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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2019 and 19 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Erica.Coppola.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 07:51, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I am not clear on why MOS identity does not apply here. The page states: 'An exception to this is made for terms relating to gender. In such cases we favor self-designation, even when source usage would indicate otherwise. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and " [sic]" may be used where necessary).' Does her time of birth not count as a phase of her life? It is invasive and unnecessary to include trans people's birth names on their pages, especially as glaringly as they are. Girlsimulation ( talk) 02:18, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Other transwomen do not have birth names, example Amanda_Simpson
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@ Indrian: Hi Indrian. I recently removed multiple references to Becky's deadname. However, a quick check on the page's history, as well as the talk page's history shows that you have been undoing edits like these for at least six years now, and it doesn't seem like you're going to stop any time soon. I'm also fairly stubborn, and I foresee an edit war approaching, so I'd like to head things off now and see if we can come to a resolution so no animosity happens. I hope you'll be accepting of what I write here, and I promise to do my best to read your responses with an open mind :)
I'd first like to explain my edits, then attempt to convince you of why I believe they are necessary.
As directed by MOS:IDINFO recommendations 2 and 3, I don't believe Becky's deadname should be published here. Recommendation 2 states "Before including a transgender subject's former name inline, consider including it as a footnote instead." I didn't see you attempt to do this in any of the edits I read. I think if we really, truly, absolutely need to mention Becky's deadname, it should be in a footnote. Recommendation 3 states "If a transgender subject's former or legal name is not well known or widely reported, don't include it, even if it appears in a few reliable sources." As far as I can tell, nobody refers to Becky by her deadname, and none of the articles or videos I've seen about her have used that name for her. I have absolutely never heard her called by her deadname until I read this article, so I don't think it's that well-known. Worst-case scenario, I left her deadname in the "Other names" section in case some sources refer to her with her deadname.
I'd like to now talk about why deadnaming is such a horrible thing. I'm new here, but the rules for Civility have some recommendations on trying to deal with things before they get uncivil, and I'd like to try to use those so everyone here is happy :)
First, some of your responses seem a bit short-tempered. Maybe you feel strongly about this subject and are frustrated, maybe I'm reading too far into things. Regardless, I will do my best to assume good faith, apologies if I slip and do the opposite. Now, your insistence on deadnaming Becky makes me feel upset, and scared. In your edits, you deadname her multiple times, far more than I think is necessary, as if you're aggressively trying to make a point. If you need to deadname her at all, once is more than enough. The very thought that one day I might end up on Wikipedia with my deadname plastered everywhere is terrifying. It really makes me hope nothing big ever happens to me, my private life shouldn't be open for people to dissect and treat like a plaything just because I wrote some code.
Now, in one of your edit messages, you say "It’s almost as if she did most of her important work under her birth name...oh wait..." and while I agree that's true, I haven't really seen her as a prominent figure until very recently. Just because she did important work under a deadname doesn't mean she should be referred to as such, especially if she's only been seen as a notable figure after her name change.
Being deadnamed isn't just a minor inconvenience, it really, truly hurts. Few things hurt me anymore, but being deadnamed, especially multiple times, brings me to tears. In your talk post, you say "Wikipedia does not exist to coverup historical fact to serve the agenda of one user; it exists to provide knowledge" as though not wanting people to be deadnamed is some sort of "agenda". In my opinion, Becky's deadname does absolutely nothing to increase the knowledge of the world. In an edit on December 19, 2019 you say "You cannot erase a person's history for political expediency. Sorry." I don't really understand this at all. Sure, a deadname is part of someone's history, but it's also unnecessary to bring up. There's nothing political about not deadnaming a person, it's really just basic decency. Deadnaming a trans person causes significant emotional distress, and purposely deadnaming someone multiple times without a reason for doing so is very upsetting.
Now, I'd like to explain why I think your deadnaming is aggressive. In this edit, you deadname her at the beginning of the article with "born [deadname]", again a sentence later with "credited as [deadname]" despite the issue of "being credited in what?", and no citation. You again deadname her in the "Early life" section, despite adding no new information that has not been written twice already. On January 20, 2020 someone removed many of those references, and left a message stating "I don't speak for Rebecca, but I found the existing wording emphasized her former name more than was necessary for the article." You then reply by undoing the edit, and responding "It’s almost as if she did most of her important work under her birth name...oh wait..." despite that being completely irrelevant to whether or not you were over-emphasizing hear deadname. I'm keeping in mind the "assume good faith" policy, but I do believe you overemphasize her deadname quite a bit.
I hope I've been able to adequately explain why people are upset and frustrated at your deadnaming, and provided a valid reason (through MOS:IDINFO) to remove many of those references. I hope you'll be able to see things through the eyes of a trans person, and understand that trans people not wanting to be deadnamed has absolutely nothing to do with politics, censorship, erasure of knowledge/information/history, etc. It's really just something that deeply hurts us, and it's basic decency to not deadname us any more than absolutely necessary.
I apologize for such a long wall of text, but I'm doing my best to be as expressive as possible. If you disagree with my views, perhaps we can use a dispute resolution, as we both seem to be passionate and stubborn on this issue, and the last thing I want (and I'm sure the last thing you want) is to be involved in a 6 year edit war. Thanks for reading :) 3nk1namshub ( talk) 04:08, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
You reverted edits removing the unnecessary deadnaming. You are just as responsible as the editor who originally wrote the material. 3nk1namshub ( talk) 17:03, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Reminder: this article i s covered by WP:BLP and the attendant Arbitration Committee sanctions. The way we handle deadnames is as follows:
The article on Wendy Carlos is a good model of how we handle this. Guy ( help!) 21:09, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Recently, Cullen328 has asked to hear what editors think about the current situation regarding Becky's deadname. To avoid any residual issues in the previous section, I've opted to start a new one.
As the page currently stands (as of this edit) I believe everything is appropriate. Becky's former nicknames are mentioned in the "Other names" box, and her deadname is mentioned in the "Early life" section. Anyone doing research on Becky's contributions to gaming should have absolutely no issues finding information about the work under her deadname, as I believe it should be obvious to any researcher to look things up in both names. Being trans myself, I would prefer her deadname be mentioned only in a footnote (per MOS:IDINFO recommendation 2), making it less visible for casual readers (who will already see that Becky is trans, and have no need to find her deadname), yet still readily available for researchers. However, as I am a new editor, I will of course defer to more experienced editors regarding the MOS. TL;DR I take very little issue with the article's current naming (I don't know how to word this, apologies if you don't understand), and would be happy if it stayed the way it is. 3nk1namshub ( talk) 21:04, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
I actually see no problem with Indrian'e edits. This individual was known by their former name from the start of their career, 1980 to 2005 when they transitioned. From the time of their transition onward, they would be notable under their new name. This article doesn't even mention that name. Our notability guideline states this has to be done. That said, should it be done every time their new name is mentioned? No way. Once or twice is fine. (Not in a row either! :) ). Doing this is in keeping with the notability guidelines, sticking with what reliable sources say and is writing the article neutrally. I would move that this individuals name be mentioned at least once anywhere in the 1980 to 2004 time line, thereafter, their new name, as long as it's reliably sourced and they meet notability guidelines, is fine.
I'm going to address something before someone slings this at me. I'm not transphobic by any means, I worked with a supervisor that transitioned and once the transition occurred, I addressed them with their preferred name and pronoun and was quick to correct anyone that didn't. (I was known as an SOB for doing so, but I didn't care! ). W.K.W.W.K... Toss a coin to the witcher, ye valley of plenty 16:33, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Around 2003, Heineman began transitioning to a woman 77.191.160.35 ( talk) 20:02, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
To head off another completely pointless name edit war on this page, here is the full story of the Burger nickname as told by Heinemann to Matt Barton. See Gamasutra for the full interview.
I've been holding off on this question for awhile, but I have to know. How'd you get to be called "Burger"?
RH: Remember when I told you I was flat broke? When we founded Interplay, we didn't pay ourselves much. We were starving. When I was at Boone Corporation, I was being paid twelve thousand a year. Slave wages. I was a kid; I didn't know any better. My entire life was get up, go to work, work until I'm too tired, sleep, repeat. Didn't have time for cooking, and I didn't have any money.
There was a place called Hamburger Stand. They sold 29 cent hamburgers. Since I spent most of my time at the office, I didn't want to walk over, buy a burger, and walk back.
So I'd buy a bag of twenty of them. Blow six bucks, get twenty burgers, go to my office, and put them in a drawer. I was too cheap to buy a refrigerator -- well, really too broke. Every so often I'd open the drawer and eat a burger.
I had an office mate who was a health food nut, constantly complaining about how I should eat right, exercise like he did. One day I was working all through the night. I didn't leave. It's the morning, and he comes in, sits across from me. I'm still working.
Around 3 p.m., I'm done. Burger time! I pull open the drawer, reach in, put the bag down, grab a burger, and start munching. Wasn't thinking anything about it. That's when my co-worker looks at me, looks back, looks at me -- and it dawns on him that the bag has been there for who knows how long. Those burgers are pretty firm.
He just loses it. He jumps up, his chair goes flying, he goes, "That burger is insane! That burger is insane!" He runs out. I'm sitting there like, "What's with him? Whatever." Then later Brian Fargo comes in and asks what I did to him. I didn't do anything. What's going on? My co-worker had gone to the restroom and tossed his cookies. That's how disgusted he was.
So then, the rumor started. "Did you eat any burgers lately?" So they started calling me Burger. I played along. "Okay, I'll get a burger. I'll eat a burger." Later on, unbeknownst to anybody, I had an issue with the name I was given at birth. So I would rather be called Burger than by that birth name. "Just call me burger." For the next twenty years, that was my name. Everybody called me Burger. Now my name is Becky. I finally shed the name Burger.
So yeah, Burger was a standalone nickname. Indrian ( talk) 17:30, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The following Wikipedia contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
conflict of interest,
autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2019 and 19 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Erica.Coppola.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 07:51, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I am not clear on why MOS identity does not apply here. The page states: 'An exception to this is made for terms relating to gender. In such cases we favor self-designation, even when source usage would indicate otherwise. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and " [sic]" may be used where necessary).' Does her time of birth not count as a phase of her life? It is invasive and unnecessary to include trans people's birth names on their pages, especially as glaringly as they are. Girlsimulation ( talk) 02:18, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Other transwomen do not have birth names, example Amanda_Simpson
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@ Indrian: Hi Indrian. I recently removed multiple references to Becky's deadname. However, a quick check on the page's history, as well as the talk page's history shows that you have been undoing edits like these for at least six years now, and it doesn't seem like you're going to stop any time soon. I'm also fairly stubborn, and I foresee an edit war approaching, so I'd like to head things off now and see if we can come to a resolution so no animosity happens. I hope you'll be accepting of what I write here, and I promise to do my best to read your responses with an open mind :)
I'd first like to explain my edits, then attempt to convince you of why I believe they are necessary.
As directed by MOS:IDINFO recommendations 2 and 3, I don't believe Becky's deadname should be published here. Recommendation 2 states "Before including a transgender subject's former name inline, consider including it as a footnote instead." I didn't see you attempt to do this in any of the edits I read. I think if we really, truly, absolutely need to mention Becky's deadname, it should be in a footnote. Recommendation 3 states "If a transgender subject's former or legal name is not well known or widely reported, don't include it, even if it appears in a few reliable sources." As far as I can tell, nobody refers to Becky by her deadname, and none of the articles or videos I've seen about her have used that name for her. I have absolutely never heard her called by her deadname until I read this article, so I don't think it's that well-known. Worst-case scenario, I left her deadname in the "Other names" section in case some sources refer to her with her deadname.
I'd like to now talk about why deadnaming is such a horrible thing. I'm new here, but the rules for Civility have some recommendations on trying to deal with things before they get uncivil, and I'd like to try to use those so everyone here is happy :)
First, some of your responses seem a bit short-tempered. Maybe you feel strongly about this subject and are frustrated, maybe I'm reading too far into things. Regardless, I will do my best to assume good faith, apologies if I slip and do the opposite. Now, your insistence on deadnaming Becky makes me feel upset, and scared. In your edits, you deadname her multiple times, far more than I think is necessary, as if you're aggressively trying to make a point. If you need to deadname her at all, once is more than enough. The very thought that one day I might end up on Wikipedia with my deadname plastered everywhere is terrifying. It really makes me hope nothing big ever happens to me, my private life shouldn't be open for people to dissect and treat like a plaything just because I wrote some code.
Now, in one of your edit messages, you say "It’s almost as if she did most of her important work under her birth name...oh wait..." and while I agree that's true, I haven't really seen her as a prominent figure until very recently. Just because she did important work under a deadname doesn't mean she should be referred to as such, especially if she's only been seen as a notable figure after her name change.
Being deadnamed isn't just a minor inconvenience, it really, truly hurts. Few things hurt me anymore, but being deadnamed, especially multiple times, brings me to tears. In your talk post, you say "Wikipedia does not exist to coverup historical fact to serve the agenda of one user; it exists to provide knowledge" as though not wanting people to be deadnamed is some sort of "agenda". In my opinion, Becky's deadname does absolutely nothing to increase the knowledge of the world. In an edit on December 19, 2019 you say "You cannot erase a person's history for political expediency. Sorry." I don't really understand this at all. Sure, a deadname is part of someone's history, but it's also unnecessary to bring up. There's nothing political about not deadnaming a person, it's really just basic decency. Deadnaming a trans person causes significant emotional distress, and purposely deadnaming someone multiple times without a reason for doing so is very upsetting.
Now, I'd like to explain why I think your deadnaming is aggressive. In this edit, you deadname her at the beginning of the article with "born [deadname]", again a sentence later with "credited as [deadname]" despite the issue of "being credited in what?", and no citation. You again deadname her in the "Early life" section, despite adding no new information that has not been written twice already. On January 20, 2020 someone removed many of those references, and left a message stating "I don't speak for Rebecca, but I found the existing wording emphasized her former name more than was necessary for the article." You then reply by undoing the edit, and responding "It’s almost as if she did most of her important work under her birth name...oh wait..." despite that being completely irrelevant to whether or not you were over-emphasizing hear deadname. I'm keeping in mind the "assume good faith" policy, but I do believe you overemphasize her deadname quite a bit.
I hope I've been able to adequately explain why people are upset and frustrated at your deadnaming, and provided a valid reason (through MOS:IDINFO) to remove many of those references. I hope you'll be able to see things through the eyes of a trans person, and understand that trans people not wanting to be deadnamed has absolutely nothing to do with politics, censorship, erasure of knowledge/information/history, etc. It's really just something that deeply hurts us, and it's basic decency to not deadname us any more than absolutely necessary.
I apologize for such a long wall of text, but I'm doing my best to be as expressive as possible. If you disagree with my views, perhaps we can use a dispute resolution, as we both seem to be passionate and stubborn on this issue, and the last thing I want (and I'm sure the last thing you want) is to be involved in a 6 year edit war. Thanks for reading :) 3nk1namshub ( talk) 04:08, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
You reverted edits removing the unnecessary deadnaming. You are just as responsible as the editor who originally wrote the material. 3nk1namshub ( talk) 17:03, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Reminder: this article i s covered by WP:BLP and the attendant Arbitration Committee sanctions. The way we handle deadnames is as follows:
The article on Wendy Carlos is a good model of how we handle this. Guy ( help!) 21:09, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Recently, Cullen328 has asked to hear what editors think about the current situation regarding Becky's deadname. To avoid any residual issues in the previous section, I've opted to start a new one.
As the page currently stands (as of this edit) I believe everything is appropriate. Becky's former nicknames are mentioned in the "Other names" box, and her deadname is mentioned in the "Early life" section. Anyone doing research on Becky's contributions to gaming should have absolutely no issues finding information about the work under her deadname, as I believe it should be obvious to any researcher to look things up in both names. Being trans myself, I would prefer her deadname be mentioned only in a footnote (per MOS:IDINFO recommendation 2), making it less visible for casual readers (who will already see that Becky is trans, and have no need to find her deadname), yet still readily available for researchers. However, as I am a new editor, I will of course defer to more experienced editors regarding the MOS. TL;DR I take very little issue with the article's current naming (I don't know how to word this, apologies if you don't understand), and would be happy if it stayed the way it is. 3nk1namshub ( talk) 21:04, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
I actually see no problem with Indrian'e edits. This individual was known by their former name from the start of their career, 1980 to 2005 when they transitioned. From the time of their transition onward, they would be notable under their new name. This article doesn't even mention that name. Our notability guideline states this has to be done. That said, should it be done every time their new name is mentioned? No way. Once or twice is fine. (Not in a row either! :) ). Doing this is in keeping with the notability guidelines, sticking with what reliable sources say and is writing the article neutrally. I would move that this individuals name be mentioned at least once anywhere in the 1980 to 2004 time line, thereafter, their new name, as long as it's reliably sourced and they meet notability guidelines, is fine.
I'm going to address something before someone slings this at me. I'm not transphobic by any means, I worked with a supervisor that transitioned and once the transition occurred, I addressed them with their preferred name and pronoun and was quick to correct anyone that didn't. (I was known as an SOB for doing so, but I didn't care! ). W.K.W.W.K... Toss a coin to the witcher, ye valley of plenty 16:33, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Around 2003, Heineman began transitioning to a woman 77.191.160.35 ( talk) 20:02, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
To head off another completely pointless name edit war on this page, here is the full story of the Burger nickname as told by Heinemann to Matt Barton. See Gamasutra for the full interview.
I've been holding off on this question for awhile, but I have to know. How'd you get to be called "Burger"?
RH: Remember when I told you I was flat broke? When we founded Interplay, we didn't pay ourselves much. We were starving. When I was at Boone Corporation, I was being paid twelve thousand a year. Slave wages. I was a kid; I didn't know any better. My entire life was get up, go to work, work until I'm too tired, sleep, repeat. Didn't have time for cooking, and I didn't have any money.
There was a place called Hamburger Stand. They sold 29 cent hamburgers. Since I spent most of my time at the office, I didn't want to walk over, buy a burger, and walk back.
So I'd buy a bag of twenty of them. Blow six bucks, get twenty burgers, go to my office, and put them in a drawer. I was too cheap to buy a refrigerator -- well, really too broke. Every so often I'd open the drawer and eat a burger.
I had an office mate who was a health food nut, constantly complaining about how I should eat right, exercise like he did. One day I was working all through the night. I didn't leave. It's the morning, and he comes in, sits across from me. I'm still working.
Around 3 p.m., I'm done. Burger time! I pull open the drawer, reach in, put the bag down, grab a burger, and start munching. Wasn't thinking anything about it. That's when my co-worker looks at me, looks back, looks at me -- and it dawns on him that the bag has been there for who knows how long. Those burgers are pretty firm.
He just loses it. He jumps up, his chair goes flying, he goes, "That burger is insane! That burger is insane!" He runs out. I'm sitting there like, "What's with him? Whatever." Then later Brian Fargo comes in and asks what I did to him. I didn't do anything. What's going on? My co-worker had gone to the restroom and tossed his cookies. That's how disgusted he was.
So then, the rumor started. "Did you eat any burgers lately?" So they started calling me Burger. I played along. "Okay, I'll get a burger. I'll eat a burger." Later on, unbeknownst to anybody, I had an issue with the name I was given at birth. So I would rather be called Burger than by that birth name. "Just call me burger." For the next twenty years, that was my name. Everybody called me Burger. Now my name is Becky. I finally shed the name Burger.
So yeah, Burger was a standalone nickname. Indrian ( talk) 17:30, 2 December 2020 (UTC)