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@ Ssaco: Dear editors, please read the actual references cited in the article and do not be browbeaten by aggressive nationalist users. It is common sense that you use a citation to support a statement; if the citation does not support the conclusion you are making, you cannot use it, and you have an unsourced statement.
For example, let's analyse this current lede statement in our Wikipedia article:
"Although the exact origins of the game are unknown it most likely began in Ancient Persia between the 6th century BC and the 1st century AD, as a simple game played by mounted nomads of Ancient Persian and Turkic origin in Central Asia"
First of all, this is unintelligible and contradictory - did it begin in Persia or Central Asia?
Secondly, this is NOT even in the source cited! The actual sources state:
"The origins of the game of polo are shrouded in the mist of history. China, Iran, Manipur, Mongolia, Pakistan and Tibet all claim to be the birthplace of polo. It can be safely assumed that it began as a simple folk game played by nomadic tribes in central Asia. Westward and eastward expansion followed, to Byzantium and China, most likely along the trail of the legendary Silk Road." (Laffaye, Horace A. (29 May 2009). The Evolution of Polo. pp. 5–6)
"In all probability, polo developed from rough equestrian games played by the mounted nomadic peoples of Central Asia, both Iranian and Turkic [NOTE: here, the reference to 'Iranian' should not be mistaken for Iranian nationality, but the broader ethnolinguistic Iranian peoples living in Central Asia in ancient times - a Wikipedian user has deliberately reworded this 'Iranian' somehow to 'Ancient Persian' in this Wikipedia article]. In Afghanistan, such a game survived into the twentieth century. In its original form buzkashi was a dusty melee in which hundreds of mounted tribesmen fought over the headless carcass of a goat or calf. The winner was the hardy rider who managed to grab the animal by the leg and drag it clear of the pack.... but it was further to the west in Iran (formerly known in the West as Persia), that polo was developed into the game it is today, played with a wooden stick, chowgan, and a round ball, guy." Hong, Fan; Mangan, J. A. (18 November 2009). (Evolution of Sport in Asian Society: Past and Present. Routledge. p. 309)
"A game of Central Asian origin, polo was first played in Persia (Iran) at dates given from the 6th century BC to the 1st century AD." ( https://www.britannica.com/sports/polo)
The first two are very reliable sources, both being books specifically on the history of polo or Asian sport.
Finally, I removed the statement that the "first recorded tournament was between Turkomen and Persians in 600 bc". Why? Because the source was a hotel and accomodation website, which is not reliable. It also does not make sense and is not chronologically consistent with other more reliable sources above. For one, there was most certainly no such thing as Turkmen or Turks in 600 bc central Asia. If someone can find a better source, we can put it back up. Or alternatively, it can be left up but there should be a citation needed tag. Regardless, it does not mean polo originated in Iran.
It seems pretty clear: an early form of polo originated in middle Asia (modern buzkashi), formalised in Persia (modern chovgan), and even further in South Asia (modern pulu), where it developed into something more recognisable to European polo. We shouldn't ignore the history of polo before India, nor should we ignore its history before Iran. Must look at its historical evolution as a whole. 86.30.66.111 ( talk) 22:31, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
References
A recent editor removed Turkic peoples - just prior to my recent edit, and partly what motivated my additions to the infobox. Sources definitely say both (with Iranic peoples), so I do not think that should be removed.
Also: the detailed, secondary sources in the article give the origins of polo as being from equestrian nomads of Central Asia, and that then Persians formalised the rules and developed the game from its simple beginnings. Both aspects were important in engendering the modern game, so if one is included in infobox, I believe both should be.
Here is the sequence of recent changes:
I just thought I would explain my approach. Let me know if anyone wants to discuss my edits. Thanks. 175.39.67.82 ( talk) 15:46, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
{{ Help me}}
I wanted to let you know that I have altered your entry to the infobox at polo and explain why. While you're right that often the "First" parameter is used to list the first game played in a sport, because it is such an ancient game, I wanted to fully explain its origins. For that reason, I have labelled the that paramter as "origins", which is a legitimate, and, to me anyway, more useful approach in this case.
I know the the Encyclopaedia Britannica cite you added does say "first played in Persia" but it also says "A game of Central Asian origin". The preexisting sources, which are more detailed works, talk about the origins of polo with nomads, and that Persians then formalised the rules and developed it from its simple beginnings. I think that is important too, so I have included that in the infobox as well. I believe this gives a clearer picture. If you don't think this is correct, can we please talk more about it on the article talk page? I would be pleased to discuss with you. My thanks, 175.39.67.82 ( talk) 15:16, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
The origin of the game is different from the first played. In the Wikipedia article about Football, it introduces the origin of the play of football in China and two centuries BC. But they writes about the first game in the UK.
It is stated in the Encyclopedia Britannica that polo originated in Central Asia, and in the history and origins section of this detailed article, it is stated that the Iranians and Turks invented this game in Central Asia. But immediately after this, Encyclopedia Britannica says that the first polo game was played in Iran.
The names of Iran and Persia express a concept Britannica : A game of Central Asian origin, polo was first played in Persia ( Iran) at dates given from the 6th century BC [1] [2]
References
Mitrayasna Please let's discuss first before removal of information. Guinness Book of Records had recorded the document, whether you believe it or not, whether you support the Persians or Indians. Besides, Guinness Book of Records can't be lied. I can't tell lies using Guinness Book of Records' name. It's a universal platform. Anyone can access to it. Please see for yourself too. -- Haoreima ( talk) 12:10, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
but the Guinness World Records (in the Reddit website you showed) saysEvery year the criteria are changed and suspicious records are deleted (your statement)
Deciding what makes it in is difficult, as we know we're going to have to disappoint some record holders. Everyone who breaks a GWR record gets the official certificate but also a caveat that they don't necessarily make it into the book.
They clarified it properly. It's because if all the previous years' information are to be added in the upcoming editions, the book will burst out. That Reddit post (you showed) had also said
we throw away the design every year and start from scratch; we shoot a lot of original photos; we try to get about 3000 new/updated records in there (4000 in total).
It's because new edition means to include new records in majority. Guinness World Records maintains over 53,000 records in its database. But in a single year's edition, only 4000 records are to be published. This doesn't mean others that's (53000-4000= 49000) are useless. Besides, I have shown you this one. I think this is enough! -- Haoreima ( talk) 14:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Please comment on whether shall we add the two different facts mentioned in Guinness World Records as well as Encyclopedia Britannica or add either only one! The origin of polo is said to be "Persia (Iran)" by Encyclopedia Britannica but the Guinness World Records says the origin of polo is "Manipur". The Guinness World Records clarified the record of the origin of polo as Manipur in its 1991 edition, from its former record, Persia mentioned in 1984 edition. [1]
In the 1991 edition of Guinness World Records, it states
Polo can be traced to origins in Manipur state c. 3100 B.C., when it was played as Sagol Kangjei. Other claims are of it being of Persian origin, having been played as pulu c. 525 B.C. [2]
The same Guinness World Records' fact is re highlighted in various renowned newspapers and magazines like these - [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
At the same time, Encyclopedia Britannica says
polo was first played in Persia (Iran) at dates given from the 6th century BC to the 1st century AD. [9]
I respect both the sources and I want both information to be added in the article citing their sources properly. The problem is one editor challenges the authenticity of Guinness World Records, first saying it's not said by Guinness, and later claiming that even though Guinness mentioned it, the fact is not possible. -- Haoreima ( talk) 09:12, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Polo can be traced to origins in Manipur state c. 3100 B.C., when it was played as Sagol Kangjei.
The section on positions is extremely similar to the information on http://www.caminorealpolo.com/All-about-Polo-Players-What-is-Polo-UK-Argentina.html, with only a few words changed ImperialSaponification ( talk) 16:27, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Polo article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Index
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
@ Ssaco: Dear editors, please read the actual references cited in the article and do not be browbeaten by aggressive nationalist users. It is common sense that you use a citation to support a statement; if the citation does not support the conclusion you are making, you cannot use it, and you have an unsourced statement.
For example, let's analyse this current lede statement in our Wikipedia article:
"Although the exact origins of the game are unknown it most likely began in Ancient Persia between the 6th century BC and the 1st century AD, as a simple game played by mounted nomads of Ancient Persian and Turkic origin in Central Asia"
First of all, this is unintelligible and contradictory - did it begin in Persia or Central Asia?
Secondly, this is NOT even in the source cited! The actual sources state:
"The origins of the game of polo are shrouded in the mist of history. China, Iran, Manipur, Mongolia, Pakistan and Tibet all claim to be the birthplace of polo. It can be safely assumed that it began as a simple folk game played by nomadic tribes in central Asia. Westward and eastward expansion followed, to Byzantium and China, most likely along the trail of the legendary Silk Road." (Laffaye, Horace A. (29 May 2009). The Evolution of Polo. pp. 5–6)
"In all probability, polo developed from rough equestrian games played by the mounted nomadic peoples of Central Asia, both Iranian and Turkic [NOTE: here, the reference to 'Iranian' should not be mistaken for Iranian nationality, but the broader ethnolinguistic Iranian peoples living in Central Asia in ancient times - a Wikipedian user has deliberately reworded this 'Iranian' somehow to 'Ancient Persian' in this Wikipedia article]. In Afghanistan, such a game survived into the twentieth century. In its original form buzkashi was a dusty melee in which hundreds of mounted tribesmen fought over the headless carcass of a goat or calf. The winner was the hardy rider who managed to grab the animal by the leg and drag it clear of the pack.... but it was further to the west in Iran (formerly known in the West as Persia), that polo was developed into the game it is today, played with a wooden stick, chowgan, and a round ball, guy." Hong, Fan; Mangan, J. A. (18 November 2009). (Evolution of Sport in Asian Society: Past and Present. Routledge. p. 309)
"A game of Central Asian origin, polo was first played in Persia (Iran) at dates given from the 6th century BC to the 1st century AD." ( https://www.britannica.com/sports/polo)
The first two are very reliable sources, both being books specifically on the history of polo or Asian sport.
Finally, I removed the statement that the "first recorded tournament was between Turkomen and Persians in 600 bc". Why? Because the source was a hotel and accomodation website, which is not reliable. It also does not make sense and is not chronologically consistent with other more reliable sources above. For one, there was most certainly no such thing as Turkmen or Turks in 600 bc central Asia. If someone can find a better source, we can put it back up. Or alternatively, it can be left up but there should be a citation needed tag. Regardless, it does not mean polo originated in Iran.
It seems pretty clear: an early form of polo originated in middle Asia (modern buzkashi), formalised in Persia (modern chovgan), and even further in South Asia (modern pulu), where it developed into something more recognisable to European polo. We shouldn't ignore the history of polo before India, nor should we ignore its history before Iran. Must look at its historical evolution as a whole. 86.30.66.111 ( talk) 22:31, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
References
A recent editor removed Turkic peoples - just prior to my recent edit, and partly what motivated my additions to the infobox. Sources definitely say both (with Iranic peoples), so I do not think that should be removed.
Also: the detailed, secondary sources in the article give the origins of polo as being from equestrian nomads of Central Asia, and that then Persians formalised the rules and developed the game from its simple beginnings. Both aspects were important in engendering the modern game, so if one is included in infobox, I believe both should be.
Here is the sequence of recent changes:
I just thought I would explain my approach. Let me know if anyone wants to discuss my edits. Thanks. 175.39.67.82 ( talk) 15:46, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
{{ Help me}}
I wanted to let you know that I have altered your entry to the infobox at polo and explain why. While you're right that often the "First" parameter is used to list the first game played in a sport, because it is such an ancient game, I wanted to fully explain its origins. For that reason, I have labelled the that paramter as "origins", which is a legitimate, and, to me anyway, more useful approach in this case.
I know the the Encyclopaedia Britannica cite you added does say "first played in Persia" but it also says "A game of Central Asian origin". The preexisting sources, which are more detailed works, talk about the origins of polo with nomads, and that Persians then formalised the rules and developed it from its simple beginnings. I think that is important too, so I have included that in the infobox as well. I believe this gives a clearer picture. If you don't think this is correct, can we please talk more about it on the article talk page? I would be pleased to discuss with you. My thanks, 175.39.67.82 ( talk) 15:16, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
The origin of the game is different from the first played. In the Wikipedia article about Football, it introduces the origin of the play of football in China and two centuries BC. But they writes about the first game in the UK.
It is stated in the Encyclopedia Britannica that polo originated in Central Asia, and in the history and origins section of this detailed article, it is stated that the Iranians and Turks invented this game in Central Asia. But immediately after this, Encyclopedia Britannica says that the first polo game was played in Iran.
The names of Iran and Persia express a concept Britannica : A game of Central Asian origin, polo was first played in Persia ( Iran) at dates given from the 6th century BC [1] [2]
References
Mitrayasna Please let's discuss first before removal of information. Guinness Book of Records had recorded the document, whether you believe it or not, whether you support the Persians or Indians. Besides, Guinness Book of Records can't be lied. I can't tell lies using Guinness Book of Records' name. It's a universal platform. Anyone can access to it. Please see for yourself too. -- Haoreima ( talk) 12:10, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
but the Guinness World Records (in the Reddit website you showed) saysEvery year the criteria are changed and suspicious records are deleted (your statement)
Deciding what makes it in is difficult, as we know we're going to have to disappoint some record holders. Everyone who breaks a GWR record gets the official certificate but also a caveat that they don't necessarily make it into the book.
They clarified it properly. It's because if all the previous years' information are to be added in the upcoming editions, the book will burst out. That Reddit post (you showed) had also said
we throw away the design every year and start from scratch; we shoot a lot of original photos; we try to get about 3000 new/updated records in there (4000 in total).
It's because new edition means to include new records in majority. Guinness World Records maintains over 53,000 records in its database. But in a single year's edition, only 4000 records are to be published. This doesn't mean others that's (53000-4000= 49000) are useless. Besides, I have shown you this one. I think this is enough! -- Haoreima ( talk) 14:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Please comment on whether shall we add the two different facts mentioned in Guinness World Records as well as Encyclopedia Britannica or add either only one! The origin of polo is said to be "Persia (Iran)" by Encyclopedia Britannica but the Guinness World Records says the origin of polo is "Manipur". The Guinness World Records clarified the record of the origin of polo as Manipur in its 1991 edition, from its former record, Persia mentioned in 1984 edition. [1]
In the 1991 edition of Guinness World Records, it states
Polo can be traced to origins in Manipur state c. 3100 B.C., when it was played as Sagol Kangjei. Other claims are of it being of Persian origin, having been played as pulu c. 525 B.C. [2]
The same Guinness World Records' fact is re highlighted in various renowned newspapers and magazines like these - [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
At the same time, Encyclopedia Britannica says
polo was first played in Persia (Iran) at dates given from the 6th century BC to the 1st century AD. [9]
I respect both the sources and I want both information to be added in the article citing their sources properly. The problem is one editor challenges the authenticity of Guinness World Records, first saying it's not said by Guinness, and later claiming that even though Guinness mentioned it, the fact is not possible. -- Haoreima ( talk) 09:12, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Polo can be traced to origins in Manipur state c. 3100 B.C., when it was played as Sagol Kangjei.
The section on positions is extremely similar to the information on http://www.caminorealpolo.com/All-about-Polo-Players-What-is-Polo-UK-Argentina.html, with only a few words changed ImperialSaponification ( talk) 16:27, 11 January 2024 (UTC)