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![]() | On 13 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Ise Saiō. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
As the owner of the website in question, I decided to post the information that I had collected on my personal website here at Wikipedia for the benefit of a wider audience. To mark quoting my own website as a copyright violation was perhaps a misundertanding and nothing more. The original information came from the Historical section of the Town Hall of the Town of Meiwa in Mie Prefecture, for the purpose of promoting the town to visitors and interested parties. Other sources include the excellent Saiku Historical Museum which is a short walk from Saiku station. It would be nice to remove the copyright warnings at the start of this article. If you need confirmation that I am the owner of the above website, please send an email to the address you'll find on that site under the first link (then scroll to the bottom of the page). Ka-ru 17:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I've decided to do a rewrite of this article in conjucture with a few other new articles. It seems the whole history and legend of Ise Shrine is not covered very well, which is a shame considering it is the main Shinto shrine for all of Japan. I couldn't find any info on Wikipedia on Yamatohime-no-Mikoto, for example, who is said to have founded the shrine. I'll start by first seeing what is here (the article on Ise Jingu needs expanding), and will spend some time down at Saiku Museum to make sure I get all my facts straight. This all ties in with Nachikatsuura and the Kumano Kodo so I expect it will take some time to do. Ka-ru 06:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been down to the Saiku museum and photographed the list of Saios they have printed on the wall. I did this because the list that has been posted in this article seemed a bit strange. It didn't correspond in a few places with other literature I've read. It first glace, the unsourced list is quite a bit out in terms of dates and such. Ka-ru ( talk) 04:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
QUESTION:
Can anyone help to verify that these were priestesses of
Ise Shrine
pre-dating the establishment of the Saiō system by
Emperor Temmu?
Ancient Shrine Priestesses [1] | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|
Saiō | Japanese Name | Appointed by | Relationship to Emperor | |
Princess Toyosukiirihime | 豊鍬入姫命 | Emperor Sujin | Daughter | |
Princess Yamatohime | 倭姫命 | Emperor Suinin | Daughter | |
Princess Iono | 五百野皇女 | Emperor Keikō | Daughter | |
Princess Iwashima | 伊和志真皇女 | Emperor Chūai | Daughter | |
Princess Wakatarashihime | 稚足姫皇女 | Emperor Yūryaku | Daughter | |
Princess Sasage | 荳角皇女 | Emperor Keitai | Daughter | |
Princess IwakumaQUESTION-A? | 磐隈皇女 | Emperor Kimmei | Daughter | |
Princess UjiQUESTION-B? | 菟道皇女 | Emperor Bidatsu | Daughter | |
Princess SukatehimeQUESTION-C? | 酢香手姫皇女 | Emperor Yōmei | Daughter |
References
The result of the move request was: No consensus for the proposed move to Saigū. Following Immanuelle's query below, asking if this can be redone as a move to Ise Saiō, I suggest that be opened as a fresh RM below this one; and ping all the participants here so they can give their opinion. I don't think there's quite enough clear support for that to just move it immediately, but hopefully with another proposal and another week, a consensus will form. Cheers — Amakuru ( talk) 18:33, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Saiō → Saigū – The Kokugakuin University page which I see as the most authoritative English language source uses the term Saigū to refer to the Saio https://d-museum.kokugakuin.ac.jp/eos/detail/?id=8608 and Japanese wikipedia uses Saigū to refer to her as well
I also proposed a move on the palace Saikū for the same reason. If we go through with this merge we might want Saikū to redirect here, or be the main title, but if we do that give some time for changing all the links there Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 17:53, 24 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. — Amakuru ( talk) 21:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 00:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
I cannot support changing the name of this article from it's common use name (Saiō) to a name not commonly used. Some examples of official Japanese sites on the topic: Official Local Tourism site [ Ise], Official Saiku Museum [ Historical Museum], Official Meiwa Town (location of Saiku) information guide [ [1]]. The term "Saiō" is used at the location and in all of the relevant documentation and sites related to it, including at the Ise Grand Shrine. I'm not sure if the Kokugakuin University article is using an old/historical usage of the name or a mistranslation, but it is most definitely not the name used today. A simple online search of the two terms will show this. I do want to say that I appreciate your work and your interest in this topic. Ka-ru ( talk) 14:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
As I mentioned on the category's discussion, there's confusion about the terminology. There are two kinds of Saiō/Itsuki no miko, the Ise Saiō (also called Saigū, or as Wikipedia seems to prefer Saikū) and Kamo Saiō (also called Sai'in). Because the Ise Saiō was more popular, the general term "Saiō" is often used to refer to her. I support keeping the distinction. - Invokingvajras ( talk) 03:03, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
I seem to see some confusion over some of the terms. Saiō refers to the princess/priestess, and Saikū refers to the residence. I've previously supplied links to show this. There seems to be some people connecting Saikū with the term Saigū and implying that Saikū refers to the princess/priestess without any evidence provided, which it does not, it is the residence only, situated in Meiwa Town, Mie Prefecture (again, refer back to my previous links). Again, all I can say is that the authority on this topic is the Saikū Historical Museum [ Historical Museum], a Japanese national museum set up on site for the sole purpose to research, educate, and preserve all things to do with the Saiō/Saikū. If people want, I'd be happy to rename the article "Ise no Saiō". I can't see "Saigū" being anything more than a redirect as it is simply not commonly used (where Saiō is the common -only- usage at the site, at Ise, in the town, in the prefecture). I'd be happy with a Saiō disambiguity page as I am aware that there were other Saiōs, though Ise no Saiō, as stated, was the most well know. I've just notice the Saikū article is now called Saikū Palace, which isn't quite accurate, but I can live with it. Ka-ru ( talk) 15:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is consensus against the move as proposed. There is no consensus for a move to create a (now G14'd) disambiguation page. Eirikr provides some analysis on possible ambiguity of the term "saiō", but there exists Ka-ru's initial objection, which seems to accurately summarize related discussions at Talk:Saikū. This discussion has also not determined the subjects' common names. Furthermore, the deletion of the associated dab has been uncontested for almost two weeks, which hints at a lack of strong consensus to disambiguate. ( non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 ( talk · contribs) 07:26, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Saiō → Ise Saiō – We previously had a requested move to Saigū but @ Invokingvajras: explained well how in fact we had been misunderstanding what a Saiō was.
I have since changed almost all links to Saiō to Ise Saiō in preparation for this, so the disambiguation page will have very few links /info/en/?search=Special:WhatLinksHere/Sai%C5%8D
Saigū now redirects to Saikū. There is a bit of Saikū vs Saigū debate brought up by @ Ka-ru:, so we might want to move Saikū Palace to Saigū Palace, but I see this as a separate issue and do not know the solution. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 18:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans ( talk) 19:11, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
I arrive here at this stalled mess of an RM which has been open for over a month, with no activity in 15 days. This is a very complex request, especially for someone with no particular familiarity with Japanese, to unpack. Observations:
unmarried priestess from the Imperial House of Japan. Immanuelle is asserting that Saiō is also an alternative term for Saiin (priestess),
female relatives of the Japanese emperor (termed saiō) who served as High Priestesses in Kamo shrines. The distinction between Saiō and Saiin isn't immediately totally clear to me.
I'm partially closing / refactoring this RM by performing a G14 deletion of Saiō (disambiguation), to simplify the request in an attempt to ease the determination of consensus. – wbm1058 ( talk) 15:47, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
It reads "A saiō ... was an unmarried female member of the Japanese Imperial Family, sent to Ise to serve at Ise Grand Shrine from the late 7th century until the 14th century." At my first reading, I thought "so she served there for 700 years? that can't be right". Then I assumed that the emperor could send any number of his female relatives to serve as saiōs. Only after reading some more of the article, I realised that there would (normally?) be one saiō at a time. Maproom ( talk) 08:31, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
A shogun was a military dictator of Japan from 1185 to 1868. You may just treat saiō as a kind of title: A saiō was an unmarried female member of the Japanese Imperial Family sent to Ise, but not vice versa. Moreover, this title only exists from the late 7th century to the 14th century. If there's any mistake on grammar, please help fix it.
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 13 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Ise Saiō. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
As the owner of the website in question, I decided to post the information that I had collected on my personal website here at Wikipedia for the benefit of a wider audience. To mark quoting my own website as a copyright violation was perhaps a misundertanding and nothing more. The original information came from the Historical section of the Town Hall of the Town of Meiwa in Mie Prefecture, for the purpose of promoting the town to visitors and interested parties. Other sources include the excellent Saiku Historical Museum which is a short walk from Saiku station. It would be nice to remove the copyright warnings at the start of this article. If you need confirmation that I am the owner of the above website, please send an email to the address you'll find on that site under the first link (then scroll to the bottom of the page). Ka-ru 17:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I've decided to do a rewrite of this article in conjucture with a few other new articles. It seems the whole history and legend of Ise Shrine is not covered very well, which is a shame considering it is the main Shinto shrine for all of Japan. I couldn't find any info on Wikipedia on Yamatohime-no-Mikoto, for example, who is said to have founded the shrine. I'll start by first seeing what is here (the article on Ise Jingu needs expanding), and will spend some time down at Saiku Museum to make sure I get all my facts straight. This all ties in with Nachikatsuura and the Kumano Kodo so I expect it will take some time to do. Ka-ru 06:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been down to the Saiku museum and photographed the list of Saios they have printed on the wall. I did this because the list that has been posted in this article seemed a bit strange. It didn't correspond in a few places with other literature I've read. It first glace, the unsourced list is quite a bit out in terms of dates and such. Ka-ru ( talk) 04:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
QUESTION:
Can anyone help to verify that these were priestesses of
Ise Shrine
pre-dating the establishment of the Saiō system by
Emperor Temmu?
Ancient Shrine Priestesses [1] | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|
Saiō | Japanese Name | Appointed by | Relationship to Emperor | |
Princess Toyosukiirihime | 豊鍬入姫命 | Emperor Sujin | Daughter | |
Princess Yamatohime | 倭姫命 | Emperor Suinin | Daughter | |
Princess Iono | 五百野皇女 | Emperor Keikō | Daughter | |
Princess Iwashima | 伊和志真皇女 | Emperor Chūai | Daughter | |
Princess Wakatarashihime | 稚足姫皇女 | Emperor Yūryaku | Daughter | |
Princess Sasage | 荳角皇女 | Emperor Keitai | Daughter | |
Princess IwakumaQUESTION-A? | 磐隈皇女 | Emperor Kimmei | Daughter | |
Princess UjiQUESTION-B? | 菟道皇女 | Emperor Bidatsu | Daughter | |
Princess SukatehimeQUESTION-C? | 酢香手姫皇女 | Emperor Yōmei | Daughter |
References
The result of the move request was: No consensus for the proposed move to Saigū. Following Immanuelle's query below, asking if this can be redone as a move to Ise Saiō, I suggest that be opened as a fresh RM below this one; and ping all the participants here so they can give their opinion. I don't think there's quite enough clear support for that to just move it immediately, but hopefully with another proposal and another week, a consensus will form. Cheers — Amakuru ( talk) 18:33, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Saiō → Saigū – The Kokugakuin University page which I see as the most authoritative English language source uses the term Saigū to refer to the Saio https://d-museum.kokugakuin.ac.jp/eos/detail/?id=8608 and Japanese wikipedia uses Saigū to refer to her as well
I also proposed a move on the palace Saikū for the same reason. If we go through with this merge we might want Saikū to redirect here, or be the main title, but if we do that give some time for changing all the links there Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 17:53, 24 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. — Amakuru ( talk) 21:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 00:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
I cannot support changing the name of this article from it's common use name (Saiō) to a name not commonly used. Some examples of official Japanese sites on the topic: Official Local Tourism site [ Ise], Official Saiku Museum [ Historical Museum], Official Meiwa Town (location of Saiku) information guide [ [1]]. The term "Saiō" is used at the location and in all of the relevant documentation and sites related to it, including at the Ise Grand Shrine. I'm not sure if the Kokugakuin University article is using an old/historical usage of the name or a mistranslation, but it is most definitely not the name used today. A simple online search of the two terms will show this. I do want to say that I appreciate your work and your interest in this topic. Ka-ru ( talk) 14:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
As I mentioned on the category's discussion, there's confusion about the terminology. There are two kinds of Saiō/Itsuki no miko, the Ise Saiō (also called Saigū, or as Wikipedia seems to prefer Saikū) and Kamo Saiō (also called Sai'in). Because the Ise Saiō was more popular, the general term "Saiō" is often used to refer to her. I support keeping the distinction. - Invokingvajras ( talk) 03:03, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
I seem to see some confusion over some of the terms. Saiō refers to the princess/priestess, and Saikū refers to the residence. I've previously supplied links to show this. There seems to be some people connecting Saikū with the term Saigū and implying that Saikū refers to the princess/priestess without any evidence provided, which it does not, it is the residence only, situated in Meiwa Town, Mie Prefecture (again, refer back to my previous links). Again, all I can say is that the authority on this topic is the Saikū Historical Museum [ Historical Museum], a Japanese national museum set up on site for the sole purpose to research, educate, and preserve all things to do with the Saiō/Saikū. If people want, I'd be happy to rename the article "Ise no Saiō". I can't see "Saigū" being anything more than a redirect as it is simply not commonly used (where Saiō is the common -only- usage at the site, at Ise, in the town, in the prefecture). I'd be happy with a Saiō disambiguity page as I am aware that there were other Saiōs, though Ise no Saiō, as stated, was the most well know. I've just notice the Saikū article is now called Saikū Palace, which isn't quite accurate, but I can live with it. Ka-ru ( talk) 15:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is consensus against the move as proposed. There is no consensus for a move to create a (now G14'd) disambiguation page. Eirikr provides some analysis on possible ambiguity of the term "saiō", but there exists Ka-ru's initial objection, which seems to accurately summarize related discussions at Talk:Saikū. This discussion has also not determined the subjects' common names. Furthermore, the deletion of the associated dab has been uncontested for almost two weeks, which hints at a lack of strong consensus to disambiguate. ( non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 ( talk · contribs) 07:26, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Saiō → Ise Saiō – We previously had a requested move to Saigū but @ Invokingvajras: explained well how in fact we had been misunderstanding what a Saiō was.
I have since changed almost all links to Saiō to Ise Saiō in preparation for this, so the disambiguation page will have very few links /info/en/?search=Special:WhatLinksHere/Sai%C5%8D
Saigū now redirects to Saikū. There is a bit of Saikū vs Saigū debate brought up by @ Ka-ru:, so we might want to move Saikū Palace to Saigū Palace, but I see this as a separate issue and do not know the solution. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 18:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans ( talk) 19:11, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
I arrive here at this stalled mess of an RM which has been open for over a month, with no activity in 15 days. This is a very complex request, especially for someone with no particular familiarity with Japanese, to unpack. Observations:
unmarried priestess from the Imperial House of Japan. Immanuelle is asserting that Saiō is also an alternative term for Saiin (priestess),
female relatives of the Japanese emperor (termed saiō) who served as High Priestesses in Kamo shrines. The distinction between Saiō and Saiin isn't immediately totally clear to me.
I'm partially closing / refactoring this RM by performing a G14 deletion of Saiō (disambiguation), to simplify the request in an attempt to ease the determination of consensus. – wbm1058 ( talk) 15:47, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
It reads "A saiō ... was an unmarried female member of the Japanese Imperial Family, sent to Ise to serve at Ise Grand Shrine from the late 7th century until the 14th century." At my first reading, I thought "so she served there for 700 years? that can't be right". Then I assumed that the emperor could send any number of his female relatives to serve as saiōs. Only after reading some more of the article, I realised that there would (normally?) be one saiō at a time. Maproom ( talk) 08:31, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
A shogun was a military dictator of Japan from 1185 to 1868. You may just treat saiō as a kind of title: A saiō was an unmarried female member of the Japanese Imperial Family sent to Ise, but not vice versa. Moreover, this title only exists from the late 7th century to the 14th century. If there's any mistake on grammar, please help fix it.