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bogdan, if you registered yourself as "orthodox" in the census, then you are an orthdox (not atheist) for the sake of this page. We are talking about offcial figures here, not your original research. How do you know that there are "many" people in your alleged situation? How do <it>we</it> know that you did indeed declare yourself orthodox? Please leave original research and personal feelings aside when contributing here.
As for the statistics you provide about church attendance, they come from an obscure poll conducted by an NGO, while the way people define themselves comes from the official census. Most foreigners visiting Romania notice the high church attendance rate (churches are packed and so on). Should the NGO's opinion deserve much space in the article? I believe not. Icar 09:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, the pic was deleted, and that was in the cards - since several photos were not at all PD. If someone should want to reconstruct it somehow, here's some suggestions to fill in the non-PD gaps:
Now, as I have said, I find the whole idea of such group portraits to stand for entire nations to be terribly maladroit and inextricably POVed. But, if you have to have one, do it right. Dahn 20:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll have to agree with Dahn: it is better to not have any photo at all. Nice to read on Marthe. I didn't know about her. -- Thus Spake Anittas 10:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, popor is a word reconstructed in 19th century from Latin populus and Italian popolo. The older Romanian word was neam, but as this is borrowed from Hungarian, the nationalists didn't like it for obvious reasons. There's even older word, nat, from Latin natio, nationis (cognate with modern borrowing naţiune), but this was confined as a regional word in Banat, unknown throughout the rest of the country, which apparently replaced it with neam. bogdan 15:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Again, I find the information included there problematic. Can someone give me a source which links Romanians to Italians? That assumption is most likely based on the idea that Romans are the common ancestors of the two people. I'm don't want to argue that point, but if that were the case, then all Latin people in Europe should be linked to one another. That, of course, would be a stupid thing to do. The other problem is to add Moldovans as a related ethnic groups. Ethnic Moldovans are counted by most for being Romanians. Those who argue against that point would probably not settle by saying that they are a related ethnic group to Romanians; and if one wants to argue that they are not to be counted as Romanians, then that same person should source the claim that they are a related ethnic group. Basically, the two schools of tought say that Moldovans are either Romanian or not: and there is nothing in-between. There is no compromise to be made. -- Thus Spake Anittas 11:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12542743?dopt=Abstract … —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.61 ( talk) 23:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
We are missing the suffix -lea, which stands for (al lui) I think. As for -escu, isn't that suffix specifically Wallachian? -- Thus Spake Anittas 19:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
78.151.173.120 ( talk) 09:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)It's Baltic by its origin and you are much more Balts (means white people) than any other group (except Moldavians), the same is true and with Belorussians-Gudai (means white/Baltic russians, but in Lithuania they are called Gudai or herd hunters), Ukrainians (means living on the edge of the areal - it's slavic form, but comes from Baltic-Lithuanian language Pa-krastenai), Latvians (means people with boats 'Luotai'), Bulgars (comes from 'buliu varovai'=bulls' drivers, previously Bulvarai or Avarai meaning 'aviu varovai'=sheeps' drivers or sheperds) and Moldavians (means 'Maldauviai'=prayers). We together were Huns (means herd hunters) and Vandals (means water)!!! Do not forget that!!! All these names (together with Attila ('Eitila' running the office, similarly we have 'Vaidila'=a chief priest), Rugila (a rye), Uptaris (mentor/adviser), Celts (to ferry/migrate/ressetle), Goths-Gudai (herd hunters), Trakai(a cut place in the middle of the forest), Gauls-Galiai (powerful people)) are Lithuanian names/words and still in use TODAY...You CAN even check your family names I added in the main article..........Aryans=AREJAI=Ploughmen 78.151.173.120 ( talk) 09:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
There are almost 600000 romanians in Italy. The 1% of the entire italian population. [1] -- Alessandro.pasi 02:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Dapiks ( talk) 21:32, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
here is another map i found
Dapiks ( talk) 16:19, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
The first map (at http://www.halgal.com/graphics/PUR/Eurethnic.jpg) looks like Magosci's work, his historical atlas of central eastern Europe is regarded as a seminal work and reflects the latest and best scholarship on the region.— PētersV ( talk) 03:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I have a question for Dahn: If you care so much for census data, why do you agree to leave
Targu Mures in a Hungarian majority (blue) zone in the envsec map? My impression is that the last census clearly places Targu Mures in Romanian majority zone. Are you really interested in presenting census data, or in demolishing "Romanian national myths"?
Dpotop (
talk)
08:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The map [10] seems OK to me. It's not even WP:OR, nor WP:RS, because it's census data (which we can provide here regardless of the reliability of the one who made the graphical presentation). And there's even a shade on "Moldovans" to satisfy Dahn. Dpotop ( talk) 08:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, take care what you put as map name. There are Romanians in Harghita and Covasna, so if you use one of the first 4 maps, the name cannot be the one you propose (map of regions inhabited by Romanians). Dpotop ( talk) 08:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Dahn, I think you are too quick with your revert. I don't think the chart refers only to populations of a foreign country's citizens with Romanian background. The sources cited (confirmed from the BBC) state "residents"... How is this different from those listed for other countries where Romanians do not constitute part of the historic population?? They came from Romania and now live in Italy. Period. They are NOT there passing through or on vacation. I'll let you explain yourself before any revert back. Mariokempes ( talk) 23:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I see your points... and thanks for your patience with me. This is indeed a recipe for insanity. While it would be difficult to establish a uniform list of criteria for the table, I think for clarity it should be attempted or the table should be modified to clarify this "doubling up". Please keep demanding. Again, I haven't looked at the article's history- I can understand how this has already been a contentious source with infinite inconclusive results! Nonetheless, the article would benefit from a section on this large population migration to Italy... they are by far the largest minority group there today. Best of luck! Mariokempes ( talk) 01:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I didn't want to just delete it and look like a troll (again), but do we really need that disclaimer at the top of the page, stating that Romanians are "not to be confused with the Romani people"? K. Lásztocska talk 03:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
My sentiments exactly, I just needed somebody to agree with me before I unilaterally deleted it--this disclaimer is spillover from a rather odd debate yesterday in which I nearly got myself in some hot water, so I just wanted to be on the safe side. Anyway, it's gone. K. Lásztocska talk 06:42, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Top lines meant to dissipate the confussion with peoples having similar etnonims like it is shown in the following articles : Bulgarians with Bulgars, Macedonians with Ancient Macedonians and which are designating separate peoples with no connetion among themselves will be added. Adrianzax ( talk) 09:26, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Because, like bogdan already said: Bulgars are historically related to Bulgarians, and Macedonians (from Ancient Macedonia) and Macedonians (from former Yugoslavia) have the same name. Romanies and Romanians are not historically related nor do they have the same name. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 17:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
- This article is about the Latin ethnic group. For the unrelated Indo-Aryan ethnic group, see Romani people.
I think that stating "romani!=romanian" is absolutely necessary. Given that "romani" becomes used nowadays (although I don't find this reasonable), it is only fairness to disambiguate. Furthermore, confusion also comes from the fact that romani are romanian citizens, just like romanians. :)
Dpotop (
talk)
10:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Page has been protected for one week so you all can figure out what you're edit warring over. It looks to me like you're disrupting Wikipedia over some templates, an image, the capitalization of Latin, Easter, and Christmas, how to use a link, and the ordering of interwiki links. Continued disruption after the protection expires will warrant a block. Thank you, -- uǝʌǝs ʎʇɹnoɟ ʇs(st47) 16:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Does this help ? Balkan Fever 02:39, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Radu Vasile, former prime-minister of Romania says the term "Rom" for gypsies creeates confusion with "Romanians". Audio Link Here Adrianzax ( talk) 16:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
So what's the problem actually, there were Iberi in Caucasus and even Albania, what's the big deal, in many languages there are similar words and confusions... -- AdrianTM ( talk) 03:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
But AdrianTM, as Bogdangiusca pointed out in a discussion above [8], Bulgars is ambiguous, since they are ethnically related to the Bulgarians and are (for this reason) sometimes known as "proto-Bulgarians." But Romanies and Romanians are not ethnically related, and in fact, there is no evidence for any confusion between the two. The only "evidence" the other Adrian has presented is (1) an Italian article where a Romanian soccer/football player was called a "gypsy," (2) an editorial in an Italian newspaper in which a "confusion" was mentioned between (ethnic?) Romanians and Romanian citizens of Romani origin, and (3) a Romanian article about an Italian diplomat who called an Italian Rom "Romanian."
The first of these sources merely demonstrates the general derogatory nature of the word "gypsy." It shows that "gypsy" is used not only as a slur against Romanies, but just as a general insult, a bit like the verb "gyp" is used in (colloquial) English as an (almost?) insulting word meaning (the verb) "cheat."
The second just mentions a confusion between Romanians and Romanian citizens who are Romani. Even there, the author does not actually say that the confusion has to do with the name. It could (although it doesn't necessarily) have to do with the simple fact that a lot of Romanies happen to come from Romania. (In Italy especially, there are significantly large communities of Romanian Romanies (i.e. Romanies from Romania), and references are made to this particular Romani community in the Italian media). As such, Romanies in general may be associated specifically with Romanian Romanies.
The third source is similar to the second: an Italian politician confused an Italian Romani for a Romanian. Again, this could be due to the immigration of Romanian Romanies. In any case, as Dahn pointed out, neither of the last two sources actually says that the source of the confusion was the similarity between the words "rom" and "rumeno." -- Kuaichik ( talk) 06:22, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I still don't understand one thing, how can people claim that between two similar words that differ by only two letters and refer to very similar things: populations that live in the same country (only a part of Romani of course live in Romania) cannot be any confusion. How can anyone who is not familiarized with the subject know a priory that Romani's country is not Romania? (leaving aside all the racism that motivates Romanians and other people... can anyone argue that it's clear that Romani don't come from Romania -- especially that many of them DO live in Romania, can anyone fail to see the source of confusion?) Do you really need a reference for that type of confusion? -- AdrianTM ( talk) 06:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
The Italian deputy Roberto Menia (National Alliance) reffered to a Italian Rom colegue with the "ROMANIAN" apelative, after that he apologiesed in a message to romanian newspaper "Adevarul" Link Here
Bottom line, there's a confusion between Romani people and Romanians it doesn't even matter where this confusion comes from if it's from similar names or geographical location and it doesn't matter who makes the confusion. I think a "distinguish" template is perfectly normal here. -- AdrianTM ( talk) 17:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Assume you're American and that User:Dahn is telling you: It's obvious for everybody that Romani from Romania are not Romanian, and that Romania is named after Romanians. What are you thinking of Dahn? Dpotop ( talk) 21:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
In what way does it harm the artle to have the DAB link in? Theresa Knott | The otter sank 18:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there any good reason for Iulian28ti and Adrianzax repeatedly inserting spelling mistakes into this article? Latin is spelled with a capital L, not "latin" as these two users constantly revert to. As the page is currently protected, I'd appreciate if an administrator would change this. It is in no way ambiguous, as can easily be checked in any proper English dictionary. I'm genuinely curious as to way two users insert an erroneous spelling more than ten times and why the page is locked afterwards. This is the English Wikipedia, so please follow English spelling conventions. Thanks JdeJ ( talk) 22:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Adrianzax, you have made your point. Repeatedly. Your arguments are not supported by any reliable academic sources, and your edits and proposed disclaimers are against Wikipedia conventions. You are simply not going to win this particular battle, so I respectfully suggest you drop the issue and stop wasting everyone's time (yours included.) Regards, K. Lásztocska talk 22:37, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know why we're getting into such trivial arguments (i.e. having little to do with the article itself), but first of all, Adrian, it's "illogical," not "unlogical." Second, if you've called us idiots, and you aren't involved in any other disputes right now, then the people you are calling "idiots" are somewhat unlikely to be anyone besides us. (They are certainly not likely to be any other Wikipedians but us!). Not a foolproof deduction, but still logical. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 03:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I wanted to add this image to the Modern Age subsection but I couldn't. Somebody should add it though. Nergaal ( talk) 20:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
According to a Gallup Study, cited by NewsIn The majority of Romanians 52 % considers that gypsies must be called again by their original name and not "roma or other derivations of this term"
76 % of the romanians consider that the foreigners are confusing the terms "rom" with "romanian" .
[ link here] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrianzax ( talk • contribs) 16:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
English uses both forms, Rumanian and Romanian, to denote the Romance-speaking population in the South-Eastern Europe north of the Danube, which was traditionally referred as Vlachs (or Wallachians). Both forms were adopted by the mid 19th century when the principalities of Wallachia and Moldova were unified to form a new state, Rumania or Romania. The forms Rumania and Rumanian were prevailing till the second half of the 20th century, when the forms with "o" gradually became more popular.
See also Wallachians, Walloons, Welschen etc.
It seems that the forms with "u" are etymologically justified, as Rumanian normally changes the unstressed (Vulgar) Latin "o" to "u", cf.:
The form Rumân was the natural form used in Rumanian itself till the second half of the 19th century. The neighbouring languages (like Bulgarian, Serbian, Russian, Polish etc.) use the form with "u", and French for its part established the spelling Roumain, Roumanie. Spanish adopted the forms Rumania and Rumano and such was initially the practice in Italian. German has Rumänien, Rumäne and rumänisch.
The form with "o" was introduced in Rumania to stress the descendency of the Rumanians from the ancient Romans; this orthographic change happened by the time of the unification of the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia in the unitary kingdom of Rumania.
The Rumanian state since then always promote the spelling with "o", even in the foreign languages, and finally English also accepted it as official. Italian also changed the orthography, from "Rumania" to "Romenia"; modern Portuguese also uses the forms Romenia and Romeno.
On Orbis Latinus the forms with "u" are preferred in order to distinguish Rumania, the modern state, from Romania, the historical name of the Roman empire, which is used now by the linguists to denote all the countries where Romance languages are spoken. These preferences are only technical and are based on the established practices of English. The usage of the forms Rumania and Rumanian are in no way attended to offend the modern state and nation which have preserved through centuries the Roman name.
LINK HERE Adrianzax ( talk) 16:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Googling both words ( without accents) Romanian 91,200,000 Rumanian 1,630,000 Romania 196,000,000 Rumania 2,300,000 So It appears to be spelled with an o ~98% of the time and with a u 2% of the time. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 18:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I note that shorter oxford english dictionary [11] lists both spellings. I'm pretty sure the OED counts as a "scholarly qualified source" for english spellings. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 22:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
In English, there is also a third form of spelling: "Roumanians" (for the people) and "Roumania" (for the country). -- Olahus ( talk) 17:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Could somebody please (maybe an administrator) remove this change made by the unknown user 84.153.36.82? Until the middle of the 19.th century, the romanians designated themselves mostly as "rumâni". (see: Istoria românilor din cele mai vechi timpuri până astăzi, 1975, Constantin C. Giurescu & Dinu C. Giurescu, p.138). I can also show this hypotetical map of Romania from 1833, where the name of the imaginary country was "Rumânia" (not "România"), and the name of Wallachia was "Ţeara Rumânească" (not "Ţara Românească").
Read also this definition from "Dicţionarul Explicativ al limbii române":
The self-designation as "rumâni" is still today actual at some romanian populations, especially at the Vlachs of Serbia and Bulgaria.
-- Olahus ( talk) 18:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The spelling form rumân is not any longer actual in Romanian for 140-150 years. Even Olahus, who seems to favour very much the rumân spelling form, couldn't produce any evidence of its acual use. He invokes the Explanatory Dictionary of the Romanian Language, where it is clearly stated: 3. (În forma rumân) Denumire dată, în evul mediu, în Ţara Românească, ţăranilor dependenţi de stăpânii feudali; iobag, vecin., which means: (under the form rumân) Designation given in the Middle Eve to dependent peasans by their feudal lords; bondsman; serf. Olahus himself says: The self-designation as "rumâni" is still today actual at some romanian populations, especially at the Vlachs of Serbia and Bulgaria., which means that this designation is not actual any more in proper Romania. To put it clearly: Nobody in today Romania calls Romanian rumân, everybody calls it român. The form rumân is used in historical contexts or when some stilistic effect is aimed at, for instance as an archaism. For non-Romanian speakers it is understandable to be quite confused by this debate between Romanian speakers. I suppose that Olahus and Adraianzax try to push this weird information about a pretended use of "rumân" out of the concern that "Romanian" (român) could be confused with "Romani" (rom) (Gypsy), which is, say, quite naive, as if somebody would care if Austrians could be mistakenly taken for Australians. It is both absurd and disruptive trying to push names which are out of use for 150 years. -- 84.153.36.196 ( talk) 13:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I note that there is an anon user who keeps simply removing the term rather than trying to come to an appropriate wording despite evidence being presented on this talk page that the term is still used (albeit rarely) today. He happily accuses all the people he is reverting disruptive but it looks to me as if he is the one being disruptive. So I'd likel to invite him to participate in this conversation. Please anon user, why do you keep removing the term from the page, what have you against the spelling and why do you repeateldly state the spelling doesn't exist? Theresa Knott | The otter sank 10:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Bogdan, you're wrong. The term "rumâni" isn't used today in a depreciative way. I would like to see a source from you. -- Olahus ( talk) 10:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Even if the term "rumâni" had in the middle age sometimes also the meaning "serfs", nobody do use this word with this meaning today (in this sens, the word "rumâni" is completely obsolate). I proved you with the text from D.E.X. that the term "rumân" is the correct alternative for "român". Thogh it is used today only by tiny romanian groups like the Timok-Vlachs (Serbia and Bulgaria) (highest estimations 250,000-400,000 persons, official only 40,000 in Serbia and 10,000 in Bulgaria), this term is still in use (thought only as a regionalism today), so we must mention this term as it is. -- Olahus ( talk) 10:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I added also the other two english designations: "Roumanians" and "Rumanians" in the article. -- Olahus ( talk) 10:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
-- 84.153.54.19 ( talk) 11:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Bogdan, concerning this source, I can't see any explicit sentence, that proves the pejorative sense of the term "rumân". Reading the text, I can only conclude that the term "vlach" (hungarian: olah) does have this sense. And I don't doubt it. I also read the explanation in the romanian wikipedia: Cuvântul "valach", în Transilvania a fost mult timp întrebuinţat cu sensul de iobag, şi era considerată de români ca un nume de batjocoră. Din această cauză, Adunarea Naţională de pe Câmpia Libertăţii, a decis ca "naţiunea română să pretindă ca în toate actele oficiale să fie numită cu adevăratul ei nume". În actul de la 5 mai 1848 al împăratului Ferdinand s-a întrebuinţat pentru ultima dată în mod oficial denumirea de "valach", iar de la 1868 legislaţia ungurească a acceptat de asemenea numele de "român". But nothing about the term "rumân". Rumân is a romanian word, used by the romanians for their own designation. Or, you want to say that the romanians designated thenselves in the past with a pejorative term? Well, Bogdan, I really doubt it.-- Olahus ( talk) 11:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
@ 84.153.54.19: I don't doubt that the term "român" ist mostly used in presen-day romanian language. I do also designate myself as a "român". But it does'n mean that the term "rumân" is out of speech. You just proved above that what I say.
You wrote: "Please, verify this in every Romanian dictionary." Well, I cited from D.E.X. (Dicţionarul explicativ al limbii române). Is there any better source thas this? -- Olahus ( talk) 12:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
-- Olahus ( talk) 11:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear 84.153.54.19, please quote the whole text:
ROMÂN, -Ă, români, -e, s.m. şi f., adj. I. S.m. şi f. 1. Persoană care aparţine populaţiei de bază a României sau este originară din România. 2. (Pop.) Ţăran. ♦ Bărbat, soţ. ♦ Om (în general), bărbat. 3. (În forma rumân) Denumire dată, în evul mediu, în Ţara Românească, ţăranilor dependenţi de stăpânii feudali; iobag, vecin. II. 1. Adj. Care aparţine României sau românilor (I 1), referitor la România sau la români; românesc. ♦ (Substantivat, f.) Limba vorbită de români. Româna comună (sau primitivă) = stadiu în evoluţia limbii române anterior diferenţierii dialectale; străromână. [Var.: rumân s.m.] – Lat. romanus.
As you can see, the term "român" has many senses (see also point I.2.). But, as you can see at the end of the definition, the alternative term (variantă) for all the meanings is: "rumân".
You wrote: "There is no actual commonly use of the "Rumân" spelling form.". Well, dear 84.153.54.19, I doubt it. Please read this pages of the Romanian from Serbia:
I would like to present you also this page, but unfortunately, the romanian version is not available (but it will surely be soon available again). There you can read : "Federaţia rumânilor din Sârbie". Hear also some songs: [12] and [13]. -- Olahus ( talk) 20:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Read here: "Noi suntem rumani"
See also here. -- Olahus ( talk) 20:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear Olahus: You are invoking Romanian language as well as non-Romanian language sources. Non-Romanian language sources are in no way relevant to our discussion, since we are debating about the use of român/rumân in Romanian. Every source you invoked is from outside Romania, namely from Bulgaria or Serbia, regarding the Romanian communities in those countries. I am not ruling out that -especially in Slavic countries - native Romanians living there still call themselves with the old form rumâni. Anyway, I am not acquainted with this topic. So dear Olahus, feel free to amend the article with informations about the way native Romanians outside Romania are called, but for God's sake stop pushing such an absurd enormity like "Romanians are also called "rumâni" in today Romania" ! -- 84.153.2.113 ( talk) 16:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Grr!!!!!!!!!!! Could everyone please watch their tone. Olhouse is it really necessary to say "Well, dear 84.153.54.19". Likewise the anon states "So dear Olahus" Could you both please not do it. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 15:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
84.153.2.113, I added the elucidation: "and only regional". Are you satisfied now? -- Olahus ( talk) 17:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't doubt about the fact that the term "Romanian" is the mostly used today in english language. This is the reason why the name of the article is "Romanians", not "Rumanians" or "Roumanians". But the terms "Rumanian" and "Roumanian" are still in use today. See the search results on Google News for the term "Rumanian"; see also that even the term "Roumanian" is still in use. The usage of those two terms is not wrong. -- Olahus ( talk) 11:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
This article is in English and the use of the word Romani does not apply to Romanians / Rumanians within the English language. Romani is a word surviving for hundreds of years that applies to an ethnic group of people living in Europe who originate from India. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
77.96.254.123 (
talk)
20:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
bogdan, if you registered yourself as "orthodox" in the census, then you are an orthdox (not atheist) for the sake of this page. We are talking about offcial figures here, not your original research. How do you know that there are "many" people in your alleged situation? How do <it>we</it> know that you did indeed declare yourself orthodox? Please leave original research and personal feelings aside when contributing here.
As for the statistics you provide about church attendance, they come from an obscure poll conducted by an NGO, while the way people define themselves comes from the official census. Most foreigners visiting Romania notice the high church attendance rate (churches are packed and so on). Should the NGO's opinion deserve much space in the article? I believe not. Icar 09:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, the pic was deleted, and that was in the cards - since several photos were not at all PD. If someone should want to reconstruct it somehow, here's some suggestions to fill in the non-PD gaps:
Now, as I have said, I find the whole idea of such group portraits to stand for entire nations to be terribly maladroit and inextricably POVed. But, if you have to have one, do it right. Dahn 20:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll have to agree with Dahn: it is better to not have any photo at all. Nice to read on Marthe. I didn't know about her. -- Thus Spake Anittas 10:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, popor is a word reconstructed in 19th century from Latin populus and Italian popolo. The older Romanian word was neam, but as this is borrowed from Hungarian, the nationalists didn't like it for obvious reasons. There's even older word, nat, from Latin natio, nationis (cognate with modern borrowing naţiune), but this was confined as a regional word in Banat, unknown throughout the rest of the country, which apparently replaced it with neam. bogdan 15:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Again, I find the information included there problematic. Can someone give me a source which links Romanians to Italians? That assumption is most likely based on the idea that Romans are the common ancestors of the two people. I'm don't want to argue that point, but if that were the case, then all Latin people in Europe should be linked to one another. That, of course, would be a stupid thing to do. The other problem is to add Moldovans as a related ethnic groups. Ethnic Moldovans are counted by most for being Romanians. Those who argue against that point would probably not settle by saying that they are a related ethnic group to Romanians; and if one wants to argue that they are not to be counted as Romanians, then that same person should source the claim that they are a related ethnic group. Basically, the two schools of tought say that Moldovans are either Romanian or not: and there is nothing in-between. There is no compromise to be made. -- Thus Spake Anittas 11:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12542743?dopt=Abstract … —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.61 ( talk) 23:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
We are missing the suffix -lea, which stands for (al lui) I think. As for -escu, isn't that suffix specifically Wallachian? -- Thus Spake Anittas 19:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
78.151.173.120 ( talk) 09:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)It's Baltic by its origin and you are much more Balts (means white people) than any other group (except Moldavians), the same is true and with Belorussians-Gudai (means white/Baltic russians, but in Lithuania they are called Gudai or herd hunters), Ukrainians (means living on the edge of the areal - it's slavic form, but comes from Baltic-Lithuanian language Pa-krastenai), Latvians (means people with boats 'Luotai'), Bulgars (comes from 'buliu varovai'=bulls' drivers, previously Bulvarai or Avarai meaning 'aviu varovai'=sheeps' drivers or sheperds) and Moldavians (means 'Maldauviai'=prayers). We together were Huns (means herd hunters) and Vandals (means water)!!! Do not forget that!!! All these names (together with Attila ('Eitila' running the office, similarly we have 'Vaidila'=a chief priest), Rugila (a rye), Uptaris (mentor/adviser), Celts (to ferry/migrate/ressetle), Goths-Gudai (herd hunters), Trakai(a cut place in the middle of the forest), Gauls-Galiai (powerful people)) are Lithuanian names/words and still in use TODAY...You CAN even check your family names I added in the main article..........Aryans=AREJAI=Ploughmen 78.151.173.120 ( talk) 09:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
There are almost 600000 romanians in Italy. The 1% of the entire italian population. [1] -- Alessandro.pasi 02:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Dapiks ( talk) 21:32, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
here is another map i found
Dapiks ( talk) 16:19, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
The first map (at http://www.halgal.com/graphics/PUR/Eurethnic.jpg) looks like Magosci's work, his historical atlas of central eastern Europe is regarded as a seminal work and reflects the latest and best scholarship on the region.— PētersV ( talk) 03:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I have a question for Dahn: If you care so much for census data, why do you agree to leave
Targu Mures in a Hungarian majority (blue) zone in the envsec map? My impression is that the last census clearly places Targu Mures in Romanian majority zone. Are you really interested in presenting census data, or in demolishing "Romanian national myths"?
Dpotop (
talk)
08:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The map [10] seems OK to me. It's not even WP:OR, nor WP:RS, because it's census data (which we can provide here regardless of the reliability of the one who made the graphical presentation). And there's even a shade on "Moldovans" to satisfy Dahn. Dpotop ( talk) 08:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, take care what you put as map name. There are Romanians in Harghita and Covasna, so if you use one of the first 4 maps, the name cannot be the one you propose (map of regions inhabited by Romanians). Dpotop ( talk) 08:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Dahn, I think you are too quick with your revert. I don't think the chart refers only to populations of a foreign country's citizens with Romanian background. The sources cited (confirmed from the BBC) state "residents"... How is this different from those listed for other countries where Romanians do not constitute part of the historic population?? They came from Romania and now live in Italy. Period. They are NOT there passing through or on vacation. I'll let you explain yourself before any revert back. Mariokempes ( talk) 23:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I see your points... and thanks for your patience with me. This is indeed a recipe for insanity. While it would be difficult to establish a uniform list of criteria for the table, I think for clarity it should be attempted or the table should be modified to clarify this "doubling up". Please keep demanding. Again, I haven't looked at the article's history- I can understand how this has already been a contentious source with infinite inconclusive results! Nonetheless, the article would benefit from a section on this large population migration to Italy... they are by far the largest minority group there today. Best of luck! Mariokempes ( talk) 01:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I didn't want to just delete it and look like a troll (again), but do we really need that disclaimer at the top of the page, stating that Romanians are "not to be confused with the Romani people"? K. Lásztocska talk 03:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
My sentiments exactly, I just needed somebody to agree with me before I unilaterally deleted it--this disclaimer is spillover from a rather odd debate yesterday in which I nearly got myself in some hot water, so I just wanted to be on the safe side. Anyway, it's gone. K. Lásztocska talk 06:42, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Top lines meant to dissipate the confussion with peoples having similar etnonims like it is shown in the following articles : Bulgarians with Bulgars, Macedonians with Ancient Macedonians and which are designating separate peoples with no connetion among themselves will be added. Adrianzax ( talk) 09:26, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Because, like bogdan already said: Bulgars are historically related to Bulgarians, and Macedonians (from Ancient Macedonia) and Macedonians (from former Yugoslavia) have the same name. Romanies and Romanians are not historically related nor do they have the same name. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 17:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
- This article is about the Latin ethnic group. For the unrelated Indo-Aryan ethnic group, see Romani people.
I think that stating "romani!=romanian" is absolutely necessary. Given that "romani" becomes used nowadays (although I don't find this reasonable), it is only fairness to disambiguate. Furthermore, confusion also comes from the fact that romani are romanian citizens, just like romanians. :)
Dpotop (
talk)
10:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Page has been protected for one week so you all can figure out what you're edit warring over. It looks to me like you're disrupting Wikipedia over some templates, an image, the capitalization of Latin, Easter, and Christmas, how to use a link, and the ordering of interwiki links. Continued disruption after the protection expires will warrant a block. Thank you, -- uǝʌǝs ʎʇɹnoɟ ʇs(st47) 16:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Does this help ? Balkan Fever 02:39, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Radu Vasile, former prime-minister of Romania says the term "Rom" for gypsies creeates confusion with "Romanians". Audio Link Here Adrianzax ( talk) 16:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
So what's the problem actually, there were Iberi in Caucasus and even Albania, what's the big deal, in many languages there are similar words and confusions... -- AdrianTM ( talk) 03:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
But AdrianTM, as Bogdangiusca pointed out in a discussion above [8], Bulgars is ambiguous, since they are ethnically related to the Bulgarians and are (for this reason) sometimes known as "proto-Bulgarians." But Romanies and Romanians are not ethnically related, and in fact, there is no evidence for any confusion between the two. The only "evidence" the other Adrian has presented is (1) an Italian article where a Romanian soccer/football player was called a "gypsy," (2) an editorial in an Italian newspaper in which a "confusion" was mentioned between (ethnic?) Romanians and Romanian citizens of Romani origin, and (3) a Romanian article about an Italian diplomat who called an Italian Rom "Romanian."
The first of these sources merely demonstrates the general derogatory nature of the word "gypsy." It shows that "gypsy" is used not only as a slur against Romanies, but just as a general insult, a bit like the verb "gyp" is used in (colloquial) English as an (almost?) insulting word meaning (the verb) "cheat."
The second just mentions a confusion between Romanians and Romanian citizens who are Romani. Even there, the author does not actually say that the confusion has to do with the name. It could (although it doesn't necessarily) have to do with the simple fact that a lot of Romanies happen to come from Romania. (In Italy especially, there are significantly large communities of Romanian Romanies (i.e. Romanies from Romania), and references are made to this particular Romani community in the Italian media). As such, Romanies in general may be associated specifically with Romanian Romanies.
The third source is similar to the second: an Italian politician confused an Italian Romani for a Romanian. Again, this could be due to the immigration of Romanian Romanies. In any case, as Dahn pointed out, neither of the last two sources actually says that the source of the confusion was the similarity between the words "rom" and "rumeno." -- Kuaichik ( talk) 06:22, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I still don't understand one thing, how can people claim that between two similar words that differ by only two letters and refer to very similar things: populations that live in the same country (only a part of Romani of course live in Romania) cannot be any confusion. How can anyone who is not familiarized with the subject know a priory that Romani's country is not Romania? (leaving aside all the racism that motivates Romanians and other people... can anyone argue that it's clear that Romani don't come from Romania -- especially that many of them DO live in Romania, can anyone fail to see the source of confusion?) Do you really need a reference for that type of confusion? -- AdrianTM ( talk) 06:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
The Italian deputy Roberto Menia (National Alliance) reffered to a Italian Rom colegue with the "ROMANIAN" apelative, after that he apologiesed in a message to romanian newspaper "Adevarul" Link Here
Bottom line, there's a confusion between Romani people and Romanians it doesn't even matter where this confusion comes from if it's from similar names or geographical location and it doesn't matter who makes the confusion. I think a "distinguish" template is perfectly normal here. -- AdrianTM ( talk) 17:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Assume you're American and that User:Dahn is telling you: It's obvious for everybody that Romani from Romania are not Romanian, and that Romania is named after Romanians. What are you thinking of Dahn? Dpotop ( talk) 21:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
In what way does it harm the artle to have the DAB link in? Theresa Knott | The otter sank 18:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there any good reason for Iulian28ti and Adrianzax repeatedly inserting spelling mistakes into this article? Latin is spelled with a capital L, not "latin" as these two users constantly revert to. As the page is currently protected, I'd appreciate if an administrator would change this. It is in no way ambiguous, as can easily be checked in any proper English dictionary. I'm genuinely curious as to way two users insert an erroneous spelling more than ten times and why the page is locked afterwards. This is the English Wikipedia, so please follow English spelling conventions. Thanks JdeJ ( talk) 22:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Adrianzax, you have made your point. Repeatedly. Your arguments are not supported by any reliable academic sources, and your edits and proposed disclaimers are against Wikipedia conventions. You are simply not going to win this particular battle, so I respectfully suggest you drop the issue and stop wasting everyone's time (yours included.) Regards, K. Lásztocska talk 22:37, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know why we're getting into such trivial arguments (i.e. having little to do with the article itself), but first of all, Adrian, it's "illogical," not "unlogical." Second, if you've called us idiots, and you aren't involved in any other disputes right now, then the people you are calling "idiots" are somewhat unlikely to be anyone besides us. (They are certainly not likely to be any other Wikipedians but us!). Not a foolproof deduction, but still logical. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 03:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I wanted to add this image to the Modern Age subsection but I couldn't. Somebody should add it though. Nergaal ( talk) 20:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
According to a Gallup Study, cited by NewsIn The majority of Romanians 52 % considers that gypsies must be called again by their original name and not "roma or other derivations of this term"
76 % of the romanians consider that the foreigners are confusing the terms "rom" with "romanian" .
[ link here] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrianzax ( talk • contribs) 16:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
English uses both forms, Rumanian and Romanian, to denote the Romance-speaking population in the South-Eastern Europe north of the Danube, which was traditionally referred as Vlachs (or Wallachians). Both forms were adopted by the mid 19th century when the principalities of Wallachia and Moldova were unified to form a new state, Rumania or Romania. The forms Rumania and Rumanian were prevailing till the second half of the 20th century, when the forms with "o" gradually became more popular.
See also Wallachians, Walloons, Welschen etc.
It seems that the forms with "u" are etymologically justified, as Rumanian normally changes the unstressed (Vulgar) Latin "o" to "u", cf.:
The form Rumân was the natural form used in Rumanian itself till the second half of the 19th century. The neighbouring languages (like Bulgarian, Serbian, Russian, Polish etc.) use the form with "u", and French for its part established the spelling Roumain, Roumanie. Spanish adopted the forms Rumania and Rumano and such was initially the practice in Italian. German has Rumänien, Rumäne and rumänisch.
The form with "o" was introduced in Rumania to stress the descendency of the Rumanians from the ancient Romans; this orthographic change happened by the time of the unification of the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia in the unitary kingdom of Rumania.
The Rumanian state since then always promote the spelling with "o", even in the foreign languages, and finally English also accepted it as official. Italian also changed the orthography, from "Rumania" to "Romenia"; modern Portuguese also uses the forms Romenia and Romeno.
On Orbis Latinus the forms with "u" are preferred in order to distinguish Rumania, the modern state, from Romania, the historical name of the Roman empire, which is used now by the linguists to denote all the countries where Romance languages are spoken. These preferences are only technical and are based on the established practices of English. The usage of the forms Rumania and Rumanian are in no way attended to offend the modern state and nation which have preserved through centuries the Roman name.
LINK HERE Adrianzax ( talk) 16:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Googling both words ( without accents) Romanian 91,200,000 Rumanian 1,630,000 Romania 196,000,000 Rumania 2,300,000 So It appears to be spelled with an o ~98% of the time and with a u 2% of the time. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 18:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I note that shorter oxford english dictionary [11] lists both spellings. I'm pretty sure the OED counts as a "scholarly qualified source" for english spellings. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 22:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
In English, there is also a third form of spelling: "Roumanians" (for the people) and "Roumania" (for the country). -- Olahus ( talk) 17:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Could somebody please (maybe an administrator) remove this change made by the unknown user 84.153.36.82? Until the middle of the 19.th century, the romanians designated themselves mostly as "rumâni". (see: Istoria românilor din cele mai vechi timpuri până astăzi, 1975, Constantin C. Giurescu & Dinu C. Giurescu, p.138). I can also show this hypotetical map of Romania from 1833, where the name of the imaginary country was "Rumânia" (not "România"), and the name of Wallachia was "Ţeara Rumânească" (not "Ţara Românească").
Read also this definition from "Dicţionarul Explicativ al limbii române":
The self-designation as "rumâni" is still today actual at some romanian populations, especially at the Vlachs of Serbia and Bulgaria.
-- Olahus ( talk) 18:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The spelling form rumân is not any longer actual in Romanian for 140-150 years. Even Olahus, who seems to favour very much the rumân spelling form, couldn't produce any evidence of its acual use. He invokes the Explanatory Dictionary of the Romanian Language, where it is clearly stated: 3. (În forma rumân) Denumire dată, în evul mediu, în Ţara Românească, ţăranilor dependenţi de stăpânii feudali; iobag, vecin., which means: (under the form rumân) Designation given in the Middle Eve to dependent peasans by their feudal lords; bondsman; serf. Olahus himself says: The self-designation as "rumâni" is still today actual at some romanian populations, especially at the Vlachs of Serbia and Bulgaria., which means that this designation is not actual any more in proper Romania. To put it clearly: Nobody in today Romania calls Romanian rumân, everybody calls it român. The form rumân is used in historical contexts or when some stilistic effect is aimed at, for instance as an archaism. For non-Romanian speakers it is understandable to be quite confused by this debate between Romanian speakers. I suppose that Olahus and Adraianzax try to push this weird information about a pretended use of "rumân" out of the concern that "Romanian" (român) could be confused with "Romani" (rom) (Gypsy), which is, say, quite naive, as if somebody would care if Austrians could be mistakenly taken for Australians. It is both absurd and disruptive trying to push names which are out of use for 150 years. -- 84.153.36.196 ( talk) 13:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I note that there is an anon user who keeps simply removing the term rather than trying to come to an appropriate wording despite evidence being presented on this talk page that the term is still used (albeit rarely) today. He happily accuses all the people he is reverting disruptive but it looks to me as if he is the one being disruptive. So I'd likel to invite him to participate in this conversation. Please anon user, why do you keep removing the term from the page, what have you against the spelling and why do you repeateldly state the spelling doesn't exist? Theresa Knott | The otter sank 10:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Bogdan, you're wrong. The term "rumâni" isn't used today in a depreciative way. I would like to see a source from you. -- Olahus ( talk) 10:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Even if the term "rumâni" had in the middle age sometimes also the meaning "serfs", nobody do use this word with this meaning today (in this sens, the word "rumâni" is completely obsolate). I proved you with the text from D.E.X. that the term "rumân" is the correct alternative for "român". Thogh it is used today only by tiny romanian groups like the Timok-Vlachs (Serbia and Bulgaria) (highest estimations 250,000-400,000 persons, official only 40,000 in Serbia and 10,000 in Bulgaria), this term is still in use (thought only as a regionalism today), so we must mention this term as it is. -- Olahus ( talk) 10:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I added also the other two english designations: "Roumanians" and "Rumanians" in the article. -- Olahus ( talk) 10:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
-- 84.153.54.19 ( talk) 11:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Bogdan, concerning this source, I can't see any explicit sentence, that proves the pejorative sense of the term "rumân". Reading the text, I can only conclude that the term "vlach" (hungarian: olah) does have this sense. And I don't doubt it. I also read the explanation in the romanian wikipedia: Cuvântul "valach", în Transilvania a fost mult timp întrebuinţat cu sensul de iobag, şi era considerată de români ca un nume de batjocoră. Din această cauză, Adunarea Naţională de pe Câmpia Libertăţii, a decis ca "naţiunea română să pretindă ca în toate actele oficiale să fie numită cu adevăratul ei nume". În actul de la 5 mai 1848 al împăratului Ferdinand s-a întrebuinţat pentru ultima dată în mod oficial denumirea de "valach", iar de la 1868 legislaţia ungurească a acceptat de asemenea numele de "român". But nothing about the term "rumân". Rumân is a romanian word, used by the romanians for their own designation. Or, you want to say that the romanians designated thenselves in the past with a pejorative term? Well, Bogdan, I really doubt it.-- Olahus ( talk) 11:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
@ 84.153.54.19: I don't doubt that the term "român" ist mostly used in presen-day romanian language. I do also designate myself as a "român". But it does'n mean that the term "rumân" is out of speech. You just proved above that what I say.
You wrote: "Please, verify this in every Romanian dictionary." Well, I cited from D.E.X. (Dicţionarul explicativ al limbii române). Is there any better source thas this? -- Olahus ( talk) 12:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
-- Olahus ( talk) 11:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear 84.153.54.19, please quote the whole text:
ROMÂN, -Ă, români, -e, s.m. şi f., adj. I. S.m. şi f. 1. Persoană care aparţine populaţiei de bază a României sau este originară din România. 2. (Pop.) Ţăran. ♦ Bărbat, soţ. ♦ Om (în general), bărbat. 3. (În forma rumân) Denumire dată, în evul mediu, în Ţara Românească, ţăranilor dependenţi de stăpânii feudali; iobag, vecin. II. 1. Adj. Care aparţine României sau românilor (I 1), referitor la România sau la români; românesc. ♦ (Substantivat, f.) Limba vorbită de români. Româna comună (sau primitivă) = stadiu în evoluţia limbii române anterior diferenţierii dialectale; străromână. [Var.: rumân s.m.] – Lat. romanus.
As you can see, the term "român" has many senses (see also point I.2.). But, as you can see at the end of the definition, the alternative term (variantă) for all the meanings is: "rumân".
You wrote: "There is no actual commonly use of the "Rumân" spelling form.". Well, dear 84.153.54.19, I doubt it. Please read this pages of the Romanian from Serbia:
I would like to present you also this page, but unfortunately, the romanian version is not available (but it will surely be soon available again). There you can read : "Federaţia rumânilor din Sârbie". Hear also some songs: [12] and [13]. -- Olahus ( talk) 20:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Read here: "Noi suntem rumani"
See also here. -- Olahus ( talk) 20:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear Olahus: You are invoking Romanian language as well as non-Romanian language sources. Non-Romanian language sources are in no way relevant to our discussion, since we are debating about the use of român/rumân in Romanian. Every source you invoked is from outside Romania, namely from Bulgaria or Serbia, regarding the Romanian communities in those countries. I am not ruling out that -especially in Slavic countries - native Romanians living there still call themselves with the old form rumâni. Anyway, I am not acquainted with this topic. So dear Olahus, feel free to amend the article with informations about the way native Romanians outside Romania are called, but for God's sake stop pushing such an absurd enormity like "Romanians are also called "rumâni" in today Romania" ! -- 84.153.2.113 ( talk) 16:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Grr!!!!!!!!!!! Could everyone please watch their tone. Olhouse is it really necessary to say "Well, dear 84.153.54.19". Likewise the anon states "So dear Olahus" Could you both please not do it. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 15:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
84.153.2.113, I added the elucidation: "and only regional". Are you satisfied now? -- Olahus ( talk) 17:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't doubt about the fact that the term "Romanian" is the mostly used today in english language. This is the reason why the name of the article is "Romanians", not "Rumanians" or "Roumanians". But the terms "Rumanian" and "Roumanian" are still in use today. See the search results on Google News for the term "Rumanian"; see also that even the term "Roumanian" is still in use. The usage of those two terms is not wrong. -- Olahus ( talk) 11:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
This article is in English and the use of the word Romani does not apply to Romanians / Rumanians within the English language. Romani is a word surviving for hundreds of years that applies to an ethnic group of people living in Europe who originate from India. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
77.96.254.123 (
talk)
20:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)