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There are two projects for improving pseudoscience articles:
keeping them in the proper balance, according to the NPOV, etc. In particular, here is a proposed format for pseudoscience articles that I think is good: Wikipedia:WikiProject Pseudoscience/Green Cheese Model of Lunar Composition. Bubba73 (talk), 14:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: To remove a potential contradiction in terms, I have substituted "system of concepts" for "body of knowledge", since it does not make sense to call something "knowledge" if you are at the same time calling it "false". Jon Awbrey 13:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Science is not limited to the physical world, that is, to the "natural sciences" or "the hard sciences" as they are popularly called, so I have made the above substitution. This may require additional clarification as to what one means by "real" and "phenomena", but these concepts have fairly standard definitions in and out of philosophy and science. Jon Awbrey 13:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: I started out with the simple intention of substituting "system of concepts" for "body of knowledge" in the Introduction, and found myself in the thicket of such a tangled paragraph that I was led to make the following additional changes.
Introduction
The standards for any system of concepts, methodology, or practice to qualify as science vary in their details from application to application, but they typically include (1) the support of empirical evidence, (2) the formulation of hypotheses that meet the logical criterion of contingency, defeasibility, or falsifiability, (3) the use of scientific method. The procedures of science typically include a number of heuristic guidelines, such as the principles of conceptual economy or parsimony that fall under the rubric of Occam's Razor. A conceptual system that fails to meet a significant number of these criteria is likely to be considered "nonscience", and if its exponents further claim the status of science for it, then they put themselves at risk for the charge of "pseudoscience".
A number of attempts have been made to apply philosophical rigor to the notion of pseudoscience, with mixed results. These include Karl Popper's criterion of falsifiability and the historiographical approach of Imre Lakatos in his Methodology of Scientific Research Programmes. Other historians and philosophers of science (including Paul Feyerabend) have argued, from a sociology of knowledge perspective, that a clear philosophical distinction between science and pseudoscience is neither possible nor desirable.
JA: Being by nature a positive person, I think that it is clearer to describe science in positive terms, and then say why a given system of concepts fails to meet those criteria. Jon Awbrey 14:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Trying to wade further into the article I found it a brew of so many brewmasters-brewmistresses that I could not make any sense of the putative arguments or variant perspectives. In particular, why do some people keep insisting that the term pseudoscience is not pejorative, that is, "having negative connotations, belittling, deprecatory, disparaging" (Webster's), when it so clearly gets used in all of those manners? From reading the previous talk on dictionary defs, part of the problem seemed to be the mutation that took place from any of the standard defs. The M-W def seems best to me as it mentions three elements of scientific method itself, whereas the AHD definition suffers from a large amount of redundancy between method and practice. So I went back to the M-W definition. Now, the word is still pejorative, but at least this definition localizes the negative connotations to an attribution of error. Still, that does not quite cover all of the disparaging connotations that are actually flung about in practice, as any observation of recent discurse on this page amply shows. Jon Awbrey 05:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: I have attempted to clarify the first paragraph in the following way:
A pseudoscience is defined as "a system of theories, assumptions, and methods erroneously regarded as scientific" (Merriam–Webster, 1950). The term has negative connotations in so far as it attributes an "erroneous regard" to the holders of the system of concepts and practices in question. Consequently, its use is likely to be contentious, with claims of ideological bias being made by one or more parties to the contention.
JA: The word "pejorative" is gone, replaced by the minimal component of its definition, to wit, negative connotations. The nature of those negative connotations is pinpointed to the attribution of an "erroneous regard", or mistaken view, to the holders of a given system. The fact that applying the word to some system-holder is "contentious" is simply the observational fact that it frequently leads to contention, however unsurprising such an observation may be. Jon Awbrey 18:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the revision to the earlier version is a great idea. The recent edits have left a bit of a mish-mash of this and that, without such clear direction as the previous version. Call it the problem of writing-by-committee.
Sorry to all those who have made the many recent revisions, but I like the clarity and simplicity of the earlier version. Phiwum 19:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Er, the clarity and simplicity except for minor bits. I've added a re-write about pejorative what-nots, but feel free to have at it. Of course. Phiwum 19:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: I have taken the WP:CON process seriously, observing a Zero Revert Rule, as I have found it advisable to do when it come to these brands of hot disputes, and I have explained every one of my edits that I thought might possibly require explanation on the talk page either before or shortly after the edit. When other editors do not exhibit a corresponding restraint and respect — using terms like "misbegotten" and acting as if their POV concerning what's "good" is a fiat unto itself — reverting several days of joint work that had about as much consensus as one could expect in this type of situation, then I believe it is time to call in another level of mediation. As I have never had to do that myself, I will ask for advice on how to do that. Jon Awbrey 19:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I have just been browsing the Wikipedia:WikiProject Pseudoscience pages. It seems to me that there is a grand chasm between perpetual motion machines and the moon as green cheese, on the one hand, and fields of alternative medicine - such as chiropracty, homeopathy and acupuncture - on the other. There are many studies relating to alternative medicine published in established journals; the results vary from noting effects to noting no significant effects (beyond placebo), but the fields are treated as serious questions needing answers. Note that the University of Bern has a chair in alternative medicine, split between three different specialties (I believe that these are Chinese medicine, homeopathy and anthroposophic medicine). I would therefore suggest making an intermediate category between established science and pseudoscience: alternative science.
Pseudoscience should include areas simply ignored by the vast, vast majority of respectable researchers: UFOs, perpetual motion machines, green cheese, and directly in conflict with our scientific understanding of the world. Alternative science, with subsections alternative medicine, alternative physics, etc., should include theories that seem doubtful to many, but are taken seriously (treated in mainstream journals, for example). String theory probably needs to go here as an unproven but interesting (and possibly valid) theory. So should homeopathy and chiropracty. They are not in direct conflict with established medicine, and there is evidence on both sides.
I feel strongly that the current polarity is partly a result of there being no middle category in Wikipedia for work that has some standing and is still under evaluation. (I would take the latter criterion literally: if there continue to be articles about a subject in serious, peer-reviewed journals, it is under evaluation and not yet decided. There are not many articles about phrenology these days, but quite a few about string theory - and homeopathy.) Hgilbert 14:04, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: One of the important "community of inquiry" issues that is being neglected here is the leveling effect of genuine scientific community. I am far more interested in process issues — both the inquiry process and the WP process — than content issues, but just by way of ancedote, I did spend a decade moving from a student statistical aide to a professional consultant, during which time I worked on a variety of health-science education and research projects, and during which time my university adopted a school of osteopathic medicine in addition to the school of medicine that it already had in place. As a purely nerdy bystander, it was all just data to me — in the beginning all the usual cliches were aired, but by the end of the decade I think that it was a fairly general consensus that the levels of training were on a par with each other, differences in emphasis and orientation aside. The plan fact is that being a part of an academic research environment exerts a pressure to prove that methods and practices work, or else they have to be abandoned. But doing that requires that all parties sit at the table. There's a lesson in that. Jon Awbrey 14:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I have made an edit to the introduction which has been reverted without comment twice. Now, I am more than willing that my edit is rejected by others, but I'd like an explanation.
I have slightly changed the language so that it reads the term "pseudoscience" is typically pejorative, a claim that I think is not particularly controversial. I don't know of any skeptic that uses the term without negative normative overtones.
Instead, the two editors reverting apparently think that only adherents of dubious theories view the term as pejorative. This strikes me as dismissive and false. It is rather more natural to think that the claim "X is a pseudoscience" is almost always a negative judgment about either X, some of the arguments for X or the honesty or scientific understanding of some of X's advocates.
Surely we can agree that "pejorative" does not imply "subjective". Many terms are pejorative while still being factual. For instance, the term "irrational" is undeniably pejorative (mathematical usage aside), but it is certainly objective in at least some of its uses. Similarly, acknowledging that calling a theory pseudoscience is a negative judgment is not giving away too much: such claims can still have objective grounds. Phiwum 20:26, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Give it up, guys, can't you recognize an unfalsifiable label when you see one? Anyone who criticizes the arguments or the evidentiary basis of any bull e-dicted by this particular Closed Circle is automatically labelled an "Adherent" of some unspecified pseudoscience or another. At least they are providing us with an object example of how that works, so maybe there's a lesson in that after all. Jon Awbrey 21:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
If you refer to the second sentence of the intro, I agree with you. But given the obvious demand for this "insight", I couldn't quite see my way clear to avoid stating the obvious right up front. Should it be "supporter" instead of "adherent"? Problem is, of course, like the jailhouse statement from The Shawshank Redemption, "Everyone in here's innocent"... Kenosis 02:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Uhhuh, and there's a process for putting 'em in thar. Hint: It no longer involves dunking chairs or autos-da-fé. Jon Awbrey 03:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, pretty arbitrary in distinguishing between pseudoscience and protoscience at times--there should perhaps be an International Court of Science to arbit these things :) Kenosis 04:05, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: There is a court like that. Reality just keeps on banging its gavel on our heads until we wake up from the drone of all the false counsels. Jon Awbrey 04:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Though there are some reasonable consensus limits to what can be gotten away with on both sides of any given spat. And of course, if one's slant has enough corporate backers, who knows what one can get away with... Kenosis 04:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Which is precisely why I don't waste my time tilting at sunday funnies horoscopes. Jon Awbrey 04:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: I previously commented on the host of intellectual errors inherent in anthropomorphism — we'll discuss the sexist implications of that term another time — but found myself roundly set upon by the adherents of pseudogrammar. Perhaps heads are cooler now. Jon Awbrey 15:30, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Hence the humor. Jon Awbrey 22:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Locally speaking, an inductive definition suffices. Jon Awbrey 22:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: And cooler heads, if you'll excuse the synecdoche, will already have noticed the same problem in the abridged reference to an abridged reference that we find here:
"Pseudoscientific - pretending to be scientific, falsely represented as being scientific", from Oxford American Dictionary, published by the Oxford English Dictionary.
JA: In the exact sciences, exact definitions are widely considered, so weasely to speak, as having some importance, and instances of paralogic are not lightly excused under the cover of "paraphrase". Jon Awbrey 15:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: I probably shouldn't try to get serious about anything this close to the twitching hour, but here is my attempt to analyze why the anthropomorphism is so akin to the galemorphism or the kerdomorphism (Gk: weasel, wily).
JA: First, a word from our sponsor:
Weasel words are words or phrases that smuggle bias into seemingly supported statements by attributing opinions to anonymous sources. Weasel words give the force of authority to a statement without letting the reader decide if the source of the opinion is reliable. If a statement can't stand on its own without weasel words, it lacks neutral point of view; either a source for the statement should be found, or the statement should be removed.
JA: To keep things general, and yet keep them grounded in concrete, real-life examples, here's a formal abstract of an assertion that I tore from the headlines of an actual article in WP.
B-ism and C-ism reject J-ology as a pseudoscience.
D-ism maintains that J-ology misconceives X.
This statement is criticizable on the grounds that it uses anthropomorphisms (A-isms) in the manner of weasel wording to insinuate pseudosourced generalizations.
JA: The statement as a whole conjoins three assertions, to wit:
JA: Problem 1. Each of the three claims has the form of an A-ism, in other words, their subjects are not the grammatical sort of nouns that are subcategorized to take verbs like "rejects" or "maintains".
JA: Problem 2. The grammatical problem would normally be solved by rephrasing. Most likely, a person who says "B-ism rejects J-ology" means to say that the overwhelming majority of B-ists reject J-ology, or that there is a tenet of B-ism whose acceptance defines what it means to be a B-ist, and that it contradicts a fundamental principle of J-ology. However, in each of these cases, the A-ism is used to cover an extremely broad generalization, as if to claim that all B-ists share a tenet that contradicts a tenet that all J-ologists share, and respectively for C-ists and D-ists.
JA: Problem 3. More signficantly with respect to the WikiPedia policy of WP:VERIFY, none of the above claims is sourced. The effect of the A-ism is to make them sound sourced, to make a pretense of sourcing them, and thus to finesse the freedom of the reader to "consider the source". At any rate, WP:VERIFY states that the burden of proof is on the editor who makes the claim or who desires to keep it in the article, not on anyone else to provide contrary evidence.
JA: Problem 4. The fact that, say, some B-ists reject some of the tenets of some J-ologists still does not mean that those B-ists reject J-ology "as a pseudoscience". All sorts of folks reject each others axioms and maxims without necessarily calling each other pseudo-anything. If the statements above appear to imply that B-ists, C-ists, and D-ists present a united front against J-ology, then it's necessary to observe the fact that they don't really say that. It may happen that they reject some of each others' principles as well, all without needing to raise the charge of pseudoscience.
JA: But enough about weasels for one day. Jon Awbrey 05:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: By exact science I mean mathematics, statistics, and the deductive ring in the big top of logic. One of the big jolts to me personally — as I took a raison detour from the exact science of mathematics and the not-so-exact science of physics through the rougher ringers of psychology, computer science, and statistics as she is spoke in the real world — was the way that the monastic monographists of exact and formal knowledge must negotiate with the world-that-goes-on-as-it-darn-well-pleases. So that's what I'm talking about when I say that. Start now, finish later, time is like that ... Jon Awbrey 15:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: To continue to continue ... If I remember correctly (a fallible assumption), the word "control", same as "comptroller", derives from "counter-roll", which refers to the practice of keeping two sets of books in the innocent sense of redundant backup copies for error-detection and error-correction purposes. This is the parchment scroll equivalent of the primitive practice of keeping an account of a transaction by notching a twig along the edge, then splitting it lengthwise with one's counterpart as a way of ensuring a bona fide copy thereof. Hence, our word "compute" by way of the Latin putare, to wit, to prune. So control is originally about error control, not messing with Mother Nature. This proto-echoes our own era's late grasp of the complementarity between information and control, or the mathematical duality between observability and controllability in cybernetics and systems science. To be continued ... Jon Awbrey 16:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: I did the best that I could, for the time being, to rubricize a complex issue on a front bumper sticker, which most folks are quite naturally trying to dodge first and ruminate later. It's usually just easier to stick with one cliche pseudotruth or another. As far as speaking to a wider congregation, not just preaching to the choir, there's a kind of a (DIYD)^2 phenomenon in that. My last day's BTT&S at relating scientific inquiry to everyday reasoning got branded and reverted as a "personal essay". So the homiletics of science is a risky business, especially when "sounds scientific" is the criterion of soundness and some people wouldn't know science if it was under their gnosis. The next generation always pays more attention to what the last does than to what it says. And you can trite me on that. Whew! Gotta go find something productive to do. Jon Awbrey 14:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that the list of fields considered on this page be divided into three separate lists (and pages). One would be for those fields that do not use scientific methodology or for which there is really no evidence. These could be termed pseudoscience.
A second list would be for new fields that are undergoing or seeking to undergo methodologically sound testing, but for which evidence is not decisive as yet. This would include string theory. These belong on a page devoted to protoscience.
I would suggest a third page for practical fields that have had some record of success, but that have not been given a theoretical foundation compatible with present scientific theories and/or for which the presently available empirical studies are insufficient. Much of what is commonly called alternative medicine would fall here: Chinese medicine, chiropracty, homeopathy. Since established universities offer specialties in these subjects and peer-reviewed, respected scientific publications discuss them (see above), these make up a special topic of their own. Research in progress might be a title for such work; they are not decided one way or another by any scientific standard, but their scientific status will hopefully be clarified as more research is done. If people feel that this group belongs on the protoscience page, I would accept this, but feel that these areas have a fundamentally different character than new scientific theories...perhaps it is simply a matter of one coming from the praxis, the other from the theoretical side. Hgilbert 17:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: This is beginning to sound sensible to me. Just by way of one comment, the term " protoscience" is criticizable on the grounds that it involves a kind of retrospective projection or post hoc revisionary anachronism. What I mean is, just as nobody ever wrote their YOB on a job application as "500 BC", nobody ever says, "Mommy when I grow up I want to be a protoscientist". So the use of such terms involves an inherently extrinsic coordinate system for describing intellectual history. Probably a measure of extrinsicality cannot be avoided — but it's important for us to keep seeing it for what it is. Jon Awbrey 17:56, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I have attempted a preliminary split into the three pages:
Please help me sorting these out!!! Criteria I propose are: Pseudoscience must be really disproven or use totally non-scientific methods and standards Protoscience to be reserved for work by trained scientists that is revolutionary or not yet fully recognized/confirmed, but also for historical precursors of modern sciences such as alchemy...recognizing that if these were practiced today they would be pseudosciences. Prescientific systems for all empirical work (including traditional and modern medical and psychiatric therapies) that has no firm scientific standing, basis and/or proof, especially where ongoing studies are taking place to determine the status and efficacy of the field. Question: do such areas as precognition fit this? I have tentatively placed them here, but they almost need their own category.
JA: I moved it to the singular form Prescientific system per local standard usage. Jon Awbrey 14:08, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
This historical material is temporarily removed from article for discussion, as it is incomplete and not fully representative of the most relevant parts of the historical discussion... Kenosis 18:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the reference to Pseudoskepticism as a valid sub-category of Pseudoscience, as described on the Pseudoskepticism page.
Phiwum, at least have the courtesy of providing an explanation for your removal of the statement. -- Iantresman 14:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
As it happens, I think the section on "Classifying pseudoscience" is more accurately to do with "Indentifying pseudoscience" which is not the same thing. It shouldn't be too difficult to find an appropriate place for the sentence on pseudoskepticism. (unsigned by Iantresman)
I think that since an article on pseudoscience considers the scientific method to be so important, that it (a) adds peer-reviewed citations where appropriate (b) applies the "Classifying pseudoscience" identifiers to a real situation, such as the Big Bang theory, in order to demonstrate its veracity. For example
-- Iantresman 17:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Just removed this from Intro because it's a bit too field specific for intro, and applies to fields involving human factors. Placing it here because of its potential value to the article... Kenosis 07:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous editor recently removed this entry from the list of "fields" associated with pseudoscience. I have reverted that removal, since we have a consensus that such edits should be discussed (right?).
Nonetheless, I tentatively agree with the edit. This is a concept or perhaps a claim, but not a field. If the list is a list of fields, what is this doing there? Phiwum 09:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: The term "pseudoscience" is pejorative. Nobody who can read a dictionary definition of "pejorative" and apply it to a case of predication could say otherwise. Could somebody please explain why they have a problem with the simple statement that "pseudoscience" is a pejorative term? Are scientists supposed to be such nice people that they never criticize other people? Or is it some wish to criticize without assuming the responsibilities and the risks of doing so? This is commonly recognized as "Man Behind The Screen" behavior — well, at least it's so recognized when other folks do it. Jon Awbrey 06:20, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: Again, I continue to be flummoxed about this. Is there something pejorative about the term "pejorative-user" (PU)? It does not say "obsessive PU", just "occasional PU", and it imparts no judgment as to the fairness or the frequency of ones PU-hood. Should we not follow Patrick Henry? — "If this be pejorative, make the most of it!" Jon Awbrey 14:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: Yes, that whole bit about "it is pejorative to call somebody a fool and/or a liar, and of course they will protest their innocence, being as they are fools and/or liars" is logically gratuitous. But it's not gratuitous in a practical sense, because there may indeed be people who do not know that the predicate "pseudoscience" is logically equivalent to the predicate "fool and/or liar", so that is why dictionaries include that sort of information when there's a possibility that word users might not know it. Jon Awbrey 15:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: The drawing up of a blacklist, an Index of Proscribed Thoughts, with no supporting arguments attached to each case, is a very non-scientific, non-scholarly procedure, and violates all of the guidelines of truly critical thinking. The hypothesis that anybody who criticizes the dicta of the Grand Inquisitor is automatically the adherent of some proscribed heresy is not exactly unfalsifiable, since people of good sense see the flaw in it right off the bat, but it is the moral equivalent of Infallible Truth in the eyes of the True Believer in (Pseudoscient)ology, not to be confused with the pseudo2science of Pseudo(scientology). Jon Awbrey 13:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Geese, is there no admins watching this? Its taking forever to load the page.
Jon Awbrey, you have made a lot of headers that could have fit in to existing discussions: please stop doing that, its made the page longer than it ought to be. (and prefacing every paragraph with "JA" is not necesssary, thats what signatures are for, and signatures work fine as long as everyone signs, and if someone doesn't just sign anonymous for them to avoid the ambiguity you are apparently trying to superflously avoid.)-- Brentt 17:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: Brentt, try to avoid telling other people what to do, and so will I. Jon Awbrey 10:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: P.S. It just occurred to me that maybe you were unaware of this, but chunking the talk page into many sections and adding only to the relevent one is one of the ways to avoid problems with browser overload, and also to reduce edit conflicts when the talk gets hot and heavy. Also, it's a good idea to add stuff at the bottom of the page rather than stringing stuff on some high branch of some old tree. 11:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: The recommendations about chunking sections and adding at the bottom are things that are suggested in various guidelines and followed more routinely in various parts of WikioPolis, but like most folks you Pseudoscientologists are very selective about which rules you subordinate yourselves to. Jon Awbrey 22:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Discussion through January of 2006 has been moved here: /Archive 2. The previously existing Archive 2 was comparatively brief.... Kenosis 13:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
And discussion through mid-March of 2006 has been moved here: /Archive 3 Hgilbert 05:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
There was no agreement as to whether veteral subluxations should be taken off the list so don't pretend there was in order to make it look like taking it off the list is uncontroversial. (specifically refering to Levine2112's edits). From the POV that the list comes from, it IS in fact a considered a pseudoscience. The POV problem is with where the list is...i.e. the pseudoscience article as opposed to the article about the POV it comes from. Your not helping the effort to adress the POV problems in this article, your just coming at it from a different POV, and I think have hurt the efforts to show the editors that have made this a POV article that it is in fact an innappropriate place for this list. I'm going to get around to getting a third party review of this if I can and when I have time to review that procedure. But the way the adherents to the pseudosciences have been approaching it, by shrilly defending their pet pseudosciences, have hurt the efforts to make this a NPOV article by making this a battleground for opposing viewpoints, instead of a sincere attempt to make the article NPOV. -- Brentt 13:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
We worked through the three categories which have now been made into three articles. Please respect the distinctions made there. In particular:
I have never heard of vertical subluxations before, but the briefest of research confirms that it is not a science or pseudoscience; it is a specialized term. In the words of this article, it is not a body of knowledge, methodology, or practice. I have no idea whether vertical subluxations exist, but the topic is objectively treated in the eponymous article.
As mentioned above, there is serious research being done on homeopathy, and there are major universities and research centers (including the NIH) that continue to treat the subject seriously. The NIH website, for example, says
-- Hgilbert00:36, 25 April 2006
"Just a misalignment ....?" Not quite, by a long shot (111 years of contention and changing definitions within the profession).
There are myriad significant differences between the chiropractic vertebral subluxation (VS) and an orthopedic subluxation. I'll name just a few of them here:
-- Fyslee 07:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I ask for a simple "yes" or a "no" and you give me a dissertation. I appreciate your POV here. Since you are fond of textbooks, here is the textbook definition of VS:
'The vertebral subluxation is the term applied to a vertebra which has lost its normal position and/or motion in relation to neighboring vertebrae. Vertebrae which do not function properly within the spinal framework generate mechanical stress. This accelerates the wear and tear on the surrounding spinal muscles, ligaments, discs, joint and other spinal tissues. Pain, palpatory tenderness, inflammation, decreased spinal mobility, and muscle spasm and hypertonicity will eventually follow.
'Additionally, because of the direct mechanical and physiological relationship between the spinal column and the spinal nerve roots, vertebral subluxations as well as other spinal abnormalities have the potential to impair proper nerve functioning. Once nerve functioning is compromised, communication within the body becomes less effective jeopardizing the overall health and wellness of the individual.
If you agree that a vertebra can become misaligned - which is scientifically proven - then you do believe that vertebral subluxations exist... for they are one in the same. And if you had an auto accident - for argument's sake - and the trauma caused your vertebra to become misaligned, wouldn't you want that to be corrected? Don't you think that the misalignment could be altering your body's normal function? Or do you think the body's overall health and well-being is not impacted in anyway by the alignment bones - particualrly the vertebra which encase your spinal cord? Levine2112 00:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Subluxions aside, what is the opinion on Homeopathy. It's a text book case of pseudoscience. Jefffire 11:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the whole list of pseudosciences is a delicate, perhaps a highly problematic matter. Removing it is one solution. Another would be giving (and requiring) substantial citations that support each of these fields being classified here. A third approach would be our being very careful (but new editors might not be) about what we put here; innocent until proven guilty would be a highly recommended practice...in other words, doubtful but not proved false theories would not be listed. A fourth approach would be to allow anyone to add anything they are quite sure fits the bill...and, I suppose, anyone to take off anything they are quite sure doesn't. I guess that the latter is the current approach. I'm not sure it's working all that well.
My experience suggests that concrete criteria are the best solution, though I could also go with the cited justifications for the classification. I have suggested that any approach about which articles are being written in peer-reviewed journals, which is studied in universities or recognized organizations (such as the NIH), or which in any way is still a topic of discussion and research (as opposed to mere derision) in academic or professional circles, should not be listed here. The jury is still out on many areas(especially health-related, like homeopathy and chiropracty), and this encyclopedia is not the place to make the judgment. Perhaps some of the contributors here could add to the suggested criteria, or modify them, and come up with a reasonable, objective set that we can all apply. Hgilbert 21:35, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
If we keep the list at all, then it should be for fields for which it is difficult or impossible to find citable support. If there is a legitimate mix of opinion out there, the field doesn't belong here. I think that there are some areas that are clear enough to be listed (Wiki policy is also to be bold ... (and be prepared to be corrected, as I am here). I'm worried about the gray areas, though; thus my wish to have objective standards. Hgilbert 05:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
(Deleted subthread upon request of other participant. It can be found here)-- Brentt 22:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I by the Category pseudoscience you mean the Platonic category, that's certainly the case. If you mean the Wikipedia category, well, it's probably been set up by a lot of the same people who made the list in the Pseudoscience article. The question is whether any sort of objective criteria have been applied to either. String theory, for example, has been described as pseudoscience by respected scientists because of its lack of verifiability. Lack of verifiability is normally a clear sign of a pseudoscience. So what are the criteria here? It does seem to come down to a very arbitrary collection based upon the subjective choices: a pseudoscientific list of pseudosciences. 24.190.149.18 01:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that we need to give a fuller and above all a more differentiated picture than a list offers. I have attempted to give a more differentiated stance to three of the subjects; I would hope that the article will eventually have such a description for all the fields on the list. Please feel free to add more evidence on any side; it will need this to achieve a balanced picture. I hope that everyone will agree that more information can only be better under the circumstances. Please do not add rank and unsubstantiated opinions to the page, however (and let me know if I have unwittingly done so!) Hgilbert 03:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Wait a minute! If I read you right, you are saying that this article should only include one point of view because 'it is about the scientific POV'. There is no justification for excluding other points of view in Wikipedia. The list in its current form does so. The fact that major universities (Exeter in England, Bern in Switzerland, Bridgeport in the USA) teach homeopathy, that in France:
and that in all countries I know of (including the USA), homeopathic physicians are allowed to practice medicine is completely ignored; Either we include multiple POVs on the page itself or I'd like to take this into arbitration. The page as it stands is contrary to Wikipedia policy. Hgilbert 00:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
It is about pseudoscience. There are many points of view about what should be included in pseudoscience. If you want to write an article about a POV, do so. This one is article Pseudoscience. Hgilbert 00:35, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
For me, at least, there is a distinction between moon as green cheese, articles about which do not appear in any scientific journal (pro or con) and courses about which do not exist in physics departments of any universities, and homeopathy, articles about which do appear in all medical journals (indicating that it is a topic of scientific discourse even if the evidence is uncertain or weak (as it is for string theory, ladies and gentlemen), and which is taught at eight French medical schools (most of them in France, I believe) as well as at least the Creighton University School of Medicine (based on a quick web search; there may be other schools) in the US of A. Homeopathic medicines and treatment are covered by essentially all insurers in Germany. The list goes on...it is treated as a serious contender, though an unproved area, rather than a goofball subject, by many, many respectable agencies. (If you don't consider insurance companies respectable, ignore the last mention.) Do you fathom this distinction?
Rereading this section, however, I see that there are serious concerns by many users about the list itself. In view of this, the suggestion to move it to a separate page on scientific skepticism seems to me an excellent one. Hgilbert 02:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
If you consider the idea that there are 6-7 effectively invisible extra dimensions to space a plausible mechanism ;) But I agree with you, taking the wider view, the whole list is beginning to seem severely misplaced and problematic. Hgilbert 03:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
If Hgilbert will do his research better, he'll see that Creighton's coverage of homeopathy is very critical. -- Fyslee 04:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is cybernetics on the list of pseudosciences?
When I first saw this added my first reaction was what the...!? thats ridiculous!. But then I thought about the title of this list being "fields associated with pseudo-science" and then thought, well strictly speaking, string theory, while most emphatically not a pseudo-science, is often associated with pseudo-science. Not with the auspices of actual string theorists of course, but by New Agers who read a popularization of it and think that their misunderstanding of it reinforces their views (they do it with QM and relativity of course too). But of course, despite the title, I don't think thats what the list is supposed to be about. The term associated probably shouldn't be in there. It does nothing to mitigate the POV of the list (and I do think the list is from a particular POV as I've said before.) But if the list is going to be up, there is no sense of saying "associated with". Maybe "alleged to be", if you want to keep of the facade that the list isn't POV. -- Brentt 20:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
This is unrelated to the POV issue. But I changed the name of the list to Fields alleged to be pseudoscientific and phenomena associated with pseudoscientific methods of study. The main change being so things like UFO's,Telekenisis, and Perpetual motion can be included without any awkward qualifiers, since they are obviously of interest but aren't pseudosciences per se. I thought it would be a uncontroversial change. Hope I'm right? -- Brentt 20:50, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's see: who is in favor of stripping off the list to another, possibly more appropriate page? Hgilbert 00:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee, it appears that you are the only one who really supports this list being on this page. Can you accept our moving it to the skepticism article graciously? Hgilbert 02:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Sure. No point in being the only skeptic who supports providing examples. I expect the next step will be to redefine pseudoscience? --
Fyslee 05:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your gracious skepticism. By the way, I think the definition of pseudoscience is rather good at this point; we've all contributed to this effectively :) Hgilbert 06:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Keep the list here. How can you have an article on Pseudoscience without providing the reader with an idea of which subjects are consensually considered to be Pseudoscience . Lumos3 06:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Bad idea moving it. Keep. Jefffire 11:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
We have seen that there is a lack on concensus on some items, and a feeling amongst several editors here that the list is inherently POV-biased. I happen to believe it would be possible to have a list that included items for which there is essentially universal concensus, and then more differentiated presentations of mixed situations (like homeopathy, for which respected medical journals publish studies, and about which respected medical schools - such as most of those in France - offer courses of study and professional certification). This approach didn't work. There is an existing list of alternative, disputed and speculative theories. Since the people at the scientific skepticism site don't want the list here, perhaps a link to the existing list is best.
In any case, we had reached a concensus on this talk page...please find a new concensus before moving it back. Hgilbert 11:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Keep it here. I just reverted the deletion. The current discussion (this thread) is less than two days old and I see no consensus. Vsmith 11:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm in favor of kepping the list here. Why not have some examples of the topic of the article? If you want to include some improper uses of the word,those can be included if they are labeled. Bubba73 (talk), 23:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, good point, Levine; are we prepared to let anybody add any items that have been criticized by somebody for being a pseudoscience to this list? What are the objective criteria? Hgilbert 01:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I Don't think that characterology is notable enough to warrent inclusion in the list. Jefffire 13:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to nominate Anthroposophy for inclusion in the list on this page. It was called spiritual science by its founder Rudolf Steiner and continues to claim this description today but follows none of the methods used by science. Particulalry it violates reproducibility since all its observations are subjective. I do not say it is without value merely that it is not a science yet masquerades as one. Lumos3 12:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
It follows many of the methods used by science, and its natural-scientific observations are objective and phenomenological. For example, anthroposophical medicine has produced remedies based on mistletoe extracts that have been shown to be effective in combating tumors; there are numerous peer-reviewed studies of this, as I have shown elsewhere:
There are various anthroposophical discoveries, such as Flow forms that create rhythmic motion through purely (passive) geometric forms, Oloids that are unusually efficient mixers, etc. that are reproducible and have been reproduced by numerous researchers. The list goes on and on.
Anthroposophical spiritual research is not able to be validated directly, of course, but results such as the above are, and have been. As long as these ultimate results are reproducible and shown to be valid, it must be regarded as in some sense scientific. Hgilbert 02:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
A curious response to the above citations, which include summaries like:
in a research report by the Stadtische Kliniken, Department of Neurosurgery, Koln, Germany and published in The International Journal of Cancer Research and Treatment. Hgilbert 00:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
There is as much dispute about the neutrality of the points of view represented in this article as anywhere I've seen in Wikipedia. A NPOV label is simply descriptive of the current controversy. Hgilbert 23:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The NPOV label addresses the question about whether such a list can be made without differentiated discussion about each item; by default, it asserts a single point of view about each of the items under discussion. As long as a list that excludes such differentiated discussion - and when the latter has been added, it has been removed - remains in the current form, there is a clear violation of the NPOV policy.
In addition, the NPOV label simply says that the material is disputed; this talk page is evidence of this. Hgilbert 11:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it may be time to get rid of this list. What are the editors here, judge jury and executioner?? And to then hide behind statements like "fields often called pseudoscience, or "often accused of being pesudoscience" ?? With the presentation of this list, a reasonable article unfortunately turns into a self-appointed consumer protection service that operates without any serious empirical methods in and of itself! Now, you tell me, what class of enterprise does that remind you of? Personally, it reminds me of ... pseudoscience . ... Kenosis 11:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
What does that statement intend to mean? "what science has to say...". Scientific organizations do not, as a general rule, take official positions on what is "pseudoscience" and what is not... Kenosis 12:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this assessment. Perhaps the list could be saved by introducing it as follows:
Otherwise I agree that it clearly violates the NPOV policy.
Hgilbert 10:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps that last comment illustrates the challenges here. Some people are convinced that there is a single 'scientific' POV. That is a view most commonly associated with popularizations of science, not with serious scientists, however.
It seems to me that the criticisms of homeopathy as a pseudoscience are largely based on its theory being implausible, or on the weakly or unverified efficacy - in other words, that it is 'incorrect'- and not, for example, upon any of the many justifications for a field being termed pseudoscience listed in this article. This is exactly why some of us are arguing that it does not belong in this list; it is as scientific in its approach as traditional medicine (under any treatment regime, some get better, some don't; there are conventional medicines that turn out to be ineffective or even dangerous); the real question is whether it works or not. As in the case of supersymmetry, or string theory, a novel theory with no evidence to back it up is simply tested and either confirmed or rejected when sufficient evidence is there, but not attacked as being pseudoscientific so long as evidence is sought and respected. The relatively frequent presence of homeopathic studies in respected medical and scientific journals shows that the latter is the case.
If the standards of the article were followed more carefully in the list, we'd have less of an issue here. Hgilbert 00:17, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
What homeopathic studies have been found fraudulent? I think you are misunderstanding the meta-analysis, which showed that the efficacy demonstrated by certain studies - many were excluded for methodological reasons - was within the range also shown by administration of placebos. The meta-analysis is itself contested, but in any case there was no mention of fraud. Hgilbert 17:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Rational include:
Hgilbert 01:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the suggestion to move that article here, as per the discussion on the relevant discussion page, that article does not belong here but represents another stage in the scientific process. It is sourced, the concept exists and is separate from "pseudoscience". Why confuse the two??? Haiduc 11:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Unless you're an unreconstructed postmodernist with a bad education, arguing in the 21 century that science is inherently POV leaves you floundering with Locke and Berkerley, who, with Johnson I refute thus: blathering armchair pontificators. This is a short way of saying the list is not POV, it is defined by mainstream science like it or not. The article shouldn't be merged. I support Jefffire. Mccready 13:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
And yes, there are strong contrary POVs within the medical community of other countries, for example, about homeopathy, which is taught in mainstream medical schools in India, France and Switzerland (U of Bern). There is a strong temptation for US citizens to assume that the US sets the standard for the world and to ignore other cultures. (NPOV = MPOV = USPOV) Hgilbert 08:42, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
We get the same in here Hong Kong. The traditional medicine people don't try to get a science certificate though. But the alternative doctors in the west are always doing the crossing the line. They pretend all the time to be clinical and proved by science and it is wrong. Hylas Chung 08:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Not sure if its a good idea to list it here, but it seems relavant to current discussions so here goes. -- Salix alba ( talk) 22:24, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes thank you I had a talk on the discussion. Thanks Hylas Chung 08:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
[Note: this post copied from my User page ]
Are we supposed to take this seriously as a source:--> http://archivefreedom.org/
Claims there is some kind of " blacklist" in physics preventing certain physicists from publishing work. This clearly shows a grave misunderstanding of the scientific method. Anyone is free to publish -- as long as it is science. Overturning a paradigm will earn you fame, and if true, a theory will stand up to critical peer review.
All the website shows is that certain pseudoscientists have a bizarre conspiracy theory of science, and instead of doing science, pseudoscientists scream like children about how they are being "censored"? — Dunc| ☺ 19:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we may wish to have an article on mainstream science. This would serve as a good counterbalance and would be an excellent reference for articles that straddle the boundary between innovation and quackery (certain ecology ideas and psychoanalysis proposals come to mind). Any thoughts on this? -- ScienceApologist 17:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Per the suggestion of others, I've redacted irrelevant comments to their own section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ScienceApologist ( talk • contribs) .
Who judges who is on the "inside", or what is considered "consensus"? According to the literature, a consensus of papers still considers comets to be dirty snowballs, and " 2003 UB313" has less papers about it that Halton Arp has published on intrinsic redshift -- Iantresman 19:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
User:Kenosis, why do you want to remove pseudoarchealogy from the list? Can you explain your reasoning? When I compiled some watchlists dealing with pseudoscience, I had a large number which I thought of as pseudoarchaeology. --- CH 06:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi Hillman and Arthur. I'm not wedded to that decision to remove. But my objective is twofold:
But like I said, I'm not wedded to the edit, and found Arthur Rubin's choice to put it in "see also" to be a reasonable decision in this case... Kenosis 14:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
There are two projects for improving pseudoscience articles:
keeping them in the proper balance, according to the NPOV, etc. In particular, here is a proposed format for pseudoscience articles that I think is good: Wikipedia:WikiProject Pseudoscience/Green Cheese Model of Lunar Composition. Bubba73 (talk), 14:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: To remove a potential contradiction in terms, I have substituted "system of concepts" for "body of knowledge", since it does not make sense to call something "knowledge" if you are at the same time calling it "false". Jon Awbrey 13:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Science is not limited to the physical world, that is, to the "natural sciences" or "the hard sciences" as they are popularly called, so I have made the above substitution. This may require additional clarification as to what one means by "real" and "phenomena", but these concepts have fairly standard definitions in and out of philosophy and science. Jon Awbrey 13:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: I started out with the simple intention of substituting "system of concepts" for "body of knowledge" in the Introduction, and found myself in the thicket of such a tangled paragraph that I was led to make the following additional changes.
Introduction
The standards for any system of concepts, methodology, or practice to qualify as science vary in their details from application to application, but they typically include (1) the support of empirical evidence, (2) the formulation of hypotheses that meet the logical criterion of contingency, defeasibility, or falsifiability, (3) the use of scientific method. The procedures of science typically include a number of heuristic guidelines, such as the principles of conceptual economy or parsimony that fall under the rubric of Occam's Razor. A conceptual system that fails to meet a significant number of these criteria is likely to be considered "nonscience", and if its exponents further claim the status of science for it, then they put themselves at risk for the charge of "pseudoscience".
A number of attempts have been made to apply philosophical rigor to the notion of pseudoscience, with mixed results. These include Karl Popper's criterion of falsifiability and the historiographical approach of Imre Lakatos in his Methodology of Scientific Research Programmes. Other historians and philosophers of science (including Paul Feyerabend) have argued, from a sociology of knowledge perspective, that a clear philosophical distinction between science and pseudoscience is neither possible nor desirable.
JA: Being by nature a positive person, I think that it is clearer to describe science in positive terms, and then say why a given system of concepts fails to meet those criteria. Jon Awbrey 14:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Trying to wade further into the article I found it a brew of so many brewmasters-brewmistresses that I could not make any sense of the putative arguments or variant perspectives. In particular, why do some people keep insisting that the term pseudoscience is not pejorative, that is, "having negative connotations, belittling, deprecatory, disparaging" (Webster's), when it so clearly gets used in all of those manners? From reading the previous talk on dictionary defs, part of the problem seemed to be the mutation that took place from any of the standard defs. The M-W def seems best to me as it mentions three elements of scientific method itself, whereas the AHD definition suffers from a large amount of redundancy between method and practice. So I went back to the M-W definition. Now, the word is still pejorative, but at least this definition localizes the negative connotations to an attribution of error. Still, that does not quite cover all of the disparaging connotations that are actually flung about in practice, as any observation of recent discurse on this page amply shows. Jon Awbrey 05:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: I have attempted to clarify the first paragraph in the following way:
A pseudoscience is defined as "a system of theories, assumptions, and methods erroneously regarded as scientific" (Merriam–Webster, 1950). The term has negative connotations in so far as it attributes an "erroneous regard" to the holders of the system of concepts and practices in question. Consequently, its use is likely to be contentious, with claims of ideological bias being made by one or more parties to the contention.
JA: The word "pejorative" is gone, replaced by the minimal component of its definition, to wit, negative connotations. The nature of those negative connotations is pinpointed to the attribution of an "erroneous regard", or mistaken view, to the holders of a given system. The fact that applying the word to some system-holder is "contentious" is simply the observational fact that it frequently leads to contention, however unsurprising such an observation may be. Jon Awbrey 18:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the revision to the earlier version is a great idea. The recent edits have left a bit of a mish-mash of this and that, without such clear direction as the previous version. Call it the problem of writing-by-committee.
Sorry to all those who have made the many recent revisions, but I like the clarity and simplicity of the earlier version. Phiwum 19:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Er, the clarity and simplicity except for minor bits. I've added a re-write about pejorative what-nots, but feel free to have at it. Of course. Phiwum 19:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: I have taken the WP:CON process seriously, observing a Zero Revert Rule, as I have found it advisable to do when it come to these brands of hot disputes, and I have explained every one of my edits that I thought might possibly require explanation on the talk page either before or shortly after the edit. When other editors do not exhibit a corresponding restraint and respect — using terms like "misbegotten" and acting as if their POV concerning what's "good" is a fiat unto itself — reverting several days of joint work that had about as much consensus as one could expect in this type of situation, then I believe it is time to call in another level of mediation. As I have never had to do that myself, I will ask for advice on how to do that. Jon Awbrey 19:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I have just been browsing the Wikipedia:WikiProject Pseudoscience pages. It seems to me that there is a grand chasm between perpetual motion machines and the moon as green cheese, on the one hand, and fields of alternative medicine - such as chiropracty, homeopathy and acupuncture - on the other. There are many studies relating to alternative medicine published in established journals; the results vary from noting effects to noting no significant effects (beyond placebo), but the fields are treated as serious questions needing answers. Note that the University of Bern has a chair in alternative medicine, split between three different specialties (I believe that these are Chinese medicine, homeopathy and anthroposophic medicine). I would therefore suggest making an intermediate category between established science and pseudoscience: alternative science.
Pseudoscience should include areas simply ignored by the vast, vast majority of respectable researchers: UFOs, perpetual motion machines, green cheese, and directly in conflict with our scientific understanding of the world. Alternative science, with subsections alternative medicine, alternative physics, etc., should include theories that seem doubtful to many, but are taken seriously (treated in mainstream journals, for example). String theory probably needs to go here as an unproven but interesting (and possibly valid) theory. So should homeopathy and chiropracty. They are not in direct conflict with established medicine, and there is evidence on both sides.
I feel strongly that the current polarity is partly a result of there being no middle category in Wikipedia for work that has some standing and is still under evaluation. (I would take the latter criterion literally: if there continue to be articles about a subject in serious, peer-reviewed journals, it is under evaluation and not yet decided. There are not many articles about phrenology these days, but quite a few about string theory - and homeopathy.) Hgilbert 14:04, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: One of the important "community of inquiry" issues that is being neglected here is the leveling effect of genuine scientific community. I am far more interested in process issues — both the inquiry process and the WP process — than content issues, but just by way of ancedote, I did spend a decade moving from a student statistical aide to a professional consultant, during which time I worked on a variety of health-science education and research projects, and during which time my university adopted a school of osteopathic medicine in addition to the school of medicine that it already had in place. As a purely nerdy bystander, it was all just data to me — in the beginning all the usual cliches were aired, but by the end of the decade I think that it was a fairly general consensus that the levels of training were on a par with each other, differences in emphasis and orientation aside. The plan fact is that being a part of an academic research environment exerts a pressure to prove that methods and practices work, or else they have to be abandoned. But doing that requires that all parties sit at the table. There's a lesson in that. Jon Awbrey 14:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I have made an edit to the introduction which has been reverted without comment twice. Now, I am more than willing that my edit is rejected by others, but I'd like an explanation.
I have slightly changed the language so that it reads the term "pseudoscience" is typically pejorative, a claim that I think is not particularly controversial. I don't know of any skeptic that uses the term without negative normative overtones.
Instead, the two editors reverting apparently think that only adherents of dubious theories view the term as pejorative. This strikes me as dismissive and false. It is rather more natural to think that the claim "X is a pseudoscience" is almost always a negative judgment about either X, some of the arguments for X or the honesty or scientific understanding of some of X's advocates.
Surely we can agree that "pejorative" does not imply "subjective". Many terms are pejorative while still being factual. For instance, the term "irrational" is undeniably pejorative (mathematical usage aside), but it is certainly objective in at least some of its uses. Similarly, acknowledging that calling a theory pseudoscience is a negative judgment is not giving away too much: such claims can still have objective grounds. Phiwum 20:26, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Give it up, guys, can't you recognize an unfalsifiable label when you see one? Anyone who criticizes the arguments or the evidentiary basis of any bull e-dicted by this particular Closed Circle is automatically labelled an "Adherent" of some unspecified pseudoscience or another. At least they are providing us with an object example of how that works, so maybe there's a lesson in that after all. Jon Awbrey 21:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
If you refer to the second sentence of the intro, I agree with you. But given the obvious demand for this "insight", I couldn't quite see my way clear to avoid stating the obvious right up front. Should it be "supporter" instead of "adherent"? Problem is, of course, like the jailhouse statement from The Shawshank Redemption, "Everyone in here's innocent"... Kenosis 02:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Uhhuh, and there's a process for putting 'em in thar. Hint: It no longer involves dunking chairs or autos-da-fé. Jon Awbrey 03:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, pretty arbitrary in distinguishing between pseudoscience and protoscience at times--there should perhaps be an International Court of Science to arbit these things :) Kenosis 04:05, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: There is a court like that. Reality just keeps on banging its gavel on our heads until we wake up from the drone of all the false counsels. Jon Awbrey 04:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Though there are some reasonable consensus limits to what can be gotten away with on both sides of any given spat. And of course, if one's slant has enough corporate backers, who knows what one can get away with... Kenosis 04:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Which is precisely why I don't waste my time tilting at sunday funnies horoscopes. Jon Awbrey 04:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: I previously commented on the host of intellectual errors inherent in anthropomorphism — we'll discuss the sexist implications of that term another time — but found myself roundly set upon by the adherents of pseudogrammar. Perhaps heads are cooler now. Jon Awbrey 15:30, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Hence the humor. Jon Awbrey 22:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: Locally speaking, an inductive definition suffices. Jon Awbrey 22:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: And cooler heads, if you'll excuse the synecdoche, will already have noticed the same problem in the abridged reference to an abridged reference that we find here:
"Pseudoscientific - pretending to be scientific, falsely represented as being scientific", from Oxford American Dictionary, published by the Oxford English Dictionary.
JA: In the exact sciences, exact definitions are widely considered, so weasely to speak, as having some importance, and instances of paralogic are not lightly excused under the cover of "paraphrase". Jon Awbrey 15:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: I probably shouldn't try to get serious about anything this close to the twitching hour, but here is my attempt to analyze why the anthropomorphism is so akin to the galemorphism or the kerdomorphism (Gk: weasel, wily).
JA: First, a word from our sponsor:
Weasel words are words or phrases that smuggle bias into seemingly supported statements by attributing opinions to anonymous sources. Weasel words give the force of authority to a statement without letting the reader decide if the source of the opinion is reliable. If a statement can't stand on its own without weasel words, it lacks neutral point of view; either a source for the statement should be found, or the statement should be removed.
JA: To keep things general, and yet keep them grounded in concrete, real-life examples, here's a formal abstract of an assertion that I tore from the headlines of an actual article in WP.
B-ism and C-ism reject J-ology as a pseudoscience.
D-ism maintains that J-ology misconceives X.
This statement is criticizable on the grounds that it uses anthropomorphisms (A-isms) in the manner of weasel wording to insinuate pseudosourced generalizations.
JA: The statement as a whole conjoins three assertions, to wit:
JA: Problem 1. Each of the three claims has the form of an A-ism, in other words, their subjects are not the grammatical sort of nouns that are subcategorized to take verbs like "rejects" or "maintains".
JA: Problem 2. The grammatical problem would normally be solved by rephrasing. Most likely, a person who says "B-ism rejects J-ology" means to say that the overwhelming majority of B-ists reject J-ology, or that there is a tenet of B-ism whose acceptance defines what it means to be a B-ist, and that it contradicts a fundamental principle of J-ology. However, in each of these cases, the A-ism is used to cover an extremely broad generalization, as if to claim that all B-ists share a tenet that contradicts a tenet that all J-ologists share, and respectively for C-ists and D-ists.
JA: Problem 3. More signficantly with respect to the WikiPedia policy of WP:VERIFY, none of the above claims is sourced. The effect of the A-ism is to make them sound sourced, to make a pretense of sourcing them, and thus to finesse the freedom of the reader to "consider the source". At any rate, WP:VERIFY states that the burden of proof is on the editor who makes the claim or who desires to keep it in the article, not on anyone else to provide contrary evidence.
JA: Problem 4. The fact that, say, some B-ists reject some of the tenets of some J-ologists still does not mean that those B-ists reject J-ology "as a pseudoscience". All sorts of folks reject each others axioms and maxims without necessarily calling each other pseudo-anything. If the statements above appear to imply that B-ists, C-ists, and D-ists present a united front against J-ology, then it's necessary to observe the fact that they don't really say that. It may happen that they reject some of each others' principles as well, all without needing to raise the charge of pseudoscience.
JA: But enough about weasels for one day. Jon Awbrey 05:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: By exact science I mean mathematics, statistics, and the deductive ring in the big top of logic. One of the big jolts to me personally — as I took a raison detour from the exact science of mathematics and the not-so-exact science of physics through the rougher ringers of psychology, computer science, and statistics as she is spoke in the real world — was the way that the monastic monographists of exact and formal knowledge must negotiate with the world-that-goes-on-as-it-darn-well-pleases. So that's what I'm talking about when I say that. Start now, finish later, time is like that ... Jon Awbrey 15:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: To continue to continue ... If I remember correctly (a fallible assumption), the word "control", same as "comptroller", derives from "counter-roll", which refers to the practice of keeping two sets of books in the innocent sense of redundant backup copies for error-detection and error-correction purposes. This is the parchment scroll equivalent of the primitive practice of keeping an account of a transaction by notching a twig along the edge, then splitting it lengthwise with one's counterpart as a way of ensuring a bona fide copy thereof. Hence, our word "compute" by way of the Latin putare, to wit, to prune. So control is originally about error control, not messing with Mother Nature. This proto-echoes our own era's late grasp of the complementarity between information and control, or the mathematical duality between observability and controllability in cybernetics and systems science. To be continued ... Jon Awbrey 16:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: I did the best that I could, for the time being, to rubricize a complex issue on a front bumper sticker, which most folks are quite naturally trying to dodge first and ruminate later. It's usually just easier to stick with one cliche pseudotruth or another. As far as speaking to a wider congregation, not just preaching to the choir, there's a kind of a (DIYD)^2 phenomenon in that. My last day's BTT&S at relating scientific inquiry to everyday reasoning got branded and reverted as a "personal essay". So the homiletics of science is a risky business, especially when "sounds scientific" is the criterion of soundness and some people wouldn't know science if it was under their gnosis. The next generation always pays more attention to what the last does than to what it says. And you can trite me on that. Whew! Gotta go find something productive to do. Jon Awbrey 14:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that the list of fields considered on this page be divided into three separate lists (and pages). One would be for those fields that do not use scientific methodology or for which there is really no evidence. These could be termed pseudoscience.
A second list would be for new fields that are undergoing or seeking to undergo methodologically sound testing, but for which evidence is not decisive as yet. This would include string theory. These belong on a page devoted to protoscience.
I would suggest a third page for practical fields that have had some record of success, but that have not been given a theoretical foundation compatible with present scientific theories and/or for which the presently available empirical studies are insufficient. Much of what is commonly called alternative medicine would fall here: Chinese medicine, chiropracty, homeopathy. Since established universities offer specialties in these subjects and peer-reviewed, respected scientific publications discuss them (see above), these make up a special topic of their own. Research in progress might be a title for such work; they are not decided one way or another by any scientific standard, but their scientific status will hopefully be clarified as more research is done. If people feel that this group belongs on the protoscience page, I would accept this, but feel that these areas have a fundamentally different character than new scientific theories...perhaps it is simply a matter of one coming from the praxis, the other from the theoretical side. Hgilbert 17:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
JA: This is beginning to sound sensible to me. Just by way of one comment, the term " protoscience" is criticizable on the grounds that it involves a kind of retrospective projection or post hoc revisionary anachronism. What I mean is, just as nobody ever wrote their YOB on a job application as "500 BC", nobody ever says, "Mommy when I grow up I want to be a protoscientist". So the use of such terms involves an inherently extrinsic coordinate system for describing intellectual history. Probably a measure of extrinsicality cannot be avoided — but it's important for us to keep seeing it for what it is. Jon Awbrey 17:56, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I have attempted a preliminary split into the three pages:
Please help me sorting these out!!! Criteria I propose are: Pseudoscience must be really disproven or use totally non-scientific methods and standards Protoscience to be reserved for work by trained scientists that is revolutionary or not yet fully recognized/confirmed, but also for historical precursors of modern sciences such as alchemy...recognizing that if these were practiced today they would be pseudosciences. Prescientific systems for all empirical work (including traditional and modern medical and psychiatric therapies) that has no firm scientific standing, basis and/or proof, especially where ongoing studies are taking place to determine the status and efficacy of the field. Question: do such areas as precognition fit this? I have tentatively placed them here, but they almost need their own category.
JA: I moved it to the singular form Prescientific system per local standard usage. Jon Awbrey 14:08, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
This historical material is temporarily removed from article for discussion, as it is incomplete and not fully representative of the most relevant parts of the historical discussion... Kenosis 18:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the reference to Pseudoskepticism as a valid sub-category of Pseudoscience, as described on the Pseudoskepticism page.
Phiwum, at least have the courtesy of providing an explanation for your removal of the statement. -- Iantresman 14:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
As it happens, I think the section on "Classifying pseudoscience" is more accurately to do with "Indentifying pseudoscience" which is not the same thing. It shouldn't be too difficult to find an appropriate place for the sentence on pseudoskepticism. (unsigned by Iantresman)
I think that since an article on pseudoscience considers the scientific method to be so important, that it (a) adds peer-reviewed citations where appropriate (b) applies the "Classifying pseudoscience" identifiers to a real situation, such as the Big Bang theory, in order to demonstrate its veracity. For example
-- Iantresman 17:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Just removed this from Intro because it's a bit too field specific for intro, and applies to fields involving human factors. Placing it here because of its potential value to the article... Kenosis 07:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous editor recently removed this entry from the list of "fields" associated with pseudoscience. I have reverted that removal, since we have a consensus that such edits should be discussed (right?).
Nonetheless, I tentatively agree with the edit. This is a concept or perhaps a claim, but not a field. If the list is a list of fields, what is this doing there? Phiwum 09:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: The term "pseudoscience" is pejorative. Nobody who can read a dictionary definition of "pejorative" and apply it to a case of predication could say otherwise. Could somebody please explain why they have a problem with the simple statement that "pseudoscience" is a pejorative term? Are scientists supposed to be such nice people that they never criticize other people? Or is it some wish to criticize without assuming the responsibilities and the risks of doing so? This is commonly recognized as "Man Behind The Screen" behavior — well, at least it's so recognized when other folks do it. Jon Awbrey 06:20, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: Again, I continue to be flummoxed about this. Is there something pejorative about the term "pejorative-user" (PU)? It does not say "obsessive PU", just "occasional PU", and it imparts no judgment as to the fairness or the frequency of ones PU-hood. Should we not follow Patrick Henry? — "If this be pejorative, make the most of it!" Jon Awbrey 14:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: Yes, that whole bit about "it is pejorative to call somebody a fool and/or a liar, and of course they will protest their innocence, being as they are fools and/or liars" is logically gratuitous. But it's not gratuitous in a practical sense, because there may indeed be people who do not know that the predicate "pseudoscience" is logically equivalent to the predicate "fool and/or liar", so that is why dictionaries include that sort of information when there's a possibility that word users might not know it. Jon Awbrey 15:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: The drawing up of a blacklist, an Index of Proscribed Thoughts, with no supporting arguments attached to each case, is a very non-scientific, non-scholarly procedure, and violates all of the guidelines of truly critical thinking. The hypothesis that anybody who criticizes the dicta of the Grand Inquisitor is automatically the adherent of some proscribed heresy is not exactly unfalsifiable, since people of good sense see the flaw in it right off the bat, but it is the moral equivalent of Infallible Truth in the eyes of the True Believer in (Pseudoscient)ology, not to be confused with the pseudo2science of Pseudo(scientology). Jon Awbrey 13:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Geese, is there no admins watching this? Its taking forever to load the page.
Jon Awbrey, you have made a lot of headers that could have fit in to existing discussions: please stop doing that, its made the page longer than it ought to be. (and prefacing every paragraph with "JA" is not necesssary, thats what signatures are for, and signatures work fine as long as everyone signs, and if someone doesn't just sign anonymous for them to avoid the ambiguity you are apparently trying to superflously avoid.)-- Brentt 17:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: Brentt, try to avoid telling other people what to do, and so will I. Jon Awbrey 10:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: P.S. It just occurred to me that maybe you were unaware of this, but chunking the talk page into many sections and adding only to the relevent one is one of the ways to avoid problems with browser overload, and also to reduce edit conflicts when the talk gets hot and heavy. Also, it's a good idea to add stuff at the bottom of the page rather than stringing stuff on some high branch of some old tree. 11:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
JA: The recommendations about chunking sections and adding at the bottom are things that are suggested in various guidelines and followed more routinely in various parts of WikioPolis, but like most folks you Pseudoscientologists are very selective about which rules you subordinate yourselves to. Jon Awbrey 22:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Discussion through January of 2006 has been moved here: /Archive 2. The previously existing Archive 2 was comparatively brief.... Kenosis 13:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
And discussion through mid-March of 2006 has been moved here: /Archive 3 Hgilbert 05:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
There was no agreement as to whether veteral subluxations should be taken off the list so don't pretend there was in order to make it look like taking it off the list is uncontroversial. (specifically refering to Levine2112's edits). From the POV that the list comes from, it IS in fact a considered a pseudoscience. The POV problem is with where the list is...i.e. the pseudoscience article as opposed to the article about the POV it comes from. Your not helping the effort to adress the POV problems in this article, your just coming at it from a different POV, and I think have hurt the efforts to show the editors that have made this a POV article that it is in fact an innappropriate place for this list. I'm going to get around to getting a third party review of this if I can and when I have time to review that procedure. But the way the adherents to the pseudosciences have been approaching it, by shrilly defending their pet pseudosciences, have hurt the efforts to make this a NPOV article by making this a battleground for opposing viewpoints, instead of a sincere attempt to make the article NPOV. -- Brentt 13:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
We worked through the three categories which have now been made into three articles. Please respect the distinctions made there. In particular:
I have never heard of vertical subluxations before, but the briefest of research confirms that it is not a science or pseudoscience; it is a specialized term. In the words of this article, it is not a body of knowledge, methodology, or practice. I have no idea whether vertical subluxations exist, but the topic is objectively treated in the eponymous article.
As mentioned above, there is serious research being done on homeopathy, and there are major universities and research centers (including the NIH) that continue to treat the subject seriously. The NIH website, for example, says
-- Hgilbert00:36, 25 April 2006
"Just a misalignment ....?" Not quite, by a long shot (111 years of contention and changing definitions within the profession).
There are myriad significant differences between the chiropractic vertebral subluxation (VS) and an orthopedic subluxation. I'll name just a few of them here:
-- Fyslee 07:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I ask for a simple "yes" or a "no" and you give me a dissertation. I appreciate your POV here. Since you are fond of textbooks, here is the textbook definition of VS:
'The vertebral subluxation is the term applied to a vertebra which has lost its normal position and/or motion in relation to neighboring vertebrae. Vertebrae which do not function properly within the spinal framework generate mechanical stress. This accelerates the wear and tear on the surrounding spinal muscles, ligaments, discs, joint and other spinal tissues. Pain, palpatory tenderness, inflammation, decreased spinal mobility, and muscle spasm and hypertonicity will eventually follow.
'Additionally, because of the direct mechanical and physiological relationship between the spinal column and the spinal nerve roots, vertebral subluxations as well as other spinal abnormalities have the potential to impair proper nerve functioning. Once nerve functioning is compromised, communication within the body becomes less effective jeopardizing the overall health and wellness of the individual.
If you agree that a vertebra can become misaligned - which is scientifically proven - then you do believe that vertebral subluxations exist... for they are one in the same. And if you had an auto accident - for argument's sake - and the trauma caused your vertebra to become misaligned, wouldn't you want that to be corrected? Don't you think that the misalignment could be altering your body's normal function? Or do you think the body's overall health and well-being is not impacted in anyway by the alignment bones - particualrly the vertebra which encase your spinal cord? Levine2112 00:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Subluxions aside, what is the opinion on Homeopathy. It's a text book case of pseudoscience. Jefffire 11:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the whole list of pseudosciences is a delicate, perhaps a highly problematic matter. Removing it is one solution. Another would be giving (and requiring) substantial citations that support each of these fields being classified here. A third approach would be our being very careful (but new editors might not be) about what we put here; innocent until proven guilty would be a highly recommended practice...in other words, doubtful but not proved false theories would not be listed. A fourth approach would be to allow anyone to add anything they are quite sure fits the bill...and, I suppose, anyone to take off anything they are quite sure doesn't. I guess that the latter is the current approach. I'm not sure it's working all that well.
My experience suggests that concrete criteria are the best solution, though I could also go with the cited justifications for the classification. I have suggested that any approach about which articles are being written in peer-reviewed journals, which is studied in universities or recognized organizations (such as the NIH), or which in any way is still a topic of discussion and research (as opposed to mere derision) in academic or professional circles, should not be listed here. The jury is still out on many areas(especially health-related, like homeopathy and chiropracty), and this encyclopedia is not the place to make the judgment. Perhaps some of the contributors here could add to the suggested criteria, or modify them, and come up with a reasonable, objective set that we can all apply. Hgilbert 21:35, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
If we keep the list at all, then it should be for fields for which it is difficult or impossible to find citable support. If there is a legitimate mix of opinion out there, the field doesn't belong here. I think that there are some areas that are clear enough to be listed (Wiki policy is also to be bold ... (and be prepared to be corrected, as I am here). I'm worried about the gray areas, though; thus my wish to have objective standards. Hgilbert 05:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
(Deleted subthread upon request of other participant. It can be found here)-- Brentt 22:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I by the Category pseudoscience you mean the Platonic category, that's certainly the case. If you mean the Wikipedia category, well, it's probably been set up by a lot of the same people who made the list in the Pseudoscience article. The question is whether any sort of objective criteria have been applied to either. String theory, for example, has been described as pseudoscience by respected scientists because of its lack of verifiability. Lack of verifiability is normally a clear sign of a pseudoscience. So what are the criteria here? It does seem to come down to a very arbitrary collection based upon the subjective choices: a pseudoscientific list of pseudosciences. 24.190.149.18 01:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that we need to give a fuller and above all a more differentiated picture than a list offers. I have attempted to give a more differentiated stance to three of the subjects; I would hope that the article will eventually have such a description for all the fields on the list. Please feel free to add more evidence on any side; it will need this to achieve a balanced picture. I hope that everyone will agree that more information can only be better under the circumstances. Please do not add rank and unsubstantiated opinions to the page, however (and let me know if I have unwittingly done so!) Hgilbert 03:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Wait a minute! If I read you right, you are saying that this article should only include one point of view because 'it is about the scientific POV'. There is no justification for excluding other points of view in Wikipedia. The list in its current form does so. The fact that major universities (Exeter in England, Bern in Switzerland, Bridgeport in the USA) teach homeopathy, that in France:
and that in all countries I know of (including the USA), homeopathic physicians are allowed to practice medicine is completely ignored; Either we include multiple POVs on the page itself or I'd like to take this into arbitration. The page as it stands is contrary to Wikipedia policy. Hgilbert 00:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
It is about pseudoscience. There are many points of view about what should be included in pseudoscience. If you want to write an article about a POV, do so. This one is article Pseudoscience. Hgilbert 00:35, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
For me, at least, there is a distinction between moon as green cheese, articles about which do not appear in any scientific journal (pro or con) and courses about which do not exist in physics departments of any universities, and homeopathy, articles about which do appear in all medical journals (indicating that it is a topic of scientific discourse even if the evidence is uncertain or weak (as it is for string theory, ladies and gentlemen), and which is taught at eight French medical schools (most of them in France, I believe) as well as at least the Creighton University School of Medicine (based on a quick web search; there may be other schools) in the US of A. Homeopathic medicines and treatment are covered by essentially all insurers in Germany. The list goes on...it is treated as a serious contender, though an unproved area, rather than a goofball subject, by many, many respectable agencies. (If you don't consider insurance companies respectable, ignore the last mention.) Do you fathom this distinction?
Rereading this section, however, I see that there are serious concerns by many users about the list itself. In view of this, the suggestion to move it to a separate page on scientific skepticism seems to me an excellent one. Hgilbert 02:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
If you consider the idea that there are 6-7 effectively invisible extra dimensions to space a plausible mechanism ;) But I agree with you, taking the wider view, the whole list is beginning to seem severely misplaced and problematic. Hgilbert 03:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
If Hgilbert will do his research better, he'll see that Creighton's coverage of homeopathy is very critical. -- Fyslee 04:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is cybernetics on the list of pseudosciences?
When I first saw this added my first reaction was what the...!? thats ridiculous!. But then I thought about the title of this list being "fields associated with pseudo-science" and then thought, well strictly speaking, string theory, while most emphatically not a pseudo-science, is often associated with pseudo-science. Not with the auspices of actual string theorists of course, but by New Agers who read a popularization of it and think that their misunderstanding of it reinforces their views (they do it with QM and relativity of course too). But of course, despite the title, I don't think thats what the list is supposed to be about. The term associated probably shouldn't be in there. It does nothing to mitigate the POV of the list (and I do think the list is from a particular POV as I've said before.) But if the list is going to be up, there is no sense of saying "associated with". Maybe "alleged to be", if you want to keep of the facade that the list isn't POV. -- Brentt 20:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
This is unrelated to the POV issue. But I changed the name of the list to Fields alleged to be pseudoscientific and phenomena associated with pseudoscientific methods of study. The main change being so things like UFO's,Telekenisis, and Perpetual motion can be included without any awkward qualifiers, since they are obviously of interest but aren't pseudosciences per se. I thought it would be a uncontroversial change. Hope I'm right? -- Brentt 20:50, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's see: who is in favor of stripping off the list to another, possibly more appropriate page? Hgilbert 00:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Fyslee, it appears that you are the only one who really supports this list being on this page. Can you accept our moving it to the skepticism article graciously? Hgilbert 02:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Sure. No point in being the only skeptic who supports providing examples. I expect the next step will be to redefine pseudoscience? --
Fyslee 05:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your gracious skepticism. By the way, I think the definition of pseudoscience is rather good at this point; we've all contributed to this effectively :) Hgilbert 06:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Keep the list here. How can you have an article on Pseudoscience without providing the reader with an idea of which subjects are consensually considered to be Pseudoscience . Lumos3 06:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Bad idea moving it. Keep. Jefffire 11:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
We have seen that there is a lack on concensus on some items, and a feeling amongst several editors here that the list is inherently POV-biased. I happen to believe it would be possible to have a list that included items for which there is essentially universal concensus, and then more differentiated presentations of mixed situations (like homeopathy, for which respected medical journals publish studies, and about which respected medical schools - such as most of those in France - offer courses of study and professional certification). This approach didn't work. There is an existing list of alternative, disputed and speculative theories. Since the people at the scientific skepticism site don't want the list here, perhaps a link to the existing list is best.
In any case, we had reached a concensus on this talk page...please find a new concensus before moving it back. Hgilbert 11:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Keep it here. I just reverted the deletion. The current discussion (this thread) is less than two days old and I see no consensus. Vsmith 11:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm in favor of kepping the list here. Why not have some examples of the topic of the article? If you want to include some improper uses of the word,those can be included if they are labeled. Bubba73 (talk), 23:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, good point, Levine; are we prepared to let anybody add any items that have been criticized by somebody for being a pseudoscience to this list? What are the objective criteria? Hgilbert 01:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I Don't think that characterology is notable enough to warrent inclusion in the list. Jefffire 13:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to nominate Anthroposophy for inclusion in the list on this page. It was called spiritual science by its founder Rudolf Steiner and continues to claim this description today but follows none of the methods used by science. Particulalry it violates reproducibility since all its observations are subjective. I do not say it is without value merely that it is not a science yet masquerades as one. Lumos3 12:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
It follows many of the methods used by science, and its natural-scientific observations are objective and phenomenological. For example, anthroposophical medicine has produced remedies based on mistletoe extracts that have been shown to be effective in combating tumors; there are numerous peer-reviewed studies of this, as I have shown elsewhere:
There are various anthroposophical discoveries, such as Flow forms that create rhythmic motion through purely (passive) geometric forms, Oloids that are unusually efficient mixers, etc. that are reproducible and have been reproduced by numerous researchers. The list goes on and on.
Anthroposophical spiritual research is not able to be validated directly, of course, but results such as the above are, and have been. As long as these ultimate results are reproducible and shown to be valid, it must be regarded as in some sense scientific. Hgilbert 02:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
A curious response to the above citations, which include summaries like:
in a research report by the Stadtische Kliniken, Department of Neurosurgery, Koln, Germany and published in The International Journal of Cancer Research and Treatment. Hgilbert 00:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
There is as much dispute about the neutrality of the points of view represented in this article as anywhere I've seen in Wikipedia. A NPOV label is simply descriptive of the current controversy. Hgilbert 23:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The NPOV label addresses the question about whether such a list can be made without differentiated discussion about each item; by default, it asserts a single point of view about each of the items under discussion. As long as a list that excludes such differentiated discussion - and when the latter has been added, it has been removed - remains in the current form, there is a clear violation of the NPOV policy.
In addition, the NPOV label simply says that the material is disputed; this talk page is evidence of this. Hgilbert 11:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it may be time to get rid of this list. What are the editors here, judge jury and executioner?? And to then hide behind statements like "fields often called pseudoscience, or "often accused of being pesudoscience" ?? With the presentation of this list, a reasonable article unfortunately turns into a self-appointed consumer protection service that operates without any serious empirical methods in and of itself! Now, you tell me, what class of enterprise does that remind you of? Personally, it reminds me of ... pseudoscience . ... Kenosis 11:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
What does that statement intend to mean? "what science has to say...". Scientific organizations do not, as a general rule, take official positions on what is "pseudoscience" and what is not... Kenosis 12:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this assessment. Perhaps the list could be saved by introducing it as follows:
Otherwise I agree that it clearly violates the NPOV policy.
Hgilbert 10:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps that last comment illustrates the challenges here. Some people are convinced that there is a single 'scientific' POV. That is a view most commonly associated with popularizations of science, not with serious scientists, however.
It seems to me that the criticisms of homeopathy as a pseudoscience are largely based on its theory being implausible, or on the weakly or unverified efficacy - in other words, that it is 'incorrect'- and not, for example, upon any of the many justifications for a field being termed pseudoscience listed in this article. This is exactly why some of us are arguing that it does not belong in this list; it is as scientific in its approach as traditional medicine (under any treatment regime, some get better, some don't; there are conventional medicines that turn out to be ineffective or even dangerous); the real question is whether it works or not. As in the case of supersymmetry, or string theory, a novel theory with no evidence to back it up is simply tested and either confirmed or rejected when sufficient evidence is there, but not attacked as being pseudoscientific so long as evidence is sought and respected. The relatively frequent presence of homeopathic studies in respected medical and scientific journals shows that the latter is the case.
If the standards of the article were followed more carefully in the list, we'd have less of an issue here. Hgilbert 00:17, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
What homeopathic studies have been found fraudulent? I think you are misunderstanding the meta-analysis, which showed that the efficacy demonstrated by certain studies - many were excluded for methodological reasons - was within the range also shown by administration of placebos. The meta-analysis is itself contested, but in any case there was no mention of fraud. Hgilbert 17:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Rational include:
Hgilbert 01:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the suggestion to move that article here, as per the discussion on the relevant discussion page, that article does not belong here but represents another stage in the scientific process. It is sourced, the concept exists and is separate from "pseudoscience". Why confuse the two??? Haiduc 11:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Unless you're an unreconstructed postmodernist with a bad education, arguing in the 21 century that science is inherently POV leaves you floundering with Locke and Berkerley, who, with Johnson I refute thus: blathering armchair pontificators. This is a short way of saying the list is not POV, it is defined by mainstream science like it or not. The article shouldn't be merged. I support Jefffire. Mccready 13:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
And yes, there are strong contrary POVs within the medical community of other countries, for example, about homeopathy, which is taught in mainstream medical schools in India, France and Switzerland (U of Bern). There is a strong temptation for US citizens to assume that the US sets the standard for the world and to ignore other cultures. (NPOV = MPOV = USPOV) Hgilbert 08:42, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
We get the same in here Hong Kong. The traditional medicine people don't try to get a science certificate though. But the alternative doctors in the west are always doing the crossing the line. They pretend all the time to be clinical and proved by science and it is wrong. Hylas Chung 08:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Not sure if its a good idea to list it here, but it seems relavant to current discussions so here goes. -- Salix alba ( talk) 22:24, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes thank you I had a talk on the discussion. Thanks Hylas Chung 08:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
[Note: this post copied from my User page ]
Are we supposed to take this seriously as a source:--> http://archivefreedom.org/
Claims there is some kind of " blacklist" in physics preventing certain physicists from publishing work. This clearly shows a grave misunderstanding of the scientific method. Anyone is free to publish -- as long as it is science. Overturning a paradigm will earn you fame, and if true, a theory will stand up to critical peer review.
All the website shows is that certain pseudoscientists have a bizarre conspiracy theory of science, and instead of doing science, pseudoscientists scream like children about how they are being "censored"? — Dunc| ☺ 19:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we may wish to have an article on mainstream science. This would serve as a good counterbalance and would be an excellent reference for articles that straddle the boundary between innovation and quackery (certain ecology ideas and psychoanalysis proposals come to mind). Any thoughts on this? -- ScienceApologist 17:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Per the suggestion of others, I've redacted irrelevant comments to their own section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ScienceApologist ( talk • contribs) .
Who judges who is on the "inside", or what is considered "consensus"? According to the literature, a consensus of papers still considers comets to be dirty snowballs, and " 2003 UB313" has less papers about it that Halton Arp has published on intrinsic redshift -- Iantresman 19:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
User:Kenosis, why do you want to remove pseudoarchealogy from the list? Can you explain your reasoning? When I compiled some watchlists dealing with pseudoscience, I had a large number which I thought of as pseudoarchaeology. --- CH 06:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi Hillman and Arthur. I'm not wedded to that decision to remove. But my objective is twofold:
But like I said, I'm not wedded to the edit, and found Arthur Rubin's choice to put it in "see also" to be a reasonable decision in this case... Kenosis 14:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)