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Check out the to-do list! Quadra 19:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
As a favour, would all anonymous posters kindly a) acquire an account (it's not that hard, people!) b) read the rest of the discussion page before editing the article, and c) post at the bottom of the discussion page? Thanks all! Quadra 19:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The old page Sea Cadets was a complex and multi cadet organisation page. It is being simplified and turned into a disambiguation page, with the contents being merged into their relevant organisations' pages Fiddle Faddle 11:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Sea Cadets adds nothing here. I am removing the merge suggestion, but referring that page here. Fiddle Faddle 21:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Great to have them, and thanks for putting them here. I had a look at the alignment and size issues. The 80px thumbnails seem to be a good compromise since you can read the text under the, Full pictures made the insignia dominate, rather than the text dominate the page, so I took your excellent work and I hope enhanced it.
Some alignment issues remain, but shrinking the thumbs is not going to solve it. I hope we have a good solution as it stands, but a better layout expert (of which there are many) may disagree.
Fiddle Faddle 09:59, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
There are a lot of facts here, but little about history. I've been doing an "editing cleanup" as have others (I am not a content expert), but what is needed is a content expert to provide thinsg like a timeline of the history, notable cadets and officers, something to get one's teeth into. It's encyclopaedic, and editors have worked hard, but ut's rather empty still, though valuable so far as it goes Fiddle Faddle 10:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Wow! you did a great job. I will find the historical information needed for this site. user:ctjj.stevenson
The more I look at this the more I think it is great background information, but requires a separate page. In general lists of this major length do not belong inside an article since they dominate the page. I am going to flag the top and bottom of the list with HTML comments so that it will be easy for whoever decides to split the list into a new article to split it.
Also, is the list complete?
Fiddle Faddle 16:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Why are they notable? If they are not notable, please wikify them in the ordinary list. They are only notable if there is something notable about them.
Notable means something special, not just that they exist, because we know they exist. Unless they are themselves notable there is a real danger of having the list of corps twice. I have wikified them in the list of corps instead. If they are truly notable, bring them out and highlight them as well, but better to do that in their own articles. However, just creating an article because a particular corps exists does not really meet the cirteria for inclusion in wikipedia.
Fiddle Faddle 06:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to move this to its own page - along with, eventually, details on training, history, etc. Quadra 17:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I have moved this unsigned comment from the head of the talk page and given it a heading Fiddle Faddle 07:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC) Abreviations such as PO1, PO2, and CPO etc. are designators for ranks in the regular Canadian Forces. When using abreviations in the cadet organization it is appropriate and accurate to designate cadets as C/appointment, as in C/PO2 in the same way at LS is differentiated as LC and AB as AC.
Anyone actually want to lay claim to that? I might put something into the article to that effect; however, within the organization, it is considered a given - when one addresses an RCSC PO2, say, they use the same form as they would to a member of the CF. Typically, "Cadet" is only placed in fron of the rank in PR material, speeches to the general public (for example, introducing members of a cadet band) or where confusion might otherwise arise - for example, if a document refers to both cadet and CF non-commissioned personnel. Quadra 23:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
As a courtesy, would all users kindly mention their proposed changes on the talk page before fiddling with the article? Thanks! As a note, I'm cleaning up the flags section, and removing unnecessary repetitions of information (as an example, SCSTC in front of every Sea Cadet Summer Training Centre's name. This last is no more necessary than placing similar information in front of a regular naval vessel's name - one does not write "CPF (Canadian Patrol Frigate) HMCS Regina," therefore, one does not do so with shore establishments commissioned as ships - so-called stone frigates. Quadra 19:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I have moved this unsigned comment from the head of the talk page Quadra 21:26, 4 December 2006 (UTC) There was a wide range of information that did not reflect the official documents of the Canadian Cadet Organizations and the RC Sea Cadets in particular. All Sea Cadet Ranks have the word "cadet" i.e Chief Petty Officer Cadet First Class. Further cadets are not promoted they are appointed to rank. Please refer to QR and O Cadets. Cadets do not attend camp even though that word is used. Cadet Summer Training Centre is accurate and better reflects the training as there is little "camping" that happens and even less with the current Cadet Program Update. It is after all a "sea" cadet program. The aim of the program was incomplete. Marc Garneau is no longer an H/Capt and HRH Prince Philip is no longer Admiral of RCSC. He has relinquished that to one of his sons. To be revised on confirmation of which is correct ... Duke of York?
Kindly follow Wikipedia etiquette and sign your name! I'm a former cadet and currently an adult staff member of the program, so don't presume to lecture, especially anonymously, on the program. If you wish to make a major change, kindly bring it up on the discussion page - there is a reason for how I've presented the information. As far as can be determined, Philip is still Admiral. If anyone has official-source material re: Marc Garneau, please link. Until then, the appointment will remain on the page. Quadra 19:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
As a side note to Bloggins that has been editing the page, the intent of this page is to represent the actuality of the organization, not to describe how things would be IAW all the regs. Where there is a significant and meaningful difference between regs and common practice, that may be noted; however, at all times, this article should reflect actual practice, not CATO or QR&O(Cdt). Quadra 17:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll be moving almost all of the training information, including the current ranks chart, to Royal Canadian Sea Cadet Training. I think that a small rank chart will suffice for the main page, along with one-para descriptions of the summer and winter training regimes. The info on the camps will remain unchanged, until such time as I or someone else can get their individual pages going. Much of the Corps info will also move to the "Training" page, especially "Other Groups." Quadra 20:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
The language used on the page should reflect the official terminology and source documents of CF/DND and the Leagues. ie. the aim (singular) of the program as in QR an O cadets. The relationships between the CF and the Leagues etc.
The long disertation in advance of the rank chart is not necessary if the correct nominclature was used throughout rather than the colloquialisms. In the interests of not messing with the graphics coding it is left it as is, but subject to review. Why would it be correct to have Cadet in the french language and not in English. It would better reflect on the program if the english was corrected to the official terms. Considerable discussion goes on between the CF and Leagues in this regard and consistency serves everyone best. The edits are founded in a profound knowledge of the cadet program, it's history, place in the public domain and current administration. They are not done lightly. Cheers.
p.s. Mr. Garneau was removed from the CMS Hon Capt page about a year ago. 24.108.176.42 04:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
No and not likely to be without considerable input from the League. The last H/Capt appointed was Senator Hugh Segal
That it looks bad would be a personal opinion. The CF runs Army Cadet, Sea Cadet and Air Cadet Summer Training Centres. That is the official nomenclature and should be reflected as such..if the article is to have any credibility.
Therefore, the primary information used will be the colloquial language of the RCSC, with, as I've mentioned before, any major differing regulations or what-not mentioned. This is an encyclopedic article, not a press release. The dissertation stays.
It purports to be a "encyclodedic" the definition of which is knowledge, information, comprehensive. Cadet is comprehensive in english and french and represents knowledge rather than perception. The relationship between the CF and the Leagues is more than an affiliation. The CF pays the bills. The language used by both the CF/DND is sponsor.
The cadet program does not have a shooting program. Anyone can go on a range and shoot... The program teaches firearms safety and marksmanship. The words are important in today's world of mixing teens and guns in not considered positive. Anyone who wants to learn more about the Lee Enfield can search it. Its history and attachment to WWII and Korea not relevant to the contemperary cadet program. I need to dredge up the model numbers for everything. Also, is anyone still conducting large-bore marksmanship? I've seen the occasional RSO qualified for it. Army cadets can fire C-7s under controled conditions found in CATO.
Oh, yeah - would you please get an account? Quadra 16:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The public posture is ... Royal Canadian Sea Army and Air Cadets is a national youth program sponsored in partnership by the Canadian Forces and the civilian .... Leagues. That line is in accordance with the Leagues and CF giving each other credit.
Actually former members of he CF transfering to the CIC say 2 years service for reservists and 5 years for Reg F.
Any photo from the DND/CF may be used as long as it is credit "CF Photo" or DND Photo as it is credited from where it is copied from including cadet.net sites.
Quadra 18:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC) Quadra 17:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
+NOTE
-- 131.137.254.206 14:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's the deal: have cleaned up para one - administered by the CF, funded by DND and NL. The MOU can be gone into later, as can the precise nature of the financial arrangement (did you know, for example, that the League headquarters receive funding from DND? Will be digging out the CF documentation ASAP so it can go in the article!). However, the things some non-cadet type wants to know are: who runs it? The CF, in all the senses that matter. Who pays for it? DND and the League.
As far as range goes, we are trying (or should be, anyway) to describe what cadets actually do, and give the reader a feeling for the subject - therefore, a brief description of the rifles used makes sense. Again, we aren't a PR platform, so concerns about "teens with guns" are irrelevant - besides, I haven't even touched on the Ceremony of the Flags yet, or field guns... the former almost merits an article of its own, while the latter will be going in
Royal Canadian Sea Cadet Training.
The range program - I'll replace "shooting" with "marksmanship" - has suffered in recent years; the range closure is verifiable, so it stays. The scramble... the scramble is personal experience, and, I must admit, a hurried edit. Consider it re-written - mostly. I am attempting to avoid an edit war; however, I would ask that you wait for a response before blundering in and editing the article, as I have been attempting to do with your editing ideas.]
SCSTC is useful only as a distinguisher - if one was listing every commissioned naval entity in Canada, one might list CPF HMCS Regina, MCDV HMCS Yellowknife, and SCSTC HMCS Quadra. Outside of that circumstance, or within CATOs, I can see no real need to preface the names with SCSTC, especially given the context. Quadra 18:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Quadra 19:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC) +NOTE To repeat
Quadra 20:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Quadra 22:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
As regards the earlier conversation, adding SCSTC to every name is superfluous, as they are all part of a list named "Sea Cadet Summer Training Centres." Point taken as far as Forces usage of CPF & MCDV vs. class names; however, one wouldn't start a list called, say, "Halifax-class Frigates" and then include that designation in every para, would one? If it's not necessary there, it's not necessary with the centres. Enough and finished - convince me, with a really good reason, why this particular species of naval establishment should be handled differently - and "proper representation of the organization" does not cut it. Quadra 22:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
"So long as an article meets NPOV, and doesn't leave Wikipedia open to legal action,"
There's more to it than that!
"It is also not about representing an organisation "as it wishes to be represented", nor "as it needs to be represented",
Why then does WIKI have concerns about representing people and organizations?
It is as you say about representing in a "correct manner". 131.137.245.200 22:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, gentlemen, that was special. How do you propose to resolve this issue of to SCSTSC (or whatever) or not to SCSTSC? Because you are going to have to agree now before the protection is lifted.
If you can't agree, may I suggest using Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal? Fiddle Faddle 23:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Having looked at the Manual, especially WP:NC-SHIP, if you insist, I will put up with SCSTC bracketed after the name, in the initial mention - thus, "HMCS Quadra (SCSTC), located in Comox, BC..." but not affixed to the name elsewhere in the article. Thus, "The Marine Engineering course is offered only at HMCS Quadra..." or "During the summer, Quadra is home to over..." Sound good? Quadra 01:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Quoting from WP:NC-SHIP:
Do not use the hull classification symbol as a prefix:
- USS Nimitz (CVN-68) (not "CVN Nimitz")
And,
Do not give the hull number or other disambiguation information unless it is immediately relevant. Someone who needs to know can follow the link:
- Vanguard was Nelson's flagship at the Nile (not "Vanguard (1787) ...")
- Yorktown was sunk at the battle of Midway (not "Yorktown (CV-5) ...")
- But in ""the later Lexington (CV-16) was laid down as Cabot but renamed in honour of the earlier Lexington (CV-2)" the disambiguation information is needed. WP:NC-SHIP#Referring_to_ships
And,
You may give the ship's prefix the first time you introduce the ship, but you should not repeat it on future mentions. You need not give the prefix at all if it is obvious from the context (for example, in a list of ships of the Royal Navy there is no need to repeat "HMS" each time). WP:NC-SHIP#Referring_to_ships
And, on italics,
Put the ship's name in italics, but not the prefix or hull number:
- USS Nimitz (not "USS Nimitz" or "USS Nimitz") WP:NC-SHIP#Referring_to_ships
Hope that clears everything up. Quadra 17:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
All of what has been set forth above applies to ships afloat and not naval shore establishments where the naming conventions are somewhat different to emphasis them being “Stone Frigates.” In the RN and RCN context, originally Naval Shore establishments took their name and the title HMCS from their “depot ship.” Both the ship and the shore facility had the same name, therefore the requirement for the additional designation.
Modern examples are: Naval Reserve Division HMCS Carlton or NRD HMCS CARLTON or previously, officially styled a Naval Reserve Unit and designated NRU CARLTON w/o HMCS. Naval Radio Station HMCS ALDERGROVE or NRS HMCS ALDERGROVE (now known as CFRS ALDERGROVE.
In the case of the Sea Cadet training establishments: The following is from “Canadian Warship Names – David J. Freeman, Vanwell Publishing 2000.
“In 1956, in order to simplify a division of responsibility for sea cadet camps (which they were as they have few buildings), NSHQ decided to commission the two camps at Comox and Point Edward as Fleet Establishments for the duration of each summer. After considering (other names), the naval historian recommended Quadra and Acadia as being of similar significance on each coast and Royal Canadian Sea Cadet camps Quadra and Acadia came to be .. RCSC QUADRA, RCSC ACADIA.
In 1982, the VCDS, granted permission for three RCSC camps to be commissioned as HMC Ships MICMAC, ONTARIO, and QUEBEC, joining QUADRA and ACADIA. About the same time RCSC camps had their title changed from camps to training establishments RCSCTE"
Thus, RCSCTE HMCS QUADRA. "Training Establishment" has since modified to Sea Cadet Summer Training Centre SCSTC as the designator to differentiate the shore establishment from any floating ship past or present.
Therefore, SCSTC HMCS QUADRA etc. is correct for historical and practical purpose. That was particularly the case when the destroyer HMCS QU’APPELLE was paid off and with in a year the name transferred to SCSTC HMCS QU”APPELLE. 131.137.245.199 18:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I have asked on the Village Pump that expereinced editors come and cast an eye over this issue in order that the page may be unprotected after a consensus is reached.
If I have it correct, the dispute is about the prefix SCSTC for "Stone Frigates" and its use or non use in the article.
Quadra cites WP:NC-SHIP and the anonymous editor cites an external text. Put plain the consensus required is about the repeated use of the prefix SCTSC or the use of it once, when the establishment that is one first appears in the article.
May I suggest that interested editors show their opinions below by indicating use once or use always, giving brief rationale for either view. Fiddle Faddle 22:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Looking at Quadra's statement "Just About", above, I remain confused. I have set aside the small area below here for Quadra to show by example precisely what he means, and a different area for an alternate solution or solutions below that.
In this way we may see the differences with precision and simply discuss those and agree a solution: Fiddle Faddle 07:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Quadra, please enter your example here, between the begins and ends flags. Any extra commentary should be after "ends"
BEGINS SCSTC HMCS Quadra, located in Comox, British Columbia, operating as a Sea Cadet training facility since 1953, and a commissioned one since 1956, is the second largest cadet summer training facility. It employs close to 150 staff cadets every year, whose tasks vary from general maintenance to physical fitness to boat instruction. Quadra is the only Sea Cadet Training Centre in Canada to include all four trades plus three of the four speciality trades (Marine Engineering, Shipwright, and Silver Sail). Quadra occupies Goose Spit opposite Comox, and makes use of Highland Secondary School as an auxiliary training facility for classroom work, first aid, and music training. Cadets undergoing training as Boatswains and Marine Engineers also undergo training in damage control at CFB Esquimalt. Quadra plays host to a number of international exchange cadets. In recent years, these have included contingents. ENDS
If you have another version of the areas Quadra has shown above, please enter that version below, using "begins/ends" flags to make our life easier
BEGINS
ENDS
Please use this area to discuss the differences, one by one. Please highlight any specific differences and refer to WP:NC-SHIP to justify your position.
SCSTC HMCS Quadra, located in Comox, British Columbia, operating as a Sea Cadet training facility since 1953, and a commissioned one since 1956, is the second largest cadet summer training facility. It employs close to 150 staff cadets every year, whose tasks vary from general maintenance to physical fitness to boat instruction. HMCS Quadra is the only Sea Cadet Training Centre in Canada to include all four trades plus three of the four speciality trades (Marine Engineering, Shipwright, and Silver Sail). Quadra occupies Goose Spit opposite Comox, and makes use of Highland Secondary School as an auxiliary training facility for classroom work, first aid, and music training. Cadets undergoing training as Boatswains and Marine Engineers also undergo training in damage control at CFB Esquimalt. HMCS Quadra plays host to a number of international exchange cadets. In recent years, these have included contingents.
The committee agrees that works. 131.137.245.200
Sound good? Quadra 17:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC) A collective .... Yes 131.137.245.199 18:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Check out the to-do list! Quadra 19:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Gentlemen, Thank You for moving this into a civilised and consesnus based solution. Fiddle Faddle 20:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Better way to phrase "within the cadet organizations?" Don't want to give the impression that a cadet unit stands first overall in precedence - that's the Navy's spot! Quadra 00:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Anyone know of any cadet unit or facility still conducts .303 range training? I'm aware of the various permutations of C7 training... Quadra 05:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Some discussion has come up recently re: Adm, RCSC on Cadet World, of all places - various persons who should know suggest that the appointment that lapsed was HM Prince Philip's as Adm, SCC, the British sea cadet organization, and that his appointment with the RCSC has continued. Awaiting further information. Quadra 15:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
GA failed. Please address the following and resubmit:
Will be tossing up reformatted (no real content changes, just organization, appearance) pages for all three cadet elements, as well as the CIC and any sub-pages (i.e. Cadets Canada) off of my user page, for consideration. If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to pass 'em along! I'll post the links once I'm done. Quadra 17:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I've heard of this as a rumour-mill item only, related to the immense Cadet Program Update; does anyone have a reputable source (ie, an official document) to back this up? Would be great, if true - but is it? Quadra 19:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Image:ISCA logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 19:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I have changed the badge to the Ensign for two reasons:
The Mil Info box needs further work as in missing info where applicable, unfortunately the cadet Forces website isn't a great help.-- Pandaplodder ( talk) 17:00, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I had to change this, there are Cadet Units in the UK outside of Great Britain as in Northern Ireland, the formal correct title would be United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, but this is shortened to United Kingdom or UK (British Army units based within the UK are known as UK Land Forces for example). Still at least you didn't commit the greater sin of saying England when you meant the UK :)-- Pandaplodder ( talk) 17:00, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The image File:Cadetscanada72.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 09:53, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Talk:Canadian_Cadet_Movement#How much difference is there between the elements? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.108.210.111 ( talk) 09:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Hey Guys...I'm a current Sea Cadet and Prince Andrew is not the Admiral, that position belongs to the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Andrew is Admiral of the Sea Cadets in the UK, that's why they don't have the designation of "royal". Last I heard the Duke was our Admiral LordLewery ( talk) 02:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I've corrected, again the information that the Duke of Edinburgh is the Admiral of the Royal Canadian Sea Cadets and not the Duke of York. I hope that this false information will stop being added on this page. Ctjj.stevenson ( talk) 03:43, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
On this page there is no mention of Positive Social Relations For Youth (PSRY), which is the succesor to the CHAP (Cadet Harrasment Abuse Prevention)program. If you guys want to put up stuff about scandals, you should have a section on PSRY. Also, this page needs more content. LordLewery ( talk) 20:08, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
The discussion is taking place on the Army Cadets talk page please contribute there. That page was selected as representative of all the articles affected. Fiddle Faddle 18:04, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi Ajraddatz. I saw your edit to Royal Canadian Sea Cadets and the way you've reorganized the images into a gallery. Just thought you should know that one of those images, File:Sea Cadet Emblem res72.png, is non-free image and using non-free images in galleries is something that is generally not encourage per WP:NFG. Galleries tend to be decorative in nature, and such decorative usage of non-free images does not really provide the context required by WP:NFCC#8. Each usage of a non-free image must satisfy all 10 non-free content crtieria; failing even a single one can lead to the image being deleted. Non-free images used in galleries tend to be flagged by editors checking for such things and often end up being discussed at WP:FFD. My suggestion is that you somehow try to incorporate the image back into the article near the relevant section where it is being discussed. It also would be best if you could find reliable sources (to avoid WP:OR) which discuss the image to further strengthen it's ability to meet NFCC#8 and show that it's omission would be detrimental to the reader's understanding. Right now, the image's non-free use could be easily challenged per WP:NFCC#3a because it can be clearly seen on the flag used in the main infobox, which means there is currently really no reason to use two non-free files essentially showing the same thing and serving the same encyclopedic purpose. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 02:51, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
![]() | Royal Canadian Sea Cadets was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||
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Priority Royal Canadian Sea Cadets
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Check out the to-do list! Quadra 19:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
As a favour, would all anonymous posters kindly a) acquire an account (it's not that hard, people!) b) read the rest of the discussion page before editing the article, and c) post at the bottom of the discussion page? Thanks all! Quadra 19:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The old page Sea Cadets was a complex and multi cadet organisation page. It is being simplified and turned into a disambiguation page, with the contents being merged into their relevant organisations' pages Fiddle Faddle 11:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Sea Cadets adds nothing here. I am removing the merge suggestion, but referring that page here. Fiddle Faddle 21:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Great to have them, and thanks for putting them here. I had a look at the alignment and size issues. The 80px thumbnails seem to be a good compromise since you can read the text under the, Full pictures made the insignia dominate, rather than the text dominate the page, so I took your excellent work and I hope enhanced it.
Some alignment issues remain, but shrinking the thumbs is not going to solve it. I hope we have a good solution as it stands, but a better layout expert (of which there are many) may disagree.
Fiddle Faddle 09:59, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
There are a lot of facts here, but little about history. I've been doing an "editing cleanup" as have others (I am not a content expert), but what is needed is a content expert to provide thinsg like a timeline of the history, notable cadets and officers, something to get one's teeth into. It's encyclopaedic, and editors have worked hard, but ut's rather empty still, though valuable so far as it goes Fiddle Faddle 10:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Wow! you did a great job. I will find the historical information needed for this site. user:ctjj.stevenson
The more I look at this the more I think it is great background information, but requires a separate page. In general lists of this major length do not belong inside an article since they dominate the page. I am going to flag the top and bottom of the list with HTML comments so that it will be easy for whoever decides to split the list into a new article to split it.
Also, is the list complete?
Fiddle Faddle 16:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Why are they notable? If they are not notable, please wikify them in the ordinary list. They are only notable if there is something notable about them.
Notable means something special, not just that they exist, because we know they exist. Unless they are themselves notable there is a real danger of having the list of corps twice. I have wikified them in the list of corps instead. If they are truly notable, bring them out and highlight them as well, but better to do that in their own articles. However, just creating an article because a particular corps exists does not really meet the cirteria for inclusion in wikipedia.
Fiddle Faddle 06:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to move this to its own page - along with, eventually, details on training, history, etc. Quadra 17:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I have moved this unsigned comment from the head of the talk page and given it a heading Fiddle Faddle 07:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC) Abreviations such as PO1, PO2, and CPO etc. are designators for ranks in the regular Canadian Forces. When using abreviations in the cadet organization it is appropriate and accurate to designate cadets as C/appointment, as in C/PO2 in the same way at LS is differentiated as LC and AB as AC.
Anyone actually want to lay claim to that? I might put something into the article to that effect; however, within the organization, it is considered a given - when one addresses an RCSC PO2, say, they use the same form as they would to a member of the CF. Typically, "Cadet" is only placed in fron of the rank in PR material, speeches to the general public (for example, introducing members of a cadet band) or where confusion might otherwise arise - for example, if a document refers to both cadet and CF non-commissioned personnel. Quadra 23:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
As a courtesy, would all users kindly mention their proposed changes on the talk page before fiddling with the article? Thanks! As a note, I'm cleaning up the flags section, and removing unnecessary repetitions of information (as an example, SCSTC in front of every Sea Cadet Summer Training Centre's name. This last is no more necessary than placing similar information in front of a regular naval vessel's name - one does not write "CPF (Canadian Patrol Frigate) HMCS Regina," therefore, one does not do so with shore establishments commissioned as ships - so-called stone frigates. Quadra 19:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I have moved this unsigned comment from the head of the talk page Quadra 21:26, 4 December 2006 (UTC) There was a wide range of information that did not reflect the official documents of the Canadian Cadet Organizations and the RC Sea Cadets in particular. All Sea Cadet Ranks have the word "cadet" i.e Chief Petty Officer Cadet First Class. Further cadets are not promoted they are appointed to rank. Please refer to QR and O Cadets. Cadets do not attend camp even though that word is used. Cadet Summer Training Centre is accurate and better reflects the training as there is little "camping" that happens and even less with the current Cadet Program Update. It is after all a "sea" cadet program. The aim of the program was incomplete. Marc Garneau is no longer an H/Capt and HRH Prince Philip is no longer Admiral of RCSC. He has relinquished that to one of his sons. To be revised on confirmation of which is correct ... Duke of York?
Kindly follow Wikipedia etiquette and sign your name! I'm a former cadet and currently an adult staff member of the program, so don't presume to lecture, especially anonymously, on the program. If you wish to make a major change, kindly bring it up on the discussion page - there is a reason for how I've presented the information. As far as can be determined, Philip is still Admiral. If anyone has official-source material re: Marc Garneau, please link. Until then, the appointment will remain on the page. Quadra 19:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
As a side note to Bloggins that has been editing the page, the intent of this page is to represent the actuality of the organization, not to describe how things would be IAW all the regs. Where there is a significant and meaningful difference between regs and common practice, that may be noted; however, at all times, this article should reflect actual practice, not CATO or QR&O(Cdt). Quadra 17:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll be moving almost all of the training information, including the current ranks chart, to Royal Canadian Sea Cadet Training. I think that a small rank chart will suffice for the main page, along with one-para descriptions of the summer and winter training regimes. The info on the camps will remain unchanged, until such time as I or someone else can get their individual pages going. Much of the Corps info will also move to the "Training" page, especially "Other Groups." Quadra 20:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
The language used on the page should reflect the official terminology and source documents of CF/DND and the Leagues. ie. the aim (singular) of the program as in QR an O cadets. The relationships between the CF and the Leagues etc.
The long disertation in advance of the rank chart is not necessary if the correct nominclature was used throughout rather than the colloquialisms. In the interests of not messing with the graphics coding it is left it as is, but subject to review. Why would it be correct to have Cadet in the french language and not in English. It would better reflect on the program if the english was corrected to the official terms. Considerable discussion goes on between the CF and Leagues in this regard and consistency serves everyone best. The edits are founded in a profound knowledge of the cadet program, it's history, place in the public domain and current administration. They are not done lightly. Cheers.
p.s. Mr. Garneau was removed from the CMS Hon Capt page about a year ago. 24.108.176.42 04:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
No and not likely to be without considerable input from the League. The last H/Capt appointed was Senator Hugh Segal
That it looks bad would be a personal opinion. The CF runs Army Cadet, Sea Cadet and Air Cadet Summer Training Centres. That is the official nomenclature and should be reflected as such..if the article is to have any credibility.
Therefore, the primary information used will be the colloquial language of the RCSC, with, as I've mentioned before, any major differing regulations or what-not mentioned. This is an encyclopedic article, not a press release. The dissertation stays.
It purports to be a "encyclodedic" the definition of which is knowledge, information, comprehensive. Cadet is comprehensive in english and french and represents knowledge rather than perception. The relationship between the CF and the Leagues is more than an affiliation. The CF pays the bills. The language used by both the CF/DND is sponsor.
The cadet program does not have a shooting program. Anyone can go on a range and shoot... The program teaches firearms safety and marksmanship. The words are important in today's world of mixing teens and guns in not considered positive. Anyone who wants to learn more about the Lee Enfield can search it. Its history and attachment to WWII and Korea not relevant to the contemperary cadet program. I need to dredge up the model numbers for everything. Also, is anyone still conducting large-bore marksmanship? I've seen the occasional RSO qualified for it. Army cadets can fire C-7s under controled conditions found in CATO.
Oh, yeah - would you please get an account? Quadra 16:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The public posture is ... Royal Canadian Sea Army and Air Cadets is a national youth program sponsored in partnership by the Canadian Forces and the civilian .... Leagues. That line is in accordance with the Leagues and CF giving each other credit.
Actually former members of he CF transfering to the CIC say 2 years service for reservists and 5 years for Reg F.
Any photo from the DND/CF may be used as long as it is credit "CF Photo" or DND Photo as it is credited from where it is copied from including cadet.net sites.
Quadra 18:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC) Quadra 17:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
+NOTE
-- 131.137.254.206 14:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's the deal: have cleaned up para one - administered by the CF, funded by DND and NL. The MOU can be gone into later, as can the precise nature of the financial arrangement (did you know, for example, that the League headquarters receive funding from DND? Will be digging out the CF documentation ASAP so it can go in the article!). However, the things some non-cadet type wants to know are: who runs it? The CF, in all the senses that matter. Who pays for it? DND and the League.
As far as range goes, we are trying (or should be, anyway) to describe what cadets actually do, and give the reader a feeling for the subject - therefore, a brief description of the rifles used makes sense. Again, we aren't a PR platform, so concerns about "teens with guns" are irrelevant - besides, I haven't even touched on the Ceremony of the Flags yet, or field guns... the former almost merits an article of its own, while the latter will be going in
Royal Canadian Sea Cadet Training.
The range program - I'll replace "shooting" with "marksmanship" - has suffered in recent years; the range closure is verifiable, so it stays. The scramble... the scramble is personal experience, and, I must admit, a hurried edit. Consider it re-written - mostly. I am attempting to avoid an edit war; however, I would ask that you wait for a response before blundering in and editing the article, as I have been attempting to do with your editing ideas.]
SCSTC is useful only as a distinguisher - if one was listing every commissioned naval entity in Canada, one might list CPF HMCS Regina, MCDV HMCS Yellowknife, and SCSTC HMCS Quadra. Outside of that circumstance, or within CATOs, I can see no real need to preface the names with SCSTC, especially given the context. Quadra 18:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Quadra 19:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC) +NOTE To repeat
Quadra 20:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Quadra 22:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
As regards the earlier conversation, adding SCSTC to every name is superfluous, as they are all part of a list named "Sea Cadet Summer Training Centres." Point taken as far as Forces usage of CPF & MCDV vs. class names; however, one wouldn't start a list called, say, "Halifax-class Frigates" and then include that designation in every para, would one? If it's not necessary there, it's not necessary with the centres. Enough and finished - convince me, with a really good reason, why this particular species of naval establishment should be handled differently - and "proper representation of the organization" does not cut it. Quadra 22:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
"So long as an article meets NPOV, and doesn't leave Wikipedia open to legal action,"
There's more to it than that!
"It is also not about representing an organisation "as it wishes to be represented", nor "as it needs to be represented",
Why then does WIKI have concerns about representing people and organizations?
It is as you say about representing in a "correct manner". 131.137.245.200 22:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, gentlemen, that was special. How do you propose to resolve this issue of to SCSTSC (or whatever) or not to SCSTSC? Because you are going to have to agree now before the protection is lifted.
If you can't agree, may I suggest using Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal? Fiddle Faddle 23:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Having looked at the Manual, especially WP:NC-SHIP, if you insist, I will put up with SCSTC bracketed after the name, in the initial mention - thus, "HMCS Quadra (SCSTC), located in Comox, BC..." but not affixed to the name elsewhere in the article. Thus, "The Marine Engineering course is offered only at HMCS Quadra..." or "During the summer, Quadra is home to over..." Sound good? Quadra 01:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Quoting from WP:NC-SHIP:
Do not use the hull classification symbol as a prefix:
- USS Nimitz (CVN-68) (not "CVN Nimitz")
And,
Do not give the hull number or other disambiguation information unless it is immediately relevant. Someone who needs to know can follow the link:
- Vanguard was Nelson's flagship at the Nile (not "Vanguard (1787) ...")
- Yorktown was sunk at the battle of Midway (not "Yorktown (CV-5) ...")
- But in ""the later Lexington (CV-16) was laid down as Cabot but renamed in honour of the earlier Lexington (CV-2)" the disambiguation information is needed. WP:NC-SHIP#Referring_to_ships
And,
You may give the ship's prefix the first time you introduce the ship, but you should not repeat it on future mentions. You need not give the prefix at all if it is obvious from the context (for example, in a list of ships of the Royal Navy there is no need to repeat "HMS" each time). WP:NC-SHIP#Referring_to_ships
And, on italics,
Put the ship's name in italics, but not the prefix or hull number:
- USS Nimitz (not "USS Nimitz" or "USS Nimitz") WP:NC-SHIP#Referring_to_ships
Hope that clears everything up. Quadra 17:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
All of what has been set forth above applies to ships afloat and not naval shore establishments where the naming conventions are somewhat different to emphasis them being “Stone Frigates.” In the RN and RCN context, originally Naval Shore establishments took their name and the title HMCS from their “depot ship.” Both the ship and the shore facility had the same name, therefore the requirement for the additional designation.
Modern examples are: Naval Reserve Division HMCS Carlton or NRD HMCS CARLTON or previously, officially styled a Naval Reserve Unit and designated NRU CARLTON w/o HMCS. Naval Radio Station HMCS ALDERGROVE or NRS HMCS ALDERGROVE (now known as CFRS ALDERGROVE.
In the case of the Sea Cadet training establishments: The following is from “Canadian Warship Names – David J. Freeman, Vanwell Publishing 2000.
“In 1956, in order to simplify a division of responsibility for sea cadet camps (which they were as they have few buildings), NSHQ decided to commission the two camps at Comox and Point Edward as Fleet Establishments for the duration of each summer. After considering (other names), the naval historian recommended Quadra and Acadia as being of similar significance on each coast and Royal Canadian Sea Cadet camps Quadra and Acadia came to be .. RCSC QUADRA, RCSC ACADIA.
In 1982, the VCDS, granted permission for three RCSC camps to be commissioned as HMC Ships MICMAC, ONTARIO, and QUEBEC, joining QUADRA and ACADIA. About the same time RCSC camps had their title changed from camps to training establishments RCSCTE"
Thus, RCSCTE HMCS QUADRA. "Training Establishment" has since modified to Sea Cadet Summer Training Centre SCSTC as the designator to differentiate the shore establishment from any floating ship past or present.
Therefore, SCSTC HMCS QUADRA etc. is correct for historical and practical purpose. That was particularly the case when the destroyer HMCS QU’APPELLE was paid off and with in a year the name transferred to SCSTC HMCS QU”APPELLE. 131.137.245.199 18:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I have asked on the Village Pump that expereinced editors come and cast an eye over this issue in order that the page may be unprotected after a consensus is reached.
If I have it correct, the dispute is about the prefix SCSTC for "Stone Frigates" and its use or non use in the article.
Quadra cites WP:NC-SHIP and the anonymous editor cites an external text. Put plain the consensus required is about the repeated use of the prefix SCTSC or the use of it once, when the establishment that is one first appears in the article.
May I suggest that interested editors show their opinions below by indicating use once or use always, giving brief rationale for either view. Fiddle Faddle 22:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Looking at Quadra's statement "Just About", above, I remain confused. I have set aside the small area below here for Quadra to show by example precisely what he means, and a different area for an alternate solution or solutions below that.
In this way we may see the differences with precision and simply discuss those and agree a solution: Fiddle Faddle 07:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Quadra, please enter your example here, between the begins and ends flags. Any extra commentary should be after "ends"
BEGINS SCSTC HMCS Quadra, located in Comox, British Columbia, operating as a Sea Cadet training facility since 1953, and a commissioned one since 1956, is the second largest cadet summer training facility. It employs close to 150 staff cadets every year, whose tasks vary from general maintenance to physical fitness to boat instruction. Quadra is the only Sea Cadet Training Centre in Canada to include all four trades plus three of the four speciality trades (Marine Engineering, Shipwright, and Silver Sail). Quadra occupies Goose Spit opposite Comox, and makes use of Highland Secondary School as an auxiliary training facility for classroom work, first aid, and music training. Cadets undergoing training as Boatswains and Marine Engineers also undergo training in damage control at CFB Esquimalt. Quadra plays host to a number of international exchange cadets. In recent years, these have included contingents. ENDS
If you have another version of the areas Quadra has shown above, please enter that version below, using "begins/ends" flags to make our life easier
BEGINS
ENDS
Please use this area to discuss the differences, one by one. Please highlight any specific differences and refer to WP:NC-SHIP to justify your position.
SCSTC HMCS Quadra, located in Comox, British Columbia, operating as a Sea Cadet training facility since 1953, and a commissioned one since 1956, is the second largest cadet summer training facility. It employs close to 150 staff cadets every year, whose tasks vary from general maintenance to physical fitness to boat instruction. HMCS Quadra is the only Sea Cadet Training Centre in Canada to include all four trades plus three of the four speciality trades (Marine Engineering, Shipwright, and Silver Sail). Quadra occupies Goose Spit opposite Comox, and makes use of Highland Secondary School as an auxiliary training facility for classroom work, first aid, and music training. Cadets undergoing training as Boatswains and Marine Engineers also undergo training in damage control at CFB Esquimalt. HMCS Quadra plays host to a number of international exchange cadets. In recent years, these have included contingents.
The committee agrees that works. 131.137.245.200
Sound good? Quadra 17:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC) A collective .... Yes 131.137.245.199 18:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Check out the to-do list! Quadra 19:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Gentlemen, Thank You for moving this into a civilised and consesnus based solution. Fiddle Faddle 20:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Better way to phrase "within the cadet organizations?" Don't want to give the impression that a cadet unit stands first overall in precedence - that's the Navy's spot! Quadra 00:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Anyone know of any cadet unit or facility still conducts .303 range training? I'm aware of the various permutations of C7 training... Quadra 05:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Some discussion has come up recently re: Adm, RCSC on Cadet World, of all places - various persons who should know suggest that the appointment that lapsed was HM Prince Philip's as Adm, SCC, the British sea cadet organization, and that his appointment with the RCSC has continued. Awaiting further information. Quadra 15:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
GA failed. Please address the following and resubmit:
Will be tossing up reformatted (no real content changes, just organization, appearance) pages for all three cadet elements, as well as the CIC and any sub-pages (i.e. Cadets Canada) off of my user page, for consideration. If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to pass 'em along! I'll post the links once I'm done. Quadra 17:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I've heard of this as a rumour-mill item only, related to the immense Cadet Program Update; does anyone have a reputable source (ie, an official document) to back this up? Would be great, if true - but is it? Quadra 19:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 19:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I have changed the badge to the Ensign for two reasons:
The Mil Info box needs further work as in missing info where applicable, unfortunately the cadet Forces website isn't a great help.-- Pandaplodder ( talk) 17:00, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I had to change this, there are Cadet Units in the UK outside of Great Britain as in Northern Ireland, the formal correct title would be United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, but this is shortened to United Kingdom or UK (British Army units based within the UK are known as UK Land Forces for example). Still at least you didn't commit the greater sin of saying England when you meant the UK :)-- Pandaplodder ( talk) 17:00, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The image File:Cadetscanada72.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
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Talk:Canadian_Cadet_Movement#How much difference is there between the elements? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.108.210.111 ( talk) 09:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Hey Guys...I'm a current Sea Cadet and Prince Andrew is not the Admiral, that position belongs to the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Andrew is Admiral of the Sea Cadets in the UK, that's why they don't have the designation of "royal". Last I heard the Duke was our Admiral LordLewery ( talk) 02:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I've corrected, again the information that the Duke of Edinburgh is the Admiral of the Royal Canadian Sea Cadets and not the Duke of York. I hope that this false information will stop being added on this page. Ctjj.stevenson ( talk) 03:43, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
On this page there is no mention of Positive Social Relations For Youth (PSRY), which is the succesor to the CHAP (Cadet Harrasment Abuse Prevention)program. If you guys want to put up stuff about scandals, you should have a section on PSRY. Also, this page needs more content. LordLewery ( talk) 20:08, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
The discussion is taking place on the Army Cadets talk page please contribute there. That page was selected as representative of all the articles affected. Fiddle Faddle 18:04, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi Ajraddatz. I saw your edit to Royal Canadian Sea Cadets and the way you've reorganized the images into a gallery. Just thought you should know that one of those images, File:Sea Cadet Emblem res72.png, is non-free image and using non-free images in galleries is something that is generally not encourage per WP:NFG. Galleries tend to be decorative in nature, and such decorative usage of non-free images does not really provide the context required by WP:NFCC#8. Each usage of a non-free image must satisfy all 10 non-free content crtieria; failing even a single one can lead to the image being deleted. Non-free images used in galleries tend to be flagged by editors checking for such things and often end up being discussed at WP:FFD. My suggestion is that you somehow try to incorporate the image back into the article near the relevant section where it is being discussed. It also would be best if you could find reliable sources (to avoid WP:OR) which discuss the image to further strengthen it's ability to meet NFCC#8 and show that it's omission would be detrimental to the reader's understanding. Right now, the image's non-free use could be easily challenged per WP:NFCC#3a because it can be clearly seen on the flag used in the main infobox, which means there is currently really no reason to use two non-free files essentially showing the same thing and serving the same encyclopedic purpose. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 02:51, 23 March 2016 (UTC)