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Can more information about this group be provided? I note that it has met in different cities over the last four or five years but I can't find very detailed information about its history/background, event content, attendance, etc. It would be useful to know who organizes and hosts it, and if it has a public webpage or community forum. If this is an authentic and authoritative body, it probably needs a Wikipedia page as well. 50.54.225.39 ( talk) 00:32, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
"Spelunky (2008) by Derek Yu, The Binding of Isaac (2011) by Edmund McMillian, Dungeons of Dredmor (2011) by Gaslamp Games, and FTL: Faster Than Light (2012) by Subset Games were all..." - why does the article specify the developers of these games? That hardly seems important, unless the developers themselves are now really big in making roguelike games. Should I remove the "by..." parts? Maplestrip ( talk) 09:43, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
I added a redundant-tag to the Gameplay and design-section, which was removed with the following comment: "honestly ,I'm not seeing what is repetative about this. While there might be common elements of the Early RGs and Berlin section, the latter is a formalized definition and by necessity will repeat things" Let's look at what is going on:
Early Roguelikes: "Levels are procedurally generated each time a new game is started"; Berlin Interpretation: "Roguelike games randomly generate dungeon levels,"
Early Roguelikes: "and special magical items like potions or wands are named by random descriptor ("a bubbly potion", for example) until the item is identified, with the descriptors being shuffled each game"; Berlin Interpretation: "The identity of magical items varies across games. Newly discovered objects only offer a vague physical description that is randomized between games, with purposes and capabilities left unstated. For example, a "bubbly" potion might heal wounds one game, then poison the player character in the next."
Early Roguelikes: "Gameplay is turn-based, with the player moving the character one tile or performing one action, with all the other monsters then taking their turns"; Berlin Interpretation: "The combat system is turn-based instead of real-time."
Early Roguelikes: Not mentioned; Berlin Interpretation: "Most are single-player games."
Early Roguelikes: "Another core feature is the concept of 'permadeath'" (+ stuff about saving); Berlin Interpretation: "Roguelikes traditionally implement permadeath." (+ stuff about saving)
I understand why it is done like this, but the article is literally repeating itself. There seems to be barely any difference between the Early Roguelikes section and The Berlin Interpretation section other than how they are phrased and referenced. This might make sense from a referencing point-of-view, but a reader will only really see the same information being repeated. I added a tag rather than try to fix it because I don't know how to fix this. Thoughts? Maplestrip ( talk) 18:37, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Can someone please add in references to Omega. I played it and really enjoyed it. It is like Larn / Moria in that you have dungeons, but you also get to travel around on the surface. When you're on your horse in the wilderness your food goes really fast - so you can die easily. It also had gods that you had to align yourself with (I don't think Nethack has this).
Here are some websites that refer to it: http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Omega http://www.roguetemple.com/2008/02/13/omega-for-windows-updated/ (also http://www.prankster.com/winomega/ and http://www.alcyone.com/max/projects/omega/ )
How important was it in the evolution of Roguelike Games? The first two links indicate that it influenced ADOM. It was released in the late 1980s. Lehasa ( talk) 15:36, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
We need a section to show people that Nethack and Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup are excellent games that are still very popular today. Are there others which many people still play? Lehasa ( talk) 15:40, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
I copied the lead section of this article into Role-playing_video_game#Roguelikes. The problem is that I don't know which references back up the content in the lead, since it is missing inline references. Could someone look it over and add the necessary citations? SharkD Talk 19:10, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Indrian ( talk · contribs) 17:21, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Always nice to see a key slice of video game history come up in GA. It would be my pleasure to give this a go. Indrian ( talk) 17:21, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Okay, here we go. This is a great article, so I just have a few language tweaks and the like. Detailed comments below. I am going to have to do this in a couple of chunks. I will let you know at the end of the review when I am finished. Indrian ( talk) 17:49, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
DoneThis section is entirely unsourced. This is GA, not FA, so I don't feel that every last statement needs to be attributed, but an entire section without a source is problematic.
And that's it. I made a lot of grammar tweaks in addition to the comments above. Content-wise, the article is fantastic, but structurally it may need some work. Nothing that cannot be fixed in relatively short order, however, so I will place this article
On hold pending improvements.
Indrian (
talk)
21:21, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
The article doesn't mention any party-based roguelikes, which are an important departure from the standard development characteristics, IMO. Examples include GearHead, S.C.O.U.R.G.E. and Mysterious Castle. SharkD Talk 20:52, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Like in theme, Roguelike games mainly at the beginning was characterized by random localisations and incalculable actions which made that type of game very difficult, in past, commonly called as arcade game. Weak graphics in the beginning of computer technology caused that games weak graphics ability. Because of technology there was no possibility to save progress of game, at the beginning when character died that was his permanent dead. Is today's permadeath mode introduced in today's game the same , and we can say that games from 80 introduced permadeath. I think this is not correct theory. In that way we can notify that first cosmology introduced Indians.-- Darek555 ( talk) 18:24, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
In this section please make simple clear reply, in accordance wikipedia as professional scientific place.
These are all answered but to be specific:
I think it shows lack of clarity and creativity to call any games "Something-like". We don't call Fantasy RPG "Dragon Age Like" or SciFi RPG "Mass Effect Like" or any Fantasy Movie / Novel as "Tolkien-Like". No Single author, or game or creation is a genre of its own.
So Rogue-Like should fall either to "platformer" or "casual games" if it does not have anything unique but lack of save feature ("perma death is not a requirement")
MMORPG now should be called WOW-Like
FPS now should be called Doom-Like
RTS now should be called C&C-Like
jRPG now should be called Final-Fantasy-Like
Platformers now should be called Mario-Bros-Like
Sandbox Games now should be called GTA-Like
~~William 15 Sep 2016
The reason why no one can come up with alternative name for Roguelike is because it is lacking a clearly defined feature; which should lead to the actual question as to whether the so called genre actually exist. e.g. the word "Bae" in cultural teen talk can mean anything from "baby" to "good" to "Shit", i.e. the word can mean anything because it does not really exist. Roguelike is an imaginary word that can describe anything the marketer want it to describe, and I don't think Wikipedia should be ground for imaginary marketing word as it create justification for its existence. People assume it is a legitimate word because it is included in Encyclopedia Britannica / Wikipedia
While it is a justifiable argument that Wikipedia does not "name things", if Gaming taxonomy is to be taken seriously; the quality of Wikipedia article standards and its integrity is at stake here, else it would be just another "Urban dictionary online".
~~ William 12 Oct 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.66.144.38 ( talk • contribs)
Shouldn't there be such a separate section? Especially before the genre's resurgence in indie games, there was a small, devoted and almost cult-like community to these games. Example, see what I found from a five-minute search: Gamasutra: "overlap between player and developer" especially Josh Ge's quotations. One current given ref "Where I'm @: A Brief Look At The Resurgence of Roguelikes" says stuff like " For all the supposed elitism of roguelikes, I've never encountered communities which are more welcoming, sharing and friendly..." and goes on further. There's must be more refs too. Ugog Nizdast ( talk) 14:38, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Should we create a Category:Roguelike-like video games category? What games should go in it? SharkD Talk 21:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
In this article Jaakko Tapani Peltonen of NetHack: Falcon's Eye talks about some of the positive traits and disadvantages of roguelikes when compared with other CRPG genres. It is his opinion of course. It might be useful for the article though. SharkD Talk 23:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
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As time goes, roguelike-likes are becoming far more common, and the lack of a separate page and categories is resulting in a lot of miscategorization and misinformation. As of right now, Roguelite redirects to this page, although I've made it at least redirect to the roguelike-likes subsection.
-- Asmageddon ( talk) 20:27, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
I'd personally say as the genres diversify from one another it will eventually be needed for posterity sake of the roguelike genre. We already have Risk of Rain and Risk of Rain 2(henceforth shortened to RoR and RoR2) being quantified as "roguelikes" when they literally share about as much in common with the roguelike genre than tetris. Neither RoR or RoR2 have procedural generation(henceforth referred to as proc-gen) of levels, neither have the turnbased, nor tactical components, neither have any real elements that make roguelikes roguelikes save for permadeath. The snes tetris also used a randomization algorithm for its pieces so one could make the argument that its "technically" proc-gen. Tetris likewise eschews the tactical components, the RPG elements etc. Snes version Tetris is both permadeath and proc-gen whereas RoR and RoR2 use slight and incremental variation of the same level/area. So then the Snes version of Tetris is a "roguelike" if we allow the dilution of the genre that RoR and RoR2 and other games of similar vein create.
As more and more roguelites diversify from the origin of the genre of roguelike in increasing ways and increasingly different ways we will see either one of two things, the collapse of the genre into a meaningless term tossed around with complete disregard, or we will see a split between the two genres. I'd rather the split because at least then the genre has purpose. 47.72.113.98 ( talk) 02:21, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
I already made a couple minor edits adding this word in but the whole article might need to be reworded for better comprehension. Unless "run" is more of a modern, roguelite thing and people don't call Rogue games "runs". The sentence "The identity of magical items, including magically enchanted items, varies across games." just sounds wrong since the meaning can be interpreted two different ways. Give me your thoughts. Ben R4m-Z ( talk) 17:10, 7 October 2018
I looked through the references, and I couldn't find a single one that used the term roguelike-like. Even the interview with Digital Eel, the only developers who are referenced to have used it, indicates that they dropped the extra "-like" early on and believe that roguelike is the proper umbrella term. Everyone from fans to industry to the press only uses the terms roguelike and roguelite, so the constant use of this term in "Growth of the roguelike-like" smells very WP:NEO.
Based on this article, it appears to now be a joke term.
Perhaps "Evolution of the Roguelike" would be a better section header, and the use of "traditional roguelike" when necessary to refer to the strict "Berlin interpretation" games. -- SilverbackNet talk 20:59, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
To the IP editor that keeps adding this: I am well aware that a minority of die-hard, Berlin Interpretation-roguelike players take issue with the use of "roguelike" to describe the newer games ala Spleunky. Unfortunately, we don't have any reliable sources that make this case, and we are required to have those. We cannot just make claims without such sources (that's original research), and its also a minority viewpoint, and so forcing that is against the neutral POV policy.
If you continue to try to add it without showing sources, you will likely be blocked. -- Masem ( t) 13:24, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
To co-opt something is to assign usage to that unlike the original. The usage of the word co-opting is correct in context. The same way that it would be correct in context if every pop music band were to suddenly call themselves metal they could easily co-opt the term "metal" in reference to musical genres. Would this be accurate to the music genre? No. Would this be accurate to history? No. Would this be accurate to what the genre is at its core? No. What you and others propose for the definition of roguelike being synonymous with roguelite is nothing more than argumentum ad populum. /info/en/?search=Argumentum_ad_populum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.72.113.98 ( talk) 00:05, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
The sources you're asking for are the simple fact that roguelites are quite frankly unlike the genre defining games, as the article states. The sources you ask for are quite frankly within wikipedia itself in the articles present state and in its edit history. To call such games roguelikes when they are roguelites is inherently an act of co-opting in the same vein that calling pop music "metal" would be an act of co-opting. It is inherently an act of co-opting in the same vein that usage of the pentagram by those of Satanists, Laveyan or otherwise is a co-opting of the symbol from paganism and potentially other earlier religions/folklore.
To say that this is not an act of co-opting is to eschew both the definition of the word "co-opting"("to divert to or use in a role different from the usual or original one") as well as to ignore the original definition of the term "roguelike." If one were to say it were an "intentional co-opting," well now then they've got to prove intent, and that is a whole separate kettle of fish. 47.72.113.98 ( talk) 01:12, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Also try again without the argumentum ad populum 47.72.113.98 ( talk) 01:33, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Most of these "reliable sources" also go against all the resources that cite the original definition of roguelike. This is blatant evidence of co-opting.
Lastly most of these "reliable sources" use the argumentum ad populum based on the idea that Spelunky is a roguelike when its not even an RPG so it aught to be disqualified by not fitting into the first category let alone its subcategory. It'd be akin to calling frogs a subspecies of waterfowl because "both frogs and ducks have webbed feet" 47.72.113.98 ( talk) 03:57, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Thats the thing though, it is co-opting as it is taking a term specifically used and made for the usage to define a genre of game, then twisting said term to be wholly unlike its source. That is the literal definition of co-opting within the context by which its used. To say it is co-opting with intent is arguable. To say that it is or isnt co-opting is not arguable. It is an act of co-opting by the very definition of the word "co-opt" regardless of intent. To say otherwise is to ignore the very definition of the word "co-opt" 47.72.113.98 ( talk) 04:50, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
121.75.204.98 ( talk) 05:59, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Nowhere in the contextually accurate definitions of "co-opt" did it say intent mattered. Intent does not mattter as to whether or not a thing is co-opted. Using a traditionally tied Hijab as a fashion piece when one is outside of the Muslim faith is an act of co-opting regardless or intent. The act of calling a california roll "sushi" is inherently a co-opting of the term regardless of intent.(hate to bring in godwins law, so forgive me here but) The co-opting of the Swastika as a piece symbol and redefining as the Nazi flag is an act of co-opting regardless of intent. The change from roguelike to roguelite is co-opting regardless of intent. There's also the fact that most traditional roguelikes had small and independent teams working on them so the part that cites roguelites have "smaller and independent teams" is erroneous as roguelikes have the same qualifier. Lastly stating that roguelites are roguelikes with the line the "successes of these modern roguelikes" is erroneous. We also have modern roguelikes that are actual roguelikes being developed, both in and out of the commercial market. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 17:50, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Your opinion does not reflect history. The roguelike-like term was coined(and then shifted to roguelite as of 2013) specifically to separate games that do not fit within the genre. saying that they are the same genre is an inherent co-opting while also erasing a term used to define a genre. 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 18:12, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
The industry is wrong, period. The industry only cares about what sells, as such it has co-opted the term roguelike to fit roguelites as the populous at large does not distinguish between the two. To say otherwise is just argumentum ad populum. Hell the article itself states roguelikes are RPG games, most roguelites eschew so many RPG elements that they dont even fit into the RPG genre, let alone the roguelike genre. That is a redefinition of terminology that is blatant, albeit mostly unwitting co-opting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 18:20, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
I do not "feel they are wrong," they are wrong period. They go against an established definition of an established game genre and lump games wholly unlike anything within the genre and claim they belong. That act is inherently the definition of the word co-opting within such a discussion context. One can argue intent, but the thing is that co-opting does not by definition require intent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 18:59, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Roguelikes are inherently RPG games correct? This is the definition that this very article states, it is the definition that all traditional roguelikes are made under and within. The trouble with saying that the people stating "roguelite is equivelant to roguelike" isnt an act of co-opting is that its saying that games that arent RPGs such as spelunky, Rogue Legacy etc fit under the same genre. You cannot state that games eschewing a genres core elements(in this context one of which being that roguelikes are inherently RPG games) fall within said genre without it being an inherent act of co-opting along the same lines as the hijab for fashion, along the same lines as the california roll as to traditional sushi, along the same lines as the swastikas original meaning an the nazi co-opting(again forgive the godwins law). 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 19:16, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Dear anonymous IP user - you are turning this matter into an edit war. Respectfully, please could you desist from repeating this edit while it is still not resolved in the talk page, and at least until such a time as you are able to provide valid sources to support your claim that the use of these terms is "wrong"? Wikipedia is not a place where we can decide ourselves what is the "right" or "wrong" use of a term, because that is original research. You have given your reasons as to why you think it is wrong. I disagree and have many reasons why I do not think it is wrong. However none of that is relevant, because the article has a multitude of relaible sources which DO apply this term to the games in question and, as of yet, no sources which suggest said usage is incorrect. If you can find a reliable source which supports your claim or perhaps some kind of definitive definition of "roguelike" which objectively excludes these games, then you could add a new section which disucsses this. Otherwise, I would request again, that you respect the Wikipedia conribution process and refrain from repeating the same edits seemingly in the hope that no one will notice. TheSLEEVEmonkey ( talk) 14:06, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Your sources are nothing more than argumentum ad populum. The original meaning is wildly different to the meaning wrongfully applied to the term roguelike. Ergo this is a co-opting of the term. 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 06:19, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Your continued reference to "ad populum" is reductive and non sensical in the context of this discussion. You claim that the sources are "nothing more than argumentum ad populum" however your only source is your own opinion. There is no "official" definition of what a roguelike game is, therefore, we must go by the common definition of that game, as per reliable sources. You frequently refer to "the original meaning" of rougelike - however you have no source which shows us what the original meaning is. There is no such source, because the term is informal and vague. This was the very point of the Berlin interpretation (to try to formalize the definition) and even they did not preclude these newer games from being roguelike.
So to summarize: A) There is no official or original meaning of Roguelike, B) we therefore must use what is the common definition of the term C) we find this common definition by using reliable sources - this is not the same as an ad populum argument and D) the one major attempt at creating an official definition did not preclude these more modern games from being considered roguelike. Please could you stop making edits until you at the very least provide a source which shows what the "original meaning" of the term is? TheSLEEVEmonkey ( talk) 10:05, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
There is an original definition though, games that are "like rogue" hence the genres title! Spelunky is no more like rogue than it is dance dance revolution. Is it now a rhythm game? That definition widened to include games that are like nethack, like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, like ADoM etc as genre defining games, however Spelunky, Rogue Legacy etc are not "like rogue" in any moderate capacity let alone a large one. They are no more Roguelikes than they are first person shooters. Furthermore there is a wide enough history on roguelites to be on their own page AWAY from the definition of roguelike, as they very well aught to be. They are not "like Rogue" nor like ADoM, nor Nethack, nor ToME nor any of the genres founding titles by any large capacity. To call any of the above titles "Roguelikes" is an inherent(though largely unwitting) co-opting of the term away from its very source. 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 20:06, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Howdy, Spelunky, Rogue Legacy and Weird Worlds (discussed above as allegedly not roguelike games) are all listed on Steam as roguelike. What source is there supporting the claim that they are not roguelike? The anonymous editor above does not provide one, so it seems to me like it's just one person's opinion; not what Wikipedia is about. EvolutionaryTheorist ( talk) 14:32, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
I do not provide a source as the reference is already listed by wikipedia in the article that you lot so crudely want to lump roguelites into. The USENET newsgroups established Rogue as the common denominator for roguelikes(hence the name "ROGUElikes"). Rogue is a tactical/strategic(some will say strategic, others tactical either way that argument is splitting hairs) tile based RPG with alphabet symbols representing tiles(technically not ASCII, as ASCII refers to making a whole image from letters/numbers), permadeath and procedural generated areas. Nethack was exactly that, as was Lynleys Dungeon Crawl(now DCSS), as was ToME, as was ADoM, these then became seen as equal genre definers as to the roguelike genre. This is fact, documented in this article and several of the references it draws from. Nethack then shifted to a full graphical-tile based system without losing its gameplay elements, as did DCSS and the other genre defining games(as to "when" I'd have to reference the specifics for DCSS, Nethack etc which isnt whats being discussed). As such we have a baseline of Rogue and games that fit within the genre with references already listed. Games that play like those are roguelikes. Those that are not like rogue but borrow elements of the genre are rogueLITES. A FPS with procedural generation, metaprogression and a lack of RPG elements(Immortal redneck) is not like rogue(a tactical, tilebased RPG, based on procedural generation and permadeath), nor is it like any of the genres defining games either. This isnt opinion, this is simple observation. A sidescrolling platformer that nixes all RPG elements and keeps naught but the procedural generation elements(spelunky) again is not like Rogue, nor like any of the genres defining games. A bullet hell that draws more from Legend of Zelda(Binding of Isaac) is not like Rogue, nor the genres defining games. Calling these games Roguelikes is inherently to draw the phrase "roguelike" away from ROGUE and the genres defining titles. Its no more valid than saying your fridge is a school-desk because they both have hinged draws. Lastly it is a valid co-opting simply because that's the VERY DEFINITION of co-opt in such a very context.
121.75.204.98 ( talk) 15:04, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
TBH we shouldnt use steam listings at all. According to steam Euro Truck simulator is a "racing game". According to steam portal is a "FPS". According to steam at one point "What Remains of Edith Finch" was also an "FPS"
This article is less valid than the reddit roguelike forum because of the addition of the roguelite section. Quite frankly for posterity and for accuracy that should be its own page. Roguelites are unlike rogue, they are unlike nethack, ADoM, lynleys dungeon crawl and every other actual roguelike. I was really rooting for the anon dude. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jofadda ( talk • contribs) 20:01, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
This discussion has already been resolved pending new reliable sources which support the claims made by the anon IP contributor. If you have such sources please provide them. Failing that, how about we try not to pollute the talk page too much? Can I recommend also that you review WP:SOCK rules and in particular WP:MEAT. As others have stated, Wikipedia can only summarize what the majority sources state. If anyone has issues with that, they should brigade the sources, not Wikipedia. Falling foul of WP:SOCK rules can lead to accounts and IP addresses being blocked from Wikipedia. TheSLEEVEmonkey ( talk) 11:28, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Is there a reason this article is still using this term? It is not a term used in any of the major game distribution platforms, news articles, or any relevant/recent sources I can find relating to roguelikes (I believe Nuclear Throne is the only game I can find that even references the term). Can we move to have this term removed (or at the very least mentioned far less) and replaced with the more modern term "Roguelite", which is much more prevalent? In particular "Roguelite" is widely used on Steam, within news articles (both minor and major), in reddit/forum communities, and perhaps most importantly referenced by many developers themselves as a descriptor for their games. Some examples of games directly citing the term include Dead Cells, Noita, Streets of Rogue, Synthetik, and more - all according to their official game descriptions within Steam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.165.173 ( talk) 23:08, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
= This Article Lacks A Clear Definition of the Term: I have heard the term "Roguelike" being used for a while and I thought Wikipedia would be a good start for finding out what the term means. Boy, was I wrong. For one thing, I have been playing video games since the Magnavox Odyssey (circa 1971) and I have never heard of any of the games in this article other than maybe Moria. Secondly, all I can gather from this somewhat lengthy article is that a Roguelike is a fantasy RPG that is turn-based and utilizes permadeath. In that case, there's a whole hell of a lot of games that fit that description that are not mentioned. 2600:1700:5DD0:60A0:C5D9:27C0:433D:2B43 ( talk) 15:56, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
I was reverted: [3] by @ TheSLEEVEmonkey:. With all due respect, there is nothing "modern" [4] in isometric graphics. Zaxxon from 1982 uses isometric graphics (in real-time). Using "modern" here is disparaging. In the roguelike community one distinguishes between tile graphics (which can be isometric) and the character/ascii/terminal interface. Most players/users use the character/ascii/terminal interface (to the point that tile graphics are often an add-on) - not because of tradition, but simply since the character/ascii graphics are better at conveying what exactly is on the map much-much quicker. The tile graphics are eye candy, but players of roguelikes aren't interested in eye candy - it isn't the point of the game (and tile graphics usually "suck" compared to commercial graphic games that are geared to graphics). The character/terminal graphics are often more "modern" than the tile graphics on particular games, since the tile graphics are developed less often and sometimes fall behind (e.g. lacking new monsters). In short, "modern" here is wrong. Isometric tile graphics existed in Zaxxon in 1982. -- Duke of Chaos ( talk) 16:45, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
The article is too repetitive. It's obsessive about permadeath (14 mentions, two of which are in the opener). Is there some way to make it more elegant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.194.65 ( talk) 09:48, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
But this article is filled with bad faith. It is not my fault but a fault on who writes it.
16:21, 16 February 2020 (UTC) 200.74.122.118 ( talk)
This article takes a very narrow view of Rogue-likes, ignoring Eastern titles that helped grow and expand the genre. In particular the Mystery Dungeon and Shiren series of games; Z.H.P. and The Guided Fate Paradox. These titles (Mystery Dungeon and Shiren in particular) were inspired by the original Rogue and introduced the genre to Japan. Daigoji ( talk) 16:41, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
"Dead Cells, a roguelike incorporated with Metroidvania-style of platform games;[102] Slay the Spire, bringing roguelike progression to a deck building game;[103] Crypt of the Necrodancer which uses a rhythm game-style approach in a roguelike dungeon;[104] and Enter the Gungeon which establishes roguelike progression in a shoot 'em up.[105] Hades, a roguelike action role-playing game, was built to strongly incorporate elements of non-linear narrative into the game, giving the reason for the player to continually delve into replaying the game, and helped to draw in players to the roguelike genre that otherwise had been put off by its high difficulty level before.[106][107]"
With the exception of Crypt and Hades, these games mentioned call themselves a roguelite or another genre borrowing roguelike elements on their store page. They do not refer to themselves as a roguelike which is being inferred by the above section. Examples:
And as a point of order, Hades is falsely advertised as a roguelike on their store page, it doesn't have permadeath and is full of meta progression. The whole game revolves around keeping things between runs. Even IGN calls it a rogue-lite: https://www.ign.com/articles/hades-review
This section is named "Growth of the rogue-lite" - can we please keep our roguelike vs roguelite language clean and consistent so as not to be misleading? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.203.96.9 ( talk) 16:34, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
Vampire Survivor has none of the traits of roguelikes mentioned in the opening paragraph of the article, it's just an arcade-style game with meta-progression. The article given as a source stating games like it constitute a subgenre of roguelikes only says it has roguelike elements and does not say it is a roguelike game, nor does it claim that there is an entire subgenre of roguelikes with these elements. Given that the game only game out two years ago, I find it extremely unlikely that it has already spawned a distinct genre. Since the claim is not sound and misleads people as to the nature of roguelikes, I believe that claim should be removed. 128.187.116.4 ( talk) 01:15, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Reference 18, The Berlin Interpretation, is used about a dozen times in the article. However, the link does not work. 178.235.184.97 ( talk) 17:55, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
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Can more information about this group be provided? I note that it has met in different cities over the last four or five years but I can't find very detailed information about its history/background, event content, attendance, etc. It would be useful to know who organizes and hosts it, and if it has a public webpage or community forum. If this is an authentic and authoritative body, it probably needs a Wikipedia page as well. 50.54.225.39 ( talk) 00:32, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
"Spelunky (2008) by Derek Yu, The Binding of Isaac (2011) by Edmund McMillian, Dungeons of Dredmor (2011) by Gaslamp Games, and FTL: Faster Than Light (2012) by Subset Games were all..." - why does the article specify the developers of these games? That hardly seems important, unless the developers themselves are now really big in making roguelike games. Should I remove the "by..." parts? Maplestrip ( talk) 09:43, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
I added a redundant-tag to the Gameplay and design-section, which was removed with the following comment: "honestly ,I'm not seeing what is repetative about this. While there might be common elements of the Early RGs and Berlin section, the latter is a formalized definition and by necessity will repeat things" Let's look at what is going on:
Early Roguelikes: "Levels are procedurally generated each time a new game is started"; Berlin Interpretation: "Roguelike games randomly generate dungeon levels,"
Early Roguelikes: "and special magical items like potions or wands are named by random descriptor ("a bubbly potion", for example) until the item is identified, with the descriptors being shuffled each game"; Berlin Interpretation: "The identity of magical items varies across games. Newly discovered objects only offer a vague physical description that is randomized between games, with purposes and capabilities left unstated. For example, a "bubbly" potion might heal wounds one game, then poison the player character in the next."
Early Roguelikes: "Gameplay is turn-based, with the player moving the character one tile or performing one action, with all the other monsters then taking their turns"; Berlin Interpretation: "The combat system is turn-based instead of real-time."
Early Roguelikes: Not mentioned; Berlin Interpretation: "Most are single-player games."
Early Roguelikes: "Another core feature is the concept of 'permadeath'" (+ stuff about saving); Berlin Interpretation: "Roguelikes traditionally implement permadeath." (+ stuff about saving)
I understand why it is done like this, but the article is literally repeating itself. There seems to be barely any difference between the Early Roguelikes section and The Berlin Interpretation section other than how they are phrased and referenced. This might make sense from a referencing point-of-view, but a reader will only really see the same information being repeated. I added a tag rather than try to fix it because I don't know how to fix this. Thoughts? Maplestrip ( talk) 18:37, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Can someone please add in references to Omega. I played it and really enjoyed it. It is like Larn / Moria in that you have dungeons, but you also get to travel around on the surface. When you're on your horse in the wilderness your food goes really fast - so you can die easily. It also had gods that you had to align yourself with (I don't think Nethack has this).
Here are some websites that refer to it: http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Omega http://www.roguetemple.com/2008/02/13/omega-for-windows-updated/ (also http://www.prankster.com/winomega/ and http://www.alcyone.com/max/projects/omega/ )
How important was it in the evolution of Roguelike Games? The first two links indicate that it influenced ADOM. It was released in the late 1980s. Lehasa ( talk) 15:36, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
We need a section to show people that Nethack and Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup are excellent games that are still very popular today. Are there others which many people still play? Lehasa ( talk) 15:40, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
I copied the lead section of this article into Role-playing_video_game#Roguelikes. The problem is that I don't know which references back up the content in the lead, since it is missing inline references. Could someone look it over and add the necessary citations? SharkD Talk 19:10, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Indrian ( talk · contribs) 17:21, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Always nice to see a key slice of video game history come up in GA. It would be my pleasure to give this a go. Indrian ( talk) 17:21, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Okay, here we go. This is a great article, so I just have a few language tweaks and the like. Detailed comments below. I am going to have to do this in a couple of chunks. I will let you know at the end of the review when I am finished. Indrian ( talk) 17:49, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
DoneThis section is entirely unsourced. This is GA, not FA, so I don't feel that every last statement needs to be attributed, but an entire section without a source is problematic.
And that's it. I made a lot of grammar tweaks in addition to the comments above. Content-wise, the article is fantastic, but structurally it may need some work. Nothing that cannot be fixed in relatively short order, however, so I will place this article
On hold pending improvements.
Indrian (
talk)
21:21, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
The article doesn't mention any party-based roguelikes, which are an important departure from the standard development characteristics, IMO. Examples include GearHead, S.C.O.U.R.G.E. and Mysterious Castle. SharkD Talk 20:52, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Like in theme, Roguelike games mainly at the beginning was characterized by random localisations and incalculable actions which made that type of game very difficult, in past, commonly called as arcade game. Weak graphics in the beginning of computer technology caused that games weak graphics ability. Because of technology there was no possibility to save progress of game, at the beginning when character died that was his permanent dead. Is today's permadeath mode introduced in today's game the same , and we can say that games from 80 introduced permadeath. I think this is not correct theory. In that way we can notify that first cosmology introduced Indians.-- Darek555 ( talk) 18:24, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
In this section please make simple clear reply, in accordance wikipedia as professional scientific place.
These are all answered but to be specific:
I think it shows lack of clarity and creativity to call any games "Something-like". We don't call Fantasy RPG "Dragon Age Like" or SciFi RPG "Mass Effect Like" or any Fantasy Movie / Novel as "Tolkien-Like". No Single author, or game or creation is a genre of its own.
So Rogue-Like should fall either to "platformer" or "casual games" if it does not have anything unique but lack of save feature ("perma death is not a requirement")
MMORPG now should be called WOW-Like
FPS now should be called Doom-Like
RTS now should be called C&C-Like
jRPG now should be called Final-Fantasy-Like
Platformers now should be called Mario-Bros-Like
Sandbox Games now should be called GTA-Like
~~William 15 Sep 2016
The reason why no one can come up with alternative name for Roguelike is because it is lacking a clearly defined feature; which should lead to the actual question as to whether the so called genre actually exist. e.g. the word "Bae" in cultural teen talk can mean anything from "baby" to "good" to "Shit", i.e. the word can mean anything because it does not really exist. Roguelike is an imaginary word that can describe anything the marketer want it to describe, and I don't think Wikipedia should be ground for imaginary marketing word as it create justification for its existence. People assume it is a legitimate word because it is included in Encyclopedia Britannica / Wikipedia
While it is a justifiable argument that Wikipedia does not "name things", if Gaming taxonomy is to be taken seriously; the quality of Wikipedia article standards and its integrity is at stake here, else it would be just another "Urban dictionary online".
~~ William 12 Oct 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.66.144.38 ( talk • contribs)
Shouldn't there be such a separate section? Especially before the genre's resurgence in indie games, there was a small, devoted and almost cult-like community to these games. Example, see what I found from a five-minute search: Gamasutra: "overlap between player and developer" especially Josh Ge's quotations. One current given ref "Where I'm @: A Brief Look At The Resurgence of Roguelikes" says stuff like " For all the supposed elitism of roguelikes, I've never encountered communities which are more welcoming, sharing and friendly..." and goes on further. There's must be more refs too. Ugog Nizdast ( talk) 14:38, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Should we create a Category:Roguelike-like video games category? What games should go in it? SharkD Talk 21:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
In this article Jaakko Tapani Peltonen of NetHack: Falcon's Eye talks about some of the positive traits and disadvantages of roguelikes when compared with other CRPG genres. It is his opinion of course. It might be useful for the article though. SharkD Talk 23:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
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As time goes, roguelike-likes are becoming far more common, and the lack of a separate page and categories is resulting in a lot of miscategorization and misinformation. As of right now, Roguelite redirects to this page, although I've made it at least redirect to the roguelike-likes subsection.
-- Asmageddon ( talk) 20:27, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
I'd personally say as the genres diversify from one another it will eventually be needed for posterity sake of the roguelike genre. We already have Risk of Rain and Risk of Rain 2(henceforth shortened to RoR and RoR2) being quantified as "roguelikes" when they literally share about as much in common with the roguelike genre than tetris. Neither RoR or RoR2 have procedural generation(henceforth referred to as proc-gen) of levels, neither have the turnbased, nor tactical components, neither have any real elements that make roguelikes roguelikes save for permadeath. The snes tetris also used a randomization algorithm for its pieces so one could make the argument that its "technically" proc-gen. Tetris likewise eschews the tactical components, the RPG elements etc. Snes version Tetris is both permadeath and proc-gen whereas RoR and RoR2 use slight and incremental variation of the same level/area. So then the Snes version of Tetris is a "roguelike" if we allow the dilution of the genre that RoR and RoR2 and other games of similar vein create.
As more and more roguelites diversify from the origin of the genre of roguelike in increasing ways and increasingly different ways we will see either one of two things, the collapse of the genre into a meaningless term tossed around with complete disregard, or we will see a split between the two genres. I'd rather the split because at least then the genre has purpose. 47.72.113.98 ( talk) 02:21, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
I already made a couple minor edits adding this word in but the whole article might need to be reworded for better comprehension. Unless "run" is more of a modern, roguelite thing and people don't call Rogue games "runs". The sentence "The identity of magical items, including magically enchanted items, varies across games." just sounds wrong since the meaning can be interpreted two different ways. Give me your thoughts. Ben R4m-Z ( talk) 17:10, 7 October 2018
I looked through the references, and I couldn't find a single one that used the term roguelike-like. Even the interview with Digital Eel, the only developers who are referenced to have used it, indicates that they dropped the extra "-like" early on and believe that roguelike is the proper umbrella term. Everyone from fans to industry to the press only uses the terms roguelike and roguelite, so the constant use of this term in "Growth of the roguelike-like" smells very WP:NEO.
Based on this article, it appears to now be a joke term.
Perhaps "Evolution of the Roguelike" would be a better section header, and the use of "traditional roguelike" when necessary to refer to the strict "Berlin interpretation" games. -- SilverbackNet talk 20:59, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
To the IP editor that keeps adding this: I am well aware that a minority of die-hard, Berlin Interpretation-roguelike players take issue with the use of "roguelike" to describe the newer games ala Spleunky. Unfortunately, we don't have any reliable sources that make this case, and we are required to have those. We cannot just make claims without such sources (that's original research), and its also a minority viewpoint, and so forcing that is against the neutral POV policy.
If you continue to try to add it without showing sources, you will likely be blocked. -- Masem ( t) 13:24, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
To co-opt something is to assign usage to that unlike the original. The usage of the word co-opting is correct in context. The same way that it would be correct in context if every pop music band were to suddenly call themselves metal they could easily co-opt the term "metal" in reference to musical genres. Would this be accurate to the music genre? No. Would this be accurate to history? No. Would this be accurate to what the genre is at its core? No. What you and others propose for the definition of roguelike being synonymous with roguelite is nothing more than argumentum ad populum. /info/en/?search=Argumentum_ad_populum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.72.113.98 ( talk) 00:05, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
The sources you're asking for are the simple fact that roguelites are quite frankly unlike the genre defining games, as the article states. The sources you ask for are quite frankly within wikipedia itself in the articles present state and in its edit history. To call such games roguelikes when they are roguelites is inherently an act of co-opting in the same vein that calling pop music "metal" would be an act of co-opting. It is inherently an act of co-opting in the same vein that usage of the pentagram by those of Satanists, Laveyan or otherwise is a co-opting of the symbol from paganism and potentially other earlier religions/folklore.
To say that this is not an act of co-opting is to eschew both the definition of the word "co-opting"("to divert to or use in a role different from the usual or original one") as well as to ignore the original definition of the term "roguelike." If one were to say it were an "intentional co-opting," well now then they've got to prove intent, and that is a whole separate kettle of fish. 47.72.113.98 ( talk) 01:12, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Also try again without the argumentum ad populum 47.72.113.98 ( talk) 01:33, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Most of these "reliable sources" also go against all the resources that cite the original definition of roguelike. This is blatant evidence of co-opting.
Lastly most of these "reliable sources" use the argumentum ad populum based on the idea that Spelunky is a roguelike when its not even an RPG so it aught to be disqualified by not fitting into the first category let alone its subcategory. It'd be akin to calling frogs a subspecies of waterfowl because "both frogs and ducks have webbed feet" 47.72.113.98 ( talk) 03:57, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Thats the thing though, it is co-opting as it is taking a term specifically used and made for the usage to define a genre of game, then twisting said term to be wholly unlike its source. That is the literal definition of co-opting within the context by which its used. To say it is co-opting with intent is arguable. To say that it is or isnt co-opting is not arguable. It is an act of co-opting by the very definition of the word "co-opt" regardless of intent. To say otherwise is to ignore the very definition of the word "co-opt" 47.72.113.98 ( talk) 04:50, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
121.75.204.98 ( talk) 05:59, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Nowhere in the contextually accurate definitions of "co-opt" did it say intent mattered. Intent does not mattter as to whether or not a thing is co-opted. Using a traditionally tied Hijab as a fashion piece when one is outside of the Muslim faith is an act of co-opting regardless or intent. The act of calling a california roll "sushi" is inherently a co-opting of the term regardless of intent.(hate to bring in godwins law, so forgive me here but) The co-opting of the Swastika as a piece symbol and redefining as the Nazi flag is an act of co-opting regardless of intent. The change from roguelike to roguelite is co-opting regardless of intent. There's also the fact that most traditional roguelikes had small and independent teams working on them so the part that cites roguelites have "smaller and independent teams" is erroneous as roguelikes have the same qualifier. Lastly stating that roguelites are roguelikes with the line the "successes of these modern roguelikes" is erroneous. We also have modern roguelikes that are actual roguelikes being developed, both in and out of the commercial market. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 17:50, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Your opinion does not reflect history. The roguelike-like term was coined(and then shifted to roguelite as of 2013) specifically to separate games that do not fit within the genre. saying that they are the same genre is an inherent co-opting while also erasing a term used to define a genre. 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 18:12, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
The industry is wrong, period. The industry only cares about what sells, as such it has co-opted the term roguelike to fit roguelites as the populous at large does not distinguish between the two. To say otherwise is just argumentum ad populum. Hell the article itself states roguelikes are RPG games, most roguelites eschew so many RPG elements that they dont even fit into the RPG genre, let alone the roguelike genre. That is a redefinition of terminology that is blatant, albeit mostly unwitting co-opting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 18:20, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
I do not "feel they are wrong," they are wrong period. They go against an established definition of an established game genre and lump games wholly unlike anything within the genre and claim they belong. That act is inherently the definition of the word co-opting within such a discussion context. One can argue intent, but the thing is that co-opting does not by definition require intent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 18:59, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Roguelikes are inherently RPG games correct? This is the definition that this very article states, it is the definition that all traditional roguelikes are made under and within. The trouble with saying that the people stating "roguelite is equivelant to roguelike" isnt an act of co-opting is that its saying that games that arent RPGs such as spelunky, Rogue Legacy etc fit under the same genre. You cannot state that games eschewing a genres core elements(in this context one of which being that roguelikes are inherently RPG games) fall within said genre without it being an inherent act of co-opting along the same lines as the hijab for fashion, along the same lines as the california roll as to traditional sushi, along the same lines as the swastikas original meaning an the nazi co-opting(again forgive the godwins law). 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 19:16, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Dear anonymous IP user - you are turning this matter into an edit war. Respectfully, please could you desist from repeating this edit while it is still not resolved in the talk page, and at least until such a time as you are able to provide valid sources to support your claim that the use of these terms is "wrong"? Wikipedia is not a place where we can decide ourselves what is the "right" or "wrong" use of a term, because that is original research. You have given your reasons as to why you think it is wrong. I disagree and have many reasons why I do not think it is wrong. However none of that is relevant, because the article has a multitude of relaible sources which DO apply this term to the games in question and, as of yet, no sources which suggest said usage is incorrect. If you can find a reliable source which supports your claim or perhaps some kind of definitive definition of "roguelike" which objectively excludes these games, then you could add a new section which disucsses this. Otherwise, I would request again, that you respect the Wikipedia conribution process and refrain from repeating the same edits seemingly in the hope that no one will notice. TheSLEEVEmonkey ( talk) 14:06, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Your sources are nothing more than argumentum ad populum. The original meaning is wildly different to the meaning wrongfully applied to the term roguelike. Ergo this is a co-opting of the term. 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 06:19, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Your continued reference to "ad populum" is reductive and non sensical in the context of this discussion. You claim that the sources are "nothing more than argumentum ad populum" however your only source is your own opinion. There is no "official" definition of what a roguelike game is, therefore, we must go by the common definition of that game, as per reliable sources. You frequently refer to "the original meaning" of rougelike - however you have no source which shows us what the original meaning is. There is no such source, because the term is informal and vague. This was the very point of the Berlin interpretation (to try to formalize the definition) and even they did not preclude these newer games from being roguelike.
So to summarize: A) There is no official or original meaning of Roguelike, B) we therefore must use what is the common definition of the term C) we find this common definition by using reliable sources - this is not the same as an ad populum argument and D) the one major attempt at creating an official definition did not preclude these more modern games from being considered roguelike. Please could you stop making edits until you at the very least provide a source which shows what the "original meaning" of the term is? TheSLEEVEmonkey ( talk) 10:05, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
There is an original definition though, games that are "like rogue" hence the genres title! Spelunky is no more like rogue than it is dance dance revolution. Is it now a rhythm game? That definition widened to include games that are like nethack, like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, like ADoM etc as genre defining games, however Spelunky, Rogue Legacy etc are not "like rogue" in any moderate capacity let alone a large one. They are no more Roguelikes than they are first person shooters. Furthermore there is a wide enough history on roguelites to be on their own page AWAY from the definition of roguelike, as they very well aught to be. They are not "like Rogue" nor like ADoM, nor Nethack, nor ToME nor any of the genres founding titles by any large capacity. To call any of the above titles "Roguelikes" is an inherent(though largely unwitting) co-opting of the term away from its very source. 121.75.204.98 ( talk) 20:06, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Howdy, Spelunky, Rogue Legacy and Weird Worlds (discussed above as allegedly not roguelike games) are all listed on Steam as roguelike. What source is there supporting the claim that they are not roguelike? The anonymous editor above does not provide one, so it seems to me like it's just one person's opinion; not what Wikipedia is about. EvolutionaryTheorist ( talk) 14:32, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
I do not provide a source as the reference is already listed by wikipedia in the article that you lot so crudely want to lump roguelites into. The USENET newsgroups established Rogue as the common denominator for roguelikes(hence the name "ROGUElikes"). Rogue is a tactical/strategic(some will say strategic, others tactical either way that argument is splitting hairs) tile based RPG with alphabet symbols representing tiles(technically not ASCII, as ASCII refers to making a whole image from letters/numbers), permadeath and procedural generated areas. Nethack was exactly that, as was Lynleys Dungeon Crawl(now DCSS), as was ToME, as was ADoM, these then became seen as equal genre definers as to the roguelike genre. This is fact, documented in this article and several of the references it draws from. Nethack then shifted to a full graphical-tile based system without losing its gameplay elements, as did DCSS and the other genre defining games(as to "when" I'd have to reference the specifics for DCSS, Nethack etc which isnt whats being discussed). As such we have a baseline of Rogue and games that fit within the genre with references already listed. Games that play like those are roguelikes. Those that are not like rogue but borrow elements of the genre are rogueLITES. A FPS with procedural generation, metaprogression and a lack of RPG elements(Immortal redneck) is not like rogue(a tactical, tilebased RPG, based on procedural generation and permadeath), nor is it like any of the genres defining games either. This isnt opinion, this is simple observation. A sidescrolling platformer that nixes all RPG elements and keeps naught but the procedural generation elements(spelunky) again is not like Rogue, nor like any of the genres defining games. A bullet hell that draws more from Legend of Zelda(Binding of Isaac) is not like Rogue, nor the genres defining games. Calling these games Roguelikes is inherently to draw the phrase "roguelike" away from ROGUE and the genres defining titles. Its no more valid than saying your fridge is a school-desk because they both have hinged draws. Lastly it is a valid co-opting simply because that's the VERY DEFINITION of co-opt in such a very context.
121.75.204.98 ( talk) 15:04, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
TBH we shouldnt use steam listings at all. According to steam Euro Truck simulator is a "racing game". According to steam portal is a "FPS". According to steam at one point "What Remains of Edith Finch" was also an "FPS"
This article is less valid than the reddit roguelike forum because of the addition of the roguelite section. Quite frankly for posterity and for accuracy that should be its own page. Roguelites are unlike rogue, they are unlike nethack, ADoM, lynleys dungeon crawl and every other actual roguelike. I was really rooting for the anon dude. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jofadda ( talk • contribs) 20:01, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
This discussion has already been resolved pending new reliable sources which support the claims made by the anon IP contributor. If you have such sources please provide them. Failing that, how about we try not to pollute the talk page too much? Can I recommend also that you review WP:SOCK rules and in particular WP:MEAT. As others have stated, Wikipedia can only summarize what the majority sources state. If anyone has issues with that, they should brigade the sources, not Wikipedia. Falling foul of WP:SOCK rules can lead to accounts and IP addresses being blocked from Wikipedia. TheSLEEVEmonkey ( talk) 11:28, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Is there a reason this article is still using this term? It is not a term used in any of the major game distribution platforms, news articles, or any relevant/recent sources I can find relating to roguelikes (I believe Nuclear Throne is the only game I can find that even references the term). Can we move to have this term removed (or at the very least mentioned far less) and replaced with the more modern term "Roguelite", which is much more prevalent? In particular "Roguelite" is widely used on Steam, within news articles (both minor and major), in reddit/forum communities, and perhaps most importantly referenced by many developers themselves as a descriptor for their games. Some examples of games directly citing the term include Dead Cells, Noita, Streets of Rogue, Synthetik, and more - all according to their official game descriptions within Steam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.165.173 ( talk) 23:08, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
= This Article Lacks A Clear Definition of the Term: I have heard the term "Roguelike" being used for a while and I thought Wikipedia would be a good start for finding out what the term means. Boy, was I wrong. For one thing, I have been playing video games since the Magnavox Odyssey (circa 1971) and I have never heard of any of the games in this article other than maybe Moria. Secondly, all I can gather from this somewhat lengthy article is that a Roguelike is a fantasy RPG that is turn-based and utilizes permadeath. In that case, there's a whole hell of a lot of games that fit that description that are not mentioned. 2600:1700:5DD0:60A0:C5D9:27C0:433D:2B43 ( talk) 15:56, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
I was reverted: [3] by @ TheSLEEVEmonkey:. With all due respect, there is nothing "modern" [4] in isometric graphics. Zaxxon from 1982 uses isometric graphics (in real-time). Using "modern" here is disparaging. In the roguelike community one distinguishes between tile graphics (which can be isometric) and the character/ascii/terminal interface. Most players/users use the character/ascii/terminal interface (to the point that tile graphics are often an add-on) - not because of tradition, but simply since the character/ascii graphics are better at conveying what exactly is on the map much-much quicker. The tile graphics are eye candy, but players of roguelikes aren't interested in eye candy - it isn't the point of the game (and tile graphics usually "suck" compared to commercial graphic games that are geared to graphics). The character/terminal graphics are often more "modern" than the tile graphics on particular games, since the tile graphics are developed less often and sometimes fall behind (e.g. lacking new monsters). In short, "modern" here is wrong. Isometric tile graphics existed in Zaxxon in 1982. -- Duke of Chaos ( talk) 16:45, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
The article is too repetitive. It's obsessive about permadeath (14 mentions, two of which are in the opener). Is there some way to make it more elegant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.194.65 ( talk) 09:48, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
But this article is filled with bad faith. It is not my fault but a fault on who writes it.
16:21, 16 February 2020 (UTC) 200.74.122.118 ( talk)
This article takes a very narrow view of Rogue-likes, ignoring Eastern titles that helped grow and expand the genre. In particular the Mystery Dungeon and Shiren series of games; Z.H.P. and The Guided Fate Paradox. These titles (Mystery Dungeon and Shiren in particular) were inspired by the original Rogue and introduced the genre to Japan. Daigoji ( talk) 16:41, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
"Dead Cells, a roguelike incorporated with Metroidvania-style of platform games;[102] Slay the Spire, bringing roguelike progression to a deck building game;[103] Crypt of the Necrodancer which uses a rhythm game-style approach in a roguelike dungeon;[104] and Enter the Gungeon which establishes roguelike progression in a shoot 'em up.[105] Hades, a roguelike action role-playing game, was built to strongly incorporate elements of non-linear narrative into the game, giving the reason for the player to continually delve into replaying the game, and helped to draw in players to the roguelike genre that otherwise had been put off by its high difficulty level before.[106][107]"
With the exception of Crypt and Hades, these games mentioned call themselves a roguelite or another genre borrowing roguelike elements on their store page. They do not refer to themselves as a roguelike which is being inferred by the above section. Examples:
And as a point of order, Hades is falsely advertised as a roguelike on their store page, it doesn't have permadeath and is full of meta progression. The whole game revolves around keeping things between runs. Even IGN calls it a rogue-lite: https://www.ign.com/articles/hades-review
This section is named "Growth of the rogue-lite" - can we please keep our roguelike vs roguelite language clean and consistent so as not to be misleading? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.203.96.9 ( talk) 16:34, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
Vampire Survivor has none of the traits of roguelikes mentioned in the opening paragraph of the article, it's just an arcade-style game with meta-progression. The article given as a source stating games like it constitute a subgenre of roguelikes only says it has roguelike elements and does not say it is a roguelike game, nor does it claim that there is an entire subgenre of roguelikes with these elements. Given that the game only game out two years ago, I find it extremely unlikely that it has already spawned a distinct genre. Since the claim is not sound and misleads people as to the nature of roguelikes, I believe that claim should be removed. 128.187.116.4 ( talk) 01:15, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Reference 18, The Berlin Interpretation, is used about a dozen times in the article. However, the link does not work. 178.235.184.97 ( talk) 17:55, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
The redirect
Roguevania has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 24 § Roguevania until a consensus is reached.
Utopes (
talk /
cont)
20:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)