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the Yuan Shikai and Warlord gov't (1913 - 1928) isn't recognized by the current Taiwanese gov't. It was a different polical organization from the current ROC. So should its presidents be part of this list? -- voidvector
well maybe we're not talking about only the current Taiwanese government, but rather the ROC regime?
The ROC-KMT doesnt recognize the warlord government but it was internationally recognized as the legitimate ROC government. On the other hand, no foreign nation recognized the ROC-KMT until they took Beijing in 1928.-- Countakeshi 01:07, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
There is some recent (June 2004) disussion at Talk:Chiang_Kai-shek#Presidential_navigation_bar about redoing the list of "presidents" that is relevant here. -- Jia ng 23:37, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Somebody must be claiming the sovereignty of whole China before and during WWII. Also the Japan-backed governments in Manchuria and Northern China claimed part of China.
The Potsdam Declaration uses President of the National Government of the Republic of China, so it appears to be the official translation. I'm going to update the article accordingly. -- Countakeshi ( talk) 01:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
(Deleted what essentially amounted to little more than opinions.)
I have make this term bold because it is another name for president of ROC. However, someone keeps changing it back.-- Jerrypp772000 23:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
No it is not a term for the President of the Republic of China. He is the President of the Republic of China, not Taiwan. There is no need to make it bold. - Nationalist 00:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Please do not move this page without consensus and do not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point.-- Jiang 05:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The article should be moved to "President of Taiwan", the current title of the article can be confused with the President of (the People's Republic of) China.-- Mechanical Keyboarder 08:00, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
-- Damifb 20:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed the statement "[The usage] President of Taiwan ... is not prevalent in Taiwan itself", but I forgot to put the link to the table in the summary. Please see Talk:Premier of the Republic of China#Tables. — Sebastian 09:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Removed the statement about that premier's powers were reduced out of fear that the DPP would control the legislature. I don't recall this as a major reason for the constitutional changes and it doesn't make sense because by centralizing power with the President, the change made it easier for the DPP to take popwer.
Roadrunner ( talk) 21:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Uh oh. The KMT have taken over the Taiwanese government again. These grubby nationalists will stop at nothing to portray Taiwanese people, society, culture, politics etc etc as somehow connected to Chinese people, society, culture, politics etc etc. I am afraid that this development will only reinforce the perception that Taiwan is somehow a break-away or 'rebellious' state. As everyone knows, the KMT has no real interest in promoting Taiwanese identity as a legitimate national identity; in fact, it were able to suppress it it would have done so long ago. So the bottomline: this article needs to mention more about the changing dynamics of the Taiwanese presidency with respect to notions of Taiwanese identity (including how views on it have changed since 1949). Also, a separate article on 'President of Taiwan (since 1987)' should probably be created. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.145.175 ( talk) 11:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be better to merge this page with President of the Republic of China and create a section "Succession."-- Jerrch 00:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree K.murphy ( talk) 15:40, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
This statement is in error. The official position of the government of the ROC is still that Taiwan and the mainland are a single country, with the ROC as the rightful government of both territories. This is enshrined in the ROC constitution and has never been changed.
It is certainly true that most Taiwanese, including many members of the government (and the previous two presidents), view Taiwan as a de facto sovereign nation. But that is different from claiming the view as the ROC government's official position.
Semantically, I also think it's better to say that the ROC does not recognize the legitimacy (rather than the existence) of the PRC.
EDIT: In re-reading my comments it occurs to me I have oversimplified the issues involved and made a couple of dubious statements myself. Simply asserting that the ROC == Taiwan glosses over a whole plethora of issues, viewpoints and territorial questions.
The question comes down to territory. Though pretty much everyone in Taiwan agrees that the ROC is the legitimate government of a sovereign state, when it comes to drawing the national boundaries of that state, the opinions lie (pardon the pun) quite literally all over the map.
Though the ROC constitution makes general reference to the territories that were under ROC control at the time of its ratification, it never explicitly defines what those territories were. While (in addition to the mainland and Mongolia) they did include the islands of Kinmen and Matsu, significantly, they did not include the main island of Taiwan, which had been Japanese territory since 1895. (Chiang Kai Shek later repudiated the Treaty of Shimoneseki; at the time of ratification, however, Japanese sovereignty was not disputed.)
Since 1945 the ROC (and, ironically, the PRC) has used various combinations of the retrocession argument and repudiation of Shimoneseki to claim sovereignty over the island of Taiwan, though the ROC constitution has never been amended to include it (work was begun to do so, but the National Assembly, the agency responsible for such things, was abolished before work was completed).
Though nearly all Taiwanese (and, obviously the government itself) agree that the ROC is a sovereign state, there are at least three different understandings of what that encompasses (and herein lies the great gulf between the reunification and the independence forces in Taiwan).
Many reunificationists (mostly older Taiwanese, whose numbers are now dwindling) hold that ROC territory still includes the mainland, now (either since retrocession in 1945 or ab initio, depending on one's views of Shimoneseki) together with Taiwan. For these folks, the Republic of China is a sovereign, independent state whose territory includes the mainland. They would dispute that Taiwan is a sovereign state, as Taiwan is but a part of the larger state.
A broad swathe of Taiwanese, encompassing both reunificationists and pro-independence supporters, hold that since 1949 ROC territory has been (or should be) reduced to the territories now under its control. They are ready and willing to acknowledge PRC sovereignty over the mainland, but hold to ROC sovereignty over its current holdings. Since for this group ROC and Taiwan are co-extensive, they would hold that "the ROC is sovereign and independent" is equivalent to "Taiwan is sovereign and independent".
Of course the reunificationists in this group wish to see both sides reunified, though they differ on what the governement of the reunified territory should be. The independence supporters, OTOH, wish to see Taiwan continue as an idependent state; they argue over whether the ROC should be abolished in favor of a new government.
The official position of the government of Taiwan is, of course, that the ROC is currently a sovereign and independent state, but as far as I know there is no official government position on whether its territories include the mainland (and Mongolia) or are limited to its current holdings.
CNJECulver ( talk) 17:28, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Hello. I invite you to join a centralized discussion about naming issues related to China and Taiwan. Szqecs ( talk) 14:24, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
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This article, especially the lead emphasizes the pre-1949 history too much and gives insufficient weight to the current ROC on Taiwan, so I propose to make these changes:
1. Change the lead into:
The President of Taiwan, officially the President of the Republic of China, is the head of state of Taiwan. Since 1996, the President is directly elected by plurality voting to a four-year term, with at most one re-election. The incumbent, Tsai Ing-Wen, succeeded Ma Ying-jeou on 20 May 2016 as the first female president in the nation's history. Originally established in Nanking in 1912, the Republic of China and it's president relocated to Taiwan in 1949 after losing the Chinese civil war.
2. Change the position of the History section to appear before Timeline of Presidents
3. Add the date and name of the first directly elected president in the infobox in "Formation" and "First Holder" -- Uaat ( talk) 03:44, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
I am changing the first sentence per MOS:LEADALT: When the title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph.
If @ TaerkastUA: or @ CaradhrasAiguo: thinks the official name should come before the alternative name, you could swap that and I am happy to discuss which should come first, but please don't revert to the version that removes the alternative name, which violates MOS:LEADALT. -- Uaat ( talk) 04:26, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo: "and most editors noted that there is room for case-by-case exceptions." [2] 华 总 and 统 are not yet shown to be part of the native language used between the people in this nation-state; displaying them prominently on this English language page leaves the impression that this is the case-- only directly relevant foreign language material needs to be included here Geographyinitiative ( talk) 23:47, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 20:02, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
President of the Republic of China → President of Taiwan – and spin out content before 1949 to Head of state of the Republic of China (1912-49). Do similar for other government positions, such as the Vice President of the Republic of China, Premier of the Republic of China.
The proposal complies with the 5 naming WP:CRITERIAs of article titles.
Recognizability: Taiwan is the most recognizable name of the country. Republic of China is not recognizable and often confused with the People's Republic of China.
Naturalness: President of Taiwan is the most commonly used name for the current position in reliable sources.'President of Taiwan' 43000 Results. [3]. 'President of the Republic of China' [4] only 18100 Results, while many of those actually uses the form 'President of the Republic of China (Taiwan)' or is about Sun yet-sen.
Precision:The current title is imprecise. Between 1925 to 1948, the head of state was not called the President. It was 'Chairman of the Nationalist Government'.
Conciseness:President of the Taiwan is shorter.
Consistency:The proposal is consistent with the articles Taiwan and Republic of China (1912-49). Also consistent with president articles of other countries, which use the common name of the country instead of the full title. Dave3753 ( talk) 23:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Should we move this page to President of Taiwan, and spin out content before 1949 to a new article? Opening a RFC for the requested move above to attract more attention. Uaat ( talk) 07:15, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus ( non-admin closure) Red Slash 04:13, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
President of the Republic of China → President of Taiwan – Per the two discussions above Uaat ( talk) 16:08, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
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Before the 1970s and even after now, the ROC President was also called the "President of China" when the ROC was the internationally recognized government of China. Despite the PRC is now recognized as the official "China", the name is also used as well as evidenced in the May 9, 1995 Congressional Record by the United States Congress which refers to Lee Teng-hui as the "President of China on Taiwan". Even Eswatini also refers to the ROC President as the "President of China" as well ( [9]). Silence of Lambs ( talk) 22:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | It has been proposed in this section that multiple pages be
renamed and moved. A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{
subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{
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– WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as with the recent move of the President of the People's Republic of China to the President of China. However, now with the ROC largely lost legitimacy to claim as the legitimate government of the Chinese state, let's move some of the pre-1949 historical context of these articles to the (office post) of China and let these articles focus on the history of the heads of state and government on Taiwan during Qing, Japanese colonial rule and the ROC since 1945. Silence of Lambs ( talk) 22:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
President of the Republic of China article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
the Yuan Shikai and Warlord gov't (1913 - 1928) isn't recognized by the current Taiwanese gov't. It was a different polical organization from the current ROC. So should its presidents be part of this list? -- voidvector
well maybe we're not talking about only the current Taiwanese government, but rather the ROC regime?
The ROC-KMT doesnt recognize the warlord government but it was internationally recognized as the legitimate ROC government. On the other hand, no foreign nation recognized the ROC-KMT until they took Beijing in 1928.-- Countakeshi 01:07, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
There is some recent (June 2004) disussion at Talk:Chiang_Kai-shek#Presidential_navigation_bar about redoing the list of "presidents" that is relevant here. -- Jia ng 23:37, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Somebody must be claiming the sovereignty of whole China before and during WWII. Also the Japan-backed governments in Manchuria and Northern China claimed part of China.
The Potsdam Declaration uses President of the National Government of the Republic of China, so it appears to be the official translation. I'm going to update the article accordingly. -- Countakeshi ( talk) 01:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
(Deleted what essentially amounted to little more than opinions.)
I have make this term bold because it is another name for president of ROC. However, someone keeps changing it back.-- Jerrypp772000 23:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
No it is not a term for the President of the Republic of China. He is the President of the Republic of China, not Taiwan. There is no need to make it bold. - Nationalist 00:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Please do not move this page without consensus and do not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point.-- Jiang 05:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The article should be moved to "President of Taiwan", the current title of the article can be confused with the President of (the People's Republic of) China.-- Mechanical Keyboarder 08:00, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
-- Damifb 20:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed the statement "[The usage] President of Taiwan ... is not prevalent in Taiwan itself", but I forgot to put the link to the table in the summary. Please see Talk:Premier of the Republic of China#Tables. — Sebastian 09:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Removed the statement about that premier's powers were reduced out of fear that the DPP would control the legislature. I don't recall this as a major reason for the constitutional changes and it doesn't make sense because by centralizing power with the President, the change made it easier for the DPP to take popwer.
Roadrunner ( talk) 21:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Uh oh. The KMT have taken over the Taiwanese government again. These grubby nationalists will stop at nothing to portray Taiwanese people, society, culture, politics etc etc as somehow connected to Chinese people, society, culture, politics etc etc. I am afraid that this development will only reinforce the perception that Taiwan is somehow a break-away or 'rebellious' state. As everyone knows, the KMT has no real interest in promoting Taiwanese identity as a legitimate national identity; in fact, it were able to suppress it it would have done so long ago. So the bottomline: this article needs to mention more about the changing dynamics of the Taiwanese presidency with respect to notions of Taiwanese identity (including how views on it have changed since 1949). Also, a separate article on 'President of Taiwan (since 1987)' should probably be created. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.145.175 ( talk) 11:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be better to merge this page with President of the Republic of China and create a section "Succession."-- Jerrch 00:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree K.murphy ( talk) 15:40, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
This statement is in error. The official position of the government of the ROC is still that Taiwan and the mainland are a single country, with the ROC as the rightful government of both territories. This is enshrined in the ROC constitution and has never been changed.
It is certainly true that most Taiwanese, including many members of the government (and the previous two presidents), view Taiwan as a de facto sovereign nation. But that is different from claiming the view as the ROC government's official position.
Semantically, I also think it's better to say that the ROC does not recognize the legitimacy (rather than the existence) of the PRC.
EDIT: In re-reading my comments it occurs to me I have oversimplified the issues involved and made a couple of dubious statements myself. Simply asserting that the ROC == Taiwan glosses over a whole plethora of issues, viewpoints and territorial questions.
The question comes down to territory. Though pretty much everyone in Taiwan agrees that the ROC is the legitimate government of a sovereign state, when it comes to drawing the national boundaries of that state, the opinions lie (pardon the pun) quite literally all over the map.
Though the ROC constitution makes general reference to the territories that were under ROC control at the time of its ratification, it never explicitly defines what those territories were. While (in addition to the mainland and Mongolia) they did include the islands of Kinmen and Matsu, significantly, they did not include the main island of Taiwan, which had been Japanese territory since 1895. (Chiang Kai Shek later repudiated the Treaty of Shimoneseki; at the time of ratification, however, Japanese sovereignty was not disputed.)
Since 1945 the ROC (and, ironically, the PRC) has used various combinations of the retrocession argument and repudiation of Shimoneseki to claim sovereignty over the island of Taiwan, though the ROC constitution has never been amended to include it (work was begun to do so, but the National Assembly, the agency responsible for such things, was abolished before work was completed).
Though nearly all Taiwanese (and, obviously the government itself) agree that the ROC is a sovereign state, there are at least three different understandings of what that encompasses (and herein lies the great gulf between the reunification and the independence forces in Taiwan).
Many reunificationists (mostly older Taiwanese, whose numbers are now dwindling) hold that ROC territory still includes the mainland, now (either since retrocession in 1945 or ab initio, depending on one's views of Shimoneseki) together with Taiwan. For these folks, the Republic of China is a sovereign, independent state whose territory includes the mainland. They would dispute that Taiwan is a sovereign state, as Taiwan is but a part of the larger state.
A broad swathe of Taiwanese, encompassing both reunificationists and pro-independence supporters, hold that since 1949 ROC territory has been (or should be) reduced to the territories now under its control. They are ready and willing to acknowledge PRC sovereignty over the mainland, but hold to ROC sovereignty over its current holdings. Since for this group ROC and Taiwan are co-extensive, they would hold that "the ROC is sovereign and independent" is equivalent to "Taiwan is sovereign and independent".
Of course the reunificationists in this group wish to see both sides reunified, though they differ on what the governement of the reunified territory should be. The independence supporters, OTOH, wish to see Taiwan continue as an idependent state; they argue over whether the ROC should be abolished in favor of a new government.
The official position of the government of Taiwan is, of course, that the ROC is currently a sovereign and independent state, but as far as I know there is no official government position on whether its territories include the mainland (and Mongolia) or are limited to its current holdings.
CNJECulver ( talk) 17:28, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Hello. I invite you to join a centralized discussion about naming issues related to China and Taiwan. Szqecs ( talk) 14:24, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on President of the Republic of China. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This article, especially the lead emphasizes the pre-1949 history too much and gives insufficient weight to the current ROC on Taiwan, so I propose to make these changes:
1. Change the lead into:
The President of Taiwan, officially the President of the Republic of China, is the head of state of Taiwan. Since 1996, the President is directly elected by plurality voting to a four-year term, with at most one re-election. The incumbent, Tsai Ing-Wen, succeeded Ma Ying-jeou on 20 May 2016 as the first female president in the nation's history. Originally established in Nanking in 1912, the Republic of China and it's president relocated to Taiwan in 1949 after losing the Chinese civil war.
2. Change the position of the History section to appear before Timeline of Presidents
3. Add the date and name of the first directly elected president in the infobox in "Formation" and "First Holder" -- Uaat ( talk) 03:44, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
I am changing the first sentence per MOS:LEADALT: When the title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph.
If @ TaerkastUA: or @ CaradhrasAiguo: thinks the official name should come before the alternative name, you could swap that and I am happy to discuss which should come first, but please don't revert to the version that removes the alternative name, which violates MOS:LEADALT. -- Uaat ( talk) 04:26, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo: "and most editors noted that there is room for case-by-case exceptions." [2] 华 总 and 统 are not yet shown to be part of the native language used between the people in this nation-state; displaying them prominently on this English language page leaves the impression that this is the case-- only directly relevant foreign language material needs to be included here Geographyinitiative ( talk) 23:47, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 20:02, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
President of the Republic of China → President of Taiwan – and spin out content before 1949 to Head of state of the Republic of China (1912-49). Do similar for other government positions, such as the Vice President of the Republic of China, Premier of the Republic of China.
The proposal complies with the 5 naming WP:CRITERIAs of article titles.
Recognizability: Taiwan is the most recognizable name of the country. Republic of China is not recognizable and often confused with the People's Republic of China.
Naturalness: President of Taiwan is the most commonly used name for the current position in reliable sources.'President of Taiwan' 43000 Results. [3]. 'President of the Republic of China' [4] only 18100 Results, while many of those actually uses the form 'President of the Republic of China (Taiwan)' or is about Sun yet-sen.
Precision:The current title is imprecise. Between 1925 to 1948, the head of state was not called the President. It was 'Chairman of the Nationalist Government'.
Conciseness:President of the Taiwan is shorter.
Consistency:The proposal is consistent with the articles Taiwan and Republic of China (1912-49). Also consistent with president articles of other countries, which use the common name of the country instead of the full title. Dave3753 ( talk) 23:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Should we move this page to President of Taiwan, and spin out content before 1949 to a new article? Opening a RFC for the requested move above to attract more attention. Uaat ( talk) 07:15, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus ( non-admin closure) Red Slash 04:13, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
President of the Republic of China → President of Taiwan – Per the two discussions above Uaat ( talk) 16:08, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:26, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 04:54, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:55, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
Before the 1970s and even after now, the ROC President was also called the "President of China" when the ROC was the internationally recognized government of China. Despite the PRC is now recognized as the official "China", the name is also used as well as evidenced in the May 9, 1995 Congressional Record by the United States Congress which refers to Lee Teng-hui as the "President of China on Taiwan". Even Eswatini also refers to the ROC President as the "President of China" as well ( [9]). Silence of Lambs ( talk) 22:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | It has been proposed in this section that multiple pages be
renamed and moved. A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{
subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{
requested move/dated}} directly. |
– WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as with the recent move of the President of the People's Republic of China to the President of China. However, now with the ROC largely lost legitimacy to claim as the legitimate government of the Chinese state, let's move some of the pre-1949 historical context of these articles to the (office post) of China and let these articles focus on the history of the heads of state and government on Taiwan during Qing, Japanese colonial rule and the ROC since 1945. Silence of Lambs ( talk) 22:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)