JzG and
Sandstein: The rename in 2019 was my idea. –
84.46.53.188 (
talk)
01:45, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sasha Grey article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Sasha Grey was nominated as a Media and drama good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (March 25, 2019, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 10 sections are present. |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
Four adult categories were unclear, and I removed them " immediately" (= years too late) per policy. Are former porn stars supposed to be categorized like active actresses, or does that make no sense? This must be some solved problem, I just don't know what the solution was, and where it is documented, e.g., not in Category:American pornographic film actresses.
Next issue, assuming that one category is okay, which should it be? Is "bisexual" better—in a cybernetical sense, least loss of information—than "American"? For "pornographic film actors from California" I'd assume that it's better than "American pornographic film actresses", a small loss for the gender info vs. a huge win for the location.
After that it gets bizarre, not unusual in the Fields of Grey, is "LGBT adult models" better than "American female adult models", and why on earth do these rotten cats try to mix four unrelated concepts (occupation, location, gender, sexual preferences)? Categories for cinéastes, vinyl collectors, or industrial musicians would be far more interesting than this ex-job/geo/sex mash-up.
I've also replaced two "atheist" categories by one "existentialist" category. Nobody knows if she's an atheist (as in "no god or goddess at all"), a part-time atheist (as in "still praying occasionally"), or even belongs to Category:Christian existentialists, but I know that BLP-cats are no BS-bingo for best OR-guesses. – 84.46.53.95 ( talk) 19:08, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
The request made at Third Opinion has been removed (i.e. declined). Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, Third Opinion requires thorough talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here. — TransporterMan ( TALK) 13:49, 30 April 2019 (UTC) (Not watching this page)
Some months later, this is enwiki, they have a rule for everything, I didn't know WP:BLPCAT:
Categories regarding religious beliefs (or lack of such) or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief (or lack of such) or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources.
– 84.46.53.211 ( talk) 18:49, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
I also didn't know WP:DUPCAT and the mysteries of non-diffusing subcategories. It means that Category:21st-century American women musicians in addition to Category:21st-century American musicians is not a bug. It also means that enwiki is crazy, but that's no news for me. – 84.46.52.214 ( talk) 05:05, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
Apparently (found in "unarchived" AOTS G4TV videos) she hosted Sexpo Australia in 2009, and was a or the keynote speaker at AEE in 2010. – 84.46.52.192 ( talk) 14:20, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Apart from the 2010 AVN award video she also said in a published interview that she was married (not only engaged) for some time, [1] but I suggest to ignore this for now, we don't know when this happened, we can only guess (=OR based on one already disqualified TMZ article) when it ended, it's a rathole. – 84.46.52.45 ( talk) 17:27, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
So far I found only .cl/.pe/.ru sources for twitch.tv/SashaGreyStreams outside of her Twitter, not (yet) good enough to mention it on the page, maybe later, if some obvious RS reported it. – 84.46.52.103 ( talk) 02:07, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
{{
Infobox Twitch streamer}}
, "partner" is no "thing", and so far this template doesn't tempt me to embed it here. –
84.46.52.46 (
talk)
14:44, 31 December 2019 (UTC)<ref>Sasha Grey ###### (December 11, 2019). {{YouTube|############|It’s official, I’m a Twitch Partner. Let’s celebrate on another Secret Sauce Stream}}.</ref>
For some suggestions see
#Potentially unnecessary info below. Without counting pre-2019 contributors—
you're up against dozens incl.
/GA1 for a
CCC—one section I can judge is
#Books:
Maybe Grey would not be notable as an author if four books were all she ever created, and maybe
The Juliette Society is a notable trilogy in its own right. I'm aware of four translations, and the article covers two (Spanish with an image + German with a tweet) to justify "several". Of course the tweet SHOULD be replaced when a better source for the odd German title X (
The Mismade Girl) is found. I've created 2 of the 4 redirects with the help of AFC/R.
[3]
[4] I fixed the first of the trilogy redirects, not only just now.
[5]
From my PoV that's all as it should be— AFC/R guarantees four eyes—and not at all related to whose fan I am, check out
Emma Blackery for a similar case. –
84.46.53.249 (
talk)
18:44, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
{{
fanpov}}
after I tried to fix the "Twitch in the lede" issue. If you're satisfied with the current state wrt two tweets (one in #Books for a German translation + one in #Personal life for a charity stream), both to be replaced a.s.a.p., we're ready for this section. In plain DEnglish, I considered that as a personal attack, but will + cannot deny fan. –
84.46.53.249 (
talk)
19:08, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Should we start a section #Influences for topics like Keisha Grey or this? Please no #Legacy, it drives me mad. – 84.46.53.102 ( talk) 07:41, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
I was afraid of being labeled as a feminist, because I didn’t agree with many statements I saw. Later, I declared that I’m a post-modern feminist- this ain’t your grandma’s feminism. I still stand by this.– 84.46.52.152 ( talk) 14:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
At the moment the global PH spam block won't let me post an EL mentioning that Grey was their most searched for star in 2018 in three countries (and #5 in Italy) for 2018. I've started a WP:RS/N investigation required for a white list suggestion of those PH/insights on MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist. – 84.46.53.211 ( talk) 14:39, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
"In 2018 she was still the top most searched for adult star in Belarus, Russia, and the Ukraine according to Pornhub Insights": if the Kyiv Post article is the only cited source for Grey's popularity on Pornhub, then we can only mention that Grey was the top Pornhub performer in Ukraine, and not in Belarus or Russia, since only Ukraine is mentioned in the article. The Pornhub Insights article is required for us to mention her standing in Belarus and Russia. Either the Pornhub Insights link needs to be approved for the whitelist, or if that's not possible, Belarus and Russia should be removed from the sentence to meet the verifiability policy. — Newslinger talk 09:35, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Grey is listed on various more or less obscure lists, not all of them wikilinked in the article. It's a BLP policy issue if these lists contain obsolete claims such as "pornographic actress" (skipping the general "actress") or atheist (instead of the far better sourced "existentialist", which is no proper subset of "atheist"). I don't think that we should add all these lists to #See also. Maybe we can collect the known lists here:
As "DEnglish" contributor I'm amazed how enwiki ignores various "lessons learned from 1933-45". – 84.46.53.107 ( talk) 18:04, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
The layout of this article sucks, ten or more h2 sections are a red flag for me, at the moment we are at eleven h2 sections. The unclear
#Background h2 could be an
#Early life h3 in a new
#Life h2 together with the
#Personal life (as is, h3 instead of h2) and the
#Activism (h3 as is, but not under
#Career).
The unclear
#Media Recognition h3 under
#Career h2 could belong to the
#Reception h2, but actually it is about her 2006…2011 career as porn star, maybe this section should be renamed to
#Adult industry, after all she was not only a porn star in this period, but also a director, and founded at least one model agency LA factory girls. –
84.46.52.173 (
talk)
16:58, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
{{
Sofixit}}
. –
84.46.53.249 (
talk)
20:46, 7 February 2020 (UTC)For the height removed by
Ronz from the infobox I checked that the lost reference still exists on
d:Q2709, it does, no problem- However, I had to
remove the mass again, please put the item in your watchlist if you are also active on WikiData. The
WD:Living people policy is not yet translated to Russian, and folks don't get why importing the mass from ruwiki with an ancient reference is a bad idea.
BTW, the GA status on ruwiki, but not (yet) here, inspired my GA quest in December 2018. I've interrupted the current nomination until the {{
fanpov}}
issue is solved, @
Steam5,
Morbidthoughts,
Britishfinance, and
Bilorv: pinging a sample of four users who might be able to answer questions about the history of this biography before December 2018. –
84.46.53.138 (
talk)
09:08, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
{{
fanpov}}
issue went to
#Is Grey notable for anything other than her adult film work.Top-down speed reading: Lede, summarizes the body as it should. Early life, short enough. Career intro, waiting for the WP:RS/N approved RS, otherwise ready. Modeling, "footwear brand Forfex" without wikilink isn't relevant. Richardson's magazine A4 is suspicious, but the sources are good. Otherwise the Modeling incl. various notable artists is as it should be. Disclaimer.
Acting is as discussed in /GA1, nothing to do. Music is also as discussed in /GA1 with aTelecine details moved to aTelecine in GOCE (after GA1), but the Lee "Scratch" Perry trivia isn't relevant from my PoV. Books is as it should be. In Personal life "and compared her with Taylor Swift" can go. In Activism the 2011 "school reading" scandal is not more that interesting as it presumably was nine years ago, but I already trimmed this—from a former Controversies section for this incident—as far as possible without losing context. – 84.46.53.138 ( talk) 20:14, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
I'm repeating this question because the answer determines the focus of this article. Are there any mainstream sources (specifically not from the adult entertainment industry and their promoters) that meet WP:BIO showing notability for anything other than her adult film work? -- Ronz ( talk) 18:53, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
It's more than a year later, and I have the same concerns. I think it's time to just remove it as fan-pov content inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:42, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
The Twitch streaming needs discussion and perhaps more weight in the article. The two references recently offered
[13] appear unusable per
Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_306#Sportskeeda and
WP:FORBESCON --
Hipal (
talk)
19:55, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Independent Film Quarterly (IFQ) was "soft-deleted" (=AFD handled as expired PROD)
recently. There are 33 articles mentioning IFQ in plain text, presumably former wikilinks. For
Sasha Grey this affects work=Independent Film Quarterly in two references. In a quick plausibility check on
google I found only two potential sources to justify a REFUND on the first five pages with search hits, but below
THREE I'm not planning that, especially not without logging in, YMMV.
[14]
[15]
For info courtesy ping @
JzG and
Sandstein: The rename in 2019 was my idea. –
84.46.53.188 (
talk)
01:45, 18 February 2020 (UTC)