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Changed "The original crude language from which Sanskrit was derived could be Prakrit" to "Some have suggested that the original crude language from which Sanskrit was derived could be Prakrit, but this contradicts the findings of comparative linguistics, which are that Sanskrit is closer to earlier Indo-European linguistic forms than Prakrits are". -- AnonMoos 06:58, 29 July 2004
Sorry that my edit apparently messed up the formatting -- I was using an older version of Netscape which was apparently not fully compatible with the editing form -- AnonMoos 06:46, 30 July 2004
I wish you wiki-people would read a book before they write these definitions.
It is quite false to define a Prakrit as a vernacular: these were artificial, poetic and literary languages that were *never* anyone's "mother tongue". It is true that Sanskrit grammarians pour scorn on Prakrits --but that is because Prakrits are not "The language of the gods", but are considered secular and imperfect by contrast to the language of the Vedas (the lattering being supposed to be of divine origin). Naturally, this was disputed by members of rival religions --e.g., Jain Prakrit is certainly considered sacred by the Jains.
Various prakrits were associated with various ruling dynasties, each of which respectively patronized the given prakrit as a literary language, and for certainly highly ritualized forms of communication from the state --e.g., the inscriptions of Ashoka (which are in Prakrit, by the way).
The word prakrt or prakrit never means vulgar. Further defining "prakrit" as vulgar creates unnecessary negative and demeaning connotations. Abhijna
It wiill be great if a Ardhamagadhi dictionary can be setup.
The statement is very offending - Brahmin Orthodoxy - who these people are? do they really have origion? do they really maintain family history? do they ever respect the nation? do they ever have love for Dharma? what dharma principles they are following or ever followed? There are no brahmins neither their legitimates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.80.57.2 ( talk) 11:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
prakrit language is ancient. In acient time prakrit language was talking language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.55.46 ( talk) 08:10, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
|^^^ What is the definite proof of this? Aren't the earliest Indo-Iranian inscriptions written in India all Prakrits?| CormanoSanchez ( talk) 07:46, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Dear editors of this article. I am no expert in this subject and hence can't do the changes myself, and that is why am posting this message (because I often hear people saying- if you dont find it ok, just do it yourself rather than passing comments!). Well, my concern is about the lead. The lead doesn't say that it is a broad family of the Indic languages untill you read till the third line (although the same sentence). Can the lead be changed a bit for ease of the reader? Thanks Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 12:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
this article needs more references as notes...-- Esteban Barahona ( talk) 03:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, as a reader I find the opening paragraph could be more clear to what Prakrit is. The sentences throughout the article are also a little long and convoluted. Breaking some of the longer sentences into two would be helpful. Secondly, how do these vernaculars differ linguistically? There are articles linked to each one but a brief mention would be good. Rofflebuster ( talk) 14:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
The opening sentences are wordy and confusing. Possibly split the two interpretations up, and also give a general definition. I also found the last paragraph of forms to be vague, and lacking details. Including more details of how each Prakrit is used (with references!) would be useful, and interesting. (The existing examples are interesting already!) Also explanations of the differences between Prakrits could add to this article. Scatter89 ( talk) 02:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
128.253.110.123 is me, for the record ...
X3nodox (
talk)
20:54, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Prakrit did not derive from "Classical Sanskrit", a form that was not formed until 1st century, and there are may questions regarding PRakrits relation to what is now called Vedic Sanskrit, they probably both share a parent language, the Prakrit can also be compared to slang, street or common talk with all sorts of allowable simplifications, while the Sanskrit was highly ARYA-sticratic —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.215.42 ( talk) 12:18, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
If Prakrits are vernaculars as opposed to "classical" Sanskrit, are there parallels with vernaculars around classical Latin? The contemporary Indic vernaculars I'm most familiar with -- Hindi and Nepali -- have substituted prepositions for declensions. The same holds for most Romance languages, except Romanian apparently retains declension to some extent. LADave ( talk) 21:45, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The first paragraph says "But there are scholars who believe that Prakrit is older than Sanskrit, and it is on the base of Prakrit (original) that the Sanskrit (refined) language was made. This also is in tune with the Jain religion, where the first Tirthankar is Adinath himself." It is not at all clear what the relation of the second sentence to the first is. Could someone in the know clarify this please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sundaryourfriend ( talk • contribs) 22:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for criticism, but nothing in the article talks of the language, all material is about and around the language. Neither morphology, nor phonology, nor typology are even mentioned. Anybody knows anything about the language to add meat to the bluff? Barefact ( talk) 20:30, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
1. When were the Prakrit languages spoken?
2. If Sanskrit was never written down until "way after the Prakrits" (as the Sanskrit article claims), then what alphabet were the Vedas written in?
Thanks! BigSteve ( talk) 21:26, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Why is "Prakrit" capitalized in this article? Isn't it a common noun akin to "dialect" or "variety"? Largoplazo ( talk) 02:13, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
This is to the IP user 223.186.108.17 who restored their addition to the infobox, asserting Vedic Sanskrit to be the ancestor of the Prakrits. The source says If in 'Sanskrit' we include the Vedic language and all dialects of the Old Indian period, then it is true to say that all the Prakrits are derived from Sanskrit. If on the other hand 'Sanskrit' is used more strictly of the Panini-Patanjali language or 'Classical Sanskrit,' then it is untrue to say that any Prakrit is derived from Sanskrit, except that Sauraseni, the Midland Prakrit, is derived from the Old Indian dialect of the Madhyadesa on which Classical Sanskrit was mainly based.
I had removed this because the quote is a conditional, not a firm statement, but you restored it.
You claim the quote supports the ancestry of Vedic Sanskrit over all the Prakrits. The quote draws conclusions about the derivation of the Prakrits from Sanskrit for two specific interpretations of "Sanskrit". Those interpretations are:
Neither of these interpretations is "Vedic Sanskrit". Further, if the author of the quote understood Vedic Sanskrit to be the ancestor of all the Prakrits, then the author would have written "Vedic language" instead of "Vedic language and all the dialects of the Old Indian period", correct? The implication is that "and all the dialects of the Old Indian period" is necessary for the statement to be true; without those words, it isn't. Thus, the quotation contradicts your understanding of the ancestry of the Prakrits. Largoplazo ( talk) 15:21, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
This sort of POV pushing where they claim Vedic Sanskrit is ancestor of Prakrit with dubious references is the work of Hindu nationalists. Even I can find scholarly articles that suggest the opposite to what they claim. "It follows that Vedic and Prakrit are sister dialects instead. " of being related as mother to daughter." Article source: https://archive.org/stream/jstor-3087594/3087594_djvu.txt Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 09:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
I agree . Unfortunately the user with his IP address visible does not want to accept reality. Their political groups have started to rewrite history ,claiming that the oldest Indian civilization is a Hindu civilization called the Saraswati Civilization which does not even exist ! Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 06:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
And you should see the early forms section in the Hindi language article in Wikipedia where they claim that Hindi is a Prakrit that descended from Classical Sanskrit ! Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 06:04, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
I do not think the sources mentioning Sanskrit as origin of Indo-Aryan languages were written by "Hindu nationalists" since both were written by non-Indians. I don't think William Bright and Alfred C Woolner are Hindu nationalists. In the book by William Bright he says that he did two years of field work about Indian languages in the introduction.
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=TVa1BwAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&redir_esc=y
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=IwE16UFBfdEC&pg=PA3&lpg=PP1&focus=viewport
Also see the early forms section in the articles of Romance languages like French, Spanish, Italian where they have mentioned both Old Latin and Classical Latin as early forms and in the article of Vulgar Latin where the old form is mentioned as Old Latin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Relic1234 ( talk • contribs) 08:55, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
@AnonMoos Your argument is incorrect. You are comparing Vedic Sanskrit with Classical Latin while you should have compared with Old Latin. Classical Latin may not be direct linguistic ancestor of Romance languages but Old Latin is the real ancestor. Similarly Vedic Sanskrit is the ancestor of Indo-Aryan languages. Relic1234 ( talk) 11:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
As the previous editors have said. Your previous references do not give concrete proof that 'Vedic Sanskrit is ancestor of all Prakrits' , it is simply a conditional statement. The scholars like Woolner are certainly not Hindu nationalists but the ones who twist his words for POV pushing certainly are. Please read your own references carefully. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 13:50, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
It seems you are a Buddhist nationalist who does not like the fact of Vedic Sanskrit being ancestor of Prakrits and who is repeatedly pushing to remove mention of Vedic Sanskrit or Sanskrit from Prakrit Wikipedia article. Relic1234 ( talk) 14:01, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Vedic Sanskrit is the codified version of an older language used for the Vedas, much like Classical Latin is to old Latin. So your previous analogy is incorrect. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 14:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Classical Sanskrit is codified version of Sanskrit language just like Classical Latin is for Old Latin. The dialects used in the Vedas were not uniform.
Let me make this clear to you. Just as another editor had pointed out, there is NO mention of the term 'Vedic Sanskrit' in the interpretations made by the authors from whom you've quoted. Now you realise why your edit is wrong ? Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 14:08, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
The sources mention Sanskrit as early form of Prakrit. Then change the early form to Sanskrit.
And accusing me of being a Buddhist nationalist will not validate your own position. And I am not the first editor to have removed your erroneous edit. I have never explicitly accused anyone , including you of being a nationalist. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 14:11, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Would you folks please use indentation so we can see who is responding to what? Please insert the appropriate number of colons in front of your previous comments so that we can all sort the discussion out. Normally I would to that for you but I already can't tell what's going on. Largoplazo ( talk) 15:09, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
One user (I think--a newly registered user who appears to have picked up where an IP user left off) has listed "Vedic Sanskrit" in the infobox as an early form of the prakrits. Question: Should the infobox present "Vedic language" or "Vedic Sanskrit" as the "early form" or as an ancestor of the prakrits? (I think it's fair for me to specify: not "some prakrits" or "any prakrits" but "the prakrits" as a whole, the subject of the article.) Largoplazo ( talk) 15:23, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
P.S. I'm not at all sure I understand the infobox parameters involved, but if the only choices are saying that Vedic Sanskrit is an "early form" of Prakrits and completely ignoring Vedic Sanskrit, then I would say include it. The technical linguistic issues mainly caution against claiming that Vedic Sanskrit is the one sole direct ancestor of Prakrits, and "early form" seems to be interpreted more loosely (it certainly is when Classical Latin is listed as an "early form" of modern French)... AnonMoos ( talk) 03:09, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Hello, I've been asked for a comment on this topic on my talkpage. Unfortunately my knowledge en Sanskrit and Prakrits is far too shallow to help resolve the issue on what authoritative sources suggest. On a broad level, I agree with what AnonMoos seems to suggest, that is the article should not give the impression of unconsted fact about a topic which is subject of discussions among those active on its treatment. I suggest to find sources that suggest the most broadly stated points of view on the topic and link them to an idoine assertion. -- Psychoslave ( talk) 10:02, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
Please refer to the Wikipedia article that shows list of languages by 'first written accounts.' It lists Prakrit as having preceded the inception of Sanskri by over 200 years. Moreover Prakrit means source , ironically in the Sanskrit language, while the latter means refined. From this we can surmise that Sanskrit, be it Vedic or classiical cannot be the 'direct' ancestor of Prakrit. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 16:33, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
You do realise that those who spoke Prakrit were also mostly illiterate. And you do realise that those who spoke the language also only started to write them much later on ? Which means by your same logic , Prakrit is still older than Sanskrit since people who spoke them were once illiterate, and writing systems for them were developed much later on from Aramaic scripts. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:06, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Here are some 'modern linguistic findings' that one particular person finds it hard to accept:"It follows that Vedic and Prakrit are sister dialects instead of being related as mother to daughter". Source: https://archive.org/stream/jstor-3087594/3087594_djvu.txt Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:08, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
And what makes you think that Buddhists did not want to use Sanskrit ? The Mahayana and Vajrayana sect use many Sanskrit terms. The 'first' Sanskrit poet was a Buddhist, Ashvaghosa. And there was no Hinduism at that time. The term Hindu was given by Islamic Invaders to any non Muslim during their conquest of Sindh in the AD era. Not BC era. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
And didn't buddhists have an oral tradition as well ? They only started to write down the Buddhist doctrine several if not hundreds of years after Buddha's death. Even during the schism, many Buddhist commentaries were actually written in Sanskrit ! Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:30, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Since , by Varna, it is the Brahmins who are charged with preserving Brahmanical doctrine and knowledge and were the first to be given a formal education in Brahmanical society, weren't they the first ones to become literate in India ? And yet somehow the commoners started using writing systems before the Brahmans did ? Don't you find that odd ? Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:33, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
The status of Vedic being the 'ancestor of all Prakrits' is disputed among scholars with some supporting it(with conditional statements )and some against it. Therefore making one sided edits will only mislead others. Something that 'Relic1234' doesn't comprehend. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
There is no mention of Sanskrit in the Vedas . The Vedic language was called Chandas in both Brahmanical (Ashtadhyayi) and Buddhist texts(Pali Canon) Even Panini who synthesised Sanskrit , referred to the Vedic language as Chandas, never as vedic sanskrit. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:39, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
And I agree that vedic is more archaic than other Indo aryan languages
But so are many prakrits that could have possibly died out . And one language being more archaic does make it the direct ancestor of others by default. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:43, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Italian is more archaic than french since it better preserves old latin's vocabulary , but does that make Italian the ancestor of French ? Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
In my second last paragraph, I meant 'doesn't make it', not does. I apologise for the mistake. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:47, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Please understand that Buddhists had an oral tradition As well thst involved passing down the Buddhist doctrine in the Prakritic languages and they only started to write down the teachings(first in Pali, a Prakrit , and then in Sanskrit) hundreds of years after the Buddha's death (death date: 500-400 BCE) , around 1st century BCE. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 08:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Honestly I don't get that'earlier form' in the romance languages section as well . Still the status of Vedic Sanskrit (term was never used by it's speakers,native or otherwise) being the ancestor or even the 'earlier form' of Prakrits' is disputed. One of the links I gave is an example of that. So making one sided edits will only mislead readers. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 12:29, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
"The relationship between Vedic Sanskrit and Prakrits is very similar to the relationship between Classical Latin and the Romance languages " The relationship is similar but undisputably not the same. It is interesting to note that Latin is attested by written works at a much earlier date than all the other Romance languages while it is the 'exact opposite' for Prakrit and Sanskrit. In other words Latin preceded the other Romance languages in 'both spoken and written' forms while the same cannot be said for sanskrit and prakrit. Hence the analogy is false. Also there was no mention of the word Sanskrit until the 1st century BC. The language of the Vedas was called Chandas. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 12:35, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
And regardless of the reasons that Brahmins had in not writing the Vedic language down, there is no irrefutable evidence that the language written in the Vedas is the faithful reproduction of the language that was spoken much earlier. Just as Panini synthesised Sanskrit from Vedic , Vedic itself could be a modified form of an earlier language that 'could' have been the ancestor of all Prakrits'. There are Buddhists who claim Pali is Magadhi Prakrit and is the ancestor of all eastern prakrits but that is misleading because of grammatical differences between the two languages , especially case system which suggests the Buddhist monks modified and combined many Prakrits' to write down Buddhist doctrine.
Just saying that Vedic could be an earlier form of all prakrits is as misleading as saying Avestan(Indo Iranian) is the earlier form of Vedic , just because it is more archaic . It does not help the fact that Sanskrit and vedic are written at a much later time than the Prakrits' . We will never know the 'exact' ancestor of all Prakrits' , just as we don't know the exact ancestor of all Indo European languages. We just have an approximation called PIE. And I am aware that vedic is one of the languages that is used as it's base but that's because there was no other Indo Aryan language that was preserved as well as Vedic and could have been much older. That is why claiming Vedic as the 'earlier form' of Prakrit is misleading. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 13:09, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Well regardless of whether writing is important or not, it can atleast be another layer of proof to show that one language precedes another. Moreover I have found another reference on the wiki article's page itself that refutes 'Relic1234's claims: [7] Burde, Jayant (2004). Rituals, Mantras, and Science: An Integral Perspective. Motilal Banarsidass Publishe. p. 3. ISBN 978-81-208-2053-1. The Aryans spoke an Indo-European language ""sometimes"" called the ""Vedic"" language from which have descended Sanskrit and other Indic languages ... ""Prakrit was a group of variants which developed ""alongside"" Sanskrit."" This article mentions Vedic. So what exactly is this Vedic Sanskrit ? You can see here that the scholars are still trying to decide whether the common ancestor of all Prakrits' and Sanskrit, should be called Vedic or some other language. That is why making one sided edits on a disputed fact will only mislead others. You can see that the scholars support the notion that Prakrit is a language that developed alongside or parallely to sanskrit . I have given another reference that supports this notion,which you will find it being mentioned many times in the talk page. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:55, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
(Outdent since this is a new section break)
Later on (in plays and such) they became codified literary languages, but when the Asoka inscriptions were being composed, and when the Buddhists were first choosing Pali, they were probably reasonably close to regional colloquial vernaculars (certainly far more so than Sanskrit was). Sorry if I oversimplified a little, but the contrast between the status of Sanskrit and Prakrit at that time is still clear... AnonMoos ( talk) 00:22, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
No one is right or wrong here. The only point I want to make is making one sided edits using a fact that is much disputed by scholars will only serve to mislead readers instead of enlightening them. That is all. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 07:16, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
We can all post scholarly references that support our own point of view as we have all done so on this talk page, but that won't resolve the impasse will it ? So that is why it is best not to make edits that are built on disputed facts . Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 07:24, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't object . I support it. Leave Vedic out. The early forms in the English language wiki article is accurate though. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 10:21, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
@AnonMoos Indulging in subtle Ad Hominem are we ? Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 11:24, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
It has already been established in the talk section(not just in this article) that Vedic Sanskrit is not an ancestor of Prakrit and yet there is an image of a language tree in the article that still shows the same misconception. Hope someone will rectify it.
Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 08:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Never mind , fixed it. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 08:50, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
but saying that 'Prakrits' are as archaic as Vedic Sanskrit, is laughable Hahahaha.. cuz no Prakrits existed at the time of Vedic period and it's already clear, people spoke The Vedic Language and not venicular corrupt speech languages like 'prakrits', Prakrits came to existence after 700BCE.. Arkam Knight ( talk) 14:38, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
There are tracea of Prakrit in the Rig Veda, moreover there is not attestation date for rigvedic and prakrit preserves certain features that have been lost even in Rigvedic/Vedic as is written in : https://www.jstor.org/stable/3087594
This is also cited as wiki reference. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 07:53, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
@AnonMoos, I'd like to see the reference where your claim is mentioned of Prakrit being derived from some unattended Sanskrit even though the term sanskrit was first used by Panini after he synthesized the language from Vedic, he himself called the vedic language as Chandas, there was no sanskrit before Panini. Besides this wiki language tree created by multiple authors shows that the Prakrits and Vedic are sister dialects instead of having the relationship of mother and daughter. Same is cited in a wiki reference. If you have trouble finding that reference please let me know. Language tree: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IndoEuropeanTree.svg Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 08:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
The article currently says that Prākṛta literally means "natural". This is a common enough modern misinterpretation (not to be found in any ancient or medieval source and goes against the etymology of the name "prākṛta"), it also goes directly against the native definitions of the word Prākṛta (normally anglicized as Prakrit).
The word Prākṛta is a nominal derivative (called taddhita) i.e. a noun showing relationship to another noun, "Prakṛti". In other words, "Prākṛta" is something that is derived from "Prakṛti" (original).
Both sanskrit and prakrit grammarians (many of who wrote grammars of both sanskrit and prakrit) explain that Sanskrit is the Prakṛti (original language from which the prakrits are derived - for citations from these native ancient and medieval scholars see the etymology section.
Most of the native Prākṛta (prakrit) grammars take Sanskrit as the starting point and indicate the departures of each Prakrit therefrom. On the other hand, every singly native Sanskrit grammatical text treats Sanskrit as a pre-existing language and makes no attempt to derive-from or associate it with any prakrit.
Therefore while some modern scholars say Prakrit (i.e. prākṛta) means "natural" - that is an incorrect statement. Prākṛta etymologically means "originating from the natural/source (language)", and that original/natural language has been identified by most pre-modern native scholars as Sanskrit.
The point of terming one group as Prākṛta and its source as Prakṛti is to distinguish them from each other - so that the relations between the natural/original language and the languages derived from the natural/original language are understood properly.
This explanation of the premodern scholars broadly in line with mainstream modern philological research which also considers Sanskrit (including the dialects of Vedic Sanskrit) as Old-Indic, and Prakrits and other similar forms as direct descendants of Old-Indic (which are therefore termed Middle-Indic). Therefore I have marked the statement Prākṛta literally means "natural" as dubious, but it is not just dubious, it is diametrically the opposite of the correct meaning. However I didnt remove the statement because while it's a misunderstanding, the misunderstanding is expressed by some modern scholars in their works - so a two-sided view is required about why that is wrong. Srkris ( talk) 12:07, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
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Changed "The original crude language from which Sanskrit was derived could be Prakrit" to "Some have suggested that the original crude language from which Sanskrit was derived could be Prakrit, but this contradicts the findings of comparative linguistics, which are that Sanskrit is closer to earlier Indo-European linguistic forms than Prakrits are". -- AnonMoos 06:58, 29 July 2004
Sorry that my edit apparently messed up the formatting -- I was using an older version of Netscape which was apparently not fully compatible with the editing form -- AnonMoos 06:46, 30 July 2004
I wish you wiki-people would read a book before they write these definitions.
It is quite false to define a Prakrit as a vernacular: these were artificial, poetic and literary languages that were *never* anyone's "mother tongue". It is true that Sanskrit grammarians pour scorn on Prakrits --but that is because Prakrits are not "The language of the gods", but are considered secular and imperfect by contrast to the language of the Vedas (the lattering being supposed to be of divine origin). Naturally, this was disputed by members of rival religions --e.g., Jain Prakrit is certainly considered sacred by the Jains.
Various prakrits were associated with various ruling dynasties, each of which respectively patronized the given prakrit as a literary language, and for certainly highly ritualized forms of communication from the state --e.g., the inscriptions of Ashoka (which are in Prakrit, by the way).
The word prakrt or prakrit never means vulgar. Further defining "prakrit" as vulgar creates unnecessary negative and demeaning connotations. Abhijna
It wiill be great if a Ardhamagadhi dictionary can be setup.
The statement is very offending - Brahmin Orthodoxy - who these people are? do they really have origion? do they really maintain family history? do they ever respect the nation? do they ever have love for Dharma? what dharma principles they are following or ever followed? There are no brahmins neither their legitimates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.80.57.2 ( talk) 11:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
prakrit language is ancient. In acient time prakrit language was talking language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.55.46 ( talk) 08:10, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
|^^^ What is the definite proof of this? Aren't the earliest Indo-Iranian inscriptions written in India all Prakrits?| CormanoSanchez ( talk) 07:46, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Dear editors of this article. I am no expert in this subject and hence can't do the changes myself, and that is why am posting this message (because I often hear people saying- if you dont find it ok, just do it yourself rather than passing comments!). Well, my concern is about the lead. The lead doesn't say that it is a broad family of the Indic languages untill you read till the third line (although the same sentence). Can the lead be changed a bit for ease of the reader? Thanks Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 12:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
this article needs more references as notes...-- Esteban Barahona ( talk) 03:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, as a reader I find the opening paragraph could be more clear to what Prakrit is. The sentences throughout the article are also a little long and convoluted. Breaking some of the longer sentences into two would be helpful. Secondly, how do these vernaculars differ linguistically? There are articles linked to each one but a brief mention would be good. Rofflebuster ( talk) 14:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
The opening sentences are wordy and confusing. Possibly split the two interpretations up, and also give a general definition. I also found the last paragraph of forms to be vague, and lacking details. Including more details of how each Prakrit is used (with references!) would be useful, and interesting. (The existing examples are interesting already!) Also explanations of the differences between Prakrits could add to this article. Scatter89 ( talk) 02:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
128.253.110.123 is me, for the record ...
X3nodox (
talk)
20:54, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Prakrit did not derive from "Classical Sanskrit", a form that was not formed until 1st century, and there are may questions regarding PRakrits relation to what is now called Vedic Sanskrit, they probably both share a parent language, the Prakrit can also be compared to slang, street or common talk with all sorts of allowable simplifications, while the Sanskrit was highly ARYA-sticratic —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.215.42 ( talk) 12:18, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
If Prakrits are vernaculars as opposed to "classical" Sanskrit, are there parallels with vernaculars around classical Latin? The contemporary Indic vernaculars I'm most familiar with -- Hindi and Nepali -- have substituted prepositions for declensions. The same holds for most Romance languages, except Romanian apparently retains declension to some extent. LADave ( talk) 21:45, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The first paragraph says "But there are scholars who believe that Prakrit is older than Sanskrit, and it is on the base of Prakrit (original) that the Sanskrit (refined) language was made. This also is in tune with the Jain religion, where the first Tirthankar is Adinath himself." It is not at all clear what the relation of the second sentence to the first is. Could someone in the know clarify this please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sundaryourfriend ( talk • contribs) 22:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for criticism, but nothing in the article talks of the language, all material is about and around the language. Neither morphology, nor phonology, nor typology are even mentioned. Anybody knows anything about the language to add meat to the bluff? Barefact ( talk) 20:30, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
1. When were the Prakrit languages spoken?
2. If Sanskrit was never written down until "way after the Prakrits" (as the Sanskrit article claims), then what alphabet were the Vedas written in?
Thanks! BigSteve ( talk) 21:26, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Why is "Prakrit" capitalized in this article? Isn't it a common noun akin to "dialect" or "variety"? Largoplazo ( talk) 02:13, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
This is to the IP user 223.186.108.17 who restored their addition to the infobox, asserting Vedic Sanskrit to be the ancestor of the Prakrits. The source says If in 'Sanskrit' we include the Vedic language and all dialects of the Old Indian period, then it is true to say that all the Prakrits are derived from Sanskrit. If on the other hand 'Sanskrit' is used more strictly of the Panini-Patanjali language or 'Classical Sanskrit,' then it is untrue to say that any Prakrit is derived from Sanskrit, except that Sauraseni, the Midland Prakrit, is derived from the Old Indian dialect of the Madhyadesa on which Classical Sanskrit was mainly based.
I had removed this because the quote is a conditional, not a firm statement, but you restored it.
You claim the quote supports the ancestry of Vedic Sanskrit over all the Prakrits. The quote draws conclusions about the derivation of the Prakrits from Sanskrit for two specific interpretations of "Sanskrit". Those interpretations are:
Neither of these interpretations is "Vedic Sanskrit". Further, if the author of the quote understood Vedic Sanskrit to be the ancestor of all the Prakrits, then the author would have written "Vedic language" instead of "Vedic language and all the dialects of the Old Indian period", correct? The implication is that "and all the dialects of the Old Indian period" is necessary for the statement to be true; without those words, it isn't. Thus, the quotation contradicts your understanding of the ancestry of the Prakrits. Largoplazo ( talk) 15:21, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
This sort of POV pushing where they claim Vedic Sanskrit is ancestor of Prakrit with dubious references is the work of Hindu nationalists. Even I can find scholarly articles that suggest the opposite to what they claim. "It follows that Vedic and Prakrit are sister dialects instead. " of being related as mother to daughter." Article source: https://archive.org/stream/jstor-3087594/3087594_djvu.txt Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 09:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
I agree . Unfortunately the user with his IP address visible does not want to accept reality. Their political groups have started to rewrite history ,claiming that the oldest Indian civilization is a Hindu civilization called the Saraswati Civilization which does not even exist ! Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 06:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
And you should see the early forms section in the Hindi language article in Wikipedia where they claim that Hindi is a Prakrit that descended from Classical Sanskrit ! Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 06:04, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
I do not think the sources mentioning Sanskrit as origin of Indo-Aryan languages were written by "Hindu nationalists" since both were written by non-Indians. I don't think William Bright and Alfred C Woolner are Hindu nationalists. In the book by William Bright he says that he did two years of field work about Indian languages in the introduction.
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=TVa1BwAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&redir_esc=y
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=IwE16UFBfdEC&pg=PA3&lpg=PP1&focus=viewport
Also see the early forms section in the articles of Romance languages like French, Spanish, Italian where they have mentioned both Old Latin and Classical Latin as early forms and in the article of Vulgar Latin where the old form is mentioned as Old Latin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Relic1234 ( talk • contribs) 08:55, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
@AnonMoos Your argument is incorrect. You are comparing Vedic Sanskrit with Classical Latin while you should have compared with Old Latin. Classical Latin may not be direct linguistic ancestor of Romance languages but Old Latin is the real ancestor. Similarly Vedic Sanskrit is the ancestor of Indo-Aryan languages. Relic1234 ( talk) 11:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
As the previous editors have said. Your previous references do not give concrete proof that 'Vedic Sanskrit is ancestor of all Prakrits' , it is simply a conditional statement. The scholars like Woolner are certainly not Hindu nationalists but the ones who twist his words for POV pushing certainly are. Please read your own references carefully. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 13:50, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
It seems you are a Buddhist nationalist who does not like the fact of Vedic Sanskrit being ancestor of Prakrits and who is repeatedly pushing to remove mention of Vedic Sanskrit or Sanskrit from Prakrit Wikipedia article. Relic1234 ( talk) 14:01, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Vedic Sanskrit is the codified version of an older language used for the Vedas, much like Classical Latin is to old Latin. So your previous analogy is incorrect. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 14:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Classical Sanskrit is codified version of Sanskrit language just like Classical Latin is for Old Latin. The dialects used in the Vedas were not uniform.
Let me make this clear to you. Just as another editor had pointed out, there is NO mention of the term 'Vedic Sanskrit' in the interpretations made by the authors from whom you've quoted. Now you realise why your edit is wrong ? Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 14:08, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
The sources mention Sanskrit as early form of Prakrit. Then change the early form to Sanskrit.
And accusing me of being a Buddhist nationalist will not validate your own position. And I am not the first editor to have removed your erroneous edit. I have never explicitly accused anyone , including you of being a nationalist. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 14:11, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Would you folks please use indentation so we can see who is responding to what? Please insert the appropriate number of colons in front of your previous comments so that we can all sort the discussion out. Normally I would to that for you but I already can't tell what's going on. Largoplazo ( talk) 15:09, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
One user (I think--a newly registered user who appears to have picked up where an IP user left off) has listed "Vedic Sanskrit" in the infobox as an early form of the prakrits. Question: Should the infobox present "Vedic language" or "Vedic Sanskrit" as the "early form" or as an ancestor of the prakrits? (I think it's fair for me to specify: not "some prakrits" or "any prakrits" but "the prakrits" as a whole, the subject of the article.) Largoplazo ( talk) 15:23, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
P.S. I'm not at all sure I understand the infobox parameters involved, but if the only choices are saying that Vedic Sanskrit is an "early form" of Prakrits and completely ignoring Vedic Sanskrit, then I would say include it. The technical linguistic issues mainly caution against claiming that Vedic Sanskrit is the one sole direct ancestor of Prakrits, and "early form" seems to be interpreted more loosely (it certainly is when Classical Latin is listed as an "early form" of modern French)... AnonMoos ( talk) 03:09, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Hello, I've been asked for a comment on this topic on my talkpage. Unfortunately my knowledge en Sanskrit and Prakrits is far too shallow to help resolve the issue on what authoritative sources suggest. On a broad level, I agree with what AnonMoos seems to suggest, that is the article should not give the impression of unconsted fact about a topic which is subject of discussions among those active on its treatment. I suggest to find sources that suggest the most broadly stated points of view on the topic and link them to an idoine assertion. -- Psychoslave ( talk) 10:02, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
Please refer to the Wikipedia article that shows list of languages by 'first written accounts.' It lists Prakrit as having preceded the inception of Sanskri by over 200 years. Moreover Prakrit means source , ironically in the Sanskrit language, while the latter means refined. From this we can surmise that Sanskrit, be it Vedic or classiical cannot be the 'direct' ancestor of Prakrit. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 16:33, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
You do realise that those who spoke Prakrit were also mostly illiterate. And you do realise that those who spoke the language also only started to write them much later on ? Which means by your same logic , Prakrit is still older than Sanskrit since people who spoke them were once illiterate, and writing systems for them were developed much later on from Aramaic scripts. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:06, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Here are some 'modern linguistic findings' that one particular person finds it hard to accept:"It follows that Vedic and Prakrit are sister dialects instead of being related as mother to daughter". Source: https://archive.org/stream/jstor-3087594/3087594_djvu.txt Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:08, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
And what makes you think that Buddhists did not want to use Sanskrit ? The Mahayana and Vajrayana sect use many Sanskrit terms. The 'first' Sanskrit poet was a Buddhist, Ashvaghosa. And there was no Hinduism at that time. The term Hindu was given by Islamic Invaders to any non Muslim during their conquest of Sindh in the AD era. Not BC era. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
And didn't buddhists have an oral tradition as well ? They only started to write down the Buddhist doctrine several if not hundreds of years after Buddha's death. Even during the schism, many Buddhist commentaries were actually written in Sanskrit ! Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:30, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Since , by Varna, it is the Brahmins who are charged with preserving Brahmanical doctrine and knowledge and were the first to be given a formal education in Brahmanical society, weren't they the first ones to become literate in India ? And yet somehow the commoners started using writing systems before the Brahmans did ? Don't you find that odd ? Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:33, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
The status of Vedic being the 'ancestor of all Prakrits' is disputed among scholars with some supporting it(with conditional statements )and some against it. Therefore making one sided edits will only mislead others. Something that 'Relic1234' doesn't comprehend. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
There is no mention of Sanskrit in the Vedas . The Vedic language was called Chandas in both Brahmanical (Ashtadhyayi) and Buddhist texts(Pali Canon) Even Panini who synthesised Sanskrit , referred to the Vedic language as Chandas, never as vedic sanskrit. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:39, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
And I agree that vedic is more archaic than other Indo aryan languages
But so are many prakrits that could have possibly died out . And one language being more archaic does make it the direct ancestor of others by default. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:43, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Italian is more archaic than french since it better preserves old latin's vocabulary , but does that make Italian the ancestor of French ? Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
In my second last paragraph, I meant 'doesn't make it', not does. I apologise for the mistake. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:47, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Please understand that Buddhists had an oral tradition As well thst involved passing down the Buddhist doctrine in the Prakritic languages and they only started to write down the teachings(first in Pali, a Prakrit , and then in Sanskrit) hundreds of years after the Buddha's death (death date: 500-400 BCE) , around 1st century BCE. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 08:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Honestly I don't get that'earlier form' in the romance languages section as well . Still the status of Vedic Sanskrit (term was never used by it's speakers,native or otherwise) being the ancestor or even the 'earlier form' of Prakrits' is disputed. One of the links I gave is an example of that. So making one sided edits will only mislead readers. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 12:29, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
"The relationship between Vedic Sanskrit and Prakrits is very similar to the relationship between Classical Latin and the Romance languages " The relationship is similar but undisputably not the same. It is interesting to note that Latin is attested by written works at a much earlier date than all the other Romance languages while it is the 'exact opposite' for Prakrit and Sanskrit. In other words Latin preceded the other Romance languages in 'both spoken and written' forms while the same cannot be said for sanskrit and prakrit. Hence the analogy is false. Also there was no mention of the word Sanskrit until the 1st century BC. The language of the Vedas was called Chandas. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 12:35, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
And regardless of the reasons that Brahmins had in not writing the Vedic language down, there is no irrefutable evidence that the language written in the Vedas is the faithful reproduction of the language that was spoken much earlier. Just as Panini synthesised Sanskrit from Vedic , Vedic itself could be a modified form of an earlier language that 'could' have been the ancestor of all Prakrits'. There are Buddhists who claim Pali is Magadhi Prakrit and is the ancestor of all eastern prakrits but that is misleading because of grammatical differences between the two languages , especially case system which suggests the Buddhist monks modified and combined many Prakrits' to write down Buddhist doctrine.
Just saying that Vedic could be an earlier form of all prakrits is as misleading as saying Avestan(Indo Iranian) is the earlier form of Vedic , just because it is more archaic . It does not help the fact that Sanskrit and vedic are written at a much later time than the Prakrits' . We will never know the 'exact' ancestor of all Prakrits' , just as we don't know the exact ancestor of all Indo European languages. We just have an approximation called PIE. And I am aware that vedic is one of the languages that is used as it's base but that's because there was no other Indo Aryan language that was preserved as well as Vedic and could have been much older. That is why claiming Vedic as the 'earlier form' of Prakrit is misleading. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 13:09, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Well regardless of whether writing is important or not, it can atleast be another layer of proof to show that one language precedes another. Moreover I have found another reference on the wiki article's page itself that refutes 'Relic1234's claims: [7] Burde, Jayant (2004). Rituals, Mantras, and Science: An Integral Perspective. Motilal Banarsidass Publishe. p. 3. ISBN 978-81-208-2053-1. The Aryans spoke an Indo-European language ""sometimes"" called the ""Vedic"" language from which have descended Sanskrit and other Indic languages ... ""Prakrit was a group of variants which developed ""alongside"" Sanskrit."" This article mentions Vedic. So what exactly is this Vedic Sanskrit ? You can see here that the scholars are still trying to decide whether the common ancestor of all Prakrits' and Sanskrit, should be called Vedic or some other language. That is why making one sided edits on a disputed fact will only mislead others. You can see that the scholars support the notion that Prakrit is a language that developed alongside or parallely to sanskrit . I have given another reference that supports this notion,which you will find it being mentioned many times in the talk page. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 05:55, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
(Outdent since this is a new section break)
Later on (in plays and such) they became codified literary languages, but when the Asoka inscriptions were being composed, and when the Buddhists were first choosing Pali, they were probably reasonably close to regional colloquial vernaculars (certainly far more so than Sanskrit was). Sorry if I oversimplified a little, but the contrast between the status of Sanskrit and Prakrit at that time is still clear... AnonMoos ( talk) 00:22, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
No one is right or wrong here. The only point I want to make is making one sided edits using a fact that is much disputed by scholars will only serve to mislead readers instead of enlightening them. That is all. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 07:16, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
We can all post scholarly references that support our own point of view as we have all done so on this talk page, but that won't resolve the impasse will it ? So that is why it is best not to make edits that are built on disputed facts . Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 07:24, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't object . I support it. Leave Vedic out. The early forms in the English language wiki article is accurate though. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 10:21, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
@AnonMoos Indulging in subtle Ad Hominem are we ? Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 11:24, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
It has already been established in the talk section(not just in this article) that Vedic Sanskrit is not an ancestor of Prakrit and yet there is an image of a language tree in the article that still shows the same misconception. Hope someone will rectify it.
Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 08:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Never mind , fixed it. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 08:50, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
but saying that 'Prakrits' are as archaic as Vedic Sanskrit, is laughable Hahahaha.. cuz no Prakrits existed at the time of Vedic period and it's already clear, people spoke The Vedic Language and not venicular corrupt speech languages like 'prakrits', Prakrits came to existence after 700BCE.. Arkam Knight ( talk) 14:38, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
There are tracea of Prakrit in the Rig Veda, moreover there is not attestation date for rigvedic and prakrit preserves certain features that have been lost even in Rigvedic/Vedic as is written in : https://www.jstor.org/stable/3087594
This is also cited as wiki reference. Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 07:53, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
@AnonMoos, I'd like to see the reference where your claim is mentioned of Prakrit being derived from some unattended Sanskrit even though the term sanskrit was first used by Panini after he synthesized the language from Vedic, he himself called the vedic language as Chandas, there was no sanskrit before Panini. Besides this wiki language tree created by multiple authors shows that the Prakrits and Vedic are sister dialects instead of having the relationship of mother and daughter. Same is cited in a wiki reference. If you have trouble finding that reference please let me know. Language tree: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IndoEuropeanTree.svg Bodhiupasaka ( talk) 08:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
The article currently says that Prākṛta literally means "natural". This is a common enough modern misinterpretation (not to be found in any ancient or medieval source and goes against the etymology of the name "prākṛta"), it also goes directly against the native definitions of the word Prākṛta (normally anglicized as Prakrit).
The word Prākṛta is a nominal derivative (called taddhita) i.e. a noun showing relationship to another noun, "Prakṛti". In other words, "Prākṛta" is something that is derived from "Prakṛti" (original).
Both sanskrit and prakrit grammarians (many of who wrote grammars of both sanskrit and prakrit) explain that Sanskrit is the Prakṛti (original language from which the prakrits are derived - for citations from these native ancient and medieval scholars see the etymology section.
Most of the native Prākṛta (prakrit) grammars take Sanskrit as the starting point and indicate the departures of each Prakrit therefrom. On the other hand, every singly native Sanskrit grammatical text treats Sanskrit as a pre-existing language and makes no attempt to derive-from or associate it with any prakrit.
Therefore while some modern scholars say Prakrit (i.e. prākṛta) means "natural" - that is an incorrect statement. Prākṛta etymologically means "originating from the natural/source (language)", and that original/natural language has been identified by most pre-modern native scholars as Sanskrit.
The point of terming one group as Prākṛta and its source as Prakṛti is to distinguish them from each other - so that the relations between the natural/original language and the languages derived from the natural/original language are understood properly.
This explanation of the premodern scholars broadly in line with mainstream modern philological research which also considers Sanskrit (including the dialects of Vedic Sanskrit) as Old-Indic, and Prakrits and other similar forms as direct descendants of Old-Indic (which are therefore termed Middle-Indic). Therefore I have marked the statement Prākṛta literally means "natural" as dubious, but it is not just dubious, it is diametrically the opposite of the correct meaning. However I didnt remove the statement because while it's a misunderstanding, the misunderstanding is expressed by some modern scholars in their works - so a two-sided view is required about why that is wrong. Srkris ( talk) 12:07, 5 November 2023 (UTC)