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In the article article is written although some purists insist that it must contain exactly 12 items. The French article says traditional recipes consist of 24-27 ingredients (la recette traditionnelle du ras el hanout varie entre 24 et 27 ingrédients), the Germans say etwa 25 verschiedene Gewürze and our Spanish colleagues say una mezcla de hierbas y especias (entre 4 y 30). The article definitely misses a source for the statement about the purists. Anyone who can help? Thanks, RonnieV ( talk) 08:43, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately, in UK English this expression, used as an adjective, is universally understood to refer to pornographic publications, as that is where they are kept in newsagents' shops. I followed the link for an explanation and was pleased to discover that it means something quite different in the world of US cocktail bars. Not sure exactly how to accommodate the different shades of meaning, as the explanation of the etymology clearly will help the US reader a good deal, while possibly confusing the UK reader. Sjwells53 ( talk) 20:47, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
@ AZSH: When you revert someone's edit, make sure you only revert the part you're objecting to in the edit summary. Obliterating everything and reintroducing WP:OR in the process is unhelpful at best.
Since you seem to have an issue with the part that says "it is particular to Algeria" (even though it's attributed to a reliable source that, unlike the others, is written by someone who teaches food studies in a university), I have removed both it and the the part that precedes it. That way, all is left is neutral content. M.Bitton ( talk) 23:42, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
The mix is generally associated...should be kept ?
north africa includes the countries cited plus those that are not.That's exactly why I'm opposed to it's use. It's too broad a term that includes countries such as Libya, Egypt, Mauritania and even Sudan; countries that have no history of using Ras al-Hanout in their cuisine. The reliable source that we have and the only one that goes into details about the spice mix defines Ras al-Hanut as "a spice mix found in varying forms in Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco." [2] I have yet to understand why you want to deviate from this.
lybians for example use it also.Just because a chef mentioned Libya in passing doesn't mean that they do. You will struggle to find a single Libyan authentic recipe that calls for its use. They have their own spice mix called "Hararat". The same goes for the Egyptians who uses a couple of spice mixes, namely Dukkah and Buharat.
i don't see any advertisement. the more pictures there are in an article the better.The picture clearly advertises the French company "Mosaique". The caption is also WP:OR as the packet doesn't say where the content is from and on their website, they state that their spices come from India and Spain. [3]
With regard to the intro:
In Lybia and Mauritania they use it like I said, and I know that very well.
No, they don't. Like I said, you won't find a single authentic recipe of theirs that calls for its use.
even in Egypt it's starting to be used.
In a globalised world, it's "starting to be used" everywhere, just like everything else; nonetheless, there are only three countries in which it's considered a major spice mix, namely Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco ("The Oxford Companion to Food"
[2] and "The new Larousse gastronomique: the encyclopedia of food, wine & cookery"
[5] do not associate it with any other country).
With regard to the image:
Look at this random article in WP(juice) and look at the pictures used there.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The
Garam masala article is a good example on how it should be done.
I also don't consider it an ad because there is no phone number, no website, no adress etc.
1) It took me less than 10 seconds to find their website. 2) There's nothing special about that company for it to be advertised on the world's largest encyclopedia. 3) If we were to allow this, we'd be in no position to prevent other companies from plastering the article with images of their products.
For the origin of the spices of course some of them are from india or other parts of asia but the mix itself is Moroccan/North african.
The caption of the image is 100% baseless original research. 1) Nowhere in the packet or on their website
[3] does it mention where the mix is from, though it says all spices are sourced from India and Spain. 2) Their cheap and nasty mix, which contains curry powder and cornstarch/cornflour (farine de maïs), is not even representative of the proper ras el-hanout.
With regard to the last part:
Regarding the last part, I have already answered that. the passage is clear and sourced.
At the risk of repeating myself, there is another passage that is reliably sourced and that you removed because it contradicts the one you want to keep.
the mix is mainly related to Moroccan cuisine even though it spread to other north african ones.
That's a baseless assertion and the root cause of the issue. Nobody knowns or even claims to know the origin of the mix.
Rather than keep going around in circles, I'll be requesting a third opinion. M.Bitton ( talk) 23:45, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
3O Response: Hello! Non-binding opinions coming up.
It has been called the "most fundamental, defining flavor" of Moroccan cuisine and the country's "national spice blend." [7]
The line itself, however (about the mix being "generally associated with Morocco"), doesn't seem to be directly backed up by the source.In other words, the controversial statement is original research. It obviously needs to be removed.
@ AZSH: : You don't own anything here, So you keep edit warring and removing sources that you don't like uh ? In addition of baseless accusations of "trolling" ? Your edit removes sourced content, and as far as i can see, without any consensus. If you fail to provide a legit explanation for it, i'll reinstate the sourced version, per WP:VER.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 00:29, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
References
C.FredI have read all the discussion and I really don't feel there is a consensus. I also do not approve the modifications made by Mr.Bitton Jamaru25 ( talk) 16:30, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Although, at the moment I'm willing to support both listing the countries instead of using "North Africa", and removing the "association" line, I think we should hold off on both those changes until we've settled these two things:
@ AZSH: Are you okay with the replacement image? While I don't think there's a problem with the first one, for a mix with such variable components I think it would be good to show variety.
@ Wikaviani: Are you (if not M.Bitton) okay with the replacement line I suggested? I think it's a nice line, and gives us an impression of the spice's importance within Moroccan cuisine. (I'm assuming you want it, AZSH, but feel free to correct me.) ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 02:41, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
References
Why are you reverting what is legit? Ras el hanout is originated in Morocco, this country is the origin and also the name is originally Moroccan, the stupid part is that you're ignoring the origin and put NA instead?!! Are you alright with faking statements and falsifying the truth? Jamaru25 ( talk) 13:19, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
And you should not spread false informations in Wikipedia that will cause other people the confusion that's you should accept some facts that are real and global that doesn't need sources to prove it. Jamaru25 ( talk) 00:14, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:52, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
M.Bitton, you reverted my sourced addition identifying Morocco as the spice's origin. Your reason was As extraordinary claim as the one that describes it as "specific to Algeria"
. Your irrelevant comparison of it to another claim aside, what do you find extraordinary about it? That it has an origin? That we might have evidence of what its origin is? That the point of origin could possibly be in Morocco? In what way is it so extraordinary that your sense that it is so supersedes the source?
[1]
Others, what do you think?
References
Largoplazo ( talk) 17:00, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
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![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
In the article article is written although some purists insist that it must contain exactly 12 items. The French article says traditional recipes consist of 24-27 ingredients (la recette traditionnelle du ras el hanout varie entre 24 et 27 ingrédients), the Germans say etwa 25 verschiedene Gewürze and our Spanish colleagues say una mezcla de hierbas y especias (entre 4 y 30). The article definitely misses a source for the statement about the purists. Anyone who can help? Thanks, RonnieV ( talk) 08:43, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately, in UK English this expression, used as an adjective, is universally understood to refer to pornographic publications, as that is where they are kept in newsagents' shops. I followed the link for an explanation and was pleased to discover that it means something quite different in the world of US cocktail bars. Not sure exactly how to accommodate the different shades of meaning, as the explanation of the etymology clearly will help the US reader a good deal, while possibly confusing the UK reader. Sjwells53 ( talk) 20:47, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
@ AZSH: When you revert someone's edit, make sure you only revert the part you're objecting to in the edit summary. Obliterating everything and reintroducing WP:OR in the process is unhelpful at best.
Since you seem to have an issue with the part that says "it is particular to Algeria" (even though it's attributed to a reliable source that, unlike the others, is written by someone who teaches food studies in a university), I have removed both it and the the part that precedes it. That way, all is left is neutral content. M.Bitton ( talk) 23:42, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
The mix is generally associated...should be kept ?
north africa includes the countries cited plus those that are not.That's exactly why I'm opposed to it's use. It's too broad a term that includes countries such as Libya, Egypt, Mauritania and even Sudan; countries that have no history of using Ras al-Hanout in their cuisine. The reliable source that we have and the only one that goes into details about the spice mix defines Ras al-Hanut as "a spice mix found in varying forms in Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco." [2] I have yet to understand why you want to deviate from this.
lybians for example use it also.Just because a chef mentioned Libya in passing doesn't mean that they do. You will struggle to find a single Libyan authentic recipe that calls for its use. They have their own spice mix called "Hararat". The same goes for the Egyptians who uses a couple of spice mixes, namely Dukkah and Buharat.
i don't see any advertisement. the more pictures there are in an article the better.The picture clearly advertises the French company "Mosaique". The caption is also WP:OR as the packet doesn't say where the content is from and on their website, they state that their spices come from India and Spain. [3]
With regard to the intro:
In Lybia and Mauritania they use it like I said, and I know that very well.
No, they don't. Like I said, you won't find a single authentic recipe of theirs that calls for its use.
even in Egypt it's starting to be used.
In a globalised world, it's "starting to be used" everywhere, just like everything else; nonetheless, there are only three countries in which it's considered a major spice mix, namely Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco ("The Oxford Companion to Food"
[2] and "The new Larousse gastronomique: the encyclopedia of food, wine & cookery"
[5] do not associate it with any other country).
With regard to the image:
Look at this random article in WP(juice) and look at the pictures used there.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The
Garam masala article is a good example on how it should be done.
I also don't consider it an ad because there is no phone number, no website, no adress etc.
1) It took me less than 10 seconds to find their website. 2) There's nothing special about that company for it to be advertised on the world's largest encyclopedia. 3) If we were to allow this, we'd be in no position to prevent other companies from plastering the article with images of their products.
For the origin of the spices of course some of them are from india or other parts of asia but the mix itself is Moroccan/North african.
The caption of the image is 100% baseless original research. 1) Nowhere in the packet or on their website
[3] does it mention where the mix is from, though it says all spices are sourced from India and Spain. 2) Their cheap and nasty mix, which contains curry powder and cornstarch/cornflour (farine de maïs), is not even representative of the proper ras el-hanout.
With regard to the last part:
Regarding the last part, I have already answered that. the passage is clear and sourced.
At the risk of repeating myself, there is another passage that is reliably sourced and that you removed because it contradicts the one you want to keep.
the mix is mainly related to Moroccan cuisine even though it spread to other north african ones.
That's a baseless assertion and the root cause of the issue. Nobody knowns or even claims to know the origin of the mix.
Rather than keep going around in circles, I'll be requesting a third opinion. M.Bitton ( talk) 23:45, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
3O Response: Hello! Non-binding opinions coming up.
It has been called the "most fundamental, defining flavor" of Moroccan cuisine and the country's "national spice blend." [7]
The line itself, however (about the mix being "generally associated with Morocco"), doesn't seem to be directly backed up by the source.In other words, the controversial statement is original research. It obviously needs to be removed.
@ AZSH: : You don't own anything here, So you keep edit warring and removing sources that you don't like uh ? In addition of baseless accusations of "trolling" ? Your edit removes sourced content, and as far as i can see, without any consensus. If you fail to provide a legit explanation for it, i'll reinstate the sourced version, per WP:VER.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 00:29, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
References
C.FredI have read all the discussion and I really don't feel there is a consensus. I also do not approve the modifications made by Mr.Bitton Jamaru25 ( talk) 16:30, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Although, at the moment I'm willing to support both listing the countries instead of using "North Africa", and removing the "association" line, I think we should hold off on both those changes until we've settled these two things:
@ AZSH: Are you okay with the replacement image? While I don't think there's a problem with the first one, for a mix with such variable components I think it would be good to show variety.
@ Wikaviani: Are you (if not M.Bitton) okay with the replacement line I suggested? I think it's a nice line, and gives us an impression of the spice's importance within Moroccan cuisine. (I'm assuming you want it, AZSH, but feel free to correct me.) ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 02:41, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
References
Why are you reverting what is legit? Ras el hanout is originated in Morocco, this country is the origin and also the name is originally Moroccan, the stupid part is that you're ignoring the origin and put NA instead?!! Are you alright with faking statements and falsifying the truth? Jamaru25 ( talk) 13:19, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
And you should not spread false informations in Wikipedia that will cause other people the confusion that's you should accept some facts that are real and global that doesn't need sources to prove it. Jamaru25 ( talk) 00:14, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:52, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
M.Bitton, you reverted my sourced addition identifying Morocco as the spice's origin. Your reason was As extraordinary claim as the one that describes it as "specific to Algeria"
. Your irrelevant comparison of it to another claim aside, what do you find extraordinary about it? That it has an origin? That we might have evidence of what its origin is? That the point of origin could possibly be in Morocco? In what way is it so extraordinary that your sense that it is so supersedes the source?
[1]
Others, what do you think?
References
Largoplazo ( talk) 17:00, 7 February 2024 (UTC)