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Just including here what I wrote about the article on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard:
I've had a read through after being asked to do so on my talk page. It needs a lot of tightening up, I've copyedited the lede a bit more, but there is a lot of information in the lede still that really doesn't need to be there and should be just in the body of the article. As to the body of the article itself, it's written in an overfamiliar way at times (he's, instead of he is, for example - avoid contractions). There's a lot there that seems to be a "so what" - for example, "at the same time the Lansing Bahá'í assembly contributed some books to one of the local libraries,[91] and the community held the observance of the Birth of the Báb,[92] followed by the community observance of UN Day with the cooperation of the MSU Bahá'í club.[93]" - so? What's the relevance to this article? The article is about Richard Walter Thomas, and perhaps a lot of the content about the Bahá'í faith at MSU could be moved/repurposed to create an article called Bahá'í faith at Michigan State University or similar. By section:
Hope that helps! Fish+ Karate 09:28, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Can we discuss this? There are two points made about it. I welcome comments on the particular points…. To be clear I'm very open to tweaking but I don't agree yet on wholesale chopping approach on this. Doesn't mean I'm right - I just did this for particular reasons and I'm open to other reason being specifically addressed in this. Smkolins ( talk) 17:31, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
First in general why quote this at all. I believe the words speak of a dramatic important process according to his own words - thus significant and worth presenting (at least until some scholarly publishes some account that establishes an academic view of it being important.) One could summarize the events it is true, but I side with using his own words to establish the importance and the points of his conviction and the challenges it manifested in his life quickly. Smkolins ( talk) 17:31, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
The second is that it must be a copyright violation because it is long. I commented above and here repeat that it is my attempt to summarize 10 pages of his story published and with several ellipsis (…) in the text. It is also 39 paragraphs. So the four paragraphs are close to 10% of the whole story published - a threshold pointed at such as this school's guidance [1]. Smkolins ( talk) 17:31, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
As for summarizing the school years into one paragraph - I think the depth of information should be based on sources. If there was only a source reviewing his life in the period so be it but there are instead many newspaper mentions of him. The idea is to get a grasp of what the man was doing and saying. That's the point of a biography. It also pretty clearly continues the themes he had before and would after - involvement in black issues and race, involvement in poetry and scholarly work (award winning paper in there,) and putting words into actions with various initiatives and the relevance of Baha'i activities in his own choices and actions. I do struggle with the list kind of approach of this happened, this happened, this happened, but I'm trying to avoid OR. I'd welcome summaries people could contribute by copyediting that respects the content but I've no idea how that could be down to one paragraph. Smkolins ( talk) 18:02, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't disagree. I'd welcome someone doing copyedit to make it more readable. Its just devilishly difficult to avoid getting into OR. And we're sitting here in the context of deciding what comes out of draft to mainspace vs what is worthwhile in mainspace vs what is an A article. I realize that an article about a living person must be careful in some ways but I don't see any of those concerns relevant in if this should be the article as it stands. Improving it to be an A article is another whole thing. Smkolins ( talk) 12:19, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
The point of that section was to illustrate what is found in sources - that he didn't just do academic publications but rose up into actual practices and services. That's a pretty significant thing. Yes it also fits into the narrative of how his life proceeds but it is also a specific list of actions and resonates with other parts of his life and concerns. Originally I had the two merged - actions and writings or some such verbiage - and that was torn up (and in the process ripped up a bunch of citation usages.) So if they have to be separated I thought both deserved space. These are not just what he did some Sunday or Tuesday - these were judged by the people writing the articles to be worth mentioning. Smkolins ( talk) 12:23, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
@ JzG: Allot of progress has come along correcting style issues that some thought highly problematic, along with finishing some rough sections, and polishing content among the particular issues (above) and others responded to. Several people who've contributed to the article have had complimentary things to say. I believe the article is worth putting up now. Your thoughts? Smkolins ( talk) 17:11, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
![]() | It is requested that a photograph be
included in this article to
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The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
![]() | This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Just including here what I wrote about the article on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard:
I've had a read through after being asked to do so on my talk page. It needs a lot of tightening up, I've copyedited the lede a bit more, but there is a lot of information in the lede still that really doesn't need to be there and should be just in the body of the article. As to the body of the article itself, it's written in an overfamiliar way at times (he's, instead of he is, for example - avoid contractions). There's a lot there that seems to be a "so what" - for example, "at the same time the Lansing Bahá'í assembly contributed some books to one of the local libraries,[91] and the community held the observance of the Birth of the Báb,[92] followed by the community observance of UN Day with the cooperation of the MSU Bahá'í club.[93]" - so? What's the relevance to this article? The article is about Richard Walter Thomas, and perhaps a lot of the content about the Bahá'í faith at MSU could be moved/repurposed to create an article called Bahá'í faith at Michigan State University or similar. By section:
Hope that helps! Fish+ Karate 09:28, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Can we discuss this? There are two points made about it. I welcome comments on the particular points…. To be clear I'm very open to tweaking but I don't agree yet on wholesale chopping approach on this. Doesn't mean I'm right - I just did this for particular reasons and I'm open to other reason being specifically addressed in this. Smkolins ( talk) 17:31, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
First in general why quote this at all. I believe the words speak of a dramatic important process according to his own words - thus significant and worth presenting (at least until some scholarly publishes some account that establishes an academic view of it being important.) One could summarize the events it is true, but I side with using his own words to establish the importance and the points of his conviction and the challenges it manifested in his life quickly. Smkolins ( talk) 17:31, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
The second is that it must be a copyright violation because it is long. I commented above and here repeat that it is my attempt to summarize 10 pages of his story published and with several ellipsis (…) in the text. It is also 39 paragraphs. So the four paragraphs are close to 10% of the whole story published - a threshold pointed at such as this school's guidance [1]. Smkolins ( talk) 17:31, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
As for summarizing the school years into one paragraph - I think the depth of information should be based on sources. If there was only a source reviewing his life in the period so be it but there are instead many newspaper mentions of him. The idea is to get a grasp of what the man was doing and saying. That's the point of a biography. It also pretty clearly continues the themes he had before and would after - involvement in black issues and race, involvement in poetry and scholarly work (award winning paper in there,) and putting words into actions with various initiatives and the relevance of Baha'i activities in his own choices and actions. I do struggle with the list kind of approach of this happened, this happened, this happened, but I'm trying to avoid OR. I'd welcome summaries people could contribute by copyediting that respects the content but I've no idea how that could be down to one paragraph. Smkolins ( talk) 18:02, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't disagree. I'd welcome someone doing copyedit to make it more readable. Its just devilishly difficult to avoid getting into OR. And we're sitting here in the context of deciding what comes out of draft to mainspace vs what is worthwhile in mainspace vs what is an A article. I realize that an article about a living person must be careful in some ways but I don't see any of those concerns relevant in if this should be the article as it stands. Improving it to be an A article is another whole thing. Smkolins ( talk) 12:19, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
The point of that section was to illustrate what is found in sources - that he didn't just do academic publications but rose up into actual practices and services. That's a pretty significant thing. Yes it also fits into the narrative of how his life proceeds but it is also a specific list of actions and resonates with other parts of his life and concerns. Originally I had the two merged - actions and writings or some such verbiage - and that was torn up (and in the process ripped up a bunch of citation usages.) So if they have to be separated I thought both deserved space. These are not just what he did some Sunday or Tuesday - these were judged by the people writing the articles to be worth mentioning. Smkolins ( talk) 12:23, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
@ JzG: Allot of progress has come along correcting style issues that some thought highly problematic, along with finishing some rough sections, and polishing content among the particular issues (above) and others responded to. Several people who've contributed to the article have had complimentary things to say. I believe the article is worth putting up now. Your thoughts? Smkolins ( talk) 17:11, 19 March 2018 (UTC)