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Guardian critique of this page
Just passing on the reference- which makes negative comments about our neutrality.-- Clem Rutter ( talk) 09:53, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
“ | A glance at his Wikipedia page reveals one side of the battleline. It has clearly been written primarily by religious conservatives. Its entries seek predominantly to accentuate the religious orthodoxy of the man who was born Jorge Mario Bergoglio. Throughout his papacy, it insists, Pope Francis has been a vocal opponent of abortion. | ” |
-- Երևանցի talk 02:19, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
At the end of the introduction is the line "In addition, various media outlets persist with notions that the Pontiff would officially change Catholic doctrine as part of the reform on the Roman Curia.[32]"
The phrase 'persist with notions' is essentially reporting a dissenting opinion as foolish instead of simply reporting both opinions. I think this line should indicate first the sources that cite the Pontiff as going to change the church, and then cite the article saying he won't. Instead it looks more like a strawman argument and less like a meaningful addition to the article (which already have this information in the preceeding lines). The article cites for that isn't clear on it's own sources so I am not sure how to repair that and wonder if perhaps that line isn't neccessary. Zkbt ( talk) 18:02, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Although I didn't add both points of view, I made it implicit in the wording that I changed below Changed text to create NPOV. "various media outlets persist with notions" changed to "various media outlets indicate, perhaps without basis,'. Zkbt ( talk) 20:23, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Made 2 changes more regarding NPOV. "Changed text again to maintain accurate depiction of source from 'reportedly' to 'supposedly' in sentence 'the Pope has changed the tone on Catholic doctrines and supposedly initiated ecclesiastical reform in the Vatican')"
For more NPOV removed 'seemingly' from 2 sentences 'portray Pope Francis either as a progressive papal reformer or with seemingly liberal, moderate values' and 'seemingly changed tone' added 'reportedly' to the second sentence to maintain connotation Zkbt ( talk) 21:16, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
The sources say that Jerry Zawada was removed from public ministry. They do not say "defrocked" and they do not say "laicized". Please follow the reliable secondary sources when reporting what happened. Elizium23 ( talk) 23:04, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
ishtaku, cus ammak bin zuna harim. LimosaCorel ( talk) 01:51, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
As I have been checking, it seems that he has already been stripped of duties in 2012, still during the reign of Benedict XVI; the only thing thing that has happened now is that the review confirmed the original sentence and added some further things, such as the life of prayer and penance. Seems very little to add to the article, and certainly too much to be in the lead. Cambalachero ( talk) 13:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
In the section 4.2 Non-believers, first paragraph:
"[W]e also sense our closeness to all those men and women who, although not identifying themselves as followers of any religious tradition, are nonetheless searching for truth, goodness and beauty, the truth, goodness and beauty of God. They are our valued allies in the commitment to defending human dignity, in building a peaceful coexistence between peoples and in safeguarding and caring for creation."
The expression "truth, goodness and beauty" is repeated. The reference number [171] should probably be at the end of the sentence and not the beginning of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.64.38.113 ( talk) 15:42, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Done I moved the references to the end of the quotation. However, quotations must be written exactly as they were formulated, even if they include "mistakes" such as redundancies. --
Cambalachero (
talk)
20:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
The introduction to the article focuses too much on his orthodox beliefs. While these may be true, this belongs in another section, as opposed to the introduction, as there are at least three paragraphs in the introduction about this subject alone. These either need to be shortened to a few sentences or moved to another section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100B:B11A:43A7:6DB8:B2A:A146:7239 ( talk) 07:42, 17 March 2014 (UTC) — 2600:100B:B11A:43A7:6DB8:B2A:A146:7239 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 2600:100B:B11A:43A7:6DB8:B2A:A146:7239 (UTC).
I've cleaned up the NPOV of that last paragraph a bit, but I think you're right. It should be in it's own portion of the article. Maybe one marked 'Media Portrayal'? Zkbt ( talk) 21:15, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
I decided to move the notes on media portrayel to 'public image' and removed the word 'officially' from the phrase 'officially change' as it seemed an unneccessary word for the statement. Zkbt ( talk) 15:09, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
The capitalism section ends with this paragraph: "Pope Francis' views were called Marxist by Rush Limbaugh and other conservatives as a result of his critique of capitalism with absolute market autonomy. Pope Francis responded that he considers the Marxist ideology to be wrong, and that his opinions are based on the social doctrine of the church. He said that he has met many Marxists 'who are good people.'" The two first sentences are fine: an attributed political view of Francis' ideas, and his political clarification about it. But do we need the third one? It sounds like something completely trivial, which may be said about just any political idea in the world. Cambalachero ( talk) 16:40, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
“ | Marxist ideology is wrong. But I have met many Marxists in my life who are good people, so I don’t feel offended ... there is nothing in the exhortation that cannot be found in the social doctrine of the church | ” |
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Emiliovillegas24 ( talk) 21:47, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Where would you add this photo? Cambalachero ( talk) 13:38, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Currently reads:
maintained that divorced and re-married Catholics may not receive Holy Communion,[19][20]
I contest that the following reports from a cross section of the UK & US media invalidates the above statement:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/05/pope-francis-catholic-church-divorce-change http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/24/pope-francis-divorced-remarried-communion_n_5204888.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2612242/Pictured-The-divorced-woman-Pope-Francis-told-OK-communion-going-against-centuries-Catholic-teaching.html
The critical word is obviously 'maintained' as this implies a continuation of an established Church doctrine. A better fragment might read:
has called for discussion within the vatican on whether divorced and re-married Catholics may indeed receive Holy Communion.
i am sure there are those with greater skill than I in the phrasing.
much love to the Wikipedia community and I hope that this is of some small value to the cause of sharing information and enlightenment.
Fri 4.02 am UK — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
138.251.245.134 (
talk)
03:02, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Does anyone have the book "On Heaven and Earth", translated to English? This article's section "Interfaith dialogue" has a quotation from that book, but the reference was written when Bergoglio was first appointed Pope, and the translation was made by the author of that reference from the still untranslated book in Spanish. It may be better if someone could confirm that the book translated that part exactly the same way (or change it to the translated book's version if not), and make a reference to the book itself. Cambalachero ( talk) 12:47, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
This article is very big, more than it should be. One of the sections that may be contributing to the size is the "Teachings" one, which is growing into a "What does Francis thinks of..." section. I propose to move most of it to Theology of Pope Francis, and leave here only the topics that the Church may usually be concerned about: Morality, Evangelization, Poverty, Abortion, Women and clericalism, Divorce and Homosexuality. The content of the other sections may be condensed in some of those as needed (for example, some points of "Capitalism" and his clarification that he's not marxist may fit in "Poverty"). Cambalachero ( talk) 18:27, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Add www.popevisit.jo for Jordan, Palestine, and Israel here? Includes wide range, such as 50th Anniversary with Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, Muslim, Jewish, various locations, etc... 99.119.130.240 ( talk) 07:00, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Previously, this article mentioned the historical fact that Cardinal Francis removed Conservative American Cardinal Raymond Burke from the Congregation of Bishops, the committee that chooses new Catholic Bishops. The Wikipedia article on Raymond Burke also omits this fact. This strongly suggests politically motivated suppression of unfavorable information, and should be corrected by some one with access to this page. See the NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/world/europe/pope-replaces-conservative-us-cardinal-on-influential-vatican-committee.html?_r=0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.132.88.244 ( talk) 22:52, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
In (what is presently) the fifth paragraph of the Wikipedia article on Pope Francis, the word "clericized" is used ("women be valued, not clericized.") Being an English-user I'm able to figure out the meaning using the surrounding the text. However, for one whose primary language is not English, deciphering the word might be problematic.
Clericized isn't recognized as an English word. You also cannot find it in Wiktionary.
The article referencing it is in German ("Meisner bestreitet Reformbedarf". Deutschlandfunk. December 24, 2013. Retrieved January 5, 2014), and I scanned the (German) article and did not see the use of the word "clericized" in its body. According to Wiktionary, the word "cleric" has Latin and Greek roots, not Germanic, so I feel this word is being used as an English word -- and there is no such recognized English word.
Should the word be recognized, and added to Wiktionary? Should another word be used? Is the meaning so patent as to render the point moot?
P13w26paul ( talk) 14:05, 5 June 2014 (UTC)P13w26paul
I have added a "not in citation given" template in the end of the "Nonbelievers" subsection of "Relations with religious communities and others", as that is the closest Wiki has to what I am aiming for-specifically, the interpretation of a Scriptural verse, as this statement, "According to Christianity, including Roman Catholicism, no human being can avoid doing wrong," is reffed by Rom. 3:23, "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," and that is contested in interpretation even within Catholicism. Bettering the Wiki ( talk) 06:06, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
He's after excommunicating the Mafia. Can somebody add this? 86.40.20.163 ( talk) 15:48, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
We certainly shouldn't report everything he says or does and I wasn't saying we should but I would have thought that that was a big thing. An entire organisation excommunicated (I'm surprised they weren't excomunicated far sooner but anyway). 86.40.139.31 ( talk) 21:07, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Old Text Under Heading "Early Issues," 3rd paragraph:
On the first Holy Thursday following his election, Francis washed and kissed the feet of 12 juvenile offenders, ages 14–21, at Rome's Casal del Marmo detention facility, telling them the ritual of foot washing is a sign that he is at their service.[185] He told them to "Help one another. This is what Jesus teaches us".[185] According to church experts, this was the first time that a pope has included women in this ritual (there were 2 women and 10 men).[185] Canon lawyer Edward Peters noted that this was a break with canon law, although not with any "divine directive".[185] The twelve included two Muslims,[186] including one of the two women.[187] Before leaving, the pope told the detainees, "Do not let yourselves be robbed of hope".[186]
Suggested Insertion after "Canon lawyer Edward Peters noted that this was a break with canon law, although not with any "divine directive".[185]":
It is arguable, under canon law provisions on customs, that the Pope's action constituted approval for including women in the ritual.[186]
Source to be cited as Footnote 186: Sobrino, Oswald. "Pope & Foot Washing of Females". Logos Blog. Retrieved 25 April 2013. ˜˜˜˜
I think that part needs some improvement. From all accounts, Pope Francis really fought Liberation Theology. Leonardo Boff can pretend otherwise, because of his vision of a political church, but this is whats true: "As the article points out, Pope Francis was all too familiar with liberation theology when he was the Jesuit provincial in Argentina, and opposed it “even when this stand left him isolated among the Jesuits.” Significantly, he dismissed it in a preface he wrote for a book on the future of Latin America by his friend, the Uruguayan Guzman Carriquiry Lecour, when he wrote, “After the collapse of “real socialism” (that is, Marxism), these currents of thought (liberation theology) were plunged into confusion. Incapable of either radical reformulation or new creativity, they survived by inertia, even if there are still some today who, anachronistically, would like to propose it again.”" [1]. Mistico ( talk) 13:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
There are many sources that can be used for Pope Francis opposition to Liberation Theology. This one for example: "Jesuit Archbishop recounts "strong stand" of Pope Francis against Liberation Theology and Marxism", published on LifeSiteNews, on 18 March 2013: [2] Mistico ( talk) 14:10, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
It seems we now have two good quality images of Pope Francis from his trip to Korea available to us. The one currently being used is Francis sticking his thumbs up to the crowd. Its a nice picture but I feel the second picture of him smiling and waving to the crowd would be more suitable for the info-box. Tomh903 ( talk) 10:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi I don't know about other countries but here, in Poland, some media have picked up the Pope's remark made to the journalists during a flight a short while ago in which the Pope hinted that he would in a few years be no longer alive or that he may resign. I haven't investigated the matter any further so I can't give any specifics. Has any of you heard something more about that? 79.186.31.29 ( talk) 09:09, 30 August 2014 (UTC)Piotrek
Why isn't there any information in the article about the pope's lack of regnal number? Cold as Gray ( talk) 11:38, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
The best-known examples of NOT using "I" (i.e., "the first") are from the British monarchy. John, Anne, and Victoria have no numbers because no other British monarchs have used those names. The first Elizabeth was also in that situation until retroactively being given the "I" when another Elizabeth came to the throne in 1952.
This article claims that Pope Francis understands Ukrainian. According to the two sources given: there is no mention of this in the BBC article, and while the Euronews article (cached version) claims that Francis "speaks the language", the only evidence seems to be that he once said "Glory to our Lord Jesus Christ" in Ukrainian. Is this sufficient to say that he understands Ukrainian? Jinjibïar ( talk) 21:54, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
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OK on the following except for the order of the remarks:
>Bergoglio was named Auxiliary Bishop of Buenos Aires in 1992 and ordained on 27 June 1992 as Titular Bishop of Auca,[75] with Cardinal Antonio Quarracino, >Archbishop of Buenos Aires, serving as principal consecrator.[56] On 3 June 1997, Bergoglio was appointed Coadjutor Archbishop of Buenos Aires with right of >automatic succession.[57] He chose as his episcopal motto Miserando atque eligendo.[76] It is drawn from Saint Bede's homily on Matthew 9:9–13: "because he >saw him through the eyes of mercy and chose him".[77]
Assuming he chose his episcopal motto when he initially became a bishop (the appointment as auxiliary bishop of Buenos Aires), could you take the "On June 3, 1997, ..." sentence and put it at start of next paragraph? The next paragraph currently starts with Bergoglio succeeding to the see of Buenos Aires.
128.63.16.20 ( talk) 20:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I still maintain that the proper terminology here should be "Divorced Catholics who have attempted remarriage", because according to the Catholic Church, it is impossible to "remarry" when there is a prior bond. Unfortunately, many so-called WP:RS use the problematic phrasing "Catholics who re-marry following divorce" or worse, "Divorced and remarried Catholics". So until we get some more-reliable sources, those that don't misreport matters of internal Church Law, I suppose we will have to labor under the inaccurate wordings. Elizium23 ( talk) 16:27, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 03:55, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
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Emilio F. Mignone, Argentina's most well known human rights leader at the time of his death [1] accused Pope francis's of giving the military dictatorship the green light to kidnap to Jesuit priests in his book Witness to the Truth: The complicity of Church and Dictatorship in Argentina. This was the first book published investigating Jorge Bergoglio's complicity in crimes against humanity committed by the last military dictatorship. Argentinaeditor2 ( talk) 10:53, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
References
Should these quotes be added to the article? ClaeszXIV ( talk) 15:36, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
<ref>
tag has too many names (see the
help page).<ref>
tag has too many names (see the
help page).<ref>
tag has too many names (see the
help page).No matter if they are used or not, references are to back up text and is a way of finding new material as well. References should only be removed if are unreliable. I don't want to edit war in this one, but I highly disagre on removing valid references. This has now been removed twice with no valid reason, so I put it here. <ref>The precise number of popes has been a matter for scholarly debate for centuries. John A. Hardon's ''Modern Catholic Dictionary'' (1980) lists [[Pope John Paul II|John Paul II]] (1978–2005) as the 264th pope, making Francis the 266th.</ref> Hafspajen ( talk) 16:48, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't think that this article can be considered a relieable reference. The article Tikkun (magazine) mentions that it has been criticized for its anti-semitic comments, and the article itself commits many inacuracies and falacies. For example, it takes as true the urban myth of the photos of Bergoglio and Videla. It criticizes the links of Bergoglio with some neo-fascist movement, links that only exist in their minds. It criticizes that Bergoglio had handed Jalics and Yorio to the death squads, a claim that has long been refuted. It criticizes that Bergoglio had not risked his life by "standing up" against the military junta and suggests that means he supported them; an opinion, yes, but a weird and unreasonable opinion (and an opinion that lacks information: unlike Oscar Romero, Bergoglio was no archbishop back then, and had no noteworthy political or religious autorithy, so his resistance would have been futile and unnoticed). I think we should remove it. Cambalachero ( talk) 00:12, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
A part of the section on personal life says "He attended the technical secondary school Escuela Nacional de Educación Técnica N° 27 Hipólito Yrigoyen[48] and graduated with a chemical technician's diploma", with a link to Hipólito Yrigoyen. That's not the purpose of links. Hipólito Yrigoyen was a president of Argentina, but that sentence is not talking about him. It talks about a school named after him. The correct link would be " Hipólito Yrigoyen (school)", but the school is not noteworthy to have a specific article. So, "Hipólito Yrigoyen" should remain unlinked in that sentence. Cambalachero ( talk) 13:58, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
A sentence in the
The article cited at #278 does not lend support for the statement that either Vatican conservatives or US evangelicals have brought up "the history of the relationship between religion and science." While an evangelical spokesperson does say that "The Catholic church ... has been misled on the science," that refers only to being misled at the present time about climate change. It does not say "the church has been misled on the science again" nor "the church has been historically misled on science."
Furthermore, it would make no sense for opponents of climate change to cite the presumably "troubled" history of Christianity and science as one of their reasons. This charge is usually made by secular critics of religion who believe that religion's meddling in science is bad for science. In other words, people who value science don't want the Church discouraging scientific process. The argument by climate change deniers is that the science is bad and would mislead the Catholic church.
So either a source for this specific point needs to be included in the citation, or the sentence should be revised to read:
If a reference to the relationship between religion and science is important, it should be included elsewhere in the article. Ileanadu ( talk) 15:19, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
The commonly used abbreviation PP actually stands for "Pastor pastorum" (shepherd of shepherds) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.171.120 ( talk) 21:59, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Timeline of Pope Francis's papacy? -- Lapilluminati ( talk) 18:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Pope Francis lauds his predecessor's decision of resignation as courageous and says that if needed he will do the same if he feels he is no longer equal to the job. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-31875507 Noteworthy? 79.186.26.75 ( talk) 10:32, 15 March 2015 (UTC)PIotrek
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50.29.149.222 ( talk) 13:13, 7 April 2015 (UTC) Pope Francis is a "public figure" NOT a "politician"! Specifically he is the Head of the Roman Catholic Church. Please edit his "category" on Facebook and Wikipedia ASAP. Thank you.
There is a paragraph in the "Kirchners" section that mentions Bergoglio opposing abortion, and the answers of "the government". I tried to make it more precise, and find who said that. The article cited is equaly vague, and also cites just the "Kirchner administration", but at least they provide a quote, and say that they accused him of "ideological malfeasance". So, I searched for those words. I found [www.lanacion.com.ar/949614-acusan-de-malversacion-ideologica-a-bergoglio here] that it was Guillermo Guerin, a politician of the Buenos Aires city, ruled by an opposing party. So, as it is not the relation of Bergoglio with the Kirchners, and his opinion about abortion is already detailed elsewhere, I will delete the paragraph. Cambalachero ( talk) 02:09, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
That seems to be the implicit message in much of the disconnected political trivia in the lead paragraphs of this article. The information about Francis' positions on church authority, homosexuality, abortion, sexual abuse, etc., etc. belong under the Teachings section, and in fact the information is already there.
Remember, the lead should summarize the whole article, not serve as cover for launching debating points at readers. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 18:43, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Does Pope Francis has a Masters degree? The wiki bio doesn't seem to say that. Tom Ruen ( talk) 05:10, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Sergio Rubin wrote the biography " El jesuita" ( Spanish: The jesuit), and it was the only biography of Bergoglio written before he became pope. For obvious reasons, I'm sure that it wasn't published outside of Argentina at the time (as a mere archbishop, hardly anyone abroad even knew about him). But, what about later? Are there editions in English of that book? Should the article about the book be renamed? Cambalachero ( talk) 16:54, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Acording to this trustful source ( http://www.cemla.com/busqueda.php#)
BERGOGLIO, MARIO 21 S CONTADOR CATOLICA ITALIANA GIULIO CESARE GENOVA 01/02/1929 - BUENOS AIRES Born in ALESSANDRIA Pope Francis is listed as the "third consecutive non-Italian pope to hold the office". Technically Pope Francis is Italian. He is the son of Italian immigrants and therefore racially and ethnically Italian. In truth he is the first Italian-American pope. Thank you. Tom Serino, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.231.181 ( talk) 13:29, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
I have written a new lead at User:Cambalachero/Francis, trying to make a summary of details from most sections, and removing some stuff that was not detailed elsewhere, or unneeded puffery. Do you think it is a good replacement, or do you think we should fix something from it? Cambalachero ( talk) 17:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
"Bergoglio often rose hours before his classmates to serve Mass for Czmil", a Ukrainian priest. The linked source says "Today’s Pope ... awoke many hours before his classmates to concelebrate at our Divine Liturgy with Fr. Stepan." I realize it was rewritten so as not to be a simple quotation, and to correct "concelebrate" (as he was a schoolboy and not yet a priest) but the change from "Divine Liturgy" to "Mass" is questionable. Does this mean that the person who changed the source knows that Fr Czmil did not celebrate the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy and did indeed celebrate the Roman Mass? In which case the Patriarch is wrong in his statement. If Fr Czmil did in fact celebrate the Divine Liturgy then the word "Mass" should be changed. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 00:35, 19 June 2015 (UTC) not notable at all. I've never heard of Fr. Czmil and this piece of information, though maybe interesting to a few, is absolutely irrelevant and not notable at all to Pope Francis. Remove it. 66.67.32.161 ( talk) 22:05, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
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There is a serious error in the first paragraph of this article. The final statement in the first paragraph states that Pope Francis holds his office "ex officio," as the Bishop of Rome, and that the title of pope is simply ancient, and implies it is outdated. There is no reference for what is clearly a brash and anti-Catholic claim here. Please remove the term "ex-officio," and "ancient," as these implications are tantamount to graffiti. 70.196.76.34 ( talk) 03:29, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
"As pope, Francis was Grand Master of the following orders:" - - surely this should be in the present tense. 92.90.26.121 ( talk) 13:06, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
I know it is not well perceived - or to some simply not imaginable (is Kwawikagami editing here, too?) - over here when somebody speaks various (foreign) languages fluently and English isn't one of them. Still, for veritae sake: He does not only "understand some" German, but he wrote his PhD thesis in it, in Germany. So please, even if it gives you a hard time, put "understands some" together with English in the last place. At the end of the day when you've overcame your fear, you'll feel fine. 84.184.114.230 ( talk) 14:45, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
His book deserves mention in this article, if not its own article. SegataSanshiro1 ( talk) 23:45, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Question -- I am not sure what "unbridled capitalism" means in the context of this piece (in my view that term would not apply to any politico-economic system that has existed in any developed economy within at least the last seventy-five years); from what I read in the media, which is generally quite friendly to socialism where I live, Francis' views are considerably left of that; I would be grateful for advice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:5B0:2924:A2F0:17E:B946:C1ED:8734 ( talk) 13:48, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
One more question; what, exactly, is "social debt"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.44.193.104 ( talk) 14:16, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
One small correction should be made at the outset of the article. He is the Sovereign of the Vatican City STATE, not "Vatican City." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.105.246.107 ( talk) 17:03, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Would the recent controversy about his meeting with Kim Davis be important enough for inclusion in this article? It has enough sources and has seen excessive coverage. Supertanno ( talk) 13:15, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
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Please consider adding Pope Francis' (native) Spanish papal name - i.e. Francisco
Aneditorthathelps ( talk) 01:37, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jfhutson ( talk · contribs) 04:15, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
I can see that much has been done to address the issues from the last review. I'm afraid, however, that there are also things that were not addressed, such as short paragraphs, dead links, and sources which the last reviewer did not see as reliable. I'm also seeing some neutrality issues, which were not brought up at the last review. Also, the article is very long, but I can't say it's very focused. For example, the Fernando de la Rúa section tells me very little about Francis, and gives a confusing, detailed account.
This is only my second review, so I'm going to give it some time before I decide. Please feel free to discuss, and I'm happy to request a second opinion if you disagree with my comments. -- JFH ( talk) 04:15, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
This article has failed its Good article nomination. This is how the article, as of November 27, 2015, compares against the six good article criteria:
When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to have it reassessed. Thank you for your work so far.— JFH ( talk) 21:05, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
For a better insight into this man's soul, read http://www.globalresearch.ca/washingtons-pope-who-is-francis-i-cardinal-jorge-mario-bergoglio-and-argentinas-dirty-war/5326675
Excerpt from the link above:
The Secret Memorandum
The military government acknowledged in a Secret Memo (see below) that Father Bergoglio had accused the two priests of having established contacts with the guerilleros, and for having disobeyed the orders of the Church hierarchy (Conflictos de obedecencia). It also stated that the Jesuit order had demanded the dissolution of their group and that they had refused to abide by Bergoglio’s instructions.The document acknowledges that the “arrest” of the two priests, who were taken to the torture and detention center at the Naval School of Mechanics, ESMA, was based on information transmitted by Father Bergoglio to the military authorities. (signed by Mr. Orcoyen)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.12.17 ( talk) 11:32, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Consecration of Russia says:
This would have been pretty big deal if Francis did this, but there's no mention of it here. Is it true? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 05:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Francis told Slovenian crowds to 'defend family values', meaning curbing families of same-sex couples-- 146.198.189.144 ( talk) 20:08, 20 December 2015 (UTC) Link: http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/breaking_pope_s_plea_to_ban_same_sex_marriage_convinces_catholics_in_Slovenia -- 146.198.189.144 ( talk) 20:31, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
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Pope_Francis#Public_image mentions what Francis said and Donald's response. While I agree that Trump's rebuttal is the most notable and should be mentioned first, I wonder if perhaps we should mention some other ones from notable people who opt to comment on this? While the other politicians appear to be staying out of it, some notable people have weighed in a bit. For example Lew Rockwell draws a comparison to the papal saint named Pope Leo IV here:
I guess the saint was not only against open borders, he was a racist, a xenophobe, an Islamophobe, a discriminator, and an opponent of diversity.
{{
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: Check |archive-url=
value (
help); Unknown parameter |dead-url=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)I'm not sure how citeable this is, is anyone going to dispute that this is about Francis+Trump even though it doesn't specifically say so, considering the timing?
Also wondering if we should point to earlier in the article to where Francis is shown praying at the Western Wall, perhaps by inserting an anchor to that part. Not sure how to phrase it though. 184.145.18.50 ( talk) 21:09, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
On 27 November, Francis released the album Wake Up!. I'm not quite sure where to fit this into the rest of the article, and how much significance we should give it. For now, I figured creating a discography section was better than nothing. It isn't referred to anywhere else in the article, however, so if anyone could tell me how things like this are typically handled and help incorporate it in a meaningful way, it would be very nice. Kranix ( talk | contribs) 01:28, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
This album NEEDS to be mentioned in his article. It's as important as it's books, texts, etc.-- MisterSanderson ( talk) 05:21, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
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We would like to add the following copy to the Pope Francis page. Sacred Heart University has named a building in his honor. The copy is
"Sacred Heart University has names its sophomore residence hall in honor of Pope Francis. Opening in Fall 2016, it will be called Jorge Bergoglio Hall.
Here is the link to the source: http://www.sacredheart.edu/campuslife/lifeonoffcampus/housingandresidentiallife/residentialhalls/jorgebergogliohall/
Here is the link to the Sacred Heart University Wikipedia Page: /info/en/?search=Sacred_Heart_University
Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by SacredwikiHeart ( talk • contribs)
I think the "Falkland Islands" section is pointless and should be removed. So far, the Pope has stayed apart from the sovereignty conflict, and everything else is just about people trying, in vain, to involve him with that issue. The only thing to report is that there is nothing to report. The hierarchy of the religious organizations of the Falkland Islands belongs in the respective article.
As for the quoted comment, it is also trivial for the topic at hand. First, that comment was made when he was archbishop, and wasn't still required to stay neutral on those conflicts. And, even taking that in consideration, his comment is only tangentially adressing the sovereignty disputed. He did not say that from out of the blue, he said it during a mass for the anniversay of the war (so, it was basically mandatory to talk about it), and he did not focus on the political dispute, but on the deceased soldiers. Note as well that this passed as completely trivial and unnoticed on its day. It was only mentioned once he was appointed Pope, and the British digged into the archives to find any case when he had made reference to the dispute; this was the best they could find. And it proved to be a pointless discovery: no matter what does Francis the man think about the dispute, Francis the pope stayed neutral and did not do anything in relation to it. Cambalachero ( talk) 22:08, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
See it here - [9]. This info should be added in the Homosexuality section. M.Karelin ( talk) 15:53, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
Is this image of His Holiness Pope Francis, pictured in Mexico (February 2016), a good image to replace the current one since the current is 2015 and this proposal image is in 2016. Just wondering. -- TDKR Chicago 101 ( talk) 03:11, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
I think that the intro to Pope Francis might be more accurate if it said he was the head of the Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church, or Latin Rite, is only one (though its the largest) part the the universal Catholic Church which even the Wikipedia page that the hyperlink redirects to states: The Latin Church, the Eastern Catholic Churches and institutes such as the Jesuits, mendicant orders and enclosed monastic orders, reflect a variety of theological emphases in the Church"
Thoughts? Keefete ( talk) 13:30, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
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Hello, may I edit this biography about Pope Francis, like the biblical aspect of it. I mean no harm. Thanks.
Christ Knight 777
Christ Knight 777 ( talk) 19:07, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Did the pontiff really chose his papal name after St. Francis of Assisi? There are three saints venerated in Catholicism by the name of Francis, the other two namely St. Francis Xavier and St. Francis de Sales. This is definitely a gray area. Jebbiex ( talk) 03:41, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
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I would like to request the removal of the following sentence under the Lutheran (ecumenical relations) subheader:
Cardinal Bergoglio frequently recommended his personal friend Manuel Acuña, a Lutheran pastor, to perform exorcisms on individuals in whom there were signs of demonic possession.[136]
Reason: The source for this statement, see 136, is from a non-credible source featuring sensationalist news such as alien encounters. Please kindly remove this sentence unless a proper scientific/non-fiction source can be found.
2601:246:A01:7D0:E42A:15A6:11A3:61B0 ( talk) 01:45, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
That's totally wrong. In all of the above Francis holds liberal views. So please change or delete that phrase! I can't for the page is semi-protected. -- 212.186.14.29 ( talk) 20:40, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Francis may be considered "liberal" because he is less strict over the protocols, and because he give more priority to the issues related with poverty than to those listed (he talks about it more often). But that doesn't mean he changed the views, just that he has other priorities. It is a common misunderstanding to think that he has different views over those issues, and Wikipedia must report accurate information. Cambalachero ( talk) 12:59, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
What Cambalachero said. Pope Francis has undeniably given greater emphasis to certain social issue or points of doctrine than his predecessors. But that is his role. He is not a bookkeeper of dead laws. He is a living shepherd of a developing tradition. Thus, he is free, and in fact he is required, to emphasize whatever issues he sees as most pressing during his pontificate. But just because he emphasizes issues that might, in some countries, be associated with a "liberal" political platform, it does not follow that he has broken from tradition in any way. Nor does this mean that he is trying to make a "conservative" church into a "liberal" one. At any rate, if you believe he has gone further and has actually contradicted specific parts of tradition, then it should be very easy to provide credible sources to show how and when he did this. Lordfarquaad ( talk) 18:29, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the introduction cites no sources and is pretty pro-Francis e.g. "Throughout his public life, Pope Francis has been noted for his humility", "He is credited with having a humble, less formal approach to the papacy than his predecessors" and other relatively insignificant details such as how he wears silver instead of gold. I think the whole paragraph is unsuitable; we don't want a summary written with the purpose of presenting Francis as a good guy. Frexit ( talk) 09:36, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
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Please change "title Holy Land: Vandal tries to set fire to Dormition Abbey" to "title=Holy Land: Vandal tries to set fire to Dormition Abbey" because this citation lacks a recognized title and title paremeter, which this seems to be.
47.148.79.80 ( talk) 19:06, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
The article reads like a hagiography. Sure we can do better then that and it should be easy to find sources for substantial criticism given the controversial history of Mario Bergoglio. -- 41.247.242.39 ( talk) 14:42, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
I added under the international diplomacy section that Pope Francis demanded the resignation of Matthew Festing, the Prince and Grand Master of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta. Feel free to add any more information. -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 09:16, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
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Chiara200 ( talk) 14:16, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
This sentence is false: "as well as current de facto Prince and Grand Master of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta," because: https://www.orderofmalta.int/government/grand-commander/ From 28 January 2017, following the resignation of Fra’ Matthew Festing from the office of Grand Master, the Sovereign Order of Malta is governed by a Lieutenant ad interim in the person of H.E. Fra’ Ludwig Hoffmann von Rumerstein. He will stay in office until the election of a new Grand Master. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chiara200 ( talk • contribs) 11:32, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
Does this headline warrants its own place in the page? Blue sphere 04:51, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
This is important to be in the entry because it shows that Pope Francis reaffirms the Catholic Church doctrine on this issue: "Francis reaffirmed the Catholic doctrine that politicians who support legal abortion and euthanasia shouldn't take communion, in the Aparecida Document, in March 2013: "We hope that legislators [and] heads of government... will defend and protect [the dignity of human life] from the abominable crimes of abortion and euthanasia; that is their responsibility... We must adhere to "eucharistic coherence", that is, be conscious that they cannot receive Holy Communion and at the same time act with deeds or words against the commandments, particularly when abortion, euthanasia, and other grave crimes against life and family are encouraged. This responsibility weighs particularly over legislators, heads of governments, and health professionals." [1] Mistico ( talk) 02:52, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I found out the Aparecida Document direct source. There is no reason to delete this reference again: [10] Mistico ( talk) 19:11, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
I was surprised to find this article listed as a class C article and propose it be raised to class B status. It seems to meet the general criteria that "The article is mostly complete and without major problems, but requires some further work to reach good article standards."
A bit of history:
Since it is now extensively sourced and has been repeatedly considered for, but not granted, Good Article status, it seems that it meets class B status as defined above. -- SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 00:03, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Under the heading "Role in international diplomacy", it states that he gave 13 speeches in Israel but the source states the speeches were split across Israel, Jordan, and Palestine. Please correct this error. Thanks, 2001:1970:5DE1:6A00:9031:4303:45A:33B9 ( talk) 22:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
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Francis's openings to "modernity on sexual morality, communion for remarried Catholics and friendly relations with other religions have opened a gulf between progressives and traditionalists." to They claim that Francis is open "modernity on sexual morality, communion for remarried Catholics and friendly relations with other religions have opened a gulf between progressives and traditionalists."
Because Pope Francis is not open to modernity on Sexual Morality 123.231.124.180 ( talk) 08:29, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
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In the criticism section it says "opennings to sexual modernity and communion for divorced and remarried" I think this should be gotten rid of because Amoris Laetita hasnt been clarified yet and Francis isnt open to "sexual modernity" Ilikerabbits! ( talk) 14:26, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
This article is in the category "Critics of Islamophobia", but it seems it is sourced only to an Arabian newspaper.
I am trying to understand if a source is needed to categorize it also for this and all other articles.
There are many articles where the article is categorized and it is sourced to a published article.
User:Cpt.a.haddock is removing this category from several pages even though it is sourced to published article. He says it is not enough for categorization.
See his contributions: /info/en/?search=Special:Contributions/Cpt.a.haddock
For example, at Vinay Lal the categorization is sourced to this article: Vinay Lal: Implications of American Islamophobia, Economic and Political Weekly, Vol. 50, Issue No. 51, 19 Dec, 2015. But even then, the category was removed by User Cpt.a.Haddock.
The question is, is this enough for categorization? If this source is not good enough, I do not understand how this article is categorized in the category without adequate sources. -- Sebastianmaali ( talk) 14:23, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
Why was Jon O'Brien's quote of Francis's decision to forgive post-abortive women disappeared from the Abortion section? We musn't be selecting only the information favourable to an editor's point of view, as per WP:CHERRYPICK. SLIGHTLY mad 06:14, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Where did the word "presbytariate" come from (section heading for pre-papal years 1958–2013)? Should this be "presbyterate"? Wiktionary has an entry for the word "presbyterate" ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/presbyterate) but not "presbyteriate". The new word appears to have been introduced quite recently, and similarly the article on Pope John Paul II has a section headed "Presbyteriate", which has replaced the word "Priesthood". - BobKilcoyne ( talk) 10:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
I've amended this word in both articles - BobKilcoyne ( talk) 05:41, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
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There has been people named pope francis since 1752( Mohamed Naufan ( talk) 12:57, 1 December 2017 (UTC))
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At the very beginning, you can add "French: François" That's all, thanks! Shaaay ( talk) 21:32, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
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change "Catholic Church" to "Roman Catholic Church" Researchatbriancraigmcdaniel ( talk) 19:01, 22 January 2018 (UTC) Had intended to change "Catholic Church" to "Roman Catholic Church" to be more precise and for continuity with articles on earlier Roman Catholic Popes (their are other Popes in the Christian world)
References
Spintendo ᔦᔭ 12:20, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Therefore his episcopate didn't end in 2013 187.3.146.118 ( talk) 15:17, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
From the article: "The pope canonized Joseph Vaz on his visit to Sri Lanka on 14 January 2015 and canonized a further four saints on the following 17 May; he canonized Junípero Serra on 23 September while visiting the United States and then canonized four saints on 18 October including the first married couple to be named as saints."
Seems incorrect as a result of bad wording, and may mislead readers. Louis Martin and Marie-Azélie Guérin were not the first married couple to be canonized, but were the first married couple to be canonized as a couple. There are many other of married couples that were declared saints before them, pre-congregational and officially- Mary and Joseph spring to mind. Should be "including the first couple to be named as saints together" or similar, to avoid confusion and for the sake of accuracy.
222.155.167.180 ( talk) 07:09, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
@ Hydrargyrum Regards this edit; the Vatican most certainly did not categorically deny the story. They issued one of their famous non-denial denials. Nowhere did they say the Pope did not say what he is alleged to have said. Rather they are saying there was no "official" interview and the quote may not be entirely accurate. If the Pope had been misquoted on something like this the Holy See would have come right out and said so in no uncertain terms. This story is being widely reported in both the Catholic and mainstream press. It is certainly fair to note the Holy See's milquetoast response as a qualifier. But as far as I am aware we go with what reliable sources are saying and neither the Pope nor Sr. Scalfari have issued any denials or retractions. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 21:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
If we're going to protect a page against editing--clearly a politically motivated decision--let us at least ensure that the page reads as if written by an adult possessing adequate mastery of English. Consider this sentence:
"He opposes consumerism, overdevelopment, and supports taking action on . . ."
CLEARLY, he opposes "consumerism AND [in place of comma] overdevelopment [no following comma] and supports taking action on . . ."
If we can't understand the very rudiments of English grammar and properly place commas, we have no business edit-protecting anything. This arrogance on the part of such junior practitioners is appalling.
2601:589:4B00:7AB:5494:E0A5:18B8:9EEE ( talk) 15:13, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Added: Updated /info/en/?search=Pope_Francis#Year_of_Mercy. Pope Francis established the World Day of the Poor in his Apostolic Letter, Misericordia et Misera, issued on 20 November 2016 to celebrate the end of the Extraordinary Jubilee of Mercy. FullfillC21 ( talk) 13:07, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I've noticed at the page's start someone edited the pope's birth name to include his mother's maiden name. I don't think that part counts as the pope's birth name and I wanted to check if that was the case or if this needs to be reverted. 14.202.222.175 ( talk) 19:17, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Reliable sources were cited, it is controversial, it is about Francis. Why was my edition undone? DizzinessOfFreedom ( talk) 03:30, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
This is never what was claimed in the article in the first place. But that a pontifical medal was given to a pro abortion activist, not that it was given to her by this very fact. As I already said, I cited another source, namely, Catholic News Agency. DizzinessOfFreedom ( talk) 03:51, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Below is the text from this conversation which took place on my talk page regarding these edits:
I want to know the reason why you removed my edit. DizzinessOfFreedom ( talk) 03:32, 23 August 2018 (UTC) :As I said, Breitbart is not recognized as a credible source. It also gave incorrect information. She was awarded a Pontifical Knighthood, being made a Dame Commander of the Order of St. Gregory and the award was not given to her in connection to her work for women's reproductive rights, but for her work as a government official. She happens to support abortion, which may have caused controversy, but that is not the same claim. If there is/was controversy regarding her award, this needs to be cited with credible references that are not from a political opinion and commentary website. As far as categories such as "Liberal theologians" and "Anti-Modernism" goes, those are orphaned categories. They are not connected to any other categories on Wikipedia. Furthermore, they are too vague. What is "liberal"? It has different definitions depending on the context, and who decides what a "liberal" theologian is? "Anti-Modernism" has the same issue. It's too vague. Is it Anti-Modernism in the Catholic Church? In Christianity? In visual art? In architecture? It's not specific and does not improve the quality of the article. -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 03:39, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
It did not say in the article that the medal was given to her because she was an a pro abortion activist, but that it was given to a pro abortion activist. I cited another source. DizzinessOfFreedom ( talk) 03:45, 23 August 2018 (UTC) : Lilianne Ploumen is a Dutch politician who has done activism work regarding women's reproductive health. She is not notable because of her activism. There was no mention as to why the award was given or who she is, other than a "abortion rights activist". This implies bias. Catholic News Agency is a reliable source, but you didn't use the article ( [11]) to explain the backstory or the reason for the award, which would clarify the incident's supposed controversy: "Responding to requests of clarification, Paloma Garcia-Ovejero, deputy director of the Holy See Press Office, said that “the honorific of the St. Gregory the Great Pontifical Order that Liliane Ploumen, then Minister for Development received in June 2017, during the visit of the Dutch Royals to the Holy Father, is part of the diplomatic praxis of the exchange of decorations among delegations during official visits between heads of state and government to the Vatican.”
It explains why/how such honours are given and that they are not endorsements and have no connection to any activism or pro-abortion policies Ploumen was behind. -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 03:49, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
The source of Bishop Fellay calling him a modernist is in the article. It wasnt in the edition summary. You need to look first before making such claims. DizzinessOfFreedom ( talk) 03:36, 23 August 2018 (UTC) :See above comment. -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 03:39, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
--
Willthacheerleader18 (
talk)
03:56, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
CNSNews
[12], according to the website she is very noted for her activism, and has launched a pro abortion fund called She Decides, in which it was raised 300 million us dollars. She is noted for her activism, and this is exactly the reason for the controversy. Your personal opinion does not count for anything.
DizzinessOfFreedom (
talk)
04:07, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Is this covered in the article? I wrote the content below for Curial response to Catholic sexual abuse cases. Is Francis' position on the abuse of children by clergy - and the cover-ups - included in this article about the Pope? If so, I did not find it.
In August 2018, Pope Francis apologized in a 2,000 word letter after the release of a grand jury report confirming that over 1,000 children were sexually abused by "predator priests" in Pennsylvania for decades, often covered up by the Church. "Pope apologizes for priest sex abuse scandal with 'sorrow and shame'". NBC News. New York. 2018-08-20. Retrieved 2018-08-21.
"With shame and repentance, we acknowledge as an ecclesial community that we were not where we should have been, that we did not act in a timely manner, realizing the magnitude and the gravity of the damage done to so many lives ... We showed no care for the little ones; we abandoned them ... The heart-wrenching pain of these victims, which cries out to heaven, was long ignored, kept quiet or silenced."
The Pope said the church was developing a "zero tolerance" policy on abuse (which he called "crimes") and cover-ups. Vatican spokesman Greg Burke emphasized that the letter was not about incidents in a specific geographic area. "Pope Francis has written to the people of God and that means everyone." "Pope apologizes for priest sex abuse scandal with 'sorrow and shame'". CNN. Atlanta. 2018-08-20. Retrieved 2018-08-21. Peter K Burian ( talk) 20:03, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Hi, though it is at present unknown if Pope Francis has any official opinion on alien life the generally accepted position of the Catholic Church does not discount the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in the visible Universe. In the event of "First Contact" or an alien signal being verified experimentally as non terrestrial intelligence (NTI) rather than something natural like a pulsar cluster or other effect the outcome may be some sort of official address by the Pope to accompany or contribute to ones by the President of the United States, Russia and other world powers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.190.163.168 ( talk) 06:37, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
The participation of Jorge Mario Bergloglio in Argentina's "dirty war" and Condor Operation should be more detailed. I'll leave the link to an article by Michel Chossudovski about it: "Who is Pope Francis?" https://www.globalresearch.ca/washingtons-pope-who-is-francis-i-cardinal-jorge-mario-bergoglio-and-argentinas-dirty-war/5326675/amp I'm using a mobile and can't find the signature and other editions button. I'll come back later from a PC. Justana. Justana ( talk) 17:37, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
This article is WP:TOOBIG. I think spinning off a couple of daughter articles might make sense here. I've only taken a quick look, but perhaps we could WP:SPINOFF the the biography portion prior to becoming pope (sections 1, 2, and 3) into an "Early life of Pope Francis" article. The ecumenism section isn't quite as long, but also seems like a good candidate to spin out. -- BrianCUA ( talk) 15:25, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
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The first sentence affirms "...is the head of the Catholic Church and sovereign of the Vatican City State."
This statement isn't part of the divine and apostolic tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, nor of the depositum fidei (Greek paratheke) transferred across generations. On the contrary, till the end of the papal temporal power monarchy's concernings in the internal and foreign policies of the Vatican State lost completely their role and appeal.
After the Second Vatican Council it has been enforced the action and the power of the National Episcopal Conferences in order to have a decisional process more collegial and than anytime before.
The amendment to the Roman Catholic legislation, that can change across the time, must be sourced in the body of the article. It can't be nor become part of the definition of an authority whose power comes only from God and can't proceed by humans, nor by previous popes. Apostles, including St Peter (the first Pope), worshipped God as their unique God and King, as stated in the Apostle's Creed: Jesus as the Lord, seat at the right of God the Father.
Papacy wasn't an inherited charge, reserved to nobles, nor an absolute monarchy. Conversely, it hasn't any constitutional right as intended in the modern democracies. Its different and specified mechanism can't be qualified as a monarchic or republican institution systems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.38.234.68 ( talk) 00:51, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
This section could not be understood by anyone who doesn't already know the story, and should be totally rewritten. The "Dirty War" is never defined in the article. The section also talks about a "dictatorship", a "junta", and "death squads" but gives very little detail. A reader shouldn't have to go to another page to get a basic description. The section begins: "Bergoglio was the subject of allegations regarding the kidnapping of two Jesuit priests during Argentina's Dirty War." This is very vague and ambiguous. He was the subject of allegations during the Dirty War? The word "kidnapping" is later interchanged with "arrest" and "imprisonment", which is confusing. The names of the priests are only mentioned several sentences later. Why? It is briefly suggested that the Navy kidnapped the priests, but no motive or context are given. Then: "He feared for the priests' safety and had tried to change their work prior to their arrest; however, contrary to reports, he never tried to throw them out of the Jesuit order." This sentence does not follow on from the previous one. What are the allegations? (In fact we never find out.) His position at this point, and his relationship to the priests, are not explained. When did he fear for the priests' safety? What does "change their work" mean? What was wrong with their work, in his eyes? Why would he have thrown them out of the Jesuit order? It goes on from there with mangled syntax and elliptical allusions. Then we have a whole list of testimonials which don't seem directly related to the kidnapping.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:24, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
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"On February 2019" = "In February 2019" 2605:E000:9149:8300:34C3:8045:C670:82A9 ( talk) 18:24, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Off Topic Matierial. Talk pages are for improving the encyclopedia, not for expressing personal opinions on a subject.
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Per WP:BLPSTYLE, criticism may only be included in a biography of a living person if it is sourced to a reliable secondary source. All of the sources given in the "Controversies" section of this article are to news reports and columns, which are primary sources by official Wikipedia policy per WP:PRIMARYNEWS. As such, the entire section on "Controversies" in this article needs to be deleted, as does the section on Archbishop Vigano and statements to the effect that Amoris Laetitia is "controversial". PluniaZ ( talk) 18:35, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
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"Bergoglio has said that, as a young seminarian, he had a crush on a girl he met and briefly doubted about continuing the religious career" Citation 26 no longer exists/is a working link. 174.102.80.172 ( talk) 22:49, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
The open letter signed by 19 theologians is in the news. Perhaps there should be an article. ApexUnderground ( talk) 22:42, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Guardian critique of this page
Just passing on the reference- which makes negative comments about our neutrality.-- Clem Rutter ( talk) 09:53, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
“ | A glance at his Wikipedia page reveals one side of the battleline. It has clearly been written primarily by religious conservatives. Its entries seek predominantly to accentuate the religious orthodoxy of the man who was born Jorge Mario Bergoglio. Throughout his papacy, it insists, Pope Francis has been a vocal opponent of abortion. | ” |
-- Երևանցի talk 02:19, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
At the end of the introduction is the line "In addition, various media outlets persist with notions that the Pontiff would officially change Catholic doctrine as part of the reform on the Roman Curia.[32]"
The phrase 'persist with notions' is essentially reporting a dissenting opinion as foolish instead of simply reporting both opinions. I think this line should indicate first the sources that cite the Pontiff as going to change the church, and then cite the article saying he won't. Instead it looks more like a strawman argument and less like a meaningful addition to the article (which already have this information in the preceeding lines). The article cites for that isn't clear on it's own sources so I am not sure how to repair that and wonder if perhaps that line isn't neccessary. Zkbt ( talk) 18:02, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Although I didn't add both points of view, I made it implicit in the wording that I changed below Changed text to create NPOV. "various media outlets persist with notions" changed to "various media outlets indicate, perhaps without basis,'. Zkbt ( talk) 20:23, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Made 2 changes more regarding NPOV. "Changed text again to maintain accurate depiction of source from 'reportedly' to 'supposedly' in sentence 'the Pope has changed the tone on Catholic doctrines and supposedly initiated ecclesiastical reform in the Vatican')"
For more NPOV removed 'seemingly' from 2 sentences 'portray Pope Francis either as a progressive papal reformer or with seemingly liberal, moderate values' and 'seemingly changed tone' added 'reportedly' to the second sentence to maintain connotation Zkbt ( talk) 21:16, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
The sources say that Jerry Zawada was removed from public ministry. They do not say "defrocked" and they do not say "laicized". Please follow the reliable secondary sources when reporting what happened. Elizium23 ( talk) 23:04, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
ishtaku, cus ammak bin zuna harim. LimosaCorel ( talk) 01:51, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
As I have been checking, it seems that he has already been stripped of duties in 2012, still during the reign of Benedict XVI; the only thing thing that has happened now is that the review confirmed the original sentence and added some further things, such as the life of prayer and penance. Seems very little to add to the article, and certainly too much to be in the lead. Cambalachero ( talk) 13:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
In the section 4.2 Non-believers, first paragraph:
"[W]e also sense our closeness to all those men and women who, although not identifying themselves as followers of any religious tradition, are nonetheless searching for truth, goodness and beauty, the truth, goodness and beauty of God. They are our valued allies in the commitment to defending human dignity, in building a peaceful coexistence between peoples and in safeguarding and caring for creation."
The expression "truth, goodness and beauty" is repeated. The reference number [171] should probably be at the end of the sentence and not the beginning of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.64.38.113 ( talk) 15:42, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Done I moved the references to the end of the quotation. However, quotations must be written exactly as they were formulated, even if they include "mistakes" such as redundancies. --
Cambalachero (
talk)
20:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
The introduction to the article focuses too much on his orthodox beliefs. While these may be true, this belongs in another section, as opposed to the introduction, as there are at least three paragraphs in the introduction about this subject alone. These either need to be shortened to a few sentences or moved to another section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100B:B11A:43A7:6DB8:B2A:A146:7239 ( talk) 07:42, 17 March 2014 (UTC) — 2600:100B:B11A:43A7:6DB8:B2A:A146:7239 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 2600:100B:B11A:43A7:6DB8:B2A:A146:7239 (UTC).
I've cleaned up the NPOV of that last paragraph a bit, but I think you're right. It should be in it's own portion of the article. Maybe one marked 'Media Portrayal'? Zkbt ( talk) 21:15, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
I decided to move the notes on media portrayel to 'public image' and removed the word 'officially' from the phrase 'officially change' as it seemed an unneccessary word for the statement. Zkbt ( talk) 15:09, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
The capitalism section ends with this paragraph: "Pope Francis' views were called Marxist by Rush Limbaugh and other conservatives as a result of his critique of capitalism with absolute market autonomy. Pope Francis responded that he considers the Marxist ideology to be wrong, and that his opinions are based on the social doctrine of the church. He said that he has met many Marxists 'who are good people.'" The two first sentences are fine: an attributed political view of Francis' ideas, and his political clarification about it. But do we need the third one? It sounds like something completely trivial, which may be said about just any political idea in the world. Cambalachero ( talk) 16:40, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
“ | Marxist ideology is wrong. But I have met many Marxists in my life who are good people, so I don’t feel offended ... there is nothing in the exhortation that cannot be found in the social doctrine of the church | ” |
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Emiliovillegas24 ( talk) 21:47, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Where would you add this photo? Cambalachero ( talk) 13:38, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Currently reads:
maintained that divorced and re-married Catholics may not receive Holy Communion,[19][20]
I contest that the following reports from a cross section of the UK & US media invalidates the above statement:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/05/pope-francis-catholic-church-divorce-change http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/24/pope-francis-divorced-remarried-communion_n_5204888.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2612242/Pictured-The-divorced-woman-Pope-Francis-told-OK-communion-going-against-centuries-Catholic-teaching.html
The critical word is obviously 'maintained' as this implies a continuation of an established Church doctrine. A better fragment might read:
has called for discussion within the vatican on whether divorced and re-married Catholics may indeed receive Holy Communion.
i am sure there are those with greater skill than I in the phrasing.
much love to the Wikipedia community and I hope that this is of some small value to the cause of sharing information and enlightenment.
Fri 4.02 am UK — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
138.251.245.134 (
talk)
03:02, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Does anyone have the book "On Heaven and Earth", translated to English? This article's section "Interfaith dialogue" has a quotation from that book, but the reference was written when Bergoglio was first appointed Pope, and the translation was made by the author of that reference from the still untranslated book in Spanish. It may be better if someone could confirm that the book translated that part exactly the same way (or change it to the translated book's version if not), and make a reference to the book itself. Cambalachero ( talk) 12:47, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
This article is very big, more than it should be. One of the sections that may be contributing to the size is the "Teachings" one, which is growing into a "What does Francis thinks of..." section. I propose to move most of it to Theology of Pope Francis, and leave here only the topics that the Church may usually be concerned about: Morality, Evangelization, Poverty, Abortion, Women and clericalism, Divorce and Homosexuality. The content of the other sections may be condensed in some of those as needed (for example, some points of "Capitalism" and his clarification that he's not marxist may fit in "Poverty"). Cambalachero ( talk) 18:27, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Add www.popevisit.jo for Jordan, Palestine, and Israel here? Includes wide range, such as 50th Anniversary with Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, Muslim, Jewish, various locations, etc... 99.119.130.240 ( talk) 07:00, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Previously, this article mentioned the historical fact that Cardinal Francis removed Conservative American Cardinal Raymond Burke from the Congregation of Bishops, the committee that chooses new Catholic Bishops. The Wikipedia article on Raymond Burke also omits this fact. This strongly suggests politically motivated suppression of unfavorable information, and should be corrected by some one with access to this page. See the NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/world/europe/pope-replaces-conservative-us-cardinal-on-influential-vatican-committee.html?_r=0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.132.88.244 ( talk) 22:52, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
In (what is presently) the fifth paragraph of the Wikipedia article on Pope Francis, the word "clericized" is used ("women be valued, not clericized.") Being an English-user I'm able to figure out the meaning using the surrounding the text. However, for one whose primary language is not English, deciphering the word might be problematic.
Clericized isn't recognized as an English word. You also cannot find it in Wiktionary.
The article referencing it is in German ("Meisner bestreitet Reformbedarf". Deutschlandfunk. December 24, 2013. Retrieved January 5, 2014), and I scanned the (German) article and did not see the use of the word "clericized" in its body. According to Wiktionary, the word "cleric" has Latin and Greek roots, not Germanic, so I feel this word is being used as an English word -- and there is no such recognized English word.
Should the word be recognized, and added to Wiktionary? Should another word be used? Is the meaning so patent as to render the point moot?
P13w26paul ( talk) 14:05, 5 June 2014 (UTC)P13w26paul
I have added a "not in citation given" template in the end of the "Nonbelievers" subsection of "Relations with religious communities and others", as that is the closest Wiki has to what I am aiming for-specifically, the interpretation of a Scriptural verse, as this statement, "According to Christianity, including Roman Catholicism, no human being can avoid doing wrong," is reffed by Rom. 3:23, "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," and that is contested in interpretation even within Catholicism. Bettering the Wiki ( talk) 06:06, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
He's after excommunicating the Mafia. Can somebody add this? 86.40.20.163 ( talk) 15:48, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
We certainly shouldn't report everything he says or does and I wasn't saying we should but I would have thought that that was a big thing. An entire organisation excommunicated (I'm surprised they weren't excomunicated far sooner but anyway). 86.40.139.31 ( talk) 21:07, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Old Text Under Heading "Early Issues," 3rd paragraph:
On the first Holy Thursday following his election, Francis washed and kissed the feet of 12 juvenile offenders, ages 14–21, at Rome's Casal del Marmo detention facility, telling them the ritual of foot washing is a sign that he is at their service.[185] He told them to "Help one another. This is what Jesus teaches us".[185] According to church experts, this was the first time that a pope has included women in this ritual (there were 2 women and 10 men).[185] Canon lawyer Edward Peters noted that this was a break with canon law, although not with any "divine directive".[185] The twelve included two Muslims,[186] including one of the two women.[187] Before leaving, the pope told the detainees, "Do not let yourselves be robbed of hope".[186]
Suggested Insertion after "Canon lawyer Edward Peters noted that this was a break with canon law, although not with any "divine directive".[185]":
It is arguable, under canon law provisions on customs, that the Pope's action constituted approval for including women in the ritual.[186]
Source to be cited as Footnote 186: Sobrino, Oswald. "Pope & Foot Washing of Females". Logos Blog. Retrieved 25 April 2013. ˜˜˜˜
I think that part needs some improvement. From all accounts, Pope Francis really fought Liberation Theology. Leonardo Boff can pretend otherwise, because of his vision of a political church, but this is whats true: "As the article points out, Pope Francis was all too familiar with liberation theology when he was the Jesuit provincial in Argentina, and opposed it “even when this stand left him isolated among the Jesuits.” Significantly, he dismissed it in a preface he wrote for a book on the future of Latin America by his friend, the Uruguayan Guzman Carriquiry Lecour, when he wrote, “After the collapse of “real socialism” (that is, Marxism), these currents of thought (liberation theology) were plunged into confusion. Incapable of either radical reformulation or new creativity, they survived by inertia, even if there are still some today who, anachronistically, would like to propose it again.”" [1]. Mistico ( talk) 13:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
There are many sources that can be used for Pope Francis opposition to Liberation Theology. This one for example: "Jesuit Archbishop recounts "strong stand" of Pope Francis against Liberation Theology and Marxism", published on LifeSiteNews, on 18 March 2013: [2] Mistico ( talk) 14:10, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
It seems we now have two good quality images of Pope Francis from his trip to Korea available to us. The one currently being used is Francis sticking his thumbs up to the crowd. Its a nice picture but I feel the second picture of him smiling and waving to the crowd would be more suitable for the info-box. Tomh903 ( talk) 10:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi I don't know about other countries but here, in Poland, some media have picked up the Pope's remark made to the journalists during a flight a short while ago in which the Pope hinted that he would in a few years be no longer alive or that he may resign. I haven't investigated the matter any further so I can't give any specifics. Has any of you heard something more about that? 79.186.31.29 ( talk) 09:09, 30 August 2014 (UTC)Piotrek
Why isn't there any information in the article about the pope's lack of regnal number? Cold as Gray ( talk) 11:38, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
The best-known examples of NOT using "I" (i.e., "the first") are from the British monarchy. John, Anne, and Victoria have no numbers because no other British monarchs have used those names. The first Elizabeth was also in that situation until retroactively being given the "I" when another Elizabeth came to the throne in 1952.
This article claims that Pope Francis understands Ukrainian. According to the two sources given: there is no mention of this in the BBC article, and while the Euronews article (cached version) claims that Francis "speaks the language", the only evidence seems to be that he once said "Glory to our Lord Jesus Christ" in Ukrainian. Is this sufficient to say that he understands Ukrainian? Jinjibïar ( talk) 21:54, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
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OK on the following except for the order of the remarks:
>Bergoglio was named Auxiliary Bishop of Buenos Aires in 1992 and ordained on 27 June 1992 as Titular Bishop of Auca,[75] with Cardinal Antonio Quarracino, >Archbishop of Buenos Aires, serving as principal consecrator.[56] On 3 June 1997, Bergoglio was appointed Coadjutor Archbishop of Buenos Aires with right of >automatic succession.[57] He chose as his episcopal motto Miserando atque eligendo.[76] It is drawn from Saint Bede's homily on Matthew 9:9–13: "because he >saw him through the eyes of mercy and chose him".[77]
Assuming he chose his episcopal motto when he initially became a bishop (the appointment as auxiliary bishop of Buenos Aires), could you take the "On June 3, 1997, ..." sentence and put it at start of next paragraph? The next paragraph currently starts with Bergoglio succeeding to the see of Buenos Aires.
128.63.16.20 ( talk) 20:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I still maintain that the proper terminology here should be "Divorced Catholics who have attempted remarriage", because according to the Catholic Church, it is impossible to "remarry" when there is a prior bond. Unfortunately, many so-called WP:RS use the problematic phrasing "Catholics who re-marry following divorce" or worse, "Divorced and remarried Catholics". So until we get some more-reliable sources, those that don't misreport matters of internal Church Law, I suppose we will have to labor under the inaccurate wordings. Elizium23 ( talk) 16:27, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 03:55, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
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Emilio F. Mignone, Argentina's most well known human rights leader at the time of his death [1] accused Pope francis's of giving the military dictatorship the green light to kidnap to Jesuit priests in his book Witness to the Truth: The complicity of Church and Dictatorship in Argentina. This was the first book published investigating Jorge Bergoglio's complicity in crimes against humanity committed by the last military dictatorship. Argentinaeditor2 ( talk) 10:53, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
References
Should these quotes be added to the article? ClaeszXIV ( talk) 15:36, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
<ref>
tag has too many names (see the
help page).<ref>
tag has too many names (see the
help page).<ref>
tag has too many names (see the
help page).No matter if they are used or not, references are to back up text and is a way of finding new material as well. References should only be removed if are unreliable. I don't want to edit war in this one, but I highly disagre on removing valid references. This has now been removed twice with no valid reason, so I put it here. <ref>The precise number of popes has been a matter for scholarly debate for centuries. John A. Hardon's ''Modern Catholic Dictionary'' (1980) lists [[Pope John Paul II|John Paul II]] (1978–2005) as the 264th pope, making Francis the 266th.</ref> Hafspajen ( talk) 16:48, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't think that this article can be considered a relieable reference. The article Tikkun (magazine) mentions that it has been criticized for its anti-semitic comments, and the article itself commits many inacuracies and falacies. For example, it takes as true the urban myth of the photos of Bergoglio and Videla. It criticizes the links of Bergoglio with some neo-fascist movement, links that only exist in their minds. It criticizes that Bergoglio had handed Jalics and Yorio to the death squads, a claim that has long been refuted. It criticizes that Bergoglio had not risked his life by "standing up" against the military junta and suggests that means he supported them; an opinion, yes, but a weird and unreasonable opinion (and an opinion that lacks information: unlike Oscar Romero, Bergoglio was no archbishop back then, and had no noteworthy political or religious autorithy, so his resistance would have been futile and unnoticed). I think we should remove it. Cambalachero ( talk) 00:12, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
A part of the section on personal life says "He attended the technical secondary school Escuela Nacional de Educación Técnica N° 27 Hipólito Yrigoyen[48] and graduated with a chemical technician's diploma", with a link to Hipólito Yrigoyen. That's not the purpose of links. Hipólito Yrigoyen was a president of Argentina, but that sentence is not talking about him. It talks about a school named after him. The correct link would be " Hipólito Yrigoyen (school)", but the school is not noteworthy to have a specific article. So, "Hipólito Yrigoyen" should remain unlinked in that sentence. Cambalachero ( talk) 13:58, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
A sentence in the
The article cited at #278 does not lend support for the statement that either Vatican conservatives or US evangelicals have brought up "the history of the relationship between religion and science." While an evangelical spokesperson does say that "The Catholic church ... has been misled on the science," that refers only to being misled at the present time about climate change. It does not say "the church has been misled on the science again" nor "the church has been historically misled on science."
Furthermore, it would make no sense for opponents of climate change to cite the presumably "troubled" history of Christianity and science as one of their reasons. This charge is usually made by secular critics of religion who believe that religion's meddling in science is bad for science. In other words, people who value science don't want the Church discouraging scientific process. The argument by climate change deniers is that the science is bad and would mislead the Catholic church.
So either a source for this specific point needs to be included in the citation, or the sentence should be revised to read:
If a reference to the relationship between religion and science is important, it should be included elsewhere in the article. Ileanadu ( talk) 15:19, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
The commonly used abbreviation PP actually stands for "Pastor pastorum" (shepherd of shepherds) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.171.120 ( talk) 21:59, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Timeline of Pope Francis's papacy? -- Lapilluminati ( talk) 18:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Pope Francis lauds his predecessor's decision of resignation as courageous and says that if needed he will do the same if he feels he is no longer equal to the job. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-31875507 Noteworthy? 79.186.26.75 ( talk) 10:32, 15 March 2015 (UTC)PIotrek
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50.29.149.222 ( talk) 13:13, 7 April 2015 (UTC) Pope Francis is a "public figure" NOT a "politician"! Specifically he is the Head of the Roman Catholic Church. Please edit his "category" on Facebook and Wikipedia ASAP. Thank you.
There is a paragraph in the "Kirchners" section that mentions Bergoglio opposing abortion, and the answers of "the government". I tried to make it more precise, and find who said that. The article cited is equaly vague, and also cites just the "Kirchner administration", but at least they provide a quote, and say that they accused him of "ideological malfeasance". So, I searched for those words. I found [www.lanacion.com.ar/949614-acusan-de-malversacion-ideologica-a-bergoglio here] that it was Guillermo Guerin, a politician of the Buenos Aires city, ruled by an opposing party. So, as it is not the relation of Bergoglio with the Kirchners, and his opinion about abortion is already detailed elsewhere, I will delete the paragraph. Cambalachero ( talk) 02:09, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
That seems to be the implicit message in much of the disconnected political trivia in the lead paragraphs of this article. The information about Francis' positions on church authority, homosexuality, abortion, sexual abuse, etc., etc. belong under the Teachings section, and in fact the information is already there.
Remember, the lead should summarize the whole article, not serve as cover for launching debating points at readers. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 18:43, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Does Pope Francis has a Masters degree? The wiki bio doesn't seem to say that. Tom Ruen ( talk) 05:10, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Sergio Rubin wrote the biography " El jesuita" ( Spanish: The jesuit), and it was the only biography of Bergoglio written before he became pope. For obvious reasons, I'm sure that it wasn't published outside of Argentina at the time (as a mere archbishop, hardly anyone abroad even knew about him). But, what about later? Are there editions in English of that book? Should the article about the book be renamed? Cambalachero ( talk) 16:54, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Acording to this trustful source ( http://www.cemla.com/busqueda.php#)
BERGOGLIO, MARIO 21 S CONTADOR CATOLICA ITALIANA GIULIO CESARE GENOVA 01/02/1929 - BUENOS AIRES Born in ALESSANDRIA Pope Francis is listed as the "third consecutive non-Italian pope to hold the office". Technically Pope Francis is Italian. He is the son of Italian immigrants and therefore racially and ethnically Italian. In truth he is the first Italian-American pope. Thank you. Tom Serino, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.231.181 ( talk) 13:29, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
I have written a new lead at User:Cambalachero/Francis, trying to make a summary of details from most sections, and removing some stuff that was not detailed elsewhere, or unneeded puffery. Do you think it is a good replacement, or do you think we should fix something from it? Cambalachero ( talk) 17:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
"Bergoglio often rose hours before his classmates to serve Mass for Czmil", a Ukrainian priest. The linked source says "Today’s Pope ... awoke many hours before his classmates to concelebrate at our Divine Liturgy with Fr. Stepan." I realize it was rewritten so as not to be a simple quotation, and to correct "concelebrate" (as he was a schoolboy and not yet a priest) but the change from "Divine Liturgy" to "Mass" is questionable. Does this mean that the person who changed the source knows that Fr Czmil did not celebrate the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy and did indeed celebrate the Roman Mass? In which case the Patriarch is wrong in his statement. If Fr Czmil did in fact celebrate the Divine Liturgy then the word "Mass" should be changed. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 00:35, 19 June 2015 (UTC) not notable at all. I've never heard of Fr. Czmil and this piece of information, though maybe interesting to a few, is absolutely irrelevant and not notable at all to Pope Francis. Remove it. 66.67.32.161 ( talk) 22:05, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
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There is a serious error in the first paragraph of this article. The final statement in the first paragraph states that Pope Francis holds his office "ex officio," as the Bishop of Rome, and that the title of pope is simply ancient, and implies it is outdated. There is no reference for what is clearly a brash and anti-Catholic claim here. Please remove the term "ex-officio," and "ancient," as these implications are tantamount to graffiti. 70.196.76.34 ( talk) 03:29, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
"As pope, Francis was Grand Master of the following orders:" - - surely this should be in the present tense. 92.90.26.121 ( talk) 13:06, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
I know it is not well perceived - or to some simply not imaginable (is Kwawikagami editing here, too?) - over here when somebody speaks various (foreign) languages fluently and English isn't one of them. Still, for veritae sake: He does not only "understand some" German, but he wrote his PhD thesis in it, in Germany. So please, even if it gives you a hard time, put "understands some" together with English in the last place. At the end of the day when you've overcame your fear, you'll feel fine. 84.184.114.230 ( talk) 14:45, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
His book deserves mention in this article, if not its own article. SegataSanshiro1 ( talk) 23:45, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Question -- I am not sure what "unbridled capitalism" means in the context of this piece (in my view that term would not apply to any politico-economic system that has existed in any developed economy within at least the last seventy-five years); from what I read in the media, which is generally quite friendly to socialism where I live, Francis' views are considerably left of that; I would be grateful for advice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:5B0:2924:A2F0:17E:B946:C1ED:8734 ( talk) 13:48, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
One more question; what, exactly, is "social debt"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.44.193.104 ( talk) 14:16, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
One small correction should be made at the outset of the article. He is the Sovereign of the Vatican City STATE, not "Vatican City." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.105.246.107 ( talk) 17:03, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Would the recent controversy about his meeting with Kim Davis be important enough for inclusion in this article? It has enough sources and has seen excessive coverage. Supertanno ( talk) 13:15, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
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Please consider adding Pope Francis' (native) Spanish papal name - i.e. Francisco
Aneditorthathelps ( talk) 01:37, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Jfhutson ( talk · contribs) 04:15, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
I can see that much has been done to address the issues from the last review. I'm afraid, however, that there are also things that were not addressed, such as short paragraphs, dead links, and sources which the last reviewer did not see as reliable. I'm also seeing some neutrality issues, which were not brought up at the last review. Also, the article is very long, but I can't say it's very focused. For example, the Fernando de la Rúa section tells me very little about Francis, and gives a confusing, detailed account.
This is only my second review, so I'm going to give it some time before I decide. Please feel free to discuss, and I'm happy to request a second opinion if you disagree with my comments. -- JFH ( talk) 04:15, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
This article has failed its Good article nomination. This is how the article, as of November 27, 2015, compares against the six good article criteria:
When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to have it reassessed. Thank you for your work so far.— JFH ( talk) 21:05, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
For a better insight into this man's soul, read http://www.globalresearch.ca/washingtons-pope-who-is-francis-i-cardinal-jorge-mario-bergoglio-and-argentinas-dirty-war/5326675
Excerpt from the link above:
The Secret Memorandum
The military government acknowledged in a Secret Memo (see below) that Father Bergoglio had accused the two priests of having established contacts with the guerilleros, and for having disobeyed the orders of the Church hierarchy (Conflictos de obedecencia). It also stated that the Jesuit order had demanded the dissolution of their group and that they had refused to abide by Bergoglio’s instructions.The document acknowledges that the “arrest” of the two priests, who were taken to the torture and detention center at the Naval School of Mechanics, ESMA, was based on information transmitted by Father Bergoglio to the military authorities. (signed by Mr. Orcoyen)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.12.17 ( talk) 11:32, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Consecration of Russia says:
This would have been pretty big deal if Francis did this, but there's no mention of it here. Is it true? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 05:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Francis told Slovenian crowds to 'defend family values', meaning curbing families of same-sex couples-- 146.198.189.144 ( talk) 20:08, 20 December 2015 (UTC) Link: http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/breaking_pope_s_plea_to_ban_same_sex_marriage_convinces_catholics_in_Slovenia -- 146.198.189.144 ( talk) 20:31, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
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Pope_Francis#Public_image mentions what Francis said and Donald's response. While I agree that Trump's rebuttal is the most notable and should be mentioned first, I wonder if perhaps we should mention some other ones from notable people who opt to comment on this? While the other politicians appear to be staying out of it, some notable people have weighed in a bit. For example Lew Rockwell draws a comparison to the papal saint named Pope Leo IV here:
I guess the saint was not only against open borders, he was a racist, a xenophobe, an Islamophobe, a discriminator, and an opponent of diversity.
{{
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: Check |archive-url=
value (
help); Unknown parameter |dead-url=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)I'm not sure how citeable this is, is anyone going to dispute that this is about Francis+Trump even though it doesn't specifically say so, considering the timing?
Also wondering if we should point to earlier in the article to where Francis is shown praying at the Western Wall, perhaps by inserting an anchor to that part. Not sure how to phrase it though. 184.145.18.50 ( talk) 21:09, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
On 27 November, Francis released the album Wake Up!. I'm not quite sure where to fit this into the rest of the article, and how much significance we should give it. For now, I figured creating a discography section was better than nothing. It isn't referred to anywhere else in the article, however, so if anyone could tell me how things like this are typically handled and help incorporate it in a meaningful way, it would be very nice. Kranix ( talk | contribs) 01:28, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
This album NEEDS to be mentioned in his article. It's as important as it's books, texts, etc.-- MisterSanderson ( talk) 05:21, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
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We would like to add the following copy to the Pope Francis page. Sacred Heart University has named a building in his honor. The copy is
"Sacred Heart University has names its sophomore residence hall in honor of Pope Francis. Opening in Fall 2016, it will be called Jorge Bergoglio Hall.
Here is the link to the source: http://www.sacredheart.edu/campuslife/lifeonoffcampus/housingandresidentiallife/residentialhalls/jorgebergogliohall/
Here is the link to the Sacred Heart University Wikipedia Page: /info/en/?search=Sacred_Heart_University
Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by SacredwikiHeart ( talk • contribs)
I think the "Falkland Islands" section is pointless and should be removed. So far, the Pope has stayed apart from the sovereignty conflict, and everything else is just about people trying, in vain, to involve him with that issue. The only thing to report is that there is nothing to report. The hierarchy of the religious organizations of the Falkland Islands belongs in the respective article.
As for the quoted comment, it is also trivial for the topic at hand. First, that comment was made when he was archbishop, and wasn't still required to stay neutral on those conflicts. And, even taking that in consideration, his comment is only tangentially adressing the sovereignty disputed. He did not say that from out of the blue, he said it during a mass for the anniversay of the war (so, it was basically mandatory to talk about it), and he did not focus on the political dispute, but on the deceased soldiers. Note as well that this passed as completely trivial and unnoticed on its day. It was only mentioned once he was appointed Pope, and the British digged into the archives to find any case when he had made reference to the dispute; this was the best they could find. And it proved to be a pointless discovery: no matter what does Francis the man think about the dispute, Francis the pope stayed neutral and did not do anything in relation to it. Cambalachero ( talk) 22:08, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
See it here - [9]. This info should be added in the Homosexuality section. M.Karelin ( talk) 15:53, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
Is this image of His Holiness Pope Francis, pictured in Mexico (February 2016), a good image to replace the current one since the current is 2015 and this proposal image is in 2016. Just wondering. -- TDKR Chicago 101 ( talk) 03:11, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
I think that the intro to Pope Francis might be more accurate if it said he was the head of the Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church, or Latin Rite, is only one (though its the largest) part the the universal Catholic Church which even the Wikipedia page that the hyperlink redirects to states: The Latin Church, the Eastern Catholic Churches and institutes such as the Jesuits, mendicant orders and enclosed monastic orders, reflect a variety of theological emphases in the Church"
Thoughts? Keefete ( talk) 13:30, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
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Hello, may I edit this biography about Pope Francis, like the biblical aspect of it. I mean no harm. Thanks.
Christ Knight 777
Christ Knight 777 ( talk) 19:07, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Did the pontiff really chose his papal name after St. Francis of Assisi? There are three saints venerated in Catholicism by the name of Francis, the other two namely St. Francis Xavier and St. Francis de Sales. This is definitely a gray area. Jebbiex ( talk) 03:41, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
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I would like to request the removal of the following sentence under the Lutheran (ecumenical relations) subheader:
Cardinal Bergoglio frequently recommended his personal friend Manuel Acuña, a Lutheran pastor, to perform exorcisms on individuals in whom there were signs of demonic possession.[136]
Reason: The source for this statement, see 136, is from a non-credible source featuring sensationalist news such as alien encounters. Please kindly remove this sentence unless a proper scientific/non-fiction source can be found.
2601:246:A01:7D0:E42A:15A6:11A3:61B0 ( talk) 01:45, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
That's totally wrong. In all of the above Francis holds liberal views. So please change or delete that phrase! I can't for the page is semi-protected. -- 212.186.14.29 ( talk) 20:40, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Francis may be considered "liberal" because he is less strict over the protocols, and because he give more priority to the issues related with poverty than to those listed (he talks about it more often). But that doesn't mean he changed the views, just that he has other priorities. It is a common misunderstanding to think that he has different views over those issues, and Wikipedia must report accurate information. Cambalachero ( talk) 12:59, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
What Cambalachero said. Pope Francis has undeniably given greater emphasis to certain social issue or points of doctrine than his predecessors. But that is his role. He is not a bookkeeper of dead laws. He is a living shepherd of a developing tradition. Thus, he is free, and in fact he is required, to emphasize whatever issues he sees as most pressing during his pontificate. But just because he emphasizes issues that might, in some countries, be associated with a "liberal" political platform, it does not follow that he has broken from tradition in any way. Nor does this mean that he is trying to make a "conservative" church into a "liberal" one. At any rate, if you believe he has gone further and has actually contradicted specific parts of tradition, then it should be very easy to provide credible sources to show how and when he did this. Lordfarquaad ( talk) 18:29, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the introduction cites no sources and is pretty pro-Francis e.g. "Throughout his public life, Pope Francis has been noted for his humility", "He is credited with having a humble, less formal approach to the papacy than his predecessors" and other relatively insignificant details such as how he wears silver instead of gold. I think the whole paragraph is unsuitable; we don't want a summary written with the purpose of presenting Francis as a good guy. Frexit ( talk) 09:36, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
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Please change "title Holy Land: Vandal tries to set fire to Dormition Abbey" to "title=Holy Land: Vandal tries to set fire to Dormition Abbey" because this citation lacks a recognized title and title paremeter, which this seems to be.
47.148.79.80 ( talk) 19:06, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
The article reads like a hagiography. Sure we can do better then that and it should be easy to find sources for substantial criticism given the controversial history of Mario Bergoglio. -- 41.247.242.39 ( talk) 14:42, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
I added under the international diplomacy section that Pope Francis demanded the resignation of Matthew Festing, the Prince and Grand Master of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta. Feel free to add any more information. -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 09:16, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
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Chiara200 ( talk) 14:16, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
This sentence is false: "as well as current de facto Prince and Grand Master of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta," because: https://www.orderofmalta.int/government/grand-commander/ From 28 January 2017, following the resignation of Fra’ Matthew Festing from the office of Grand Master, the Sovereign Order of Malta is governed by a Lieutenant ad interim in the person of H.E. Fra’ Ludwig Hoffmann von Rumerstein. He will stay in office until the election of a new Grand Master. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chiara200 ( talk • contribs) 11:32, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
Does this headline warrants its own place in the page? Blue sphere 04:51, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
This is important to be in the entry because it shows that Pope Francis reaffirms the Catholic Church doctrine on this issue: "Francis reaffirmed the Catholic doctrine that politicians who support legal abortion and euthanasia shouldn't take communion, in the Aparecida Document, in March 2013: "We hope that legislators [and] heads of government... will defend and protect [the dignity of human life] from the abominable crimes of abortion and euthanasia; that is their responsibility... We must adhere to "eucharistic coherence", that is, be conscious that they cannot receive Holy Communion and at the same time act with deeds or words against the commandments, particularly when abortion, euthanasia, and other grave crimes against life and family are encouraged. This responsibility weighs particularly over legislators, heads of governments, and health professionals." [1] Mistico ( talk) 02:52, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I found out the Aparecida Document direct source. There is no reason to delete this reference again: [10] Mistico ( talk) 19:11, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
I was surprised to find this article listed as a class C article and propose it be raised to class B status. It seems to meet the general criteria that "The article is mostly complete and without major problems, but requires some further work to reach good article standards."
A bit of history:
Since it is now extensively sourced and has been repeatedly considered for, but not granted, Good Article status, it seems that it meets class B status as defined above. -- SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 00:03, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Under the heading "Role in international diplomacy", it states that he gave 13 speeches in Israel but the source states the speeches were split across Israel, Jordan, and Palestine. Please correct this error. Thanks, 2001:1970:5DE1:6A00:9031:4303:45A:33B9 ( talk) 22:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
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Francis's openings to "modernity on sexual morality, communion for remarried Catholics and friendly relations with other religions have opened a gulf between progressives and traditionalists." to They claim that Francis is open "modernity on sexual morality, communion for remarried Catholics and friendly relations with other religions have opened a gulf between progressives and traditionalists."
Because Pope Francis is not open to modernity on Sexual Morality 123.231.124.180 ( talk) 08:29, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
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In the criticism section it says "opennings to sexual modernity and communion for divorced and remarried" I think this should be gotten rid of because Amoris Laetita hasnt been clarified yet and Francis isnt open to "sexual modernity" Ilikerabbits! ( talk) 14:26, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
This article is in the category "Critics of Islamophobia", but it seems it is sourced only to an Arabian newspaper.
I am trying to understand if a source is needed to categorize it also for this and all other articles.
There are many articles where the article is categorized and it is sourced to a published article.
User:Cpt.a.haddock is removing this category from several pages even though it is sourced to published article. He says it is not enough for categorization.
See his contributions: /info/en/?search=Special:Contributions/Cpt.a.haddock
For example, at Vinay Lal the categorization is sourced to this article: Vinay Lal: Implications of American Islamophobia, Economic and Political Weekly, Vol. 50, Issue No. 51, 19 Dec, 2015. But even then, the category was removed by User Cpt.a.Haddock.
The question is, is this enough for categorization? If this source is not good enough, I do not understand how this article is categorized in the category without adequate sources. -- Sebastianmaali ( talk) 14:23, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
Why was Jon O'Brien's quote of Francis's decision to forgive post-abortive women disappeared from the Abortion section? We musn't be selecting only the information favourable to an editor's point of view, as per WP:CHERRYPICK. SLIGHTLY mad 06:14, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Where did the word "presbytariate" come from (section heading for pre-papal years 1958–2013)? Should this be "presbyterate"? Wiktionary has an entry for the word "presbyterate" ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/presbyterate) but not "presbyteriate". The new word appears to have been introduced quite recently, and similarly the article on Pope John Paul II has a section headed "Presbyteriate", which has replaced the word "Priesthood". - BobKilcoyne ( talk) 10:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
I've amended this word in both articles - BobKilcoyne ( talk) 05:41, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
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There has been people named pope francis since 1752( Mohamed Naufan ( talk) 12:57, 1 December 2017 (UTC))
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At the very beginning, you can add "French: François" That's all, thanks! Shaaay ( talk) 21:32, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
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change "Catholic Church" to "Roman Catholic Church" Researchatbriancraigmcdaniel ( talk) 19:01, 22 January 2018 (UTC) Had intended to change "Catholic Church" to "Roman Catholic Church" to be more precise and for continuity with articles on earlier Roman Catholic Popes (their are other Popes in the Christian world)
References
Spintendo ᔦᔭ 12:20, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Therefore his episcopate didn't end in 2013 187.3.146.118 ( talk) 15:17, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
From the article: "The pope canonized Joseph Vaz on his visit to Sri Lanka on 14 January 2015 and canonized a further four saints on the following 17 May; he canonized Junípero Serra on 23 September while visiting the United States and then canonized four saints on 18 October including the first married couple to be named as saints."
Seems incorrect as a result of bad wording, and may mislead readers. Louis Martin and Marie-Azélie Guérin were not the first married couple to be canonized, but were the first married couple to be canonized as a couple. There are many other of married couples that were declared saints before them, pre-congregational and officially- Mary and Joseph spring to mind. Should be "including the first couple to be named as saints together" or similar, to avoid confusion and for the sake of accuracy.
222.155.167.180 ( talk) 07:09, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
@ Hydrargyrum Regards this edit; the Vatican most certainly did not categorically deny the story. They issued one of their famous non-denial denials. Nowhere did they say the Pope did not say what he is alleged to have said. Rather they are saying there was no "official" interview and the quote may not be entirely accurate. If the Pope had been misquoted on something like this the Holy See would have come right out and said so in no uncertain terms. This story is being widely reported in both the Catholic and mainstream press. It is certainly fair to note the Holy See's milquetoast response as a qualifier. But as far as I am aware we go with what reliable sources are saying and neither the Pope nor Sr. Scalfari have issued any denials or retractions. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 21:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
If we're going to protect a page against editing--clearly a politically motivated decision--let us at least ensure that the page reads as if written by an adult possessing adequate mastery of English. Consider this sentence:
"He opposes consumerism, overdevelopment, and supports taking action on . . ."
CLEARLY, he opposes "consumerism AND [in place of comma] overdevelopment [no following comma] and supports taking action on . . ."
If we can't understand the very rudiments of English grammar and properly place commas, we have no business edit-protecting anything. This arrogance on the part of such junior practitioners is appalling.
2601:589:4B00:7AB:5494:E0A5:18B8:9EEE ( talk) 15:13, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Added: Updated /info/en/?search=Pope_Francis#Year_of_Mercy. Pope Francis established the World Day of the Poor in his Apostolic Letter, Misericordia et Misera, issued on 20 November 2016 to celebrate the end of the Extraordinary Jubilee of Mercy. FullfillC21 ( talk) 13:07, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I've noticed at the page's start someone edited the pope's birth name to include his mother's maiden name. I don't think that part counts as the pope's birth name and I wanted to check if that was the case or if this needs to be reverted. 14.202.222.175 ( talk) 19:17, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Reliable sources were cited, it is controversial, it is about Francis. Why was my edition undone? DizzinessOfFreedom ( talk) 03:30, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
This is never what was claimed in the article in the first place. But that a pontifical medal was given to a pro abortion activist, not that it was given to her by this very fact. As I already said, I cited another source, namely, Catholic News Agency. DizzinessOfFreedom ( talk) 03:51, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Below is the text from this conversation which took place on my talk page regarding these edits:
I want to know the reason why you removed my edit. DizzinessOfFreedom ( talk) 03:32, 23 August 2018 (UTC) :As I said, Breitbart is not recognized as a credible source. It also gave incorrect information. She was awarded a Pontifical Knighthood, being made a Dame Commander of the Order of St. Gregory and the award was not given to her in connection to her work for women's reproductive rights, but for her work as a government official. She happens to support abortion, which may have caused controversy, but that is not the same claim. If there is/was controversy regarding her award, this needs to be cited with credible references that are not from a political opinion and commentary website. As far as categories such as "Liberal theologians" and "Anti-Modernism" goes, those are orphaned categories. They are not connected to any other categories on Wikipedia. Furthermore, they are too vague. What is "liberal"? It has different definitions depending on the context, and who decides what a "liberal" theologian is? "Anti-Modernism" has the same issue. It's too vague. Is it Anti-Modernism in the Catholic Church? In Christianity? In visual art? In architecture? It's not specific and does not improve the quality of the article. -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 03:39, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
It did not say in the article that the medal was given to her because she was an a pro abortion activist, but that it was given to a pro abortion activist. I cited another source. DizzinessOfFreedom ( talk) 03:45, 23 August 2018 (UTC) : Lilianne Ploumen is a Dutch politician who has done activism work regarding women's reproductive health. She is not notable because of her activism. There was no mention as to why the award was given or who she is, other than a "abortion rights activist". This implies bias. Catholic News Agency is a reliable source, but you didn't use the article ( [11]) to explain the backstory or the reason for the award, which would clarify the incident's supposed controversy: "Responding to requests of clarification, Paloma Garcia-Ovejero, deputy director of the Holy See Press Office, said that “the honorific of the St. Gregory the Great Pontifical Order that Liliane Ploumen, then Minister for Development received in June 2017, during the visit of the Dutch Royals to the Holy Father, is part of the diplomatic praxis of the exchange of decorations among delegations during official visits between heads of state and government to the Vatican.”
It explains why/how such honours are given and that they are not endorsements and have no connection to any activism or pro-abortion policies Ploumen was behind. -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 03:49, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
The source of Bishop Fellay calling him a modernist is in the article. It wasnt in the edition summary. You need to look first before making such claims. DizzinessOfFreedom ( talk) 03:36, 23 August 2018 (UTC) :See above comment. -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 03:39, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
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Willthacheerleader18 (
talk)
03:56, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
CNSNews
[12], according to the website she is very noted for her activism, and has launched a pro abortion fund called She Decides, in which it was raised 300 million us dollars. She is noted for her activism, and this is exactly the reason for the controversy. Your personal opinion does not count for anything.
DizzinessOfFreedom (
talk)
04:07, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Is this covered in the article? I wrote the content below for Curial response to Catholic sexual abuse cases. Is Francis' position on the abuse of children by clergy - and the cover-ups - included in this article about the Pope? If so, I did not find it.
In August 2018, Pope Francis apologized in a 2,000 word letter after the release of a grand jury report confirming that over 1,000 children were sexually abused by "predator priests" in Pennsylvania for decades, often covered up by the Church. "Pope apologizes for priest sex abuse scandal with 'sorrow and shame'". NBC News. New York. 2018-08-20. Retrieved 2018-08-21.
"With shame and repentance, we acknowledge as an ecclesial community that we were not where we should have been, that we did not act in a timely manner, realizing the magnitude and the gravity of the damage done to so many lives ... We showed no care for the little ones; we abandoned them ... The heart-wrenching pain of these victims, which cries out to heaven, was long ignored, kept quiet or silenced."
The Pope said the church was developing a "zero tolerance" policy on abuse (which he called "crimes") and cover-ups. Vatican spokesman Greg Burke emphasized that the letter was not about incidents in a specific geographic area. "Pope Francis has written to the people of God and that means everyone." "Pope apologizes for priest sex abuse scandal with 'sorrow and shame'". CNN. Atlanta. 2018-08-20. Retrieved 2018-08-21. Peter K Burian ( talk) 20:03, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Hi, though it is at present unknown if Pope Francis has any official opinion on alien life the generally accepted position of the Catholic Church does not discount the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in the visible Universe. In the event of "First Contact" or an alien signal being verified experimentally as non terrestrial intelligence (NTI) rather than something natural like a pulsar cluster or other effect the outcome may be some sort of official address by the Pope to accompany or contribute to ones by the President of the United States, Russia and other world powers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.190.163.168 ( talk) 06:37, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
The participation of Jorge Mario Bergloglio in Argentina's "dirty war" and Condor Operation should be more detailed. I'll leave the link to an article by Michel Chossudovski about it: "Who is Pope Francis?" https://www.globalresearch.ca/washingtons-pope-who-is-francis-i-cardinal-jorge-mario-bergoglio-and-argentinas-dirty-war/5326675/amp I'm using a mobile and can't find the signature and other editions button. I'll come back later from a PC. Justana. Justana ( talk) 17:37, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
This article is WP:TOOBIG. I think spinning off a couple of daughter articles might make sense here. I've only taken a quick look, but perhaps we could WP:SPINOFF the the biography portion prior to becoming pope (sections 1, 2, and 3) into an "Early life of Pope Francis" article. The ecumenism section isn't quite as long, but also seems like a good candidate to spin out. -- BrianCUA ( talk) 15:25, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
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The first sentence affirms "...is the head of the Catholic Church and sovereign of the Vatican City State."
This statement isn't part of the divine and apostolic tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, nor of the depositum fidei (Greek paratheke) transferred across generations. On the contrary, till the end of the papal temporal power monarchy's concernings in the internal and foreign policies of the Vatican State lost completely their role and appeal.
After the Second Vatican Council it has been enforced the action and the power of the National Episcopal Conferences in order to have a decisional process more collegial and than anytime before.
The amendment to the Roman Catholic legislation, that can change across the time, must be sourced in the body of the article. It can't be nor become part of the definition of an authority whose power comes only from God and can't proceed by humans, nor by previous popes. Apostles, including St Peter (the first Pope), worshipped God as their unique God and King, as stated in the Apostle's Creed: Jesus as the Lord, seat at the right of God the Father.
Papacy wasn't an inherited charge, reserved to nobles, nor an absolute monarchy. Conversely, it hasn't any constitutional right as intended in the modern democracies. Its different and specified mechanism can't be qualified as a monarchic or republican institution systems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.38.234.68 ( talk) 00:51, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
This section could not be understood by anyone who doesn't already know the story, and should be totally rewritten. The "Dirty War" is never defined in the article. The section also talks about a "dictatorship", a "junta", and "death squads" but gives very little detail. A reader shouldn't have to go to another page to get a basic description. The section begins: "Bergoglio was the subject of allegations regarding the kidnapping of two Jesuit priests during Argentina's Dirty War." This is very vague and ambiguous. He was the subject of allegations during the Dirty War? The word "kidnapping" is later interchanged with "arrest" and "imprisonment", which is confusing. The names of the priests are only mentioned several sentences later. Why? It is briefly suggested that the Navy kidnapped the priests, but no motive or context are given. Then: "He feared for the priests' safety and had tried to change their work prior to their arrest; however, contrary to reports, he never tried to throw them out of the Jesuit order." This sentence does not follow on from the previous one. What are the allegations? (In fact we never find out.) His position at this point, and his relationship to the priests, are not explained. When did he fear for the priests' safety? What does "change their work" mean? What was wrong with their work, in his eyes? Why would he have thrown them out of the Jesuit order? It goes on from there with mangled syntax and elliptical allusions. Then we have a whole list of testimonials which don't seem directly related to the kidnapping.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:24, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
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"On February 2019" = "In February 2019" 2605:E000:9149:8300:34C3:8045:C670:82A9 ( talk) 18:24, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Off Topic Matierial. Talk pages are for improving the encyclopedia, not for expressing personal opinions on a subject.
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Per WP:BLPSTYLE, criticism may only be included in a biography of a living person if it is sourced to a reliable secondary source. All of the sources given in the "Controversies" section of this article are to news reports and columns, which are primary sources by official Wikipedia policy per WP:PRIMARYNEWS. As such, the entire section on "Controversies" in this article needs to be deleted, as does the section on Archbishop Vigano and statements to the effect that Amoris Laetitia is "controversial". PluniaZ ( talk) 18:35, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
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"Bergoglio has said that, as a young seminarian, he had a crush on a girl he met and briefly doubted about continuing the religious career" Citation 26 no longer exists/is a working link. 174.102.80.172 ( talk) 22:49, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
The open letter signed by 19 theologians is in the news. Perhaps there should be an article. ApexUnderground ( talk) 22:42, 9 May 2019 (UTC)