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How about the name "Kenzaburou"? -- User:Juuitchan, at 02:40, 7 July 2004
I'll change "Rendaku thus remains partially unpredictable, sometimes presenting a problem even to native speakers, particularly in Japanese names." to "Rendaku thus remains partially unpredictable, sometimes presenting a problem even to native speakers, particularly in Japanese names, where rendaku occurs or fails to occur often without obvious cause." -- unsigned by 172.132.87.40 at 15:01, 31 July 2004
Maybe this sentence is worth being split into two? Rs180216 ( talk) 07:38, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
"Group voice"!? More like "following-muddy", no? Jpatokal 02:10, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi,
Could you help me ? I just started learning a while ago and I have no idea why 蓮華 is not written れんけ but れんげ and found this article. Since there is no second consonant I was not sure if it is the same phanomenon or "げ" is just a rare reading.
I think it is a Rendaku case but wanted to ask :) Also I would like to know how one can handle "no second consonant" cases and if they will allways change.
If this is not the way to ask such a thing I hope you drop me a line how to do it better ;)
Thanks for reading and answering 79.192.225.72 ( talk) 02:08, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
There's a link to [[ Sandhi]] at the end of the article, but the word is not used in the text. Is rendaku just the Japanese word for sandhi, or is there some distinction? Randall Bart Talk 02:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
"The "voicing" is not a strict change from voiceless to voiced sounds, but rather the action of adding a dakuten to the first kana of the portion being altered."
I don't think that is a good way to describe this phenomenon because it has nothing to do with the writing system. The change occurs in the speech of illiterates and children as well, and as far as we know it occurred before writing entered Japan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.180.47.247 ( talk) 21:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I tried to remove this passage again but my edit was reverted -- I want to see some citation from an actual Japanese linguistics article or book that describes rendaku as a phenomenon of written symbols rather than of spoken sounds. Otherwise, I'm going to remove the sentence again. The current wording is misleading or nonsense: "The "voicing" is not a strict change from voiceless to voiced sounds, but rather the action of adding a dakuten to the first kana of the portion being altered." That would mean that rendaku did not occur before the invention of kana and of dakuten. It may be easy for learning Japanese to use this idea, but for an article describing the linguistic phenomenon in an encyclopedia, it's not appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.77.26 ( talk) 20:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Romanizations of Japanese should not be in square brackets. Else they look like IPA, and it gets confusing.-- Solomonfromfinland ( talk) 07:12, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Unbelievably there was just a single kana with dakuten hidden somewhere in the depths of the article! I added the corresponding hiragana to the examples given. I believe this greatly helps understanding. Of course there might be arguments against it, like "those words are rarely written in hiragana" or "these details belong in the kana articles", but I would like to argue that in any case this is much better than just the plain roomaji. -- BjKa ( talk) 10:45, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
The last example does not exemplify Lyman's Law in the way it was described in the artice, since the second consonant of the second part of suno + tokage is a "k" which is an "un"voiced obstruent. Changed the explanation of Lyman's law, and added a reference. Logologics ( talk) 15:54, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
What makes it un voiced? Rs180216 ( talk) 07:37, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Please also add the 漢字 to the Examples. Jidanni ( talk) 05:33, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
on this page there is no mention of y changing, as only consonant changes are listed however there are exampüles where y becomes b, for example the word fubuki (blizzard) it consists of the stem for the verb blow "fu.ku" and snow "yuki" which becomes buki — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.187.253.28 ( talk) 09:41, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
There are hyphens in many of the examples, ostensibly showing morpheme boundaries, but currently they are inconsistent and some are inaccurate. For example, fu-ku should be fuk-u. Are they necessary? -- Rdoegcd ( talk) 22:08, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
It would be more useful if the examples also stated what is the voiced obstruent in the second element in each example. 89.139.191.144 ( talk) 08:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Porkey & Toothy: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the content of this edit doesn't sound like rendaku. The only compound word listed in the examples is 魔女, and the form it takes in the unspecified northern dialects in question also doesn't sound like rendaku. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 11:19, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
I am not knowledgeable about rendaku so I went on this page to read about it. While it explains what it is, its origins, and gives some examples, there doesn't seem to be an explanation of the rule itself and how it's used?
I might be misunderstanding but while there are explanations of the exception to the rule, it's missing the definition of the rule itself. It's not something I can write myself so I am leaving this discussion post here to ask about it. CeaselessAlarmed ( talk) 12:32, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
CeaselessAlarmed ( talk) 16:00, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Research into defining the range of situations affected by rendaku has largely been limited to finding circumstances (outlined below) which cause the phenomenon not to manifest.
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Rendaku article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
How about the name "Kenzaburou"? -- User:Juuitchan, at 02:40, 7 July 2004
I'll change "Rendaku thus remains partially unpredictable, sometimes presenting a problem even to native speakers, particularly in Japanese names." to "Rendaku thus remains partially unpredictable, sometimes presenting a problem even to native speakers, particularly in Japanese names, where rendaku occurs or fails to occur often without obvious cause." -- unsigned by 172.132.87.40 at 15:01, 31 July 2004
Maybe this sentence is worth being split into two? Rs180216 ( talk) 07:38, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
"Group voice"!? More like "following-muddy", no? Jpatokal 02:10, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi,
Could you help me ? I just started learning a while ago and I have no idea why 蓮華 is not written れんけ but れんげ and found this article. Since there is no second consonant I was not sure if it is the same phanomenon or "げ" is just a rare reading.
I think it is a Rendaku case but wanted to ask :) Also I would like to know how one can handle "no second consonant" cases and if they will allways change.
If this is not the way to ask such a thing I hope you drop me a line how to do it better ;)
Thanks for reading and answering 79.192.225.72 ( talk) 02:08, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
There's a link to [[ Sandhi]] at the end of the article, but the word is not used in the text. Is rendaku just the Japanese word for sandhi, or is there some distinction? Randall Bart Talk 02:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
"The "voicing" is not a strict change from voiceless to voiced sounds, but rather the action of adding a dakuten to the first kana of the portion being altered."
I don't think that is a good way to describe this phenomenon because it has nothing to do with the writing system. The change occurs in the speech of illiterates and children as well, and as far as we know it occurred before writing entered Japan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.180.47.247 ( talk) 21:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I tried to remove this passage again but my edit was reverted -- I want to see some citation from an actual Japanese linguistics article or book that describes rendaku as a phenomenon of written symbols rather than of spoken sounds. Otherwise, I'm going to remove the sentence again. The current wording is misleading or nonsense: "The "voicing" is not a strict change from voiceless to voiced sounds, but rather the action of adding a dakuten to the first kana of the portion being altered." That would mean that rendaku did not occur before the invention of kana and of dakuten. It may be easy for learning Japanese to use this idea, but for an article describing the linguistic phenomenon in an encyclopedia, it's not appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.77.26 ( talk) 20:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Romanizations of Japanese should not be in square brackets. Else they look like IPA, and it gets confusing.-- Solomonfromfinland ( talk) 07:12, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Unbelievably there was just a single kana with dakuten hidden somewhere in the depths of the article! I added the corresponding hiragana to the examples given. I believe this greatly helps understanding. Of course there might be arguments against it, like "those words are rarely written in hiragana" or "these details belong in the kana articles", but I would like to argue that in any case this is much better than just the plain roomaji. -- BjKa ( talk) 10:45, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
The last example does not exemplify Lyman's Law in the way it was described in the artice, since the second consonant of the second part of suno + tokage is a "k" which is an "un"voiced obstruent. Changed the explanation of Lyman's law, and added a reference. Logologics ( talk) 15:54, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
What makes it un voiced? Rs180216 ( talk) 07:37, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Please also add the 漢字 to the Examples. Jidanni ( talk) 05:33, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
on this page there is no mention of y changing, as only consonant changes are listed however there are exampüles where y becomes b, for example the word fubuki (blizzard) it consists of the stem for the verb blow "fu.ku" and snow "yuki" which becomes buki — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.187.253.28 ( talk) 09:41, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
There are hyphens in many of the examples, ostensibly showing morpheme boundaries, but currently they are inconsistent and some are inaccurate. For example, fu-ku should be fuk-u. Are they necessary? -- Rdoegcd ( talk) 22:08, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
It would be more useful if the examples also stated what is the voiced obstruent in the second element in each example. 89.139.191.144 ( talk) 08:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Porkey & Toothy: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the content of this edit doesn't sound like rendaku. The only compound word listed in the examples is 魔女, and the form it takes in the unspecified northern dialects in question also doesn't sound like rendaku. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 11:19, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
I am not knowledgeable about rendaku so I went on this page to read about it. While it explains what it is, its origins, and gives some examples, there doesn't seem to be an explanation of the rule itself and how it's used?
I might be misunderstanding but while there are explanations of the exception to the rule, it's missing the definition of the rule itself. It's not something I can write myself so I am leaving this discussion post here to ask about it. CeaselessAlarmed ( talk) 12:32, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
CeaselessAlarmed ( talk) 16:00, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Research into defining the range of situations affected by rendaku has largely been limited to finding circumstances (outlined below) which cause the phenomenon not to manifest.