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This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
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While I don't want to distract from the conversation above with respect to which pronouns to use in the article, there was one additional thing that became clear when reading The Last Word. Sexuality. Specifically, Quentin described themselves as being asexual, having been celibate from age thirty. In addition Quentin rejected the label of homosexual, stating I no longer see myself as a homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandable used to describe me.
At present we do not mention this at all in the article, however I think it is important that we include it. As it does not look like it would fit into any of the existing sections in the article, we may wish to incorporate a new section, where we can discuss both Quentin's sexuality and gender identity. I'm not sure how to phrase it, but would like to judge support for/against before embarking upon it.
Sideswipe9th (
talk)
21:19, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Hi Roxy. I'm assuming when you said Already in cats that exclude these
in
this edit summary, you're referring to the English Male set of categories? If so, as Quentin was transgender, as is discussed in the article lead and body as cited to his last published work, why did you not remove the other set instead?
Sideswipe9th (
talk)
00:33, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources.While the work was published posthumously, it still represents Quentin's latest expressed gender self-identification. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 00:58, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
deliberately misunderstandingyou is a monumental failure of WP:AGF. I've already asked you to clarify your comments, because the point you are trying to make is fundamentally not clear. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 03:07, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Open an RFC on the matter. Best way to solve a content dispute. GoodDay ( talk) 01:55, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources.That MOS page also has a list of community discussions, so it's easy to review and see the broad community consensus. Other sources not using their latest expressed gender identity isn't an out. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 21:28, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
Crisp's only comments about being trans are in the book, not in things said in public. And Crisp continued to be visible and prominent in public until fairly late in life.The answer to that is complex. The revelation, for lack of a better word, to Crisp that there was a word (transgender) for the feelings they had and had hidden since they were a child came very late in life. While an exact date is not in the text, it happened sometime around Crisp's ninetieth birthday. Crisp died no more than 11 months later. The book The Last Word was written over the course of two years, from 1997 to July 1999. Because of Crisp's physical health issues at the time, having lost the use of their left hand leaving them unable to use a typewriter or computer, the book was written as a series of recordings between Quentin and Philip Ward. According to the afterword in the book, Crisp's death happened shortly after arrival in England as they were about to embark upon a tour of their show. There are to my knowledge no reports as to what Crisp would have said in those shows, nor what was said in the shows delivered during the December 1998 run of the show in New York.
it was explained to himto be in any way a fair representation of what Crisp actually said in the book.
they are only <gay/lesbian/trans/non-binary/etc> because it was explained to them, both on and off wiki. Most often it is said against someone who comes out as one or more of the LGBT+ identities later in life, and is said almost exclusively by heterosexual cisgendered individuals, typically from a position of ignorance. The individuals who say such things typically cannot and do not understand what it is like to know that you are different in some way, but be entirely unable to express the why or how for that difference. While it is becoming less of an issue as societal attitudes to LGBT+ identities become more relaxed, and media portrayals of LGBT+ individuals become more sympathetic and multi-dimensional, it is still a fact that many LGBT+ individuals are in the closet because they lack the vocabulary to understand and express fundamental aspects of their personhood. This is also true by the way, for people with late in life diagnoses of autism, ADHD, dyslexia, or any other Neurodiversity. When someone is told
Hey, do you know what X means? Cause I think that fits you.and then they later go on to embrace that identity, they aren't that identity because it was explained to them. They were always that identity, they simply lacked the vocabulary to express it. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 21:27, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
Comment - I have been following this discussion for a long time and contributing to it only little, because I find the case difficult (and not easily sorted out by UPPERCASE).
What I am ready to say, is that I think there is a very strong case for the use of they/them pronouns in this article - not because Crisp ever expressed a pronoun preference of any kind, to my knowledge, but because there are strong objections to the use of masculine and feminine pronouns, and the uncertainty about which gendered pronouns might be "better", or more compliant with policy, seems not to be resolvable. We are fortunate to have, in English, an appropriate set of pronouns for persons whose gender is not known, or (as in this case) not readily and authoritatively defined. Newimpartial ( talk) 22:05, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
Since it was mentioned. I'd recommend 'not' using the pronouns "they/them" & instead use the surname of the person. That's if the pronouns "he/him", are being rejected. GoodDay ( talk) 01:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
As is common with abridged extracts in this form, there are some minor differences throughout, primarily word substitutions that don't change the meaning of the underlying sentence. I won't cover these in detail as they're pretty much irrelevant unless we're wanting to quote from the exact text of the book in the article.
There are also a number of paragraphs that have been omitted. To avoid a copyvio I'll be paraphrasing them, and I'll include brief quotations from the PinkNews extract so you know where these fit in with the text that exists. As only the first excerpt contains content from the chapter where Crisp exclusively talks about their gender identity, I'll only include paraphrases of the missing paragraphs for it. If there is interest however I can summarise the missing paragraphs from the other excerpts.
This excerpt covers the content from chapter 1 of the book, pages 1 to 8. Pages 9-17 are not included.
A paragraph with a suggestion from Crisp that everyone should write a book in their life, and if that is the only book they write it should be about themselves. Inserted between paragraph ending A chance for me to have the last word.
and beginning Where then should I begin?
.
A paragraph on Quentin's experiences writing The Naked Civil Servant, with quotations from their literary agent that Quentin should not write too much about their childhood. Inserted after paragraph ending I'll begin with my truth, at the very beginning
.
A paragraph and a sentence, with a quotation from an unnamed woman, discussing Crisp not receiving familial praise as a child. Inserted after the missing paragraph above.
A paragraph on how Crisp feels talking about their early life. Describing it akin to another reality due to how long ago it was. Crisp can't recall precise feelings, but can recall facts about places and people. Ends with statement on how a lack of sentimentality is one of the few masculine traits Crisp believes they possess. Inserted after the missing paragraph above.
A paragraph on Crisp's mother alternating between being supportive and unsupportive of Crisp's gender identity. Includes a mention of Crisp being bought ballet shoes, and attending a single dance class, believing it to be a sign of things to come
. Inserted after paragraph ending So let us begin this book with that daydream.
A paragraph on how Crisp attended a mixed school (for girls and boys). Mentions how every day the boys would go out to play football (soccer for the American's among us), and refuse to play. Inserted after the last missing paragraph.
A paragraph on how Crisp never thought they were gay. Crisp never heard the world homosexual until they were 19 or 20. Crisp did know they were different from others around them, and wasn't worried about this. Inserted before the paragraph beginning I remember playing a game of make-believe when I was nine or ten
A brief paragraph about a quotation from
Jan Morris, describing the quotation as a wonderful remark
. The quotation from Morris read It was never a question of sex. It was a question of gender.
Inserted after the paragraph ending I never dit it, and that gave way to the image that I have
.
A follow-up paragraph, further extolling upon how wonderful the quotation from Morris was. Inserted after the last missing paragraph.
A paragraph on the downside to being open about what we now call gender affirming surgery. How being open can result in certain comments, and people being unable to look at any part of the body except the face for fear of being seen to be examining too closely a trans person's body. Inserted after the last missing paragraph.
A paragraph on how no-one can ask about the functionality of one's genitalia after gender affirming surgery. And how because they cannot ask, it results in a form of social ostracisation. Inserted after the last missing paragraph.
I would not be able to do justice in paraphrasing all of the content from pages 9-17. There's a lot of information in those pages, including how Crisp's gender identity informed their sexuality with particular emphasis on the disposition of men to whom Crisp was attracted to, and how in hindsight Crisp may have been happier being celibate in a monastery than degrading [themself] before strangers as [they] did.
This excerpt covers content from chapter 16 of the book, pages 183-189. Pages 190-196 are not included.
This excerpt covers content from chapter 17 of the book, pages 198-204. Pages 205-206 are not included.
And that's it. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 16:17, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
I don’t like nature, I like people, chiefly women.(I've considered whether it argues against having had a gay attraction to men, but I think, instead, that the "liking" is more about feeling kinship.) It comes in a paragraph that is mostly about how Crisp would have much preferred to have lived as "a middle-class woman". There's also the clear interest in Chapter 1 in gender surgery; it makes no difference for our purposes whether Crisp considered the surgery to be worth it or not. Take that with all the similar statements in Chapter 1, and there's a pretty clear latest expression of gender identity as trans. And Crisp's extensive discussion of failing health reassures me that this was, in fact, the latest expression, and that there was little likelihood of anything later or anything that was simultaneous and different.
Of course, I never thought I was gay. I never heard the word homosexual until I was about nineteen or twenty, but I knoew I was different from other people because they made it perfectly obviousy to me. I wasn't worried by it nor did I think, "What shall I do to seem more like a real person?" Somehow I accepted my fate.. There are also two related sentences later in the chapter, not in the excerpt which read
I actually preferred sex with these 'straight' men as it seemed to me to justify my existence. It made me feel like the real woman I was in my head.and
And I can't remember who was the first or where or why, but the idea behind it all was to justify my existence. I had thought to prove myself I was really a woman by having sex with a man
For one thing, I see Crisp making a clear and emphatic point about being asexualI very much agree with this. While others may have described Crisp as a gay man, Crisp themselves was quite emphatic as you say about being asexual, certainly past the age of 30.
argues against gay sex as a male being something that Crisp would have regarded as definingI'd be interested in your thoughts on the
'straight' menand
prove myselfquotations above in answer 2 against this thought.
I don’t like nature, I like people, chiefly women.I would be inclined to read this in terms of kinship. Crisp's views on sex in Chapter 1 were heavily based upon the sense of affirmation gained from it. By having sex with
'straight' men, it was in a way affirming Crisp's gender identity as a woman. Things like that are immensely emotionally powerful to a trans person, even or perhaps especially when they do not have the vocabulary to express that they are trans. Other than the intense yearning to be a woman, from what has been written I do not think Crisp was ever attracted to women, which is again something very commonly written about in general trans discourse on social media.
and that there was little likelihood of anything later or anything that was simultaneous and differentSpeaking purely speculatively, I can't help but wonder how different this conversation and others would have gone had Crisp lived another 1 to 5 years. As the situation stands, I would agree that this is a clear latest expression of their gender identity. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 20:56, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Roxy the dog: please self-revert this removal of the categories. We discussed this thoroughly in the sections above back in May 2022. There is a rough consensus from that time that Crisp was transgender, and that the categories are appropriate. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 22:05, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
it was explained to himto not be a fair representation of the content of the book. The current use of it in the article has lead to enough confusion that one editor added the trans man categories. I think, given what Crisp has written and how clearly they put forward their points on their gender identity in the book, we should be clearer in the article that in the final year or so of their life they came to the realisation that they were a trans woman.
...Crisp wrote in an autobiography that he eventually came to feel that he was "not really homosexual", but was transgender- Works for me! Do we want to specify trans woman here? In the chapter on Crisp's gender identity, they said a lot about their internal perception was that they were a woman. For example
I actually preferred sex with these 'straight' men as it seemed to me to justify my existence. It made me feel like the real woman I was in my head.
I don't recollect anywhere where he says that this was about how people referred to himAt the risk of going a bit into OR territory, based on sentence about sex with straight men, you could reasonably extrapolate that Crisp would have found being referred to as a woman with she/her pronouns affirming of their gender. But in lack of reliable sources that's a tough sell to actually implement as she/her pronouns in the article. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 22:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
@ StrangeBanana I noticed you introduced a new section Gender Identity with quotations and claims. I have reviewed the sources thoroughly and cannot find support. You must cite the book and page where Crisp states specifically your claim: "At the age of 90 Crisp wrote that he had 'accepted' that he was transgender." The source provided: [2] does neither. Furthermore, please time stamp the YouTube clip for direct reference. As well, the quote that you have provided does not support the claim that Crisp saw himself as a transgender woman. This entire section seems motive driven to introduce something that other sources do not back. I am bringing the topic here rather than reverting the entry so that better, and multiple, sources can be brought forth to better back the initial claim. At present, the 2 quotes do not. Maineartists ( talk) 23:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
![]() Archives ( Index) |
While I don't want to distract from the conversation above with respect to which pronouns to use in the article, there was one additional thing that became clear when reading The Last Word. Sexuality. Specifically, Quentin described themselves as being asexual, having been celibate from age thirty. In addition Quentin rejected the label of homosexual, stating I no longer see myself as a homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandable used to describe me.
At present we do not mention this at all in the article, however I think it is important that we include it. As it does not look like it would fit into any of the existing sections in the article, we may wish to incorporate a new section, where we can discuss both Quentin's sexuality and gender identity. I'm not sure how to phrase it, but would like to judge support for/against before embarking upon it.
Sideswipe9th (
talk)
21:19, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Hi Roxy. I'm assuming when you said Already in cats that exclude these
in
this edit summary, you're referring to the English Male set of categories? If so, as Quentin was transgender, as is discussed in the article lead and body as cited to his last published work, why did you not remove the other set instead?
Sideswipe9th (
talk)
00:33, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources.While the work was published posthumously, it still represents Quentin's latest expressed gender self-identification. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 00:58, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
deliberately misunderstandingyou is a monumental failure of WP:AGF. I've already asked you to clarify your comments, because the point you are trying to make is fundamentally not clear. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 03:07, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Open an RFC on the matter. Best way to solve a content dispute. GoodDay ( talk) 01:55, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources.That MOS page also has a list of community discussions, so it's easy to review and see the broad community consensus. Other sources not using their latest expressed gender identity isn't an out. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 21:28, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
Crisp's only comments about being trans are in the book, not in things said in public. And Crisp continued to be visible and prominent in public until fairly late in life.The answer to that is complex. The revelation, for lack of a better word, to Crisp that there was a word (transgender) for the feelings they had and had hidden since they were a child came very late in life. While an exact date is not in the text, it happened sometime around Crisp's ninetieth birthday. Crisp died no more than 11 months later. The book The Last Word was written over the course of two years, from 1997 to July 1999. Because of Crisp's physical health issues at the time, having lost the use of their left hand leaving them unable to use a typewriter or computer, the book was written as a series of recordings between Quentin and Philip Ward. According to the afterword in the book, Crisp's death happened shortly after arrival in England as they were about to embark upon a tour of their show. There are to my knowledge no reports as to what Crisp would have said in those shows, nor what was said in the shows delivered during the December 1998 run of the show in New York.
it was explained to himto be in any way a fair representation of what Crisp actually said in the book.
they are only <gay/lesbian/trans/non-binary/etc> because it was explained to them, both on and off wiki. Most often it is said against someone who comes out as one or more of the LGBT+ identities later in life, and is said almost exclusively by heterosexual cisgendered individuals, typically from a position of ignorance. The individuals who say such things typically cannot and do not understand what it is like to know that you are different in some way, but be entirely unable to express the why or how for that difference. While it is becoming less of an issue as societal attitudes to LGBT+ identities become more relaxed, and media portrayals of LGBT+ individuals become more sympathetic and multi-dimensional, it is still a fact that many LGBT+ individuals are in the closet because they lack the vocabulary to understand and express fundamental aspects of their personhood. This is also true by the way, for people with late in life diagnoses of autism, ADHD, dyslexia, or any other Neurodiversity. When someone is told
Hey, do you know what X means? Cause I think that fits you.and then they later go on to embrace that identity, they aren't that identity because it was explained to them. They were always that identity, they simply lacked the vocabulary to express it. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 21:27, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
Comment - I have been following this discussion for a long time and contributing to it only little, because I find the case difficult (and not easily sorted out by UPPERCASE).
What I am ready to say, is that I think there is a very strong case for the use of they/them pronouns in this article - not because Crisp ever expressed a pronoun preference of any kind, to my knowledge, but because there are strong objections to the use of masculine and feminine pronouns, and the uncertainty about which gendered pronouns might be "better", or more compliant with policy, seems not to be resolvable. We are fortunate to have, in English, an appropriate set of pronouns for persons whose gender is not known, or (as in this case) not readily and authoritatively defined. Newimpartial ( talk) 22:05, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
Since it was mentioned. I'd recommend 'not' using the pronouns "they/them" & instead use the surname of the person. That's if the pronouns "he/him", are being rejected. GoodDay ( talk) 01:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
As is common with abridged extracts in this form, there are some minor differences throughout, primarily word substitutions that don't change the meaning of the underlying sentence. I won't cover these in detail as they're pretty much irrelevant unless we're wanting to quote from the exact text of the book in the article.
There are also a number of paragraphs that have been omitted. To avoid a copyvio I'll be paraphrasing them, and I'll include brief quotations from the PinkNews extract so you know where these fit in with the text that exists. As only the first excerpt contains content from the chapter where Crisp exclusively talks about their gender identity, I'll only include paraphrases of the missing paragraphs for it. If there is interest however I can summarise the missing paragraphs from the other excerpts.
This excerpt covers the content from chapter 1 of the book, pages 1 to 8. Pages 9-17 are not included.
A paragraph with a suggestion from Crisp that everyone should write a book in their life, and if that is the only book they write it should be about themselves. Inserted between paragraph ending A chance for me to have the last word.
and beginning Where then should I begin?
.
A paragraph on Quentin's experiences writing The Naked Civil Servant, with quotations from their literary agent that Quentin should not write too much about their childhood. Inserted after paragraph ending I'll begin with my truth, at the very beginning
.
A paragraph and a sentence, with a quotation from an unnamed woman, discussing Crisp not receiving familial praise as a child. Inserted after the missing paragraph above.
A paragraph on how Crisp feels talking about their early life. Describing it akin to another reality due to how long ago it was. Crisp can't recall precise feelings, but can recall facts about places and people. Ends with statement on how a lack of sentimentality is one of the few masculine traits Crisp believes they possess. Inserted after the missing paragraph above.
A paragraph on Crisp's mother alternating between being supportive and unsupportive of Crisp's gender identity. Includes a mention of Crisp being bought ballet shoes, and attending a single dance class, believing it to be a sign of things to come
. Inserted after paragraph ending So let us begin this book with that daydream.
A paragraph on how Crisp attended a mixed school (for girls and boys). Mentions how every day the boys would go out to play football (soccer for the American's among us), and refuse to play. Inserted after the last missing paragraph.
A paragraph on how Crisp never thought they were gay. Crisp never heard the world homosexual until they were 19 or 20. Crisp did know they were different from others around them, and wasn't worried about this. Inserted before the paragraph beginning I remember playing a game of make-believe when I was nine or ten
A brief paragraph about a quotation from
Jan Morris, describing the quotation as a wonderful remark
. The quotation from Morris read It was never a question of sex. It was a question of gender.
Inserted after the paragraph ending I never dit it, and that gave way to the image that I have
.
A follow-up paragraph, further extolling upon how wonderful the quotation from Morris was. Inserted after the last missing paragraph.
A paragraph on the downside to being open about what we now call gender affirming surgery. How being open can result in certain comments, and people being unable to look at any part of the body except the face for fear of being seen to be examining too closely a trans person's body. Inserted after the last missing paragraph.
A paragraph on how no-one can ask about the functionality of one's genitalia after gender affirming surgery. And how because they cannot ask, it results in a form of social ostracisation. Inserted after the last missing paragraph.
I would not be able to do justice in paraphrasing all of the content from pages 9-17. There's a lot of information in those pages, including how Crisp's gender identity informed their sexuality with particular emphasis on the disposition of men to whom Crisp was attracted to, and how in hindsight Crisp may have been happier being celibate in a monastery than degrading [themself] before strangers as [they] did.
This excerpt covers content from chapter 16 of the book, pages 183-189. Pages 190-196 are not included.
This excerpt covers content from chapter 17 of the book, pages 198-204. Pages 205-206 are not included.
And that's it. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 16:17, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
I don’t like nature, I like people, chiefly women.(I've considered whether it argues against having had a gay attraction to men, but I think, instead, that the "liking" is more about feeling kinship.) It comes in a paragraph that is mostly about how Crisp would have much preferred to have lived as "a middle-class woman". There's also the clear interest in Chapter 1 in gender surgery; it makes no difference for our purposes whether Crisp considered the surgery to be worth it or not. Take that with all the similar statements in Chapter 1, and there's a pretty clear latest expression of gender identity as trans. And Crisp's extensive discussion of failing health reassures me that this was, in fact, the latest expression, and that there was little likelihood of anything later or anything that was simultaneous and different.
Of course, I never thought I was gay. I never heard the word homosexual until I was about nineteen or twenty, but I knoew I was different from other people because they made it perfectly obviousy to me. I wasn't worried by it nor did I think, "What shall I do to seem more like a real person?" Somehow I accepted my fate.. There are also two related sentences later in the chapter, not in the excerpt which read
I actually preferred sex with these 'straight' men as it seemed to me to justify my existence. It made me feel like the real woman I was in my head.and
And I can't remember who was the first or where or why, but the idea behind it all was to justify my existence. I had thought to prove myself I was really a woman by having sex with a man
For one thing, I see Crisp making a clear and emphatic point about being asexualI very much agree with this. While others may have described Crisp as a gay man, Crisp themselves was quite emphatic as you say about being asexual, certainly past the age of 30.
argues against gay sex as a male being something that Crisp would have regarded as definingI'd be interested in your thoughts on the
'straight' menand
prove myselfquotations above in answer 2 against this thought.
I don’t like nature, I like people, chiefly women.I would be inclined to read this in terms of kinship. Crisp's views on sex in Chapter 1 were heavily based upon the sense of affirmation gained from it. By having sex with
'straight' men, it was in a way affirming Crisp's gender identity as a woman. Things like that are immensely emotionally powerful to a trans person, even or perhaps especially when they do not have the vocabulary to express that they are trans. Other than the intense yearning to be a woman, from what has been written I do not think Crisp was ever attracted to women, which is again something very commonly written about in general trans discourse on social media.
and that there was little likelihood of anything later or anything that was simultaneous and differentSpeaking purely speculatively, I can't help but wonder how different this conversation and others would have gone had Crisp lived another 1 to 5 years. As the situation stands, I would agree that this is a clear latest expression of their gender identity. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 20:56, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Roxy the dog: please self-revert this removal of the categories. We discussed this thoroughly in the sections above back in May 2022. There is a rough consensus from that time that Crisp was transgender, and that the categories are appropriate. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 22:05, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
it was explained to himto not be a fair representation of the content of the book. The current use of it in the article has lead to enough confusion that one editor added the trans man categories. I think, given what Crisp has written and how clearly they put forward their points on their gender identity in the book, we should be clearer in the article that in the final year or so of their life they came to the realisation that they were a trans woman.
...Crisp wrote in an autobiography that he eventually came to feel that he was "not really homosexual", but was transgender- Works for me! Do we want to specify trans woman here? In the chapter on Crisp's gender identity, they said a lot about their internal perception was that they were a woman. For example
I actually preferred sex with these 'straight' men as it seemed to me to justify my existence. It made me feel like the real woman I was in my head.
I don't recollect anywhere where he says that this was about how people referred to himAt the risk of going a bit into OR territory, based on sentence about sex with straight men, you could reasonably extrapolate that Crisp would have found being referred to as a woman with she/her pronouns affirming of their gender. But in lack of reliable sources that's a tough sell to actually implement as she/her pronouns in the article. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 22:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
@ StrangeBanana I noticed you introduced a new section Gender Identity with quotations and claims. I have reviewed the sources thoroughly and cannot find support. You must cite the book and page where Crisp states specifically your claim: "At the age of 90 Crisp wrote that he had 'accepted' that he was transgender." The source provided: [2] does neither. Furthermore, please time stamp the YouTube clip for direct reference. As well, the quote that you have provided does not support the claim that Crisp saw himself as a transgender woman. This entire section seems motive driven to introduce something that other sources do not back. I am bringing the topic here rather than reverting the entry so that better, and multiple, sources can be brought forth to better back the initial claim. At present, the 2 quotes do not. Maineartists ( talk) 23:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)