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Recently Canada designated the Proud Boys as a terrorist organization. The article currently states this fact in the info box. Should this information be included in the info box? Is it due?
Thanks Bacon drum 20:53, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
We should never accept a government designation of a group as authoritative. In addition to their lack of accuracy, governments frequently add and delete groups for political reasons. U.S. backed insurgents are called freedom-fighters, otherwise they are terrorists.
I wouldn't call the Proud Boys white supremacist on the basis of a letter by Canadian civil rights activists, per "Context matter." I would look for a source that specifically addresses the issue of whether they are a white supremacist group. A geology textbook for example might mention in passing biographical detail about Rick Perry, the former governor of Texas. But that wouldn't be my go to source if I was editing his article. Presumably they got their information from somewhere else. Since it's not particularly significant to the writers what he majored in at college, their statement would be less reliable that a biography written about him.
17:31, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
intelligence organizations are unreliable- this entire line of argumentation is absurd, as though "terrorist organization" has an objective, concrete definition that can be neatly applied in every case, completely outside the national agencies which make the designations. The question isn't whether the Proud Boys are objectively (?) a terrorist organization, but whether a country has designated them as such. In this case, they have. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Overarching note here: the people who want to label the Proud Boys with the contentious label of white nationalist have only cited Canadian sources, and two articles (from NPR and NBC) that say the Proud Boys are white nationalist in passing without any evidence cited in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.144.101 ( talk • contribs)
There are three sources used to justify the label, and only one of the three actually claim that the proud boys are a white nationalist organisation.
In its designation, the Canadian government said members of the Proud Boys “espouse misogynistic, Islamophobic, anti-Semitic, anti-immigrant, and/or white supremacist ideologies and associate with white supremacist groups.”The New York Times doesn't describe them as a white supremacist organisation, it's just quoting what the Canadian government said. They instead chose to describe them as the
"Proud Boys, a far-right, all-male organization".
Proud Boys, the far-right extremist group, and then goes onto say that they are
a key player in the U.S. white supremacist movement. This is describing in vague terms their broader relation to "the white supremacist movement", it is again not describing the Proud Boys as a white nationalist organisation, and is clear in their designation of them as a "far-right extremist group".
"The Proud Boys is a white nationalist organization with multiple U.S. chapters."
I don't think a single line in an NPR piece is enough to justify the label. Reliable sources discuss the Proud Boys a lot, and all (bar that one sentence in NPR) seem to only go as far as to describe them as something like "far-right extremists" or "neo-fascists" at the most. Wikipedia should describe the Proud Boys as reliable sources do and not create our own spin. Volteer1 ( talk) 15:53, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
"the Proud Boys, who some of the US agencies label as “white supremacists” and “extremists”, and others as a “gang”". That seems worth mentioning and shouldn't just be "disregarded", but is not something that supports flatly stating in the opening sentence that it is true of them if reliable sources don't claim it to be so. Volteer1 ( talk)
Comment - A number of organisations monitoring them have noted the connection:
Again, this was a very quick look, I'm not convinced that it's an unverifiable claim, it's verifiable...also, NPR is a reliable source. I see no reason to remove on verifiability grounds - numerous reliable sources describe them as such. Their leader being Afro Cuban is irrelevant, people do all kinds of crazy stupid shit all then time, who knows why they do it. Bacon drum 05:16, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
The FBI has described the Proud Boys as an “extremist group with ties to white nationalism”in the body of the article, which is again the same as the previous two you mentioned. To sum up, we now have two sources for the label:
Far right for sure but I don't think white nationalists are a proper description. Where in any of their official literature is there word one about white nationalism?
Im not a Proud Boy myself but lean conservative and I've met many Proud Boys that aren't white.
Can't help but feel there is some serious spin goin on here. Iscream22 ( talk) 18:23, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
"A statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view. Otherwise, individual opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources." Even the left wing SLPC would be scared to call them white nationalists. They would be sued. Whoever is enjoying this power trip controlling this article, hang it up and remove the contentious label immediately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.144.101 ( talk) 23:05, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Also no conservative sources are cited which would balance the article. You would find that the term white nationalist is only used by left-wing sources. /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Conservatism/References — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.144.101 ( talk) 23:06, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Also no conservative sources are cited which would balance the article.
Also no conservative sources are cited which would balance the articleThat is not true. We cite The Wall Street Journal for example, which our own article says has a "conservative political editorial line", the Toronto Sun "a conservative broadsheet", the National Post "has retained a conservative editorial stance", the Chicago Tribune "typically conservative" and the National Review a "conservative editorial magazine". Vexations ( talk) 14:07, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
Is the claim labeling the Proud Boys "White nationalist" verifiable and due?
Thanks Bacon drum 21:16, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
NoPer Fizzbuzz306 et al. We need to redirect the gap between associated with and actually. Springee ( talk) 23:00, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
Just noting for talk page watchers that this is now at AN: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Closure review request for Proud Boys RfC. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:09, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
The context of this post is that I've just closed the long RfC above.
Taking off my closer hat, and speaking as an uninvolved non-American who has read the above discussion and the whole article carefully from top to bottom, I would encourage the community to consider whether it really is absolutely necessary to use all five-or-so labels for the Proud Boys that we currently employ in sentence one. Where we can truthfully say that an organization is neo-fascist, it does seem tautological to call it white nationalist and far right as well. Equally, where we can truthfully say that it's white nationalist, it seems rather redundant to call it far right and neo-fascist. I do feel that the current first sentence whiffs more of a thesaurus than an encyclopaedia.— S Marshall T/ C 16:24, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
Since the RFC has been closed as no consensus, here is a proposal. There are multiple RS that describe the PB as white nationalist, but the highest quality RS do not make the association routinely, rather making claims of association and ties of the PB with white nationalism and white supremacism (e.g. the SPLC). So:
Proposal - The Proud Boys is a far-right, neo-fascist and exclusively male organization that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States and Canada. The group also has been associated with and members routinely maintain ties to white nationalist and white supremacist extremists.
Things to discuss:
The PB have been associated with white nationalismor less indirect
Members of the PB have ties to white nationalism
Mvbaron ( talk) 08:27, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
Keep in mind that the FBI's opinion on the matter is already expressed lower in the article, here and here.
I think a condensed source-stack in the lead (similar to what we have already for other descriptors) is appropriate with something along the lines of what you posted, and perhaps incorporating in some way the sources which were more happy to LABEL the PB — seems a poor omission to discard them entirely. Characterizing the Proud Boys in general as having this association is probably warranted. I think sources reflect that, along with their general history (e.g. the origin at Taki's Magazine) -- Chillabit ( talk) 11:00, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
I think the RFC above shows that there is no consensus to LABEL the PB as white nationalist, so we can't do that - with or without stacked sources.Huh? If there was consensus not to label the PB as white nationalist, this would be true, but there was no consensus. GorillaWarfare (talk) 14:14, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
The group also has been associated with, and members routinely maintain ties to, white nationalist and white supremacist extremists.. GorillaWarfare (talk) 14:22, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
The RfC did not say there is no consensus for the label, it found there was no consensus to change it.Not sure if you're following the AN discussion, but there is ongoing discussion there about this particular part of the close. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:24, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
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whoever made this did not actaully do any research and 2/3 of the references are incorrect, Arkadisevyan ( talk) 23:59, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
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Add homophobia 198.255.141.110 ( talk) 03:53, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
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The Proud Boys are not what Wikipedia says they are. Someone is trying to label a bunch of GOOD MEN as a bunch of terrorists. Absolutely pathetic. All the Proud Boys are, are a group of patriotic men, who are PROUD of their country. They are PROUD to be men. And they are PROUD to defend their country against terrorists. Basket-Head ( talk) 17:32, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
"The surprising answer to this question is that the Proud Boys enjoy significant support from a slice of the Chinese American community and the broader Chinese diaspora."
Their gifts made up more than 80% of the $106,107 raised for medical costs for members of the Proud Boys who were stabbed during violent clashes in Washington in mid-December.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/05/04/proud-boys-chinese-americans-community-support-donations/7343111002/ TuffStuffMcG ( talk) 10:05, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Newslinger, Emir of Wikipedia, and Volteer1: Proposing to bump the talk page archiving to something like 90 days. Newslinger, can you explain your concerns with slowing down the archiving of this talk page? I see you and Emir have each undone changes to slow the archive speed ( Newslinger undid Emir's, Emir undid Volteer's, though Emir's appears to have just been based on Newslinger's). There was a period where this talk page was so active that 14-day archiving made sense, but bumping it to 90 days would seem to make sense now. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:54, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
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Extreme right (conservative) & Fascists are polar opposites, as Fascism is a form of socialism. Please correct the opening description. 64.19.79.34 ( talk) 01:37, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
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Needs a proper citation for declaring the group a terrorist organization. The link is to a New York Times article declaring them as such an organization. The group hasn't been formally declared a terrorist organization by law enforcement. Skeszler92 ( talk) 18:15, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
Also states the group has "folded" while saying it's status is "active". This is clearly a contradiction. Skeszler92 ( talk) 18:22, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
👍🏻 Skeszler92 ( talk) 20:30, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
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Add Category:2021 disestablishments in Canada since the organization is dissolved in Canada. 2603:6010:D307:98CA:65F1:5975:317C:B2BF ( talk) 01:59, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The description of this organization starts with "The Proud Boys is a far-right, neo-fascist, and exclusively male organization that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States.[1]" which impugns this group of people from the very beginning. There is no evidence of any kind that support the claim that they are fascist in any form or manner. As fascism is actually a political ideology based upon the idea of an authoritarian form of government, which this group has never professed to support.
Furthermore, as this article progresses, it continues to make outlandish claims that are not supported by any facts, just opinions, of well documented biased editors and opinion pundits in the news media.
My suggestion for this article is that it be completely wiped and the article re-written from scratch by independent, fact-based content so that people who may not know who or what a proud boy is can make up their own minds instead of being hammered with an obviously negative OPINION of who or what they are without any factual or formal basis for such opinion.
This would be no different than a conservative writing an extremely negative wikipedia article about Antifa in the same fashion. It's unacceptable.
73.53.59.159 ( talk) 01:01, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
They joined the Wisconsin Proud Boys looking for brotherhood. They found racism, bullying and antisemitism. Acroterion (talk) 00:33, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
I came across this article from USAToday that talks about how the Proud Boys enjoy strong support from the Chinese-American community and saw a wave of donations starting in December. Might be worthwhile to include some information about the racial demographics of Proud Boys membership and supporters, given that they're widely viewed as a white nationalist/white supremacist organization. Some media outlets have also accused the Proud Boys of using minorities (including Tarrio) as cover to hide its alleged bigotry [17], though I don't pay enough attention to these people to make a judgment either way. Incerto501 ( talk) 15:56, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
[18] and [19]. Of course we'd want more and better sources. We can't use Kos and there's no consensus on Vice. Doug Weller talk 14:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Yesterdays clashes with far left "anti fascist" terrorists in Portland should be included in the article as they were notable and well publicized, and at least two Proud Boys were involved as organizers in the event who later participated in the violence. History Man1812 ( talk) 13:13, 23 August 2021 (UTC)History_Man1812
It appears very redundant because both ideologies are very similar. Additionally, I did not want to get into an edit-war with the other contributors, so I would ask that here to better know. MarioSuperstar77 ( talk) 17:10, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
TuffStuffMcG ( talk) 16:21, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Anon the group its self condemns Fascism, it does not feel right putting neo fascists there — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.224.56.242 ( talk) 14:51, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
They are an overtly anti fascist group which can be verified by their charter and multiple other sources. Much of this entry is verifiably false the fact that many of its "sources" are opinion pieces by far left activist groups is enough to make one lose faith in the collective integrity of Wikipedia altogether. Savatage2k ( talk) 10:27, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The recommendation for a rewriting of the introduction was addressed briefly above, I don't see this exact question addressed: Why are the Proud Boys considered a "fascist" organization.
The response to one objection to its use above, from "Jorm", proves its own point by using words that have no meaning, and uses them to ostensibly respond to the request.
I can see why that request had problems since it does not provide for the possibility of a right-wing socialism. The political term "fascism" usually denotes a political movement or organization of some kind to the right, even though it has socialist elements. This seems obvious since Nazis are usually considered fascists and the name itself includes the word: National Socialism. The Proud Boys don't seem to advocate any socialist positions, in fact quite the opposite. That they should be classified to the right seems hard to dispute, but the description of the group as "fascist" is very questionable. It is so for at least one reason: The term "fascism" has proved very difficult to define with any specificity despite nearly 100 years of trying, since Mussolini established his first " Fasci Italiani di Combattimento" around this time a century ago.
This topic shows how the traditional right/left spectrum has been breaking down for well over a century, with some graphs showing the extremes of both left and right meeting to form "totalitarian" systems of government. This is not the place for an extended political discussion, but it think Wikipedia has a large systemic problem when it comes to treatment of groups that are identified on the right, from the mildly conservative all the way to the extreme right. They fall into the trap of the progressive/left of using the most extreme adjectives to characterize certain groups, with the clear purpose of pushing them into the the extremist category. The "they" here are the uber-editors and those making the decisions at the Wiki administrator level. I tend to the think calling the Proud Boys "fascist" is more pejorative than explanatory. It is another example of the broad breakdown of the term, a process described by Orwell in 1944. He said that the word has ceased to mean much other than "something not desirable". (See "What is Fascism?", George Orwell; https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/39403-the-word-fascism-has-now-no-meaning-except-in-so)
I would be happy to attempt a discussion of whether the Proud Boys qualify as fascist from what I know on the subject, but something tells me it would be instantly reverted were I to try. So, I leave it as a topic worth discussing since it seems any group deserves to be accurately characterized and not have adjectives repeated from sources once deemed reputable that have degraded in quality. Sych (talk) 11:04, 8 July 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sychonic ( talk • contribs)
This is not the place for an extended political discussionYes. soibangla ( talk) 15:29, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
The Proud Boys are an avowed anti-fascist group which is verifiable through their charter. Saying that there are "reliable sources" that say otherwise only makes those sources verifiable unreliable. Furthermore, they are an all inclusive group which is expressly stated at many points in their application process where they expressly warn against "hate" or racism in any way. Much of this article cites far left sources including the Anti Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center which are widely known for their efforts to smear and misinform Savatage2k ( talk) 10:34, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
I'm gonna agree with this one. The neofascism article itself links to the fact that fascist is often used as an insult against political groups.
Fascism, while developing from socialism, and having socialistic (more accurately, corporatist) elements, is primarily ultranationalist and anti communist, and thus belongs on the far right. However, not all far right ideologies are fascist. Theocracies, absolute monarchies, etc.
While the Proud Boys qualify for some aspects of fascism (ultranationalist, populist, nativist, etc.) I haven't seen much evidence of them supporting opposition to democracy as a government form, or a corporatist economic structure (a tripartite system with government, business, and unions making decisions together). Owlblocks ( talk) 08:34, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
I might suggest a couple of tweaks to the lead. The fist one is the redundant back-to-back repetition of "multiple racist events". And the second tweak is to fit MOS a bit better:
According to The Daily Beast, though the group officially rejects white supremacy, "members have nonetheless appeared at multiple racist events". Members have also engaged in
multiple racist events andevents centered around fascist, anti-left, and anti-socialist violence; and events centered around ...The Proud Boys glorifies violenceThe group is frequently accused of glorifying violence,
Pyrrho the Skeptic ( talk) 17:54, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Though the group officially rejects white supremacy, members have participated in many racist events and events centered around fascist, anti-left, and anti-socialist violence.
See [21]. Doug Weller talk 11:54, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
complaining, not an actual request
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Proud boys in not far right or extremists. They are traditional and patriotic. 2001:569:5109:8000:4058:4842:3F02:5245 ( talk) 19:31, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
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There are only four sources cited for labelling the Proud Boys network as neo-fascist, two of which actually do not use the word neo-fascist but protofascist and cryptofascist. Out of the two remaining sources, one is an editorial piece by Peter McLaren, who is not a political scientist, and is not in the least trying to be neutral (boasting about punching a life-size picture of Donald Trump). I do not think that article qualifies as a neutral source. The only remaining source, the New York Times, does call the group neo-fascist, but does not explain why, and which definition of neo-fascism they used.
I think this article's neutrality would be greatly helped if more sources were added justifying the neo-fascist label, and if those sources also clarified why the group meets a specific definition of neo-fascism. As an example, I would look at the wikipedia page on the Rise Above Movement, where the labels used to describe the group are much more well-defined in the sources referred to. The ADL and the SPLC are generally good sources for these kinds of subjects.
-- 82.169.68.56 ( talk) 16:33, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
Given that Proud Boys attempted an insurrection, is it a proscribed organisation? If not, why not? Other organisations which wish to overturn the democratic basis of government are disallowed from their members joining public/civil service/government organisations. What efforts have been made to stop Proud Boys from infiltrating government agencies? 2.28.151.187 ( talk) 16:09, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
I ask because they've been removed from List of neo-Nazi organizations by User:Sjö as unsourced in the article. They are in the Neo-Nazism template but in List of neo-fascist groups. And is it realistic now to distinguish? My experience is that these terms are used interchangeably. Doug Weller talk 17:28, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
[25] "Proud Boys Regroup, Focusing on School Boards and Town Councils The far-right nationalist group has become increasingly active at school board meetings and town council gatherings across the country." If you can't read it and want to see a copy, email me. Doug Weller talk 11:58, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
this isn’t anything productive, just NOTFORUM complaining
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Tge Proud Boys are not racist or fascist. This is a totally false label put on them by the left. Their leader is a person of color. Their crime is being the enemy of ANTIFA. Which is a communist anti capitalist organization. 75.115.34.92 ( talk) 01:28, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
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If you want to communicate who this organization is perhaps you should not focus on the personal life of its high profile members and focus on their beliefs. It reads as a personal smear, not an explanation of who these people are. All you have done here is give credit to their claim that they are unfairly represented in the media. The truth is the truth and attempting to colour the truth with irrelevant factoids only works to cloud the truth. This is supposed to be a place where we share the truth, free of spin. 2607:FEA8:545F:87B0:1C5:E97:7CF2:C148 ( talk) 16:28, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
This has video of a Proud Boys leader brutally attacking an innocent black woman and yelling racial slurs at her. Since he's a leader of the Proud Boys, I think this info could be especially useful in the article:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/andrew-walls-proud-boys-assault-video_n_621c87a3e4b0afc668c2eda2
Mulva? Gipple? Dolores! ( talk) 16:40, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
--- Another Believer ( Talk) 22:44, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
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Change the first sentence ending...FROM "American Organization" TO an "Anti-American Organization" 2600:387:C:6F12:0:0:0:9 ( talk) 19:04, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
What about the proud boys actually is fascist, not the fake definition but the actual real fact definition of fascism, I see no fascist idea's (nationalism is not fascism) and clearly 0 "white supremercy", Miriam Webster defines fascism as such, "often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition", proud boys stand for decentralization (states retaining independent rights and privileges over the central us government) and the continuing of the current American political system (elected officials otherwise known as democracy), what you describe with the "fascist" label is what Antifa stand for but you haven't labeled Antifa as "neo-fascist", when did Wikipedia(an information platform) become so politically charged. 101.100.148.250 ( talk) 02:57, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
The redirect POYB is referring to something added to the infobox in this edit citing the ADL. I have confirmed that to the ADL as claimed, but almost nowhere else reliable (if the ADL can be considered reliable on this topic, I don't know as I don't edit this topic) backs the claim up. Is this a true alias of the Proud Boys? Sennecaster ( Chat) 00:38, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
It is not on the ideology page Option 1 have neo fascism in both Option 2 have cryptofascism in both 176.72.43.90 ( talk) 11:05, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
New information about the role of the Proud Boys came out after the start of the January 6th Hearings on June 9th, 2022:
Taken together the new information shows:
Key Citations
If you have not watched the New York Times investigative video in the first article, I strongly recommend it. I have put much of these new findings together. There are multiple references to the NYT video, each providing different times in the video for the events or text cited, but the difference in times does not seem to show up unless you try to go to the YouTube video of the NYT investigative report.
Veritas Aeterna ( talk) 00:46, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
The lead refers to Enrique Tarrio both as "chairman" and as "former chairman". The latter is cited from this press release about his indictment. A lot of news articles also refer to him as the former chairman, but I can't find anything about a change of leadership or a new leader. Perhaps the group is considered to no longer have a recognized chairman due to the statement from the Alabama, Indiana and Oklahoma chapters (quoted in the article) that they don't recognize his authority. Someone with more insight into these issues should resolve this inconsistency; in case he is no longer considered chairman, the article on Enrique Tarrio himself would also need to be updated. Joriki ( talk) 07:52, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
It's here. [26] Doug Weller talk 14:28, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
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The opening sentence should be changed to this:
"The Proud Boys is an American far-right, neo-fascist, white nationalist, street gang that is exclusively a male organization that engages in a range of street-level violence and promotes and participates in political violence in the United States.[1][7][8]
additional cites:
The second sentence should be changed to this:
"Despite the Proud Boys penchant for violence and street gang characteristics[Campbell, 2022; Reid & Valasik, 2020] the group is designated as a terrorist group in Canada[9][10] and New Zealand,[6] in the United States the group is regularly Mavalasik ( talk) 18:18, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
The Proud Boys is an American far-right, neo-fascist, white nationalist, and exclusively male organization that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States. Among various definitions, it has been called a street gang and was designated as a terrorist group in Canada and New Zealand. The Proud Boys are known for their opposition to left-wing and progressive groups and their support for former U.S. President Donald Trump.Pyrrho the Skipper ( talk) 23:19, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
Partly done: Added the gist of it, with edits based on discussion. Pyrrho the Skipper ( talk) 23:16, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Is there a reason that you did not include the other cite by Reid & Valasik, which is actual academic research vs. Campbell’s journalist piece? They are the only two substantive pieces that are sea with this issue, and Reid & Valasik came out first. Can you have both listed? Mavalasik ( talk) 23:57, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
The Politico link that you included with the Campbell cite, is just referencing his book. It is not an independent supporting cite, like Reid & Valasik would be. Mavalasik ( talk) 20:59, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
In the second paragraph of the History and Organization section there needs to be more discussion about Proud Boys being a street gang first and foremost. The material I am suggesting can be added at the beginning of the second paragraph. From Proud Boys inception McInnes has publicly labeled the group as being a gang (Rogan 2017). Self-nomination is consistently shown as being one of the most robust predictors of gang involvement (Esbensen et al., 2001). Despite there being no universal academic or legal definition of street gang, Proud Boys clearly meet the Eurogang definition, which has a strong consensus among gang scholars, “any durable, street-oriented youth group whose involvement in illegal activity is part of their group identity” (Decker, Pyrooz, & Densley, 2022). Proud Boys actively appeal to marginalized men, who yearn for a nostalgic past of hegemonic masculinity where the bestowed privilege of being male were not questioned, sharing a collective identity (DeCook, 2018; Reid & Valasik, 2020). That identity is a hipster persona that deploys humor and irony to facilitate far-right arguments attacking the political, social, and cultural status quo, opposing feminism, immigration, political correctness, and establishment politics (DeCook, 2018). Proud Boys routine behaviors and characteristics are also analogous with street gangs, primarily hanging out together, drinking beer, and participating in a variety of criminal acts, primarily violence ([10]; Reid & Valasik, 2020; Rogan 2017). Additionally, Proud Boys adopted a specific set of colors, yellow and black, along with a mascot, a cockerel, frequently worn on Fred Perry polo shirts in public as a uniform to clearly display group affiliation [274][275][276]. Proud Boys also use violent initiation ceremonies to “jump in” new members, along with a variety of other identifiers, such as getting a Proud Boy tattoo, that further indicate group loyalty and reinforce collective identity [10].
Cites:
Rogan, J. (2017). Joe Rogan Experience #920—Gavin McInnes [Video]. https://www.bitchute.com/video/lrRL5PzeOxu6/
Esbensen, F.-A., Winfree, L. T., He, N., & Taylor, T. J. (2001). Youth gangs and definitional issues: When is a gang a gang, and why does it matter? Crime & Delinquency, 47(1), 105-130.
Decker, S. H., Pyrooz, D.C., & Densley, J. A. (2022) On Gangs. Temple University Press.
DeCook, J. R. (2018). Memes and symbolic violence: #Proudboys and the use of memes for propaganda and the construction of collective identity. Learning, Media and Technology, 43(4), 485-504.
Reid, S. E., & Valasik, M. (2020). Alt-right gangs: A hazy shade of white. University of California Press. ISBN 9780520300453
I will note that I am a tenured professor of criminology and criminal justice, an expert in street gangs, and one of the few academics that are treating Proud Boys with the concern that they warrant. I am citing my own work, along with Andy Campbell's brand-new book, because they are the most appropriate pieces of research that clearly articulate the rational for why Proud Boys are a street gang. Mavalasik ( talk) 14:16, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
McInnes has publicly labeled the group as a gang, and criminologists have pointed to the Proud Boys initiation ceremonies, involvement in criminal and violent behavior, identifying apparel and tattoos, and other characteristics as consistent with street gangs.[1][2][3]
Regarding recent categorization discussion, the article already exists in Category:Fascism in the United States and Category:Proud Boys, both of which are diffusing subcategories in the Category:Far-right politics in the United States tree. Please refer to WP:CATSPECIFIC. ButlerBlog ( talk) 18:21, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
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requesting more substantive changes, if they are justified with reference to reliable sources, and not the subject of ongoing discussion Coomer 3 ( talk) 14:47, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
What kind of grammar fuckery is this?
"It" is an organization. It, it, it.
That edit was made by User:Recobben. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 05:02, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
This is the type of situation where we should be consistent and remove all ambiguity. We can do that by always referring to the people as "members" and their organization as some synonym of "organization." --
Valjean (
talk) (
PING me) 18:11, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Antifa (/ænˈtiːfə, ˈænti(ˌ)fə/) is a left-wing anti-fascist and anti-racist political movement in the United States. It consists of a highly decentralized array of autonomous groups that use both nonviolent direct action and violence to achieve their aims.[1][2][3] Most antifa political activism is nonviolent, involving poster and flyer campaigns, mutual aid, speeches, protest marches, and community organizing.
The Proud Boys is an American far-right, neo-fascist, and exclusively male organization that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States.[1][11][12] It has been called a street gang[13][14] and was designated as a terrorist group in Canada[15][16] and New Zealand.
Why are Proud Boys declared a far right strictly violent street gang terrorist group, while ANTIFA is declared a highly decentralized left-wing anti-fascist and anti-racist political movement that is mostly non-violent?
This page clearly paints proud boys in a strictly highly exaggerated negative light. Proud Boys are not strictly violent, and not strictly neo facist and in most cases are peaceful. This gets a mention in the antifa first paragraph, yet proud boys don't get that same favorable courtesy? Please adjust the sentence to mention that they engage in both violent AND non violent activity, just like ANTIFA. Please also remove the neofascist mention, this is not factual. 2601:243:702:4D50:3EFA:6492:1103:95FC ( talk) 15:37, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
It's not really clear what could objectively be meant by "fascist" in this article, if anything, other than perhaps nationalism and civilian political violence, which is not enough to define someone as fascist: by this definition, the Koumintang, the Vietcong, the French resistance, and the Hong Kong independence movement are all "fascist." Also, in defense of the claim that McInnes is far-right, you cite that his organization is designated as a terrorist group in Canada. So is the Communist Party of Peru. Does that make them far-right?
Of course, anyone who were to read this article would realize that "fascist" is being used in a purely juveinle, pejorative, subjective sense. The organization does not describe itself as such and has excommunicated members who promote it. It is nearly as absurd to describe the Proud Boys as fascist as it is to describe Antifa as fascist; both of them share vague cosmetic similarities with fascism, as well as in tactics, but clearly neither are fascist. Harry Sibelius ( talk) 10:37, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Don't feed these kinds of posts. They are not constructive attempts to improve the article, and thus fail WP:FORUM. I'll HAT instead of deleting, since we've got replies already. — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 00:01, 10 March 2023 (UTC) |
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The Proud Boys aren't Neo-Fascist. They are definitely Nationalist but aren't Facists. They wish to protect the Constitution in it's original form and insure that the process isn't hijacked by radicalized Leftist elements. 184.55.99.169 ( talk) 16:03, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
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The group is led by Enrique Tarrio, an Afro-Cuban, who says "I'm pretty brown, I'm Cuban. There's nothing white supremacist about me." Gouncbeatduke ( talk) 21:20, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
The Proud Boys are an opportunistic hate group whose message of white male chauvinism is infused with religious and nationalist symbols. It says in the body that
However, the ideology of the Proud Boys seems to be ever fluctuating, as are its targets. It has been pointed out that founder McInnes plays a duplicitous rhetorical game in rejecting the label of white nationalist and alt-right while espousing many tenets associated therewith.This paper says much the same thing (see especially the section
Denial & Shifting Blame: DARVO as a Discursive Tactic, which focuses on how they obscure their white nationalist ties.) Other good sources include "Proud Boys and the White Ethnostate: How the Alt-Right Is Warping the American Imagination" [2], an entire book from an academic publisher exploring modern white nationalism via the Proud Boys. In terms of news coverage, Politico calls them a "white nationalist fight club" [3], a characterization that another academic paper has cited approvingly. So while they deny that they are white nationalist, I don't think that this is treated seriously in academia - they're frequently covered in-depth as a white nationalist group, and are often used as an example of what a modern white nationalist group looks like. -- Aquillion ( talk) 05:52, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
References
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The founder, Gavin Mclnnes once wrote a list about the things he hates about Israel, one of the Proud Boys leaders said Zionists are criminals who are trying destroy our civilization. Bradenmeddleton ( talk) 05:21, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
It is unclear how Chapman’s call has been received by others in the group. Other Proud Boys channels on Telegram have not reflected the changes he wants to institute, and a message from the administrator of one said, “No, we are not the Proud Goys. No, Kyle didn’t stage a coup,” and then referred to him with an ableist slur.If this change were broadly accepted, I would expect additional sources would have reported on it in the intervening two plus years. VQuakr ( talk) 23:27, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
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The word "always" needs to be changed in the sentence
"The Proud Boys are known for their opposition to left-wing and progressive groups and for their support for former U.S. President Donald Trump,[1][10] who has always denounced such groups, including the Proud Boys.[15][16]"
because it simply isn't true, as later described in the article.
I suggest the following
"The Proud Boys are known for their opposition to left-wing and progressive groups and for their support for former U.S. President Donald Trump,[1][10] who sometimes denounced and sometimes offered acknowledgement of such groups, including the Proud Boys.[15][16]" Chuckjonesbabygorilla ( talk) 03:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
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So i looked through the PDF linked in Reference No. 1. The word "Chauvinism" are mentioned two times, "Authoritarianism" are mentioned one time, "islamophobia" are mentioned 0 times and none of those are in relation to the subject of the article.
Does the reference really support the statements or am i missing something?
Overall it might be a good idea to diversify the references for the ideology section of the infobox Trade ( talk) 18:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
The episode should be added to the proud boys history section.
References:
"In March 2017, a Proud Boys member named Brandon Vaughan of the Ottawa, Canada, chapter assaulted a Palestinian-American community college professor. Videos of the assault show Proud Boys members fighting alongside the Jewish Defense League, a right-wing militant organization." https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/proud-boys
"Vaughan is a prominent member of the Ottawa Proud Boys, a right-wing group that describes itself as “Western chauvinists.” He is also a regular at far right protests in Ottawa, Toronto and elsewhere in Canada." https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/warrant-issued-after-ottawa-man-skips-u-s-arraignment-on-assault-hate-crime-charges https://canoe.com/news/local-news/warrant-issued-after-ottawa-man-skips-u-s-arraignment-on-assault-hate-crime-charges/wcm/5b97e2c2-4875-47c4-a5e9-730ae5a8e916 93.45.229.98 ( talk) 13:47, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
I propose to add the following:
RWDS - Right Wing Death Squad https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2023/05/09/what-to-know-about-right-wing-death-squad-phrase-linked-to-texas-shooter-proud-boys/
Hoppean snake https://theintercept.com/2021/02/04/pinochet-far-right-hoppean-snake/
If you know of anything else please say. 93.45.229.98 ( talk) 13:54, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
The neo-fascism template is "open" and takes up much of the page. In the other Wikipedia articles it is "closed" (see show/hide).
There is also a neo-Nazi template that I am not quite sure what it is for. The group is not listed in that template. Also, why in the major action (in the militant organization template) is there not the January 6 Capitol attack instead of "terrorism" which is much more vague?
The organization, formerly registered as Proud Boys International LLC, is now decentralized; the groups are semi-autonomous:
"The Proud Boys is a decentralized organization with semi-autonomous chapters in several U.S. states."
https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/proud-boys
From the way it is written on the ADL website, the organization appears to be international:
"Proud Boys have international chapters in Canada, Britain, Ireland, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Australia and the Philippines."
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/proud-boys-0
Kyle Chapman's expulsion is missing.
https://www.insider.com/ousted-proud-boys-underling-attempts-white-supremacist-coup-2020-11
Libertarian Party candidates and Proud Boys members:
Alex Furman
Augustus Sol Invictus before being expelled from the Proud Boys
https://reason.com/2016/11/07/florida-senate-candidate-struggles-bears/
While affiliation with the GOP is present, affiliations with the Libertarian Party have been omitted. In my opinion they are to be incorporated into the article.
93.45.229.98 ( talk) 16:56, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
The article on Augusto Pinochet states, "However, he and his government are generally excluded from academic typologies of fascism." (see /info/en/?search=Augusto_Pinochet#Accusations_of_fascism); the sources would all seem to be reliable.
The argument made by Samantha Kutner starts with the premise that Pinochet is fascist, ergo the Proud Boys who glorify him are fascists. (see Proud Boys as a Fascist Organisation pp. 10-11)
It is not objective to write Proud Boys is a fascist organization (with this argument) and such a position falls under WP:FRINGE and WP:WIKIVOICE.
It should then be pointed out that not all sources describe Proud Boys simply as a neo-fascist group, but with other ideologies so quoting only one label at the beginning of the article is POV-pushing. N.B. Both CTC Sentinel and ICC are based on Kutner's position.
Additionally, it would be better to write: is considered neo-fascist by some scholars for supporting Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet. Instead of trying to make the article incomprehensible to a general audience as it is done now. 93.45.229.98 ( talk) 16:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
The article should have a section about "ideology" and specific positions. MiguelMadeira ( talk) 11:20, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
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Considering that: academic sources use "crypto-fascist" and "proto-fascist"; that the Proud Boys are not inspired by a classical fascist regime, but by Pinochet's Chile (which is not described as neo-fascist by most scholars, but is described as semi-fascist and/or neoliberal (see Pinochetism)). I suggest changing " neo-fascist" (X) to " crypto-fascist/ protofascist" (Y). Alternatively, I suggest adding more context. 93.45.229.98 ( talk) 08:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
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Donald Trump said "stand back and stand by" in September, not October. Atubofsilverware ( talk) 1:38, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Recently Canada designated the Proud Boys as a terrorist organization. The article currently states this fact in the info box. Should this information be included in the info box? Is it due?
Thanks Bacon drum 20:53, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
We should never accept a government designation of a group as authoritative. In addition to their lack of accuracy, governments frequently add and delete groups for political reasons. U.S. backed insurgents are called freedom-fighters, otherwise they are terrorists.
I wouldn't call the Proud Boys white supremacist on the basis of a letter by Canadian civil rights activists, per "Context matter." I would look for a source that specifically addresses the issue of whether they are a white supremacist group. A geology textbook for example might mention in passing biographical detail about Rick Perry, the former governor of Texas. But that wouldn't be my go to source if I was editing his article. Presumably they got their information from somewhere else. Since it's not particularly significant to the writers what he majored in at college, their statement would be less reliable that a biography written about him.
17:31, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
intelligence organizations are unreliable- this entire line of argumentation is absurd, as though "terrorist organization" has an objective, concrete definition that can be neatly applied in every case, completely outside the national agencies which make the designations. The question isn't whether the Proud Boys are objectively (?) a terrorist organization, but whether a country has designated them as such. In this case, they have. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Overarching note here: the people who want to label the Proud Boys with the contentious label of white nationalist have only cited Canadian sources, and two articles (from NPR and NBC) that say the Proud Boys are white nationalist in passing without any evidence cited in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.144.101 ( talk • contribs)
There are three sources used to justify the label, and only one of the three actually claim that the proud boys are a white nationalist organisation.
In its designation, the Canadian government said members of the Proud Boys “espouse misogynistic, Islamophobic, anti-Semitic, anti-immigrant, and/or white supremacist ideologies and associate with white supremacist groups.”The New York Times doesn't describe them as a white supremacist organisation, it's just quoting what the Canadian government said. They instead chose to describe them as the
"Proud Boys, a far-right, all-male organization".
Proud Boys, the far-right extremist group, and then goes onto say that they are
a key player in the U.S. white supremacist movement. This is describing in vague terms their broader relation to "the white supremacist movement", it is again not describing the Proud Boys as a white nationalist organisation, and is clear in their designation of them as a "far-right extremist group".
"The Proud Boys is a white nationalist organization with multiple U.S. chapters."
I don't think a single line in an NPR piece is enough to justify the label. Reliable sources discuss the Proud Boys a lot, and all (bar that one sentence in NPR) seem to only go as far as to describe them as something like "far-right extremists" or "neo-fascists" at the most. Wikipedia should describe the Proud Boys as reliable sources do and not create our own spin. Volteer1 ( talk) 15:53, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
"the Proud Boys, who some of the US agencies label as “white supremacists” and “extremists”, and others as a “gang”". That seems worth mentioning and shouldn't just be "disregarded", but is not something that supports flatly stating in the opening sentence that it is true of them if reliable sources don't claim it to be so. Volteer1 ( talk)
Comment - A number of organisations monitoring them have noted the connection:
Again, this was a very quick look, I'm not convinced that it's an unverifiable claim, it's verifiable...also, NPR is a reliable source. I see no reason to remove on verifiability grounds - numerous reliable sources describe them as such. Their leader being Afro Cuban is irrelevant, people do all kinds of crazy stupid shit all then time, who knows why they do it. Bacon drum 05:16, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
The FBI has described the Proud Boys as an “extremist group with ties to white nationalism”in the body of the article, which is again the same as the previous two you mentioned. To sum up, we now have two sources for the label:
Far right for sure but I don't think white nationalists are a proper description. Where in any of their official literature is there word one about white nationalism?
Im not a Proud Boy myself but lean conservative and I've met many Proud Boys that aren't white.
Can't help but feel there is some serious spin goin on here. Iscream22 ( talk) 18:23, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
"A statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view. Otherwise, individual opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources." Even the left wing SLPC would be scared to call them white nationalists. They would be sued. Whoever is enjoying this power trip controlling this article, hang it up and remove the contentious label immediately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.144.101 ( talk) 23:05, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Also no conservative sources are cited which would balance the article. You would find that the term white nationalist is only used by left-wing sources. /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Conservatism/References — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.144.101 ( talk) 23:06, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Also no conservative sources are cited which would balance the article.
Also no conservative sources are cited which would balance the articleThat is not true. We cite The Wall Street Journal for example, which our own article says has a "conservative political editorial line", the Toronto Sun "a conservative broadsheet", the National Post "has retained a conservative editorial stance", the Chicago Tribune "typically conservative" and the National Review a "conservative editorial magazine". Vexations ( talk) 14:07, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
Is the claim labeling the Proud Boys "White nationalist" verifiable and due?
Thanks Bacon drum 21:16, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
NoPer Fizzbuzz306 et al. We need to redirect the gap between associated with and actually. Springee ( talk) 23:00, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
Just noting for talk page watchers that this is now at AN: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Closure review request for Proud Boys RfC. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:09, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
The context of this post is that I've just closed the long RfC above.
Taking off my closer hat, and speaking as an uninvolved non-American who has read the above discussion and the whole article carefully from top to bottom, I would encourage the community to consider whether it really is absolutely necessary to use all five-or-so labels for the Proud Boys that we currently employ in sentence one. Where we can truthfully say that an organization is neo-fascist, it does seem tautological to call it white nationalist and far right as well. Equally, where we can truthfully say that it's white nationalist, it seems rather redundant to call it far right and neo-fascist. I do feel that the current first sentence whiffs more of a thesaurus than an encyclopaedia.— S Marshall T/ C 16:24, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
Since the RFC has been closed as no consensus, here is a proposal. There are multiple RS that describe the PB as white nationalist, but the highest quality RS do not make the association routinely, rather making claims of association and ties of the PB with white nationalism and white supremacism (e.g. the SPLC). So:
Proposal - The Proud Boys is a far-right, neo-fascist and exclusively male organization that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States and Canada. The group also has been associated with and members routinely maintain ties to white nationalist and white supremacist extremists.
Things to discuss:
The PB have been associated with white nationalismor less indirect
Members of the PB have ties to white nationalism
Mvbaron ( talk) 08:27, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
Keep in mind that the FBI's opinion on the matter is already expressed lower in the article, here and here.
I think a condensed source-stack in the lead (similar to what we have already for other descriptors) is appropriate with something along the lines of what you posted, and perhaps incorporating in some way the sources which were more happy to LABEL the PB — seems a poor omission to discard them entirely. Characterizing the Proud Boys in general as having this association is probably warranted. I think sources reflect that, along with their general history (e.g. the origin at Taki's Magazine) -- Chillabit ( talk) 11:00, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
I think the RFC above shows that there is no consensus to LABEL the PB as white nationalist, so we can't do that - with or without stacked sources.Huh? If there was consensus not to label the PB as white nationalist, this would be true, but there was no consensus. GorillaWarfare (talk) 14:14, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
The group also has been associated with, and members routinely maintain ties to, white nationalist and white supremacist extremists.. GorillaWarfare (talk) 14:22, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
The RfC did not say there is no consensus for the label, it found there was no consensus to change it.Not sure if you're following the AN discussion, but there is ongoing discussion there about this particular part of the close. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:24, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
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whoever made this did not actaully do any research and 2/3 of the references are incorrect, Arkadisevyan ( talk) 23:59, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
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Add homophobia 198.255.141.110 ( talk) 03:53, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
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The Proud Boys are not what Wikipedia says they are. Someone is trying to label a bunch of GOOD MEN as a bunch of terrorists. Absolutely pathetic. All the Proud Boys are, are a group of patriotic men, who are PROUD of their country. They are PROUD to be men. And they are PROUD to defend their country against terrorists. Basket-Head ( talk) 17:32, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
"The surprising answer to this question is that the Proud Boys enjoy significant support from a slice of the Chinese American community and the broader Chinese diaspora."
Their gifts made up more than 80% of the $106,107 raised for medical costs for members of the Proud Boys who were stabbed during violent clashes in Washington in mid-December.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/05/04/proud-boys-chinese-americans-community-support-donations/7343111002/ TuffStuffMcG ( talk) 10:05, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Newslinger, Emir of Wikipedia, and Volteer1: Proposing to bump the talk page archiving to something like 90 days. Newslinger, can you explain your concerns with slowing down the archiving of this talk page? I see you and Emir have each undone changes to slow the archive speed ( Newslinger undid Emir's, Emir undid Volteer's, though Emir's appears to have just been based on Newslinger's). There was a period where this talk page was so active that 14-day archiving made sense, but bumping it to 90 days would seem to make sense now. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:54, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
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Extreme right (conservative) & Fascists are polar opposites, as Fascism is a form of socialism. Please correct the opening description. 64.19.79.34 ( talk) 01:37, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
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Needs a proper citation for declaring the group a terrorist organization. The link is to a New York Times article declaring them as such an organization. The group hasn't been formally declared a terrorist organization by law enforcement. Skeszler92 ( talk) 18:15, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
Also states the group has "folded" while saying it's status is "active". This is clearly a contradiction. Skeszler92 ( talk) 18:22, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
👍🏻 Skeszler92 ( talk) 20:30, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
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Add Category:2021 disestablishments in Canada since the organization is dissolved in Canada. 2603:6010:D307:98CA:65F1:5975:317C:B2BF ( talk) 01:59, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The description of this organization starts with "The Proud Boys is a far-right, neo-fascist, and exclusively male organization that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States.[1]" which impugns this group of people from the very beginning. There is no evidence of any kind that support the claim that they are fascist in any form or manner. As fascism is actually a political ideology based upon the idea of an authoritarian form of government, which this group has never professed to support.
Furthermore, as this article progresses, it continues to make outlandish claims that are not supported by any facts, just opinions, of well documented biased editors and opinion pundits in the news media.
My suggestion for this article is that it be completely wiped and the article re-written from scratch by independent, fact-based content so that people who may not know who or what a proud boy is can make up their own minds instead of being hammered with an obviously negative OPINION of who or what they are without any factual or formal basis for such opinion.
This would be no different than a conservative writing an extremely negative wikipedia article about Antifa in the same fashion. It's unacceptable.
73.53.59.159 ( talk) 01:01, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
They joined the Wisconsin Proud Boys looking for brotherhood. They found racism, bullying and antisemitism. Acroterion (talk) 00:33, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
I came across this article from USAToday that talks about how the Proud Boys enjoy strong support from the Chinese-American community and saw a wave of donations starting in December. Might be worthwhile to include some information about the racial demographics of Proud Boys membership and supporters, given that they're widely viewed as a white nationalist/white supremacist organization. Some media outlets have also accused the Proud Boys of using minorities (including Tarrio) as cover to hide its alleged bigotry [17], though I don't pay enough attention to these people to make a judgment either way. Incerto501 ( talk) 15:56, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
[18] and [19]. Of course we'd want more and better sources. We can't use Kos and there's no consensus on Vice. Doug Weller talk 14:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Yesterdays clashes with far left "anti fascist" terrorists in Portland should be included in the article as they were notable and well publicized, and at least two Proud Boys were involved as organizers in the event who later participated in the violence. History Man1812 ( talk) 13:13, 23 August 2021 (UTC)History_Man1812
It appears very redundant because both ideologies are very similar. Additionally, I did not want to get into an edit-war with the other contributors, so I would ask that here to better know. MarioSuperstar77 ( talk) 17:10, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
TuffStuffMcG ( talk) 16:21, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Anon the group its self condemns Fascism, it does not feel right putting neo fascists there — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.224.56.242 ( talk) 14:51, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
They are an overtly anti fascist group which can be verified by their charter and multiple other sources. Much of this entry is verifiably false the fact that many of its "sources" are opinion pieces by far left activist groups is enough to make one lose faith in the collective integrity of Wikipedia altogether. Savatage2k ( talk) 10:27, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The recommendation for a rewriting of the introduction was addressed briefly above, I don't see this exact question addressed: Why are the Proud Boys considered a "fascist" organization.
The response to one objection to its use above, from "Jorm", proves its own point by using words that have no meaning, and uses them to ostensibly respond to the request.
I can see why that request had problems since it does not provide for the possibility of a right-wing socialism. The political term "fascism" usually denotes a political movement or organization of some kind to the right, even though it has socialist elements. This seems obvious since Nazis are usually considered fascists and the name itself includes the word: National Socialism. The Proud Boys don't seem to advocate any socialist positions, in fact quite the opposite. That they should be classified to the right seems hard to dispute, but the description of the group as "fascist" is very questionable. It is so for at least one reason: The term "fascism" has proved very difficult to define with any specificity despite nearly 100 years of trying, since Mussolini established his first " Fasci Italiani di Combattimento" around this time a century ago.
This topic shows how the traditional right/left spectrum has been breaking down for well over a century, with some graphs showing the extremes of both left and right meeting to form "totalitarian" systems of government. This is not the place for an extended political discussion, but it think Wikipedia has a large systemic problem when it comes to treatment of groups that are identified on the right, from the mildly conservative all the way to the extreme right. They fall into the trap of the progressive/left of using the most extreme adjectives to characterize certain groups, with the clear purpose of pushing them into the the extremist category. The "they" here are the uber-editors and those making the decisions at the Wiki administrator level. I tend to the think calling the Proud Boys "fascist" is more pejorative than explanatory. It is another example of the broad breakdown of the term, a process described by Orwell in 1944. He said that the word has ceased to mean much other than "something not desirable". (See "What is Fascism?", George Orwell; https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/39403-the-word-fascism-has-now-no-meaning-except-in-so)
I would be happy to attempt a discussion of whether the Proud Boys qualify as fascist from what I know on the subject, but something tells me it would be instantly reverted were I to try. So, I leave it as a topic worth discussing since it seems any group deserves to be accurately characterized and not have adjectives repeated from sources once deemed reputable that have degraded in quality. Sych (talk) 11:04, 8 July 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sychonic ( talk • contribs)
This is not the place for an extended political discussionYes. soibangla ( talk) 15:29, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
The Proud Boys are an avowed anti-fascist group which is verifiable through their charter. Saying that there are "reliable sources" that say otherwise only makes those sources verifiable unreliable. Furthermore, they are an all inclusive group which is expressly stated at many points in their application process where they expressly warn against "hate" or racism in any way. Much of this article cites far left sources including the Anti Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center which are widely known for their efforts to smear and misinform Savatage2k ( talk) 10:34, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
I'm gonna agree with this one. The neofascism article itself links to the fact that fascist is often used as an insult against political groups.
Fascism, while developing from socialism, and having socialistic (more accurately, corporatist) elements, is primarily ultranationalist and anti communist, and thus belongs on the far right. However, not all far right ideologies are fascist. Theocracies, absolute monarchies, etc.
While the Proud Boys qualify for some aspects of fascism (ultranationalist, populist, nativist, etc.) I haven't seen much evidence of them supporting opposition to democracy as a government form, or a corporatist economic structure (a tripartite system with government, business, and unions making decisions together). Owlblocks ( talk) 08:34, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
I might suggest a couple of tweaks to the lead. The fist one is the redundant back-to-back repetition of "multiple racist events". And the second tweak is to fit MOS a bit better:
According to The Daily Beast, though the group officially rejects white supremacy, "members have nonetheless appeared at multiple racist events". Members have also engaged in
multiple racist events andevents centered around fascist, anti-left, and anti-socialist violence; and events centered around ...The Proud Boys glorifies violenceThe group is frequently accused of glorifying violence,
Pyrrho the Skeptic ( talk) 17:54, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Though the group officially rejects white supremacy, members have participated in many racist events and events centered around fascist, anti-left, and anti-socialist violence.
See [21]. Doug Weller talk 11:54, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
complaining, not an actual request
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Proud boys in not far right or extremists. They are traditional and patriotic. 2001:569:5109:8000:4058:4842:3F02:5245 ( talk) 19:31, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
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There are only four sources cited for labelling the Proud Boys network as neo-fascist, two of which actually do not use the word neo-fascist but protofascist and cryptofascist. Out of the two remaining sources, one is an editorial piece by Peter McLaren, who is not a political scientist, and is not in the least trying to be neutral (boasting about punching a life-size picture of Donald Trump). I do not think that article qualifies as a neutral source. The only remaining source, the New York Times, does call the group neo-fascist, but does not explain why, and which definition of neo-fascism they used.
I think this article's neutrality would be greatly helped if more sources were added justifying the neo-fascist label, and if those sources also clarified why the group meets a specific definition of neo-fascism. As an example, I would look at the wikipedia page on the Rise Above Movement, where the labels used to describe the group are much more well-defined in the sources referred to. The ADL and the SPLC are generally good sources for these kinds of subjects.
-- 82.169.68.56 ( talk) 16:33, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
Given that Proud Boys attempted an insurrection, is it a proscribed organisation? If not, why not? Other organisations which wish to overturn the democratic basis of government are disallowed from their members joining public/civil service/government organisations. What efforts have been made to stop Proud Boys from infiltrating government agencies? 2.28.151.187 ( talk) 16:09, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
I ask because they've been removed from List of neo-Nazi organizations by User:Sjö as unsourced in the article. They are in the Neo-Nazism template but in List of neo-fascist groups. And is it realistic now to distinguish? My experience is that these terms are used interchangeably. Doug Weller talk 17:28, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
[25] "Proud Boys Regroup, Focusing on School Boards and Town Councils The far-right nationalist group has become increasingly active at school board meetings and town council gatherings across the country." If you can't read it and want to see a copy, email me. Doug Weller talk 11:58, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
this isn’t anything productive, just NOTFORUM complaining
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Tge Proud Boys are not racist or fascist. This is a totally false label put on them by the left. Their leader is a person of color. Their crime is being the enemy of ANTIFA. Which is a communist anti capitalist organization. 75.115.34.92 ( talk) 01:28, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
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If you want to communicate who this organization is perhaps you should not focus on the personal life of its high profile members and focus on their beliefs. It reads as a personal smear, not an explanation of who these people are. All you have done here is give credit to their claim that they are unfairly represented in the media. The truth is the truth and attempting to colour the truth with irrelevant factoids only works to cloud the truth. This is supposed to be a place where we share the truth, free of spin. 2607:FEA8:545F:87B0:1C5:E97:7CF2:C148 ( talk) 16:28, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
This has video of a Proud Boys leader brutally attacking an innocent black woman and yelling racial slurs at her. Since he's a leader of the Proud Boys, I think this info could be especially useful in the article:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/andrew-walls-proud-boys-assault-video_n_621c87a3e4b0afc668c2eda2
Mulva? Gipple? Dolores! ( talk) 16:40, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
--- Another Believer ( Talk) 22:44, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
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Change the first sentence ending...FROM "American Organization" TO an "Anti-American Organization" 2600:387:C:6F12:0:0:0:9 ( talk) 19:04, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
What about the proud boys actually is fascist, not the fake definition but the actual real fact definition of fascism, I see no fascist idea's (nationalism is not fascism) and clearly 0 "white supremercy", Miriam Webster defines fascism as such, "often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition", proud boys stand for decentralization (states retaining independent rights and privileges over the central us government) and the continuing of the current American political system (elected officials otherwise known as democracy), what you describe with the "fascist" label is what Antifa stand for but you haven't labeled Antifa as "neo-fascist", when did Wikipedia(an information platform) become so politically charged. 101.100.148.250 ( talk) 02:57, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
The redirect POYB is referring to something added to the infobox in this edit citing the ADL. I have confirmed that to the ADL as claimed, but almost nowhere else reliable (if the ADL can be considered reliable on this topic, I don't know as I don't edit this topic) backs the claim up. Is this a true alias of the Proud Boys? Sennecaster ( Chat) 00:38, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
It is not on the ideology page Option 1 have neo fascism in both Option 2 have cryptofascism in both 176.72.43.90 ( talk) 11:05, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
New information about the role of the Proud Boys came out after the start of the January 6th Hearings on June 9th, 2022:
Taken together the new information shows:
Key Citations
If you have not watched the New York Times investigative video in the first article, I strongly recommend it. I have put much of these new findings together. There are multiple references to the NYT video, each providing different times in the video for the events or text cited, but the difference in times does not seem to show up unless you try to go to the YouTube video of the NYT investigative report.
Veritas Aeterna ( talk) 00:46, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
The lead refers to Enrique Tarrio both as "chairman" and as "former chairman". The latter is cited from this press release about his indictment. A lot of news articles also refer to him as the former chairman, but I can't find anything about a change of leadership or a new leader. Perhaps the group is considered to no longer have a recognized chairman due to the statement from the Alabama, Indiana and Oklahoma chapters (quoted in the article) that they don't recognize his authority. Someone with more insight into these issues should resolve this inconsistency; in case he is no longer considered chairman, the article on Enrique Tarrio himself would also need to be updated. Joriki ( talk) 07:52, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
It's here. [26] Doug Weller talk 14:28, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
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The opening sentence should be changed to this:
"The Proud Boys is an American far-right, neo-fascist, white nationalist, street gang that is exclusively a male organization that engages in a range of street-level violence and promotes and participates in political violence in the United States.[1][7][8]
additional cites:
The second sentence should be changed to this:
"Despite the Proud Boys penchant for violence and street gang characteristics[Campbell, 2022; Reid & Valasik, 2020] the group is designated as a terrorist group in Canada[9][10] and New Zealand,[6] in the United States the group is regularly Mavalasik ( talk) 18:18, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
The Proud Boys is an American far-right, neo-fascist, white nationalist, and exclusively male organization that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States. Among various definitions, it has been called a street gang and was designated as a terrorist group in Canada and New Zealand. The Proud Boys are known for their opposition to left-wing and progressive groups and their support for former U.S. President Donald Trump.Pyrrho the Skipper ( talk) 23:19, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
Partly done: Added the gist of it, with edits based on discussion. Pyrrho the Skipper ( talk) 23:16, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Is there a reason that you did not include the other cite by Reid & Valasik, which is actual academic research vs. Campbell’s journalist piece? They are the only two substantive pieces that are sea with this issue, and Reid & Valasik came out first. Can you have both listed? Mavalasik ( talk) 23:57, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
The Politico link that you included with the Campbell cite, is just referencing his book. It is not an independent supporting cite, like Reid & Valasik would be. Mavalasik ( talk) 20:59, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
In the second paragraph of the History and Organization section there needs to be more discussion about Proud Boys being a street gang first and foremost. The material I am suggesting can be added at the beginning of the second paragraph. From Proud Boys inception McInnes has publicly labeled the group as being a gang (Rogan 2017). Self-nomination is consistently shown as being one of the most robust predictors of gang involvement (Esbensen et al., 2001). Despite there being no universal academic or legal definition of street gang, Proud Boys clearly meet the Eurogang definition, which has a strong consensus among gang scholars, “any durable, street-oriented youth group whose involvement in illegal activity is part of their group identity” (Decker, Pyrooz, & Densley, 2022). Proud Boys actively appeal to marginalized men, who yearn for a nostalgic past of hegemonic masculinity where the bestowed privilege of being male were not questioned, sharing a collective identity (DeCook, 2018; Reid & Valasik, 2020). That identity is a hipster persona that deploys humor and irony to facilitate far-right arguments attacking the political, social, and cultural status quo, opposing feminism, immigration, political correctness, and establishment politics (DeCook, 2018). Proud Boys routine behaviors and characteristics are also analogous with street gangs, primarily hanging out together, drinking beer, and participating in a variety of criminal acts, primarily violence ([10]; Reid & Valasik, 2020; Rogan 2017). Additionally, Proud Boys adopted a specific set of colors, yellow and black, along with a mascot, a cockerel, frequently worn on Fred Perry polo shirts in public as a uniform to clearly display group affiliation [274][275][276]. Proud Boys also use violent initiation ceremonies to “jump in” new members, along with a variety of other identifiers, such as getting a Proud Boy tattoo, that further indicate group loyalty and reinforce collective identity [10].
Cites:
Rogan, J. (2017). Joe Rogan Experience #920—Gavin McInnes [Video]. https://www.bitchute.com/video/lrRL5PzeOxu6/
Esbensen, F.-A., Winfree, L. T., He, N., & Taylor, T. J. (2001). Youth gangs and definitional issues: When is a gang a gang, and why does it matter? Crime & Delinquency, 47(1), 105-130.
Decker, S. H., Pyrooz, D.C., & Densley, J. A. (2022) On Gangs. Temple University Press.
DeCook, J. R. (2018). Memes and symbolic violence: #Proudboys and the use of memes for propaganda and the construction of collective identity. Learning, Media and Technology, 43(4), 485-504.
Reid, S. E., & Valasik, M. (2020). Alt-right gangs: A hazy shade of white. University of California Press. ISBN 9780520300453
I will note that I am a tenured professor of criminology and criminal justice, an expert in street gangs, and one of the few academics that are treating Proud Boys with the concern that they warrant. I am citing my own work, along with Andy Campbell's brand-new book, because they are the most appropriate pieces of research that clearly articulate the rational for why Proud Boys are a street gang. Mavalasik ( talk) 14:16, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
McInnes has publicly labeled the group as a gang, and criminologists have pointed to the Proud Boys initiation ceremonies, involvement in criminal and violent behavior, identifying apparel and tattoos, and other characteristics as consistent with street gangs.[1][2][3]
Regarding recent categorization discussion, the article already exists in Category:Fascism in the United States and Category:Proud Boys, both of which are diffusing subcategories in the Category:Far-right politics in the United States tree. Please refer to WP:CATSPECIFIC. ButlerBlog ( talk) 18:21, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
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requesting more substantive changes, if they are justified with reference to reliable sources, and not the subject of ongoing discussion Coomer 3 ( talk) 14:47, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
What kind of grammar fuckery is this?
"It" is an organization. It, it, it.
That edit was made by User:Recobben. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 05:02, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
This is the type of situation where we should be consistent and remove all ambiguity. We can do that by always referring to the people as "members" and their organization as some synonym of "organization." --
Valjean (
talk) (
PING me) 18:11, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Antifa (/ænˈtiːfə, ˈænti(ˌ)fə/) is a left-wing anti-fascist and anti-racist political movement in the United States. It consists of a highly decentralized array of autonomous groups that use both nonviolent direct action and violence to achieve their aims.[1][2][3] Most antifa political activism is nonviolent, involving poster and flyer campaigns, mutual aid, speeches, protest marches, and community organizing.
The Proud Boys is an American far-right, neo-fascist, and exclusively male organization that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States.[1][11][12] It has been called a street gang[13][14] and was designated as a terrorist group in Canada[15][16] and New Zealand.
Why are Proud Boys declared a far right strictly violent street gang terrorist group, while ANTIFA is declared a highly decentralized left-wing anti-fascist and anti-racist political movement that is mostly non-violent?
This page clearly paints proud boys in a strictly highly exaggerated negative light. Proud Boys are not strictly violent, and not strictly neo facist and in most cases are peaceful. This gets a mention in the antifa first paragraph, yet proud boys don't get that same favorable courtesy? Please adjust the sentence to mention that they engage in both violent AND non violent activity, just like ANTIFA. Please also remove the neofascist mention, this is not factual. 2601:243:702:4D50:3EFA:6492:1103:95FC ( talk) 15:37, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
It's not really clear what could objectively be meant by "fascist" in this article, if anything, other than perhaps nationalism and civilian political violence, which is not enough to define someone as fascist: by this definition, the Koumintang, the Vietcong, the French resistance, and the Hong Kong independence movement are all "fascist." Also, in defense of the claim that McInnes is far-right, you cite that his organization is designated as a terrorist group in Canada. So is the Communist Party of Peru. Does that make them far-right?
Of course, anyone who were to read this article would realize that "fascist" is being used in a purely juveinle, pejorative, subjective sense. The organization does not describe itself as such and has excommunicated members who promote it. It is nearly as absurd to describe the Proud Boys as fascist as it is to describe Antifa as fascist; both of them share vague cosmetic similarities with fascism, as well as in tactics, but clearly neither are fascist. Harry Sibelius ( talk) 10:37, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Don't feed these kinds of posts. They are not constructive attempts to improve the article, and thus fail WP:FORUM. I'll HAT instead of deleting, since we've got replies already. — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 00:01, 10 March 2023 (UTC) |
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The Proud Boys aren't Neo-Fascist. They are definitely Nationalist but aren't Facists. They wish to protect the Constitution in it's original form and insure that the process isn't hijacked by radicalized Leftist elements. 184.55.99.169 ( talk) 16:03, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
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The group is led by Enrique Tarrio, an Afro-Cuban, who says "I'm pretty brown, I'm Cuban. There's nothing white supremacist about me." Gouncbeatduke ( talk) 21:20, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
The Proud Boys are an opportunistic hate group whose message of white male chauvinism is infused with religious and nationalist symbols. It says in the body that
However, the ideology of the Proud Boys seems to be ever fluctuating, as are its targets. It has been pointed out that founder McInnes plays a duplicitous rhetorical game in rejecting the label of white nationalist and alt-right while espousing many tenets associated therewith.This paper says much the same thing (see especially the section
Denial & Shifting Blame: DARVO as a Discursive Tactic, which focuses on how they obscure their white nationalist ties.) Other good sources include "Proud Boys and the White Ethnostate: How the Alt-Right Is Warping the American Imagination" [2], an entire book from an academic publisher exploring modern white nationalism via the Proud Boys. In terms of news coverage, Politico calls them a "white nationalist fight club" [3], a characterization that another academic paper has cited approvingly. So while they deny that they are white nationalist, I don't think that this is treated seriously in academia - they're frequently covered in-depth as a white nationalist group, and are often used as an example of what a modern white nationalist group looks like. -- Aquillion ( talk) 05:52, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
References
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The founder, Gavin Mclnnes once wrote a list about the things he hates about Israel, one of the Proud Boys leaders said Zionists are criminals who are trying destroy our civilization. Bradenmeddleton ( talk) 05:21, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
It is unclear how Chapman’s call has been received by others in the group. Other Proud Boys channels on Telegram have not reflected the changes he wants to institute, and a message from the administrator of one said, “No, we are not the Proud Goys. No, Kyle didn’t stage a coup,” and then referred to him with an ableist slur.If this change were broadly accepted, I would expect additional sources would have reported on it in the intervening two plus years. VQuakr ( talk) 23:27, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
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The word "always" needs to be changed in the sentence
"The Proud Boys are known for their opposition to left-wing and progressive groups and for their support for former U.S. President Donald Trump,[1][10] who has always denounced such groups, including the Proud Boys.[15][16]"
because it simply isn't true, as later described in the article.
I suggest the following
"The Proud Boys are known for their opposition to left-wing and progressive groups and for their support for former U.S. President Donald Trump,[1][10] who sometimes denounced and sometimes offered acknowledgement of such groups, including the Proud Boys.[15][16]" Chuckjonesbabygorilla ( talk) 03:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
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So i looked through the PDF linked in Reference No. 1. The word "Chauvinism" are mentioned two times, "Authoritarianism" are mentioned one time, "islamophobia" are mentioned 0 times and none of those are in relation to the subject of the article.
Does the reference really support the statements or am i missing something?
Overall it might be a good idea to diversify the references for the ideology section of the infobox Trade ( talk) 18:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
The episode should be added to the proud boys history section.
References:
"In March 2017, a Proud Boys member named Brandon Vaughan of the Ottawa, Canada, chapter assaulted a Palestinian-American community college professor. Videos of the assault show Proud Boys members fighting alongside the Jewish Defense League, a right-wing militant organization." https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/proud-boys
"Vaughan is a prominent member of the Ottawa Proud Boys, a right-wing group that describes itself as “Western chauvinists.” He is also a regular at far right protests in Ottawa, Toronto and elsewhere in Canada." https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/warrant-issued-after-ottawa-man-skips-u-s-arraignment-on-assault-hate-crime-charges https://canoe.com/news/local-news/warrant-issued-after-ottawa-man-skips-u-s-arraignment-on-assault-hate-crime-charges/wcm/5b97e2c2-4875-47c4-a5e9-730ae5a8e916 93.45.229.98 ( talk) 13:47, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
I propose to add the following:
RWDS - Right Wing Death Squad https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2023/05/09/what-to-know-about-right-wing-death-squad-phrase-linked-to-texas-shooter-proud-boys/
Hoppean snake https://theintercept.com/2021/02/04/pinochet-far-right-hoppean-snake/
If you know of anything else please say. 93.45.229.98 ( talk) 13:54, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
The neo-fascism template is "open" and takes up much of the page. In the other Wikipedia articles it is "closed" (see show/hide).
There is also a neo-Nazi template that I am not quite sure what it is for. The group is not listed in that template. Also, why in the major action (in the militant organization template) is there not the January 6 Capitol attack instead of "terrorism" which is much more vague?
The organization, formerly registered as Proud Boys International LLC, is now decentralized; the groups are semi-autonomous:
"The Proud Boys is a decentralized organization with semi-autonomous chapters in several U.S. states."
https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/proud-boys
From the way it is written on the ADL website, the organization appears to be international:
"Proud Boys have international chapters in Canada, Britain, Ireland, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Australia and the Philippines."
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/proud-boys-0
Kyle Chapman's expulsion is missing.
https://www.insider.com/ousted-proud-boys-underling-attempts-white-supremacist-coup-2020-11
Libertarian Party candidates and Proud Boys members:
Alex Furman
Augustus Sol Invictus before being expelled from the Proud Boys
https://reason.com/2016/11/07/florida-senate-candidate-struggles-bears/
While affiliation with the GOP is present, affiliations with the Libertarian Party have been omitted. In my opinion they are to be incorporated into the article.
93.45.229.98 ( talk) 16:56, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
The article on Augusto Pinochet states, "However, he and his government are generally excluded from academic typologies of fascism." (see /info/en/?search=Augusto_Pinochet#Accusations_of_fascism); the sources would all seem to be reliable.
The argument made by Samantha Kutner starts with the premise that Pinochet is fascist, ergo the Proud Boys who glorify him are fascists. (see Proud Boys as a Fascist Organisation pp. 10-11)
It is not objective to write Proud Boys is a fascist organization (with this argument) and such a position falls under WP:FRINGE and WP:WIKIVOICE.
It should then be pointed out that not all sources describe Proud Boys simply as a neo-fascist group, but with other ideologies so quoting only one label at the beginning of the article is POV-pushing. N.B. Both CTC Sentinel and ICC are based on Kutner's position.
Additionally, it would be better to write: is considered neo-fascist by some scholars for supporting Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet. Instead of trying to make the article incomprehensible to a general audience as it is done now. 93.45.229.98 ( talk) 16:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
The article should have a section about "ideology" and specific positions. MiguelMadeira ( talk) 11:20, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
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Considering that: academic sources use "crypto-fascist" and "proto-fascist"; that the Proud Boys are not inspired by a classical fascist regime, but by Pinochet's Chile (which is not described as neo-fascist by most scholars, but is described as semi-fascist and/or neoliberal (see Pinochetism)). I suggest changing " neo-fascist" (X) to " crypto-fascist/ protofascist" (Y). Alternatively, I suggest adding more context. 93.45.229.98 ( talk) 08:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
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Donald Trump said "stand back and stand by" in September, not October. Atubofsilverware ( talk) 1:38, 22 December 2023 (UTC)