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should we move such inscriptions into the new "U+10900?U+1091F" range as noted in Phoenician alphabet? has anyone a link to a working font to enable this? test: ⪔⪕⪖
I haven't the patience (or the young eyes) to check letter-by-letter: Is there any difference, other than font, between the "Hebrew transcription" and the awkwardly huge "Hebrew transliteration"? — Tamfang ( talk) 08:40, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
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Hi Elias, regarding the removals at [1] and [2], particularly re the announcement in the JoC (both the image and the sentence) and the reference to Aadloun, is this because of the lack of secondary sources? If so, I can provide. Onceinawhile ( talk) 11:26, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Le 20 de février 1855, M. Peretié, chancelier du consulat de France à Beyrouth, ayant entrepris des fouilles sur un terrain à vingt-cinq minutes de marche au sud de Sayda, l'ancienne Sidon, fut informé que son agent y avait déterré un cercueil de basalte noir, auprès d'un rocher auquel il était adossé.) Either way, I think it is highly likely that this 20 Feb date was a mis-print for 20 Jan (being 1 day after the 19 Jan discovery date quoted in the JoC), as it should not have taken so long to inform Peretié, the JoC article was published 9 days prior, and all of the scholarly references to the JoC article confirm that it related to the same. Onceinawhile ( talk) 09:48, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi Elie, I have located these images which provide all the detail on exactly where it was found. But the pixel quality is low, so I am looking for better versions. Onceinawhile ( talk) 14:36, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
This discovery not only caused a sensation but led the the despatch in 1860 of a scientific mission to Lebanon by Napoleon III that was headed by Ernest Renan…. Renan uncovered six white anthropoid marble sarcophagi in 1861. They were sent to France where they are on display to in the Musée du Louvre.
@ Elias Ziade: @ RomanDeckert: @ Onceinawhile: For the fun of it, I matched quite precisely the French map with a modern Google map (a bit of rotation and sizing are necessay to match the features perfectly) . The triangle marked "36" on the French map is exactly the triangle of ruins at this location ( 33°33′01″N 35°22′34″E / 33.550314°N 35.376162°E, Google satellite). Hope someone can get a photograph! पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 12:04, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
For the other sarcophagi discovered in this area: Commons:Category:Sidon Necropolis (covering two locations: the Ayaa Necropolis, and the Phoenician Necropolis) [6]. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 12:28, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi Elie. Just a note about the dates: Tabnit according to his article ruled circa 490 BC, which seems quite late compared to the dates of his successor Eshmunazar II. Any idea how to sort this out? Thanks for your great work on these articles! पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 07:54, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi @ Elias Ziade and पाटलिपुत्र: have either of you come across details of whether a body was found within the sarcophagus? We have that clearly stated at Tabnit sarcophagus but are silent here. This was all a long time before radiocarbon dating or DNA testing so I imagine Durighello didn’t see the point of trying to preserve it. Onceinawhile ( talk) 22:38, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
Only a piece of a jaw and teeth were found in the rubble _Elias Z. ( talkallam) 04:22, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Ce rocher s'élève en masse circulaire; son diamètre est d'environ vingt-cinq pas. Taillé verticalement à l'extérieur, il est creusé à l'intérieur en forme de voûte que recouvre une sorte de ciment dont l'antiquité ne paraît pas très-reculée. D'un côté, il contient quatre niches creusées dans son épaisseur au niveau du sol. L'une d'elles, la plus grande de toutes, a deux mètres au moins de largeur sur autant de profondeur : en face de ces niches s'en trouvent deux autres de petites dimensions; auprès d'elles est l'entrée de la grotte. Deux marches sont pratiquées dans le rocher; elles aboutissaient au point où devait être la tête du cercueil principal. Le sarcophage de basalte noir fut découvert à deux mètres de profondeur en dehors de ce tombeau. Sa place était creusée dans le roc vif; mais il devait être protégé par un caveau vouté dont on retrouve encore quelques pierres. Une dent, un morceau d'ossement et, plus tard, une mâchoire humaine furent trouvés dans les déblais.
"recouvre une sorte de ciment dont l'antiquité ne paraît pas très-reculée"- perhaps that the tomb was broken in to and then resealed?
"Deux marches sont pratiquées dans le rocher; elles aboutissaient au point où devait être la tête du cercueil principal. Le sarcophage de basalte noir fut découvert à deux mètres de profondeur en dehors de ce tombeau."is he saying the sarcophagus was moved?
"Sa place était creusée dans le roc vif; mais il devait être protégé par un caveau vouté dont on retrouve encore quelques pierres. Une dent, un morceau d'ossement et, plus tard, une mâchoire humaine furent trouvés dans les déblais."is he saying that this rubble is the rubble of the broken vault structure, so the rubble was outside the sarcophagus on the floor, and the sarcophagus was therefore empty?: Onceinawhile ( talk) 08:45, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
"Deux marches sont pratiquées dans le rocher; elles aboutissaient au point où devait être la tête du cercueil principal.[Two steps were cut in the rock, they lead to the point where the main "casket" was]
"Le sarcophage de basalte noir fut découvert à deux mètres de profondeur en dehors de ce tombeau."[The black basalt (it's not made of basalt) sarcophagus was discovered at a depth of 2 meters outside of "this" tomb] Okay so if you look at the pics from MdP you can see that the sarco of Esh II lay outside of the "cavern" or rock-cut chamber in it's own rock cut pit, covered by vault (this does not suggest that it was moved); you can also see the steps he referred to and the four niches where caskets or sarcophagi used to be; the main casket he refers to is the one that would have occupied the first and largest of the niches.
It seemed to me self-evident that using the {{ interlinear}} template was a good idea.
𐤁𐤍
bn
bin
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤕𐤁𐤍𐤕
tbnt
tabnīt
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤑𐤃𐤍𐤌
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
𐤃𐤁𐤓
dbr
dabar
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤀𐤔𐤌𐤍𐤏𐤆𐤓
ʾšmnʿzr
ʾèšmūnʿazar
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤑𐤃𐤍𐤌
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
𐤋𐤀𐤌𐤓
lʾmr
līʾmōr
𐤍𐤂𐤆𐤋𐤕
ngzlt
nagzaltī
son of king Tabnit, king of the Sidonians, king Eshmunazar, king of the Sidonians, said as follows: I was carried away
This visually aligns each word of the original text with the transliteration and the word with vowels. The layperson who's not very familiar with Phoenician can't/won't read any of the first 3 lines alone, and being able to visually see the connection between the lines makes the whole thing much more intelligible.
It does mean that the right-to-left nature of Phoenician is messed with. If someone thought it was really important not to, that one line could be left out but the transcription and vowel line could still be aligned, like this:
bn
bin
mlk
milk
tbnt
tabnīt
mlk
milk
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
dbr
dabar
mlk
milk
ʾšmnʿzr
ʾèšmūnʿazar
mlk
milk
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
lʾmr
līʾmōr
ngzlt
nagzaltī
son of king Tabnit, king of the Sidonians, king Eshmunazar, king of the Sidonians, said as follows: I was carried away
This just seems obviously less confusing to me. Could the person who thinks it's more confusing explain how? Eievie ( talk) 02:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
𐤁𐤍
bn
bin
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤕𐤁𐤍𐤕
tbnt
tabnīt
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤑𐤃𐤍𐤌
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
𐤃𐤁𐤓
dbr
dabar
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤀𐤔𐤌𐤍𐤏𐤆𐤓
ʾšmnʿzr
ʾèšmūnʿazar
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤑𐤃𐤍𐤌
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
𐤋𐤀𐤌𐤓
lʾmr
līʾmōr
𐤍𐤂𐤆𐤋𐤕
ngzlt
nagzaltī
son of king Tabnit, king of the Sidonians, king Eshmunazar, king of the Sidonians, said as follows: I was carried away
𐤁𐤍
bn
bin
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤕𐤁𐤍𐤕
tbnt
tabnīt
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤑𐤃𐤍𐤌
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
𐤃𐤁𐤓
dbr
dabar
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤀𐤔𐤌𐤍𐤏𐤆𐤓
ʾšmnʿzr
ʾèšmūnʿazar
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤑𐤃𐤍𐤌
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
𐤋𐤀𐤌𐤓
lʾmr
līʾmōr
𐤍𐤂𐤆𐤋𐤕
ngzlt
nagzaltī
son of king Tabnit, king of the Sidonians, king Eshmunazar, king of the Sidonians, said as follows: I was carried away
<div>
per line. The idea that that all that is less confusing than a single {{
fs interlinear}} template does not add up to me.
Eievie (
talk)
17:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC){{
fs interlinear}}
has several problems which would need to be sorted out before it is used here:
I have reworded the sentence in the lead in line with note 7, which says the owner of the female sarcophagus is unknown. Probably, my wording could be improved and the information should also be included in the body of the article. TSventon ( talk) 14:12, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Sarcophagus of Eshmunazar II is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 21, 2023. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
should we move such inscriptions into the new "U+10900?U+1091F" range as noted in Phoenician alphabet? has anyone a link to a working font to enable this? test: ⪔⪕⪖
I haven't the patience (or the young eyes) to check letter-by-letter: Is there any difference, other than font, between the "Hebrew transcription" and the awkwardly huge "Hebrew transliteration"? — Tamfang ( talk) 08:40, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Eshmunazar II sarcophagus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:44, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
Hi Elias, regarding the removals at [1] and [2], particularly re the announcement in the JoC (both the image and the sentence) and the reference to Aadloun, is this because of the lack of secondary sources? If so, I can provide. Onceinawhile ( talk) 11:26, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Le 20 de février 1855, M. Peretié, chancelier du consulat de France à Beyrouth, ayant entrepris des fouilles sur un terrain à vingt-cinq minutes de marche au sud de Sayda, l'ancienne Sidon, fut informé que son agent y avait déterré un cercueil de basalte noir, auprès d'un rocher auquel il était adossé.) Either way, I think it is highly likely that this 20 Feb date was a mis-print for 20 Jan (being 1 day after the 19 Jan discovery date quoted in the JoC), as it should not have taken so long to inform Peretié, the JoC article was published 9 days prior, and all of the scholarly references to the JoC article confirm that it related to the same. Onceinawhile ( talk) 09:48, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi Elie, I have located these images which provide all the detail on exactly where it was found. But the pixel quality is low, so I am looking for better versions. Onceinawhile ( talk) 14:36, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
This discovery not only caused a sensation but led the the despatch in 1860 of a scientific mission to Lebanon by Napoleon III that was headed by Ernest Renan…. Renan uncovered six white anthropoid marble sarcophagi in 1861. They were sent to France where they are on display to in the Musée du Louvre.
@ Elias Ziade: @ RomanDeckert: @ Onceinawhile: For the fun of it, I matched quite precisely the French map with a modern Google map (a bit of rotation and sizing are necessay to match the features perfectly) . The triangle marked "36" on the French map is exactly the triangle of ruins at this location ( 33°33′01″N 35°22′34″E / 33.550314°N 35.376162°E, Google satellite). Hope someone can get a photograph! पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 12:04, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
For the other sarcophagi discovered in this area: Commons:Category:Sidon Necropolis (covering two locations: the Ayaa Necropolis, and the Phoenician Necropolis) [6]. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 12:28, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi Elie. Just a note about the dates: Tabnit according to his article ruled circa 490 BC, which seems quite late compared to the dates of his successor Eshmunazar II. Any idea how to sort this out? Thanks for your great work on these articles! पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 07:54, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi @ Elias Ziade and पाटलिपुत्र: have either of you come across details of whether a body was found within the sarcophagus? We have that clearly stated at Tabnit sarcophagus but are silent here. This was all a long time before radiocarbon dating or DNA testing so I imagine Durighello didn’t see the point of trying to preserve it. Onceinawhile ( talk) 22:38, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
Only a piece of a jaw and teeth were found in the rubble _Elias Z. ( talkallam) 04:22, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Ce rocher s'élève en masse circulaire; son diamètre est d'environ vingt-cinq pas. Taillé verticalement à l'extérieur, il est creusé à l'intérieur en forme de voûte que recouvre une sorte de ciment dont l'antiquité ne paraît pas très-reculée. D'un côté, il contient quatre niches creusées dans son épaisseur au niveau du sol. L'une d'elles, la plus grande de toutes, a deux mètres au moins de largeur sur autant de profondeur : en face de ces niches s'en trouvent deux autres de petites dimensions; auprès d'elles est l'entrée de la grotte. Deux marches sont pratiquées dans le rocher; elles aboutissaient au point où devait être la tête du cercueil principal. Le sarcophage de basalte noir fut découvert à deux mètres de profondeur en dehors de ce tombeau. Sa place était creusée dans le roc vif; mais il devait être protégé par un caveau vouté dont on retrouve encore quelques pierres. Une dent, un morceau d'ossement et, plus tard, une mâchoire humaine furent trouvés dans les déblais.
"recouvre une sorte de ciment dont l'antiquité ne paraît pas très-reculée"- perhaps that the tomb was broken in to and then resealed?
"Deux marches sont pratiquées dans le rocher; elles aboutissaient au point où devait être la tête du cercueil principal. Le sarcophage de basalte noir fut découvert à deux mètres de profondeur en dehors de ce tombeau."is he saying the sarcophagus was moved?
"Sa place était creusée dans le roc vif; mais il devait être protégé par un caveau vouté dont on retrouve encore quelques pierres. Une dent, un morceau d'ossement et, plus tard, une mâchoire humaine furent trouvés dans les déblais."is he saying that this rubble is the rubble of the broken vault structure, so the rubble was outside the sarcophagus on the floor, and the sarcophagus was therefore empty?: Onceinawhile ( talk) 08:45, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
"Deux marches sont pratiquées dans le rocher; elles aboutissaient au point où devait être la tête du cercueil principal.[Two steps were cut in the rock, they lead to the point where the main "casket" was]
"Le sarcophage de basalte noir fut découvert à deux mètres de profondeur en dehors de ce tombeau."[The black basalt (it's not made of basalt) sarcophagus was discovered at a depth of 2 meters outside of "this" tomb] Okay so if you look at the pics from MdP you can see that the sarco of Esh II lay outside of the "cavern" or rock-cut chamber in it's own rock cut pit, covered by vault (this does not suggest that it was moved); you can also see the steps he referred to and the four niches where caskets or sarcophagi used to be; the main casket he refers to is the one that would have occupied the first and largest of the niches.
It seemed to me self-evident that using the {{ interlinear}} template was a good idea.
𐤁𐤍
bn
bin
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤕𐤁𐤍𐤕
tbnt
tabnīt
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤑𐤃𐤍𐤌
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
𐤃𐤁𐤓
dbr
dabar
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤀𐤔𐤌𐤍𐤏𐤆𐤓
ʾšmnʿzr
ʾèšmūnʿazar
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤑𐤃𐤍𐤌
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
𐤋𐤀𐤌𐤓
lʾmr
līʾmōr
𐤍𐤂𐤆𐤋𐤕
ngzlt
nagzaltī
son of king Tabnit, king of the Sidonians, king Eshmunazar, king of the Sidonians, said as follows: I was carried away
This visually aligns each word of the original text with the transliteration and the word with vowels. The layperson who's not very familiar with Phoenician can't/won't read any of the first 3 lines alone, and being able to visually see the connection between the lines makes the whole thing much more intelligible.
It does mean that the right-to-left nature of Phoenician is messed with. If someone thought it was really important not to, that one line could be left out but the transcription and vowel line could still be aligned, like this:
bn
bin
mlk
milk
tbnt
tabnīt
mlk
milk
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
dbr
dabar
mlk
milk
ʾšmnʿzr
ʾèšmūnʿazar
mlk
milk
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
lʾmr
līʾmōr
ngzlt
nagzaltī
son of king Tabnit, king of the Sidonians, king Eshmunazar, king of the Sidonians, said as follows: I was carried away
This just seems obviously less confusing to me. Could the person who thinks it's more confusing explain how? Eievie ( talk) 02:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
𐤁𐤍
bn
bin
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤕𐤁𐤍𐤕
tbnt
tabnīt
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤑𐤃𐤍𐤌
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
𐤃𐤁𐤓
dbr
dabar
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤀𐤔𐤌𐤍𐤏𐤆𐤓
ʾšmnʿzr
ʾèšmūnʿazar
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤑𐤃𐤍𐤌
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
𐤋𐤀𐤌𐤓
lʾmr
līʾmōr
𐤍𐤂𐤆𐤋𐤕
ngzlt
nagzaltī
son of king Tabnit, king of the Sidonians, king Eshmunazar, king of the Sidonians, said as follows: I was carried away
𐤁𐤍
bn
bin
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤕𐤁𐤍𐤕
tbnt
tabnīt
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤑𐤃𐤍𐤌
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
𐤃𐤁𐤓
dbr
dabar
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤀𐤔𐤌𐤍𐤏𐤆𐤓
ʾšmnʿzr
ʾèšmūnʿazar
𐤌𐤋𐤊
mlk
milk
𐤑𐤃𐤍𐤌
ṣdnm
ṣīdōnīm
𐤋𐤀𐤌𐤓
lʾmr
līʾmōr
𐤍𐤂𐤆𐤋𐤕
ngzlt
nagzaltī
son of king Tabnit, king of the Sidonians, king Eshmunazar, king of the Sidonians, said as follows: I was carried away
<div>
per line. The idea that that all that is less confusing than a single {{
fs interlinear}} template does not add up to me.
Eievie (
talk)
17:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC){{
fs interlinear}}
has several problems which would need to be sorted out before it is used here:
I have reworded the sentence in the lead in line with note 7, which says the owner of the female sarcophagus is unknown. Probably, my wording could be improved and the information should also be included in the body of the article. TSventon ( talk) 14:12, 7 December 2023 (UTC)