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It's probably worth noting that Jhonen Vasquez's work with Invader Zim had an influence on Rebecca Sugar when she was younger. There's an archive of some of her fan fiction from the early 2000s. I wonder what else influenced her or who she has influenced? -- Bushido Hacks ( talk) 19:02, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I was wondering, so I checked. According to the bio currently at the top of https://twitter.com/rebeccasugar, "She/her or they/them, thank you for caring!" -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:51, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
If someone uses both they and she, use both interchangeably. It's not hard. Shardok ( talk) 08:23, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Rebecca Sugar is a non-binary woman, and is the not only the first woman, but the first non-binary person in history to independently create a series for Cartoon Network. Those are two impressive moments in her history and to only mention one is partially erasing history. It doesn't matter what Rebecca publicly identified as during the show's creation, she came out because she wanted people to know who she is. She based her gems, from creation, to be nonbinary women like herself. To only give her half the credit is erasing history. The first person to be openly non-binary during a show's creation will not be the first non-binary person to independently create a series for the network, it will always be Rebecca Sugar. That is a fact, and it deserves to be known. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cultrocknroll ( talk • contribs) 13:17, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
It only wrongly implies that if one wrongly believes that an accomplishment by a nonbinary person must come after an accomplishment by a binary person. Shardok ( talk) 08:25, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
In response to this edit summary from
Shardok: She is not a woman, she is a nonbinary woman.
I'm legitimately confused by this. Surely to say that you are a non-binary woman is to say that you are both non-binary and a woman? I'm not sure it makes sense to say that she is "not a woman". Meanwhile if Sugar ever did come out and say "I'm not a woman" I would, in that case, fully support changing the wording of the lead.
WanderingWanda (
talk) 20:37, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
While I understand that Sugar says she identifies as a nonbinary woman, however as far as I am aware these are not compatible labels. A woman is a binary gender identity and nonbinary is a nonbinary gender identity. I am not certain what if any authority can confirm this however the LGBT foundation uses a definition that suggests one can't be a woman and nonbinary. I don't deny that she uses she/her/hers and they/them/theirs, and she may describe her identity as woman and non-binary but how should we proceed given that it isn't logically consistent? In regards to "does not fit themselves into the socio-cultural gender binary" if the noconformity is in gender expression they are simply gender non-comforming. Gender nonconformity isn't a gender identity and doesn't indicate gender identity. Technically neither does gender expression so it seems to be a moot point. [1]05:22, 5 February 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BriarRose2020 ( talk • contribs)
however as far as I am aware these are not compatible labels
So Steven Universe was just nominated for another Emmy, and so someone quite sensibly increased the number of nominations Sugar has received from five to six. One problem though: the cited source, the Emmys website, still lists only five nominations for Rebecca Sugar. Is there a way to handle this? Do we just have to say, well, Steven Universe was nominated for a sixth Emmy, but Rebecca Sugar herself wasn't, because that's what the Emmy Awards website says? AJD ( talk) 21:06, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Why is Rebecca Sugar’s image here a picture of Matt Bennett? Ms8763 ( talk) 03:10, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
No idea who this is but isn't non-binary women a contradiction? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LoganBlade ( talk • contribs) 07:10, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
It is a contradiction in terms. Notably the article linked above doesn't actually explain the usage of the term. She establishes that the alien race (Crystal Gems) which do not reproduce sexually with eachother appear female. But are more representative of nonbinary women. It is unclear how this is the case. She states that they are nonbinary women and suggests they are more representative of nonbinary women than females. She says their also a nonbinary woman but we know it can't be for the exact same reasons as the crytal gems because Sugar is a homo sapien and would therefore have a binary sex or intersex condition. 05:30, 5 February 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BriarRose2020 ( talk • contribs)
In this interview, Rebecca Sugar describes herself in a couple of places as not identifying as a woman: "I don't really mind if people are perceiving me as a woman, but it's something I personally don't feel is true"; "I didn't feel like I could talk about the fact that I didn't identify as a woman." Does this mean we should revisit the "non-binary woman" description that we use in this article (also taken from an interview with Sugar)? AJD ( talk) 17:18, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
^^ Agreed! Awesome. I wish I saw this section before jumping in on one of the other many gender sections. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
BriarRose2020 (
talk •
contribs) 05:32, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Well, can there be an edit then? “Sugar is the first non-binary to independently create a series for the network.” Erinious ( talk) 09:43, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
That confusion is why I think a note would be useful for the average reader.-- Gen. Quon (Talk) 18:45, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
They/them pronouns should be used. Even though sugar has publicly used both, they/them should needs to be the standard to help normalize the pronouns, especially since Steven is canonically a trans character 76.72.35.96 ( talk) 08:51, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template.
ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 12:29, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
You can't be nonbinary and a woman. 87.115.67.22 ( talk) 22:24, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
“ making her(??) both the first woman(?) [1] and the first non-binary individual”
They’re non binary, this needs to be edited, the whole “first woman” thing is inaccurate, they were the first NON-BINARY individual, not first woman. This is just misgendering them. 2607:9880:2FC0:E1:8141:5C9A:E3AA:CB1B ( talk) 15:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
there are multiple active discussions about how many people have expressed that Rebecca sugar is non binary not a woman.
And nobody is doing anything about it. 2607:9880:2FC0:E1:8141:5C9A:E3AA:CB1B ( talk) 15:43, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
"I don't really mind if people are perceiving me as a woman, but it's something I personally don't feel is true."and
"Because I was the first woman to create a show for Cartoon Network, people would tell me constantly that I was a role model for little girls and women in the industry which felt extremely important to me to the point where I didn't feel like I could talk about the fact that I didn't identify as a woman."IP 2607, there's been debate here and at Talk:Steven Universe about the best way to phrase the "first" point. What would you prefer? Firefangledfeathers 19:09, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "she" to "they" whenever you are talking about Rebecca. Lauwerys ( talk) 03:28, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Gen. Quon reverted an edit by an IP introducing Rebecca's husband, Ian Jones-Quartey's, grandmother (Rebecca's grandmother-in-law), Theodosia Okoh (notable for designing Ghana's flag), to the relatives section of the infobox, because they were unsure if in-laws were typically listed. I went looking for some guidance and happened to find virtually zero policy, guidelines, or even discussions that made consensus clear (the closest I got was soap opera character infobox discussions from 2012).
Though it's a bit WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, I decided to see if any Featured Articles (specifically biographies in the "media" category of FAs so that I had a limited list which was relevant to the type of article this is) linked to in-laws, as at least that would imply that in some cases they're not necessarily omitted for quality reasons. The following three FAs of media personalities technically link to in-laws in one way or another: Katrina Kaif (links to a subsection of "List of Hindi film families" regarding the Kaushal family, which she married into), Dimple Kapadia (links to Akshay Kumar, her son-in-law), and Priyanka Chopra (links to Category:Jonas family, which contains notable members of the Jonas family, which she married into).
I thought about using this as a tentative, just-as-cautious rationale for reverting back to including it, but I thought it may be better to start a discussion to come to consensus about including her?
(As a note: Rebecca has been included in the same fashion in Okoh's article since November 2020, so if consensus is to not include, perhaps it's worth removing from Okoh's article as well?) - Purplewowies ( talk) 18:44, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
A template at the top of this page says, "This biographical article uses the pronouns she/her. See her Twitter profile." When I click on the link, I see her profile says "she/they". Should the template here be updated? --- Another Believer ( Talk) 14:47, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
This biographical article uses the pronouns she/her. See her Twitter profile, which currently reads "pronoun flexible, she/they". See [discussion links x, y, z] establishing current consensus to use "she/her". |
If consensus cannot be reached over which pronouns to use for a subject, rewriting to avoid pronouns altogether may be considered. However, this can make the article very awkward or confusing to read and therefore should only be done as a last resort. Some editors favor the use of the Singular they in cases where gender identity is in question and no pronoun preference has been declared by the biographical subject. Other editors do not. they/them pronouns are always acceptable in article space for subjects who have stated that they prefer them.
Generally speaking, the rule for writing about drag queens is the same as the rule for speaking about them: when you're writing about the drag character, you use the pronouns that are applicable to the gender of the character, but when you're writing about the performer's personal life out of drag, you use the pronouns that are applicable to their real-life gender identity. Yes, this can result in mixing of pronouns when a drag queen identifies as male in his personal life, but of course there are also both cis and trans women who do drag, as well as queens who identify as non-binary or genderqueer and use gender-neutral pronouns — and both of the articles you've singled out actually appear to be doing it wrong, because they both use female pronouns consistently, even for out-of-drag personal life content, without actually stating or sourcing that either Zavion Davenport or Joey Santolini identifies as female outside of their work as drag performers.
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Rebecca Sugar article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more non-binary people. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Many, but not all, non-binary people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
This biographical article uses the pronouns she/her. See her Twitter profile, which currently reads "pronoun flexible, she/they". See discussions ( 1, 2, 3) establishing current consensus to use "she/her". |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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It's probably worth noting that Jhonen Vasquez's work with Invader Zim had an influence on Rebecca Sugar when she was younger. There's an archive of some of her fan fiction from the early 2000s. I wonder what else influenced her or who she has influenced? -- Bushido Hacks ( talk) 19:02, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I was wondering, so I checked. According to the bio currently at the top of https://twitter.com/rebeccasugar, "She/her or they/them, thank you for caring!" -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:51, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
If someone uses both they and she, use both interchangeably. It's not hard. Shardok ( talk) 08:23, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Rebecca Sugar is a non-binary woman, and is the not only the first woman, but the first non-binary person in history to independently create a series for Cartoon Network. Those are two impressive moments in her history and to only mention one is partially erasing history. It doesn't matter what Rebecca publicly identified as during the show's creation, she came out because she wanted people to know who she is. She based her gems, from creation, to be nonbinary women like herself. To only give her half the credit is erasing history. The first person to be openly non-binary during a show's creation will not be the first non-binary person to independently create a series for the network, it will always be Rebecca Sugar. That is a fact, and it deserves to be known. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cultrocknroll ( talk • contribs) 13:17, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
It only wrongly implies that if one wrongly believes that an accomplishment by a nonbinary person must come after an accomplishment by a binary person. Shardok ( talk) 08:25, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
In response to this edit summary from
Shardok: She is not a woman, she is a nonbinary woman.
I'm legitimately confused by this. Surely to say that you are a non-binary woman is to say that you are both non-binary and a woman? I'm not sure it makes sense to say that she is "not a woman". Meanwhile if Sugar ever did come out and say "I'm not a woman" I would, in that case, fully support changing the wording of the lead.
WanderingWanda (
talk) 20:37, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
While I understand that Sugar says she identifies as a nonbinary woman, however as far as I am aware these are not compatible labels. A woman is a binary gender identity and nonbinary is a nonbinary gender identity. I am not certain what if any authority can confirm this however the LGBT foundation uses a definition that suggests one can't be a woman and nonbinary. I don't deny that she uses she/her/hers and they/them/theirs, and she may describe her identity as woman and non-binary but how should we proceed given that it isn't logically consistent? In regards to "does not fit themselves into the socio-cultural gender binary" if the noconformity is in gender expression they are simply gender non-comforming. Gender nonconformity isn't a gender identity and doesn't indicate gender identity. Technically neither does gender expression so it seems to be a moot point. [1]05:22, 5 February 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BriarRose2020 ( talk • contribs)
however as far as I am aware these are not compatible labels
So Steven Universe was just nominated for another Emmy, and so someone quite sensibly increased the number of nominations Sugar has received from five to six. One problem though: the cited source, the Emmys website, still lists only five nominations for Rebecca Sugar. Is there a way to handle this? Do we just have to say, well, Steven Universe was nominated for a sixth Emmy, but Rebecca Sugar herself wasn't, because that's what the Emmy Awards website says? AJD ( talk) 21:06, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Why is Rebecca Sugar’s image here a picture of Matt Bennett? Ms8763 ( talk) 03:10, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
No idea who this is but isn't non-binary women a contradiction? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LoganBlade ( talk • contribs) 07:10, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
It is a contradiction in terms. Notably the article linked above doesn't actually explain the usage of the term. She establishes that the alien race (Crystal Gems) which do not reproduce sexually with eachother appear female. But are more representative of nonbinary women. It is unclear how this is the case. She states that they are nonbinary women and suggests they are more representative of nonbinary women than females. She says their also a nonbinary woman but we know it can't be for the exact same reasons as the crytal gems because Sugar is a homo sapien and would therefore have a binary sex or intersex condition. 05:30, 5 February 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BriarRose2020 ( talk • contribs)
In this interview, Rebecca Sugar describes herself in a couple of places as not identifying as a woman: "I don't really mind if people are perceiving me as a woman, but it's something I personally don't feel is true"; "I didn't feel like I could talk about the fact that I didn't identify as a woman." Does this mean we should revisit the "non-binary woman" description that we use in this article (also taken from an interview with Sugar)? AJD ( talk) 17:18, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
^^ Agreed! Awesome. I wish I saw this section before jumping in on one of the other many gender sections. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
BriarRose2020 (
talk •
contribs) 05:32, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Well, can there be an edit then? “Sugar is the first non-binary to independently create a series for the network.” Erinious ( talk) 09:43, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
That confusion is why I think a note would be useful for the average reader.-- Gen. Quon (Talk) 18:45, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
They/them pronouns should be used. Even though sugar has publicly used both, they/them should needs to be the standard to help normalize the pronouns, especially since Steven is canonically a trans character 76.72.35.96 ( talk) 08:51, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template.
ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 12:29, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
You can't be nonbinary and a woman. 87.115.67.22 ( talk) 22:24, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
“ making her(??) both the first woman(?) [1] and the first non-binary individual”
They’re non binary, this needs to be edited, the whole “first woman” thing is inaccurate, they were the first NON-BINARY individual, not first woman. This is just misgendering them. 2607:9880:2FC0:E1:8141:5C9A:E3AA:CB1B ( talk) 15:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
there are multiple active discussions about how many people have expressed that Rebecca sugar is non binary not a woman.
And nobody is doing anything about it. 2607:9880:2FC0:E1:8141:5C9A:E3AA:CB1B ( talk) 15:43, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
"I don't really mind if people are perceiving me as a woman, but it's something I personally don't feel is true."and
"Because I was the first woman to create a show for Cartoon Network, people would tell me constantly that I was a role model for little girls and women in the industry which felt extremely important to me to the point where I didn't feel like I could talk about the fact that I didn't identify as a woman."IP 2607, there's been debate here and at Talk:Steven Universe about the best way to phrase the "first" point. What would you prefer? Firefangledfeathers 19:09, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "she" to "they" whenever you are talking about Rebecca. Lauwerys ( talk) 03:28, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Gen. Quon reverted an edit by an IP introducing Rebecca's husband, Ian Jones-Quartey's, grandmother (Rebecca's grandmother-in-law), Theodosia Okoh (notable for designing Ghana's flag), to the relatives section of the infobox, because they were unsure if in-laws were typically listed. I went looking for some guidance and happened to find virtually zero policy, guidelines, or even discussions that made consensus clear (the closest I got was soap opera character infobox discussions from 2012).
Though it's a bit WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, I decided to see if any Featured Articles (specifically biographies in the "media" category of FAs so that I had a limited list which was relevant to the type of article this is) linked to in-laws, as at least that would imply that in some cases they're not necessarily omitted for quality reasons. The following three FAs of media personalities technically link to in-laws in one way or another: Katrina Kaif (links to a subsection of "List of Hindi film families" regarding the Kaushal family, which she married into), Dimple Kapadia (links to Akshay Kumar, her son-in-law), and Priyanka Chopra (links to Category:Jonas family, which contains notable members of the Jonas family, which she married into).
I thought about using this as a tentative, just-as-cautious rationale for reverting back to including it, but I thought it may be better to start a discussion to come to consensus about including her?
(As a note: Rebecca has been included in the same fashion in Okoh's article since November 2020, so if consensus is to not include, perhaps it's worth removing from Okoh's article as well?) - Purplewowies ( talk) 18:44, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
A template at the top of this page says, "This biographical article uses the pronouns she/her. See her Twitter profile." When I click on the link, I see her profile says "she/they". Should the template here be updated? --- Another Believer ( Talk) 14:47, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
This biographical article uses the pronouns she/her. See her Twitter profile, which currently reads "pronoun flexible, she/they". See [discussion links x, y, z] establishing current consensus to use "she/her". |
If consensus cannot be reached over which pronouns to use for a subject, rewriting to avoid pronouns altogether may be considered. However, this can make the article very awkward or confusing to read and therefore should only be done as a last resort. Some editors favor the use of the Singular they in cases where gender identity is in question and no pronoun preference has been declared by the biographical subject. Other editors do not. they/them pronouns are always acceptable in article space for subjects who have stated that they prefer them.
Generally speaking, the rule for writing about drag queens is the same as the rule for speaking about them: when you're writing about the drag character, you use the pronouns that are applicable to the gender of the character, but when you're writing about the performer's personal life out of drag, you use the pronouns that are applicable to their real-life gender identity. Yes, this can result in mixing of pronouns when a drag queen identifies as male in his personal life, but of course there are also both cis and trans women who do drag, as well as queens who identify as non-binary or genderqueer and use gender-neutral pronouns — and both of the articles you've singled out actually appear to be doing it wrong, because they both use female pronouns consistently, even for out-of-drag personal life content, without actually stating or sourcing that either Zavion Davenport or Joey Santolini identifies as female outside of their work as drag performers.