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There is a total derivation from the original meaning here. The wool, used in this expression, means these people come from a poor origin. There's some humour in that expression. It always had that part of humour. No one would love to compare himself to wool, even less if they were thinking they were part of a superior group or race. So this is an ironic term, because it tells the group doesn't compare to something great, but only indicate it is from the same origin. It would be like a non-mixed chinese man who compares himself to pure chinese rice. And not race. That's all. This is a perfect comparison. 207.253.108.195 ( talk) 02:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
All very true. The Quebecois are very honest with themselves, about themselves, and their origins. That said, there is a lot of English slurs in this "article" and it is sad that what science so clearly says - that the French Canadians are a pure genetic founder group - is ignored by bigots. We have been here for 400 years, however, and will be here 400 years in the future. Get used to it bigots. We are not going anywhere, whether you like it or not.
Merge because the French Wikipedia article redirects to Quebec nationalism. 69.201.182.76 09:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
By talking about a citizenship law in this article, the autor(s) made a link between this law and racism. But one sentence later, we can read Canada and other countries have very similar laws. This is ridiculous, there's no bad political link to do here. It should be removed. 207.253.108.195 ( talk) 02:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Canada does NOT require immigrants to learn English or French and knowledge of either official language is most certainly NOT a requirement of Canadian citizenship. However, due to the fact that Quebec has been granted (by the Federal government) significant "influence" over selection of immigrants to Quebec, in this particular case, a knowledge of French is unquestionably looked upon favourably by the Quebec provincial government - as opposed to the Federal government.
I removed the cross-link to WASP, which is not an equivalent term. WASP stands for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant as a type, without a historical dimension -- an Englishman moving to North America would be classed as a WASP (or his children would). By contrast, 'pur laine' refers to White Gallic Catholics in their capacity of descendents from 17th/18th C French settlers in New France -- a Frenchman moving to Quebec would not be 'pur laine'. Jackmitchell 14:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The Church records are amazingly complete and accurate. It is very easy to demonstrate if one is pure laine or not (and why the English bigots care so much is a mystery).
Many of you are missing the point of this "article," which is to further slurs against the French Canadians. A common pastime of the English - they've been doing it for centuries. First, it was the typical anti-French crap (lazy, smelly, etc etc.). Then it was not "really Canadian" "not loyal" etc. Now we see the latest strain of this virus: the French Canadians are not really French at all. Disgusting. That Wikipedia allows this garbage is breathtaking. These slurs would not stand for a minute if the target were another group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gen. Archibald Smythe, IV ( talk • contribs) 23:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
The expression is not deprecated in French, except when it is used to exclude non-French Canadians. A person who was born and had lived his entire life in Montreal might well be referred to as un Montréalais pure laine. A person can be "un Japonais pure laine" or "un Toulousain pure laine" (although the speaker is likely to be Canadian, because this expression is not used in France). Similarly, it is, I believe, perfectly acceptable to say that an immigrant who came from Pakistan as an adult is not a "Québécois pure laine", without that being offensive. What would be viewed as unacceptable would be to refer to his or her children, born and raised in Quebec, as not being "des Québécois pure laine". Of course, the uncontroversial use of pure laine hasn't seeped into English because it is uninteresting (and we've already got words like dyed-in-the-wool), so pure laine has ended up implying French Canadian in English. I think this should be reflected in the article. Joeldl 10:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that leaving out the e is a mistake. Laine is feminine, so pure takes an e. You would never see it without the e in French, and I don't know if the use of it without an e in English is an established practice rather than just a mistake people make when they don't know French well enough. I would favour moving it to Pure laine. Joeldl 10:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Pur laine →
Pure laine — As best I can tell, this is just a mistake. It would never be spelt pur laine in French because laine is feminine. In English, I don't know how common the pur laine form is. But my guess would be that whatever currency it has does not result from an established usage in English, but rather a common mistake. I suspect it is uncommon in carefully edited prose. The creator of the page felt that pur laine was the predominant form, however.
Joeldl 11:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
While I'm not sure that "pur laine" is outright wrong (rules of grammar are always much more complicated than they appear), "pure laine" is vastly more common, including in the specific context of Québec / Canada. This article has been renamed from pur laine to pure laine as the result of a move request. -- Stemonitis
The article currently refers to Bernard Landry as the former "Prime Minister of Quebec." While in french, the title of the office is "premiere ministre," the official english designation is "Premier." Shouldn't this be changed? 75.15.13.128 ( talk) 03:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC) You are wrong. "Premier Ministre" is the right way to write it in French. Première ministre is a feminine form.
Tru blue and Dyed-in-the-wool might be terms used in conjunction with pure laine, but they have multiple other uses other than describing French-Canadians and as such should be seperated. I cam to this page looking for the origin of the term dyed-in-the-wool. The term must be much older that the setteling of Canada and have something to do with the ability of wool to hold its color better than other materials. True blue must also refer to a quality of fabric color and not just the French-Canadians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tmpafford ( talk • contribs) 20:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Came from "Dyed-in-the-wool" too. "Sgt. Snorkel is a dyed-in-the-wool soldier", writes Mort Walker in an editorial to his "Sarge" (" beetle bailey"). In German the use of the analog term "in der Wolle gefärbt" dates back to 1517, there meaning bad boys ("so seind menschen, heiszent lasterliche menschen, und sein die, die in der wollen geferbet seind. es sol gar kostlich sein, wenn man wollen ferbt und thuch darausz macht. also seind etliche menschen in der wollen geferbet worden in der leckery und bübery ufferzogen." (Geiler von Kaisersberg). Todays meaning is less derogatory, but still intense. Kindly give dyed in the wool its own entry. -- Fritz Jörn ( talk) 10:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Using the term "Pure laine" is derogatory and implies racism, even when argued that it is not a racist expression. The term "of origin" is more appropriate, which do not induce errors such as "from 3rd or 4th generation". Saying for example "of Cuban origin" implies the person was born in Cuba and there is no importance to whether it's the 3rd or 4th generation. Using "pure laine" to make a distinction of the xth generation of origin implies that being from the xth generation is more important than the actual location of birth of the person it applies to. It has no social implication other than making distinction based on ancestry, which in the common use implies racism. Only in a research context like a Doctoral dissertation, such expression could be valued. The description should specify that the use of this expression reflects a form of racism. Mfregeau ( talk) 04:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I've rolled back two edits made by 75.206.210.76 ( talk · contribs), one in a series of similar changes that have been made in the past few days by 98.226.64.26 ( talk · contribs), 70.194.105.143 ( talk · contribs), EnglishChiefEagle ( talk · contribs), Senatorjones ( talk · contribs) and SenatorJonas ( talk · contribs) this past week. In all but two cases, these changes have been made without edit summaries. The two that feature edit summaries make some very serious accusations [1] [2]. The request to elaborate on this talk page has been met with silence. In the interests of clarity, I again ask the user or users to discuss the issues on this page, as is appropriate.
The roll back touches on several areas:
I am removing the manifestly biased portion of the article referring to the proposed Quebec citizenship of the PQ, and for the following reasons :
- It contains weasel words (i.e. "Some people think...").
- It literally has nothing to do with the "pure laine" concept itself. It's only what the author considers to be an example of racial tension in Quebec. However, it's clearly a linguistic dispute, not racial. Even if it were racial, unless the word "pure laine" shows up somewhere in the debate over the measures, it really doesn't belong in an article about the "pure laine" concept.
- The proposal is centred around possessing an adequate command of the French *language*, and has nothing to do with being descended from the first French settlers in Quebec. I'm sure there are certain articles where the author's observations might have their place, but it's not this one. 24.157.205.208 ( talk) 16:37, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:19, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
Unless I missed it somewhere, the lede does not mention the racist connotation of the phrase. The connotation is discussed in a limited way in the history section. The connection to Parizeau's rhetoric is not mentioned. I know the expression from life, where it is commonly known in Quebec that to say one is "pure laine" is often a way of saying "I belong here, but you (English/Chinese/other race or language other than white French) do not belong here. However one end not take my word for it; academic literature and popular press provides many examples to corroborate my personal experience of the phrase:
So there are 15 examples connecting the phrase pure laine to a claim of racism. This needs to be in the lede. I've also added the neutrality tag, as this article plainly to minimize some of the racist uses of the phrase-- e.g. Parizeau. --- Possibly ( talk) 23:59, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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There is a total derivation from the original meaning here. The wool, used in this expression, means these people come from a poor origin. There's some humour in that expression. It always had that part of humour. No one would love to compare himself to wool, even less if they were thinking they were part of a superior group or race. So this is an ironic term, because it tells the group doesn't compare to something great, but only indicate it is from the same origin. It would be like a non-mixed chinese man who compares himself to pure chinese rice. And not race. That's all. This is a perfect comparison. 207.253.108.195 ( talk) 02:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
All very true. The Quebecois are very honest with themselves, about themselves, and their origins. That said, there is a lot of English slurs in this "article" and it is sad that what science so clearly says - that the French Canadians are a pure genetic founder group - is ignored by bigots. We have been here for 400 years, however, and will be here 400 years in the future. Get used to it bigots. We are not going anywhere, whether you like it or not.
Merge because the French Wikipedia article redirects to Quebec nationalism. 69.201.182.76 09:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
By talking about a citizenship law in this article, the autor(s) made a link between this law and racism. But one sentence later, we can read Canada and other countries have very similar laws. This is ridiculous, there's no bad political link to do here. It should be removed. 207.253.108.195 ( talk) 02:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Canada does NOT require immigrants to learn English or French and knowledge of either official language is most certainly NOT a requirement of Canadian citizenship. However, due to the fact that Quebec has been granted (by the Federal government) significant "influence" over selection of immigrants to Quebec, in this particular case, a knowledge of French is unquestionably looked upon favourably by the Quebec provincial government - as opposed to the Federal government.
I removed the cross-link to WASP, which is not an equivalent term. WASP stands for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant as a type, without a historical dimension -- an Englishman moving to North America would be classed as a WASP (or his children would). By contrast, 'pur laine' refers to White Gallic Catholics in their capacity of descendents from 17th/18th C French settlers in New France -- a Frenchman moving to Quebec would not be 'pur laine'. Jackmitchell 14:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The Church records are amazingly complete and accurate. It is very easy to demonstrate if one is pure laine or not (and why the English bigots care so much is a mystery).
Many of you are missing the point of this "article," which is to further slurs against the French Canadians. A common pastime of the English - they've been doing it for centuries. First, it was the typical anti-French crap (lazy, smelly, etc etc.). Then it was not "really Canadian" "not loyal" etc. Now we see the latest strain of this virus: the French Canadians are not really French at all. Disgusting. That Wikipedia allows this garbage is breathtaking. These slurs would not stand for a minute if the target were another group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gen. Archibald Smythe, IV ( talk • contribs) 23:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
The expression is not deprecated in French, except when it is used to exclude non-French Canadians. A person who was born and had lived his entire life in Montreal might well be referred to as un Montréalais pure laine. A person can be "un Japonais pure laine" or "un Toulousain pure laine" (although the speaker is likely to be Canadian, because this expression is not used in France). Similarly, it is, I believe, perfectly acceptable to say that an immigrant who came from Pakistan as an adult is not a "Québécois pure laine", without that being offensive. What would be viewed as unacceptable would be to refer to his or her children, born and raised in Quebec, as not being "des Québécois pure laine". Of course, the uncontroversial use of pure laine hasn't seeped into English because it is uninteresting (and we've already got words like dyed-in-the-wool), so pure laine has ended up implying French Canadian in English. I think this should be reflected in the article. Joeldl 10:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that leaving out the e is a mistake. Laine is feminine, so pure takes an e. You would never see it without the e in French, and I don't know if the use of it without an e in English is an established practice rather than just a mistake people make when they don't know French well enough. I would favour moving it to Pure laine. Joeldl 10:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Pur laine →
Pure laine — As best I can tell, this is just a mistake. It would never be spelt pur laine in French because laine is feminine. In English, I don't know how common the pur laine form is. But my guess would be that whatever currency it has does not result from an established usage in English, but rather a common mistake. I suspect it is uncommon in carefully edited prose. The creator of the page felt that pur laine was the predominant form, however.
Joeldl 11:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
While I'm not sure that "pur laine" is outright wrong (rules of grammar are always much more complicated than they appear), "pure laine" is vastly more common, including in the specific context of Québec / Canada. This article has been renamed from pur laine to pure laine as the result of a move request. -- Stemonitis
The article currently refers to Bernard Landry as the former "Prime Minister of Quebec." While in french, the title of the office is "premiere ministre," the official english designation is "Premier." Shouldn't this be changed? 75.15.13.128 ( talk) 03:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC) You are wrong. "Premier Ministre" is the right way to write it in French. Première ministre is a feminine form.
Tru blue and Dyed-in-the-wool might be terms used in conjunction with pure laine, but they have multiple other uses other than describing French-Canadians and as such should be seperated. I cam to this page looking for the origin of the term dyed-in-the-wool. The term must be much older that the setteling of Canada and have something to do with the ability of wool to hold its color better than other materials. True blue must also refer to a quality of fabric color and not just the French-Canadians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tmpafford ( talk • contribs) 20:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Came from "Dyed-in-the-wool" too. "Sgt. Snorkel is a dyed-in-the-wool soldier", writes Mort Walker in an editorial to his "Sarge" (" beetle bailey"). In German the use of the analog term "in der Wolle gefärbt" dates back to 1517, there meaning bad boys ("so seind menschen, heiszent lasterliche menschen, und sein die, die in der wollen geferbet seind. es sol gar kostlich sein, wenn man wollen ferbt und thuch darausz macht. also seind etliche menschen in der wollen geferbet worden in der leckery und bübery ufferzogen." (Geiler von Kaisersberg). Todays meaning is less derogatory, but still intense. Kindly give dyed in the wool its own entry. -- Fritz Jörn ( talk) 10:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Using the term "Pure laine" is derogatory and implies racism, even when argued that it is not a racist expression. The term "of origin" is more appropriate, which do not induce errors such as "from 3rd or 4th generation". Saying for example "of Cuban origin" implies the person was born in Cuba and there is no importance to whether it's the 3rd or 4th generation. Using "pure laine" to make a distinction of the xth generation of origin implies that being from the xth generation is more important than the actual location of birth of the person it applies to. It has no social implication other than making distinction based on ancestry, which in the common use implies racism. Only in a research context like a Doctoral dissertation, such expression could be valued. The description should specify that the use of this expression reflects a form of racism. Mfregeau ( talk) 04:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I've rolled back two edits made by 75.206.210.76 ( talk · contribs), one in a series of similar changes that have been made in the past few days by 98.226.64.26 ( talk · contribs), 70.194.105.143 ( talk · contribs), EnglishChiefEagle ( talk · contribs), Senatorjones ( talk · contribs) and SenatorJonas ( talk · contribs) this past week. In all but two cases, these changes have been made without edit summaries. The two that feature edit summaries make some very serious accusations [1] [2]. The request to elaborate on this talk page has been met with silence. In the interests of clarity, I again ask the user or users to discuss the issues on this page, as is appropriate.
The roll back touches on several areas:
I am removing the manifestly biased portion of the article referring to the proposed Quebec citizenship of the PQ, and for the following reasons :
- It contains weasel words (i.e. "Some people think...").
- It literally has nothing to do with the "pure laine" concept itself. It's only what the author considers to be an example of racial tension in Quebec. However, it's clearly a linguistic dispute, not racial. Even if it were racial, unless the word "pure laine" shows up somewhere in the debate over the measures, it really doesn't belong in an article about the "pure laine" concept.
- The proposal is centred around possessing an adequate command of the French *language*, and has nothing to do with being descended from the first French settlers in Quebec. I'm sure there are certain articles where the author's observations might have their place, but it's not this one. 24.157.205.208 ( talk) 16:37, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Pure laine. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:19, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
Unless I missed it somewhere, the lede does not mention the racist connotation of the phrase. The connotation is discussed in a limited way in the history section. The connection to Parizeau's rhetoric is not mentioned. I know the expression from life, where it is commonly known in Quebec that to say one is "pure laine" is often a way of saying "I belong here, but you (English/Chinese/other race or language other than white French) do not belong here. However one end not take my word for it; academic literature and popular press provides many examples to corroborate my personal experience of the phrase:
So there are 15 examples connecting the phrase pure laine to a claim of racism. This needs to be in the lede. I've also added the neutrality tag, as this article plainly to minimize some of the racist uses of the phrase-- e.g. Parizeau. --- Possibly ( talk) 23:59, 30 April 2021 (UTC)