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User:PlatinumClipper96, you made a bold edit yesterday which I reverted because it goes against the consensus (and removes the comment marking that fact) that Romford is no longer in Essex. You have now reverted your edit back in. Per
WP:BRD, this needs discussion before retrying your edit. The edit you are proposing is misleading in saying that Romford forms (present tense) part of the "Historic County of Essex". It is correct to say that historically Romford was in the county of Essex but it is misleading to say it is currently in something called a "Historic County" with a Wikilink. This leads some readers to the assumption that Romford remains in an immutable Essex boundary. It furthers misunderstanding. Per
WP:UKTOWNS as you quote, we should mention the fact that Romford was once in Essex somewhere in the lead, but per
WP:UKCOUNTIES which you don't quote, all mention must be in past tense. I quote from there: Editors must be mindful of fostering and/or introducing anachronism into former county articles. Use language that asserts past tense - We do not take the minority view that the historic counties still exist with the former boundaries. Continued use of the name of the county can be explained in the "Legacy" section
. And also: fundamental part of this guide is to reaffirm the long established position that we do not take the view that the historic/ancient/traditional counties still exist with the former boundaries
.
This is not something you are just trying here, you also tried a similar edit at Croydon that I watch, and you also reverted your edit back in there too. I now invite you to self revert and await consensus. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 08:22, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
It is a fact that Essex is in the historic county of Essex.That is not a fact, that is an opinion, as is
historic counties still exist. It is, per our guidelines, a minority opinion and Wikipedia does not take that view in wikivoice. You say the guidelines need an update - you are welcome to start an RFC on the matter. While the guidelines remain as they are, we should follow those guidelines in these articles.
County: use the ceremonial county (England, Wales and Northern Ireland only) where not clear from the administrative district.so that is Greater London for Romford. Matter settled. Sources of impeccable quality are clearly available. Except, of course, that guideline then says that under History we should add
Historic county (if in England or Wales and if different from ceremonial county). Note that this is not given equivalence with the county. It is in the history, where we are talking about the past.
Use language that asserts past tense - We do not take the minority view that the historic counties still exist with the former boundaries. The guidelines are perfectly clear. Romford is in Greater London and it was in the historical county of Essex. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 20:55, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
Yawn, here we go again... I will assume good faithWell if you felt the need to say it.
Policy overrides guidelines. We look to what RSSs say, yes but this is an attempt to reverse the burden of evidence. We have agreed guidelines on how to write these articles and the edit in question wants to go against the guidelines. The burden on showing from RSS why the guideline should be ignored lies with those asserting the edit. Also, I question whether this is being prosecuted in the right place. The only question here is why Romford should be described as still being in a historic county as an exception to the guidelines. Exceptions exist, but we need an RSS to show why Romford is such an exception. That is the only issue for this page. It seems to me that your beef is with the guideline itself. You wish to assert historic counties are immutable and that once a place has been in one it will forever more be in that historic county (or have I misunderstood you?) If you wish to assert this view on pages, you need to make the case to change the guidelines. Open an RFC or at least a discussion on the guideline pages themselves and prosecute your case there with reference to reliable sources. If the guidelines change then pages can be edited in line with the new guidelines.
This topic should be discussed on the uk geography/counties talk page. A problem has been that whenever this topic comes up it is usually debated in the talk page of a particular place, and then gets lost. My gripe is with the guidelines that state that HC no longer exist. That is a gross error of fact that creates very many complications throughout countless articles, Romford now being just one of them. Evidence they still exist? Here is the usual reply to that: turn the question around - show us when where and how they were ever ended. In fact, if you go back to the 1889 act that sort of began this problem (you could go back to earlier events but 1889 will do for now) then the historic counties were not just 'not ended' but they were specifically kept intact (by the creation of new and distinct units called administrative counties. There relevance to any given place varies on a case by case basis. The closest we can get to saying the HC no longer exists is to say , for a given place, it is obsolete, ie not officially ended but no longer of any practical relevance. But, for other places the HC is very relevant. The blanket statement in the guidelines that the HC no longer exist, as well as being wrong, makes no effort to cater for the various nuances of relevance throughout the UK. I am still perplexed by editors who seemingly fail to grasp that a place can be in more than one place at the same time: Romford is in GL; is in HC Essex; is in England; is in the UK. It often looks as if some editors think people like me are trying to pretend that Greater London doesn't really exist (in any of its meanings). It is correct to say that Romford was in Essex but is now in GL, but only if we are talking about local govt units. That qualifier is rarely used so we end up with the ambiguous phrase that Romford was in Essex but is now in GL. Roger 8 Roger
PLEASE GO TO THE TALKPAGE BEFORE CHANGING THIS [East London] TO ESSEX.The primary descriptor of this article *should* be east London, and the primary county mentioned as a geographical descriptor *should* be the current ceremonial county/administrative area in which it is located - Greater London. I removed this note as my edit reintroduced Essex to the lead as the location's historic county, as stated in WP:UKTOWNS guidance, and there had not been any attempt to change the primary descriptor.
I do my best to abide by WP:BRD- But you didn't. You reverted in your challenged edit in its entirety as soon as you got here again, and without gaining any kind of consensus. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 14:28, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
Historically, Romford was a market town in the county of Essex, and formed the administrative centre of the liberty of Havering before that liberty was dissolved in 1892... Romford significantly expanded and increased in population, becoming a municipal borough in 1937 and was incorporated into Greater London in 1965
NebY, I submit your reasoning is flawed, and like the other specious phrase that Romford was historically in Essex, it fails on closer examination. The guidelines don't work because they are wrong and are full of illogical consequences; the poll tax didn't work because many people thought it was unfair and resisted paying it; locking people up for burglaries works because it is accepted as fair by almost everyone, burglars included. What would be unfair and cause the justice system to fail is if the penalty were, say, decapitation. You are comparing apples with pears. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 10:26, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
"guidelines ... North Korea ... Vladimir Putin ... poll tax ... poll tax ... decapitation ... you are comparing apples with pears."Don't dodge and filibuster. If you want the guidelines scrapped or changed, start an RFC. NebY ( talk) 15:57, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
"there is clear consensus and awareness at Talk:Romford#Romford is not in Essex that inserting the historic county of Essex into the first paragraph is contrary to Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements". I would disagree that any such consensus has been established here. I would disagree that inserting the historic county of Essex into the first paragraph violates the guidelines you cite. I would suggest the new wording, which instead reads
"Historically, Romford was a market town in the county of Essex"is in contrast to the guidelines. It merely states that Romford was in Essex, not that Essex is the historic county. There are plenty of abolished counties that are not historic counties that settlements once formed part of. Avon, for instance, is not a historic county. It also implies Romford is no longer a market town, which is incorrect. The guidelines you cite also do not state that the historic county should be mentioned in a specific part of the lead - just that it should form part of the lead. PlatinumClipper96 ( talk) 18:41, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
See here [2] Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 07:12, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
![]() | Romford has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
|
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
User:PlatinumClipper96, you made a bold edit yesterday which I reverted because it goes against the consensus (and removes the comment marking that fact) that Romford is no longer in Essex. You have now reverted your edit back in. Per
WP:BRD, this needs discussion before retrying your edit. The edit you are proposing is misleading in saying that Romford forms (present tense) part of the "Historic County of Essex". It is correct to say that historically Romford was in the county of Essex but it is misleading to say it is currently in something called a "Historic County" with a Wikilink. This leads some readers to the assumption that Romford remains in an immutable Essex boundary. It furthers misunderstanding. Per
WP:UKTOWNS as you quote, we should mention the fact that Romford was once in Essex somewhere in the lead, but per
WP:UKCOUNTIES which you don't quote, all mention must be in past tense. I quote from there: Editors must be mindful of fostering and/or introducing anachronism into former county articles. Use language that asserts past tense - We do not take the minority view that the historic counties still exist with the former boundaries. Continued use of the name of the county can be explained in the "Legacy" section
. And also: fundamental part of this guide is to reaffirm the long established position that we do not take the view that the historic/ancient/traditional counties still exist with the former boundaries
.
This is not something you are just trying here, you also tried a similar edit at Croydon that I watch, and you also reverted your edit back in there too. I now invite you to self revert and await consensus. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 08:22, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
It is a fact that Essex is in the historic county of Essex.That is not a fact, that is an opinion, as is
historic counties still exist. It is, per our guidelines, a minority opinion and Wikipedia does not take that view in wikivoice. You say the guidelines need an update - you are welcome to start an RFC on the matter. While the guidelines remain as they are, we should follow those guidelines in these articles.
County: use the ceremonial county (England, Wales and Northern Ireland only) where not clear from the administrative district.so that is Greater London for Romford. Matter settled. Sources of impeccable quality are clearly available. Except, of course, that guideline then says that under History we should add
Historic county (if in England or Wales and if different from ceremonial county). Note that this is not given equivalence with the county. It is in the history, where we are talking about the past.
Use language that asserts past tense - We do not take the minority view that the historic counties still exist with the former boundaries. The guidelines are perfectly clear. Romford is in Greater London and it was in the historical county of Essex. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 20:55, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
Yawn, here we go again... I will assume good faithWell if you felt the need to say it.
Policy overrides guidelines. We look to what RSSs say, yes but this is an attempt to reverse the burden of evidence. We have agreed guidelines on how to write these articles and the edit in question wants to go against the guidelines. The burden on showing from RSS why the guideline should be ignored lies with those asserting the edit. Also, I question whether this is being prosecuted in the right place. The only question here is why Romford should be described as still being in a historic county as an exception to the guidelines. Exceptions exist, but we need an RSS to show why Romford is such an exception. That is the only issue for this page. It seems to me that your beef is with the guideline itself. You wish to assert historic counties are immutable and that once a place has been in one it will forever more be in that historic county (or have I misunderstood you?) If you wish to assert this view on pages, you need to make the case to change the guidelines. Open an RFC or at least a discussion on the guideline pages themselves and prosecute your case there with reference to reliable sources. If the guidelines change then pages can be edited in line with the new guidelines.
This topic should be discussed on the uk geography/counties talk page. A problem has been that whenever this topic comes up it is usually debated in the talk page of a particular place, and then gets lost. My gripe is with the guidelines that state that HC no longer exist. That is a gross error of fact that creates very many complications throughout countless articles, Romford now being just one of them. Evidence they still exist? Here is the usual reply to that: turn the question around - show us when where and how they were ever ended. In fact, if you go back to the 1889 act that sort of began this problem (you could go back to earlier events but 1889 will do for now) then the historic counties were not just 'not ended' but they were specifically kept intact (by the creation of new and distinct units called administrative counties. There relevance to any given place varies on a case by case basis. The closest we can get to saying the HC no longer exists is to say , for a given place, it is obsolete, ie not officially ended but no longer of any practical relevance. But, for other places the HC is very relevant. The blanket statement in the guidelines that the HC no longer exist, as well as being wrong, makes no effort to cater for the various nuances of relevance throughout the UK. I am still perplexed by editors who seemingly fail to grasp that a place can be in more than one place at the same time: Romford is in GL; is in HC Essex; is in England; is in the UK. It often looks as if some editors think people like me are trying to pretend that Greater London doesn't really exist (in any of its meanings). It is correct to say that Romford was in Essex but is now in GL, but only if we are talking about local govt units. That qualifier is rarely used so we end up with the ambiguous phrase that Romford was in Essex but is now in GL. Roger 8 Roger
PLEASE GO TO THE TALKPAGE BEFORE CHANGING THIS [East London] TO ESSEX.The primary descriptor of this article *should* be east London, and the primary county mentioned as a geographical descriptor *should* be the current ceremonial county/administrative area in which it is located - Greater London. I removed this note as my edit reintroduced Essex to the lead as the location's historic county, as stated in WP:UKTOWNS guidance, and there had not been any attempt to change the primary descriptor.
I do my best to abide by WP:BRD- But you didn't. You reverted in your challenged edit in its entirety as soon as you got here again, and without gaining any kind of consensus. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 14:28, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
Historically, Romford was a market town in the county of Essex, and formed the administrative centre of the liberty of Havering before that liberty was dissolved in 1892... Romford significantly expanded and increased in population, becoming a municipal borough in 1937 and was incorporated into Greater London in 1965
NebY, I submit your reasoning is flawed, and like the other specious phrase that Romford was historically in Essex, it fails on closer examination. The guidelines don't work because they are wrong and are full of illogical consequences; the poll tax didn't work because many people thought it was unfair and resisted paying it; locking people up for burglaries works because it is accepted as fair by almost everyone, burglars included. What would be unfair and cause the justice system to fail is if the penalty were, say, decapitation. You are comparing apples with pears. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 10:26, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
"guidelines ... North Korea ... Vladimir Putin ... poll tax ... poll tax ... decapitation ... you are comparing apples with pears."Don't dodge and filibuster. If you want the guidelines scrapped or changed, start an RFC. NebY ( talk) 15:57, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
"there is clear consensus and awareness at Talk:Romford#Romford is not in Essex that inserting the historic county of Essex into the first paragraph is contrary to Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements". I would disagree that any such consensus has been established here. I would disagree that inserting the historic county of Essex into the first paragraph violates the guidelines you cite. I would suggest the new wording, which instead reads
"Historically, Romford was a market town in the county of Essex"is in contrast to the guidelines. It merely states that Romford was in Essex, not that Essex is the historic county. There are plenty of abolished counties that are not historic counties that settlements once formed part of. Avon, for instance, is not a historic county. It also implies Romford is no longer a market town, which is incorrect. The guidelines you cite also do not state that the historic county should be mentioned in a specific part of the lead - just that it should form part of the lead. PlatinumClipper96 ( talk) 18:41, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
See here [2] Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 07:12, 23 November 2022 (UTC)