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I posted the real number of Romanian immigrants in Italy estimated by projections of past trends. The Romanian user keeps adding as source the census which only shows citizens with a permanent residence, so understimating the real number of Romanians in Italy. It is even written in the link he posted. Opinions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeyc91 ( talk • contribs) 14:08, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
"In 2010 Istat started working on the new round of Census. Carried out every ten years, the survey paints a picture of the country on the basis of uniform criteria, thus allowing for comparisons at European and international level. In October 2010 the 6th Census of agriculture started. In October 2011, the 15th Census of population and housing and the 9th Census of industry and services will start.". Does anything strike you about the statement? Firstly, the statistics in their database which you are accessing are based on old census information. They talk about October of 2011 in the future tense. Read their legal disclaimer. Enough said? -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 22:37, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
1) The 997,000 figure was initially posted by me and comes from one of the last ISTAT paper. 2) This figures I've posted, are including all the immigrants now working and residing in Italy and not just the ones who have the permanent residence here. It's not that 400.000 and more Romanians in Italy disappear just because they prefer to keep their legal residence in their home country. So I stand correct. 3) Please post the link where the ISTAT itself admitted that it overstated the number of immigrants (from ALL countries). This is the last update from their official website. The numbers are in line with those of older estimates
http://www.istat.it/it/archivio/129854
4) I can easily show you how your census admits that it only counts immigrants with the legal permanent residence in Italy.
-- Joeyc91 ( talk) 17:40, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
As a Jew, I take issue with Jews (along with other non-Romanian peoples) being classified as Ethnic Romanians. Especially in light of Anti Semitic theories such as the Khazar Theory, I resent that Romanian Jews are classified as Vlachs and other types of Romanian (forgive my archaic wording) ethnics. The converse, I imagine, applies to Romanian ethnics in Israel.
There needs to be, I feel, a separate page for Ethnic Romanians and Non-Romanian ethnic groups in Romania. 74.103.28.81 ( talk) 23:50, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
These numbers keep going up and down since certain users (I will not say who) inflate them with irrelevant data just for the sake of making them look larger. The official census data from Italy in 2011 but released in December 2013 so basically the most recent data cites 800,000. However, numbers keep going up citing istat data from 2012 and 2013 which are just estimates (933,000, 1081,000). 104.254.93.198 ( talk) 23:43, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Those are not estimates. ISTAT is adding the number of registered new immigrants to the 2011 census. Read the link I've posted. Joeyc91 ( talk) 16:11, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
You can't even read the link I've provided to you. That's what it says. Click on Note to read it.
"La popolazione straniera residente è costituita dalle persone di cittadinanza non italiana aventi dimora abituale in Italia; viene calcolata, per ciascun comune, al 31 dicembre di ogni anno successivo al Censimento della popolazione, sommando alla popolazione straniera censita come residente nel comune, il movimento anagrafico registrato nel corso di ciascun periodo. Nel caso specifico dell’anno 2011, la popolazione al 31 dicembre del 2011 è stata calcolata con il medesimo criterio, a partire dai dati del Censimento al 9 ottobre 2011 e utilizzando il movimento anagrafico registrato nel periodo 9 ottobre - 31 dicembre 2011.
Sul sito, in una sezione dedicata, è pubblicata anche la serie pre-censuaria dei dati del bilancio demografico della popolazione straniera residente, a partire dall’anno 2002. Tra i dati relativi al periodo 1° gennaio 2002 - 8 ottobre 2011 e i successivi esiste una discontinuità nella serie storica, determinata dal XV Censimento della Popolazione. La serie storica coerente verrà determinata successivamente attraverso la ricostruzione dei bilanci del periodo intercensuario.
Per una migliore interpretazione degli eventi demografici che hanno caratterizzato il movimento della popolazione straniera residente nel corso del periodo, si richiama l'attenzione sulle poste del bilancio demografico.
Le iscrizioni si distinguono in: Iscrizioni per nascita: nati nel corso del periodo da genitori entrambi stranieri, almeno uno dei quali residente nel comune. La nascita fa riferimento alla data di registrazione dell'atto in anagrafe e non alla data effettiva dell'evento. Iscrizioni da altro comune: cittadini stranieri iscritti in anagrafe per trasferimento di residenza da un altro comune italiano. Iscrizioni dall'estero: cittadini stranieri iscritti in anagrafe per trasferimento di residenza dall'estero; Iscrizioni per altri motivi: cittadini stranieri iscritti in anagrafe per altri motivi non altrove classificabili. Le cancellazioni si distinguono in:
Cancellazioni per morte: cittadini stranieri residenti deceduti nel periodo. La morte fa riferimento alla data di registrazione dell'atto in anagrafe e non alla data effettiva dell'evento. Cancellazioni per altro comune: cittadini stranieri cancellati dall'anagrafe per trasferimento di residenza in altro comune italiano. Cancellazioni per l'estero: cittadini stranieri cancellati dall'anagrafe per trasferimento di residenza all'estero. Acquisizioni di cittadinanza italiana: individui cancellati dalle liste dei residenti di cittadinanza straniera e registrati in quelle della popolazione italiana residente; tali cancellazioni, pertanto, non influiscono sulla variazione del numero complessivo degli iscritti in anagrafe. Cancellazioni per altri motivi: cittadini stranieri cancellati dall'anagrafe per altri motivi non altrove classificabili (ad es. a seguito di definizione di procedimento di irreperibilità ordinaria, per mancato rinnovo della dichiarazione di dimora abituale a seguito di scadenza del permesso di soggiorno, ecc.)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeyc91 ( talk • contribs) 10:02, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
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@ Iryna Harpy: I would be interested in discussing reintroducing the gallery to the infobox. I do not see where anyone called it "redundant" or where this consensus to remove it is; in fact two admins reverted back to it. What is your issue now? -- Steverci ( talk) 23:08, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
"What is your issue now?. Comment on content, not on the contributor. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 23:31, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Try reading
WP:CON again. Where did you get the impression that "When someone reverts it, that is the moment consensus is lost."
? The same place where you got the two non-existent admins (something you'd copied from another comment from an inexperienced user)? Please read
WP:TALKDONTREVERT, and take note that it wasn't consensus between two editors over a year ago (try reading this talk page properly), and that a single
WP:BATTLEGROUND editor continuing to push the issue doesn't mean that it's time to reintroduce something dismissed as the result of protracted edit warring and, most importantly, because regular editors had enough of the only activity on this article revolving around who should be in the gallery and who should not. Sorry, but I'm not budging. The only revert made to the removal was by one user who didn't join in on the discussion regarding removing the gallery, and has since added content without showing any interest in the existence or non-existence of a gallery. Add to that the fact that I don't see any other editors even wanting to join in in supporting you on this discussion and I understand that to be an indicator of consensus. Please
drop the stick; it's getting
WP:TEDIOUS. --
Iryna Harpy (
talk)
04:46, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
of an editor who has been blocked over 10 times, reverting me and telling me not to edit war, in the edit summary of his revert... Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 08:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
Do you think a paper encyclopedia ever has this sort of bullshit drama about what image to use to represent a race? Of course not, they put an image and accept that while a few people will get mildly annoyed over the image choice, the vast majority of readers will never care. This article is being treated as if it's for the editors, not as if it's for readers. Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 06:25, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
I suggest a pause of this discussion until we have an outcome in the debate that is taking place in a broader framework here. Hahun ( talk) 11:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello, may I know what's your problem? You deleted a beautiful gallery filled only with ethnic Romanians and Romanian ancestors. May I know why? Why this hate towards our national personalities? What was even the consensus anyway? "Duh, let's be unjust to the representatives of a country that never wronged us in any way!" Yeah, very professional! -_-
Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 16:34, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
I noticed the gallery is gone for some reason. Please restore it. The Romanian language page has a gallery, use that pleasse https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rom%C3%A2ni — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.43.205 ( talk) 23:47, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
consensus is about making a compromise that editors are happy with, until you get that agreement you do not have consensus. Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 06:33, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
It is a pity that this article does not have a gallery, like the most articles describing ethnic groups. I think the debate should be resumed and we should make efforts to gain a consensus on the names to be included in the gallery. Hahun ( talk) 12:50, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Right now, we have no consensus either way. Removing the gallery and bringing it back both results in reverts, so we can work here to achieve consensus. Hopefully, we can gain it with discussion, as a constant revert cycle doesn't seem like fun. Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 06:16, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I'm being rude. Iryna, come join this discussion please. You seem to have knowledge and experience of this article, consensus seems somewhat lost right now, do you have any ideas how we could improve this article, in regards to the gallery? Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 06:18, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
File:Representative Romanians.jpg
1st row:
Basarab I of Wallachia •
Mircea I of Wallachia •
Vlad the Impaler •
John Hunyadi
2nd row:
Stephen the Great •
Michael the Brave •
Constantin Brancoveanu •
Horea
3rd row:
Nicolae Balcescu •
Mihai Eminescu •
Marie of Romania •
Ionel Bratianu
4th row:
George Enescu •
Constantin Brancusi •
Mircea Eliade •
Eugen Ionesco
5th row:
Henri Coanda •
George Emil Palade •
Nadia Comaneci •
Gheorghe Hagi
what specific problems do editors see with that gallery, and what changes would they suggest to improve it? Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 06:22, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I came to this page after reading this posting at the Help Desk. I have read the arguments above, and do not understand the opposition to a gallery. Other articles on ethnicities have galleries, and I have enjoyed looking at them, and have learned from them (and reacted e.g. "I'd never realised that she was Polish!"). I understand there have been problems in the past, with editors including people who are not ethnically Romanian. And I think I see why this is a particular problem in this article: some patriotic Romanians have a tendency to claim credit for things that are not really Romanian. But I am surprised that this can't be overcome. Incidentally, I see the specimen gallery above includes Marie of Romania, whose grandparents were German, English, and Russian, with no evidence of Romanian ancestry. Maproom ( talk) 09:31, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
We can't have a gallery with psycho-Vlad in it, with so many brilliant scientists, inventors and other technocrats omitted while we add Eminescu, Hagi and Nadia. And what's Horea doing there? Also, Iancu hasn't done a great deal for his ethnicity, so remove him as well. Balcescu fought the Greeks from recreating the Byzantine Empire: why is he there? Conclusion: no gallery. -- Cei Trei ( talk) 16:02, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
As a compromise, I say we only add one photo to represent Romanians: the painting of Stephen. That will make everyone content. Well, almost everyone. -- Cei Trei ( talk) 01:31, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
I am against the inclusion of the painting of Stephen the Great of Moldavia in the infobox. It is not the most illustrative image for this topic. Hahun ( talk) 11:05, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
You have to understand: Until you reach your "consensus", our people remain with no representatives, and that's humiliating, as there are next to no ethnic groups without representatives. Even very small ones, like the Gibraltarians, have a list of representatives. I don't know what's your beef with our people, why you can't seem to accept who we are, but I'll tell you right here, right now: THOSE are us! THEY are Romania! Our symbolical personalities! I don't care if you don't like them, it doesn't affect their importance and representativeness in any way! Those are us, the Romanians, and you'd better deal with it! Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 08:10, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Seriously? A collage of 40 tiny specks, without even a caption telling us who they are? That has to be the most absurd misuse of the gallery concept ever. In any case, since the image file lacks proper sourcing and probably contains copyvios (as did pretty much all previous collages that I've seen here), and will almost certainly be deleted from Commons within a few days, and in light of the strongly emerging consensus at WP:WikiProject Ethnic groups, I'm removing it again, for the moment. I'm giving formal warning: I will request blocks for any editor who inserts or reinserts a gallery without at least proper source and copyright documentation for each component image. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:51, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
block evasion |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Fut.Perf. Can you give a reason, a good one, for which the Romanians shouldn't have a gallery like everyone else? There was one at the beginning of this year, good one, representative, with all notable Romanians, their ancestors, and it was labeled. Why it got deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.123.127.180 ( talk) 06:07, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Fut.Perf. Oh, but why it shouldn't? All other ethnic groups have! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.123.127.180 ( talk) 08:06, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Well can't you just "discuss" faster? Don't you realize that all this while, we have no representatives, and people maybe laughing at us or mocking us over it? Yes, there actually are some people! You really have no idea how much harm you do to us, do you? And no, I don't understand what is even to be discussed so much! Romanians chose their representatives already. Just go to 100 Greatest Romanians and pick 20-30 of them for a gallery, or even the first 20-30! It shouldn't be rocket science to pick the top representatives of a people from the once that they chose! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.123.127.180 ( talk) 08:21, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
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130.204.90.195, while editors are encouraged to be WP:BOLD, they are also asked to be cautious. The latest round of content changes to statistics, as well as the addition of a gallery of 27 demographic maps with nothing to indicate their significance in line with the text seems to be less than productive or edifying for the reader.
Firstly, census statistics are the WP:PRIMARY source used to base stats on, however reliably sourced and verifiable supplementary WP:SECONDARY sources are valid. As an aside, referring to their use as ' vandalism' and 'falsification' is contrary to assuming good faith... in fact, it's downright uncivil when a contributor has been reverted by other editors. Also, it would be appreciated if you paid attention to what you are reverting to when there have been multiple fixes to references, copyediting, etc. between that which you believe to be correct and the current state of the article (see this in order to view how much you've undone in order to change two figures to the ones you prefer).
If you are contesting content, or if you want to add extensive content that doesn't particularly make sense to other editors, it is expected that you engage in the Bold → Revert → Discuss process. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 21:19, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
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What is the difference between Vlachs and Romanians? Why these articles are not merged together? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.239.218.30 ( talk) 12:06, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
There is a lot of interesting and useful information here, but parts of this could be written a bit more clearly so it doesn't seem to contradict other parts of it, which is often a problem on a wiki. I've seen a variety of studies done; is 10% meant to be an overall average of R1b for all counties, because most estimates from studies I've seen were higher and closer to 20%, with a few being slightly above it, but mostly in the upper teens from what I recall. I'll look for some examples. Also, what's the point of describing the R1a as general 'satem' (either Baltic or Slavic) influence? It's almost positive that it comes from Slavic speaking populations, and I don't recall there being any evidence of the Baltic speaking family reaching Romanian territory. Might as well just say Slavic. The Dark Age migrations happened after those two closely related families differentiated. Another thing is the comment about Aromanians: on the genetic section of the Aromanian page itself, it says they are still rather closely related to surrounding Balkan populations, which aren't that differentiated. But on here it says they have a strong input from the 'Roman West', whatever that means. I've noticed many people making the assumption, for some reason, that Aromanians are actually mainly descended from Romans while Romanians were just Romanized, and I'm not sure what the evidence for this is (I'm not advocating that either are descended significantly from Romans, and believe they are essentially the existing native peoples with some later various influences, and they probably once formed a close continuum of Eastern Romance speakers before splitting up 1000 years ago; conversely, I'm also not saying it's impossible that Vlachs do have a bit of contribution from the west, but it needs to be supported). I have a feeling that it's largely anecdotal and many people just base it on the fact that Aromanians have a somewhat more 'southern' leaning appearance (more likely due to Greek admixture), and sometimes a southwestern European look, but that alone is not enough to make a judgment like that and a valid theory. Regarding the high incidence of R1b in Aromanians, which is certainly real: it's unclear what the paragraph is trying to say, because it seems to say that it's an eastern clade, like L23. In that case, that's not evidence of strong Italic input since it's not the western Alpine-Appennine branch. So this could be clarified a bit. Word dewd544 ( talk) 02:35, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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People of Romanian ethnicity and people of Romanian nationality are both referred to by the term "Romanians". This conflation of ethnicity and nationality is also characteristic of other ethnicities and nationalities in Europe and beyond. The implications of these conflations for the primary topic of Wikipedia articles has been discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#"Germans", "French people" etc - ethnicity vs nationality. This issue is also of relevance to our article on Romanians. That leads to the question: What should be the primary topic of this article?
Krakkos ( talk) 16:11, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
Perceived, yes. But ask them to use MyHeritage, 23andMe, etc., and you shall find that pure Romanian ethnicity does not exist. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 22:14, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Several times the opinion of the Thede Kahl was manipulated and his name deleted from this section. Jingiby ( talk) 17:10, 6 March 2021 (UTC) . Jingiby ( talk) 17:10, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Jingiby, could you please cite me the sentence that you cite from reference 104? In that book, there's a separate section for Romanians (in around page 730) and another one for Vlachs (which seems to be talking about Aromanians and starts at page 931, which you cited). Are you sure that the sentence you added refers to Romanians? Super Ψ Dro 14:07, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Super your recent edits here, appear to be intentional disruptions designed to illustrate a point. Edits designed for the deliberate purpose of drawing opposition, including making edits you do not agree with or enforcing a rule in a generally unpopular way, are highly disruptive. A claims as source falsification, which are very offensive, that is claimed only because you simply disagree with someone's actions in an article, is unacceptable. Rather do than, please try to sway with disruptive tactics. Thanks. Jingiby ( talk) 17:02, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Jingiby, all of this content you've added is a bunch of WP:SYNTH. None of the sources you used explicitly stated that the term "Romanian" has any direct connection to the term "Rum" or "Roman" in the Christian sense. Please refrain from these activities and bring sources actually illustrating the point you're supporting, not ignorant sources stating that "Wallachian" was being replaced by "Romanian" or that the "Wallachian language" exists. Super Ψ Dro 12:46, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
While ethnic Romanians who convert to Islam or Judaism do exist, they are scarce enough to consider it WP:FRINGE. I mean they are less numerous than the cult Worshippers of Onion, and that's a cult most Romanians don't know that it exists. tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I posted the real number of Romanian immigrants in Italy estimated by projections of past trends. The Romanian user keeps adding as source the census which only shows citizens with a permanent residence, so understimating the real number of Romanians in Italy. It is even written in the link he posted. Opinions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeyc91 ( talk • contribs) 14:08, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
"In 2010 Istat started working on the new round of Census. Carried out every ten years, the survey paints a picture of the country on the basis of uniform criteria, thus allowing for comparisons at European and international level. In October 2010 the 6th Census of agriculture started. In October 2011, the 15th Census of population and housing and the 9th Census of industry and services will start.". Does anything strike you about the statement? Firstly, the statistics in their database which you are accessing are based on old census information. They talk about October of 2011 in the future tense. Read their legal disclaimer. Enough said? -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 22:37, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
1) The 997,000 figure was initially posted by me and comes from one of the last ISTAT paper. 2) This figures I've posted, are including all the immigrants now working and residing in Italy and not just the ones who have the permanent residence here. It's not that 400.000 and more Romanians in Italy disappear just because they prefer to keep their legal residence in their home country. So I stand correct. 3) Please post the link where the ISTAT itself admitted that it overstated the number of immigrants (from ALL countries). This is the last update from their official website. The numbers are in line with those of older estimates
http://www.istat.it/it/archivio/129854
4) I can easily show you how your census admits that it only counts immigrants with the legal permanent residence in Italy.
-- Joeyc91 ( talk) 17:40, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
As a Jew, I take issue with Jews (along with other non-Romanian peoples) being classified as Ethnic Romanians. Especially in light of Anti Semitic theories such as the Khazar Theory, I resent that Romanian Jews are classified as Vlachs and other types of Romanian (forgive my archaic wording) ethnics. The converse, I imagine, applies to Romanian ethnics in Israel.
There needs to be, I feel, a separate page for Ethnic Romanians and Non-Romanian ethnic groups in Romania. 74.103.28.81 ( talk) 23:50, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
These numbers keep going up and down since certain users (I will not say who) inflate them with irrelevant data just for the sake of making them look larger. The official census data from Italy in 2011 but released in December 2013 so basically the most recent data cites 800,000. However, numbers keep going up citing istat data from 2012 and 2013 which are just estimates (933,000, 1081,000). 104.254.93.198 ( talk) 23:43, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Those are not estimates. ISTAT is adding the number of registered new immigrants to the 2011 census. Read the link I've posted. Joeyc91 ( talk) 16:11, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
You can't even read the link I've provided to you. That's what it says. Click on Note to read it.
"La popolazione straniera residente è costituita dalle persone di cittadinanza non italiana aventi dimora abituale in Italia; viene calcolata, per ciascun comune, al 31 dicembre di ogni anno successivo al Censimento della popolazione, sommando alla popolazione straniera censita come residente nel comune, il movimento anagrafico registrato nel corso di ciascun periodo. Nel caso specifico dell’anno 2011, la popolazione al 31 dicembre del 2011 è stata calcolata con il medesimo criterio, a partire dai dati del Censimento al 9 ottobre 2011 e utilizzando il movimento anagrafico registrato nel periodo 9 ottobre - 31 dicembre 2011.
Sul sito, in una sezione dedicata, è pubblicata anche la serie pre-censuaria dei dati del bilancio demografico della popolazione straniera residente, a partire dall’anno 2002. Tra i dati relativi al periodo 1° gennaio 2002 - 8 ottobre 2011 e i successivi esiste una discontinuità nella serie storica, determinata dal XV Censimento della Popolazione. La serie storica coerente verrà determinata successivamente attraverso la ricostruzione dei bilanci del periodo intercensuario.
Per una migliore interpretazione degli eventi demografici che hanno caratterizzato il movimento della popolazione straniera residente nel corso del periodo, si richiama l'attenzione sulle poste del bilancio demografico.
Le iscrizioni si distinguono in: Iscrizioni per nascita: nati nel corso del periodo da genitori entrambi stranieri, almeno uno dei quali residente nel comune. La nascita fa riferimento alla data di registrazione dell'atto in anagrafe e non alla data effettiva dell'evento. Iscrizioni da altro comune: cittadini stranieri iscritti in anagrafe per trasferimento di residenza da un altro comune italiano. Iscrizioni dall'estero: cittadini stranieri iscritti in anagrafe per trasferimento di residenza dall'estero; Iscrizioni per altri motivi: cittadini stranieri iscritti in anagrafe per altri motivi non altrove classificabili. Le cancellazioni si distinguono in:
Cancellazioni per morte: cittadini stranieri residenti deceduti nel periodo. La morte fa riferimento alla data di registrazione dell'atto in anagrafe e non alla data effettiva dell'evento. Cancellazioni per altro comune: cittadini stranieri cancellati dall'anagrafe per trasferimento di residenza in altro comune italiano. Cancellazioni per l'estero: cittadini stranieri cancellati dall'anagrafe per trasferimento di residenza all'estero. Acquisizioni di cittadinanza italiana: individui cancellati dalle liste dei residenti di cittadinanza straniera e registrati in quelle della popolazione italiana residente; tali cancellazioni, pertanto, non influiscono sulla variazione del numero complessivo degli iscritti in anagrafe. Cancellazioni per altri motivi: cittadini stranieri cancellati dall'anagrafe per altri motivi non altrove classificabili (ad es. a seguito di definizione di procedimento di irreperibilità ordinaria, per mancato rinnovo della dichiarazione di dimora abituale a seguito di scadenza del permesso di soggiorno, ecc.)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeyc91 ( talk • contribs) 10:02, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
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@ Iryna Harpy: I would be interested in discussing reintroducing the gallery to the infobox. I do not see where anyone called it "redundant" or where this consensus to remove it is; in fact two admins reverted back to it. What is your issue now? -- Steverci ( talk) 23:08, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
"What is your issue now?. Comment on content, not on the contributor. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 23:31, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Try reading
WP:CON again. Where did you get the impression that "When someone reverts it, that is the moment consensus is lost."
? The same place where you got the two non-existent admins (something you'd copied from another comment from an inexperienced user)? Please read
WP:TALKDONTREVERT, and take note that it wasn't consensus between two editors over a year ago (try reading this talk page properly), and that a single
WP:BATTLEGROUND editor continuing to push the issue doesn't mean that it's time to reintroduce something dismissed as the result of protracted edit warring and, most importantly, because regular editors had enough of the only activity on this article revolving around who should be in the gallery and who should not. Sorry, but I'm not budging. The only revert made to the removal was by one user who didn't join in on the discussion regarding removing the gallery, and has since added content without showing any interest in the existence or non-existence of a gallery. Add to that the fact that I don't see any other editors even wanting to join in in supporting you on this discussion and I understand that to be an indicator of consensus. Please
drop the stick; it's getting
WP:TEDIOUS. --
Iryna Harpy (
talk)
04:46, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
of an editor who has been blocked over 10 times, reverting me and telling me not to edit war, in the edit summary of his revert... Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 08:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
Do you think a paper encyclopedia ever has this sort of bullshit drama about what image to use to represent a race? Of course not, they put an image and accept that while a few people will get mildly annoyed over the image choice, the vast majority of readers will never care. This article is being treated as if it's for the editors, not as if it's for readers. Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 06:25, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
I suggest a pause of this discussion until we have an outcome in the debate that is taking place in a broader framework here. Hahun ( talk) 11:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello, may I know what's your problem? You deleted a beautiful gallery filled only with ethnic Romanians and Romanian ancestors. May I know why? Why this hate towards our national personalities? What was even the consensus anyway? "Duh, let's be unjust to the representatives of a country that never wronged us in any way!" Yeah, very professional! -_-
Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 16:34, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
I noticed the gallery is gone for some reason. Please restore it. The Romanian language page has a gallery, use that pleasse https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rom%C3%A2ni — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.43.205 ( talk) 23:47, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
consensus is about making a compromise that editors are happy with, until you get that agreement you do not have consensus. Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 06:33, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
It is a pity that this article does not have a gallery, like the most articles describing ethnic groups. I think the debate should be resumed and we should make efforts to gain a consensus on the names to be included in the gallery. Hahun ( talk) 12:50, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Right now, we have no consensus either way. Removing the gallery and bringing it back both results in reverts, so we can work here to achieve consensus. Hopefully, we can gain it with discussion, as a constant revert cycle doesn't seem like fun. Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 06:16, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I'm being rude. Iryna, come join this discussion please. You seem to have knowledge and experience of this article, consensus seems somewhat lost right now, do you have any ideas how we could improve this article, in regards to the gallery? Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 06:18, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
File:Representative Romanians.jpg
1st row:
Basarab I of Wallachia •
Mircea I of Wallachia •
Vlad the Impaler •
John Hunyadi
2nd row:
Stephen the Great •
Michael the Brave •
Constantin Brancoveanu •
Horea
3rd row:
Nicolae Balcescu •
Mihai Eminescu •
Marie of Romania •
Ionel Bratianu
4th row:
George Enescu •
Constantin Brancusi •
Mircea Eliade •
Eugen Ionesco
5th row:
Henri Coanda •
George Emil Palade •
Nadia Comaneci •
Gheorghe Hagi
what specific problems do editors see with that gallery, and what changes would they suggest to improve it? Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 06:22, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I came to this page after reading this posting at the Help Desk. I have read the arguments above, and do not understand the opposition to a gallery. Other articles on ethnicities have galleries, and I have enjoyed looking at them, and have learned from them (and reacted e.g. "I'd never realised that she was Polish!"). I understand there have been problems in the past, with editors including people who are not ethnically Romanian. And I think I see why this is a particular problem in this article: some patriotic Romanians have a tendency to claim credit for things that are not really Romanian. But I am surprised that this can't be overcome. Incidentally, I see the specimen gallery above includes Marie of Romania, whose grandparents were German, English, and Russian, with no evidence of Romanian ancestry. Maproom ( talk) 09:31, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
We can't have a gallery with psycho-Vlad in it, with so many brilliant scientists, inventors and other technocrats omitted while we add Eminescu, Hagi and Nadia. And what's Horea doing there? Also, Iancu hasn't done a great deal for his ethnicity, so remove him as well. Balcescu fought the Greeks from recreating the Byzantine Empire: why is he there? Conclusion: no gallery. -- Cei Trei ( talk) 16:02, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
As a compromise, I say we only add one photo to represent Romanians: the painting of Stephen. That will make everyone content. Well, almost everyone. -- Cei Trei ( talk) 01:31, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
I am against the inclusion of the painting of Stephen the Great of Moldavia in the infobox. It is not the most illustrative image for this topic. Hahun ( talk) 11:05, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
You have to understand: Until you reach your "consensus", our people remain with no representatives, and that's humiliating, as there are next to no ethnic groups without representatives. Even very small ones, like the Gibraltarians, have a list of representatives. I don't know what's your beef with our people, why you can't seem to accept who we are, but I'll tell you right here, right now: THOSE are us! THEY are Romania! Our symbolical personalities! I don't care if you don't like them, it doesn't affect their importance and representativeness in any way! Those are us, the Romanians, and you'd better deal with it! Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 08:10, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Seriously? A collage of 40 tiny specks, without even a caption telling us who they are? That has to be the most absurd misuse of the gallery concept ever. In any case, since the image file lacks proper sourcing and probably contains copyvios (as did pretty much all previous collages that I've seen here), and will almost certainly be deleted from Commons within a few days, and in light of the strongly emerging consensus at WP:WikiProject Ethnic groups, I'm removing it again, for the moment. I'm giving formal warning: I will request blocks for any editor who inserts or reinserts a gallery without at least proper source and copyright documentation for each component image. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:51, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
block evasion |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Fut.Perf. Can you give a reason, a good one, for which the Romanians shouldn't have a gallery like everyone else? There was one at the beginning of this year, good one, representative, with all notable Romanians, their ancestors, and it was labeled. Why it got deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.123.127.180 ( talk) 06:07, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Fut.Perf. Oh, but why it shouldn't? All other ethnic groups have! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.123.127.180 ( talk) 08:06, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Well can't you just "discuss" faster? Don't you realize that all this while, we have no representatives, and people maybe laughing at us or mocking us over it? Yes, there actually are some people! You really have no idea how much harm you do to us, do you? And no, I don't understand what is even to be discussed so much! Romanians chose their representatives already. Just go to 100 Greatest Romanians and pick 20-30 of them for a gallery, or even the first 20-30! It shouldn't be rocket science to pick the top representatives of a people from the once that they chose! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.123.127.180 ( talk) 08:21, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
|
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130.204.90.195, while editors are encouraged to be WP:BOLD, they are also asked to be cautious. The latest round of content changes to statistics, as well as the addition of a gallery of 27 demographic maps with nothing to indicate their significance in line with the text seems to be less than productive or edifying for the reader.
Firstly, census statistics are the WP:PRIMARY source used to base stats on, however reliably sourced and verifiable supplementary WP:SECONDARY sources are valid. As an aside, referring to their use as ' vandalism' and 'falsification' is contrary to assuming good faith... in fact, it's downright uncivil when a contributor has been reverted by other editors. Also, it would be appreciated if you paid attention to what you are reverting to when there have been multiple fixes to references, copyediting, etc. between that which you believe to be correct and the current state of the article (see this in order to view how much you've undone in order to change two figures to the ones you prefer).
If you are contesting content, or if you want to add extensive content that doesn't particularly make sense to other editors, it is expected that you engage in the Bold → Revert → Discuss process. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 21:19, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
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What is the difference between Vlachs and Romanians? Why these articles are not merged together? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.239.218.30 ( talk) 12:06, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
There is a lot of interesting and useful information here, but parts of this could be written a bit more clearly so it doesn't seem to contradict other parts of it, which is often a problem on a wiki. I've seen a variety of studies done; is 10% meant to be an overall average of R1b for all counties, because most estimates from studies I've seen were higher and closer to 20%, with a few being slightly above it, but mostly in the upper teens from what I recall. I'll look for some examples. Also, what's the point of describing the R1a as general 'satem' (either Baltic or Slavic) influence? It's almost positive that it comes from Slavic speaking populations, and I don't recall there being any evidence of the Baltic speaking family reaching Romanian territory. Might as well just say Slavic. The Dark Age migrations happened after those two closely related families differentiated. Another thing is the comment about Aromanians: on the genetic section of the Aromanian page itself, it says they are still rather closely related to surrounding Balkan populations, which aren't that differentiated. But on here it says they have a strong input from the 'Roman West', whatever that means. I've noticed many people making the assumption, for some reason, that Aromanians are actually mainly descended from Romans while Romanians were just Romanized, and I'm not sure what the evidence for this is (I'm not advocating that either are descended significantly from Romans, and believe they are essentially the existing native peoples with some later various influences, and they probably once formed a close continuum of Eastern Romance speakers before splitting up 1000 years ago; conversely, I'm also not saying it's impossible that Vlachs do have a bit of contribution from the west, but it needs to be supported). I have a feeling that it's largely anecdotal and many people just base it on the fact that Aromanians have a somewhat more 'southern' leaning appearance (more likely due to Greek admixture), and sometimes a southwestern European look, but that alone is not enough to make a judgment like that and a valid theory. Regarding the high incidence of R1b in Aromanians, which is certainly real: it's unclear what the paragraph is trying to say, because it seems to say that it's an eastern clade, like L23. In that case, that's not evidence of strong Italic input since it's not the western Alpine-Appennine branch. So this could be clarified a bit. Word dewd544 ( talk) 02:35, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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People of Romanian ethnicity and people of Romanian nationality are both referred to by the term "Romanians". This conflation of ethnicity and nationality is also characteristic of other ethnicities and nationalities in Europe and beyond. The implications of these conflations for the primary topic of Wikipedia articles has been discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#"Germans", "French people" etc - ethnicity vs nationality. This issue is also of relevance to our article on Romanians. That leads to the question: What should be the primary topic of this article?
Krakkos ( talk) 16:11, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
Perceived, yes. But ask them to use MyHeritage, 23andMe, etc., and you shall find that pure Romanian ethnicity does not exist. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 22:14, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Several times the opinion of the Thede Kahl was manipulated and his name deleted from this section. Jingiby ( talk) 17:10, 6 March 2021 (UTC) . Jingiby ( talk) 17:10, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Jingiby, could you please cite me the sentence that you cite from reference 104? In that book, there's a separate section for Romanians (in around page 730) and another one for Vlachs (which seems to be talking about Aromanians and starts at page 931, which you cited). Are you sure that the sentence you added refers to Romanians? Super Ψ Dro 14:07, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Super your recent edits here, appear to be intentional disruptions designed to illustrate a point. Edits designed for the deliberate purpose of drawing opposition, including making edits you do not agree with or enforcing a rule in a generally unpopular way, are highly disruptive. A claims as source falsification, which are very offensive, that is claimed only because you simply disagree with someone's actions in an article, is unacceptable. Rather do than, please try to sway with disruptive tactics. Thanks. Jingiby ( talk) 17:02, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Jingiby, all of this content you've added is a bunch of WP:SYNTH. None of the sources you used explicitly stated that the term "Romanian" has any direct connection to the term "Rum" or "Roman" in the Christian sense. Please refrain from these activities and bring sources actually illustrating the point you're supporting, not ignorant sources stating that "Wallachian" was being replaced by "Romanian" or that the "Wallachian language" exists. Super Ψ Dro 12:46, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
While ethnic Romanians who convert to Islam or Judaism do exist, they are scarce enough to consider it WP:FRINGE. I mean they are less numerous than the cult Worshippers of Onion, and that's a cult most Romanians don't know that it exists. tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)