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Survived: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Russia (disambiguation). `' mikka (t) 00:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Before the fall of the Soviet Union, there where millions of written references in billions of printed copies referring to " Russias" other than the Russian Federation. It was common to refer to the Soviet Union simply as “Russia”. The distinction between Rus' and Russia, so carefully maintained the article on the etymology of Rus and derivatives was largely unknown outside academic circles. Thousands of these references are inherited by Wikipedia articles. I believe, that for historical articles the reference should be to the “Russia” or Russian State of the time period. In some cases it may be advisable to replace Russia with the name of the corresponding article. In some cases it may be better to leave the visible link as “Russia” and disambiguate the hidden link to the appropriate article. (This comment naturally applies to all countries with long histories. See for example Saxony (disambiguation)) Disambiguating may result in a situation where the user presses the link labeled “Russia” and arrives at Novgorod Republic without really knowing why he got there. A remedy could be labeling the disambiguated page with the template {{ Previously|Russia}}, rendered as something like
-- Petri Krohn 09:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Petri, your obstinate edits are in contradiction of WP:DAB. There is no ambiguity between Russia and Rugians. Noone would search for Novgorod Republic under Russia. You've been told as much on AfD. Removal of such entries was the reason why the article escaped deletion. You should check Italy (disambiguation) to see how disambiguation pages are usually done. By the way, there is no Germany (disambiguation), although its this country's name that needs the heaviest disambiguation efforts (following your logic). -- Ghirla -трёп- 09:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of russia leather? 195.92.40.49 ( talk) 13:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
@ Korwinski: This is the place for entities known as "Russia", not "Rus" or anything else. The appropriate spot for ancestor states is Outline of Russia#History of Russia. Clarityfiend ( talk) 21:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
Contemporary English lacks satisfactory terms to denote the regions that have since become Belarus′, Russia, and Ukraine and to denote the peoples that inhabited these regions before the development of the Russian empire.
It has been two weeks now.
1. Clarityfiend was unable to provide any sources that would justify removal of the information from the page.
2. Required sources that confirm usage of the term by and regarding to other non-Muscovy states/regions (in all forms including just "Russia") were provided.
3. As per Clarityfiend's request I had my sources and reasons submitted to the community. No objection there. Korwinski ( talk) 20:07, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
After another quick glance at the contentious articles, it does appear like most of them had Ru(s)sia among the names they were known as at the time. But do these names occur in modern English without quotation marks or qualifications? If not, then when listing those entries, we'd need to be explicit about the contexts in which they were called Russia (was it only in Latin? was it only from a specific POV?, etc). It may also be worth considering Names of Rus', Russia and Ruthenia. That article, and especially the section #From Rus' to Russia, provide an extended overview of the history around those older uses of the name, and we may link to it either in addition to, or possibly instead of, listing each individual entity. – Uanfala (talk) 02:13, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
I was about to suggest using for the historic states a reverse chronological order (more recent at the top): the further we go back in time, the less likely it seems that that would be what a reader wants when they search for unqualified Russia. It turns out, that was actually the order used through most of this page's history ( example revision). – Uanfala (talk) 02:31, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
I've restored what was arguably the last stable version of that section [2]: this appears to have existed more or less unchanged for years until the additions from February 2021 [3], and the edit wars of the last six months. Maybe we could start from here and decide piece by piece what we're going to add and remove? – Uanfala (talk) 22:49, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
The article Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia supports the usage of "Rus(s)ia" for the place at the time, so this entry should be added back. – Uanfala ( talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
I've had a look at the references given in this previous revision and the ones presented at the start of this thread above.
The cited passage (p. 105) from Plokhy's Unmaking Imperial Russia [4] refers (not in Plokhy's own words, but in citations of early 20th-century historians, esp. Matvei Lyubavski) to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth as "Lithuanian Rus", "Lithuan Russian State" and "Western Rus", but not as just "Russia". Similarly, Rambaud's book on p. 238 [5] uses only "Lithuanian Russia", while reserving the term "Russia" for Muscovy. On p. 186 of History of Pagan Europe [6], the phrase used is again only "Lithuanin Russia". Page 164 of Dawisha cited earlier in the thread [7] is actually in a paper by Prazauskas (Dawisha is only the series editor). It doesn't refer to the Grand Duchy as "Russia", but merely describes it as being regarded by early 20th-century Russian historians as a Lithuanian-Russian state.
So far there's no reference for the unqualified "Russia" being used to refer to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Unless such a source is found, we only have the phrase "Lithuanian Russia", which is a partial title match ( WP:PTM). PTMs, if at all included on a dab page, would normally go in the "See also" section ( MOS:DABSEEALSO). Still, I can see an argument being made to the effect that this topic is sufficiently similar to the group of topics listed in the main body of the dab page and that it may be best for reader navigation if it's placed under the same heading. So, if someone adds an entry for Lithuania, I won't object (as long as it's made clear what Russia-related name it's known under). – Uanfala ( talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Grand Duchy of Moscow supports the usage, and so does, among others, the Rambaud passage cited in "Lithuania" above. – Uanfala ( talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
No mention in the aricle Novgorod Republic. – Uanfala ( talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
The article Rus' Khaganate doesn't seem to have any supporting mention. – Uanfala ( talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
The only thing that I can see in the article Ruthenian Voivodeship is the Latin name Palatinatus russiae, which may suggest that the name "Russia" may have been used, but ideally we'd need something a bit more definitive. – Uanfala ( talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This disambiguation page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Survived: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Russia (disambiguation). `' mikka (t) 00:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Before the fall of the Soviet Union, there where millions of written references in billions of printed copies referring to " Russias" other than the Russian Federation. It was common to refer to the Soviet Union simply as “Russia”. The distinction between Rus' and Russia, so carefully maintained the article on the etymology of Rus and derivatives was largely unknown outside academic circles. Thousands of these references are inherited by Wikipedia articles. I believe, that for historical articles the reference should be to the “Russia” or Russian State of the time period. In some cases it may be advisable to replace Russia with the name of the corresponding article. In some cases it may be better to leave the visible link as “Russia” and disambiguate the hidden link to the appropriate article. (This comment naturally applies to all countries with long histories. See for example Saxony (disambiguation)) Disambiguating may result in a situation where the user presses the link labeled “Russia” and arrives at Novgorod Republic without really knowing why he got there. A remedy could be labeling the disambiguated page with the template {{ Previously|Russia}}, rendered as something like
-- Petri Krohn 09:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Petri, your obstinate edits are in contradiction of WP:DAB. There is no ambiguity between Russia and Rugians. Noone would search for Novgorod Republic under Russia. You've been told as much on AfD. Removal of such entries was the reason why the article escaped deletion. You should check Italy (disambiguation) to see how disambiguation pages are usually done. By the way, there is no Germany (disambiguation), although its this country's name that needs the heaviest disambiguation efforts (following your logic). -- Ghirla -трёп- 09:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of russia leather? 195.92.40.49 ( talk) 13:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
@ Korwinski: This is the place for entities known as "Russia", not "Rus" or anything else. The appropriate spot for ancestor states is Outline of Russia#History of Russia. Clarityfiend ( talk) 21:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
Contemporary English lacks satisfactory terms to denote the regions that have since become Belarus′, Russia, and Ukraine and to denote the peoples that inhabited these regions before the development of the Russian empire.
It has been two weeks now.
1. Clarityfiend was unable to provide any sources that would justify removal of the information from the page.
2. Required sources that confirm usage of the term by and regarding to other non-Muscovy states/regions (in all forms including just "Russia") were provided.
3. As per Clarityfiend's request I had my sources and reasons submitted to the community. No objection there. Korwinski ( talk) 20:07, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
After another quick glance at the contentious articles, it does appear like most of them had Ru(s)sia among the names they were known as at the time. But do these names occur in modern English without quotation marks or qualifications? If not, then when listing those entries, we'd need to be explicit about the contexts in which they were called Russia (was it only in Latin? was it only from a specific POV?, etc). It may also be worth considering Names of Rus', Russia and Ruthenia. That article, and especially the section #From Rus' to Russia, provide an extended overview of the history around those older uses of the name, and we may link to it either in addition to, or possibly instead of, listing each individual entity. – Uanfala (talk) 02:13, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
I was about to suggest using for the historic states a reverse chronological order (more recent at the top): the further we go back in time, the less likely it seems that that would be what a reader wants when they search for unqualified Russia. It turns out, that was actually the order used through most of this page's history ( example revision). – Uanfala (talk) 02:31, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
I've restored what was arguably the last stable version of that section [2]: this appears to have existed more or less unchanged for years until the additions from February 2021 [3], and the edit wars of the last six months. Maybe we could start from here and decide piece by piece what we're going to add and remove? – Uanfala (talk) 22:49, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
The article Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia supports the usage of "Rus(s)ia" for the place at the time, so this entry should be added back. – Uanfala ( talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
I've had a look at the references given in this previous revision and the ones presented at the start of this thread above.
The cited passage (p. 105) from Plokhy's Unmaking Imperial Russia [4] refers (not in Plokhy's own words, but in citations of early 20th-century historians, esp. Matvei Lyubavski) to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth as "Lithuanian Rus", "Lithuan Russian State" and "Western Rus", but not as just "Russia". Similarly, Rambaud's book on p. 238 [5] uses only "Lithuanian Russia", while reserving the term "Russia" for Muscovy. On p. 186 of History of Pagan Europe [6], the phrase used is again only "Lithuanin Russia". Page 164 of Dawisha cited earlier in the thread [7] is actually in a paper by Prazauskas (Dawisha is only the series editor). It doesn't refer to the Grand Duchy as "Russia", but merely describes it as being regarded by early 20th-century Russian historians as a Lithuanian-Russian state.
So far there's no reference for the unqualified "Russia" being used to refer to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Unless such a source is found, we only have the phrase "Lithuanian Russia", which is a partial title match ( WP:PTM). PTMs, if at all included on a dab page, would normally go in the "See also" section ( MOS:DABSEEALSO). Still, I can see an argument being made to the effect that this topic is sufficiently similar to the group of topics listed in the main body of the dab page and that it may be best for reader navigation if it's placed under the same heading. So, if someone adds an entry for Lithuania, I won't object (as long as it's made clear what Russia-related name it's known under). – Uanfala ( talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Grand Duchy of Moscow supports the usage, and so does, among others, the Rambaud passage cited in "Lithuania" above. – Uanfala ( talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
No mention in the aricle Novgorod Republic. – Uanfala ( talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
The article Rus' Khaganate doesn't seem to have any supporting mention. – Uanfala ( talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
The only thing that I can see in the article Ruthenian Voivodeship is the Latin name Palatinatus russiae, which may suggest that the name "Russia" may have been used, but ideally we'd need something a bit more definitive. – Uanfala ( talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)