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There is a monument, picture is included on this very page, that is stating there were 7000 victims! I would suggest to change 5000 into 7000 and also add the remark that files on this drama will be closed by UK government till 2045. You can't deny 2000 persons unless you have proof that what was written on the monument was entirely wrong. Miss Lizzy ( talk) 23:52, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
This bit doesn't make sense. If this is meant to refer to an RAF squadron, then it should be No. 193 Squadron RAF. And is an article from China Daily, through the Chinese state propaganda agency, really a credible source? 195.173.13.125 ( talk) 12:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Source : "The Typhoon's Last Storm," by Paris-based US film maker Lawrence Bond, includes shocking testimony by rare survivors recounting how Royal Air Force planes returned time and again to strafe swimmers who survived the initial attacks.
3 instead of 8 ? No, there were the No. 198 Squadron and the No. 193 Squadron, based in Ahlhorn (Großenkneten), led by Squadron Leader Donald Murray Taylor.
" Donald Murray Taylor joined the RAF July 1937. Posted to 11 FTS, Wittering Sept.18 and was on staff at 5 Armament Training Station at Penrhos from May 7, 1938. In early 1940 he went to 64 Sq. at Church Fenton. Over Dunkirk on May 31, 1940 he destroyed a Bf 109 and on July 1st he shared in the destruction of a Do 17 and on the 10th damaged a Bf110. He was shot down in a surprise attack on July 17 by Lieutenant Wick of 1/JG2 whilst on Convoy Patrol. He was wounded when he crashed at Hempstead Lane, Hallsham, in Spitfire P9507. He was taken to Eastbourne Hospital. He commanded 195 Sq. from Nov.16, 1942 until Jan.1944 and then 197 Sq. from Jan-.July 1944 and was awarded the DFC (5.9.44) and later commanded 193 Sq. from April 1945 until disbanded on August 31, 1945. "
( 86.64.182.240 ( talk) 15:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC))
Dear anonymous contributor who repeats to change the external links:
Please don't change the URLs to [[http://www.something.com]], as those will display as [[1]] - which is very ugly. Either leave them without any brackets like they are now, or change them like this with a description on what to find at the link: [http://www.something.com Website showing something]. See also our Manual of style.
Every time you change it to the ugly looking style it will be reverted to the previous one anyway, so there is no point to continue to do that. Thank you. andy 13:31, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Someone has also removed the text stating why the prisoners were actually onboard the ships in the first place. They weren't going on a pleasure cruise - the ships were to be taken out into the middle of the Bay of Lübeck and then scuttled with the prisoners locked below decks so as to drown them. This was stated at the war crimes trial of the men responsible and the officer in charge (Max Pauly, ex-Commandant of Neuengamme) along with several others, was hanged. 82.111.65.142 13:35, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
You don't need to write 'with the imprisoned prisoners below', that is the one job of a prisoner, and by god they will be captive.
Günther Schwarberg states in his book "Angriffsziel Cap Arcona" (which is, incidentally, listed as one of the sources for this article) that 'Cap Arcona' had effectively been handed back to the Hamburg-Süd line, after the ship's engine systems had been ruined during her last trip as a refugee-ship. She was then confiscated again, this time by the SS, and the prisoners were brought aboard. The involvement of Graf Bernadotte must, under these circumstances, be seen as pure whitewash: She would not have been able to make any crossing under her own steam. On the other hand, it seems highly probable that she was indeed intended to be sunk with the prisoners aboard; the camps had in fact been dissolved primarily for the purpose of disposing of witnesses- many of whom perished by being marched across Germany, with little food or water. Towing her further out to sea and opening the seacocks would have been quite possible, and would be very much in tune with the usual efficiency of the SS in murdering people. Towing her all the way to Sweden would have been a different thing altogether. However- if she was intended to be scuttled, she would not have been towed to the middle of the Bay of Lübeck, but further out altogether. As for the British military authorities- I wouldn't be able to say what exactly they did or did not know; but there are some good reasons to assume that they did know quite a few things. They were able to deciphre radio-messages coded with one particular model of the 'Enigma'-coding-machine to the point were they could translate 75 % of the intercepted messages within 15 minutes after intercdeption, and the remaining 25 % within a few hours. That particular 'Enigma'-model had originally been in use with the Luftwaffe, but had been replaced by a newer model; the model in question (Enigma-D, I believe) was then primarily used by the SS, the German postal service, and the Reichsbahn.
(Source: "Entschied Ultra den Krieg?", 1981, ISBN 3-8033-0314-1; Original version of this book: "Ultra goes to war- the secret story" by Ronald Lewin, Hutchinson / London , 1978)
The Wehrmacht was extremely distrusting as far as Radio-communications were concerned; they preferred cable-links such as Telephone and Telegraph for their communications. The result was that the Telephone-system within Germany was constantly overloaded; subsequently the Reichsbahn- charged with organising rail-transportation of troops and materials not only within Germany, but also throughout the occupied territories- had to rely increasingly on using Radio-transmitters for their own communications. These communications were coded with the very Enigma-codes the British were able to de-code as described above. That means they were able to see exactly when a train with prisoners was to leave, what route it would take and where it was destined: It was the Reichsbahn who were responsible for most of the prisoner-transports, including those destined for the death-camps. Many of the 'Cap Arcona'- prisoners were not transported by train, but some of them were- and, as I said, the SS was using the same Enigma-machines at any rate. That means the British *must* have known- or so logic would dictate. 83.71.24.140 ( talk) 22:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I have trouble with the first paragraph of the Sinking section. <<On April 26, 1945, she was loaded with prisoners from the Neuengamme concentration camp near Hamburg and, together with two smaller ships, Thielbek and Athen, was brought into the Bay of Lübeck.>> So far, so good. But the next sentence is rather unclear, and needs clarification: <<During these days, informed by British Intelligence, Count Folke Bernadotte, vice-president of the Red Cross, gained much goodwill leading a rescue operation transporting west European deportees to hospitals in Sweden, of whom some were French-speakers transported aboard the Cap Arcona.>> What precisely is being meant? Yes, Bernadotte has goodwill via the White Buses operation, ok. Is the point & crux of the matter that "British intelligence" (hopefully not an oxymoron at the time) had concrete knowledge about who was on board the three ships (and nevertheless went on to the sinking & killing of 7,000 people)?
From the French Web site : http://www.michel-hollard.com/ "Michel Hollard : En février 1944, il est arrêté par la Gestapo à Paris en compagnie de deux de ses subordonnés. Torturé, emprisonné à Fresnes et condamné à mort, il est déporté au camp de concentration de Neuengamme. Il est sauvé miraculeusement du naufrage du Cap Arcona, en baie de Lubeck, que l'ennemi sabordait intentionnellement. Ce sauvetage est dû au Prince Bernadotte qui, informé par l'Intelligence Britannique, envoya une vedette sur place et obtint le salut de quelques prisonniers de langue française." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Hollard
Quoting from the Sinking-paragraph: "After the first wave had attacked the ships, the Cap Arcona hoisted the white ensign without any effect." This is not confirmed and rather unlikely, especially concerning the Cap Arcona. Whether the Athen hoisted a white flag is at least questionable but also not confirmed. Where does this information come from? holsteiner 10:22, 29 January 2007
Sorry, I may be asking a question that is obvious to people with specialised knowledge, but why is the word 'Career' the title of the infobox? If it's intentional and appropriate, could it be wikilinked to the nautical definition so the uninitiated can understand why it's used? Anchoress 01:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is incredibly hard to read. Having read it twice, I'm still hazy. It is not made clear that this was a boat as part of an operation by Count Bernadotte rescuing concentration camp victims (is that correct? I'm not sure I even understand the article correctly). What does Hitler's suicide have to do with anything -- the sentence that mentions it doesn't make any sense? Was any justification at all given for the British action? The quote about "That's war" notwithstanding, surely some purpose was given?
This article needs some serious love, guys. I would try to help, but I don't know anything about the subject. 67.175.166.240 03:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. This page is awful and should not have been featured on the Wiki main page. ScubaSteve2k1 06:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)ScubaSteve2k1
This article does need serious cleanup. Look at this sentence from the article: "Photos of the burning ships; listed as Deutschland, and Thielbek, Cap Arcona, swimming survivors were taken on a reconnaissance mission over Bay of Lübeck by F-6 aircraft of the USAAF's 161st Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron around 5:00 PM, shortly after the attack." Can someone put the cleanup infobox on this article? Rstandefer 13:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I've just read this page through 3 times and I'm only JUST starting to understand what it's all about!
I'm going to have a go at re-writing it, but I don't know how good it will be, I just feel some of it needs to be re-worded a bit! Let me know how I get on!
LookingYourBest
21:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I've had a go at re-writing the first couple of paragraphs of 'sinking', I think it makes SLIGHTLY more sense now! Let me know what you think! LookingYourBest 08:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Great job. i made a couple of small changes for clarity, but the article is 100% better in my opinion. Rstandefer 14:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
This section:
Is perfectly fine in general (Something should be found to mention there was no obvious reason, but it should be backed up) but is poorly worded, reading like OR and the only ref is a commercial link. Anyone wanna fight for its continued existance or can we all agree to delete it until someone wants to acctually 'adopt' it and properly write it up? (or someone can do that tag that labels it as being possibly OR and poorly referenced, can't remember the blasted shortcuts) Narson 16:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
"I asked for more information but the RAF declined to give it to me on the grounds the investigation is still open - 55 years later," Bond said.
According to at least one of the references ( http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/star/history/00-03-07/f02-uk.html) the RAF understood that "the ships carried Nazi leaders and troops trying to flee crumbling Germany to make a last stand in Norway, then still in German hands." This conflicts with the article which speculates that the reason why the records have been sealed is "the war was effectively over and the destruction of these non-military targets was of no discernible strategic value."
Also, I think the records have been sealed under a British Government rule, not an RAF one. However, to be sure of this I would need to do some digging. Greenshed 20:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
"The RAF has sealed the records about these attacks until 2045.[8] This may be due to the fact that, by this time, the war was effectively over and the destruction of these non-military targets was of no discernible strategic value."
I think this needs to be changed. At first I thought this was a typo and that the records were actually sealed until 1945, when the war was effectively over. Then I realized that the records are - in fact - sealed until 2045. "by this time..." is referring to the time of the attacks, not the time of the unsealing.
How about: "The RAF has sealed the records about these attacks for 100 years, until 2045.[8] This may be due to the fact that, by the time of the attacks, the war was effectively over..."
Trigam41
18:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Or... I suppose you could delete the line altogether... sure.
I do think we should expand MoD to Ministry of Defense. We don't have ministries in America, and it might be nice to expand the abbreviation.
Trigam41
21:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Hindsight is always 20/20. If the war would have been effectively over, there would have been no necessity for germany to run ships across the Baltic Sea. Instead British intelligence and troops still had to be on the alert for counter-attacks and suicide missions. The sealing of the documents is probably due to the RAF’s obligation to protect their former personnel from prosecution for actions performed in the line of duty. As various pilots have come forward, the actual course of events isn't really a secret anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.117.38 ( talk) 09:57, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
I have contacted the MoD regarding the supposed "sealed files" and neither the MoD nor the National Archive can find any sealed records. Those files which do exist have been placed in the National Archive and are free to view.
Of particular interest is the War Office investigation by No 2 War Crimes Investigation Team, led by a Major Till, into events at the Neuengamme Concentration Camp. Prisoners from this camp were placed on the Cap Arcona by their German guards, and as a consequence Major Till and his team also examined the circumstances surrounding the sinking of this vessel. This report is held by The National Archive under the reference WO 309/1952.
Also on deposit in the National Archive are the Operational Record Books of 2 TAF, 83 Group and the squadrons involved. Details of the operation and the reasons for conducting it are in the files held in the National Archive.
Unless anyone can find conclusive evidence of "sealed files" then I will delete the references to them, since they are unsubstanciated rumours as far as I can tell.
-- J.StuartClarke 20:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
"I asked for more information but the RAF declined to give it to me on the grounds the investigation is still open - 55 years later," Bond said.
China Daily, 2000-03-07 .(
86.64.182.240
14:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC))
The present RAF, not this old report : See The 100-Year Secret: Britain's Hidden World War II Massacre. The Lyons Press, October 2004. Page 170, 171.( 86.64.182.240 08:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)).
This report (Major Till) has been accessible by the authors in 2003; the book speak about it several pages. The most interesting remains the RAF's Archives, legally accessible at most in 2045.( 86.64.182.240 09:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC))
The most interesting remains the RAF's Archives, legally accessible at most in 2045 : the other documents that are not in the Till's report.
Lawrence Bond
"Dear Mr XXXXXXXXXXX
While we are aware of that rumours persist of the existence of closed file or files relating to events on the 3 May 1944, neither the Ministry of Defence nor the National Archive can find any files on the subject of the sinking of the Cap Arcona, the Thielbeack and the Deutschland by aircraft from 83 Group on 3 May 1945 other than those which are already in the public domain. The files on the matter have been deposited in the National Archive at Kew in London and are listed in the catalogue of the National Archive which is available on the internet. If you are unable to visit the National Archive yourself I suggest that you contact the Search Department who, for a fee, will undertake research for you and send you photocopies of the relevant documentation.
The information contained in The National Archive is on open access to members of the public. Of particular interest is the War Office investigation by No 2 War Crimes Investigation Team, led by a Major Till, into events at the Neuengamme Concentration Camp. Prisoners from this camp were placed on the Cap Arcona by their German guards, and as a consequence Major Till and his team also examined the circumstances surrounding the sinking of this vessel. This report is held by The National Archive under the reference WO 309/1952. Also on deposit in the National Archive are the Operational Record Books of 2 TAF, 83 Group and the squadrons involved. Details of the operation and the reasons for conducting it are in the files held in the National Archive and, under Section 21 of the Freedom of Information Act, I would ask you to consult these documents.
Yours sincerely
XXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX Air Historical Branch(RAF)
If the information enclosed does not address your requirements or you wish to complain about any aspect of the handling of this request, then you should contact the member of the Air Historical Branch who has sent the reply in the first instance. Should you remain dissatisfied, then you may apply for an MOD internal review by contacting the Director of Information Exploitation, 6th Floor, MOD Main Building, Whitehall, London SW1A 2HB. If you are still unhappy following an internal review you may take your complaint to the Information Commissioner under the Provisions of Section 50 of the Freedom of Information Act. Please note that the Information Commissioner will not investigate your case until the MOD internal review process has been completed."
Either the MoD is lying or they really don't have anything. --
J.StuartClarke
13:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Appointment and answer in 2045.(Page 170, 171).(
86.64.182.240
13:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC))
These British laws do exist.
These laws (2045) are the laws of the page 171 ("The 100-Year Secret: Britain's Hidden World War II Massacre". The Lyons Press, October 2004).
62 years of investigation : "I requested these RAF files on the sinking of the Cap Arcona from the RAF in 2000 and received a response in writing saying THE EVENT WAS STILL UNDER INVESTIGATION and would not be released at that time." : grotesque !
The FOIA only came into force in January 2005. -- J.StuartClarke 15:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I've removed a couple of lines of conjecture from the article and added a citation tag for one of the sentences that claim to have documents proving the British Government knew it was at fault. Can't go throwing accusations like that around without backup! Lol! LookingYourBest 11:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to remove that reference, since the research was done prior to 2001 when the FOIA came into effect. I have shown above that the RAF have no files on the subject and all known files are in the public domain. Just because a man has written a book does not make him right. We must be selective of our sources, and carefully analyise all of them. -- J.StuartClarke ( talk) 21:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
This BS is stirred up nowadays by the same group of people who did it back in 1945 (you get the picture?). The attack was erroneous and not responsible for the majority of casualties. Most of the victims died because they were not assisted or even forcefully kept back from attempting to rescue themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.117.38 ( talk) 10:07, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
This is a untrue and loaded term, it needs to be replaced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.248.159.240 ( talk) 06:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Also what comes to mind from the strafing the shipwreck survivors in the water, on purpose, isnt that a war crime? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.248.159.240 ( talk) 07:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
From the Web site :
http://www1.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035//arcona.html —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.64.182.240 (
talk)
13:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"Provisional toilets were installed on the deck of the Thielbek and embarkation started on the 20th April. The Swedish Red Cross were present and all concentration camp prisoners except the Russian prisoners received a food parcel which, with the combination of malnutrician and thirst, caused terrible suffering. The water supplied from the ship's tank was totally insufficient. Twenty to thirty prisoners died daily and were removed by lorry. All prisoners, except the political prisoners, remained one or two days on board before being transferred to the Cap Arcona by the Athen. The SS personnel were gradually reduced and replaced by 55 to 60 year old territorial army members and marines. There was straw on deck for the holds there being no beds. There were large stocks of provisions under tarpaulin on deck but distribution was disorganized. The sick and the Russian prisoners received little. The latrines were inadequate. Buckets were lowered into the holds and raised when full. The stench was terrible. Gastroenteritis raged.
... Gehrig was to escort the prisoners to their deaths aboard the Cap Arcona. He ordered captain Nobmann of the Athen to take 2,300 prisoners and 280 SS guards on board and to ferry them to the Cap Arcona. Captain Nobmann initially refused but obeyed when threatened with being shot following a drumhead court martial. The SS and Kapos drove the prisoners on board with yells and blows. They had to climb down rope ladders into the deep holds of the ship. In the haste many prisoners fell and were seriously injured. There was hardly room to move in the dark, cold and damp holds. There were no toilets or water. After some hours the fully laden ship left the harbour for the Cap Arcona anchored off Neustadt. Captain Bertram refused to take the prisoners on board even after the SS came aboard. The Athen remained off Neustadt overnight and returned to Lübeck next morning, the 21st April, the prisoners having been given nothing to eat or drink.
... On the 27th April the Athen arrived in Neustadt with 2,500 prisoners from Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp who were transferred to the Cap Arcona. For three days the Athen journeyed to and fro between Lübeck harbour and the Cap Arcona. There were finally 6,500 prisoners on board and 600 SS guards. There was hardly anything to eat or drink and prisoners continued to die. A launch brought drinking water and took the dead back to Neustadt daily. The Russians received the worst treatment being locked in the lowest hold without fresh air, light or food. The number of dead grew ever larger. The Athen made its last journey to the Cap Arcona on the 30th April but this time to take prisoners off as the Cap Arcona was so over crowded that even the SS could no longer endure the starvation, stench and dead." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.64.182.240 ( talk) 13:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Not correct: "The loss of life on the Cap Arcona make it the third-worst maritime disaster in history," as there seems to be other ships that have gone down with as many or more.
Maritime disasters of the 20th and 21st centuries CNN 6 February 2006:
Also
-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 23:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Also these two already in the see also section but unsourced on this page
-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 23:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Source
Junyō Maru :
[5] —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.64.182.240 (
talk)
10:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
There's a huge amount of stuff in this article that is either not sourced or is sourced to sources of dubious reliability - personal websites and the like - or to unpublished sources (RAF reports etc). In addition, it concerns me that some of it may fall under Original Research - drawing non-trivial conclusions from the sources without any supporting source for those conclusions.
I suspect part of the reason is simply because much of this text was written before our requirements for citations became as rigorous, and the information can in fact be found within the linked published sources, but there are some things on here that seem a little unproven.
I'm also wondering whether this article should be split into one about the ship itself and one about the sinking and its circumstances - as it is the latter wholly dwarfs the former and the article is not really about the Cap Arcona itself very much at all.
Thoughts? Matthew Brown (Morven) ( T: C) 22:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia needs published sources. Has the Till Report ever been published? My impression from what I'm reading here that it hasn't been, and it's been only available through the National Archives. Matthew Brown (Morven) ( T: C) 19:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
This excerpt (from National Archives, since January 1 2005, see upper "Records Sealed") can be read in the Benjamin Jacobs and Eugene Pool's book, The 100-Year Secret: Britain's Hidden World War II Massacre. The Lyons Press, October 2004.
ISBN
1-59228-532-5.(
86.64.182.240 (
talk)
14:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)).
The Times - May 30, 1947 - Page 5
"AIRMEN IN GERMANY
BRITISH OCCUPATION FORCES IN TRAINING
CLOSE COOPERATION WITH THE ARMY
By Our Aeronautical Correspondent.
...
MOCK WAR ... There is a bombing range a mile or so from the shore, near where the German
" Strength through Joy " ships (??????)
, the Deutschland and the Cap Arcona,
WHICH WERE BEING USED AS ARMED TRANSPORTS,
were sunk a few days before the end of the war by rocket-firing Typhoons of the R.A.F. 2nd T.A.F. These vessels, rusting and half submerged, can still be seen lying upside down, and on closer inspection one can observe the gaping holes which testify to the deadly effect of rocket-projectiles..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.64.182.240 ( talk) 15:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
The section on the sinking suggests that the ship was sunk when the British government was aware that it was loaded with concentration camp survivors, and that the British government is to this day engaged in a continuing attempt to cover up the evidence. Very strong proof (lacking here) should be required before any such claim can be said to be objective. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 23:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I removed the phrasing there is some evidence british intelligence were aware of the prisoners and this may be why the records have been sealed. I have also re-phrased he two surrounding paragraphs where they contained similar inferences.
Reasons:
1) none of the sources cited in the article suggest this. Putting in statements with apparent citations that do not support the argument is not good practice.
2)The explaination used earlier of failure to pass on messages and warnings in time of war is a more sensible and supported reason for the attack.
3) Unrelated to anything cited in the article if anyone can suggest even a vaguely coherant reason why the RAF would deliberately as opposed to by tragic error bomb and kill 5,000 of their own allies civilians and POW's. As well as of course providing verifiable sources that back this up I'll be glad to discuss it. Kurtk60 ( talk) 00:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
1) From the Till report of June 1945: "From the facts and from the statement volunteered by the RAF Intelligence Officer, it appears that the primary responsibility for this great loss of life must fall on the British RAF personnel who failed to pass to the pilots concerned the message they received concerning the presence of KZ prisoners on board these ships".(
86.64.182.240 (
talk)
13:35, 24 December 2008 (UTC)).
Sorry I phrased my point 1 here poorly, apologies. Yes your spot on that a failure to pass on information was probably responsible. The reason for my edit is that the phrasing at several points in the article implied a deliberate attack on the prisoners. Rather than a tragic lack of communication in time of war. These two sentences I removed/re-phrased illustrate the point I hope.
"The attacking force stated that they were unaware that the ships were laden with prisoners. However, the facts appear otherwise. "
&
"The RAF reportedly thought that the ships carried escaping SS officers, but there is some evidence that British intelligence knew the truth, which may be the reason why the official records have been sealed until 2045"
I have no issue with mentioning that some elements of the RAF may not have told others about the prescence of prisoners onboard (which the Till report supports) by mistake infact it should definately be included. But the phrasing should not wander into suggesting anything more sinister? Kurtk60 ( talk) 18:15, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
I've just read a german article of NDR-online about the topic (www.kriegsende.ard.de) where they state that 4,500 prisoners of concentration-camps had been on the Cap Arcona. Of those only about 350 survived. While 80% (I don't know of how many) of the crew, SS, guards and the Captain Bertram saved themselves. 1 hour after the attack on the Cap Arcona the frighter Thielbeck was shot at, it took 20 min. to sink. Anyway, the Thielbeck carried 2,800 prisoners, of those only 50 survived. Most of the seamen including the Captain Jacobsen died, too. They now estimate a total toll of about 7,500 prisoners, I know that the numbers don't add up right. Maybe they mean 7,500 as a total of all people who died. The third ship was the Athens. She held 2000 prisoners at the time of the sinking but was still in the Harbour of Neustadt. That's how all of them could survive.
Anyway, the Wilhelm Gustloff which was sunk on Jan.30th the same year, by the russian U-Boat S-13, carried more than 10,000 people. They were mostly children and women. Many of the women were pregnant or had little kids, most personnel was female. The Gustloff had a hospital and facilities to give birth. The people were escaping from East-Prussia, so the ship was hopelessly overfilled. Towards the end they stopped registering the passengers but say that more than 9,500 died. 5,000 of those were children. They call it the greatest ship-catastrophy of all times. The sinking of the Cap Arcona and the Thielbeck could well be the second biggest. ----Silke, 17th of Jan, 2009, early morning —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.176.89 ( talk) 13:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
1) If you understand the German language, from the German Talk page "Cap Arcona" :
"Folgende Zahlen kursieren - welche sollte ich als gültig hier referenzieren? Da lasse ich es lieber unbestimmt...
vorgefunden und im Artikel so belassen: "...wobei die meisten der an Bord befindlichen ca. 4600 KZ-Häftlinge ums Leben kamen."
Bei Diercks/Grill Seite 178: "nur 350 von etwa 4.500 Häftlingen der "Cap Arcona" und 50 von 2.500 Häftlingen der "Thielbek" überlebten..."
Lange, Cap Arcona, Dokumentation 1988, Seite 78 "etwa 6.000 Personen" zum Zeitpunkt des Angriffs auf dem Schiff / wenige Seiten vorher jedoch: am "Morgen des 3. Mai 1945 4.209 Häftlinge sowie etwa 500 Mann Besatzung und Bewachung an Bord"
Weblink ARD: C.A. von 4.500 KZ-Häftlingen an Bord überleben 350, / "Thielbek" 2.800 Häftlingen nur 50 Überlebende
Weblink Abendblatt: „...nach Langes Recherchen ....Cap Arcona" 4300 Häftlinge, 400 Soldaten und 70 Mann Besatzung. Nur etwa 400 Menschen überlebten. Auf der "Thielbek" überlebten etwa 50 von mehr als 3000 Menschen."
--Holgerjan 20:01, 12. Apr. 2008 (CEST)"
Russian Wikipedia : "Cap Arcona" 5,594 victims.
2) Read the Talk page :MV Wilhelm Gustloff/Archive/1, section "Citing sources".
" http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/bio.php?ID=92&reviewID=11483 "Unsolved History: Wilhelm Gustloff - Deadliest Sea Disaster". June 15, 2004. "Just about the time you give up all hope, though, an expert from London who specializes in catastrophe factors turns up and almost saves the show. He has a software program he's developed over several years which reconstructs maritime accidents and predicts – with some fairly pinpoint accuracy – the reactions of human beings under such stress. His mingling PC people fill the basic outlines of the Gustloff's structure and the step-by-step pandemonium is played out for us. We watch stairwells overcrowd and become impassible. We see the massive build-up of "hot spots" – red areas on the monitor screen – showing where passengers line up to wait for lifeboats and meet their destiny. Using data compiled from those who were there as well as ship's registries and rosters, our authority calculates that number of survivors – and miraculously, arrives at a figure only a few dozen away from the actual total. But the most compelling news is kept for last. It wasn't three, or six, or even eight thousand people who perished in the ship. He feels that more than TEN thousand died in the Baltic that night." Bill Gibron "
( 86.64.182.240 ( talk) 15:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)).
The more I read about everything the more I think the estimation of the death-tolls are o.k. that way. I think they are bringing the numbers of prisoners down because at the time of the attack some 100-200 might have died of exhaustion, malnutrition, etc. I actually think that this would be nice to add to the article (just to show the people's situation on the ships before the bombing). The site deutsche-passagierschiffe.de for example says: at the evening of April 28th there were 4,600 prisoners and 500 guards on board...every day 15-30 prisoners died...less than 350 people(!?) survive the unimaginable end. This site is also listed as source of the Russian article, so I don't know yet where they get their 5594 victims from. Maybe the numbers also go down because of the French and other Westerners being taken off, but I don't know that. I think it still is totally o.k. to say that there were about 4,500 (maybe even 4,600) on board. Especially because the Captain himself says that he only had about 4,500 prisoners on board at the time of the attack. I got the number from the "Dentist of Auschwitz". Jacobs himself was still brought aboard on May 1st, as one of 60 or so. So if some had been dying or leaving, than more were already coming. That's probably why some say 4,600. I don't know where they get the numbers of survivers from, so I wouldn't change anything there right now and just leave it at 4,500 prisoners to 350 survivers. I also think that the numbers of the Thielbek differ because some include the crew and some just list the prisoners. But since almost everybody died, prisoners as crew alike, and the captain too, I would put the numbers together. And say that of 3000 people just 50 made it to shore alive. At some point the numbers have to be added so people understand why it is the second worst seafaring incident, next to the Goya, in history. As a total of about 7,500 died in the ships, the water or ashore as a result of the bombings and shootings, while 7,000 of those were concentration-camp prisoners. That's also what the memorial says.
Silke28, 11:38, Wed. 21. Jan. 2009
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.176.89 ( talk) 08:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
There are some other sentences that trouble me.
German trawlers sent to rescue the crew... they rescued 400 SS? 20 SS women? 16 sailors? I do not know the source of this information but no other article I read says so. Everybody talks about 500 guards (deutsche-passagierschiffe.de), 500 seamen, "Flakmatrosen" and guards (deutsche Wikipedia- Seite), 400 soldiers and 70 crew-members (Lange, abendblatt.de),... Lange also says that there was no higher SS present anymore at the time of the bombing. He sees the absence of higher SS as indication that they were going to sink the ship anyway.
The German Wikipedia article states that most of them had run off in the morning. That was when the shooting of the Stutthof-Haeftlinge occured, which was another incident that day. I don't want to say its wrong, it just seems like a high number and I was wondering where it comes from. Or does 400 ss-men mean the 400 soldiers?
Another sentence is: Most of the prisoners who tried to board the trawlers were beaten off, while those who reached the shore were shot down in the surf.
Now Benjamin Jacobs in the "Dentist of Auschwitz" says: My naked comrades and the sunburned fisherman were my archangels... he was rescued by a fisherman together with other inmates, but the boat was lying so low in the water that they couldn't take anybody else. Earlier in the same chapter "Inferno" he says: "Hundreds of prisoners filled the top deck. At the stern about fifty German civilians, including a few women, and at least that many German sailors also confronted with the same dilemna." At that time he can also see the tipped Deutschland, "on one of its smokestacks appeared a large red cross".
I thought the Deutschland was attacked an hour later than the Cap Arcona, but there were still SS and about 50 sailors around. Maybe they were waiting to get picked up or something. Many of the prisoners were struggeling in the water. Later, after the ship started tilting, he says: "We were rapidly sinking. Few people were left on deck. The sailors and some SS men were still there." I guess nobody came to get them. They were still sitting on the sinking ship.
I do believe that most crew-members made it to shore, maybe right after the impact, eiter in boats or with life-wests. But it doesn't come together if the trawlers rescued all this ss and just 16 sailors.
In the next chapter of his book Benjamin Jacobs reunites with his brother, who was still on the sinking ship when he himself got rescued. The brother says that the British came and got them off the ship. Maybe they took the sailors as well. ----Silke28, 1:49, Thursd. 22.Jan.2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.176.89 ( talk) 12:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Aeroplane Monthly - June 1984 - Page 290
"Cap Arcona: atrocity or accident?"
"The second attack--the one that was to have such tragic consequences--was delivered by 198 Squadron, according to Coastal Command's survey team. Nine Typhoons swept over the bay at 1500hr. They were led by Group Captain "Johnnny" Johnson, who also commanded 123 Wing. Johnson was well known as a skilful and determined fighter pilot; he ... As might be expected, Johnson's leadership on this day was effective, although his pilots were completely unaware that their targets contained a cargo of innocent victims."
- "Johnny" Johnson = "Johnny" Baldwin [John Robert Baldwin (ace) ]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.64.182.240 ( talk) 14:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I think the tag has been there a while. It looks to me that the sinking section is pretty neutral now. Any objections to removing it? DHooke1973 ( talk) 12:49, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Vaughan is an unreliable American writer. This article requires proper recourse to SS or other German archive sources to support Vaughan's ridiculous contentions. The turbines on the Ancona, a splendid liner, were repairable and replacable and it is madness to suggest that these prisoners were transferred there for some kind of destructive execution. This is just anti-nazi propaganda and tripe. 86.165.100.194 ( talk) 12:44, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
In French language :
"Le fait d’avoir enregistré le témoignage de M. Pierre Clostermann quelques semaines avant sa disparition et qui reconnaît, pour la première fois, sa présence à bord des avions qui ont bombardé le Cap Arcona est bien plus important.
Pierre Clostermann reconnaît sa présence dans les avions mais nie le fait d’avoir tiré sur les survivants dans les canots de sauvetages malgré certains témoignages contraires. Les témoignages de qui ? dit-il. Qui a témoigné ? Où étaient-ils ces témoins quand cela se passait ? Ils ne pouvaient pas être dans les avions, c’était nous qui étions dans les avions. Nous étions les seuls à pouvoir voir ou alors quelques allemands rescapés… Il poursuit : j’ai trouvé que c’était malheureux, scandaleux, manque de pot, pas de chance. C’était absurde… c’est tout. Il n’y a pas de raison que l’on regrette particulièrement tout ça. On avait des sentiments pour les camarades, pour les gens qui ont été tués à nos côtés, qui étaient nos amis sans ça… En quoi ces déportés ont-ils été utiles pour gagner la guerre ? C’était plutôt à porter au débit des alliés qu’au crédit des alliés..." — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.64.182.240 (
talk)
10:21, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
You can buy the US photos in Arlington ( Virginia, USA). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.172.88.8 ( talk) 11:27, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
The article says he was ordered to hang himself, but the link takes you to his biography page, and it says he died in 1969. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.35.150.195 ( talk) 00:28, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I have reverted the attached paragraph; which is duplicated in the article on White Buses and belongs much better there; as the Swedish rescue operation had no organisational link in with the Cap Arcona sinkings; and had been completed some days earlier. TomHennell ( talk) 14:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
"On 30 April 1945, two Swedish ships, Magdalena and Lillie Matthiessen, sailed from Lübeck, the first with 223 western European prisoners, for the most part French-speaking. Among them was Michel Hollard, a member of the French Resistance, who had been transferred from Thielbek to Magdalena. Lillie Matthiesen carried 225 women from Ravensbrück for transportation to hospitals in Sweden. citation needed"
It is part of the "prison ship" story, though. Most of the prisoners were from Neuengamme, but some of these were prematurely rescued by this Swedish action. Ditto for the prisoners from Ravensbrück. There is a debate about the prisoners from Dora-Mittelbau, since part of these people originally came from Auschwitz - Furstengrübe, and there was a selection of prisoners by the Swedish Red Cross in the barns near Ahrensbök (cf. books of Benjamin Jacobs and Samuel Pivnik), when prisoners from Western Europe were rescued and from Eastern Europe were marched off later to Neustadt Bay and loaded on the Cap Arcona. Furthermore, Dr. Arnoldsson of the Swedish Red Cross warned the British Army about KZ prisoners on the ships on May 3, in addition to the warning of Paul de Blonay on May 2. As an aside, the people from Stutthof were loaded on their barges on April 25, 1945, and towed to arrive in Neustadt Bay in the evening of May 2. They docked alongside the Cap Arcona, but were refused, and later the prisoners went off on their own and stranded on the beach in the morning of May 3. ( Bomwatty ( talk) 11:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC))
The Magdalena and Lillie Matthiessen transport on April 30 has been described on page 7 of the Swedish report listed indicated as note 1 in the English Wikipedia page on the White Buses. It is not clear whether the breakdown given there is entirely correct. In any case, this transport was organized by de Blonay and Arnoldsson, after they had found out in Lübeck harbour that there were ~ 7 000 KZ prisoners on the ships, and obtained permission to transport some of these prisoners to Sweden. It is not clear to me at all that whatever happened to Dönitz c.s. in Flensburg had any influence on the behaviour of people in the Lübeck area. Bomwatty ( talk) 14:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
I have reinserted this reference at a more appropriate point in the text - with a link across to the White Buses article. I suggest that further details and corrections would be more appropriately mmde there. Nothing that I have found links that rescue mission specifically with the Cap Arcona - which is the particular subject of this article. TomHennell ( talk) 08:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
This is pretty confusing: "Draught: 12.8 m (8.7 m)." 12.8 is obviously wrong, but I wonder if 8.7 is correct. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 14:20, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
This article mentions that Cap Arcona was equipped for submarine signalling, as do many other ship articles. This is unlinked, and I cannot find an article describing it. Davidships ( talk) 18:06, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Dönitz sought, as did everyone in the East, including many Russians, Jews and POW's, to escape from the advancing Soviets. That was the purpose of these fleets. I am not aware of any basis for the suggestion that Donitz sought "while surrendering" [whatever that means], to "maintain the fiction that his administration had been free from involvement in the camps, or in Hitler's policies of genocide". Helping soldiers and other refugees to flee is not the same as maintaining a "fiction" about anything. As for "Hitler's policies of genocide", that is simply irrelevant - even if it was true that he had such an intention. Royalcourtier ( talk) 07:50, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
As Dönitz moved between Plön and Flensburg, he went to the Northwest, by car, presumably. The distance between these places is about 120 km. Neustadt in Holstein is almost due East of Plön, about 30 km away. This is NOT "literally outside his window". He moved his headquarters from Plön to Flensburg on May 2, and concentrated on reaching an armistice with the western Allies. In "the Instrument of Surrender", the reference to ships was added in by hand: see [1]. Bomwatty ( talk) 10:21, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
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There is a monument, picture is included on this very page, that is stating there were 7000 victims! I would suggest to change 5000 into 7000 and also add the remark that files on this drama will be closed by UK government till 2045. You can't deny 2000 persons unless you have proof that what was written on the monument was entirely wrong. Miss Lizzy ( talk) 23:52, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
This bit doesn't make sense. If this is meant to refer to an RAF squadron, then it should be No. 193 Squadron RAF. And is an article from China Daily, through the Chinese state propaganda agency, really a credible source? 195.173.13.125 ( talk) 12:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Source : "The Typhoon's Last Storm," by Paris-based US film maker Lawrence Bond, includes shocking testimony by rare survivors recounting how Royal Air Force planes returned time and again to strafe swimmers who survived the initial attacks.
3 instead of 8 ? No, there were the No. 198 Squadron and the No. 193 Squadron, based in Ahlhorn (Großenkneten), led by Squadron Leader Donald Murray Taylor.
" Donald Murray Taylor joined the RAF July 1937. Posted to 11 FTS, Wittering Sept.18 and was on staff at 5 Armament Training Station at Penrhos from May 7, 1938. In early 1940 he went to 64 Sq. at Church Fenton. Over Dunkirk on May 31, 1940 he destroyed a Bf 109 and on July 1st he shared in the destruction of a Do 17 and on the 10th damaged a Bf110. He was shot down in a surprise attack on July 17 by Lieutenant Wick of 1/JG2 whilst on Convoy Patrol. He was wounded when he crashed at Hempstead Lane, Hallsham, in Spitfire P9507. He was taken to Eastbourne Hospital. He commanded 195 Sq. from Nov.16, 1942 until Jan.1944 and then 197 Sq. from Jan-.July 1944 and was awarded the DFC (5.9.44) and later commanded 193 Sq. from April 1945 until disbanded on August 31, 1945. "
( 86.64.182.240 ( talk) 15:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC))
Dear anonymous contributor who repeats to change the external links:
Please don't change the URLs to [[http://www.something.com]], as those will display as [[1]] - which is very ugly. Either leave them without any brackets like they are now, or change them like this with a description on what to find at the link: [http://www.something.com Website showing something]. See also our Manual of style.
Every time you change it to the ugly looking style it will be reverted to the previous one anyway, so there is no point to continue to do that. Thank you. andy 13:31, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Someone has also removed the text stating why the prisoners were actually onboard the ships in the first place. They weren't going on a pleasure cruise - the ships were to be taken out into the middle of the Bay of Lübeck and then scuttled with the prisoners locked below decks so as to drown them. This was stated at the war crimes trial of the men responsible and the officer in charge (Max Pauly, ex-Commandant of Neuengamme) along with several others, was hanged. 82.111.65.142 13:35, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
You don't need to write 'with the imprisoned prisoners below', that is the one job of a prisoner, and by god they will be captive.
Günther Schwarberg states in his book "Angriffsziel Cap Arcona" (which is, incidentally, listed as one of the sources for this article) that 'Cap Arcona' had effectively been handed back to the Hamburg-Süd line, after the ship's engine systems had been ruined during her last trip as a refugee-ship. She was then confiscated again, this time by the SS, and the prisoners were brought aboard. The involvement of Graf Bernadotte must, under these circumstances, be seen as pure whitewash: She would not have been able to make any crossing under her own steam. On the other hand, it seems highly probable that she was indeed intended to be sunk with the prisoners aboard; the camps had in fact been dissolved primarily for the purpose of disposing of witnesses- many of whom perished by being marched across Germany, with little food or water. Towing her further out to sea and opening the seacocks would have been quite possible, and would be very much in tune with the usual efficiency of the SS in murdering people. Towing her all the way to Sweden would have been a different thing altogether. However- if she was intended to be scuttled, she would not have been towed to the middle of the Bay of Lübeck, but further out altogether. As for the British military authorities- I wouldn't be able to say what exactly they did or did not know; but there are some good reasons to assume that they did know quite a few things. They were able to deciphre radio-messages coded with one particular model of the 'Enigma'-coding-machine to the point were they could translate 75 % of the intercepted messages within 15 minutes after intercdeption, and the remaining 25 % within a few hours. That particular 'Enigma'-model had originally been in use with the Luftwaffe, but had been replaced by a newer model; the model in question (Enigma-D, I believe) was then primarily used by the SS, the German postal service, and the Reichsbahn.
(Source: "Entschied Ultra den Krieg?", 1981, ISBN 3-8033-0314-1; Original version of this book: "Ultra goes to war- the secret story" by Ronald Lewin, Hutchinson / London , 1978)
The Wehrmacht was extremely distrusting as far as Radio-communications were concerned; they preferred cable-links such as Telephone and Telegraph for their communications. The result was that the Telephone-system within Germany was constantly overloaded; subsequently the Reichsbahn- charged with organising rail-transportation of troops and materials not only within Germany, but also throughout the occupied territories- had to rely increasingly on using Radio-transmitters for their own communications. These communications were coded with the very Enigma-codes the British were able to de-code as described above. That means they were able to see exactly when a train with prisoners was to leave, what route it would take and where it was destined: It was the Reichsbahn who were responsible for most of the prisoner-transports, including those destined for the death-camps. Many of the 'Cap Arcona'- prisoners were not transported by train, but some of them were- and, as I said, the SS was using the same Enigma-machines at any rate. That means the British *must* have known- or so logic would dictate. 83.71.24.140 ( talk) 22:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I have trouble with the first paragraph of the Sinking section. <<On April 26, 1945, she was loaded with prisoners from the Neuengamme concentration camp near Hamburg and, together with two smaller ships, Thielbek and Athen, was brought into the Bay of Lübeck.>> So far, so good. But the next sentence is rather unclear, and needs clarification: <<During these days, informed by British Intelligence, Count Folke Bernadotte, vice-president of the Red Cross, gained much goodwill leading a rescue operation transporting west European deportees to hospitals in Sweden, of whom some were French-speakers transported aboard the Cap Arcona.>> What precisely is being meant? Yes, Bernadotte has goodwill via the White Buses operation, ok. Is the point & crux of the matter that "British intelligence" (hopefully not an oxymoron at the time) had concrete knowledge about who was on board the three ships (and nevertheless went on to the sinking & killing of 7,000 people)?
From the French Web site : http://www.michel-hollard.com/ "Michel Hollard : En février 1944, il est arrêté par la Gestapo à Paris en compagnie de deux de ses subordonnés. Torturé, emprisonné à Fresnes et condamné à mort, il est déporté au camp de concentration de Neuengamme. Il est sauvé miraculeusement du naufrage du Cap Arcona, en baie de Lubeck, que l'ennemi sabordait intentionnellement. Ce sauvetage est dû au Prince Bernadotte qui, informé par l'Intelligence Britannique, envoya une vedette sur place et obtint le salut de quelques prisonniers de langue française." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Hollard
Quoting from the Sinking-paragraph: "After the first wave had attacked the ships, the Cap Arcona hoisted the white ensign without any effect." This is not confirmed and rather unlikely, especially concerning the Cap Arcona. Whether the Athen hoisted a white flag is at least questionable but also not confirmed. Where does this information come from? holsteiner 10:22, 29 January 2007
Sorry, I may be asking a question that is obvious to people with specialised knowledge, but why is the word 'Career' the title of the infobox? If it's intentional and appropriate, could it be wikilinked to the nautical definition so the uninitiated can understand why it's used? Anchoress 01:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is incredibly hard to read. Having read it twice, I'm still hazy. It is not made clear that this was a boat as part of an operation by Count Bernadotte rescuing concentration camp victims (is that correct? I'm not sure I even understand the article correctly). What does Hitler's suicide have to do with anything -- the sentence that mentions it doesn't make any sense? Was any justification at all given for the British action? The quote about "That's war" notwithstanding, surely some purpose was given?
This article needs some serious love, guys. I would try to help, but I don't know anything about the subject. 67.175.166.240 03:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. This page is awful and should not have been featured on the Wiki main page. ScubaSteve2k1 06:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)ScubaSteve2k1
This article does need serious cleanup. Look at this sentence from the article: "Photos of the burning ships; listed as Deutschland, and Thielbek, Cap Arcona, swimming survivors were taken on a reconnaissance mission over Bay of Lübeck by F-6 aircraft of the USAAF's 161st Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron around 5:00 PM, shortly after the attack." Can someone put the cleanup infobox on this article? Rstandefer 13:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I've just read this page through 3 times and I'm only JUST starting to understand what it's all about!
I'm going to have a go at re-writing it, but I don't know how good it will be, I just feel some of it needs to be re-worded a bit! Let me know how I get on!
LookingYourBest
21:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I've had a go at re-writing the first couple of paragraphs of 'sinking', I think it makes SLIGHTLY more sense now! Let me know what you think! LookingYourBest 08:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Great job. i made a couple of small changes for clarity, but the article is 100% better in my opinion. Rstandefer 14:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
This section:
Is perfectly fine in general (Something should be found to mention there was no obvious reason, but it should be backed up) but is poorly worded, reading like OR and the only ref is a commercial link. Anyone wanna fight for its continued existance or can we all agree to delete it until someone wants to acctually 'adopt' it and properly write it up? (or someone can do that tag that labels it as being possibly OR and poorly referenced, can't remember the blasted shortcuts) Narson 16:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
"I asked for more information but the RAF declined to give it to me on the grounds the investigation is still open - 55 years later," Bond said.
According to at least one of the references ( http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/star/history/00-03-07/f02-uk.html) the RAF understood that "the ships carried Nazi leaders and troops trying to flee crumbling Germany to make a last stand in Norway, then still in German hands." This conflicts with the article which speculates that the reason why the records have been sealed is "the war was effectively over and the destruction of these non-military targets was of no discernible strategic value."
Also, I think the records have been sealed under a British Government rule, not an RAF one. However, to be sure of this I would need to do some digging. Greenshed 20:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
"The RAF has sealed the records about these attacks until 2045.[8] This may be due to the fact that, by this time, the war was effectively over and the destruction of these non-military targets was of no discernible strategic value."
I think this needs to be changed. At first I thought this was a typo and that the records were actually sealed until 1945, when the war was effectively over. Then I realized that the records are - in fact - sealed until 2045. "by this time..." is referring to the time of the attacks, not the time of the unsealing.
How about: "The RAF has sealed the records about these attacks for 100 years, until 2045.[8] This may be due to the fact that, by the time of the attacks, the war was effectively over..."
Trigam41
18:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Or... I suppose you could delete the line altogether... sure.
I do think we should expand MoD to Ministry of Defense. We don't have ministries in America, and it might be nice to expand the abbreviation.
Trigam41
21:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Hindsight is always 20/20. If the war would have been effectively over, there would have been no necessity for germany to run ships across the Baltic Sea. Instead British intelligence and troops still had to be on the alert for counter-attacks and suicide missions. The sealing of the documents is probably due to the RAF’s obligation to protect their former personnel from prosecution for actions performed in the line of duty. As various pilots have come forward, the actual course of events isn't really a secret anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.117.38 ( talk) 09:57, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
I have contacted the MoD regarding the supposed "sealed files" and neither the MoD nor the National Archive can find any sealed records. Those files which do exist have been placed in the National Archive and are free to view.
Of particular interest is the War Office investigation by No 2 War Crimes Investigation Team, led by a Major Till, into events at the Neuengamme Concentration Camp. Prisoners from this camp were placed on the Cap Arcona by their German guards, and as a consequence Major Till and his team also examined the circumstances surrounding the sinking of this vessel. This report is held by The National Archive under the reference WO 309/1952.
Also on deposit in the National Archive are the Operational Record Books of 2 TAF, 83 Group and the squadrons involved. Details of the operation and the reasons for conducting it are in the files held in the National Archive.
Unless anyone can find conclusive evidence of "sealed files" then I will delete the references to them, since they are unsubstanciated rumours as far as I can tell.
-- J.StuartClarke 20:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
"I asked for more information but the RAF declined to give it to me on the grounds the investigation is still open - 55 years later," Bond said.
China Daily, 2000-03-07 .(
86.64.182.240
14:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC))
The present RAF, not this old report : See The 100-Year Secret: Britain's Hidden World War II Massacre. The Lyons Press, October 2004. Page 170, 171.( 86.64.182.240 08:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)).
This report (Major Till) has been accessible by the authors in 2003; the book speak about it several pages. The most interesting remains the RAF's Archives, legally accessible at most in 2045.( 86.64.182.240 09:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC))
The most interesting remains the RAF's Archives, legally accessible at most in 2045 : the other documents that are not in the Till's report.
Lawrence Bond
"Dear Mr XXXXXXXXXXX
While we are aware of that rumours persist of the existence of closed file or files relating to events on the 3 May 1944, neither the Ministry of Defence nor the National Archive can find any files on the subject of the sinking of the Cap Arcona, the Thielbeack and the Deutschland by aircraft from 83 Group on 3 May 1945 other than those which are already in the public domain. The files on the matter have been deposited in the National Archive at Kew in London and are listed in the catalogue of the National Archive which is available on the internet. If you are unable to visit the National Archive yourself I suggest that you contact the Search Department who, for a fee, will undertake research for you and send you photocopies of the relevant documentation.
The information contained in The National Archive is on open access to members of the public. Of particular interest is the War Office investigation by No 2 War Crimes Investigation Team, led by a Major Till, into events at the Neuengamme Concentration Camp. Prisoners from this camp were placed on the Cap Arcona by their German guards, and as a consequence Major Till and his team also examined the circumstances surrounding the sinking of this vessel. This report is held by The National Archive under the reference WO 309/1952. Also on deposit in the National Archive are the Operational Record Books of 2 TAF, 83 Group and the squadrons involved. Details of the operation and the reasons for conducting it are in the files held in the National Archive and, under Section 21 of the Freedom of Information Act, I would ask you to consult these documents.
Yours sincerely
XXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX Air Historical Branch(RAF)
If the information enclosed does not address your requirements or you wish to complain about any aspect of the handling of this request, then you should contact the member of the Air Historical Branch who has sent the reply in the first instance. Should you remain dissatisfied, then you may apply for an MOD internal review by contacting the Director of Information Exploitation, 6th Floor, MOD Main Building, Whitehall, London SW1A 2HB. If you are still unhappy following an internal review you may take your complaint to the Information Commissioner under the Provisions of Section 50 of the Freedom of Information Act. Please note that the Information Commissioner will not investigate your case until the MOD internal review process has been completed."
Either the MoD is lying or they really don't have anything. --
J.StuartClarke
13:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Appointment and answer in 2045.(Page 170, 171).(
86.64.182.240
13:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC))
These British laws do exist.
These laws (2045) are the laws of the page 171 ("The 100-Year Secret: Britain's Hidden World War II Massacre". The Lyons Press, October 2004).
62 years of investigation : "I requested these RAF files on the sinking of the Cap Arcona from the RAF in 2000 and received a response in writing saying THE EVENT WAS STILL UNDER INVESTIGATION and would not be released at that time." : grotesque !
The FOIA only came into force in January 2005. -- J.StuartClarke 15:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I've removed a couple of lines of conjecture from the article and added a citation tag for one of the sentences that claim to have documents proving the British Government knew it was at fault. Can't go throwing accusations like that around without backup! Lol! LookingYourBest 11:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to remove that reference, since the research was done prior to 2001 when the FOIA came into effect. I have shown above that the RAF have no files on the subject and all known files are in the public domain. Just because a man has written a book does not make him right. We must be selective of our sources, and carefully analyise all of them. -- J.StuartClarke ( talk) 21:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
This BS is stirred up nowadays by the same group of people who did it back in 1945 (you get the picture?). The attack was erroneous and not responsible for the majority of casualties. Most of the victims died because they were not assisted or even forcefully kept back from attempting to rescue themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.117.38 ( talk) 10:07, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
This is a untrue and loaded term, it needs to be replaced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.248.159.240 ( talk) 06:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Also what comes to mind from the strafing the shipwreck survivors in the water, on purpose, isnt that a war crime? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.248.159.240 ( talk) 07:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
From the Web site :
http://www1.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035//arcona.html —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.64.182.240 (
talk)
13:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"Provisional toilets were installed on the deck of the Thielbek and embarkation started on the 20th April. The Swedish Red Cross were present and all concentration camp prisoners except the Russian prisoners received a food parcel which, with the combination of malnutrician and thirst, caused terrible suffering. The water supplied from the ship's tank was totally insufficient. Twenty to thirty prisoners died daily and were removed by lorry. All prisoners, except the political prisoners, remained one or two days on board before being transferred to the Cap Arcona by the Athen. The SS personnel were gradually reduced and replaced by 55 to 60 year old territorial army members and marines. There was straw on deck for the holds there being no beds. There were large stocks of provisions under tarpaulin on deck but distribution was disorganized. The sick and the Russian prisoners received little. The latrines were inadequate. Buckets were lowered into the holds and raised when full. The stench was terrible. Gastroenteritis raged.
... Gehrig was to escort the prisoners to their deaths aboard the Cap Arcona. He ordered captain Nobmann of the Athen to take 2,300 prisoners and 280 SS guards on board and to ferry them to the Cap Arcona. Captain Nobmann initially refused but obeyed when threatened with being shot following a drumhead court martial. The SS and Kapos drove the prisoners on board with yells and blows. They had to climb down rope ladders into the deep holds of the ship. In the haste many prisoners fell and were seriously injured. There was hardly room to move in the dark, cold and damp holds. There were no toilets or water. After some hours the fully laden ship left the harbour for the Cap Arcona anchored off Neustadt. Captain Bertram refused to take the prisoners on board even after the SS came aboard. The Athen remained off Neustadt overnight and returned to Lübeck next morning, the 21st April, the prisoners having been given nothing to eat or drink.
... On the 27th April the Athen arrived in Neustadt with 2,500 prisoners from Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp who were transferred to the Cap Arcona. For three days the Athen journeyed to and fro between Lübeck harbour and the Cap Arcona. There were finally 6,500 prisoners on board and 600 SS guards. There was hardly anything to eat or drink and prisoners continued to die. A launch brought drinking water and took the dead back to Neustadt daily. The Russians received the worst treatment being locked in the lowest hold without fresh air, light or food. The number of dead grew ever larger. The Athen made its last journey to the Cap Arcona on the 30th April but this time to take prisoners off as the Cap Arcona was so over crowded that even the SS could no longer endure the starvation, stench and dead." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.64.182.240 ( talk) 13:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Not correct: "The loss of life on the Cap Arcona make it the third-worst maritime disaster in history," as there seems to be other ships that have gone down with as many or more.
Maritime disasters of the 20th and 21st centuries CNN 6 February 2006:
Also
-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 23:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Also these two already in the see also section but unsourced on this page
-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 23:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Source
Junyō Maru :
[5] —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.64.182.240 (
talk)
10:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
There's a huge amount of stuff in this article that is either not sourced or is sourced to sources of dubious reliability - personal websites and the like - or to unpublished sources (RAF reports etc). In addition, it concerns me that some of it may fall under Original Research - drawing non-trivial conclusions from the sources without any supporting source for those conclusions.
I suspect part of the reason is simply because much of this text was written before our requirements for citations became as rigorous, and the information can in fact be found within the linked published sources, but there are some things on here that seem a little unproven.
I'm also wondering whether this article should be split into one about the ship itself and one about the sinking and its circumstances - as it is the latter wholly dwarfs the former and the article is not really about the Cap Arcona itself very much at all.
Thoughts? Matthew Brown (Morven) ( T: C) 22:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia needs published sources. Has the Till Report ever been published? My impression from what I'm reading here that it hasn't been, and it's been only available through the National Archives. Matthew Brown (Morven) ( T: C) 19:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
This excerpt (from National Archives, since January 1 2005, see upper "Records Sealed") can be read in the Benjamin Jacobs and Eugene Pool's book, The 100-Year Secret: Britain's Hidden World War II Massacre. The Lyons Press, October 2004.
ISBN
1-59228-532-5.(
86.64.182.240 (
talk)
14:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)).
The Times - May 30, 1947 - Page 5
"AIRMEN IN GERMANY
BRITISH OCCUPATION FORCES IN TRAINING
CLOSE COOPERATION WITH THE ARMY
By Our Aeronautical Correspondent.
...
MOCK WAR ... There is a bombing range a mile or so from the shore, near where the German
" Strength through Joy " ships (??????)
, the Deutschland and the Cap Arcona,
WHICH WERE BEING USED AS ARMED TRANSPORTS,
were sunk a few days before the end of the war by rocket-firing Typhoons of the R.A.F. 2nd T.A.F. These vessels, rusting and half submerged, can still be seen lying upside down, and on closer inspection one can observe the gaping holes which testify to the deadly effect of rocket-projectiles..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.64.182.240 ( talk) 15:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
The section on the sinking suggests that the ship was sunk when the British government was aware that it was loaded with concentration camp survivors, and that the British government is to this day engaged in a continuing attempt to cover up the evidence. Very strong proof (lacking here) should be required before any such claim can be said to be objective. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 23:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I removed the phrasing there is some evidence british intelligence were aware of the prisoners and this may be why the records have been sealed. I have also re-phrased he two surrounding paragraphs where they contained similar inferences.
Reasons:
1) none of the sources cited in the article suggest this. Putting in statements with apparent citations that do not support the argument is not good practice.
2)The explaination used earlier of failure to pass on messages and warnings in time of war is a more sensible and supported reason for the attack.
3) Unrelated to anything cited in the article if anyone can suggest even a vaguely coherant reason why the RAF would deliberately as opposed to by tragic error bomb and kill 5,000 of their own allies civilians and POW's. As well as of course providing verifiable sources that back this up I'll be glad to discuss it. Kurtk60 ( talk) 00:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
1) From the Till report of June 1945: "From the facts and from the statement volunteered by the RAF Intelligence Officer, it appears that the primary responsibility for this great loss of life must fall on the British RAF personnel who failed to pass to the pilots concerned the message they received concerning the presence of KZ prisoners on board these ships".(
86.64.182.240 (
talk)
13:35, 24 December 2008 (UTC)).
Sorry I phrased my point 1 here poorly, apologies. Yes your spot on that a failure to pass on information was probably responsible. The reason for my edit is that the phrasing at several points in the article implied a deliberate attack on the prisoners. Rather than a tragic lack of communication in time of war. These two sentences I removed/re-phrased illustrate the point I hope.
"The attacking force stated that they were unaware that the ships were laden with prisoners. However, the facts appear otherwise. "
&
"The RAF reportedly thought that the ships carried escaping SS officers, but there is some evidence that British intelligence knew the truth, which may be the reason why the official records have been sealed until 2045"
I have no issue with mentioning that some elements of the RAF may not have told others about the prescence of prisoners onboard (which the Till report supports) by mistake infact it should definately be included. But the phrasing should not wander into suggesting anything more sinister? Kurtk60 ( talk) 18:15, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
I've just read a german article of NDR-online about the topic (www.kriegsende.ard.de) where they state that 4,500 prisoners of concentration-camps had been on the Cap Arcona. Of those only about 350 survived. While 80% (I don't know of how many) of the crew, SS, guards and the Captain Bertram saved themselves. 1 hour after the attack on the Cap Arcona the frighter Thielbeck was shot at, it took 20 min. to sink. Anyway, the Thielbeck carried 2,800 prisoners, of those only 50 survived. Most of the seamen including the Captain Jacobsen died, too. They now estimate a total toll of about 7,500 prisoners, I know that the numbers don't add up right. Maybe they mean 7,500 as a total of all people who died. The third ship was the Athens. She held 2000 prisoners at the time of the sinking but was still in the Harbour of Neustadt. That's how all of them could survive.
Anyway, the Wilhelm Gustloff which was sunk on Jan.30th the same year, by the russian U-Boat S-13, carried more than 10,000 people. They were mostly children and women. Many of the women were pregnant or had little kids, most personnel was female. The Gustloff had a hospital and facilities to give birth. The people were escaping from East-Prussia, so the ship was hopelessly overfilled. Towards the end they stopped registering the passengers but say that more than 9,500 died. 5,000 of those were children. They call it the greatest ship-catastrophy of all times. The sinking of the Cap Arcona and the Thielbeck could well be the second biggest. ----Silke, 17th of Jan, 2009, early morning —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.176.89 ( talk) 13:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
1) If you understand the German language, from the German Talk page "Cap Arcona" :
"Folgende Zahlen kursieren - welche sollte ich als gültig hier referenzieren? Da lasse ich es lieber unbestimmt...
vorgefunden und im Artikel so belassen: "...wobei die meisten der an Bord befindlichen ca. 4600 KZ-Häftlinge ums Leben kamen."
Bei Diercks/Grill Seite 178: "nur 350 von etwa 4.500 Häftlingen der "Cap Arcona" und 50 von 2.500 Häftlingen der "Thielbek" überlebten..."
Lange, Cap Arcona, Dokumentation 1988, Seite 78 "etwa 6.000 Personen" zum Zeitpunkt des Angriffs auf dem Schiff / wenige Seiten vorher jedoch: am "Morgen des 3. Mai 1945 4.209 Häftlinge sowie etwa 500 Mann Besatzung und Bewachung an Bord"
Weblink ARD: C.A. von 4.500 KZ-Häftlingen an Bord überleben 350, / "Thielbek" 2.800 Häftlingen nur 50 Überlebende
Weblink Abendblatt: „...nach Langes Recherchen ....Cap Arcona" 4300 Häftlinge, 400 Soldaten und 70 Mann Besatzung. Nur etwa 400 Menschen überlebten. Auf der "Thielbek" überlebten etwa 50 von mehr als 3000 Menschen."
--Holgerjan 20:01, 12. Apr. 2008 (CEST)"
Russian Wikipedia : "Cap Arcona" 5,594 victims.
2) Read the Talk page :MV Wilhelm Gustloff/Archive/1, section "Citing sources".
" http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/bio.php?ID=92&reviewID=11483 "Unsolved History: Wilhelm Gustloff - Deadliest Sea Disaster". June 15, 2004. "Just about the time you give up all hope, though, an expert from London who specializes in catastrophe factors turns up and almost saves the show. He has a software program he's developed over several years which reconstructs maritime accidents and predicts – with some fairly pinpoint accuracy – the reactions of human beings under such stress. His mingling PC people fill the basic outlines of the Gustloff's structure and the step-by-step pandemonium is played out for us. We watch stairwells overcrowd and become impassible. We see the massive build-up of "hot spots" – red areas on the monitor screen – showing where passengers line up to wait for lifeboats and meet their destiny. Using data compiled from those who were there as well as ship's registries and rosters, our authority calculates that number of survivors – and miraculously, arrives at a figure only a few dozen away from the actual total. But the most compelling news is kept for last. It wasn't three, or six, or even eight thousand people who perished in the ship. He feels that more than TEN thousand died in the Baltic that night." Bill Gibron "
( 86.64.182.240 ( talk) 15:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)).
The more I read about everything the more I think the estimation of the death-tolls are o.k. that way. I think they are bringing the numbers of prisoners down because at the time of the attack some 100-200 might have died of exhaustion, malnutrition, etc. I actually think that this would be nice to add to the article (just to show the people's situation on the ships before the bombing). The site deutsche-passagierschiffe.de for example says: at the evening of April 28th there were 4,600 prisoners and 500 guards on board...every day 15-30 prisoners died...less than 350 people(!?) survive the unimaginable end. This site is also listed as source of the Russian article, so I don't know yet where they get their 5594 victims from. Maybe the numbers also go down because of the French and other Westerners being taken off, but I don't know that. I think it still is totally o.k. to say that there were about 4,500 (maybe even 4,600) on board. Especially because the Captain himself says that he only had about 4,500 prisoners on board at the time of the attack. I got the number from the "Dentist of Auschwitz". Jacobs himself was still brought aboard on May 1st, as one of 60 or so. So if some had been dying or leaving, than more were already coming. That's probably why some say 4,600. I don't know where they get the numbers of survivers from, so I wouldn't change anything there right now and just leave it at 4,500 prisoners to 350 survivers. I also think that the numbers of the Thielbek differ because some include the crew and some just list the prisoners. But since almost everybody died, prisoners as crew alike, and the captain too, I would put the numbers together. And say that of 3000 people just 50 made it to shore alive. At some point the numbers have to be added so people understand why it is the second worst seafaring incident, next to the Goya, in history. As a total of about 7,500 died in the ships, the water or ashore as a result of the bombings and shootings, while 7,000 of those were concentration-camp prisoners. That's also what the memorial says.
Silke28, 11:38, Wed. 21. Jan. 2009
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.176.89 ( talk) 08:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
There are some other sentences that trouble me.
German trawlers sent to rescue the crew... they rescued 400 SS? 20 SS women? 16 sailors? I do not know the source of this information but no other article I read says so. Everybody talks about 500 guards (deutsche-passagierschiffe.de), 500 seamen, "Flakmatrosen" and guards (deutsche Wikipedia- Seite), 400 soldiers and 70 crew-members (Lange, abendblatt.de),... Lange also says that there was no higher SS present anymore at the time of the bombing. He sees the absence of higher SS as indication that they were going to sink the ship anyway.
The German Wikipedia article states that most of them had run off in the morning. That was when the shooting of the Stutthof-Haeftlinge occured, which was another incident that day. I don't want to say its wrong, it just seems like a high number and I was wondering where it comes from. Or does 400 ss-men mean the 400 soldiers?
Another sentence is: Most of the prisoners who tried to board the trawlers were beaten off, while those who reached the shore were shot down in the surf.
Now Benjamin Jacobs in the "Dentist of Auschwitz" says: My naked comrades and the sunburned fisherman were my archangels... he was rescued by a fisherman together with other inmates, but the boat was lying so low in the water that they couldn't take anybody else. Earlier in the same chapter "Inferno" he says: "Hundreds of prisoners filled the top deck. At the stern about fifty German civilians, including a few women, and at least that many German sailors also confronted with the same dilemna." At that time he can also see the tipped Deutschland, "on one of its smokestacks appeared a large red cross".
I thought the Deutschland was attacked an hour later than the Cap Arcona, but there were still SS and about 50 sailors around. Maybe they were waiting to get picked up or something. Many of the prisoners were struggeling in the water. Later, after the ship started tilting, he says: "We were rapidly sinking. Few people were left on deck. The sailors and some SS men were still there." I guess nobody came to get them. They were still sitting on the sinking ship.
I do believe that most crew-members made it to shore, maybe right after the impact, eiter in boats or with life-wests. But it doesn't come together if the trawlers rescued all this ss and just 16 sailors.
In the next chapter of his book Benjamin Jacobs reunites with his brother, who was still on the sinking ship when he himself got rescued. The brother says that the British came and got them off the ship. Maybe they took the sailors as well. ----Silke28, 1:49, Thursd. 22.Jan.2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.176.89 ( talk) 12:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Aeroplane Monthly - June 1984 - Page 290
"Cap Arcona: atrocity or accident?"
"The second attack--the one that was to have such tragic consequences--was delivered by 198 Squadron, according to Coastal Command's survey team. Nine Typhoons swept over the bay at 1500hr. They were led by Group Captain "Johnnny" Johnson, who also commanded 123 Wing. Johnson was well known as a skilful and determined fighter pilot; he ... As might be expected, Johnson's leadership on this day was effective, although his pilots were completely unaware that their targets contained a cargo of innocent victims."
- "Johnny" Johnson = "Johnny" Baldwin [John Robert Baldwin (ace) ]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.64.182.240 ( talk) 14:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I think the tag has been there a while. It looks to me that the sinking section is pretty neutral now. Any objections to removing it? DHooke1973 ( talk) 12:49, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Vaughan is an unreliable American writer. This article requires proper recourse to SS or other German archive sources to support Vaughan's ridiculous contentions. The turbines on the Ancona, a splendid liner, were repairable and replacable and it is madness to suggest that these prisoners were transferred there for some kind of destructive execution. This is just anti-nazi propaganda and tripe. 86.165.100.194 ( talk) 12:44, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
In French language :
"Le fait d’avoir enregistré le témoignage de M. Pierre Clostermann quelques semaines avant sa disparition et qui reconnaît, pour la première fois, sa présence à bord des avions qui ont bombardé le Cap Arcona est bien plus important.
Pierre Clostermann reconnaît sa présence dans les avions mais nie le fait d’avoir tiré sur les survivants dans les canots de sauvetages malgré certains témoignages contraires. Les témoignages de qui ? dit-il. Qui a témoigné ? Où étaient-ils ces témoins quand cela se passait ? Ils ne pouvaient pas être dans les avions, c’était nous qui étions dans les avions. Nous étions les seuls à pouvoir voir ou alors quelques allemands rescapés… Il poursuit : j’ai trouvé que c’était malheureux, scandaleux, manque de pot, pas de chance. C’était absurde… c’est tout. Il n’y a pas de raison que l’on regrette particulièrement tout ça. On avait des sentiments pour les camarades, pour les gens qui ont été tués à nos côtés, qui étaient nos amis sans ça… En quoi ces déportés ont-ils été utiles pour gagner la guerre ? C’était plutôt à porter au débit des alliés qu’au crédit des alliés..." — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.64.182.240 (
talk)
10:21, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
You can buy the US photos in Arlington ( Virginia, USA). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.172.88.8 ( talk) 11:27, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
The article says he was ordered to hang himself, but the link takes you to his biography page, and it says he died in 1969. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.35.150.195 ( talk) 00:28, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I have reverted the attached paragraph; which is duplicated in the article on White Buses and belongs much better there; as the Swedish rescue operation had no organisational link in with the Cap Arcona sinkings; and had been completed some days earlier. TomHennell ( talk) 14:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
"On 30 April 1945, two Swedish ships, Magdalena and Lillie Matthiessen, sailed from Lübeck, the first with 223 western European prisoners, for the most part French-speaking. Among them was Michel Hollard, a member of the French Resistance, who had been transferred from Thielbek to Magdalena. Lillie Matthiesen carried 225 women from Ravensbrück for transportation to hospitals in Sweden. citation needed"
It is part of the "prison ship" story, though. Most of the prisoners were from Neuengamme, but some of these were prematurely rescued by this Swedish action. Ditto for the prisoners from Ravensbrück. There is a debate about the prisoners from Dora-Mittelbau, since part of these people originally came from Auschwitz - Furstengrübe, and there was a selection of prisoners by the Swedish Red Cross in the barns near Ahrensbök (cf. books of Benjamin Jacobs and Samuel Pivnik), when prisoners from Western Europe were rescued and from Eastern Europe were marched off later to Neustadt Bay and loaded on the Cap Arcona. Furthermore, Dr. Arnoldsson of the Swedish Red Cross warned the British Army about KZ prisoners on the ships on May 3, in addition to the warning of Paul de Blonay on May 2. As an aside, the people from Stutthof were loaded on their barges on April 25, 1945, and towed to arrive in Neustadt Bay in the evening of May 2. They docked alongside the Cap Arcona, but were refused, and later the prisoners went off on their own and stranded on the beach in the morning of May 3. ( Bomwatty ( talk) 11:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC))
The Magdalena and Lillie Matthiessen transport on April 30 has been described on page 7 of the Swedish report listed indicated as note 1 in the English Wikipedia page on the White Buses. It is not clear whether the breakdown given there is entirely correct. In any case, this transport was organized by de Blonay and Arnoldsson, after they had found out in Lübeck harbour that there were ~ 7 000 KZ prisoners on the ships, and obtained permission to transport some of these prisoners to Sweden. It is not clear to me at all that whatever happened to Dönitz c.s. in Flensburg had any influence on the behaviour of people in the Lübeck area. Bomwatty ( talk) 14:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
I have reinserted this reference at a more appropriate point in the text - with a link across to the White Buses article. I suggest that further details and corrections would be more appropriately mmde there. Nothing that I have found links that rescue mission specifically with the Cap Arcona - which is the particular subject of this article. TomHennell ( talk) 08:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
This is pretty confusing: "Draught: 12.8 m (8.7 m)." 12.8 is obviously wrong, but I wonder if 8.7 is correct. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 14:20, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
This article mentions that Cap Arcona was equipped for submarine signalling, as do many other ship articles. This is unlinked, and I cannot find an article describing it. Davidships ( talk) 18:06, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Dönitz sought, as did everyone in the East, including many Russians, Jews and POW's, to escape from the advancing Soviets. That was the purpose of these fleets. I am not aware of any basis for the suggestion that Donitz sought "while surrendering" [whatever that means], to "maintain the fiction that his administration had been free from involvement in the camps, or in Hitler's policies of genocide". Helping soldiers and other refugees to flee is not the same as maintaining a "fiction" about anything. As for "Hitler's policies of genocide", that is simply irrelevant - even if it was true that he had such an intention. Royalcourtier ( talk) 07:50, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
As Dönitz moved between Plön and Flensburg, he went to the Northwest, by car, presumably. The distance between these places is about 120 km. Neustadt in Holstein is almost due East of Plön, about 30 km away. This is NOT "literally outside his window". He moved his headquarters from Plön to Flensburg on May 2, and concentrated on reaching an armistice with the western Allies. In "the Instrument of Surrender", the reference to ships was added in by hand: see [1]. Bomwatty ( talk) 10:21, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
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I have reverted material added to this discussion page that openly maintained assertions of Holocaust denial. Just to clarify; Holocaust denial is a blatant hoax - such assertions are of course also false, malicious, dangerous and (in many jurisdictions) illegal; but in terms of strict Wikipedia policies it is sufficient to note that blatant hoax material is to be removed from any articles and discussion pages whenever and wherever it may be posted. TomHennell ( talk) 13:23, 8 April 2019 (UTC)