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In this regard you face the question, "what is a Friend," and it seems to me, fail miserably. Those statements do not do justice. Let me explain. The argument that there are members of religious organizations that identify themselve with beliefs outside the teachings of their faith can't be used to identify what the faith is about. So a pork eating Jew, like an aethiest Friend is simply not practicing their faith in an honest manner. You will find hundreds or maybe even thousands of Friends that may say to you "I am an aethiest Friend," or "I am a Buddhist (insert whatever) Friend." However, the person is simply not being honest about what they believe. These are just people that become Friends that are tolerated by the greater community. They probably have become Friends to be able to make a social statement against war, or some other wrong which they feel. They are so far from daily Friend's practices that they simply cloud the vision of what is a far more coherent faith. Just because Friends tend to have great independence and autonomy, this article should not be focusing on opinions by some members that would be leading to the next split, unless it can be reported that way with authority.
You would not ever pick a random Jew or Catholic off the street and report their personal beliefs as tenents of those faiths.
Jackspratfacts ( talk) 15:01, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I would like to solicit opinions on this sentence, under the captioned section: "A decision is reached when the Meeting, as a whole, feels that the "way forward" has been discerned (also called 'coming to unity') or there is a consensus."
I do not know about other Yearly Meetings, but the Philadelphia Yearly Meeting, in Faith and Practice [1] clearly differentiates between consensus, which is a secular process, and a "sense of the meeting," which is the foundation of their decision-making, and a decidedly religious process. If this is consistent with other Yearly Meeings, I would propose the revised sentence to read: "A decision is reached when the Meeting, as a whole, feels that the "way forward" has been discerned, a process called 'coming to unity,' or 'finding a sense of the meeting.'"
Like2fly ( talk) 02:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
This long article really lacks a good, brief, synoptical introduction. Thanks, Maikel ( talk) 12:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm fact-tagging this - needs references. Is this actually done? I thought not, and the phrasing doesn't affirm that the IRS does this or gives any assurances. Tempshill ( talk) 05:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
There's no link in 'unprogrammed worship'... yet if you type that in the search bar, it redirects to that section in Religious Society of Friends. Mabye I'm just new, but this seems weird... could someone explain? -- Comfortably numb55 ( talk) 16:26, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
"unprogrammed" meetings but one would not say "Rochester Monthly Meeting is a waiting worship meeting." Asegalisaacson ( talk) 18:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
This text has been removed with adverse comment.
The editor's comment: inappropriate, arbitrary listing taken from an opinionated editorial critical of the unprogrammed tradition, POV and unsuitable.
The article referred to is without references but, in my view, makes a valid criticism of current unprogrammed Quaker attitudes. Perhaps we can use it to check whether there is "unprogrammed bias" in this article. Vernon White . . . Talk 10:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't we start a page on Convergent Friends sometime, or is that still a ways away in the making? I have the understanding that there is some sentiment among Friends to become a more united body of people, and that this sentiment has been through FGC and Conservative Friends a good bit. How is it going with FUM, and (maybe) EFI? —Preceding comment added by Fennasnogothrim ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
"After someone has spoken, it is expected that more than a few moments will pass in silence before further Ministry; there should be no spirit of debate."
Can somebody with a better understanding of it rephrase so it is clearer to what I think (?) it means? Is this to say that Quakers usually don't debate in the "thrust"-"counterthrust" kind of style, even when they disagree? How is it worked out then?
Cheers,
Ingolfson ( talk) 07:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
I have a concern about the way these terms are used in articles about the Society of Friends and our history. I have expressed these concerns in a posting of 2004 August 1 to what is now Archive01 of this talk page (and I thank the archive-maintainers for their diligence). Specifically "conservative" has been frequently attached to innovations in manners and practice among our society, innovations which look like backsliding towards the sort of manners and practice that early Friends felt called by Christ to resist in the 17th and 18th centuries. On the other hand "liberal" has been used to stigmatize those who seek to conserve the manners and practice deemed most likely to allow full expression of the Spirit of Christ in our Society by its founders. I'm not sure how to go about explaining this to people new to our faith and practice who are meeting it for the first time in Wikipedia articles, but I do pray such are not deceived. -- arkuat (talk) 05:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Though Quakers are now known for "pacifism" (in the democracies at least!), I once read (in an old history book from around the 1940's) that in their beginnings they were amongst the most fanatical of Cromwell's soldiers. The book is somewhere in the attic... but what's the convention for citing from History books? Can anyone find anything on the web (for the moment) to back this up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.86.243.150 ( talk) 16:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I came to this article looking for information regarding Quakers and pacifism and did not find anything at all. Only after very careful research in other articles did I realize that "Peace Testimony" had anything to do with pacifism, and then I came back here to put it all in context. To a school child looking up Quakers, this seems to be a topic not covered very clearly (or at all) in this otherwise very insightful article. "You have to know it to find it here." But perhaps my historical knowledge is shy of a couple of bricks. (My first wiki post!
Janet07810 (
talk)
16:14, 4 April 2010 (UTC)Janet07810)
I question having a Shakers link in the See Also section. I feel that it may serve to reinforce the confusion among the general public that Quakers and Shakers are in some way related. I would recommend deleting it. Chickpeana ( talk) 20:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for mailing me, my dear friend gorge, my own esprence in Africa is geting into another diffrent things, more espcially in Nigeria Ghanians copy them just like that,the group of society which colected money on my behalf , in one pentcostal church in Nigeria call C.p.m some enemies when,t and bribe them against me, pastors use them hands spread my name every where as person that get mental problem, castgeting with my with all manna of evil, just because of money ruth of all evil, look at what people are saying now, what thesame group of society did to my late father senur brother, them later turn back to me, abuseing thing up, Christainity brought to us from white why our own is diffrent more espcially in NIgeria, a,lots of money has being invested in there for work of GOd the leaders unit and shear it i, wounder how they resoninig there own thing, those it mean they know more than your people, in African to day theris some people God call to do his work, why can,t use the money to surported them, more than 12yrs now i,m into minisation work God , God provide his spiritiual blessings to me insted for them to give me suport they alowed satan to use them against me,what has not hapen befor hapen, because of there selfish desire,as they started with mistake my prayers is for them not end up with it, Thanks Mr irenaus chinedu Gods Grace, Nigeria writen in Ghana. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.210.43.77 ( talk) 08:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
"Quakerism is often termed a mystical religion because of its emphasis on the personal experience of God. But at first glance it differs from other mystical religions in at least two important ways. For one, Quaker mysticism is primarily group-oriented rather than focused on the individual."
While this seems a fair characterization of Quaker belief (to the extent that I understand it anyway), it also suggests a misunderstanding of other belief. I would point to eastern orthodox christianity (the second or third largest christian community, depending on how you count) as one that is both highly mystical in nature and highly communal as opposed to individualistic. In context then, this is not highly distinctive. So perhaps we really just mean 'as opposed to certain strains of protestant piety', or something like that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.81.251.201 ( talk) 19:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
The "See Also" section seems to have got rather out of hand (see " Shakers" comment above and other marginal articles:
Suggest that we current crop is deleted and, if necessary, more central references, not in the main text, added. Vernon White . . . Talk 07:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I hope I don't offend the fellow Wikipedians that worked on this article already, but I need to say it is not very informative, at least to someone that is looking for basic information on Quakers (and this is an encyclopedia after all). Let me list a few problems:
YvesJunqueira ( talk) 00:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Ceiriog ( talk) 18:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you both for improving this article. However, the addition of the Christianity sidebar is problematic, as are some of Ceiriog's changes to the first paragraph. Many Quakers in Britain today are non-Christian. I quite like the original sentence, "The Religious Society of Friends, members of which are commonly informally known as Quakers, was founded in England in the 17th century as a Christian religious denomination...", which is something most if not all Quakers can agree on. Mebden ( talk) 10:58, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, yes I see what you mean. On the other hand, the majority of Quakers worldwide would define themselves very much as Christian, and whether individual Quakers define themselves as Christian in Britain or not probably has more to do with what their own definition of Christianity is - for example see Mountain View Friends Meeting website http://www.mountainviewfriends.org/ "Friends are a Christian sect (or not) depending on your definition. Not, if you’re using the Nicene Creed (or any other) as your definition. Yes, if you mean that they take seriously many of the reported teachings of Jesus. Example: love your enemies.". I agree that the formulation "The Religious Society of Friends ... was founded as a Christian denomination" does get round this, but only by avoiding saying what the Society of Friends is at all. I think the initial sentence of the article should say what the Society of Friends is, not what it was. Also, whilst individual Friends in Britain may feel uncomfortable with the word "Christian", corporately the book of discipline of Britain Yearly Meeting is called "Quaker Faith and Practice: The Book of Christian discipline of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) in Britain" and many even of the most modern re-drafting of Britain Yearly Meeting's Advices and Queries make explicit reference to Christ and Christianity (admittedly less so than in previous editions of A&Q). To make out that the Society of Friends is not a Christian group would be inaccurate. I agree that maybe "The Religious Society of Friends is a Christian denomination" maybe does not sum this up perfectly... maybe "The Religious Society of Friends is a religious movement, regarded by many as a denomination of Christianity" would be more suitable. Ceiriog ( talk) 10:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
This becomes a (in American terms) a question of whether you are FGC (liberal) or FUM (mostly Christian) and harks back to some of the divides of the 19th century. Quakers were founded as a Christian group. Quakers today are a mixed bag, some (as in Ohio Yearly Meeting or East Africa Yearly Meeting) strongly Christian, others (as some members of FGC meetings) are not. The history is true: Fox, Nayler, Penn and the other first generation Quakers would have described themselves as Christian. Friends today do not always do so. When I joined Friends 20 years ago one of the questions raised was precisely this point on my Christianness. I was accepted into membership even though I made it quite clear that I did not believe in the special divinity of Jesus, which might be considered a hallmark of Christianity. I think the wording "...founded as a Christian group..." is more accurate than "...is a Christian sect..." If you want to add "...Many Quakers today consider themselves Christan, but some do not." that would probably clarify the point. Asegalisaacson ( talk) 18:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
I propose that the information regarding Friends and the abolition of slavery should go into a separate article - it is interesting, however information in this much detail probably doesn't belong in a general article on the Society of Friends. Ceiriog ( talk) 12:47, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Given that some do not agree that the religious society of friends is a christian movement, and symbols such as the cross are not regularly used in quaker meetings I have removed the christian side bar that was recently added to the article. I don't have a problem with it being part of the christianity series on wikipedia, but I think that the way that the sidebar is so prominently placed at the head of the article and the use of the symbol of the cross is misleading. Jenafalt ( talk) 09:24, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
I actually came here to try to find out why there was no Christian sidebar. I certainly understand the reasons for removing it, but Quakerism IS a Christian religion...a fact that many Americans are unaware of (I say this from an unfortunate amount of personal experience). I was raised and am an active Quaker; I also, along with many Quakers, eschew traditional Christian symbols.
Still, I think the symbol of the cross would not be so misleading as it's removal would continue the confusion over just what Quakerism is...the shortest answer being "A Christian faith." I'm certainly not going to demand, or even ask, for the sidebar to be put back, but I would like to see a discussion concerning its removal.
Alexander.lewis@trinity.edu ( talk) 03:16, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Certain beliefs or practices, which fit into a group of beliefs and practices which people consider "Christian", are necessary for a group of people to all believe for that group of people to be entirely Christian. Not all Quakers hold such beliefs or practices. Therefore, not all Quakers are Christian.
In Quakerism, there is a subset of people who consider themselves Christian, but there are many who do not. I do not think the "Christian series" sidebar should be at the top of the article, but perhaps in the section about Christianity.
I think that the majority of Americans who know about Quakerism mistakenly assume that Quakerism is entirely Christian. They read about it in history textbooks when they read about the Civil War, and are told that Quakers were basically Christian - which they were - but do not know that is not true anymore.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, read about Friends General Conference and nontheist Friends. Calling a group of people who, some are Protestant Christian, some are Catholic, some are Buddhist, some are Muslim, some are atheist, some are Taoist, all Christians is a big mistake. Do a bit more research, please.
This is not an article about Evangelical Friends International or Friends United Meeting, specifically. You may want to put Christianity series bars on those.
If this was about a group that could be exclusively considered Christian, I would not object. However, you cannot write fully about the history of Quakerism without including the Hicksite branch, which turned non-Christian in/by the 20th Century. You cannot write fully about the modern existence of Quakerism without including Friends General Conference, which is not entirely Christian.
There may be a time in the future when I will lift this objection - if the Convergent Friends movement becomes what it aspires to be. However, most Christians would likely find the end-product of that movement impossible to relate to Christianity as they know it.
Anyway, that's my opinion. If you have questions about any part, please ask.
Fennasnogothrim ( talk) 16:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
From my experience attending unprogrammed meetings in England, Costa Rica, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Texas, New Mexico, and Georgia, any sort of Christian sermonizing or biblical quotation in meeting is just Not Done. (Or at least on the very rare occasions when it is, mass eye-rolling, frowns and even grimaces ensue.)
There is a deep theological divide between the programmed and the programmed Meetings. Most members of unprogrammed meetings have never been to a programmed meeting. Most cities that have a Quaker meeting have only an unprogrammed meeting. I'm not entirely convinced at a gut level that these programmed meetings actually exist, and I think that most members of unprogrammed meetings share a similar sense. That is not just because most members of the unprogrammed meetings are convinced Quakers, either - the same is true of birthright Quakers. When my father attended 1st day school in Bucks County in the '50s the class visited all the local religious denominations in turn over the course of a season - except the programmed meeting. The idea of pastors and evangelizing seems quite un-Quaker to the unprogrammed sensibility - might as well become a Baptist, almost. (Fighting words :)...I kid - though only a little.) Enon ( talk) 05:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the edits to the introductory paragraph over the past few years, it seems that there are two main schools of thought. The first is to communicate in that paragraph (or via a side-bar) that Quakerism is a Christian denomination; the second, to which I used to belong, is to speak more about what Quakerism was than is. The problem with the first approach is obvious (see above). The problem with the second, I've come to realize, is that well-meaning readers click the Edit button and 'correct' the perceived omission that Quakerism is a Christian denomination - they might add strong Christian language, or a side bar. This is an ongoing pendulum. I think to stop it, the modern relationship to Christian denominations should be mentioned at the outset. I recently tried editing to say of the Society, "Today many but not all of its members, who are known as Friends or Quakers, consider it to be a Christian denomination." However, Ceiriog found my wording 'misleading' and undid it. Ideally we might replace my wording with a statistic from some survey indicating the size of the liberal Quaker minority, but, lacking that, I can't see a better approach. In summary, it's arguably impractical (given the nature of Wikipedia) to ignore in the first paragraph the modern relationship with Christian denominations. Mebden ( talk) 09:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I think a lot of the problems in this article (not just in the case of "Is Quakerism a Christian denomination", but throughout the article) comes from attempting to write one article which encompasses "The Religious Society of Friends" in all its different forms, over the last 350 years and all over the world. There are hugely divergent beliefs, practices, etc, as well as large perceptions in differences or differences in language used. This article makes the false assumption that there is one "Society", whereas in fact there is no single "The Religious Society of Friends" - there are a diverse range of individually independent yearly meetings, each of whom are linked only in that they can trace some kind of historical link to George Fox's dissent from the Church of England in the mid-seventeenth century. I have previously several times proposed splitting the article by having a fairly basic and all-inclusive short summary of Quakers on the "Religious Society of Friends" page, explaining the diverse range of organisations which share the "Quaker" umbrella, and then having separate pages for different yearly meetings/conferences of meetings (eg Britain Yearly Meeting, Friends General Conference, Friends United Meeting, Evangelical Friends Church International, etc. Numerically, the largest proportion of Friends are in the evangelical grouping, however to say that "The Religious Society of Friends" is an evangelical organisation would be clearly incorrect. The same goes all the way through the article - eg the section on marriage is specific to certain yearly meetings - the way a marriage is conducted in a Kenyan evangelical Friends' Church is nothing like the way a marriage is conducted in a British Friends' meeting. Again, homosexuality is something which different yearly meetings would consider very differently (eg contrast Uganda Yearly Meeting in 2007 with Britain Yearly Meeting in 2009). Attempting to write an article which encompasses all of these views is pretty much impossible, or ends up with an incredibly vague or incredibly long and convoluted article which does not really encompass the view of any single Quaker body. Its like trying to write an article about "Christianity" which encompasses all forms of Christianity from Quakers to Anglicans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moravians, Catholics, Evangelicals, Latter Day Saints, etc - it would be pretty difficult to write a single article which covered all that, so sensibly there are separate articles about each individual church. I think it would be much better to split the "Religious Society of Friends" article to articles on each separate Yearly Meeting or group of yearly meetings - an article on Britain Yearly Meeting or Friends General Conference could much more accurately say that there are some Friends who do not identify themselves as Christians in the opening line. I do not believe that an article which purports to be about all Quakers worldwide can really say this in the opening sentence. Ceiriog ( talk) 20:19, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the merge tag from the "Beliefs and testimonies" section. The editor adding the tag has not attempted to justify his/her proposal here, and in my view it is an obvious non-starter. Each of the "testimony" articles is worth a major article in its own right, and this article is already too large.
I am also removing the corresponding tags from the other articles.
-- NSH001 ( talk) 07:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I've visited and even made contributions to this article on occasions, and today, I've re-read some of it.
This is obviously a long-running article and there has been a lot of work put into it.
I have to say that the article has a unmistakable liberal quaker bias, both in its tone, and many of the assumptions it makes.
For example, (and I'm not intending to start a discussion on this, or an other point), a sentence in the first paragraph reads, "It is based on the idea that individuals can have a personal relationship with the divine without the need for intermediaries, such as priests, rituals or sacraments." This is essentially a modern liberal view of the basis of Quakerism, and it is not a view I have personally encountered in historical Quaker literature.
I have no objection to such views appearing in this article, as long as authors make it clear that they are representing a particular point of view within their own tradition. Another example, of such an assumption is also made in the first paragraph "It is historically rooted in interpretations of the reported teachings of Jesus Christ..." This may be true for the liberal tradition but not for the Pastoral or Conservative traditions. For them, that root is certainly contemporary, not only historical
If the intent of this article is to present the viewpoint of the liberal tradition, then it is fine, but if it purports to represent an over-arching introduction to the Quaker faith, world-wide, then my opinion is that contributors take more care to question some of the obvious assumptions that are being made when explaining facets of Quaker faith.
Allistair Lomax ( talk) 11:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Having said that, the two examples you give are I believe both correct in their context in the article and should not be changed. You comment that the statement "It is based on the idea that individuals can have a personal relationship with the divine without the need for intermediaries, such as priests, rituals or sacraments." is a modern liberal view of quakerism, but this was an idea clearly put forward by Fox and other early quakers. Secondly, quakerism is historically rooted in interpretations of the teaching of jesus christ - again this is clear in the tracts of early quakers. These two statements don't express a view point - they are facts.
Perhaps a good way of dealing with these concerns would be to introduce a section into the article that specifically speaks about the liberal tradition in quakerism as opposed to other traditions. This could be appended to the section on programmed/unprogrammed worship Jenafalt ( talk) 12:21, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I did see the disclaimer at the top of the article but also the invitation to contribute on this issue, which I did. I also said I didn't want to start a discussion on the two examples. But, as you've responded... Although the idea that "that individuals can have a personal relationship with the divine without the need for intermediaries, such as priests, rituals or sacraments." can reasonably be argued to be a consequence of Quaker faith, it is incorrect to say that the Quaker faith is primarily based on that idea, which the sentence, in my opinion, implies. Fox and early Friends stated that their prime message was about restoring 'Primitive Christianity' which had been lost after 1600 years of the 'Great Apostasy'. For them, intermediares, represented the elements of the Apostacy which Christ was calling them out of, but was also primarily about the restoration of an experience of the Living Christ which belongs to the New Covenant. On your second point, I had no intention of disputing that the Quaker faith is rooted historically in the teachings of Jesus Christ. From your response, I'm now unclear about what the article means by 'rooted'. The sentence, in my opinion, implies that contemporary Quaker faith is not necessarily based on the teaching of Jesus Christ, but was in the past. For traditions other than the liberal tradition, this is untrue, in that they would claim they are still based on this.
Incidentally, in my opinion, the phrase "historically rooted in interpretations of the teaching of jesus christ" is a very poor way of representing what I think it means to be 'rooted' in Christianity. Early Quakers described an experience of being taught by the Living Christ, himself, which is not quite the same as basing one's faith on an interpretation of his teaching. I can be influenced by the teachings of Buddha, but I would not claim a direct encounter with the living Buddha, I hope you appreciate the difference. Allistair Lomax ( talk) 13:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
On a more practical matter, my first suggestion relates to this statement, "It is based on the idea that individuals can have a personal relationship with the divine without the need for intermediaries, such as priests, rituals or sacraments." I would suggest the following:
"It is based on the idea that individuals can have a direct encounter with the divine." I would have thought that would be broad enough to be acceptable for most Quaker viewpoints.
I'm still not clear what the author, in the first paragraph, intends by the phrase "...historically rooted in interpretations of the reported teachings of Jesus Christ". So it is difficult to make suggestions. Second-guessing the intended meaning, I would suggest; "While all Quaker traditions would acknowledge that, historically, they are rooted in the Christian experience, some traditions would not neccessarily accept this as a distinguishing feature of their faith in a modern context, while others certainly would." Hope that helps. I do have comments on the section "Beginings" which I'll post later. Allistair Lomax ( talk) 12:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
1. "The Religious Society of Friends began in England in the 1650s..." It is widely accepted that origins of what we now call the Society of Friends lie in the UK Midlands, in the 1640’s. It is a popular folk-myth that the Quaker movement began in the North-West in the 1650’s. It certainly picked up much momentum there, but did not begin there. “And the Truth sprang up first (to us, as to be a People to the Lord) in Leicestershire in 1644, and in Warwickshire in 1645, and in Nottinghamshire in 1646, and Derbyshire in 1647.” George Fox, ‘Concerning the first Spreading of the Truth, and how many were imprisoned, &c. In “A Collection of many Select and Christian Epistles,...” 1698
2. “...as a Nonconformist breakaway movement from English Puritanism..” I would say that the theory of Quaker origins as a off-shoot of Puritanism is now largely discredited within Quaker academic circles. One of its chief advocates was Geoffrey Nuttall (See Nuttall, G. F., The Holy Spirit in Puritan Faith and Experience Oxford: Blackwell, 1946).
Lewis Benson (A Universal Christian Faith, New Foundation Fellowship, 2008, p8), gives one of the best discussions on this topic and demonstrates, because of major theological differences, that the Quaker faith cannot be classified as a species of Puritanism. I have not seen any serious attempt to refute Benson's views. I suppose I should have started a new topic here, sorry, Allistair Lomax ( talk) 11:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the Christian denomination infobox, which used to read the following:
Religious Society of Friends | |
---|---|
Distinct fellowships | Yearly Meetings |
Associations | World Council of Churches |
Founder | George Fox and others |
Origin | 1656 England |
Separations | Hicksite/Orthodox split; Gurneyite/Wilburite split |
Other name(s) | Quakers |
The fact is, the data this infobox is designed to convey just doesn't happen to be relevant to Quakerism: the splits aren't as important as the different groupings such as programmed/unprogrammed or conservative in the US etc. The associations it has are too trivial for the lead section, and the info on founding is is the caption of George Fox's image.
Many thanks for the effort regardless! Drum guy ( talk) 19:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
In the presidensts article, it says that Nixon could claim CO status due to his and his parents(my emphasis) being Quakers. Is this correct that your parents have to be Quakers, or is it enough to just be Quaker oneself to qualifer? TIA -- Tom (talk) 04:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
The first paragraph states Amnesty International was founded by Quakers. In fact, it was started by Peter Benenson, who converted from Judaism to Catholicism. Therefore, this is a false statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philiplynch ( talk • contribs) 17:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
This section is far too convoluted for an introduction:
There should be a short statement about the variety of beliefs in quakerism in the introduction and then this should be moved to a specific section on beliefs. Jenafalt ( talk) 08:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
i dont belive that parts should be moved as school children may wish to read about quakers, but have to switch pages just to get seperate answers that should all be under the same simple title —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.189.36 ( talk) 19:04, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm confused: quite what is the nature of the split that is being proposed? 𝐨𝐱𝐲𝐩𝐡𝐞𝐧𝐵𝑈𝑇𝐴𝑍𝑂𝑁𝐸 Ⓤ Ⓣ 00:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I see that the split tag was added on 12 August 2009 by, Ceiriog ( talk), who has a history of constructive contributions to this article. Therefore it can be assumed that while no rationale was added at the time, the tag was added in good faith.
It may be desirable to split some portion of the article at some point in time. However, at present I would tend to concur with 86.27.189.36 although for a different reason. Primarily, the article needs some work, and you would do yourselves a great disservice to split it before improving the article. Obviously it's far easier to work on an article's quality while it is in one piece.
First and foremost is a matter of adding citations wherever needed, and wherever possible. I have relocated the references out of the body of the article, following on from User:Chienlit's implementation of a reference update for the Vincent Priessnitz article on 15 November 2009, and which I have now implemented in several other articles. This makes it easier to edit both the body of the article without the clutter of citations, and the citations themselves.
For example, in the process of this exercise, I found that two separately listed citations were from the same source, one of which has a website link (Rush, 2002). Also, you can easier work on the format of the citations because they're all gathered together. However, while that is good to do, it is not critical. As long as you provide enough information so the reader can track down the original source, if you're not sure how to format it, someone else can sort out that out later. Or you can check out the editing text of other articles and pinch formats from there. That's what I did as I learned bits of Wikipedia editing. And of course, once I had made enough citations, I could raid my own examples. I would copy-and-paste into the article I'm working on, and then obviously just change the details for each section of the reference. Just be sure to 'Cancel' the editing in the article you're raiding, or use the back-arrow to take the page you're raiding back to how you found it. As long as you don't save any unintended changes, you can't do any harm. You can of course use the Editing help templates, which I also do. But I still find the need to raid formats that display the reference how I want it displayed, especially with some cumbersome or unusual references.
You can also work on the article's structure and other details much more readily while the article is in one piece. Get it as good as you can get it, and then consider what sections might warrant an article of their own. If you decide something does warrant its own article, well you've done most of the work. All you need do is copy-and-paste the text to a new article, and create a synopsis paragraph in the current article, with a link to the new article. I'm not saying anything here that most or all of you won't already know. What I am saying is, loosely speaking, that's how I'd go about it. I wouldn't create needless extra work for myself by prematurely splitting the article. I'd get the parent article as good as I could, trying to get it to a point that it makes sense to someone who isn't familiar with what the article is about. Wotnow ( talk) 04:59, 3 January 2010 (UTC)Wotnow
I haven't however created a summary for the archive as I see there is a list of summaries for each file at the top of this page. I will leave that for another editor, as I am uncertain of the practicality of archive summaries, since they are already at the top of each archived file. I will leave it for you all to decide. Hope my edits have been beneficial, -- Abie the Fish Peddler ( talk) 10:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I have seen different titles for men and women in old meeting house records. I can guess their meaning, but it would be nice if this article included them with the terms at the bottom of the article. The titles seen among the men were - Goodman, Brother, Mr and sometimes just their name. Among the women there were similar titles - Goody, Goodw., Mrs. and Sister but never just their name. Thank you. Jrcrin001 ( talk) 16:39, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
for example - neither John Cadbury nor Joseph Rowntree are even mentioned in 'List of Quakers'? These men played important roles in UK social reform ideas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.130.202 ( talk) 20:13, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Who and/or what are the Quakers? Who are the Religious Society of Friends? The intro needs to introduce an outsider to the topic... — Felix the Cassowary 09:54, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
As of this edit. I have boldly deleted the section on "Quaker Terminology". It had been marked as unsourced for over a year and the GA reassessment highlighted it as a problem (suggested that it be spun off as it's own article, but that'd require being sourced). Remembering that WP is not a dictionary or an indiscriminate collection of information I do not feel that the section is hugely important to anyone wanting to learn about the RSoF. If you really object to this, please comment. -- Paul Carpenter ( talk) 18:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to certain charities happening to have a Quaker amongst their founders. I don't think this is sufficiently notable to be in the introduction to a general article on Quakers as (a) other religious groups also have charities started by their members, they are not listed in the introductions to articles on their religious groups; (b) it is not relevant to the article as a whole - these are just a few individuals who happened to be Quakers rather than a corporate act on behalf of Quakers overall; (c) why mention that some charities were founded by Quakers - one might as well mention that two US Presidents were Quakers, or that two major UK banks were founded by Quakers, or that several chocolate manufacturers were founded by Quakers; (d) I don't think that these charities being founded by people who happened to be Quakers is a well known fact that is notable enough to be in the introduction to this article Ceiriog ( talk) 00:04, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Do quakers believe in the Trinity such do mainstream christianity churches or not ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.80.191.190 ( talk) 06:41, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
A recent amendment has stated:
The text however does not say that all non-pastoral meetings are like the first example and all pastoral meetings are like the second example, nor that all Friends' meetings fit into one category or the other all the time. It simply states that 'some' have silent worship with no leader and no fixed program, and 'some' have a pastor, readings and hymns. I think this is true, although the addition of 'human' before leader might be useful. 87.194.113.39 ( talk) 20:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the text "The growing number of Quakers who follow an earth-centered or pagan spiritual path are known as Quaker-pagans or Quagans."
Someone reverted Quakers & Business as it is said to be a charity. perhaps we need a WP article to cover the whole topic of Quakers in business and another listing "Listed Informal Groups" that are listed in Britain Yearly Meetings Book of Meetings, published each year. Vernon White . . . Talk 10:42, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
This article in general is very long, and this section in particular is rather messy and mixes several different levels of organization. I suggest that after the general introduction to FWCC, the information about the various Sections of FWCC be moved to the Friends World Committee for Consultation article.
I'm not sure what to do with the continent/country/"elsewhere" information that follows. There would probably be enough cultural/historical/statistical information to constitute "Quakers in Europe" (or "Quakerism in Europe"), "Quakers in North America", etc. Quakers in Kenya already exists, but perhaps it would be more sensible to organize by continent, rather than country, since a huge number of countries have a small number of Quakers. Cpastern ( talk) 21:07, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Religious Society of Friends was copied or moved into Friends World Committee for Consultation with this edit on 0100: 10 April 2011. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
I have reverted the last two changes.
See here I have proposed splitting this article into two—one about the Religious Society (its make-up and demographics, history, etc.) and one about Quakerism (beliefs, practices, etc.) The discussion linked before seems to support this. — Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 01:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the 19th century engraving of George Fox from the top of this article. There are two reasons for this: (1) This is an article about the Religious Society of Friends - it is not about George Fox. Although George Fox plays an important part in the development of the Religious Society of Friends in the 17th century, he is not particularly central to Quakerism today, and I do not feel that he is of sufficient importance to place a picture purporting to be of him at the top of the article. There are plenty of other individuals who have developed Quakerism since then who might have equal claim to be at the top of the article. To put a picture purporting to be of Fox at the top would be similar to placing a picture of Henry VIII at the top of an article about the Church of England, or a picture of St Peter at the top of an article about the Roman Catholic Church - yes they are important but they are hardly the central figure within either church. Quakerism has moved on a long way since Fox's day, and as the article points out - only a small proportion of Quakers today are Conservative (similar to what George Fox might recognise were he alive today) - most are either evangelical or liberal, neither of which have much in common with Fox. (2) Even if there was an argument for including a picture of Fox say in the 'History' section, this one is not it. This is an image produced around 200 years after Fox died, by an artist who never met Fox. It is therefore entirely unencyclopaedic to include this article as it is merely a fictional illustration rather than in any way showing what Fox actually looked like. It might be interesting - say - in the George Fox article to discuss various pictures which purport to be of George Fox and the likely accuracy of them, however the general Religious Society of Friends page, in my opinion is not the place for this. Ceiriog ( talk) 18:02, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I would rather see an image of George Fox than a symbol for the American Friends Service Committee. While I don't think there is one specific symbol for Quakers, this one does not seem to fit.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wildeyedredhead ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm researching the motivations of American Loyalists for my dissertation at University and Quakers have come up in most of my readings as prominent Loyalists. However this article appears to be missing any mention of the American Revolution at all: Is this simply because it has been overlooked or is it not generally approved to 'tar' present day associations with the Loyalist moniker? Henners91 ( talk) 14:45, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
As Erp has said, Quaker communities collectively refused to fight or even sign oathes of loyalty; thusly they were persecuted and mistrusted by Patriots. It's an important fact. And well done for mentioning Pennsylvania, I totally forgot that Quakers dominated the state legislature there before the war Henners91 ( talk) 14:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Hey all,
I'm a little worried that the current article title doesn't fall in-line with WP:COMMONNAME. I've always refereed to these folks as Quakers, and have never heard this term "Religious Society of Friends" used before. I did a quick poll of the folks in my office, and nobody knew that "Religious Society of Friends" was in fact the "correct" term for Quakers.
While I respect the fact that the group might self-identify as the "Religious Society of Friends", WP article titles aren't decided on the basis of self-identification. They're decided on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME.
I propose and immediate rename. I imagine there's probably been discussion on this topic before. Can someone point to it for me? NickCT ( talk) 12:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved per the common name argument below. Quakerism also appears to have support but that'll need some more discussion. -- regentspark ( comment) 14:00, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
Religious Society of Friends → Quakers – I'm pretty sure these guys are far more commonly referred to as Quakers. Thus, per WP:COMMONNAME, it would probably be appropriate to move this page. NickCT ( talk) 14:38, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm sure this must have come up before, but it's a question close to my heart, so I bring it up... while RSoF grew out of definitively Christian roots, and many modern Friends consider themselves Christian (especially among Evangelical meetings), it's not an exclusively Christian identity. The lead certainly gives the (misleading) impression that Quakers are all Christians. Is there some way to alleviate that without it becoming awkward? SamBC( talk) 21:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Actually, as a further thought, there are several elements that don't entirely seem to be from a NPOV... while it is arguably neutral between different traditions among Friends, the description of those differences is very much from a Christian POV... some bits on Liberal Quakerism seem almost judgemental, especially the mention of non-Christian Friends (the number of whom seems implied to be almost negligible, which it certainly isn't in Western Europe)... SamBC( talk) 21:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Just reading more (yeah, should have done that all in one go), it seems like the degree of controversy over non-Christian Quakers is overblown. I'm sure it's that controversial in some liberal YMs, but definitely not all... I've already tweaked wording a tiny bit to remove the implication that the presence of non-Christian Quakers is very recent and limited to "parts of the US and Europe". SamBC( talk) 21:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Are Quakers Christians? Not all of them. Quakerism has deep Christian roots, and most Quakers consider themselves Christian, but many do not. Quakers have always held that Christ as spirit is universally available, and has been at work since the beginning of creation. This "universalist" perspective is especially strong in the unprogrammed branch of Quakerism. Unprogrammed meetings are often characterized by great theological diversity, while still experiencing profound spiritual community.
The statement that Quakers have a "congregationalist polity" is incorrect. A "congregationalist polity" means that each congregation is independent of each other congregation. But this is not the Quaker tradition.
In the Quaker tradition, congregations (which are called "Meetings", at least by unprogrammed Quakers) are grouped together into larger units. In Great Britain, for example, local Meetings are grouped together into "Area Meetings", with each Area Meeting having authority over all the local Meetings in a particular area. All the Area Meetings are grouped into a yet larger unit called "Britain Yearly Meeting", which is the sovereign body, having authority over the Area Meetings.
Quakers in other parts of the world are organised in a broadly similar way, although the details will vary from place to place. The largest (and sovereign) unit is generally called a "Yearly Meeting". While Meetings that are not part of any larger body do exist (especially in parts of the world where there are very few Quakers), this is not the norm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.108.123 ( talk) 20:33, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
The article is not consistent in the capitalization of "yearly meeting." In general I favor fewer capitalized words, but I don't know when this should be considered a proper noun and when it shouldn't.--~ T P W 20:26, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
“ | However, the words for types of institutions (church, university, college, hospital, high school, bank, etc.) do not require capitalization if they do not appear in a proper name. | ” |
What happened to the section on 'Quaker terminology'? The 'Quaker terminology' link in the article on 'Clerk (Quaker)' links to the main article, but there is no explanation in the main article as there used to be. 'Quaker speak' may qualify as a separate article. MaxHund ( talk) 15:44, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
"Some Quakers in America became well known for their involvement in the abolition of slavery." seems to me a rather inadequate statement. Vernon White . . . Talk 02:09, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
The source cited states "These represent 40% of the world Quaker membership, but that is an underestimate, as many evangelical Quaker Churches do not affiliate to the Friends World Committee for Consultation.". Are there any better sources? "At least 40%", would seem to be an understatement. Vernon White . . . Talk 09:17, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
It seems that the edits made today have been to try to eliminate references to evangelical, pastoral and conservative Friends in the lead, and present the whole of the Religious Society of Friends as if the whole Society were liberal/FGC. This is a general page about the WHOLE of the Religious Society of Friends - of whom at least 40% are evangelical, around 50% are pastoral/FUM and only around 11% are liberal (and of these a smaller percentage universalist). The page and the lead should present a balanced point of view which includes recognition that the large majority of Friends worldwide would describe themselves as Christians, or would use terms such as Friends Church to describe their organisation. There is a systemic bias in that many Wikipedia editors are white, affluent, young people from developed countries, who are therefore much more likely to be universalist Quakers than the majority of Friends in the world, so there is a tendency to present the WHOLE of the Society as their experience of their liberal/universalist meeting. 94.197.127.211 ( talk) 23:53, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
This page should be edited by non-Quakers. Georgenancy ( talk) 03:23, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Reliable sources, yes. But it will take heavy-duty intellectual muscle power to discern the facts that make up the true picture of Quakerism. Beyond sources, this page needs an encyclopedic scholar of substance. Georgenancy ( talk) 22:33, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
"Women's meetings were organized to involve women in modest, feminine pursuits, and Quaker men excluded them from church public concerns with which they had some powers and responsibilities, such as allocating poor relief and in ensuring that Quaker marriages could not be attacked as immoral." The above sentence implies that women were, and by implication are still now, treated as inferiors by Quaker men. This may or may not be true with the Evangelical movement but I don't think it's accurate for Liberal Friends. At some point, women's business meetings and men's business meetings became separate but equal, with separate entry doors in many unprogrammed meetings. Saylesville, RI Meeting has had two separate meeting rooms since 1742.
"Women were treated as severely as men by the authorities." Marmaduke Stephenson and one other man were hanged on Boston Common, while Mary Dyer was whipped and released to the custody of her husband William Dyer. She was given another chance to stop preaching, which she didn't take. This is an example of unequal punishment by the authorities. It's also an example of a Quaker woman preaching unto death. Paul Klinkman ( talk) 17:05, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I have never heard of the "priesthood of all believers," and I am a birthright Quaker. 108.240.108.255 ( talk) 02:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
So add a reference or references after the statement. It is not a term that a non-invested reader will recognize, and it should include a citation. 108.240.108.255 ( talk) 05:01, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Last year, the title of this page was changed from Religious Society of Friends to Quakers. However, the lead still started "The Religious Society of Friends, or Friends Church is..." with only any mention of Quakers several sentences in. Overall I opposed the change of the name of the page from Religious Society of Friends to Quakers however the move was made anyway (see archived discussion further up the talk page). Therefore, as the change has been made, I edited the lead to reflect this so that it started "Quakers, or Friends are..." with the emphasis being on what Quakers are rather than on what the Religious Society of Friends is. This change was reverted by Georgenancy with the edit comment "Highly biased editing convoluted the information so that only insiders could appreciate it". We are therefore back to the state of a page that is titled Quakers being about the Religious Society of Friends in the lead. I would be quite happy for the name of the page to go back to Religious Society of Friends, but if we are sticking with a page entitled Quakers then the lead needs to start with explaining what Quakers are rather than what the Religious Society of Friends is. Ceiriog ( talk) 19:48, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
"In the early days of the United States, there was doubt whether a marriage solemnized in that manner was entitled to legal recognition. Over the years each state set rules for the procedure. Most US states (except Pennsylvania) expect the marriage document to be signed by a single officiant (a priest, rabbi, minister, Justice of the Peace, etc.)."
OK. What do we do in PA???georgespelvin69 16:28, 1 July 2012 (UTC)georgespelvin69 — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Georgespelvin69 (
talk •
contribs)
I haven't heard the term "liberal Friends" used before. I've often heard the term "unprogrammed Friends". People should properly be called by what they name themselves, not by what other people call them for pejorative reasons, although the name "Quaker" itself was put upon the Friends of the Truth by the British authorities. The Unitarian Universalists are liberal. I can see a liberal flavor or strain within the body of unprogrammed Friends, but I equally see a deeply religious flavor, almost Pentecostal in its nature, flowing within the same group. Sometimes the two attributes are found within the same Friends. Paul Klinkman ( talk) 02:07, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
To Whom it May Concern, I simply wanted to notify the larger Wikipedia community that within the next week or so, I will be augmenting some portions of the Quaker Wikipedia page, particularly focusing on Quaker women, which is what the majority of my research is in. I would love to have a dialogue with anyone who has critiques or changes to make to my additions.
Llt123 ( talk) 00:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Now the page is semi-protected I, as someone who's never bothered to register, can't edit obviously but "However the dominant discourse of Protestantism.[18] viewed the Quakers as" has a period which does not belong there - can someone remove it? 83.84.138.87 ( talk) 15:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Is there any reason why all of the bar charts should be wide enough to fit Kenya's bar? The middle east and americas one look particularly ugly with all that whitespace squishing the real text of their relevant sections into a little column. Europe has its own max width, for example, and that looks a lot better. If no-one objects soon, I'll make them all behave the same way (with sensible individual widths). Fatphil ( talk) 13:50, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I think more of this history stuff should be split off & put in a different place than on this main page. I think this page is too long. If it was placed on a few more pages, it would make it easier to refer to the various different parts of it. I think there is too much history on this page really. . EE 46.64.73.245 ( talk) 12:55, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
As an early martyr for Quakerism, she absolutely should be included. (EBY)/ 98.227.225.222 ( talk) 11:34, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
I am aware that there tends to be a very strong relationship between Local Meetings and higher structures (e.g. Yearly Meetings). However, the defining characteristic of Congregational polity is that the control over doctrine and practice is local and participation in the larger structure is voluntary on the part of the local congregation. More conventional congregational churches can and do form elaborate superstructures above them and agree to harmonize their doctrines and worship structures; the clearest examples are probably the Baptist Conventions and the United Church of Christ. Quaker yearly meetings are a bit more tightly bound to each other than those, but nevertheless if a local meeting wishes to go its own way, there is no "Quaker canon law" that would put serious obstacles from doing so, as would occur if a Catholic or Anglican parish or even a local Presbyterian congregation did so (for a particularly contentious example of the latter, see Presbyterian Church in the U.S. v. Mary Blue Hull Memorial Presbyterian Church, 393 U.S. 440 (1969). Lockesdonkey ( talk) 03:53, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
I was pondering whether I could find an authoritative reference for the first use of the term " Quaker," which I thought was going to be recorded in Bristol, but I thought that this reference to a " sect of women " in Southwarke sounded intriguing plausible as the source idea for Justice Bennet's sneer at Fox. Whilst I realise that there were a lot of women around who were being empowered by the circumstances of the civil wars, I then wondered about 16 year old Sarah Wight's prophecies of 1647 which were extremely popular and first published as ' Exceeding riches of grace advanced by the spirit of grace, in an empty nothing creature, viz. Mris Sarah Wight ' on 27 April 1647, second edition 27 September 1647, as described by Henry Jessey. She was a public spectacle and much noted for her astounding feat of what we might now worry about as a savage bout of anorexia [ see http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/69143 ] - and her fellow prophetess Anna Trapnell also had some strange behaviour too, and I suspect that they were more or less involved in what was a sort of religious circus side-show. They were teenage prophetesses of the laying still and looking pale sort whose behaviour was either quiet and ecstatic or loud and hysteric such as we now presently associate with ' Goths ' and ' Emos.' The publisher of Sarah Wight's book was the Fifth Monarchist and dangerously female printer Hannah Allen/Chapman [ http://www.oxforddnb.com/templates/article.jsp?articleid=57039&back= ]
It must be noted that George Fox seems to have been considered to be effeminate by some of the radically religious for his not cutting those long curly locks ... but then most of them were all dressed up in ribbons and lace themselves ! ( And just before I leave this to others, it is worth noting that by this time snippets of the Koran were being discussed and George Fox is recorded as having quoted a couple of passages from it : this tends to upset all those Quakers who are determined to make him as staunchly Christian as they are themselves ! )
From " The Beginnings of Quakerism " William C Braithwaite, published by MacMillan, London 1912.
page 57 - in text :
> 57 > " Before leaving the Derby imprisonment there is one last point to note. When examined before the magistrates Fox and his followers were called Quakers by Gervase Bennet, and the derisive name at once came into vogue. We find the word used as early as the year 1647, [ 1 - SEE SOURCE FOOTNOTE WHICH I QUOTE BELOW ] not of Friends, but of
... a sect of women ( they are at Southwark ) come from beyond sea, called Quakers, and these swell, shiver and shake, and, when they come to themselves, - for in all this fit Mahomet's Holy Ghost hath been conversing with them - they begin to preach what hath been delivered to them by the Spirit.
Fox says that Justice Bennett gave the nickname because Fox had bidden him tremble at the name of the Lord. [ 2 ] Barclay, on the other hand, tells us that the name came from the trembling of Friends under the powerful working of the Holy Ghost. [ 3 ] There is no real inconsistency between the two accounts. Fox gives the words of his own which led to Bennet's retort, but Barclay correctly states, as the 1647 extract shows, what must have been in Bennet's mind when he applied the scornful epithet to Fox. The name almost at once found its way into print in a tract > 58 > published in London early in 1652 called " The Pulpit Guarded with XVII Arguments " [ 1 ]
> 57 >
[ 1 ] Cited from Clarendon MSS. No 2624, per The Oxford English Dictionary, sub voce " Quaker." Tradition records that when questioned on the subject of inspiration Mohammed said that sometimes it affected him " like the ringing of a bell, penetrating my very heart, and rending me as it were in pieces." See Smith and Wace, Dict. of Christian Biography, iii. 963.
[ 2 ] Journ, i, 58. But in Great Mistery, pp,61, 110, he accepts the word as meaning " tremblers," saying that Bennet first gave the name, " though the mighty power of the Lord God had been known years before," and " quaking and trembling we own, though they in scorn calls us so." In the Cambridge Journ, i. 5-8 there is a strongly-worded letter from Fox to Bennet as " given up to misname the saints." Ct. past. p.119.
[ 3 ] Apology, prop. 11, sect. 8 , cf. Wm Penn, Serious Apology, 1672, p.12.
> 58 >
[ 1 ] P. 15, " We have many sects now abroad, Ranter[s], Seekers, Shakers, Quakers, and now Creepers " ; Cf. Alex. Gordon in J.F.H.S. ii. 70. The preface is dated Jan 1, 1651, that is, 1652 New Style. DaiSaw ( talk) 00:42, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
It's incorrect to state that the treaty was never violated. See the 18th century history section of the article on the Lenape Indians. It clearly states, "In the end, all Lenape who still lived on the Delaware were driven off the remnants of their homeland under threats of violence. Some Lenape polities eventually retaliated by attacking Pennsylvania settlements." Darx9url ( talk) 04:09, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't know about the Penn's Creek Massaccre, but I do know something about the 2 Paxton Boys massacres (1st on December 14, 1763). There's no question that Pennsylvanians were violently pushing out Native Americans, including the Lenape. You might even call it "ethnic cleansing". As an aside, after the 1st massacre some folks claimed that a copy of an old treaty, perhaps even THE old treaty, was found among the Conestoga's possessions (which really doesn't make a lot of sense). But there is a difference between Pennsylvanians, the Proprietorship of Pennsylvania, the heirs of Penn (who were Church of England folks), and Quakers. So the question of "who signed" the oral treaty appears on both sides. If I may paraphrase a 20th century saying "An oral treaty isn't worth the deerskin it's printed on." BTW, the"rule" of Quakers only lasted until about 1710, and just before the French and Indian Wars they all dropped out of the colony's government (until the war was over).
In short - it's an overstatement by Voltaire - but if you use a 1710 ending date, there wasn't too much breaking of the oral treaty. Smallbones( smalltalk) 17:21, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
And in March, 1722, the Colonial Authorities, sending a message to the Senecas, said: “William Penn made a firm peace and league with the Indians in these parts near forty years ago, which league has often been repeated and never broken. In fact the “Great Treaty” was never broken until the Penn’s Creek Massacre of October 16, 1755.”
@ Guy Macon and Darx9url: The two of you need to give it a rest. Based on the facts presented, there has been no consensus of academic sources to agree whether the treaty was or was not violated. Since that's the case, Wikipedia should not attempt a determination, as that would be synthesis/original research. I recommend the both of you leave this article alone. Let's leave out the "treaty was never violated" statement. Chris Troutman ( talk) 15:05, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
This edit seems to be accurate to the cited source. I'm not impressed with that source in any case and support removing the entire sentence. I don't want to see edit-warring over this, so discuss. Chris Troutman ( talk) 00:03, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
@ NisJørgensen and VQuakr: I had reverted that change because the .03% number is accurate to the cited source. Further, discussion had not resulted in consensus (in my opinion) and the in-line note that discussion is underway should also have been retained. What you're doing is WP:SYNTHESIS. Regardless, this issue isn't worth drama so I'll leave it alone. Chris Troutman ( talk) 15:10, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Quakers at large, FWCC, is not a member of WCC. Three groups are listed as members of WCC ( see list):
Therefore this page cannot be taged with the Category:Members of the World Council of Churches -- MHM ( talk) 07:56, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
In paragraph 2, it is mentioned that about 49% of Friends practice 'programmed worship' and about 11% practice 'waiting worship', what type or types of worship do the remaining about 40% practice. Duncan.france ( talk) 03:58, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
A recent mass edit [29] by Pablo.paz has a number of issues. Foremost issue is that he says he has used reference works and "the most respected histories of the Quaker movement", however, not one of his edits includes a citation, and not one of his removals of existing text is given a reason. Such amounts of unexplained and uncited edits may have been acceptable in the past. But with the encyclopedia becoming more mature and with higher standards for editing work being increasingly expected and required, additions of large amounts of uncited entries and unexplained removals of existing text is in my opinion, unacceptable. I am highly tempted to revert the entire edit. Marteau ( talk) 20:16, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
N.B. I find WIkipedia incredibly difficult and frustrating. The interface is not just user-un-friendly, it is anti-friendly. I have been dealing with it for several years, trying to contribute information and every experience ends in bitter frustration. ANd i started using computers in 1968… As a writer/editor/researcher i do not have time to deal with the barriers this system sets up. SO i just write what i know and try to make it work. For example, when i was reading this article and trying to find this forum, i could not get to it. SO here you are, the gryphons at the gate. FIne. I've done the research. I tried to enter footnotes, but none took. The previous authors, some of whom were beating hobbyhorse theories and some of whom have biased agendas --not that my biases are not inherent-- managed to put in ideas to your satisfaction. THis is like criminal court where the truth is not acceptable -- only what the judge lets the jury hear. Fine. Do what you will with the adjustments i made -- assign them a fact-checker and i will share my sources. They can add the footnotes if they can deal with the technical impediments. But do not pretend that the WIki article that was there meets high encyclopedic standards of accuracy if it represents only outsiders' hasty perceptions and not the results of 100 years of accurate Quaker history writing and research. Pablo.paz ( talk) 23:54, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Ah, the gryphons at the gates. I have just reviewed the changes i proposed and am prepared to argue and defend every one of them. I am interested, as a Friend of the Truth (Quaker), that your reversion of the article now means that the Wiki is propagating some outright falsehoods. Is it really in your powers to hide the truth and make decisions about what is or isn't factual? Maybe we should all just go back to reading the Britannica. Pablo.paz ( talk) 00:10, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I found Quaker music while new page feed patrolling, and decide to see if there was any consensus in merging that article here. -- I dream of horses ( T) @ 06:54, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
The article on Excommunication discusses the general concept of banning or shunning and has sections for the variety of this exclusionary practice among various religions including Quaker excommunication which it identifies as being "read out of meeting". However the Quaker article does not, and this seems like an oversight. In fact, there is nothing about this at all with the exception of one comment about "Quakers gone bad" being "branded a heretic" and "read out of meeting" in Talk/Archive 4.
If there is such a thing, can someone knowledgeable about this add a subsection or paragraph about this somewhere? Mathglot ( talk) 22:23, 2 December 2014 Hmm, that's interesting, my tilde-sig to the left seems to have had its timestamp omitted. I've edited it back in. Mathglot ( talk) 01:55, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Friend never practiced shunning as in some Anabaptist groups. People were read out of meeting for behavior that did not reflect Quaker practice, but it was a matter of revoking membership, not cutting ties. They could still attend and not cut off from friends or family. This is a long article, and I don't see reason to add it. 2605:A000:1313:4006:8816:5058:E141:62B6 ( talk) 02:49, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
The lead says "Many Friends view themselves as members of a Christian denomination." I would think that most Friends view themselves as members of a Christian denomination. Any objection to changing this? Anyone have a good source on what percentage of Friends do not consider themselves members of a Christian denomination? Darx9url ( talk) 14:47, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
The "many" reflects a generally FGC perspective of this article, though even there a significant percentage would acknowledge Christian roots. But the vast majority of Friends world wide are part of FUM, and clearly Christian. 2605:A000:1313:4006:8816:5058:E141:62B6 ( talk) 02:54, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
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The page is an uneasy mixture of US and UK at present. Which should it be? Bmcln1 ( talk) 20:37, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
That will be a matter of Wkipedia policy, I should imagine hypotaxis ( talk) 10:01, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
This passes for an enclopedia entry? Wikipedia is a horrible source on quakers. Whoever is maintaining this should be ashamed. There are so many better sources.
IT seems that whoever is trying to "maintain" this entry focuses entirely on the religious aspects to the Quakers. History.com shows this to be a feeble and weak view of the Quakers.
THe fact that the Quakers were the first abolitionists in the country wasn't even mentioned int he article. To name just one defect in the article. Thank goodness there are many sources that bring to light the enormous accomplishments of the Quakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:304:6450:6DCD:3FDA:AEFC:51C8 ( talk) 18:48, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
https://www.c-span.org/video/?202202-17/quakers-invented-America
Some passages use the word "religious" where it is not necessary. For example "... a direct religious belief in the universal priesthood of all believers.[14] They emphasized a personal and direct religious experience of Christ, acquired through both direct religious experience and the reading and studying of the Bible." The word "Christian" is also scattered in odd places, such as in the section on Conservative Quakers "retaining Christian Quakers who use the plain language" as if those who didn't were not.
"Simplicity" deserves a section of its own, with sections on plain dress, plain speech and simplicity in the home -- Hugh7 ( talk) 07:43, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Quaker worship services are called "meetings for worship". They start with everybody sitting quietly. This is because they are trying to listen to God. Sometimes, a Quaker will feel that God wants him or her to say something. When this happens, the person stands up and tells everyone. Then they all sit quietly again. At some meetings, a many people will speak. At other meetings, nobody speaks. Quakers feel that a meeting for worship helps them to understand what God wants. Usually, worship lasts about an hour.
Anyone can go to a Quaker meeting.
Quakers also have meetings for worship for weddings and funerals -- when two people get married, or if someone dies. When two people get married, the meeting is about them and the life that they will live together. When someone has died, the meeting is about remembering things about the person and the life they had.
Many Quakers in North America, South America, and Africa have a different kind of worship service, like other Christian services. They sing hymns and a pastor gives a sermon. They also have a quiet time, but it does not last as long. These Quakers often have strong Christian beliefs.
and at other times these meetings also decide what Quakers should do - these meetings can be called "meetings for business", but other people call them "meetings for worship for business", because they include parts of both worship and business.
deisenbe ( talk) 16:37, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
The recent change in article name was done inappropriately. Correct procedure is to open a discussion and get a consensus before making such a major change. This was not done. Furthermore, the proposed name "The Religious Society of Friends of the Truth" is a historical term that is not in common use with any modern Quaker groups. The majority of Quaker meetings use the formal name "Society of Friends", but this is not consistent across all Quaker groups. This article name change seems to be an act of WP:OR. Mediatech492 ( talk) 15:11, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
This article's "tree [splitting/schism] diagram" (titled "Divisions of the Religious Society of Friends") refers to 5 "divisions" of the Quakers/Friends. The "Theology" section of this article describes 7 branches, via 7 subsections - one for each. The companion article Friends United Meeting refers to 6 "branches". Discussions in both articles sometimes refer to a branch by its "name" and other times by the "name of its meeting", and the connection between the two is not obvious. All of this confuses the naive reader, such as myself. (I get the impression, possibly mistaken, that in some cases a particular "yearly meeting" or particular "5-year meeting" might not necessarily be congruent with any particular branch. But nowhere in either article is this explained.)
Perhaps a Venn diagram would better show the relationships between different groups better than the current, possibly overly-simplistic, "tree [splitting/schism] diagram" does. Alternatively, a more complex "tree diagram", similar those in the Christian denomination#Taxonomy article & section might be more explanatory. Acwilson9 ( talk) 00:36, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
@ 2a02:c7f:a025:2500:b910:998c:d451:37a0: @ Mediatech492: Please stop your edit warring. Discuss the change here. INeedSupport (Care free to give me support?) 20:14, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
An editor has been trying to put this material into the article:
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term “Quaker” derives either from the Society's founder
George Fox directing his followers to “tremble at the name of the Lord’, or from
fits supposedly experienced by worshippers when moved by the
Spirit. Cf.
Shakers
[1]
References
There are several problems with this. First, the definition is not from the
Oxford English Dictionary, but from Oxford's online British and World English Dictionary. Second, the reference does not support the statement. It says perhaps alluding to George Fox's direction to his followers to ‘tremble at the name of the Lord’, or from fits supposedly experienced by worshippers when moved by the Spirit
, not that the term derived from either one or the other. (Such religious fits are not epileptic seizures, so the link is also incorrect.) Third, the origin of the term Quaker is already covered in the history section of this article. Any additional information about the name should be added there.
StarryGrandma (
talk)
20:10, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
At Wikipedia: WikiProject Council, I have made a proposal for a new WikiProject - WikiProject Mysticism. I wonder whether any readers of this article would be interested in joining this WikiProject? Vorbee ( talk) 19:30, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
What does "historically Christian" mean in this context? How does "historically" modify "Christian"? Historically the Quaker denomination has been Christian, but that as denomination it is less clearly so, now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DanMarshCTR ( talk • contribs) 00:03, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, that's about right. Groups among the Quakers have associated themselves less clearly with Christianity at various times. The article explains this. Bmcln1 ( talk) 07:40, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
I removed the star from the info-box as it gives the impression that the star is a symbol that Quakers use to represent their faith and practice – but it is not – Quakers do not use symbols – the star caption states that the star was used by some Friend’s service organizations, but there is no citation to support this - it is certainly not a symbol used by all Quakers – to have it in the info-box is misleading – unless a citation to a reliable source ( WP:RS) can be provided stating that this is a Quaker symbol, there is no justification for including the star in a general article on Quakers – WP:VERIFY – cheers - Epinoia ( talk) 18:41, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Quakers don't use symbolstests the limits of original research into outright fiction. Of course, Quakers do use symbols. Your creation of a false dichotomy between Quakers and Quaker service organizations doesn't change that. -- Equivamp - talk 20:34, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't think it's as recognizable, but if similar articles do the same, I can agree to it, with the star moved to its own section. The issue of how to describe it still exists, but will probably be easier to handle outside of an infobox. -- Equivamp - talk 17:02, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Creating this discussion per WP:BRD and pinging Cranberry Wood. Question is whether or not a {{ Very long}} tag is warranted.
The article is currently at 67k characters, and as such clearly exceeds the 50k recommendation made by WP:AS. The length of other articles on religious denominations is irrelevant (similar to WP:OSE). Remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such follows summary style. If there are other denominational articles with excessive length, perhaps they ought to be refactored as well. For this article in particular, I see a bit of a bloat in the "History" section (Would suggest moving some subsections to History of the Quakers, but that is at 48k and could possibly use a summarizing as well). Other sub-articles could be created as well to allow for more moving of sections and slimming of the main article.
All in all, I think the tag is warranted for the reasons above. Please let me know your opinion(s) and we can discuss from there. :) AviationFreak 💬 21:35, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Hello Quakers editors! I would like to start an independent page for Quaker decision-making (a.k.a. discernment, 'sense of meeting', etc.) The way Quakers make decisions has been secularized into the Consensus decision-making used by many activist groups and coops, and the Consent process used in Sociocracy. As such, I think it justifies its own page. Are any of you interested to get involved? I just started a draft. Happy for any input! DougInAMug talk 22:57, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be some discussion of pacifism in this article?
Weren't the Quakers a leading pacifist denomination at the time of the American Revolution?
I was raised in an evangelical Friends community. We had ministers, and a grandfather fought in WW I. However, the Wikipedia article on " Peace churches" says, "The term historic peace churches refers specifically only to three church groups among pacifist churches:
Sadly, I do not know enough to add material to this article on that, but I hope someone else will. Thanks, DavidMCEddy ( talk) 06:17, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
In this regard you face the question, "what is a Friend," and it seems to me, fail miserably. Those statements do not do justice. Let me explain. The argument that there are members of religious organizations that identify themselve with beliefs outside the teachings of their faith can't be used to identify what the faith is about. So a pork eating Jew, like an aethiest Friend is simply not practicing their faith in an honest manner. You will find hundreds or maybe even thousands of Friends that may say to you "I am an aethiest Friend," or "I am a Buddhist (insert whatever) Friend." However, the person is simply not being honest about what they believe. These are just people that become Friends that are tolerated by the greater community. They probably have become Friends to be able to make a social statement against war, or some other wrong which they feel. They are so far from daily Friend's practices that they simply cloud the vision of what is a far more coherent faith. Just because Friends tend to have great independence and autonomy, this article should not be focusing on opinions by some members that would be leading to the next split, unless it can be reported that way with authority.
You would not ever pick a random Jew or Catholic off the street and report their personal beliefs as tenents of those faiths.
Jackspratfacts ( talk) 15:01, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I would like to solicit opinions on this sentence, under the captioned section: "A decision is reached when the Meeting, as a whole, feels that the "way forward" has been discerned (also called 'coming to unity') or there is a consensus."
I do not know about other Yearly Meetings, but the Philadelphia Yearly Meeting, in Faith and Practice [1] clearly differentiates between consensus, which is a secular process, and a "sense of the meeting," which is the foundation of their decision-making, and a decidedly religious process. If this is consistent with other Yearly Meeings, I would propose the revised sentence to read: "A decision is reached when the Meeting, as a whole, feels that the "way forward" has been discerned, a process called 'coming to unity,' or 'finding a sense of the meeting.'"
Like2fly ( talk) 02:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
This long article really lacks a good, brief, synoptical introduction. Thanks, Maikel ( talk) 12:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm fact-tagging this - needs references. Is this actually done? I thought not, and the phrasing doesn't affirm that the IRS does this or gives any assurances. Tempshill ( talk) 05:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
There's no link in 'unprogrammed worship'... yet if you type that in the search bar, it redirects to that section in Religious Society of Friends. Mabye I'm just new, but this seems weird... could someone explain? -- Comfortably numb55 ( talk) 16:26, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
"unprogrammed" meetings but one would not say "Rochester Monthly Meeting is a waiting worship meeting." Asegalisaacson ( talk) 18:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
This text has been removed with adverse comment.
The editor's comment: inappropriate, arbitrary listing taken from an opinionated editorial critical of the unprogrammed tradition, POV and unsuitable.
The article referred to is without references but, in my view, makes a valid criticism of current unprogrammed Quaker attitudes. Perhaps we can use it to check whether there is "unprogrammed bias" in this article. Vernon White . . . Talk 10:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't we start a page on Convergent Friends sometime, or is that still a ways away in the making? I have the understanding that there is some sentiment among Friends to become a more united body of people, and that this sentiment has been through FGC and Conservative Friends a good bit. How is it going with FUM, and (maybe) EFI? —Preceding comment added by Fennasnogothrim ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
"After someone has spoken, it is expected that more than a few moments will pass in silence before further Ministry; there should be no spirit of debate."
Can somebody with a better understanding of it rephrase so it is clearer to what I think (?) it means? Is this to say that Quakers usually don't debate in the "thrust"-"counterthrust" kind of style, even when they disagree? How is it worked out then?
Cheers,
Ingolfson ( talk) 07:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
I have a concern about the way these terms are used in articles about the Society of Friends and our history. I have expressed these concerns in a posting of 2004 August 1 to what is now Archive01 of this talk page (and I thank the archive-maintainers for their diligence). Specifically "conservative" has been frequently attached to innovations in manners and practice among our society, innovations which look like backsliding towards the sort of manners and practice that early Friends felt called by Christ to resist in the 17th and 18th centuries. On the other hand "liberal" has been used to stigmatize those who seek to conserve the manners and practice deemed most likely to allow full expression of the Spirit of Christ in our Society by its founders. I'm not sure how to go about explaining this to people new to our faith and practice who are meeting it for the first time in Wikipedia articles, but I do pray such are not deceived. -- arkuat (talk) 05:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Though Quakers are now known for "pacifism" (in the democracies at least!), I once read (in an old history book from around the 1940's) that in their beginnings they were amongst the most fanatical of Cromwell's soldiers. The book is somewhere in the attic... but what's the convention for citing from History books? Can anyone find anything on the web (for the moment) to back this up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.86.243.150 ( talk) 16:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I came to this article looking for information regarding Quakers and pacifism and did not find anything at all. Only after very careful research in other articles did I realize that "Peace Testimony" had anything to do with pacifism, and then I came back here to put it all in context. To a school child looking up Quakers, this seems to be a topic not covered very clearly (or at all) in this otherwise very insightful article. "You have to know it to find it here." But perhaps my historical knowledge is shy of a couple of bricks. (My first wiki post!
Janet07810 (
talk)
16:14, 4 April 2010 (UTC)Janet07810)
I question having a Shakers link in the See Also section. I feel that it may serve to reinforce the confusion among the general public that Quakers and Shakers are in some way related. I would recommend deleting it. Chickpeana ( talk) 20:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for mailing me, my dear friend gorge, my own esprence in Africa is geting into another diffrent things, more espcially in Nigeria Ghanians copy them just like that,the group of society which colected money on my behalf , in one pentcostal church in Nigeria call C.p.m some enemies when,t and bribe them against me, pastors use them hands spread my name every where as person that get mental problem, castgeting with my with all manna of evil, just because of money ruth of all evil, look at what people are saying now, what thesame group of society did to my late father senur brother, them later turn back to me, abuseing thing up, Christainity brought to us from white why our own is diffrent more espcially in NIgeria, a,lots of money has being invested in there for work of GOd the leaders unit and shear it i, wounder how they resoninig there own thing, those it mean they know more than your people, in African to day theris some people God call to do his work, why can,t use the money to surported them, more than 12yrs now i,m into minisation work God , God provide his spiritiual blessings to me insted for them to give me suport they alowed satan to use them against me,what has not hapen befor hapen, because of there selfish desire,as they started with mistake my prayers is for them not end up with it, Thanks Mr irenaus chinedu Gods Grace, Nigeria writen in Ghana. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.210.43.77 ( talk) 08:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
"Quakerism is often termed a mystical religion because of its emphasis on the personal experience of God. But at first glance it differs from other mystical religions in at least two important ways. For one, Quaker mysticism is primarily group-oriented rather than focused on the individual."
While this seems a fair characterization of Quaker belief (to the extent that I understand it anyway), it also suggests a misunderstanding of other belief. I would point to eastern orthodox christianity (the second or third largest christian community, depending on how you count) as one that is both highly mystical in nature and highly communal as opposed to individualistic. In context then, this is not highly distinctive. So perhaps we really just mean 'as opposed to certain strains of protestant piety', or something like that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.81.251.201 ( talk) 19:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
The "See Also" section seems to have got rather out of hand (see " Shakers" comment above and other marginal articles:
Suggest that we current crop is deleted and, if necessary, more central references, not in the main text, added. Vernon White . . . Talk 07:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I hope I don't offend the fellow Wikipedians that worked on this article already, but I need to say it is not very informative, at least to someone that is looking for basic information on Quakers (and this is an encyclopedia after all). Let me list a few problems:
YvesJunqueira ( talk) 00:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Ceiriog ( talk) 18:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you both for improving this article. However, the addition of the Christianity sidebar is problematic, as are some of Ceiriog's changes to the first paragraph. Many Quakers in Britain today are non-Christian. I quite like the original sentence, "The Religious Society of Friends, members of which are commonly informally known as Quakers, was founded in England in the 17th century as a Christian religious denomination...", which is something most if not all Quakers can agree on. Mebden ( talk) 10:58, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, yes I see what you mean. On the other hand, the majority of Quakers worldwide would define themselves very much as Christian, and whether individual Quakers define themselves as Christian in Britain or not probably has more to do with what their own definition of Christianity is - for example see Mountain View Friends Meeting website http://www.mountainviewfriends.org/ "Friends are a Christian sect (or not) depending on your definition. Not, if you’re using the Nicene Creed (or any other) as your definition. Yes, if you mean that they take seriously many of the reported teachings of Jesus. Example: love your enemies.". I agree that the formulation "The Religious Society of Friends ... was founded as a Christian denomination" does get round this, but only by avoiding saying what the Society of Friends is at all. I think the initial sentence of the article should say what the Society of Friends is, not what it was. Also, whilst individual Friends in Britain may feel uncomfortable with the word "Christian", corporately the book of discipline of Britain Yearly Meeting is called "Quaker Faith and Practice: The Book of Christian discipline of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) in Britain" and many even of the most modern re-drafting of Britain Yearly Meeting's Advices and Queries make explicit reference to Christ and Christianity (admittedly less so than in previous editions of A&Q). To make out that the Society of Friends is not a Christian group would be inaccurate. I agree that maybe "The Religious Society of Friends is a Christian denomination" maybe does not sum this up perfectly... maybe "The Religious Society of Friends is a religious movement, regarded by many as a denomination of Christianity" would be more suitable. Ceiriog ( talk) 10:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
This becomes a (in American terms) a question of whether you are FGC (liberal) or FUM (mostly Christian) and harks back to some of the divides of the 19th century. Quakers were founded as a Christian group. Quakers today are a mixed bag, some (as in Ohio Yearly Meeting or East Africa Yearly Meeting) strongly Christian, others (as some members of FGC meetings) are not. The history is true: Fox, Nayler, Penn and the other first generation Quakers would have described themselves as Christian. Friends today do not always do so. When I joined Friends 20 years ago one of the questions raised was precisely this point on my Christianness. I was accepted into membership even though I made it quite clear that I did not believe in the special divinity of Jesus, which might be considered a hallmark of Christianity. I think the wording "...founded as a Christian group..." is more accurate than "...is a Christian sect..." If you want to add "...Many Quakers today consider themselves Christan, but some do not." that would probably clarify the point. Asegalisaacson ( talk) 18:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
I propose that the information regarding Friends and the abolition of slavery should go into a separate article - it is interesting, however information in this much detail probably doesn't belong in a general article on the Society of Friends. Ceiriog ( talk) 12:47, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Given that some do not agree that the religious society of friends is a christian movement, and symbols such as the cross are not regularly used in quaker meetings I have removed the christian side bar that was recently added to the article. I don't have a problem with it being part of the christianity series on wikipedia, but I think that the way that the sidebar is so prominently placed at the head of the article and the use of the symbol of the cross is misleading. Jenafalt ( talk) 09:24, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
I actually came here to try to find out why there was no Christian sidebar. I certainly understand the reasons for removing it, but Quakerism IS a Christian religion...a fact that many Americans are unaware of (I say this from an unfortunate amount of personal experience). I was raised and am an active Quaker; I also, along with many Quakers, eschew traditional Christian symbols.
Still, I think the symbol of the cross would not be so misleading as it's removal would continue the confusion over just what Quakerism is...the shortest answer being "A Christian faith." I'm certainly not going to demand, or even ask, for the sidebar to be put back, but I would like to see a discussion concerning its removal.
Alexander.lewis@trinity.edu ( talk) 03:16, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Certain beliefs or practices, which fit into a group of beliefs and practices which people consider "Christian", are necessary for a group of people to all believe for that group of people to be entirely Christian. Not all Quakers hold such beliefs or practices. Therefore, not all Quakers are Christian.
In Quakerism, there is a subset of people who consider themselves Christian, but there are many who do not. I do not think the "Christian series" sidebar should be at the top of the article, but perhaps in the section about Christianity.
I think that the majority of Americans who know about Quakerism mistakenly assume that Quakerism is entirely Christian. They read about it in history textbooks when they read about the Civil War, and are told that Quakers were basically Christian - which they were - but do not know that is not true anymore.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, read about Friends General Conference and nontheist Friends. Calling a group of people who, some are Protestant Christian, some are Catholic, some are Buddhist, some are Muslim, some are atheist, some are Taoist, all Christians is a big mistake. Do a bit more research, please.
This is not an article about Evangelical Friends International or Friends United Meeting, specifically. You may want to put Christianity series bars on those.
If this was about a group that could be exclusively considered Christian, I would not object. However, you cannot write fully about the history of Quakerism without including the Hicksite branch, which turned non-Christian in/by the 20th Century. You cannot write fully about the modern existence of Quakerism without including Friends General Conference, which is not entirely Christian.
There may be a time in the future when I will lift this objection - if the Convergent Friends movement becomes what it aspires to be. However, most Christians would likely find the end-product of that movement impossible to relate to Christianity as they know it.
Anyway, that's my opinion. If you have questions about any part, please ask.
Fennasnogothrim ( talk) 16:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
From my experience attending unprogrammed meetings in England, Costa Rica, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Texas, New Mexico, and Georgia, any sort of Christian sermonizing or biblical quotation in meeting is just Not Done. (Or at least on the very rare occasions when it is, mass eye-rolling, frowns and even grimaces ensue.)
There is a deep theological divide between the programmed and the programmed Meetings. Most members of unprogrammed meetings have never been to a programmed meeting. Most cities that have a Quaker meeting have only an unprogrammed meeting. I'm not entirely convinced at a gut level that these programmed meetings actually exist, and I think that most members of unprogrammed meetings share a similar sense. That is not just because most members of the unprogrammed meetings are convinced Quakers, either - the same is true of birthright Quakers. When my father attended 1st day school in Bucks County in the '50s the class visited all the local religious denominations in turn over the course of a season - except the programmed meeting. The idea of pastors and evangelizing seems quite un-Quaker to the unprogrammed sensibility - might as well become a Baptist, almost. (Fighting words :)...I kid - though only a little.) Enon ( talk) 05:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the edits to the introductory paragraph over the past few years, it seems that there are two main schools of thought. The first is to communicate in that paragraph (or via a side-bar) that Quakerism is a Christian denomination; the second, to which I used to belong, is to speak more about what Quakerism was than is. The problem with the first approach is obvious (see above). The problem with the second, I've come to realize, is that well-meaning readers click the Edit button and 'correct' the perceived omission that Quakerism is a Christian denomination - they might add strong Christian language, or a side bar. This is an ongoing pendulum. I think to stop it, the modern relationship to Christian denominations should be mentioned at the outset. I recently tried editing to say of the Society, "Today many but not all of its members, who are known as Friends or Quakers, consider it to be a Christian denomination." However, Ceiriog found my wording 'misleading' and undid it. Ideally we might replace my wording with a statistic from some survey indicating the size of the liberal Quaker minority, but, lacking that, I can't see a better approach. In summary, it's arguably impractical (given the nature of Wikipedia) to ignore in the first paragraph the modern relationship with Christian denominations. Mebden ( talk) 09:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I think a lot of the problems in this article (not just in the case of "Is Quakerism a Christian denomination", but throughout the article) comes from attempting to write one article which encompasses "The Religious Society of Friends" in all its different forms, over the last 350 years and all over the world. There are hugely divergent beliefs, practices, etc, as well as large perceptions in differences or differences in language used. This article makes the false assumption that there is one "Society", whereas in fact there is no single "The Religious Society of Friends" - there are a diverse range of individually independent yearly meetings, each of whom are linked only in that they can trace some kind of historical link to George Fox's dissent from the Church of England in the mid-seventeenth century. I have previously several times proposed splitting the article by having a fairly basic and all-inclusive short summary of Quakers on the "Religious Society of Friends" page, explaining the diverse range of organisations which share the "Quaker" umbrella, and then having separate pages for different yearly meetings/conferences of meetings (eg Britain Yearly Meeting, Friends General Conference, Friends United Meeting, Evangelical Friends Church International, etc. Numerically, the largest proportion of Friends are in the evangelical grouping, however to say that "The Religious Society of Friends" is an evangelical organisation would be clearly incorrect. The same goes all the way through the article - eg the section on marriage is specific to certain yearly meetings - the way a marriage is conducted in a Kenyan evangelical Friends' Church is nothing like the way a marriage is conducted in a British Friends' meeting. Again, homosexuality is something which different yearly meetings would consider very differently (eg contrast Uganda Yearly Meeting in 2007 with Britain Yearly Meeting in 2009). Attempting to write an article which encompasses all of these views is pretty much impossible, or ends up with an incredibly vague or incredibly long and convoluted article which does not really encompass the view of any single Quaker body. Its like trying to write an article about "Christianity" which encompasses all forms of Christianity from Quakers to Anglicans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moravians, Catholics, Evangelicals, Latter Day Saints, etc - it would be pretty difficult to write a single article which covered all that, so sensibly there are separate articles about each individual church. I think it would be much better to split the "Religious Society of Friends" article to articles on each separate Yearly Meeting or group of yearly meetings - an article on Britain Yearly Meeting or Friends General Conference could much more accurately say that there are some Friends who do not identify themselves as Christians in the opening line. I do not believe that an article which purports to be about all Quakers worldwide can really say this in the opening sentence. Ceiriog ( talk) 20:19, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the merge tag from the "Beliefs and testimonies" section. The editor adding the tag has not attempted to justify his/her proposal here, and in my view it is an obvious non-starter. Each of the "testimony" articles is worth a major article in its own right, and this article is already too large.
I am also removing the corresponding tags from the other articles.
-- NSH001 ( talk) 07:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I've visited and even made contributions to this article on occasions, and today, I've re-read some of it.
This is obviously a long-running article and there has been a lot of work put into it.
I have to say that the article has a unmistakable liberal quaker bias, both in its tone, and many of the assumptions it makes.
For example, (and I'm not intending to start a discussion on this, or an other point), a sentence in the first paragraph reads, "It is based on the idea that individuals can have a personal relationship with the divine without the need for intermediaries, such as priests, rituals or sacraments." This is essentially a modern liberal view of the basis of Quakerism, and it is not a view I have personally encountered in historical Quaker literature.
I have no objection to such views appearing in this article, as long as authors make it clear that they are representing a particular point of view within their own tradition. Another example, of such an assumption is also made in the first paragraph "It is historically rooted in interpretations of the reported teachings of Jesus Christ..." This may be true for the liberal tradition but not for the Pastoral or Conservative traditions. For them, that root is certainly contemporary, not only historical
If the intent of this article is to present the viewpoint of the liberal tradition, then it is fine, but if it purports to represent an over-arching introduction to the Quaker faith, world-wide, then my opinion is that contributors take more care to question some of the obvious assumptions that are being made when explaining facets of Quaker faith.
Allistair Lomax ( talk) 11:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Having said that, the two examples you give are I believe both correct in their context in the article and should not be changed. You comment that the statement "It is based on the idea that individuals can have a personal relationship with the divine without the need for intermediaries, such as priests, rituals or sacraments." is a modern liberal view of quakerism, but this was an idea clearly put forward by Fox and other early quakers. Secondly, quakerism is historically rooted in interpretations of the teaching of jesus christ - again this is clear in the tracts of early quakers. These two statements don't express a view point - they are facts.
Perhaps a good way of dealing with these concerns would be to introduce a section into the article that specifically speaks about the liberal tradition in quakerism as opposed to other traditions. This could be appended to the section on programmed/unprogrammed worship Jenafalt ( talk) 12:21, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I did see the disclaimer at the top of the article but also the invitation to contribute on this issue, which I did. I also said I didn't want to start a discussion on the two examples. But, as you've responded... Although the idea that "that individuals can have a personal relationship with the divine without the need for intermediaries, such as priests, rituals or sacraments." can reasonably be argued to be a consequence of Quaker faith, it is incorrect to say that the Quaker faith is primarily based on that idea, which the sentence, in my opinion, implies. Fox and early Friends stated that their prime message was about restoring 'Primitive Christianity' which had been lost after 1600 years of the 'Great Apostasy'. For them, intermediares, represented the elements of the Apostacy which Christ was calling them out of, but was also primarily about the restoration of an experience of the Living Christ which belongs to the New Covenant. On your second point, I had no intention of disputing that the Quaker faith is rooted historically in the teachings of Jesus Christ. From your response, I'm now unclear about what the article means by 'rooted'. The sentence, in my opinion, implies that contemporary Quaker faith is not necessarily based on the teaching of Jesus Christ, but was in the past. For traditions other than the liberal tradition, this is untrue, in that they would claim they are still based on this.
Incidentally, in my opinion, the phrase "historically rooted in interpretations of the teaching of jesus christ" is a very poor way of representing what I think it means to be 'rooted' in Christianity. Early Quakers described an experience of being taught by the Living Christ, himself, which is not quite the same as basing one's faith on an interpretation of his teaching. I can be influenced by the teachings of Buddha, but I would not claim a direct encounter with the living Buddha, I hope you appreciate the difference. Allistair Lomax ( talk) 13:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
On a more practical matter, my first suggestion relates to this statement, "It is based on the idea that individuals can have a personal relationship with the divine without the need for intermediaries, such as priests, rituals or sacraments." I would suggest the following:
"It is based on the idea that individuals can have a direct encounter with the divine." I would have thought that would be broad enough to be acceptable for most Quaker viewpoints.
I'm still not clear what the author, in the first paragraph, intends by the phrase "...historically rooted in interpretations of the reported teachings of Jesus Christ". So it is difficult to make suggestions. Second-guessing the intended meaning, I would suggest; "While all Quaker traditions would acknowledge that, historically, they are rooted in the Christian experience, some traditions would not neccessarily accept this as a distinguishing feature of their faith in a modern context, while others certainly would." Hope that helps. I do have comments on the section "Beginings" which I'll post later. Allistair Lomax ( talk) 12:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
1. "The Religious Society of Friends began in England in the 1650s..." It is widely accepted that origins of what we now call the Society of Friends lie in the UK Midlands, in the 1640’s. It is a popular folk-myth that the Quaker movement began in the North-West in the 1650’s. It certainly picked up much momentum there, but did not begin there. “And the Truth sprang up first (to us, as to be a People to the Lord) in Leicestershire in 1644, and in Warwickshire in 1645, and in Nottinghamshire in 1646, and Derbyshire in 1647.” George Fox, ‘Concerning the first Spreading of the Truth, and how many were imprisoned, &c. In “A Collection of many Select and Christian Epistles,...” 1698
2. “...as a Nonconformist breakaway movement from English Puritanism..” I would say that the theory of Quaker origins as a off-shoot of Puritanism is now largely discredited within Quaker academic circles. One of its chief advocates was Geoffrey Nuttall (See Nuttall, G. F., The Holy Spirit in Puritan Faith and Experience Oxford: Blackwell, 1946).
Lewis Benson (A Universal Christian Faith, New Foundation Fellowship, 2008, p8), gives one of the best discussions on this topic and demonstrates, because of major theological differences, that the Quaker faith cannot be classified as a species of Puritanism. I have not seen any serious attempt to refute Benson's views. I suppose I should have started a new topic here, sorry, Allistair Lomax ( talk) 11:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the Christian denomination infobox, which used to read the following:
Religious Society of Friends | |
---|---|
Distinct fellowships | Yearly Meetings |
Associations | World Council of Churches |
Founder | George Fox and others |
Origin | 1656 England |
Separations | Hicksite/Orthodox split; Gurneyite/Wilburite split |
Other name(s) | Quakers |
The fact is, the data this infobox is designed to convey just doesn't happen to be relevant to Quakerism: the splits aren't as important as the different groupings such as programmed/unprogrammed or conservative in the US etc. The associations it has are too trivial for the lead section, and the info on founding is is the caption of George Fox's image.
Many thanks for the effort regardless! Drum guy ( talk) 19:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
In the presidensts article, it says that Nixon could claim CO status due to his and his parents(my emphasis) being Quakers. Is this correct that your parents have to be Quakers, or is it enough to just be Quaker oneself to qualifer? TIA -- Tom (talk) 04:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
The first paragraph states Amnesty International was founded by Quakers. In fact, it was started by Peter Benenson, who converted from Judaism to Catholicism. Therefore, this is a false statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philiplynch ( talk • contribs) 17:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
This section is far too convoluted for an introduction:
There should be a short statement about the variety of beliefs in quakerism in the introduction and then this should be moved to a specific section on beliefs. Jenafalt ( talk) 08:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
i dont belive that parts should be moved as school children may wish to read about quakers, but have to switch pages just to get seperate answers that should all be under the same simple title —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.189.36 ( talk) 19:04, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm confused: quite what is the nature of the split that is being proposed? 𝐨𝐱𝐲𝐩𝐡𝐞𝐧𝐵𝑈𝑇𝐴𝑍𝑂𝑁𝐸 Ⓤ Ⓣ 00:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I see that the split tag was added on 12 August 2009 by, Ceiriog ( talk), who has a history of constructive contributions to this article. Therefore it can be assumed that while no rationale was added at the time, the tag was added in good faith.
It may be desirable to split some portion of the article at some point in time. However, at present I would tend to concur with 86.27.189.36 although for a different reason. Primarily, the article needs some work, and you would do yourselves a great disservice to split it before improving the article. Obviously it's far easier to work on an article's quality while it is in one piece.
First and foremost is a matter of adding citations wherever needed, and wherever possible. I have relocated the references out of the body of the article, following on from User:Chienlit's implementation of a reference update for the Vincent Priessnitz article on 15 November 2009, and which I have now implemented in several other articles. This makes it easier to edit both the body of the article without the clutter of citations, and the citations themselves.
For example, in the process of this exercise, I found that two separately listed citations were from the same source, one of which has a website link (Rush, 2002). Also, you can easier work on the format of the citations because they're all gathered together. However, while that is good to do, it is not critical. As long as you provide enough information so the reader can track down the original source, if you're not sure how to format it, someone else can sort out that out later. Or you can check out the editing text of other articles and pinch formats from there. That's what I did as I learned bits of Wikipedia editing. And of course, once I had made enough citations, I could raid my own examples. I would copy-and-paste into the article I'm working on, and then obviously just change the details for each section of the reference. Just be sure to 'Cancel' the editing in the article you're raiding, or use the back-arrow to take the page you're raiding back to how you found it. As long as you don't save any unintended changes, you can't do any harm. You can of course use the Editing help templates, which I also do. But I still find the need to raid formats that display the reference how I want it displayed, especially with some cumbersome or unusual references.
You can also work on the article's structure and other details much more readily while the article is in one piece. Get it as good as you can get it, and then consider what sections might warrant an article of their own. If you decide something does warrant its own article, well you've done most of the work. All you need do is copy-and-paste the text to a new article, and create a synopsis paragraph in the current article, with a link to the new article. I'm not saying anything here that most or all of you won't already know. What I am saying is, loosely speaking, that's how I'd go about it. I wouldn't create needless extra work for myself by prematurely splitting the article. I'd get the parent article as good as I could, trying to get it to a point that it makes sense to someone who isn't familiar with what the article is about. Wotnow ( talk) 04:59, 3 January 2010 (UTC)Wotnow
I haven't however created a summary for the archive as I see there is a list of summaries for each file at the top of this page. I will leave that for another editor, as I am uncertain of the practicality of archive summaries, since they are already at the top of each archived file. I will leave it for you all to decide. Hope my edits have been beneficial, -- Abie the Fish Peddler ( talk) 10:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I have seen different titles for men and women in old meeting house records. I can guess their meaning, but it would be nice if this article included them with the terms at the bottom of the article. The titles seen among the men were - Goodman, Brother, Mr and sometimes just their name. Among the women there were similar titles - Goody, Goodw., Mrs. and Sister but never just their name. Thank you. Jrcrin001 ( talk) 16:39, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
for example - neither John Cadbury nor Joseph Rowntree are even mentioned in 'List of Quakers'? These men played important roles in UK social reform ideas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.130.202 ( talk) 20:13, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Who and/or what are the Quakers? Who are the Religious Society of Friends? The intro needs to introduce an outsider to the topic... — Felix the Cassowary 09:54, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
As of this edit. I have boldly deleted the section on "Quaker Terminology". It had been marked as unsourced for over a year and the GA reassessment highlighted it as a problem (suggested that it be spun off as it's own article, but that'd require being sourced). Remembering that WP is not a dictionary or an indiscriminate collection of information I do not feel that the section is hugely important to anyone wanting to learn about the RSoF. If you really object to this, please comment. -- Paul Carpenter ( talk) 18:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to certain charities happening to have a Quaker amongst their founders. I don't think this is sufficiently notable to be in the introduction to a general article on Quakers as (a) other religious groups also have charities started by their members, they are not listed in the introductions to articles on their religious groups; (b) it is not relevant to the article as a whole - these are just a few individuals who happened to be Quakers rather than a corporate act on behalf of Quakers overall; (c) why mention that some charities were founded by Quakers - one might as well mention that two US Presidents were Quakers, or that two major UK banks were founded by Quakers, or that several chocolate manufacturers were founded by Quakers; (d) I don't think that these charities being founded by people who happened to be Quakers is a well known fact that is notable enough to be in the introduction to this article Ceiriog ( talk) 00:04, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Do quakers believe in the Trinity such do mainstream christianity churches or not ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.80.191.190 ( talk) 06:41, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
A recent amendment has stated:
The text however does not say that all non-pastoral meetings are like the first example and all pastoral meetings are like the second example, nor that all Friends' meetings fit into one category or the other all the time. It simply states that 'some' have silent worship with no leader and no fixed program, and 'some' have a pastor, readings and hymns. I think this is true, although the addition of 'human' before leader might be useful. 87.194.113.39 ( talk) 20:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the text "The growing number of Quakers who follow an earth-centered or pagan spiritual path are known as Quaker-pagans or Quagans."
Someone reverted Quakers & Business as it is said to be a charity. perhaps we need a WP article to cover the whole topic of Quakers in business and another listing "Listed Informal Groups" that are listed in Britain Yearly Meetings Book of Meetings, published each year. Vernon White . . . Talk 10:42, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
This article in general is very long, and this section in particular is rather messy and mixes several different levels of organization. I suggest that after the general introduction to FWCC, the information about the various Sections of FWCC be moved to the Friends World Committee for Consultation article.
I'm not sure what to do with the continent/country/"elsewhere" information that follows. There would probably be enough cultural/historical/statistical information to constitute "Quakers in Europe" (or "Quakerism in Europe"), "Quakers in North America", etc. Quakers in Kenya already exists, but perhaps it would be more sensible to organize by continent, rather than country, since a huge number of countries have a small number of Quakers. Cpastern ( talk) 21:07, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Religious Society of Friends was copied or moved into Friends World Committee for Consultation with this edit on 0100: 10 April 2011. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
I have reverted the last two changes.
See here I have proposed splitting this article into two—one about the Religious Society (its make-up and demographics, history, etc.) and one about Quakerism (beliefs, practices, etc.) The discussion linked before seems to support this. — Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 01:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the 19th century engraving of George Fox from the top of this article. There are two reasons for this: (1) This is an article about the Religious Society of Friends - it is not about George Fox. Although George Fox plays an important part in the development of the Religious Society of Friends in the 17th century, he is not particularly central to Quakerism today, and I do not feel that he is of sufficient importance to place a picture purporting to be of him at the top of the article. There are plenty of other individuals who have developed Quakerism since then who might have equal claim to be at the top of the article. To put a picture purporting to be of Fox at the top would be similar to placing a picture of Henry VIII at the top of an article about the Church of England, or a picture of St Peter at the top of an article about the Roman Catholic Church - yes they are important but they are hardly the central figure within either church. Quakerism has moved on a long way since Fox's day, and as the article points out - only a small proportion of Quakers today are Conservative (similar to what George Fox might recognise were he alive today) - most are either evangelical or liberal, neither of which have much in common with Fox. (2) Even if there was an argument for including a picture of Fox say in the 'History' section, this one is not it. This is an image produced around 200 years after Fox died, by an artist who never met Fox. It is therefore entirely unencyclopaedic to include this article as it is merely a fictional illustration rather than in any way showing what Fox actually looked like. It might be interesting - say - in the George Fox article to discuss various pictures which purport to be of George Fox and the likely accuracy of them, however the general Religious Society of Friends page, in my opinion is not the place for this. Ceiriog ( talk) 18:02, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I would rather see an image of George Fox than a symbol for the American Friends Service Committee. While I don't think there is one specific symbol for Quakers, this one does not seem to fit.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wildeyedredhead ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm researching the motivations of American Loyalists for my dissertation at University and Quakers have come up in most of my readings as prominent Loyalists. However this article appears to be missing any mention of the American Revolution at all: Is this simply because it has been overlooked or is it not generally approved to 'tar' present day associations with the Loyalist moniker? Henners91 ( talk) 14:45, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
As Erp has said, Quaker communities collectively refused to fight or even sign oathes of loyalty; thusly they were persecuted and mistrusted by Patriots. It's an important fact. And well done for mentioning Pennsylvania, I totally forgot that Quakers dominated the state legislature there before the war Henners91 ( talk) 14:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Hey all,
I'm a little worried that the current article title doesn't fall in-line with WP:COMMONNAME. I've always refereed to these folks as Quakers, and have never heard this term "Religious Society of Friends" used before. I did a quick poll of the folks in my office, and nobody knew that "Religious Society of Friends" was in fact the "correct" term for Quakers.
While I respect the fact that the group might self-identify as the "Religious Society of Friends", WP article titles aren't decided on the basis of self-identification. They're decided on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME.
I propose and immediate rename. I imagine there's probably been discussion on this topic before. Can someone point to it for me? NickCT ( talk) 12:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved per the common name argument below. Quakerism also appears to have support but that'll need some more discussion. -- regentspark ( comment) 14:00, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
Religious Society of Friends → Quakers – I'm pretty sure these guys are far more commonly referred to as Quakers. Thus, per WP:COMMONNAME, it would probably be appropriate to move this page. NickCT ( talk) 14:38, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm sure this must have come up before, but it's a question close to my heart, so I bring it up... while RSoF grew out of definitively Christian roots, and many modern Friends consider themselves Christian (especially among Evangelical meetings), it's not an exclusively Christian identity. The lead certainly gives the (misleading) impression that Quakers are all Christians. Is there some way to alleviate that without it becoming awkward? SamBC( talk) 21:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Actually, as a further thought, there are several elements that don't entirely seem to be from a NPOV... while it is arguably neutral between different traditions among Friends, the description of those differences is very much from a Christian POV... some bits on Liberal Quakerism seem almost judgemental, especially the mention of non-Christian Friends (the number of whom seems implied to be almost negligible, which it certainly isn't in Western Europe)... SamBC( talk) 21:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Just reading more (yeah, should have done that all in one go), it seems like the degree of controversy over non-Christian Quakers is overblown. I'm sure it's that controversial in some liberal YMs, but definitely not all... I've already tweaked wording a tiny bit to remove the implication that the presence of non-Christian Quakers is very recent and limited to "parts of the US and Europe". SamBC( talk) 21:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Are Quakers Christians? Not all of them. Quakerism has deep Christian roots, and most Quakers consider themselves Christian, but many do not. Quakers have always held that Christ as spirit is universally available, and has been at work since the beginning of creation. This "universalist" perspective is especially strong in the unprogrammed branch of Quakerism. Unprogrammed meetings are often characterized by great theological diversity, while still experiencing profound spiritual community.
The statement that Quakers have a "congregationalist polity" is incorrect. A "congregationalist polity" means that each congregation is independent of each other congregation. But this is not the Quaker tradition.
In the Quaker tradition, congregations (which are called "Meetings", at least by unprogrammed Quakers) are grouped together into larger units. In Great Britain, for example, local Meetings are grouped together into "Area Meetings", with each Area Meeting having authority over all the local Meetings in a particular area. All the Area Meetings are grouped into a yet larger unit called "Britain Yearly Meeting", which is the sovereign body, having authority over the Area Meetings.
Quakers in other parts of the world are organised in a broadly similar way, although the details will vary from place to place. The largest (and sovereign) unit is generally called a "Yearly Meeting". While Meetings that are not part of any larger body do exist (especially in parts of the world where there are very few Quakers), this is not the norm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.108.123 ( talk) 20:33, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
The article is not consistent in the capitalization of "yearly meeting." In general I favor fewer capitalized words, but I don't know when this should be considered a proper noun and when it shouldn't.--~ T P W 20:26, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
“ | However, the words for types of institutions (church, university, college, hospital, high school, bank, etc.) do not require capitalization if they do not appear in a proper name. | ” |
What happened to the section on 'Quaker terminology'? The 'Quaker terminology' link in the article on 'Clerk (Quaker)' links to the main article, but there is no explanation in the main article as there used to be. 'Quaker speak' may qualify as a separate article. MaxHund ( talk) 15:44, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
"Some Quakers in America became well known for their involvement in the abolition of slavery." seems to me a rather inadequate statement. Vernon White . . . Talk 02:09, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
The source cited states "These represent 40% of the world Quaker membership, but that is an underestimate, as many evangelical Quaker Churches do not affiliate to the Friends World Committee for Consultation.". Are there any better sources? "At least 40%", would seem to be an understatement. Vernon White . . . Talk 09:17, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
It seems that the edits made today have been to try to eliminate references to evangelical, pastoral and conservative Friends in the lead, and present the whole of the Religious Society of Friends as if the whole Society were liberal/FGC. This is a general page about the WHOLE of the Religious Society of Friends - of whom at least 40% are evangelical, around 50% are pastoral/FUM and only around 11% are liberal (and of these a smaller percentage universalist). The page and the lead should present a balanced point of view which includes recognition that the large majority of Friends worldwide would describe themselves as Christians, or would use terms such as Friends Church to describe their organisation. There is a systemic bias in that many Wikipedia editors are white, affluent, young people from developed countries, who are therefore much more likely to be universalist Quakers than the majority of Friends in the world, so there is a tendency to present the WHOLE of the Society as their experience of their liberal/universalist meeting. 94.197.127.211 ( talk) 23:53, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
This page should be edited by non-Quakers. Georgenancy ( talk) 03:23, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Reliable sources, yes. But it will take heavy-duty intellectual muscle power to discern the facts that make up the true picture of Quakerism. Beyond sources, this page needs an encyclopedic scholar of substance. Georgenancy ( talk) 22:33, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
"Women's meetings were organized to involve women in modest, feminine pursuits, and Quaker men excluded them from church public concerns with which they had some powers and responsibilities, such as allocating poor relief and in ensuring that Quaker marriages could not be attacked as immoral." The above sentence implies that women were, and by implication are still now, treated as inferiors by Quaker men. This may or may not be true with the Evangelical movement but I don't think it's accurate for Liberal Friends. At some point, women's business meetings and men's business meetings became separate but equal, with separate entry doors in many unprogrammed meetings. Saylesville, RI Meeting has had two separate meeting rooms since 1742.
"Women were treated as severely as men by the authorities." Marmaduke Stephenson and one other man were hanged on Boston Common, while Mary Dyer was whipped and released to the custody of her husband William Dyer. She was given another chance to stop preaching, which she didn't take. This is an example of unequal punishment by the authorities. It's also an example of a Quaker woman preaching unto death. Paul Klinkman ( talk) 17:05, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I have never heard of the "priesthood of all believers," and I am a birthright Quaker. 108.240.108.255 ( talk) 02:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
So add a reference or references after the statement. It is not a term that a non-invested reader will recognize, and it should include a citation. 108.240.108.255 ( talk) 05:01, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Last year, the title of this page was changed from Religious Society of Friends to Quakers. However, the lead still started "The Religious Society of Friends, or Friends Church is..." with only any mention of Quakers several sentences in. Overall I opposed the change of the name of the page from Religious Society of Friends to Quakers however the move was made anyway (see archived discussion further up the talk page). Therefore, as the change has been made, I edited the lead to reflect this so that it started "Quakers, or Friends are..." with the emphasis being on what Quakers are rather than on what the Religious Society of Friends is. This change was reverted by Georgenancy with the edit comment "Highly biased editing convoluted the information so that only insiders could appreciate it". We are therefore back to the state of a page that is titled Quakers being about the Religious Society of Friends in the lead. I would be quite happy for the name of the page to go back to Religious Society of Friends, but if we are sticking with a page entitled Quakers then the lead needs to start with explaining what Quakers are rather than what the Religious Society of Friends is. Ceiriog ( talk) 19:48, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
"In the early days of the United States, there was doubt whether a marriage solemnized in that manner was entitled to legal recognition. Over the years each state set rules for the procedure. Most US states (except Pennsylvania) expect the marriage document to be signed by a single officiant (a priest, rabbi, minister, Justice of the Peace, etc.)."
OK. What do we do in PA???georgespelvin69 16:28, 1 July 2012 (UTC)georgespelvin69 — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Georgespelvin69 (
talk •
contribs)
I haven't heard the term "liberal Friends" used before. I've often heard the term "unprogrammed Friends". People should properly be called by what they name themselves, not by what other people call them for pejorative reasons, although the name "Quaker" itself was put upon the Friends of the Truth by the British authorities. The Unitarian Universalists are liberal. I can see a liberal flavor or strain within the body of unprogrammed Friends, but I equally see a deeply religious flavor, almost Pentecostal in its nature, flowing within the same group. Sometimes the two attributes are found within the same Friends. Paul Klinkman ( talk) 02:07, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
To Whom it May Concern, I simply wanted to notify the larger Wikipedia community that within the next week or so, I will be augmenting some portions of the Quaker Wikipedia page, particularly focusing on Quaker women, which is what the majority of my research is in. I would love to have a dialogue with anyone who has critiques or changes to make to my additions.
Llt123 ( talk) 00:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Now the page is semi-protected I, as someone who's never bothered to register, can't edit obviously but "However the dominant discourse of Protestantism.[18] viewed the Quakers as" has a period which does not belong there - can someone remove it? 83.84.138.87 ( talk) 15:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Is there any reason why all of the bar charts should be wide enough to fit Kenya's bar? The middle east and americas one look particularly ugly with all that whitespace squishing the real text of their relevant sections into a little column. Europe has its own max width, for example, and that looks a lot better. If no-one objects soon, I'll make them all behave the same way (with sensible individual widths). Fatphil ( talk) 13:50, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I think more of this history stuff should be split off & put in a different place than on this main page. I think this page is too long. If it was placed on a few more pages, it would make it easier to refer to the various different parts of it. I think there is too much history on this page really. . EE 46.64.73.245 ( talk) 12:55, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
As an early martyr for Quakerism, she absolutely should be included. (EBY)/ 98.227.225.222 ( talk) 11:34, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
I am aware that there tends to be a very strong relationship between Local Meetings and higher structures (e.g. Yearly Meetings). However, the defining characteristic of Congregational polity is that the control over doctrine and practice is local and participation in the larger structure is voluntary on the part of the local congregation. More conventional congregational churches can and do form elaborate superstructures above them and agree to harmonize their doctrines and worship structures; the clearest examples are probably the Baptist Conventions and the United Church of Christ. Quaker yearly meetings are a bit more tightly bound to each other than those, but nevertheless if a local meeting wishes to go its own way, there is no "Quaker canon law" that would put serious obstacles from doing so, as would occur if a Catholic or Anglican parish or even a local Presbyterian congregation did so (for a particularly contentious example of the latter, see Presbyterian Church in the U.S. v. Mary Blue Hull Memorial Presbyterian Church, 393 U.S. 440 (1969). Lockesdonkey ( talk) 03:53, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
I was pondering whether I could find an authoritative reference for the first use of the term " Quaker," which I thought was going to be recorded in Bristol, but I thought that this reference to a " sect of women " in Southwarke sounded intriguing plausible as the source idea for Justice Bennet's sneer at Fox. Whilst I realise that there were a lot of women around who were being empowered by the circumstances of the civil wars, I then wondered about 16 year old Sarah Wight's prophecies of 1647 which were extremely popular and first published as ' Exceeding riches of grace advanced by the spirit of grace, in an empty nothing creature, viz. Mris Sarah Wight ' on 27 April 1647, second edition 27 September 1647, as described by Henry Jessey. She was a public spectacle and much noted for her astounding feat of what we might now worry about as a savage bout of anorexia [ see http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/69143 ] - and her fellow prophetess Anna Trapnell also had some strange behaviour too, and I suspect that they were more or less involved in what was a sort of religious circus side-show. They were teenage prophetesses of the laying still and looking pale sort whose behaviour was either quiet and ecstatic or loud and hysteric such as we now presently associate with ' Goths ' and ' Emos.' The publisher of Sarah Wight's book was the Fifth Monarchist and dangerously female printer Hannah Allen/Chapman [ http://www.oxforddnb.com/templates/article.jsp?articleid=57039&back= ]
It must be noted that George Fox seems to have been considered to be effeminate by some of the radically religious for his not cutting those long curly locks ... but then most of them were all dressed up in ribbons and lace themselves ! ( And just before I leave this to others, it is worth noting that by this time snippets of the Koran were being discussed and George Fox is recorded as having quoted a couple of passages from it : this tends to upset all those Quakers who are determined to make him as staunchly Christian as they are themselves ! )
From " The Beginnings of Quakerism " William C Braithwaite, published by MacMillan, London 1912.
page 57 - in text :
> 57 > " Before leaving the Derby imprisonment there is one last point to note. When examined before the magistrates Fox and his followers were called Quakers by Gervase Bennet, and the derisive name at once came into vogue. We find the word used as early as the year 1647, [ 1 - SEE SOURCE FOOTNOTE WHICH I QUOTE BELOW ] not of Friends, but of
... a sect of women ( they are at Southwark ) come from beyond sea, called Quakers, and these swell, shiver and shake, and, when they come to themselves, - for in all this fit Mahomet's Holy Ghost hath been conversing with them - they begin to preach what hath been delivered to them by the Spirit.
Fox says that Justice Bennett gave the nickname because Fox had bidden him tremble at the name of the Lord. [ 2 ] Barclay, on the other hand, tells us that the name came from the trembling of Friends under the powerful working of the Holy Ghost. [ 3 ] There is no real inconsistency between the two accounts. Fox gives the words of his own which led to Bennet's retort, but Barclay correctly states, as the 1647 extract shows, what must have been in Bennet's mind when he applied the scornful epithet to Fox. The name almost at once found its way into print in a tract > 58 > published in London early in 1652 called " The Pulpit Guarded with XVII Arguments " [ 1 ]
> 57 >
[ 1 ] Cited from Clarendon MSS. No 2624, per The Oxford English Dictionary, sub voce " Quaker." Tradition records that when questioned on the subject of inspiration Mohammed said that sometimes it affected him " like the ringing of a bell, penetrating my very heart, and rending me as it were in pieces." See Smith and Wace, Dict. of Christian Biography, iii. 963.
[ 2 ] Journ, i, 58. But in Great Mistery, pp,61, 110, he accepts the word as meaning " tremblers," saying that Bennet first gave the name, " though the mighty power of the Lord God had been known years before," and " quaking and trembling we own, though they in scorn calls us so." In the Cambridge Journ, i. 5-8 there is a strongly-worded letter from Fox to Bennet as " given up to misname the saints." Ct. past. p.119.
[ 3 ] Apology, prop. 11, sect. 8 , cf. Wm Penn, Serious Apology, 1672, p.12.
> 58 >
[ 1 ] P. 15, " We have many sects now abroad, Ranter[s], Seekers, Shakers, Quakers, and now Creepers " ; Cf. Alex. Gordon in J.F.H.S. ii. 70. The preface is dated Jan 1, 1651, that is, 1652 New Style. DaiSaw ( talk) 00:42, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
It's incorrect to state that the treaty was never violated. See the 18th century history section of the article on the Lenape Indians. It clearly states, "In the end, all Lenape who still lived on the Delaware were driven off the remnants of their homeland under threats of violence. Some Lenape polities eventually retaliated by attacking Pennsylvania settlements." Darx9url ( talk) 04:09, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't know about the Penn's Creek Massaccre, but I do know something about the 2 Paxton Boys massacres (1st on December 14, 1763). There's no question that Pennsylvanians were violently pushing out Native Americans, including the Lenape. You might even call it "ethnic cleansing". As an aside, after the 1st massacre some folks claimed that a copy of an old treaty, perhaps even THE old treaty, was found among the Conestoga's possessions (which really doesn't make a lot of sense). But there is a difference between Pennsylvanians, the Proprietorship of Pennsylvania, the heirs of Penn (who were Church of England folks), and Quakers. So the question of "who signed" the oral treaty appears on both sides. If I may paraphrase a 20th century saying "An oral treaty isn't worth the deerskin it's printed on." BTW, the"rule" of Quakers only lasted until about 1710, and just before the French and Indian Wars they all dropped out of the colony's government (until the war was over).
In short - it's an overstatement by Voltaire - but if you use a 1710 ending date, there wasn't too much breaking of the oral treaty. Smallbones( smalltalk) 17:21, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
And in March, 1722, the Colonial Authorities, sending a message to the Senecas, said: “William Penn made a firm peace and league with the Indians in these parts near forty years ago, which league has often been repeated and never broken. In fact the “Great Treaty” was never broken until the Penn’s Creek Massacre of October 16, 1755.”
@ Guy Macon and Darx9url: The two of you need to give it a rest. Based on the facts presented, there has been no consensus of academic sources to agree whether the treaty was or was not violated. Since that's the case, Wikipedia should not attempt a determination, as that would be synthesis/original research. I recommend the both of you leave this article alone. Let's leave out the "treaty was never violated" statement. Chris Troutman ( talk) 15:05, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
This edit seems to be accurate to the cited source. I'm not impressed with that source in any case and support removing the entire sentence. I don't want to see edit-warring over this, so discuss. Chris Troutman ( talk) 00:03, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
@ NisJørgensen and VQuakr: I had reverted that change because the .03% number is accurate to the cited source. Further, discussion had not resulted in consensus (in my opinion) and the in-line note that discussion is underway should also have been retained. What you're doing is WP:SYNTHESIS. Regardless, this issue isn't worth drama so I'll leave it alone. Chris Troutman ( talk) 15:10, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Quakers at large, FWCC, is not a member of WCC. Three groups are listed as members of WCC ( see list):
Therefore this page cannot be taged with the Category:Members of the World Council of Churches -- MHM ( talk) 07:56, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
In paragraph 2, it is mentioned that about 49% of Friends practice 'programmed worship' and about 11% practice 'waiting worship', what type or types of worship do the remaining about 40% practice. Duncan.france ( talk) 03:58, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
A recent mass edit [29] by Pablo.paz has a number of issues. Foremost issue is that he says he has used reference works and "the most respected histories of the Quaker movement", however, not one of his edits includes a citation, and not one of his removals of existing text is given a reason. Such amounts of unexplained and uncited edits may have been acceptable in the past. But with the encyclopedia becoming more mature and with higher standards for editing work being increasingly expected and required, additions of large amounts of uncited entries and unexplained removals of existing text is in my opinion, unacceptable. I am highly tempted to revert the entire edit. Marteau ( talk) 20:16, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
N.B. I find WIkipedia incredibly difficult and frustrating. The interface is not just user-un-friendly, it is anti-friendly. I have been dealing with it for several years, trying to contribute information and every experience ends in bitter frustration. ANd i started using computers in 1968… As a writer/editor/researcher i do not have time to deal with the barriers this system sets up. SO i just write what i know and try to make it work. For example, when i was reading this article and trying to find this forum, i could not get to it. SO here you are, the gryphons at the gate. FIne. I've done the research. I tried to enter footnotes, but none took. The previous authors, some of whom were beating hobbyhorse theories and some of whom have biased agendas --not that my biases are not inherent-- managed to put in ideas to your satisfaction. THis is like criminal court where the truth is not acceptable -- only what the judge lets the jury hear. Fine. Do what you will with the adjustments i made -- assign them a fact-checker and i will share my sources. They can add the footnotes if they can deal with the technical impediments. But do not pretend that the WIki article that was there meets high encyclopedic standards of accuracy if it represents only outsiders' hasty perceptions and not the results of 100 years of accurate Quaker history writing and research. Pablo.paz ( talk) 23:54, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Ah, the gryphons at the gates. I have just reviewed the changes i proposed and am prepared to argue and defend every one of them. I am interested, as a Friend of the Truth (Quaker), that your reversion of the article now means that the Wiki is propagating some outright falsehoods. Is it really in your powers to hide the truth and make decisions about what is or isn't factual? Maybe we should all just go back to reading the Britannica. Pablo.paz ( talk) 00:10, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I found Quaker music while new page feed patrolling, and decide to see if there was any consensus in merging that article here. -- I dream of horses ( T) @ 06:54, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
The article on Excommunication discusses the general concept of banning or shunning and has sections for the variety of this exclusionary practice among various religions including Quaker excommunication which it identifies as being "read out of meeting". However the Quaker article does not, and this seems like an oversight. In fact, there is nothing about this at all with the exception of one comment about "Quakers gone bad" being "branded a heretic" and "read out of meeting" in Talk/Archive 4.
If there is such a thing, can someone knowledgeable about this add a subsection or paragraph about this somewhere? Mathglot ( talk) 22:23, 2 December 2014 Hmm, that's interesting, my tilde-sig to the left seems to have had its timestamp omitted. I've edited it back in. Mathglot ( talk) 01:55, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Friend never practiced shunning as in some Anabaptist groups. People were read out of meeting for behavior that did not reflect Quaker practice, but it was a matter of revoking membership, not cutting ties. They could still attend and not cut off from friends or family. This is a long article, and I don't see reason to add it. 2605:A000:1313:4006:8816:5058:E141:62B6 ( talk) 02:49, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
The lead says "Many Friends view themselves as members of a Christian denomination." I would think that most Friends view themselves as members of a Christian denomination. Any objection to changing this? Anyone have a good source on what percentage of Friends do not consider themselves members of a Christian denomination? Darx9url ( talk) 14:47, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
The "many" reflects a generally FGC perspective of this article, though even there a significant percentage would acknowledge Christian roots. But the vast majority of Friends world wide are part of FUM, and clearly Christian. 2605:A000:1313:4006:8816:5058:E141:62B6 ( talk) 02:54, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Quakers. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
The page is an uneasy mixture of US and UK at present. Which should it be? Bmcln1 ( talk) 20:37, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
That will be a matter of Wkipedia policy, I should imagine hypotaxis ( talk) 10:01, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
This passes for an enclopedia entry? Wikipedia is a horrible source on quakers. Whoever is maintaining this should be ashamed. There are so many better sources.
IT seems that whoever is trying to "maintain" this entry focuses entirely on the religious aspects to the Quakers. History.com shows this to be a feeble and weak view of the Quakers.
THe fact that the Quakers were the first abolitionists in the country wasn't even mentioned int he article. To name just one defect in the article. Thank goodness there are many sources that bring to light the enormous accomplishments of the Quakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:304:6450:6DCD:3FDA:AEFC:51C8 ( talk) 18:48, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
https://www.c-span.org/video/?202202-17/quakers-invented-America
Some passages use the word "religious" where it is not necessary. For example "... a direct religious belief in the universal priesthood of all believers.[14] They emphasized a personal and direct religious experience of Christ, acquired through both direct religious experience and the reading and studying of the Bible." The word "Christian" is also scattered in odd places, such as in the section on Conservative Quakers "retaining Christian Quakers who use the plain language" as if those who didn't were not.
"Simplicity" deserves a section of its own, with sections on plain dress, plain speech and simplicity in the home -- Hugh7 ( talk) 07:43, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Quaker worship services are called "meetings for worship". They start with everybody sitting quietly. This is because they are trying to listen to God. Sometimes, a Quaker will feel that God wants him or her to say something. When this happens, the person stands up and tells everyone. Then they all sit quietly again. At some meetings, a many people will speak. At other meetings, nobody speaks. Quakers feel that a meeting for worship helps them to understand what God wants. Usually, worship lasts about an hour.
Anyone can go to a Quaker meeting.
Quakers also have meetings for worship for weddings and funerals -- when two people get married, or if someone dies. When two people get married, the meeting is about them and the life that they will live together. When someone has died, the meeting is about remembering things about the person and the life they had.
Many Quakers in North America, South America, and Africa have a different kind of worship service, like other Christian services. They sing hymns and a pastor gives a sermon. They also have a quiet time, but it does not last as long. These Quakers often have strong Christian beliefs.
and at other times these meetings also decide what Quakers should do - these meetings can be called "meetings for business", but other people call them "meetings for worship for business", because they include parts of both worship and business.
deisenbe ( talk) 16:37, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
The recent change in article name was done inappropriately. Correct procedure is to open a discussion and get a consensus before making such a major change. This was not done. Furthermore, the proposed name "The Religious Society of Friends of the Truth" is a historical term that is not in common use with any modern Quaker groups. The majority of Quaker meetings use the formal name "Society of Friends", but this is not consistent across all Quaker groups. This article name change seems to be an act of WP:OR. Mediatech492 ( talk) 15:11, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
This article's "tree [splitting/schism] diagram" (titled "Divisions of the Religious Society of Friends") refers to 5 "divisions" of the Quakers/Friends. The "Theology" section of this article describes 7 branches, via 7 subsections - one for each. The companion article Friends United Meeting refers to 6 "branches". Discussions in both articles sometimes refer to a branch by its "name" and other times by the "name of its meeting", and the connection between the two is not obvious. All of this confuses the naive reader, such as myself. (I get the impression, possibly mistaken, that in some cases a particular "yearly meeting" or particular "5-year meeting" might not necessarily be congruent with any particular branch. But nowhere in either article is this explained.)
Perhaps a Venn diagram would better show the relationships between different groups better than the current, possibly overly-simplistic, "tree [splitting/schism] diagram" does. Alternatively, a more complex "tree diagram", similar those in the Christian denomination#Taxonomy article & section might be more explanatory. Acwilson9 ( talk) 00:36, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
@ 2a02:c7f:a025:2500:b910:998c:d451:37a0: @ Mediatech492: Please stop your edit warring. Discuss the change here. INeedSupport (Care free to give me support?) 20:14, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
An editor has been trying to put this material into the article:
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term “Quaker” derives either from the Society's founder
George Fox directing his followers to “tremble at the name of the Lord’, or from
fits supposedly experienced by worshippers when moved by the
Spirit. Cf.
Shakers
[1]
References
There are several problems with this. First, the definition is not from the
Oxford English Dictionary, but from Oxford's online British and World English Dictionary. Second, the reference does not support the statement. It says perhaps alluding to George Fox's direction to his followers to ‘tremble at the name of the Lord’, or from fits supposedly experienced by worshippers when moved by the Spirit
, not that the term derived from either one or the other. (Such religious fits are not epileptic seizures, so the link is also incorrect.) Third, the origin of the term Quaker is already covered in the history section of this article. Any additional information about the name should be added there.
StarryGrandma (
talk)
20:10, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
At Wikipedia: WikiProject Council, I have made a proposal for a new WikiProject - WikiProject Mysticism. I wonder whether any readers of this article would be interested in joining this WikiProject? Vorbee ( talk) 19:30, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
What does "historically Christian" mean in this context? How does "historically" modify "Christian"? Historically the Quaker denomination has been Christian, but that as denomination it is less clearly so, now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DanMarshCTR ( talk • contribs) 00:03, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, that's about right. Groups among the Quakers have associated themselves less clearly with Christianity at various times. The article explains this. Bmcln1 ( talk) 07:40, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
I removed the star from the info-box as it gives the impression that the star is a symbol that Quakers use to represent their faith and practice – but it is not – Quakers do not use symbols – the star caption states that the star was used by some Friend’s service organizations, but there is no citation to support this - it is certainly not a symbol used by all Quakers – to have it in the info-box is misleading – unless a citation to a reliable source ( WP:RS) can be provided stating that this is a Quaker symbol, there is no justification for including the star in a general article on Quakers – WP:VERIFY – cheers - Epinoia ( talk) 18:41, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Quakers don't use symbolstests the limits of original research into outright fiction. Of course, Quakers do use symbols. Your creation of a false dichotomy between Quakers and Quaker service organizations doesn't change that. -- Equivamp - talk 20:34, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't think it's as recognizable, but if similar articles do the same, I can agree to it, with the star moved to its own section. The issue of how to describe it still exists, but will probably be easier to handle outside of an infobox. -- Equivamp - talk 17:02, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Creating this discussion per WP:BRD and pinging Cranberry Wood. Question is whether or not a {{ Very long}} tag is warranted.
The article is currently at 67k characters, and as such clearly exceeds the 50k recommendation made by WP:AS. The length of other articles on religious denominations is irrelevant (similar to WP:OSE). Remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such follows summary style. If there are other denominational articles with excessive length, perhaps they ought to be refactored as well. For this article in particular, I see a bit of a bloat in the "History" section (Would suggest moving some subsections to History of the Quakers, but that is at 48k and could possibly use a summarizing as well). Other sub-articles could be created as well to allow for more moving of sections and slimming of the main article.
All in all, I think the tag is warranted for the reasons above. Please let me know your opinion(s) and we can discuss from there. :) AviationFreak 💬 21:35, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Hello Quakers editors! I would like to start an independent page for Quaker decision-making (a.k.a. discernment, 'sense of meeting', etc.) The way Quakers make decisions has been secularized into the Consensus decision-making used by many activist groups and coops, and the Consent process used in Sociocracy. As such, I think it justifies its own page. Are any of you interested to get involved? I just started a draft. Happy for any input! DougInAMug talk 22:57, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be some discussion of pacifism in this article?
Weren't the Quakers a leading pacifist denomination at the time of the American Revolution?
I was raised in an evangelical Friends community. We had ministers, and a grandfather fought in WW I. However, the Wikipedia article on " Peace churches" says, "The term historic peace churches refers specifically only to three church groups among pacifist churches:
Sadly, I do not know enough to add material to this article on that, but I hope someone else will. Thanks, DavidMCEddy ( talk) 06:17, 29 May 2022 (UTC)