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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Lvivske, where did you get information on Chornovol??? Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 19:33, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
While the use of Twitter may be justified in this exceptional case (?) please do add the name who's tweets you're adding and try to distance yourself from the position of the author (i.e. 'government thugs' is not neutral wording). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lokalkosmopolit ( talk • contribs) 22:29, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Can someone show the source of the Trade Union burning's casualties ???Because I don't see that they were death protesters.
This content was added by User:Lokalkosmopolit "Opposition activists armed with bats and iron rods beat to death the engineer of the office Valery Konstantinovich Zakharov [1]" Who is Izvestia.kiev.ua? Is this a copy wordpress blog of the Russian Izvestia? They only have 2k likes on facebook whereas the real Izvestia (whose logo they use) has over 56,000 . Can someone confirm or deny that this "Izvestia.kiev.ua" is a reliable source or not? The content they posted, about opposition killing an engineer, was mentioned by ZERO credible press so far, making this claim very dubious.-- Львівське ( говорити) 15:28, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I apologize for this edit which I thought was vandalism at first because the page was full of these tags. I see now that the issue wasn't Pravda or just sources at random, but actually the article itself, which is a social media live-blog. This was added by Alex G, can we get a comment from him if all of the info he added was actually from this page? If so we may have to remove it and I agree with the tagging. Perhaps we can get some other eyes on this? It's a lot of content that would need to be removed, unfortunately.-- Львівське ( говорити) 04:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
Espreso tv link on Moskal is inoperational. My Google Chrome is not able to open it. If it is good link, the format should be changed; otherwise - it needs to be deleted. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 05:13, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
Particularly noted in the final paragraph of 18 February 2013 there are various references to Ukrainian terms such as titushky and siloviks which are not clear terms for use by someone unfamiliar with Ukrainian culture, could an explanation of such terms included in the article be incorporated to make for clearer reading. Tracland ( talk) 08:24, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
What makes this Musienko notable [3]? Because I once added Kravchuk's view but that was removed. Lokalkosmopolit ( talk) 17:43, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
About the recent page move to Ukraine Civil War=Per Wikipedia:Article titles Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources.. NO reliable English-language source has spoken of a Ukraine Civil War! Wikipedia is about showing what is going on, not about giving personal opinions what is going on!!!! — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:13, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I've came across numerous reports on Ukrainian atheltes withdrawing from the ongoing Winter Olympics in Sochi. Anyone who is more or less familiar, please add a few sentences about this [4] [5] -- Երևանցի talk 21:00, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I applaud all your hard work in the article but currently this article has the information "The Rada speaker (currently Volodymyr Rybak) current whereabouts are unknown". Although I find that interesting.... that sort of info belongs in a newspaper and not in an encyclopaedia. And I already found a source that stated Rybak will be found soon. Let's remove Where's Volodymyr as soon as this info is redundant/he is found. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 22:59, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
This content ("On 17 February 2014, Right Sector posted a message «In connection with the announced opposition National Headquarters on Tuesday, February 18, "peaceful offensive," all "Right Sector" units in Kiev and regions of Ukraine lead to a state of complete readiness.»") has been removed twice from the article; User:Cathry inserted it. I, personally, have no clue what it's trying to say. It also has nothing to do with the February riots, and so it's confusing why it was added as the first line of the intro to the article. -- Львівське ( говорити) 03:59, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
http://una-unso.in.ua/terminove-povidomlennya-pravogo-sektoru. It deals with 18 February riot, which was named "peaceful offensive" Cathry ( talk) 04:06, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
This section, while I think Motyl is a great mind on politics and the discussion is interesting, I don't see what Donbas separatism has to do with this article in specifics. This should be in an article on Ukrainian separatist movements or on the Donbas, not about the riots. Thoughts on removal? -- Львівське ( говорити) 03:36, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
This is not riot, this is already armed uprising.
Just a reminder here that Yulia Tymoshenko's last name is not spelled with a "i" in English reliable sources. (We seem to be off-topic anyhow....) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 22:45, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I found the Pope's response to the situation in Ukraine. I don't know the format or where exactly this would be inserted, so I thought I'd offer it here: [8]
Also, a message from the Ecumenical Patriarch, Bartholomew. http://www.patriarchate.org/documents/patriarchal-message-ukraine-2014
Pstanton ( talk) 22:10, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
The article's section about Tymoshenko may need some updating, as she's in Kiev now. [9] [10] Amazing. Sca ( talk) 22:21, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
The 'Events across Ukraine' section would benefit from some expansion, I added some information from the main Wikipedia article with a reference to BBC, I wish I had more time to expand it as I really care about it since I'm from Ukraine. Who would be willing to work on this section a little bit? :) Sofia Lucifairy ( talk) 21:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
least 82 people were killed, including 13 policemen; over 1,100 were injured
that's a "riot" or "skirmish"
saying 1,000 dead is a "protest" ?
USA history books cite "a Boston Massacre" with far less casualties. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.219.207.160 ( talk) 23:39, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
ℳ==i hate to make suggestions== since it's totally not my place.
i would think attacking one's own wealth in one's own town (public buildings taxes paid for) is not helpful if one does not have the means (if the conflict is about means and suspected holding out of).
my example is. syria has areas of towns destroyed. they cannot protest over who is in the buildings: there are no buildings and no way to rebuild them.
I think so too. Now Ukrainians have different opinions, but, I think, part of those who support these attacks have some kind of euphoria. But still it is armed coup.. Cathry ( talk) 02:40, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
It's a revolution, and it's not limited to the Maidan, or even Kiev as a whole. And "riots" is something else. Btw, A riot (/ˈraɪət/) is a form of civil disorder characterized often by what is thought of as disorganized groups lashing out in a sudden against authority, property or people. (...) Riots typically involve "vandalism and the destruction of private and/or public property." The specific property to be targeted varies depending on the riot and the inclinations of those involved. Targets can include shops, cars, restaurants, state-owned institutions, and religious buildings. The only destruction so far is directly limited to the fighting between organized and disciplined political groups, it's not like there is a mob roaming streets and plundering shops & burning cars at random (example: 2011 England riots). -- Niemti ( talk) 13:16, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
All this is political, it's not about looting and random vandalism. Riot is "a situation in which a large group of people behave in a violent and uncontrolled way". The anti-government side is highly organized, into militias (calling themselves sotnias), with advanced logistics (including field hospitals), etc. Politically, they have parties. Not a riot. An uprising. -- Niemti ( talk) 13:48, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
And what am I reading? Right now, I'm reading http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/22/ukraine-crisis-uncertainty-after-yanukovych-signs-deal-live-updates It says:
The photo illustrating it whows orderly lines of uniformed men in combat gear, the caption reads: "Anti-government protesters guard the the Ukrainian Parliament building in Kiev." That's not how a riot works. -- Niemti ( talk) 13:53, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Btw, "Yanukovych has now described the events in Kiev as a coup." (source: same source, 'what kind of sources are you reading?!') No, before you ask, a coup also isn't synonymous with "riot". What a riot is a riot. It's a real concept that actually exists, not a silly buzzword for mass violence. (And previously he's also described it as " terrorism", including the govt's initative to declare martial law and send in the tanks for a "counter-terrorist operation", and needless to say it's also not synonymous with a riot.) Rebellion. -- Niemti ( talk) 14:35, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
I personally assess Euromaidan as an overarching protest movement, but the events from the 18th to present to be the revolution part of things. Euromaidan called for early elections and protested peacefully, and later violently. What we see today is an actual power vacuum, occupation of major state buildings, and of course the deal and later parliamentary impeachment, and power shift. 18th-22nd is the revolution as far as I can see. That, or revolution should be a separate article which includes euromaidan, and this article, and the RSA occupations. -- Львівське ( говорити) 19:41, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
The point is: there were never any "February 2014 Euromaidan riots". This is what a riot is: riot (also various dictionary definitions). It's only, once again, Wikipedia being silly.
Also for the term "Euromaidan" I don't think it's even any longer used for a long time. -- Niemti ( talk) 05:09, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
I suggest the title be February unrest in Ukraine and without the date tag "2014" as it is already notable.
Sources for "unrest":
[12]
[13]
[14]
[15]
[16]
Once again, whatever it was, THERE WAS A DISTINCT ABSENCE OF ANY RIOTS AT THE MAIDAN. Or maybe whatever invented this title meant a police riot, but in this case they didn't made it nearly clear enough. (Yes, I'm sarcastic.) -- Niemti ( talk) 04:58, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Speaking of 2014 Hrushevskoho Street riots, I look at the infobox and I see "Afghan war veterans" - and today I learnt there are many Afghans in Ukraine, thank you Wikipedia. (Yes, again sarcasm, and I didn't even look beyond the infobox.) -- Niemti ( talk) 05:24, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
"Without the date tag "2014" as it is already notable". You do know that Wikipedia is going to be read even after the year 2014, right? It's not like this is going to be an annual event. JIP | Talk 14:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
{{Requested move/dated|February 2014 Euromaidan clashes}}
February 2014 Euromaidan riots → February 2014 Euromaidan clashes – I feel calling them "riots" is a bit misleading and not the most common description of the situation. This description is more neutral and generic. The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 02:59, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree that the use of riots, as a politically charged word, is inappropriate here. "Riots" imply a sense of "impulsive violent lawlessness" without suggesting the political and social purpose that underpins them. Revolution, protest or uprising are more precise descriptors that I'd support. "Clashes" seems too vague. N4 ( talk) 06:17, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Not as much as "concluding with the peace deal", as really with just a total collapse of Yanuk power in the capital and in much (most?) of the country, and an amazingly orderly takeover by the opposition (that's except things a display of separatism in Crimea). There were never any riots in Kiev in 2014. The only riots were in instances like when some police stations elsewhere (outside Kiev) were ransacked and their archives destroyed by agitated mobs following the shooting in Kiev, but it died down quickly and even Yanuk's residence was secured by rebel militias from looting. -- Niemti ( talk) 19:37, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
popular sources for 'Ukrainian revolution': Financial Times, Telegraph -- Львівське ( говорити) 00:06, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
By my count, there are 5 for 'revolution', 1 for 'riots', and 1 (wctaiwan) on the fence but against riots. --
Львівське (
говорити)
01:42, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
It's clear from the discussion above that there is a rough, but not unanimous, consensus that the move is appropriate. Multiple independent mainstream reliable sources (BBC, Daily Telegraph, Financial Times, ITN, TIME) are now calling it a revolution, and so should we. Accordingly, I'm moving this article to 2014 Ukrainian Revolution. If you don't like this, please don't just insta-revert: instead, please suggest a better title for this article. -- The Anome ( talk) 21:11, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Lvivske, where did you get information on Chornovol??? Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 19:33, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
While the use of Twitter may be justified in this exceptional case (?) please do add the name who's tweets you're adding and try to distance yourself from the position of the author (i.e. 'government thugs' is not neutral wording). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lokalkosmopolit ( talk • contribs) 22:29, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Can someone show the source of the Trade Union burning's casualties ???Because I don't see that they were death protesters.
This content was added by User:Lokalkosmopolit "Opposition activists armed with bats and iron rods beat to death the engineer of the office Valery Konstantinovich Zakharov [1]" Who is Izvestia.kiev.ua? Is this a copy wordpress blog of the Russian Izvestia? They only have 2k likes on facebook whereas the real Izvestia (whose logo they use) has over 56,000 . Can someone confirm or deny that this "Izvestia.kiev.ua" is a reliable source or not? The content they posted, about opposition killing an engineer, was mentioned by ZERO credible press so far, making this claim very dubious.-- Львівське ( говорити) 15:28, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I apologize for this edit which I thought was vandalism at first because the page was full of these tags. I see now that the issue wasn't Pravda or just sources at random, but actually the article itself, which is a social media live-blog. This was added by Alex G, can we get a comment from him if all of the info he added was actually from this page? If so we may have to remove it and I agree with the tagging. Perhaps we can get some other eyes on this? It's a lot of content that would need to be removed, unfortunately.-- Львівське ( говорити) 04:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
Espreso tv link on Moskal is inoperational. My Google Chrome is not able to open it. If it is good link, the format should be changed; otherwise - it needs to be deleted. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 05:13, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
Particularly noted in the final paragraph of 18 February 2013 there are various references to Ukrainian terms such as titushky and siloviks which are not clear terms for use by someone unfamiliar with Ukrainian culture, could an explanation of such terms included in the article be incorporated to make for clearer reading. Tracland ( talk) 08:24, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
What makes this Musienko notable [3]? Because I once added Kravchuk's view but that was removed. Lokalkosmopolit ( talk) 17:43, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
About the recent page move to Ukraine Civil War=Per Wikipedia:Article titles Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources.. NO reliable English-language source has spoken of a Ukraine Civil War! Wikipedia is about showing what is going on, not about giving personal opinions what is going on!!!! — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:13, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I've came across numerous reports on Ukrainian atheltes withdrawing from the ongoing Winter Olympics in Sochi. Anyone who is more or less familiar, please add a few sentences about this [4] [5] -- Երևանցի talk 21:00, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I applaud all your hard work in the article but currently this article has the information "The Rada speaker (currently Volodymyr Rybak) current whereabouts are unknown". Although I find that interesting.... that sort of info belongs in a newspaper and not in an encyclopaedia. And I already found a source that stated Rybak will be found soon. Let's remove Where's Volodymyr as soon as this info is redundant/he is found. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 22:59, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
This content ("On 17 February 2014, Right Sector posted a message «In connection with the announced opposition National Headquarters on Tuesday, February 18, "peaceful offensive," all "Right Sector" units in Kiev and regions of Ukraine lead to a state of complete readiness.»") has been removed twice from the article; User:Cathry inserted it. I, personally, have no clue what it's trying to say. It also has nothing to do with the February riots, and so it's confusing why it was added as the first line of the intro to the article. -- Львівське ( говорити) 03:59, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
http://una-unso.in.ua/terminove-povidomlennya-pravogo-sektoru. It deals with 18 February riot, which was named "peaceful offensive" Cathry ( talk) 04:06, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
This section, while I think Motyl is a great mind on politics and the discussion is interesting, I don't see what Donbas separatism has to do with this article in specifics. This should be in an article on Ukrainian separatist movements or on the Donbas, not about the riots. Thoughts on removal? -- Львівське ( говорити) 03:36, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
This is not riot, this is already armed uprising.
Just a reminder here that Yulia Tymoshenko's last name is not spelled with a "i" in English reliable sources. (We seem to be off-topic anyhow....) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 22:45, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I found the Pope's response to the situation in Ukraine. I don't know the format or where exactly this would be inserted, so I thought I'd offer it here: [8]
Also, a message from the Ecumenical Patriarch, Bartholomew. http://www.patriarchate.org/documents/patriarchal-message-ukraine-2014
Pstanton ( talk) 22:10, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
The article's section about Tymoshenko may need some updating, as she's in Kiev now. [9] [10] Amazing. Sca ( talk) 22:21, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
The 'Events across Ukraine' section would benefit from some expansion, I added some information from the main Wikipedia article with a reference to BBC, I wish I had more time to expand it as I really care about it since I'm from Ukraine. Who would be willing to work on this section a little bit? :) Sofia Lucifairy ( talk) 21:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
least 82 people were killed, including 13 policemen; over 1,100 were injured
that's a "riot" or "skirmish"
saying 1,000 dead is a "protest" ?
USA history books cite "a Boston Massacre" with far less casualties. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.219.207.160 ( talk) 23:39, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
ℳ==i hate to make suggestions== since it's totally not my place.
i would think attacking one's own wealth in one's own town (public buildings taxes paid for) is not helpful if one does not have the means (if the conflict is about means and suspected holding out of).
my example is. syria has areas of towns destroyed. they cannot protest over who is in the buildings: there are no buildings and no way to rebuild them.
I think so too. Now Ukrainians have different opinions, but, I think, part of those who support these attacks have some kind of euphoria. But still it is armed coup.. Cathry ( talk) 02:40, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
It's a revolution, and it's not limited to the Maidan, or even Kiev as a whole. And "riots" is something else. Btw, A riot (/ˈraɪət/) is a form of civil disorder characterized often by what is thought of as disorganized groups lashing out in a sudden against authority, property or people. (...) Riots typically involve "vandalism and the destruction of private and/or public property." The specific property to be targeted varies depending on the riot and the inclinations of those involved. Targets can include shops, cars, restaurants, state-owned institutions, and religious buildings. The only destruction so far is directly limited to the fighting between organized and disciplined political groups, it's not like there is a mob roaming streets and plundering shops & burning cars at random (example: 2011 England riots). -- Niemti ( talk) 13:16, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
All this is political, it's not about looting and random vandalism. Riot is "a situation in which a large group of people behave in a violent and uncontrolled way". The anti-government side is highly organized, into militias (calling themselves sotnias), with advanced logistics (including field hospitals), etc. Politically, they have parties. Not a riot. An uprising. -- Niemti ( talk) 13:48, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
And what am I reading? Right now, I'm reading http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/22/ukraine-crisis-uncertainty-after-yanukovych-signs-deal-live-updates It says:
The photo illustrating it whows orderly lines of uniformed men in combat gear, the caption reads: "Anti-government protesters guard the the Ukrainian Parliament building in Kiev." That's not how a riot works. -- Niemti ( talk) 13:53, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Btw, "Yanukovych has now described the events in Kiev as a coup." (source: same source, 'what kind of sources are you reading?!') No, before you ask, a coup also isn't synonymous with "riot". What a riot is a riot. It's a real concept that actually exists, not a silly buzzword for mass violence. (And previously he's also described it as " terrorism", including the govt's initative to declare martial law and send in the tanks for a "counter-terrorist operation", and needless to say it's also not synonymous with a riot.) Rebellion. -- Niemti ( talk) 14:35, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
I personally assess Euromaidan as an overarching protest movement, but the events from the 18th to present to be the revolution part of things. Euromaidan called for early elections and protested peacefully, and later violently. What we see today is an actual power vacuum, occupation of major state buildings, and of course the deal and later parliamentary impeachment, and power shift. 18th-22nd is the revolution as far as I can see. That, or revolution should be a separate article which includes euromaidan, and this article, and the RSA occupations. -- Львівське ( говорити) 19:41, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
The point is: there were never any "February 2014 Euromaidan riots". This is what a riot is: riot (also various dictionary definitions). It's only, once again, Wikipedia being silly.
Also for the term "Euromaidan" I don't think it's even any longer used for a long time. -- Niemti ( talk) 05:09, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
I suggest the title be February unrest in Ukraine and without the date tag "2014" as it is already notable.
Sources for "unrest":
[12]
[13]
[14]
[15]
[16]
Once again, whatever it was, THERE WAS A DISTINCT ABSENCE OF ANY RIOTS AT THE MAIDAN. Or maybe whatever invented this title meant a police riot, but in this case they didn't made it nearly clear enough. (Yes, I'm sarcastic.) -- Niemti ( talk) 04:58, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Speaking of 2014 Hrushevskoho Street riots, I look at the infobox and I see "Afghan war veterans" - and today I learnt there are many Afghans in Ukraine, thank you Wikipedia. (Yes, again sarcasm, and I didn't even look beyond the infobox.) -- Niemti ( talk) 05:24, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
"Without the date tag "2014" as it is already notable". You do know that Wikipedia is going to be read even after the year 2014, right? It's not like this is going to be an annual event. JIP | Talk 14:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
{{Requested move/dated|February 2014 Euromaidan clashes}}
February 2014 Euromaidan riots → February 2014 Euromaidan clashes – I feel calling them "riots" is a bit misleading and not the most common description of the situation. This description is more neutral and generic. The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 02:59, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree that the use of riots, as a politically charged word, is inappropriate here. "Riots" imply a sense of "impulsive violent lawlessness" without suggesting the political and social purpose that underpins them. Revolution, protest or uprising are more precise descriptors that I'd support. "Clashes" seems too vague. N4 ( talk) 06:17, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Not as much as "concluding with the peace deal", as really with just a total collapse of Yanuk power in the capital and in much (most?) of the country, and an amazingly orderly takeover by the opposition (that's except things a display of separatism in Crimea). There were never any riots in Kiev in 2014. The only riots were in instances like when some police stations elsewhere (outside Kiev) were ransacked and their archives destroyed by agitated mobs following the shooting in Kiev, but it died down quickly and even Yanuk's residence was secured by rebel militias from looting. -- Niemti ( talk) 19:37, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
popular sources for 'Ukrainian revolution': Financial Times, Telegraph -- Львівське ( говорити) 00:06, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
By my count, there are 5 for 'revolution', 1 for 'riots', and 1 (wctaiwan) on the fence but against riots. --
Львівське (
говорити)
01:42, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
It's clear from the discussion above that there is a rough, but not unanimous, consensus that the move is appropriate. Multiple independent mainstream reliable sources (BBC, Daily Telegraph, Financial Times, ITN, TIME) are now calling it a revolution, and so should we. Accordingly, I'm moving this article to 2014 Ukrainian Revolution. If you don't like this, please don't just insta-revert: instead, please suggest a better title for this article. -- The Anome ( talk) 21:11, 23 February 2014 (UTC)