This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Same-sex marriage in South Africa article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I can't find any confirmation that same-sex marriages are legal in South Africa. The date of July 2002 mentioned was that of a court decision that one same-sex couple should receive the financial benefits of a married couple (see [1]). Google yields several pages from later dates that state that SA does not yet have legal recognition of SSMs. Can someone quote an authority on this? -- Kimiko 09:27, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
The article says "Many white South Africans, particularly Afrikaners, are very conservative on social issues.", which implies (though it doesn't state) that opposition is primarily from white South Africans, particularly Afrikaners. However, it's my understanding (which might be wrong) that same-sex marriage is unpopular among black South Africans as well, possibly even more so. Is that the case? -- Delirium 07:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
The article reads "Because homosexuals were accepted, it was easy for the government to write the legislation into the constitution." Easy? Accepted by whom? This is too vague, too general, denies the hard work of too many people, and ties into the correction about conservatism. One mixed race bar does not mean acceptance. If homosexuality was so readily accepted, why did the new government have to remove sodomy laws that were on the books? Lesbian and Gay activists joined in the struggle with the ANC to fight apartheid, thereby giving homosexual rights a place on the platform. That line should be removed entirely. Jsandrsn 19:02, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Cabinet assents to same-sex marriage Bill
-M-, Afrikaans Wikipedia
Removed the startling assertion that homosexuality was legal in apartheid-era South Africa. Rubbish; sodomy was a criminal offence until 1998. Also removed the POV statements that homosexuals were accepted, and that the 2005 decision was met with much opposition - it was, but it was also met with rejoicing from gay and lesbian South Africans and those who support sexual equality. 82.108.5.59 12:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Wouldnt it be possible to still have sodomy illegal and same-sex marriage legal?
Conjugal relations are one of the traditional factors in determining whether a marriage is consummated or not. This is particularly important because of the prevalence of "sham" marriages for the purposes of fooling immigration or financial officials.
Granted, same-sex unions are a relatively new concept, but every jurisdiction that has legalized domestic partnerships, civil unions, or same-sex marriage has done away with their sodomy laws first. 24.69.166.109 21 March 2007
Pardon my American ignorance, but aren't the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, and Canada all parliamentary and/or democratic republics? -- BDD 20:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The sentence is quite correct as is, grammatically, semantically and factually, and the "first" is not spurious. Let it go, folks. :-) BTW, Canada is not under the "British crown"; H.M. Elizabeth II is Queen of Canada quite separately from being Queen of the UK, as she is also Queen of about 15 other Commonwealth Countries. See Monarchy in Canada. Canadians have been totally on their own since the repatriation of their Constitution in 1982 cut the last tenuous links with the British government. Textorus 23:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The lead section needs more context and content. -- 70.39.133.138 12:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
As of 11:20 AM, Central Time, the page is "pie face" followed by excessive exclamation points, repeatedly, for its entire content.
11:21 AM: Sorry, must have been a fluke.
Ugh someone did tamper with the page. Hopefully someone can reverse it ASAP.
I do not see what an photo of male genitals has to do with this discussion and it makes it impossible to send it to people who would be interested if I know they will access it at work. I would edit it out but I can't figure out how. Also, this is not just a male issue. Dsrtwrendsrtwren
It says that it is widely believed to spread more AIDS in Africans, and then cites a BBC article which says nothing of the sort. It's a very biased comment, and I hope someone removes it.
The following section, added to the article by User:IZAK was deleted by User:JBKramer from the article with the insulting comment that it's "just plain made up" [2] with only threats being hurled on IZAK's talk page. In view of this behavior, and after serious comments by IZAK have been repeatedly deleted from this talk page, the Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal has been contacted to see if they can help out with the blanket censoring of IZAK's comments here, see Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-17 Religious opposition to same-sex marriage in South Africa. Hopefully, a more serious dialogue will now ensue. Thank you. IZAK 12:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC) :
A few comments. Firstly although you signed your post, if you are referring to self it's usually best to do it in the first person rather then the third person so people don't get confused. Secondly, the above either seems inappropriate given that it is unsourced, looks like original research and sounds like it's expressing a POV. I can't comment on JBKramer's alleged personal attacks on your talk page, but I feel his comment in removing what you added is fair even if ideally should be avoided. Also, I note from your talk page, you've been expressing a POV on this talk page, which many find offensive ( [3]). As other's have reminded you, the talk page is not a soapbox. Nil Einne 15:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help); Unknown parameter |accessyear=
ignored (|access-date=
suggested) (
help)
I have linked this article to Sharif Ahmed. Is it the same man? If so it would be worth explaining who he is if he is to be quoted. Rich Farmbrough, 15:46 21 November 2006 (GMT).
I moved material to this section from the 2002 ruling section. It doesn't really have anything substantive to say about reaction to the ruling; instead, it talks (a little bit) about general receptiveness of the country to the gay lifestyle. I think this needs to be either rewritten to include actual quotes or summaries thereof. It could also simply be moved to Gay rights in South Africa. -- Beland 13:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Is this merge of Civil unions in South Africa happening or what? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Can a man and woman enter a civil union in South Africa? Carolynparrishfan 12:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I wondered if anyone would ask. (Note that I have just updated the table with the 2010 statistics.) The problem with StatsSA's numbers is that they disagree with numbers from other reliable sources about SSM in South Africa. Primarily this NY Times article from July 2010:
More than 3,000 same-sex couples have been married in South Africa, with about half of those couples including at least one foreigner, the government says.
Which doesn't tally with the numbers that only show 2,460 marriages or civil partnerships by the end of 2010. There was another article that I can't find now that said about 1,000 same-sex marriages had been carried out in the first year after the law passed which, if it were true, would be even more at odds with the statistics.
That being said, I think I may know the reason for the difference (as regards the NY Times article, anyway): the Stats SA figures only reflect marriages of South African citizens and permanent residents, and not marriages solemnized in South Africa between two foreigners. (See page 1 of the report, "Statistics South Africa (Stats SA) publishes marriage data on citizens and permanent residents that are collected through the civil registration systems of DHA.") Marriages between foreigners are permitted but are not recorded in the National Population Register, and don't appear in these statistics.
The other problem is that a Civil Union Act marriage/civil partnership is open to opposite-sex couples as well as same-sex couples, so these statistics aren't actually the number of same-sex marriages conducted. However most opposite-sex couples do still marry under the 1961 Marriage Act.
If we included a note in the table mentioning these two points that would work for me, I guess. Also, in October of this year South Africa had a national census and when that data is released it will hopefully give us more accurate information about how many same-sex married couples there are in the country. - htonl ( talk) 09:11, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Same-sex marriage in South Africa article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I can't find any confirmation that same-sex marriages are legal in South Africa. The date of July 2002 mentioned was that of a court decision that one same-sex couple should receive the financial benefits of a married couple (see [1]). Google yields several pages from later dates that state that SA does not yet have legal recognition of SSMs. Can someone quote an authority on this? -- Kimiko 09:27, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
The article says "Many white South Africans, particularly Afrikaners, are very conservative on social issues.", which implies (though it doesn't state) that opposition is primarily from white South Africans, particularly Afrikaners. However, it's my understanding (which might be wrong) that same-sex marriage is unpopular among black South Africans as well, possibly even more so. Is that the case? -- Delirium 07:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
The article reads "Because homosexuals were accepted, it was easy for the government to write the legislation into the constitution." Easy? Accepted by whom? This is too vague, too general, denies the hard work of too many people, and ties into the correction about conservatism. One mixed race bar does not mean acceptance. If homosexuality was so readily accepted, why did the new government have to remove sodomy laws that were on the books? Lesbian and Gay activists joined in the struggle with the ANC to fight apartheid, thereby giving homosexual rights a place on the platform. That line should be removed entirely. Jsandrsn 19:02, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Cabinet assents to same-sex marriage Bill
-M-, Afrikaans Wikipedia
Removed the startling assertion that homosexuality was legal in apartheid-era South Africa. Rubbish; sodomy was a criminal offence until 1998. Also removed the POV statements that homosexuals were accepted, and that the 2005 decision was met with much opposition - it was, but it was also met with rejoicing from gay and lesbian South Africans and those who support sexual equality. 82.108.5.59 12:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Wouldnt it be possible to still have sodomy illegal and same-sex marriage legal?
Conjugal relations are one of the traditional factors in determining whether a marriage is consummated or not. This is particularly important because of the prevalence of "sham" marriages for the purposes of fooling immigration or financial officials.
Granted, same-sex unions are a relatively new concept, but every jurisdiction that has legalized domestic partnerships, civil unions, or same-sex marriage has done away with their sodomy laws first. 24.69.166.109 21 March 2007
Pardon my American ignorance, but aren't the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, and Canada all parliamentary and/or democratic republics? -- BDD 20:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The sentence is quite correct as is, grammatically, semantically and factually, and the "first" is not spurious. Let it go, folks. :-) BTW, Canada is not under the "British crown"; H.M. Elizabeth II is Queen of Canada quite separately from being Queen of the UK, as she is also Queen of about 15 other Commonwealth Countries. See Monarchy in Canada. Canadians have been totally on their own since the repatriation of their Constitution in 1982 cut the last tenuous links with the British government. Textorus 23:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The lead section needs more context and content. -- 70.39.133.138 12:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
As of 11:20 AM, Central Time, the page is "pie face" followed by excessive exclamation points, repeatedly, for its entire content.
11:21 AM: Sorry, must have been a fluke.
Ugh someone did tamper with the page. Hopefully someone can reverse it ASAP.
I do not see what an photo of male genitals has to do with this discussion and it makes it impossible to send it to people who would be interested if I know they will access it at work. I would edit it out but I can't figure out how. Also, this is not just a male issue. Dsrtwrendsrtwren
It says that it is widely believed to spread more AIDS in Africans, and then cites a BBC article which says nothing of the sort. It's a very biased comment, and I hope someone removes it.
The following section, added to the article by User:IZAK was deleted by User:JBKramer from the article with the insulting comment that it's "just plain made up" [2] with only threats being hurled on IZAK's talk page. In view of this behavior, and after serious comments by IZAK have been repeatedly deleted from this talk page, the Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal has been contacted to see if they can help out with the blanket censoring of IZAK's comments here, see Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-17 Religious opposition to same-sex marriage in South Africa. Hopefully, a more serious dialogue will now ensue. Thank you. IZAK 12:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC) :
A few comments. Firstly although you signed your post, if you are referring to self it's usually best to do it in the first person rather then the third person so people don't get confused. Secondly, the above either seems inappropriate given that it is unsourced, looks like original research and sounds like it's expressing a POV. I can't comment on JBKramer's alleged personal attacks on your talk page, but I feel his comment in removing what you added is fair even if ideally should be avoided. Also, I note from your talk page, you've been expressing a POV on this talk page, which many find offensive ( [3]). As other's have reminded you, the talk page is not a soapbox. Nil Einne 15:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help); Unknown parameter |accessyear=
ignored (|access-date=
suggested) (
help)
I have linked this article to Sharif Ahmed. Is it the same man? If so it would be worth explaining who he is if he is to be quoted. Rich Farmbrough, 15:46 21 November 2006 (GMT).
I moved material to this section from the 2002 ruling section. It doesn't really have anything substantive to say about reaction to the ruling; instead, it talks (a little bit) about general receptiveness of the country to the gay lifestyle. I think this needs to be either rewritten to include actual quotes or summaries thereof. It could also simply be moved to Gay rights in South Africa. -- Beland 13:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Is this merge of Civil unions in South Africa happening or what? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Can a man and woman enter a civil union in South Africa? Carolynparrishfan 12:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I wondered if anyone would ask. (Note that I have just updated the table with the 2010 statistics.) The problem with StatsSA's numbers is that they disagree with numbers from other reliable sources about SSM in South Africa. Primarily this NY Times article from July 2010:
More than 3,000 same-sex couples have been married in South Africa, with about half of those couples including at least one foreigner, the government says.
Which doesn't tally with the numbers that only show 2,460 marriages or civil partnerships by the end of 2010. There was another article that I can't find now that said about 1,000 same-sex marriages had been carried out in the first year after the law passed which, if it were true, would be even more at odds with the statistics.
That being said, I think I may know the reason for the difference (as regards the NY Times article, anyway): the Stats SA figures only reflect marriages of South African citizens and permanent residents, and not marriages solemnized in South Africa between two foreigners. (See page 1 of the report, "Statistics South Africa (Stats SA) publishes marriage data on citizens and permanent residents that are collected through the civil registration systems of DHA.") Marriages between foreigners are permitted but are not recorded in the National Population Register, and don't appear in these statistics.
The other problem is that a Civil Union Act marriage/civil partnership is open to opposite-sex couples as well as same-sex couples, so these statistics aren't actually the number of same-sex marriages conducted. However most opposite-sex couples do still marry under the 1961 Marriage Act.
If we included a note in the table mentioning these two points that would work for me, I guess. Also, in October of this year South Africa had a national census and when that data is released it will hopefully give us more accurate information about how many same-sex married couples there are in the country. - htonl ( talk) 09:11, 28 December 2011 (UTC)