![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 2 February 2022. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Roberto González Echevarría has requested this page be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.173.30 ( talk) 20:50, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
Highlighting this on the talk page, since it's a living person bio:
The Yale Daily News reported in March 2015 that Roberto González Echevarría has been accused of harassment within the Spanish and Portuguese department.
http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2015/03/25/spanish-department-under-review-following-anonymous-allegations/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dharmablues ( talk • contribs) 03:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
Highlighting this proposed change, which should be added in light of the fact that there has been widespread coverage of the allegations and the court case in the news section of the Yale Daily News, which is produced by Yale University and is the most reliable source of news about Yale. Mention of the court case has also been included in the Yale Alumni Magazine, which is produced by the Yale University Alumni Office -- and in external news sources such as the International Business Times. [1]
The proposed edit states only that there are allegations of sexual harassment, which is an indisputable and well-referenced fact. Court documents are a permissible source when they are offered in support of a verifiable source. The Yale Daily News is the oldest college daily newspaper in the country, and is advised by attorneys at the Yale General Counsel's Office; like any reputable paper, it can be sued for publishing false information. The information came from the news section of the paper, and the issue has been covered in at least 6 different YDN articles in the past 4 years.
For an analogous debate, which resulted in consensus regarding the allegations involving another Yale faculty member, see the talk page for the entry on Thomas Pogge.
Concerned33 ( talk) 00:28, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
References
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I just closed the AfD that I completed, which turned out to have been requested by a Yale IP and likely connected to the subject of the article. Indeed, the top of the talk page reads, Roberto González Echevarría has requested this page be removed
.
There are open issues—some of which have been debated before today—that arise from the AfD, since the main concern of the discussion is not a notability question but rather his status as a public figure and the resultant inclusion/weight of information on the sexual harassment cases. The 2019 discussion above is also relevant to this debate.
To facilitate that discussion, I am pinging the users that participated in the AfD: @ Russ Woodroofe, Sdkb, Morbidthoughts, Kingoflettuce, Xxanthippe, and Stuartyeates: Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:31, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
It's tricky. WP:BLPCRIME states that for non-public figures (which would include a professor)
editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured.Weighing against that is the fact that the allegations appear strongly substantiated, that the Yale Daily News is one of the most respected student newspapers in the U.S. and therefore very much a reliable source for Yale-related topics per WP:RSSM, and that it appears likely someone with a conflict of interest is trying to tamper with the article (which would nullify WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE considerations for me). I'd be alright seeing this go either way, but at the very least, we can include in the article the aspects that aren't strictly legal. I've done that here.
Both WP:PUBLICFIGURE and WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE require multiple high quality sources. Sourcing only to Yale's student paper is not adequate to establish this, especially when considering that he's received mundane coverage by much more mainstream sources. I object to this, as per RSSM, the Yale Daily News is absolutely reliable, there are other sources beyond them that have covered the allegations, and BLP has a lower standard for negative information that is not of a criminal nature. We should not be omitting this sort of defining information about him just because it is unflattering. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 05:05, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Should this biography of a living person contain information on sexual harassment allegations and/or workplace conduct cases, as mentioned in the following articles from the Yale Daily News: [2], [3], [4]? Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 21:29, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
Roberto González Echevarría is a professor of Spanish literature at Yale University.
The inclusion of content related to these current cases has been a subject of debate and/or reversions in 2019, 2020, and now 2022. Using an IP address geolocated to Yale, González Echevarría requested deletion of this page in February 2022. The IP then removed the section containing the allegations ( Special:Diff/1069345163) and started a malformed AfD that I completed and tagged ( Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roberto González Echevarría).
At Articles for deletion, editors noted that the subject clearly passes our notability guideline for professors and likely passes the general notability guideline, such that WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE was not likely applicable to this article. I closed the AfD after 12 hours because it had become clear that the issues that were raised were not in the purview of AfD. However, there have been a range of opinions expressed on the inclusion or not of the materials mentioned in the RfC statement, between such policies as WP:BLPCRIME and WP:PUBLICFIGURE. This discussion continued after the AfD into the section above this one. (In the meantime, sourcing of the other parts of the page has been improved.)
In order to gather the widest possible range of opinions, I am bringing this to RfC so that editors can weigh the BLP policies and determine if the material about sexual harassment allegations—which resulted in a lawsuit against Yale, for which a trial was approved in April 2020 ( [6]) but which was apparently dismissed by settlement last year—should remain on this page.
Revised 19:09, 7 February 2022 (UTC) to incorporate new information and clarify wording.
Since the sources may be a little hard to keep track of, I will attempt to list the main ones here. Russ Woodroofe ( talk) 20:03, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
Extended content
|
---|
A few sources not previously mentioned (and fairly brief):
|
The controversy surrounding González Echevarría ... first emerged in March 2015...) and reports on the difficulty of getting more solid answers (e.g.,
The source said the administration’s lack of transparency in addressing issues in the department is ironic...). This earlier item [35] contains further details, and this more recent item [36] is also specific in its statements. (By contrast, I don't think this mention is suitable for use before the legal process concludes.) I find Sdkb's point about the career importance of running a department at Yale persuasive. I don't think the available sourcing gives us much to say, and accordingly, I doubt that it presently belongs in the introduction, but "being criticized for running a department badly" is the kind of thing that does belong in a "Career" section. XOR'easter ( talk) 19:43, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Ignoring the above discussion related to recent events, I'd like to make an addition about an earlier incident. Sticking with WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE's 'exercise restraint and include only material relevant to the person's notability,' I'd like to add:
What do people think? Stuartyeates ( talk) 09:25, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
References
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 2 February 2022. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
Roberto González Echevarría has requested this page be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.173.30 ( talk) 20:50, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
Highlighting this on the talk page, since it's a living person bio:
The Yale Daily News reported in March 2015 that Roberto González Echevarría has been accused of harassment within the Spanish and Portuguese department.
http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2015/03/25/spanish-department-under-review-following-anonymous-allegations/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dharmablues ( talk • contribs) 03:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
Highlighting this proposed change, which should be added in light of the fact that there has been widespread coverage of the allegations and the court case in the news section of the Yale Daily News, which is produced by Yale University and is the most reliable source of news about Yale. Mention of the court case has also been included in the Yale Alumni Magazine, which is produced by the Yale University Alumni Office -- and in external news sources such as the International Business Times. [1]
The proposed edit states only that there are allegations of sexual harassment, which is an indisputable and well-referenced fact. Court documents are a permissible source when they are offered in support of a verifiable source. The Yale Daily News is the oldest college daily newspaper in the country, and is advised by attorneys at the Yale General Counsel's Office; like any reputable paper, it can be sued for publishing false information. The information came from the news section of the paper, and the issue has been covered in at least 6 different YDN articles in the past 4 years.
For an analogous debate, which resulted in consensus regarding the allegations involving another Yale faculty member, see the talk page for the entry on Thomas Pogge.
Concerned33 ( talk) 00:28, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: |last3=
has numeric name (
help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link)
{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: |last3=
has numeric name (
help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link)
I just closed the AfD that I completed, which turned out to have been requested by a Yale IP and likely connected to the subject of the article. Indeed, the top of the talk page reads, Roberto González Echevarría has requested this page be removed
.
There are open issues—some of which have been debated before today—that arise from the AfD, since the main concern of the discussion is not a notability question but rather his status as a public figure and the resultant inclusion/weight of information on the sexual harassment cases. The 2019 discussion above is also relevant to this debate.
To facilitate that discussion, I am pinging the users that participated in the AfD: @ Russ Woodroofe, Sdkb, Morbidthoughts, Kingoflettuce, Xxanthippe, and Stuartyeates: Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:31, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
It's tricky. WP:BLPCRIME states that for non-public figures (which would include a professor)
editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured.Weighing against that is the fact that the allegations appear strongly substantiated, that the Yale Daily News is one of the most respected student newspapers in the U.S. and therefore very much a reliable source for Yale-related topics per WP:RSSM, and that it appears likely someone with a conflict of interest is trying to tamper with the article (which would nullify WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE considerations for me). I'd be alright seeing this go either way, but at the very least, we can include in the article the aspects that aren't strictly legal. I've done that here.
Both WP:PUBLICFIGURE and WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE require multiple high quality sources. Sourcing only to Yale's student paper is not adequate to establish this, especially when considering that he's received mundane coverage by much more mainstream sources. I object to this, as per RSSM, the Yale Daily News is absolutely reliable, there are other sources beyond them that have covered the allegations, and BLP has a lower standard for negative information that is not of a criminal nature. We should not be omitting this sort of defining information about him just because it is unflattering. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 05:05, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Should this biography of a living person contain information on sexual harassment allegations and/or workplace conduct cases, as mentioned in the following articles from the Yale Daily News: [2], [3], [4]? Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 21:29, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
Roberto González Echevarría is a professor of Spanish literature at Yale University.
The inclusion of content related to these current cases has been a subject of debate and/or reversions in 2019, 2020, and now 2022. Using an IP address geolocated to Yale, González Echevarría requested deletion of this page in February 2022. The IP then removed the section containing the allegations ( Special:Diff/1069345163) and started a malformed AfD that I completed and tagged ( Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roberto González Echevarría).
At Articles for deletion, editors noted that the subject clearly passes our notability guideline for professors and likely passes the general notability guideline, such that WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE was not likely applicable to this article. I closed the AfD after 12 hours because it had become clear that the issues that were raised were not in the purview of AfD. However, there have been a range of opinions expressed on the inclusion or not of the materials mentioned in the RfC statement, between such policies as WP:BLPCRIME and WP:PUBLICFIGURE. This discussion continued after the AfD into the section above this one. (In the meantime, sourcing of the other parts of the page has been improved.)
In order to gather the widest possible range of opinions, I am bringing this to RfC so that editors can weigh the BLP policies and determine if the material about sexual harassment allegations—which resulted in a lawsuit against Yale, for which a trial was approved in April 2020 ( [6]) but which was apparently dismissed by settlement last year—should remain on this page.
Revised 19:09, 7 February 2022 (UTC) to incorporate new information and clarify wording.
Since the sources may be a little hard to keep track of, I will attempt to list the main ones here. Russ Woodroofe ( talk) 20:03, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
Extended content
|
---|
A few sources not previously mentioned (and fairly brief):
|
The controversy surrounding González Echevarría ... first emerged in March 2015...) and reports on the difficulty of getting more solid answers (e.g.,
The source said the administration’s lack of transparency in addressing issues in the department is ironic...). This earlier item [35] contains further details, and this more recent item [36] is also specific in its statements. (By contrast, I don't think this mention is suitable for use before the legal process concludes.) I find Sdkb's point about the career importance of running a department at Yale persuasive. I don't think the available sourcing gives us much to say, and accordingly, I doubt that it presently belongs in the introduction, but "being criticized for running a department badly" is the kind of thing that does belong in a "Career" section. XOR'easter ( talk) 19:43, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Ignoring the above discussion related to recent events, I'd like to make an addition about an earlier incident. Sticking with WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE's 'exercise restraint and include only material relevant to the person's notability,' I'd like to add:
What do people think? Stuartyeates ( talk) 09:25, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
References