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This article contains a translation of 坂井三郎 from ja.wikipedia. |
I'd like to see more info on the "kōdachi" cited source. Perhaps a literature number or the title in Kanji so it can be found. When trying to follow that source, it was unclear as specifically to which title it is referring. Perhaps including the Author or is kōdachi the author? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.201.39.74 ( talk) 19:22, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
In "Zero Fighters of Our Grandfathers"(pp.338-346.), "Sakai participated in Tenka Ikka no Kai ("the biggest pyramid scheme in history."). Most of his junior pilots lost their property because of Sakai. And Sakai shed bad rumors of his former boss that warned him after the boss died. Therefore, Sakai was hated by his former comrades." Sakai has also confessed it in an interview by the author "kōdachi". What is the source that Sakai never was a part of a Pyramid scheme? If 66.58.141.104 thinks it should not be posted because it is a disgrace for Sakai,I am okay with that.-- Sicmn ( talk) 05:27, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
There never needs to be a source that someone did not do something. Actions are sourced; proof is required to verify actions. It is incumbent on the editor to provide verifiable sources for new information. That would be akin to me demanding that you cite a source proving that Sakai never danced on the head of a pin...
ScrapIronIV (
talk)
15:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Move temporarily. Wait more detailed information of Original Text for translation.
Sakai participated in Tenka Ikka no Kai ("the biggest pyramid scheme in history."). Sakai was accused of soliciting his junior pilots most and that they lost property because of Sakai. Sakai and his story were used an advertisement for Tenka Ikka no Kai, and he is credited with making money from the scheme. It is also claimed that Sakai spread rumors about of his former boss, and that he was not liked by his former comrades.See: Zero Fighters of Our Grandfathers, pp.338-344. Sakai was disliked by junior pilots because of his preaching and violence. Shoichi Sugita, a fellow ace, also called him "a liar".See: Zero Fighters of Our Grandfathers, pp.329-332. Four former Japanese Navy pilots attended Sakai's funeral.See: Zero Fighters of Our Grandfathers, pp.345-346. -- Destinjon ( talk) 12:06, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
According to "Samurai", Sakai's account of his war years, he was injured when he approched a flight of TBF Avenger torpedo bombers, not SBD's. He thought they were Wildcat fighters (the aircraft look similar at a distance). He specifically mentions the fact that they had belly guns (which the SBD did not have). In addition, he refers to the pieces of .50 cal ammo that were removed from his wounds, and the SBD rear guns were .30 cal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.204.81.54 ( talk) 20:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC).
I agree with the person above. It is also mentioned in "Samurai!" by Saburo Sakai, Martin Caidin and Fred Saito. Hellcat fighter 14:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
The reference to the book Samurai!, or at least the Martin Caidin-coauthored American publication of it as Sakai's autobiography is misleading. That book, as with many of Caidin's works, is full of inaccuracies--enough so that using it as a documentary reference for this page is perhaps questionable. A better source, and one which is already listed as a reference, is Winged Samurai by Henry Sakaida (the portion relevant to the SBD-TBF debate was coauthored with John Lundstrom). Sakaida's book makes clear that Sakai's intended targets were SBDs from VB-6 (it is also worth noting that in his introduction to the book, Sakai even mentions one of the VB-6 SBD gunners, Harold Jones, whom he later befriended; Jones himself was uncertain how much damage he had done to Sakai's plane, as every SBD gunner that could do so was firing at him). Published in 1985, this is still the more recent scholarship, and I would evaulate Sakaida and Lundstrom as more valid sources than Caidin, particularly since unlike Caidin, Sakaida interviewed Sakai in person. Mdyank77 ( talk) 01:10, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I should add, in terms of the recency of the scholarship, that although the reference list puts the publication date of Samurai! as 1985, the American edition was in fact first published in 1957. There have been many subsequent editions, but to my knowledge the content has never changed. I'm not saying that the whole book is rubbish--it's actually still in print by the U.S. Naval Institute--but it does contain a concerning number of historical inaccuracies and is not therefore a good stand-alone source; of course, as an autobiography it is questionable whether it ever should have been considered s stand-alone source in this instance regardless of the known flaws. Mdyank77 ( talk) 04:24, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I just watched the PBS series "Secrets of the Dead" episode on the "Pug" incident. More detail are included in Pug Southerland's article. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_dogfight/index.html
Details included in the episode include the following:
The American attack on Guadalcanal was surprising and the nearest fighters that could reach the island were those in Rabaul. The island was at the limits of the Zero's range. Important equipment was removed to make the aircraft lighter, including the radio. Mounted with external fuel tanks, Sakai and his fellow pilots few four and a half hours to Guadalcanal and dumped their external fuel tanks before engaging the American pilots. Sakai commented on how there had to be 70 ships and how surprised he was to see that many ships below. He described looking down and seeing two Japanese fighters attempting to kill the Wildcat piloted by "Pug" Southerland. He was impressed by Pug's skill, noting that he should have been easily shot down. He engaged Southerland. Sakai's guns hit Southerland's Wildcat numerous times, but the more heavily armoured fighter absorbed the impact. Southerland was quoted as hearing many bullets hit the armoured plate directly behind his seat. At one point, Southerland used a maneuver in which he slowed and forced Sakai to pass him in order to gain the advantage, but did not fire when he had the opportunity to shoot Sakai down. Sakai was quoted as believing he had made a fatal mistake and was about to be shot down. The episode focused, among other things, on why Pug did not fire. It was ultimately determined that his guns were most likely damaged from earlier encounters and would not fire. Sakai managed to slow alongside the Wildcat and saw Southerland, bloodied and injured. He returned to a position behind Southerland, and, according to him, decided to avoid shooting at the cockpit, and shot at the plane's engine with his 20mm canon (a fact supported by the findings in the engine wreckage in the episode).
After looking for more planes, and not finding any, he saw several dots in the distance that he mistook for Wildcats (I don't recall which of the above mentioned bombers the episode said he encountered, but the article above says 30 caliber bullet), but he was shot at by the rear-facing gunner of that bomber. The bullet that hit him (at least the one discussed) was said to have gone through his windscreen, which slowed the bullet enough to prevent it from killing him. As it was, it passed through his head on his right side, through his brain, and out the back of his head. He lost the sight in his left eye, and also could not move the left side of his body. Thinking he was about to die, he looked for an American ship to kamakaze into, to die like a samurai. However, he found none and after some setbacks (some dives, spins, and whatnot), he managed to make the 5 hour return flight with only a compass and other basic instruments, almost crashing when he landed, but surviving.
I hope this helps the detail in the article regarding one of Sakai's bestknown dogfights TheHYPO 06:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I have a problem with the assertion that Sakai's shooting down of Colin P. Kelly's B-17C 40-2045 on 10 December 1941 was the "first" Fortress shot down in the Pacific war. B-17C 40-2074 of the 38th Reconnaissance Squadron, piloted by Capt. Raymond T. Swenson, was attacked by Zero fighters while on approach to Hickam Field on 7 December which set his magnesium flares alight. The hard landing broke the burning airframe in half aft the wing and it was written off. I would say that 40-2074 was the first Fort shot down. (Salecker, Fortress Against the Sun, page 17-18, 2001.) Mark Sublette 20:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Mark Sublette Mark Sublette 20:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
As per B-Class tags it needs appropriate citations. i think all major points could be cited but it could do with some more citations. These need to follow the correct Wikipedia:Citation templates and conform to WP:CITE which they do not at the moment. Woodym555 20:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
How many kills did he have? It's not mentioned anywhere I can find in the article. 69.86.232.64 ( talk) 21:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
In exchanging of total colaboration, during Cold War, "Uncle Sam" forgot all crimes of Emperor Hirohito.A brazilian general Aurélio de Lira Tavares told decades ago:Military means obediency.This great japanese patriot told the true:japanese military, just were followig Hirohito's orders, during World War II.Saburo Sakai was a great ace and a great man. Agre22 ( talk) 15:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)agre22
I don't think anyone was attacking Mr. Sakai... -Someone not logged in his name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.130.104 ( talk) 17:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
The following was added by an IP on Dec 17, 2010, with little regard to integration to the existing text:
Additonal Combat: My quest began sometime shortly after World War II. I was a young boy (probably around 10 or 11) when my grandfather told me the story of how my father, Lt Colonel Francis R. Stevens, had been killed in the skies over New Guinea early in the War. Years later, • A series of pictures of my father’s plane being shot down (the very photos that had been the object of my quest). • A picture of the man who had piloted the Japanese Zero that had fired the fatal bullets, the famous air ace, Saburo Sakai. • A group photo of Sakai and the other pilots in his fighter squadron, taken just seconds before the siren sounded announcing the impending arrival of the flight of B-26’s, which included the “Wabash Cannonball,” my Dad’s airplane. • A letter written by Sakai, recounting in considerable detail the events that unfolded in the short time between the taking of this last photo and my father’s plane crashing into the waters off Lae, in northern New Guinea - to include a second-by-second description of how he had attacked the “Wabash Cannonball” and shot it down.
It was, as you can imagine, quite an emotional moment for me.
I was able to add one anecdote of interest to Caidin and Hymoff, the story I have seen in print several times since, of how Dad wound up on the plane that Lyndon Johnson was supposed to ride on that fateful mission. What happened was that Johnson had originally gotten on the “Wabash Cannonball,” but had forgotten to take his camera with him. While he was retrieving his camera, Dad, unaware that Johnson had designs on sitting there, climbed into the seat that his friend had recently vacated. When Johnson returned to claim his place, Dad, in a lighthearted manner, told him that he would just have to find himself another airplane to ride that day. As fate would have it, the plane that Johnson wound up on developed engine trouble and never made it to the target, while the “Wabash Cannonball” was not to return from the mission. And the rest, as they say, is history.
From: My Father and I and Saburo Sakai Colonel Francis R. Stevens, Jr., USA-Retired http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/cc/stevens.html
HarryZilber ( talk) 05:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
At what point does a single new reference book justify a complete revision of a Wikipedia article?
Reading through this article as recently edited, it looks like a hack job on the subject, with each entry individually disputed; i.e., "Sakai said:" followed by the entry, and followed by a refutation of his statement. In no other article do I see that kind of formatting. If there is a controversy over the history of this man, then it needs to be addressed in a separate section.
Additionally, the alleged Ponzi scheme issue needs to be discussed if it is to be included. This is a potentially libelous issue, controversial, and unverified in an english souce.
Finally, can the english version of this entry be completely changed by someone's translation of a foreign text? I know there is a larger world out there, but there are plenty of english sources for material on this man, and completely rewriting it based on an untranslated work seems poor precedent. ScrapIronIV ( talk) 14:37, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
There is no problem with a refutation of a pilot's claims; however, the article can not be written in such a way as to paint the subject as a liar - which is precisely what the "Sakai said:... BUT" format does. Additionally, it is poor english.
What is being claimed as "Official record" is an unverifiable analysis of incomplete records as the final arbiter. As that new data is at odds with over 60 years of historical analysis and personal testimony, it must be considered but can not be considered the final and perfect source. As it was customary in the IJN to award credit to the unit, and not the individual pilot, such records are by default suspect when it comes to final tallies.
I have examined the pages of other Japanese pilots, and this one has been singled out to refute every claim made by the subject. Reading this, it appears that someone has an axe to grind with the subject, and waited until Sakai's passing to avoid addressing them while he was still alive. I am certain that this is not the case, but it is the impression that is left with the reader.
I will (again) attempt to modify this to an acceptable form, and if it is reverted again I will contact an Admin. The history shown on this page is one of constant reversions indicative of an edit war trying to force on specific view meant to cast a negative view on the the character of Sakai. ScrapIronIV ( talk) 15:26, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
After a recent review of the article, there are multiple issues, not the least being a lack of reliable sources. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 22:29, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
I think the consideration for the use of reliable sources is mainly Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Cost. Whether it's a English source or not doesn't matter on Wikipedia. The users must not reject sources just because they are hard or costly to access. But the translators are bound to provide a quotation of relevant portions of the original source or details. The source is the autobiography Sakai wrote by his native language, different quality from Samurai!. I think the contentious issue is the format of the gap between Samurai! and Japanese autobiographies. Please let me know if there are the revision required by Wikipedia rules or your doubts. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/FAQ-- Sicmn ( talk) 09:48, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
This type of situation has occurred before especially when it involved the use of non-English sources that are often very difficult to analyze as to WP:Reliable Source. My suggestion is to create a "sandbox" edition of the revisions that are being proposed, based on unique or difficult to obtain reference sources. The alternative is to utilize the talk page to "test" proposed revisions. These actions may preclude a constant challenge of the new material. As you may not be aware, one of the Wiki dictoms is "B-R-D" which stands for "Bold- Reverse- Debate" which is now what needs to happen here. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 16:37, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
One other aspect of dealing with controversial subjects or topics is to create either a sub-section or even a "connected" or "daughter" article that explores or develops this topic in greater detail and fills into the WP:Undue aspect of the Wikipedia format. See< http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/08/world/saburo-sakai-is-dead-at-84-war-pilot-embraced-foes.html> for a carefully written and neutral statement on the controversial aspects of Sakai's life. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 16:43, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
This article needs to improve that it promote Samurai's viewpoints and reject Japanese autobiographies differing greatly from Samurai. "Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another."(See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), "Do not reject sources just because they are hard or costly to access."(See Wikipedia:Verifiability), "Verifiable sources may have technical or personal restrictions (written in languages other than English, on websites that require a certain software, available on a type of media that requires the reader to have a certain type of technological appliance to access it)"(See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Cost)Unfortunately, users are deprived of the chance to get a lot of knowledge by the view of a specific user. My suggestion is to include both arguments in the article. Japanese autobiographies are the important sources Sakai wrote in his native language.
According to Japanese autobiography, His father was born as the third son of a wealthy farmer. As was often the case in Japan, the second, third son of farmers were not given their father's wealth. When Saburō Sakai was 5, his family left the head family because of the dissatisfaction. Therefore his family was forced to take a poor living. Saburō Sakai was born as the second, his given name from his grandfather's name "勝三郎 katsusaburō". See: Saburō Sakai Kusen Kiroku Volume 1, pp. 34-35. Original source; "私の父は, 村でも大きな農家の三男として生まれたが, 農家の次男, 三男に生まれた男の運命は, 今も昔もさして変わらず, 私たち兄弟が生まれても財産分けをしてくれない長兄のやりかたに見切りをつけて, 私たちの一家は, 夜逃げ同様で生家を出たらしい。私が五歳の時であった。私たち一家は, 家出してももちろん本家から財産を分けてもらえなかった。一家はたちまち生活に窮した。おもしろいことに, 私は次男であるが, 名前は三郎である。次男なのに三郎, へんだなと思って母に問いただしたら, 祖父の名の勝三郎から三郎の二字をもらったという。" When his father died, leaving his mother alone to raise six children. See: Saburō Sakai Kusen Kiroku Volume 1,pp. 37-38. Original source;"私が小学校六年生の秋のことであった。父はちょっとした風邪がもとで, 母と私たち六人の兄弟妹を残して, ぽっくりと死んでしまった。"-- Sicmn ( talk) 09:33, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
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So we're not going to mention Saburō's post-war investigation to find the crew of a Lockheed Hudson he shot down and his 1997 recommendation to the Australian government for said aircrew to be awarded commendations for their valour and bravery? I mean, the way this article reads, you'd be forgiven in thinking there were no other allied belligerents in the Pacific Theatre other than the US. His efforts were well known in Australia through the late 90s, early noughties.
(Episode available from ABC Australia, transcript here: https://www.abc.net.au/austory/enemy-lines-july-1,-2002/10447776) ( 14.2.97.241 ( talk) 02:52, 29 March 2021 (UTC))
Why is the whole last paragraph at the bottom of the "Southeast Asia" section retelling a false story as if it is true even after saying it is false? I feel as any paragraph starting with "A myth which has been perpetuated over time, but has been declared as a product of the imagination..." has no place in an otherwise historical retelling and should be deleted. MG George H Thomas ( talk) 12:26, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
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This article contains a translation of 坂井三郎 from ja.wikipedia. |
I'd like to see more info on the "kōdachi" cited source. Perhaps a literature number or the title in Kanji so it can be found. When trying to follow that source, it was unclear as specifically to which title it is referring. Perhaps including the Author or is kōdachi the author? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.201.39.74 ( talk) 19:22, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
In "Zero Fighters of Our Grandfathers"(pp.338-346.), "Sakai participated in Tenka Ikka no Kai ("the biggest pyramid scheme in history."). Most of his junior pilots lost their property because of Sakai. And Sakai shed bad rumors of his former boss that warned him after the boss died. Therefore, Sakai was hated by his former comrades." Sakai has also confessed it in an interview by the author "kōdachi". What is the source that Sakai never was a part of a Pyramid scheme? If 66.58.141.104 thinks it should not be posted because it is a disgrace for Sakai,I am okay with that.-- Sicmn ( talk) 05:27, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
There never needs to be a source that someone did not do something. Actions are sourced; proof is required to verify actions. It is incumbent on the editor to provide verifiable sources for new information. That would be akin to me demanding that you cite a source proving that Sakai never danced on the head of a pin...
ScrapIronIV (
talk)
15:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Move temporarily. Wait more detailed information of Original Text for translation.
Sakai participated in Tenka Ikka no Kai ("the biggest pyramid scheme in history."). Sakai was accused of soliciting his junior pilots most and that they lost property because of Sakai. Sakai and his story were used an advertisement for Tenka Ikka no Kai, and he is credited with making money from the scheme. It is also claimed that Sakai spread rumors about of his former boss, and that he was not liked by his former comrades.See: Zero Fighters of Our Grandfathers, pp.338-344. Sakai was disliked by junior pilots because of his preaching and violence. Shoichi Sugita, a fellow ace, also called him "a liar".See: Zero Fighters of Our Grandfathers, pp.329-332. Four former Japanese Navy pilots attended Sakai's funeral.See: Zero Fighters of Our Grandfathers, pp.345-346. -- Destinjon ( talk) 12:06, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
According to "Samurai", Sakai's account of his war years, he was injured when he approched a flight of TBF Avenger torpedo bombers, not SBD's. He thought they were Wildcat fighters (the aircraft look similar at a distance). He specifically mentions the fact that they had belly guns (which the SBD did not have). In addition, he refers to the pieces of .50 cal ammo that were removed from his wounds, and the SBD rear guns were .30 cal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.204.81.54 ( talk) 20:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC).
I agree with the person above. It is also mentioned in "Samurai!" by Saburo Sakai, Martin Caidin and Fred Saito. Hellcat fighter 14:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
The reference to the book Samurai!, or at least the Martin Caidin-coauthored American publication of it as Sakai's autobiography is misleading. That book, as with many of Caidin's works, is full of inaccuracies--enough so that using it as a documentary reference for this page is perhaps questionable. A better source, and one which is already listed as a reference, is Winged Samurai by Henry Sakaida (the portion relevant to the SBD-TBF debate was coauthored with John Lundstrom). Sakaida's book makes clear that Sakai's intended targets were SBDs from VB-6 (it is also worth noting that in his introduction to the book, Sakai even mentions one of the VB-6 SBD gunners, Harold Jones, whom he later befriended; Jones himself was uncertain how much damage he had done to Sakai's plane, as every SBD gunner that could do so was firing at him). Published in 1985, this is still the more recent scholarship, and I would evaulate Sakaida and Lundstrom as more valid sources than Caidin, particularly since unlike Caidin, Sakaida interviewed Sakai in person. Mdyank77 ( talk) 01:10, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I should add, in terms of the recency of the scholarship, that although the reference list puts the publication date of Samurai! as 1985, the American edition was in fact first published in 1957. There have been many subsequent editions, but to my knowledge the content has never changed. I'm not saying that the whole book is rubbish--it's actually still in print by the U.S. Naval Institute--but it does contain a concerning number of historical inaccuracies and is not therefore a good stand-alone source; of course, as an autobiography it is questionable whether it ever should have been considered s stand-alone source in this instance regardless of the known flaws. Mdyank77 ( talk) 04:24, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I just watched the PBS series "Secrets of the Dead" episode on the "Pug" incident. More detail are included in Pug Southerland's article. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_dogfight/index.html
Details included in the episode include the following:
The American attack on Guadalcanal was surprising and the nearest fighters that could reach the island were those in Rabaul. The island was at the limits of the Zero's range. Important equipment was removed to make the aircraft lighter, including the radio. Mounted with external fuel tanks, Sakai and his fellow pilots few four and a half hours to Guadalcanal and dumped their external fuel tanks before engaging the American pilots. Sakai commented on how there had to be 70 ships and how surprised he was to see that many ships below. He described looking down and seeing two Japanese fighters attempting to kill the Wildcat piloted by "Pug" Southerland. He was impressed by Pug's skill, noting that he should have been easily shot down. He engaged Southerland. Sakai's guns hit Southerland's Wildcat numerous times, but the more heavily armoured fighter absorbed the impact. Southerland was quoted as hearing many bullets hit the armoured plate directly behind his seat. At one point, Southerland used a maneuver in which he slowed and forced Sakai to pass him in order to gain the advantage, but did not fire when he had the opportunity to shoot Sakai down. Sakai was quoted as believing he had made a fatal mistake and was about to be shot down. The episode focused, among other things, on why Pug did not fire. It was ultimately determined that his guns were most likely damaged from earlier encounters and would not fire. Sakai managed to slow alongside the Wildcat and saw Southerland, bloodied and injured. He returned to a position behind Southerland, and, according to him, decided to avoid shooting at the cockpit, and shot at the plane's engine with his 20mm canon (a fact supported by the findings in the engine wreckage in the episode).
After looking for more planes, and not finding any, he saw several dots in the distance that he mistook for Wildcats (I don't recall which of the above mentioned bombers the episode said he encountered, but the article above says 30 caliber bullet), but he was shot at by the rear-facing gunner of that bomber. The bullet that hit him (at least the one discussed) was said to have gone through his windscreen, which slowed the bullet enough to prevent it from killing him. As it was, it passed through his head on his right side, through his brain, and out the back of his head. He lost the sight in his left eye, and also could not move the left side of his body. Thinking he was about to die, he looked for an American ship to kamakaze into, to die like a samurai. However, he found none and after some setbacks (some dives, spins, and whatnot), he managed to make the 5 hour return flight with only a compass and other basic instruments, almost crashing when he landed, but surviving.
I hope this helps the detail in the article regarding one of Sakai's bestknown dogfights TheHYPO 06:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I have a problem with the assertion that Sakai's shooting down of Colin P. Kelly's B-17C 40-2045 on 10 December 1941 was the "first" Fortress shot down in the Pacific war. B-17C 40-2074 of the 38th Reconnaissance Squadron, piloted by Capt. Raymond T. Swenson, was attacked by Zero fighters while on approach to Hickam Field on 7 December which set his magnesium flares alight. The hard landing broke the burning airframe in half aft the wing and it was written off. I would say that 40-2074 was the first Fort shot down. (Salecker, Fortress Against the Sun, page 17-18, 2001.) Mark Sublette 20:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Mark Sublette Mark Sublette 20:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
As per B-Class tags it needs appropriate citations. i think all major points could be cited but it could do with some more citations. These need to follow the correct Wikipedia:Citation templates and conform to WP:CITE which they do not at the moment. Woodym555 20:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
How many kills did he have? It's not mentioned anywhere I can find in the article. 69.86.232.64 ( talk) 21:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
In exchanging of total colaboration, during Cold War, "Uncle Sam" forgot all crimes of Emperor Hirohito.A brazilian general Aurélio de Lira Tavares told decades ago:Military means obediency.This great japanese patriot told the true:japanese military, just were followig Hirohito's orders, during World War II.Saburo Sakai was a great ace and a great man. Agre22 ( talk) 15:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)agre22
I don't think anyone was attacking Mr. Sakai... -Someone not logged in his name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.130.104 ( talk) 17:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
The following was added by an IP on Dec 17, 2010, with little regard to integration to the existing text:
Additonal Combat: My quest began sometime shortly after World War II. I was a young boy (probably around 10 or 11) when my grandfather told me the story of how my father, Lt Colonel Francis R. Stevens, had been killed in the skies over New Guinea early in the War. Years later, • A series of pictures of my father’s plane being shot down (the very photos that had been the object of my quest). • A picture of the man who had piloted the Japanese Zero that had fired the fatal bullets, the famous air ace, Saburo Sakai. • A group photo of Sakai and the other pilots in his fighter squadron, taken just seconds before the siren sounded announcing the impending arrival of the flight of B-26’s, which included the “Wabash Cannonball,” my Dad’s airplane. • A letter written by Sakai, recounting in considerable detail the events that unfolded in the short time between the taking of this last photo and my father’s plane crashing into the waters off Lae, in northern New Guinea - to include a second-by-second description of how he had attacked the “Wabash Cannonball” and shot it down.
It was, as you can imagine, quite an emotional moment for me.
I was able to add one anecdote of interest to Caidin and Hymoff, the story I have seen in print several times since, of how Dad wound up on the plane that Lyndon Johnson was supposed to ride on that fateful mission. What happened was that Johnson had originally gotten on the “Wabash Cannonball,” but had forgotten to take his camera with him. While he was retrieving his camera, Dad, unaware that Johnson had designs on sitting there, climbed into the seat that his friend had recently vacated. When Johnson returned to claim his place, Dad, in a lighthearted manner, told him that he would just have to find himself another airplane to ride that day. As fate would have it, the plane that Johnson wound up on developed engine trouble and never made it to the target, while the “Wabash Cannonball” was not to return from the mission. And the rest, as they say, is history.
From: My Father and I and Saburo Sakai Colonel Francis R. Stevens, Jr., USA-Retired http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/cc/stevens.html
HarryZilber ( talk) 05:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
At what point does a single new reference book justify a complete revision of a Wikipedia article?
Reading through this article as recently edited, it looks like a hack job on the subject, with each entry individually disputed; i.e., "Sakai said:" followed by the entry, and followed by a refutation of his statement. In no other article do I see that kind of formatting. If there is a controversy over the history of this man, then it needs to be addressed in a separate section.
Additionally, the alleged Ponzi scheme issue needs to be discussed if it is to be included. This is a potentially libelous issue, controversial, and unverified in an english souce.
Finally, can the english version of this entry be completely changed by someone's translation of a foreign text? I know there is a larger world out there, but there are plenty of english sources for material on this man, and completely rewriting it based on an untranslated work seems poor precedent. ScrapIronIV ( talk) 14:37, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
There is no problem with a refutation of a pilot's claims; however, the article can not be written in such a way as to paint the subject as a liar - which is precisely what the "Sakai said:... BUT" format does. Additionally, it is poor english.
What is being claimed as "Official record" is an unverifiable analysis of incomplete records as the final arbiter. As that new data is at odds with over 60 years of historical analysis and personal testimony, it must be considered but can not be considered the final and perfect source. As it was customary in the IJN to award credit to the unit, and not the individual pilot, such records are by default suspect when it comes to final tallies.
I have examined the pages of other Japanese pilots, and this one has been singled out to refute every claim made by the subject. Reading this, it appears that someone has an axe to grind with the subject, and waited until Sakai's passing to avoid addressing them while he was still alive. I am certain that this is not the case, but it is the impression that is left with the reader.
I will (again) attempt to modify this to an acceptable form, and if it is reverted again I will contact an Admin. The history shown on this page is one of constant reversions indicative of an edit war trying to force on specific view meant to cast a negative view on the the character of Sakai. ScrapIronIV ( talk) 15:26, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
After a recent review of the article, there are multiple issues, not the least being a lack of reliable sources. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 22:29, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
I think the consideration for the use of reliable sources is mainly Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Cost. Whether it's a English source or not doesn't matter on Wikipedia. The users must not reject sources just because they are hard or costly to access. But the translators are bound to provide a quotation of relevant portions of the original source or details. The source is the autobiography Sakai wrote by his native language, different quality from Samurai!. I think the contentious issue is the format of the gap between Samurai! and Japanese autobiographies. Please let me know if there are the revision required by Wikipedia rules or your doubts. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/FAQ-- Sicmn ( talk) 09:48, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
This type of situation has occurred before especially when it involved the use of non-English sources that are often very difficult to analyze as to WP:Reliable Source. My suggestion is to create a "sandbox" edition of the revisions that are being proposed, based on unique or difficult to obtain reference sources. The alternative is to utilize the talk page to "test" proposed revisions. These actions may preclude a constant challenge of the new material. As you may not be aware, one of the Wiki dictoms is "B-R-D" which stands for "Bold- Reverse- Debate" which is now what needs to happen here. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 16:37, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
One other aspect of dealing with controversial subjects or topics is to create either a sub-section or even a "connected" or "daughter" article that explores or develops this topic in greater detail and fills into the WP:Undue aspect of the Wikipedia format. See< http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/08/world/saburo-sakai-is-dead-at-84-war-pilot-embraced-foes.html> for a carefully written and neutral statement on the controversial aspects of Sakai's life. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 16:43, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
This article needs to improve that it promote Samurai's viewpoints and reject Japanese autobiographies differing greatly from Samurai. "Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another."(See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), "Do not reject sources just because they are hard or costly to access."(See Wikipedia:Verifiability), "Verifiable sources may have technical or personal restrictions (written in languages other than English, on websites that require a certain software, available on a type of media that requires the reader to have a certain type of technological appliance to access it)"(See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Cost)Unfortunately, users are deprived of the chance to get a lot of knowledge by the view of a specific user. My suggestion is to include both arguments in the article. Japanese autobiographies are the important sources Sakai wrote in his native language.
According to Japanese autobiography, His father was born as the third son of a wealthy farmer. As was often the case in Japan, the second, third son of farmers were not given their father's wealth. When Saburō Sakai was 5, his family left the head family because of the dissatisfaction. Therefore his family was forced to take a poor living. Saburō Sakai was born as the second, his given name from his grandfather's name "勝三郎 katsusaburō". See: Saburō Sakai Kusen Kiroku Volume 1, pp. 34-35. Original source; "私の父は, 村でも大きな農家の三男として生まれたが, 農家の次男, 三男に生まれた男の運命は, 今も昔もさして変わらず, 私たち兄弟が生まれても財産分けをしてくれない長兄のやりかたに見切りをつけて, 私たちの一家は, 夜逃げ同様で生家を出たらしい。私が五歳の時であった。私たち一家は, 家出してももちろん本家から財産を分けてもらえなかった。一家はたちまち生活に窮した。おもしろいことに, 私は次男であるが, 名前は三郎である。次男なのに三郎, へんだなと思って母に問いただしたら, 祖父の名の勝三郎から三郎の二字をもらったという。" When his father died, leaving his mother alone to raise six children. See: Saburō Sakai Kusen Kiroku Volume 1,pp. 37-38. Original source;"私が小学校六年生の秋のことであった。父はちょっとした風邪がもとで, 母と私たち六人の兄弟妹を残して, ぽっくりと死んでしまった。"-- Sicmn ( talk) 09:33, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
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So we're not going to mention Saburō's post-war investigation to find the crew of a Lockheed Hudson he shot down and his 1997 recommendation to the Australian government for said aircrew to be awarded commendations for their valour and bravery? I mean, the way this article reads, you'd be forgiven in thinking there were no other allied belligerents in the Pacific Theatre other than the US. His efforts were well known in Australia through the late 90s, early noughties.
(Episode available from ABC Australia, transcript here: https://www.abc.net.au/austory/enemy-lines-july-1,-2002/10447776) ( 14.2.97.241 ( talk) 02:52, 29 March 2021 (UTC))
Why is the whole last paragraph at the bottom of the "Southeast Asia" section retelling a false story as if it is true even after saying it is false? I feel as any paragraph starting with "A myth which has been perpetuated over time, but has been declared as a product of the imagination..." has no place in an otherwise historical retelling and should be deleted. MG George H Thomas ( talk) 12:26, 17 November 2022 (UTC)