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People are constantly questioning Poisons gender. If anyone has any scans of the books where its says she is a newhalf that would help to end debates.
A "newhalf?" --AWF
-I changed it to the better sounding "transsexual". That should clear it up. TheHelldragon 23:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)TheHelldragon
--Actually, that won't work, because she didn't have a sex change. "Transsexual" implies that she did, when in fact "she" is still male.-- Kung Fu Man 03:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC) --Okay, read the article there...lemme do a quick fix then to better explain it.-- Kung Fu Man 03:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
"Transsexual" Girls come in pre-op and post op flavours; and the word applies equally to both. You, sir, are incorrect. SoheiFox ( talk) 07:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
---I know what they were trying to imply to begin with...I probably used the wrong word. Apologies. Freudian slip.-- TheHelldragon 00:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
---I edited Posion's article to make it less POV. Before anyone starts, I believe that Posion is a newhalf; just that I removed or merged some sentences which imo, seems to either repeat or argue against a statement made in a previous sentence. Having one sentence saying that the game made a mistranslation of Roxy being female and than having another sentence in another body of the same article, saying it is a recton can confuse the average reader or make it sound as if certain people are expressing their own opinions on Roxy's gender.-- Doomzaber 09:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
--- I think you guys are making it too complicated, Poison was/is female, Nintendo bitched about it, so they put a penis on her and called her a newhalf. After people started dealing with the fact that sometimes females are going to get their asses beaten into submission, her story stopped including the fact that she was a newhalf and was more feminine. And I'm no expert but I believe newhalf's definition is a Female with Male organs,(sometimes because of surgical replacement). Due to the fact that she was a pure female before Nintendo had her changed, I would go with she was a female and had a sex change or was born with it. When the facts aren't clear, don't sit there dumbfounded with drool hanging down your chin trying to think of the answer, go with what makes the most sense and roll with it. Just edit the article to say that we aren't really sure what she is (which you probably have, but just let it go). ~ Paladine 10:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.115.84.193 ( talk)
It was capcom that initially did the change, Nintendo took it a step further and just replaced her and Roxy with Billy and Sid. And you can't say "we don't know which it is" when even recent sources point out she's really a man (even SvC Card Fighters DS does it! As well as everything else, jeez) Long story short, it's japan: they do that stuff all the time. Oh, side note: newhalf = men with female figures and breasts from birth.-- Kung Fu Man 15:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- The "All About Capcom" book mentions the newhalf thing. I don't know if even Capcom knows if she is or isn't, though.
Evan1975 08:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
http://kotaku.com/gaming/capcom/final-fights-poison-the-final-word-on-gender-333130.php
It says here that Poison's a new half and Roxy is female - Fortunately, we can now put the rumors to rest. Street Fighter IV producer Yoshinori Ono tells EGM in its latest issue "In North America, Poison is officially a post-op transsexual." Well, that clears that up.
"But in Japan, she simply tucks her business away in order to look like a girl," Ono adds. Oh. Well, I suppose there's always Roxy. --As far as the Japanese Mega CD version is concerned, Poison is indeed a man or newhalf. [1] The Super Famicom version features the same stamement about Poison and Roxy, but don't quote me on that. Jonny2x4 01:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
WEll most of the comments on that link says she was designed to be a female
Suggesting that trans women are a "trap" at all is the height of offensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.235.248 ( talk) 09:31, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
The alleged phone call from capcom USA to Japan (Besides being unsourced) makes no sense, as if the change to "newhalfs" is true, then the Billy and Sid replacements wouldn't be necessary. Since the enemies were actually changed, I'll assume that the first part is incorrect, and remove that part. If anyone disagrees, bring it up here, or cite an official source before reverting. -- Digital Watches ! 01:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
This is in regards to the request for assessment on the CVG Assessment page. I have rated this article as B-class, with a few recommendations for improvement- There are quite a few instances of unencyclopedic tone and weasel words sprinkled throuhgout this article that need cleaned up, though most of those need to be referenced as well. I haven't looked at the PR for this article, but I hope it's going well. Oh, and depending on who you get at GA, the "In-universe" part of the infobox might be frowned upon, though at least it's toned down and out of the article itself. Great job on improving this since I last came upon it! -- PresN 05:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games#Notable? for a discussion about this article's notability (or lack thereof). Kariteh ( talk) 14:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I got that issue of Computer and Video Games out today.. Julian Rignell the now current editor of IGN said "This is the Nancy boy version with the Women and Black men removed" So it goes Nintendo of America didn't think it would go with the Family image with Women being beaten up, and changed the sprites to men —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyber Shinobi ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I've put some improvement templates on the article, as it needs more third-party sources and should not use forum posts as sources. More information about the character's creation and the designer's influences. Cheers. Kariteh ( talk) 08:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
While I think this article needs to be destroyed and merged into Final Fight, I must point out that Poison (along with Roxy) was conceived as a newhalf long before the release of the arcade game. If you look closely at the black and white line art showing Poison and Roxy at Capcom Classics Collection, they're both clearly identified as "newhalf" in handwriting. There seems to be a common misconception (most likely from Tiamat's FAQ) that the character was originally female and then secretly changed her gender after complains from Capcom's US staff. But the concept artwork seems to indicate otherwise. Jonny2x4 ( talk) 01:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the opening statement of "Originally conceived as a female thug in Final Fight and part of the game's antagonist group, Mad Gear, concerns about reactions from North American audiences to fighting women resulted in the character being changed to a newhalf, and further replaced by male characters in the Super Nintendo release of the game." is biased. Even though the story that the character was originally designed as a female and changed due to censorship is a popular one and believed by many, there is a lot of evidence that she was either always intended to be trans or changed so early in development it makes no difference (as her trans status was already in place for the Japanese release, before American censors had anything to do with it). The beginning of the article is very important and a lot of people are referencing Wikipedia and nothing else, so I'd strongly suggest something less biased for the opening, such as this quote from Capcom Database: "During the American release of Final Fight, Capcom stated Poison to be transgender when questioned about the fact players were allowed to hit the female characters Poison and Roxy, as it was highly frowned upon at that time in America. In the SNES version of Final Fight, Poison and Roxy were further replaced with male characters named Billy and Sid due to the fact that Capcom in the U.S. did not approve of violence towards women." It basically summarizes the evidence MUCH better, without the whole 'originally conceived as a female' part which is mostly unfounded and quite problematic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.172.188.180 ( talk) 18:36, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Heads up to whomever tagged this article: You're supposed to say something on the talkpage too, not just driveby with a template.
Anyway, I oppose a merge as this article is a perfectly well sourced and notable subject that would unnecessarily dominate the main article, given the relative length of both. Ford MF ( talk) 13:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
This review is transcluded from Talk:Poison (Final Fight)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
And please leave me a note when done. Cheers — Giggy 05:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
This GAN has passed, and this is now a good article! If you found this review helpful, please consider helping out a fellow editor by reviewing another good article nomination. Help and advice on how to do so is available at Wikipedia:Reviewing good articles, and you can ask for the help of a GAN mentor, if you wish.
Cheers, — Giggy 06:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Why would capcom change Poison to a transvestite male to avoid the No-men-will-hit-girls-issue? America has a social stigma against Homosexuality! And what about Chun-Li from street Fighter, Mai from Fatal Fury, and don't forget Nintendo's Super Smash bros Games (where, might I add, the player can choose to have men beat up wemon)? It just doesn't make sense. You think by having a Female fighter would bring more of the male gamers over to final fight. I even see fanartists who know about the whole Poison-is-a-guy thing but still depict her as a female (complete with Boobs). You'd think that capcom would revert her back to being a woman, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.101.123 ( talk) 10:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Did you read the references? Mizunoryu 大熊猫❤小熊猫 ( talk) 03:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I believe the above Anonymous was trying to point out that since Poison, according to the current Capcom canon, lives and self-identifies as female, and is interested in men only. That means she's not a homosexual. Real life TS Girls really hate it when people refer to them as "homosexual", so we can likely safely assume the fictional ones do as well. SoheiFox ( talk) 07:36, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I do not think that the the words transsexual and transvestite should be used interchangeably when referring to Poison. They imply very different things. If Poison thinks of herself as a she then it would be most appropriate to refer to her as a transsexual rather than a transvestite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jettheblackdog2000 ( talk • contribs) 05:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't get why Poison, a mere "secondary" character has an article about her. She is a "background" character, making only minor appearances in videogames... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.252.220.81 ( talk) 05:07, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Just because she's even more notable than the main characters. How about reading this? Mizunoryu 大熊猫❤小熊猫 ( talk) 01:02, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
In recent interview the japanese verison of Posion has been revealed to be a man who just tucks his stuff!
"Is Poison really a man?
SF4 producer Ono explains that Poison was always meant to be a man and that in the Japanese version of Final Fight Poison is man that simply tucks his “business” away, while in the US version Poison is officially a post op transsexual." http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/626401/Street_Fighter_4_FAQ__READ_FIRST&post_num=3#9043991 Like Admiral akbar has said before "It's a TRAP!"- 67.180.225.161 ( talk) 09:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I suggest that the main image for this page be changed to her most recent official incarnation, Street Fighter X Tekken. I am unsure of how to upload my own file. However I do have a link to the image I am referring to. If someone would be kind enough to change it to this, it'd be appreciated. http://www.fightersgeneration.com/np8/char/sfxtekken/poison-sfxtekken-white.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.49.115.193 ( talk) 04:26, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
"Trap" is an offensive term. I believe it should be removed from the article completely as it doesn't contribute any substance to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.69.9.180 ( talk) 00:59, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
"Trap" is a slur. It's an unusually cruel slur that feeds into the ugliest negative cultural stereotypes about transgender women as predators and deceivers. It's a slur that feeds into stereotypes of a kind that transgender women are literally killed over. It's on Wikipedia's List of LGBT slurs. Although it may be wikipedia-notable that IGN used the slur-- I doubt it, but apparently some people here think it is-- by simply uncritically quoting it in multiple places in the article Wikipedia is effectively endorsing the slur. I hope I don't need to drag up a specific Wikipedia policy point to explain why that's unacceptable. Given this, I made some changes: I moved the word out of the header, where it adds nothing; the quote is still in the "reception" section, but it is in the context of transphobic responses to the Poison character by gamers. I would rather remove the IGN reference altogether but it's apparently already been removed and reinstated once and I don't want to start an edit war. Awk ( talk) 06:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
And with that out of the way, I would like to respond to Kung Fu Man's 07:51 "Have a nice day" post, which I inlined above. Re "just because you don't like a source, doesn't mean it isn't valid":
1. I am not trying to remove the source. I have not yet at any point made an *effort* to remove the source. My edit simply deleted *one* of the *two* references to the cite on the page.
2. The source is not very good, period. The source is not even *on IGN's site*. The link is dead, and the "cite" goes to an archive.org.
What you are fighting so hard to include is that one time, way back in 2009, one video game blog one time wrote a since-deleted joke article containing some text expressing an opinion and a including hateful pun. Why is this important? Why is this worth including, to say nothing of— why is it *more* worth including than the many internet blog posts about Poison which are *not* quoted in the article? Why is this *one article*, which its own publisher does not appear to stand by, *so important* it needs to show up *both* in the header and in a lower section? I have not made an attempt to remove the source, but still-- I do not think the source should be in the article at all.
"You're also assuming I'm "pushing transphobic statements into the article", when the source is merely quoting what is there"
What we as wikipedia editors do is make editorial decisions about sources to include, how to frame them, and what level of prominence to give them. If you give uncritical prominence to one source, then you (and by extension wikipedia) are editorially endorsing its views. If you repeatedly delete attempts to diminish that prominence, then it would seem you are endorsing the source's content very hard indeed.
Your latest edits remove my note that "trap" is a slur, but besides that-- you now appear to have gone *beyond* your defense of the word "trap" and have now also forced the word "she-male" into the article as well. Since you *added additional slurs in direct response to complaints about slurs*, I *DO* assume that this was done in bad faith. Why is it so important to you that words like "trap" and "she-male" appear *in the article text*? What does this add? It's just gratuitous.
Wikipedia:Offensive material states:
As far as I'm concerned, the relevant information here-- if *any*-- is that IGN and Official Playstation magazine at various times used anti-transgender slurs to describe Poison, then retracted them. Neither IGN nor Official Playstation magazine stands by the slurs; why must wikipedia not only immortalize them forever, but specially pick out and inline the specific most offensive words used in a simple article about a video game character?
I have to go to bed now; since it is clear that you will RV any attempt to make the article less transphobic I will give up on making edits for now and attempt to research administrative procedures tomorrow. Awk ( talk) 09:21, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
To Kung Fu Man: "It's important because it is encyclopedic"— this is circular. The content is not important and not encyclopediac. It's internet trash talking.
"it's the words they're using, and we're quoting them for emphasis"-- they're not IGN's words; IGN has removed the article. They're words of some lone, long-forgotten IGN humor writer. Many people have used many different words to describe Poison. Why are these *particular* words important, or more important than other words?
"the point of using such terms isn't to 'immortalize' them" -- then what is the point? You are digging some small instances of hate speech out of the dustbin of history in order to very visibly advertise them on Wikipedia. I see no benefit to this unless the goal is to promote the hate speech. *Many* people have been called racial, homophobic or transphobic slurs. It is simply not the case that every person who has ever been a target of hate speech has a section discussing that hate speech on their talk page, much less *inlining* that hate speech into the page.
BLP has an interesting section on "avoiding victimization" /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Presumption_in_favor_of_privacy "This is of particular importance when dealing with living individuals whose notability stems largely or entirely from being victims of another's actions. Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization." The article subject here is not a living person, but Poison is not really the target of the slurs. The target is crossdressers and transgender people, who as a whole are degraded by being called "traps" by IGN. Being baldly called "traps" by the current Wikipedia article is similarly degrading to transgender people as a whole. The supposed current purpose of this paragraph is to demonstrate how transgender people are victized by slurs, but the paragraph itself, with *your* addition of "she-male", itself victimizes transgender people by using slurs.
"quite the contrary, the terms are outright being called derogatory… People should be readily aware at the terminology used and that it was considered offensive in the context of the article". This is simply not true, becuase you have personally reverted my attempts to clearly characterize the terms as derogatory. Although I think the transphobia content is overall not encyclopediac and does not belong in the article, *if* it is to go in the article the only sensible way to do so is in the context of describing transphobia in the gamer community. However, the current text does not well contextualize the language as transphobic and in particular does not even describe "trap" as a slur or in any way offensive-- I had a sentence explaining the word is a slur, but you removed it.
I do not believe you are being honest. You are pushing very hard to include slurs, and your justifications for why have not been consistent over time. Again: "quite the contrary, the terms are outright being called derogatory" They are only being called derogatory because I edited the article to label them as derogatory; previous to this, they were not, yet you fought hard for their inclusion at that time. Previous to this, quotes such as the "crying game" comparison had no text to imply they were problematic, and the implication was that the "crying game" response was a normal way to respond to Poison as a character. You fought hard for this text, repeatedly RVing attempts to remove it from its extremely prominent place in the header, and you did not until called out attach any text contextualizing the language as derogatory. Since there was no such editorializing during these early edits/RVs, the clear implication is that you, and those who previously edited the article while leaving this text in place, *agreed* with the quoted text at that time. This previous behavior calls into question your current claims to just be trying to encyclopedically catalogue instances of transphobia. Awk ( talk) 18:37, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Currently the IGN article is used in the text as an example of people treating the character in a derogatory manner. Do we have other sources that corroborate this? On the one hand, if the IGN article is relevant, then wikipedia is not censored, so if that is what IGN said, then that is what IGN said. On the other hand, perhaps we're giving too much weight to the IGN article in this context, especially given that it's no longer live. -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 20:18, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
The verbiage in the article does indicate a deep misunderstanding of gender and transgender issues. For what it's worth, the "newhalf" verbiage seems to suggest the creators intended the character to be a
futanari, which seems to be a uniquely Japanese construct that doesn't quite match up with "cross-dresser," "transgender" or "intersex."
I've taken a stab at changing the verbiage throughout to be more consistent about this.
As for the last paragraph, with the most controversial language (and the corresponding paragraph in the lede): I don't think it belongs. There aren't any reliable sources indicating this character has become a flashpoint for transphobia in the video game publishing industry, but it seems like the sources are being
cherry-picked to make it seem that way. The character's ambiguous status among fans is already more than adequately discussed in the "conception and history" section. --
Fran Rogers (
talk) 23:36, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Apparently, "she" has always been a newhalf. 86.139.196.204 ( talk) 01:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The idea of "original research" is that one looks at material in front of them and draws their own conclusions, based on "what makes sense" and so forth despite having to stretch details to fill the points. The biggest problem here is that one piece of artwork is being cited as "proof": the concept art from Final Fight. With that stated the artwork has no date or accompanying notes regarding the characters themselves other than a "newhalf" text at the bottom. However, the issue regarind Poison and Roxy being newhalfs in FF1 was...already stated by Capcom in their own book. All the book itself states is that Capcom originally intended female characters, but went with newhalfs over worries about how American audiences would perceive violence against women. It never states how long the design was or whatnot, and what occurred with the US Nintendo port is its own matter.
Even Akiman himself in another Capcom art book states the original intention of characters with female bodies was to be a contrast to Haggar. So I'm missing the problem here: the issue is whether or not Poison was female before planning on the game as a whole took place?-- Kung Fu Man ( talk) 04:11, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Oh and to help, here's the quote from Arika Nishitani, the fellow in charge of developing the game. "I suppose Poison and Roxy could be male. We were mildly concerned about getting sued by a feminist group if we beat up women in the game. Whatever you see, that's what they are!" (Retro Gamer, issue 37 page 52). This coincides with what the Japanese book states regarding why they were changed, and doesn't require additional stretching.-- Kung Fu Man ( talk) 04:25, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I've seen a couple examples of reliable sources that criticize her for being newhalf; [2] for example. Is there any possibility that more sources could be found that come from that angle? - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 13:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
The entire " Conception and history" section is only about how Poison is transgendered. It hardly details Poinson's inspiration. I do not know for sure but Poison's design is most likely from Samantha Fox's music video "Naughty Girls Need Love Too"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXEN57rFnIM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.239.158 ( talk) 15:31, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
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People are constantly questioning Poisons gender. If anyone has any scans of the books where its says she is a newhalf that would help to end debates.
A "newhalf?" --AWF
-I changed it to the better sounding "transsexual". That should clear it up. TheHelldragon 23:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)TheHelldragon
--Actually, that won't work, because she didn't have a sex change. "Transsexual" implies that she did, when in fact "she" is still male.-- Kung Fu Man 03:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC) --Okay, read the article there...lemme do a quick fix then to better explain it.-- Kung Fu Man 03:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
"Transsexual" Girls come in pre-op and post op flavours; and the word applies equally to both. You, sir, are incorrect. SoheiFox ( talk) 07:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
---I know what they were trying to imply to begin with...I probably used the wrong word. Apologies. Freudian slip.-- TheHelldragon 00:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
---I edited Posion's article to make it less POV. Before anyone starts, I believe that Posion is a newhalf; just that I removed or merged some sentences which imo, seems to either repeat or argue against a statement made in a previous sentence. Having one sentence saying that the game made a mistranslation of Roxy being female and than having another sentence in another body of the same article, saying it is a recton can confuse the average reader or make it sound as if certain people are expressing their own opinions on Roxy's gender.-- Doomzaber 09:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
--- I think you guys are making it too complicated, Poison was/is female, Nintendo bitched about it, so they put a penis on her and called her a newhalf. After people started dealing with the fact that sometimes females are going to get their asses beaten into submission, her story stopped including the fact that she was a newhalf and was more feminine. And I'm no expert but I believe newhalf's definition is a Female with Male organs,(sometimes because of surgical replacement). Due to the fact that she was a pure female before Nintendo had her changed, I would go with she was a female and had a sex change or was born with it. When the facts aren't clear, don't sit there dumbfounded with drool hanging down your chin trying to think of the answer, go with what makes the most sense and roll with it. Just edit the article to say that we aren't really sure what she is (which you probably have, but just let it go). ~ Paladine 10:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.115.84.193 ( talk)
It was capcom that initially did the change, Nintendo took it a step further and just replaced her and Roxy with Billy and Sid. And you can't say "we don't know which it is" when even recent sources point out she's really a man (even SvC Card Fighters DS does it! As well as everything else, jeez) Long story short, it's japan: they do that stuff all the time. Oh, side note: newhalf = men with female figures and breasts from birth.-- Kung Fu Man 15:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- The "All About Capcom" book mentions the newhalf thing. I don't know if even Capcom knows if she is or isn't, though.
Evan1975 08:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
http://kotaku.com/gaming/capcom/final-fights-poison-the-final-word-on-gender-333130.php
It says here that Poison's a new half and Roxy is female - Fortunately, we can now put the rumors to rest. Street Fighter IV producer Yoshinori Ono tells EGM in its latest issue "In North America, Poison is officially a post-op transsexual." Well, that clears that up.
"But in Japan, she simply tucks her business away in order to look like a girl," Ono adds. Oh. Well, I suppose there's always Roxy. --As far as the Japanese Mega CD version is concerned, Poison is indeed a man or newhalf. [1] The Super Famicom version features the same stamement about Poison and Roxy, but don't quote me on that. Jonny2x4 01:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
WEll most of the comments on that link says she was designed to be a female
Suggesting that trans women are a "trap" at all is the height of offensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.235.248 ( talk) 09:31, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
The alleged phone call from capcom USA to Japan (Besides being unsourced) makes no sense, as if the change to "newhalfs" is true, then the Billy and Sid replacements wouldn't be necessary. Since the enemies were actually changed, I'll assume that the first part is incorrect, and remove that part. If anyone disagrees, bring it up here, or cite an official source before reverting. -- Digital Watches ! 01:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
This is in regards to the request for assessment on the CVG Assessment page. I have rated this article as B-class, with a few recommendations for improvement- There are quite a few instances of unencyclopedic tone and weasel words sprinkled throuhgout this article that need cleaned up, though most of those need to be referenced as well. I haven't looked at the PR for this article, but I hope it's going well. Oh, and depending on who you get at GA, the "In-universe" part of the infobox might be frowned upon, though at least it's toned down and out of the article itself. Great job on improving this since I last came upon it! -- PresN 05:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games#Notable? for a discussion about this article's notability (or lack thereof). Kariteh ( talk) 14:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I got that issue of Computer and Video Games out today.. Julian Rignell the now current editor of IGN said "This is the Nancy boy version with the Women and Black men removed" So it goes Nintendo of America didn't think it would go with the Family image with Women being beaten up, and changed the sprites to men —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyber Shinobi ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I've put some improvement templates on the article, as it needs more third-party sources and should not use forum posts as sources. More information about the character's creation and the designer's influences. Cheers. Kariteh ( talk) 08:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
While I think this article needs to be destroyed and merged into Final Fight, I must point out that Poison (along with Roxy) was conceived as a newhalf long before the release of the arcade game. If you look closely at the black and white line art showing Poison and Roxy at Capcom Classics Collection, they're both clearly identified as "newhalf" in handwriting. There seems to be a common misconception (most likely from Tiamat's FAQ) that the character was originally female and then secretly changed her gender after complains from Capcom's US staff. But the concept artwork seems to indicate otherwise. Jonny2x4 ( talk) 01:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the opening statement of "Originally conceived as a female thug in Final Fight and part of the game's antagonist group, Mad Gear, concerns about reactions from North American audiences to fighting women resulted in the character being changed to a newhalf, and further replaced by male characters in the Super Nintendo release of the game." is biased. Even though the story that the character was originally designed as a female and changed due to censorship is a popular one and believed by many, there is a lot of evidence that she was either always intended to be trans or changed so early in development it makes no difference (as her trans status was already in place for the Japanese release, before American censors had anything to do with it). The beginning of the article is very important and a lot of people are referencing Wikipedia and nothing else, so I'd strongly suggest something less biased for the opening, such as this quote from Capcom Database: "During the American release of Final Fight, Capcom stated Poison to be transgender when questioned about the fact players were allowed to hit the female characters Poison and Roxy, as it was highly frowned upon at that time in America. In the SNES version of Final Fight, Poison and Roxy were further replaced with male characters named Billy and Sid due to the fact that Capcom in the U.S. did not approve of violence towards women." It basically summarizes the evidence MUCH better, without the whole 'originally conceived as a female' part which is mostly unfounded and quite problematic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.172.188.180 ( talk) 18:36, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Heads up to whomever tagged this article: You're supposed to say something on the talkpage too, not just driveby with a template.
Anyway, I oppose a merge as this article is a perfectly well sourced and notable subject that would unnecessarily dominate the main article, given the relative length of both. Ford MF ( talk) 13:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
This review is transcluded from Talk:Poison (Final Fight)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
And please leave me a note when done. Cheers — Giggy 05:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
This GAN has passed, and this is now a good article! If you found this review helpful, please consider helping out a fellow editor by reviewing another good article nomination. Help and advice on how to do so is available at Wikipedia:Reviewing good articles, and you can ask for the help of a GAN mentor, if you wish.
Cheers, — Giggy 06:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Why would capcom change Poison to a transvestite male to avoid the No-men-will-hit-girls-issue? America has a social stigma against Homosexuality! And what about Chun-Li from street Fighter, Mai from Fatal Fury, and don't forget Nintendo's Super Smash bros Games (where, might I add, the player can choose to have men beat up wemon)? It just doesn't make sense. You think by having a Female fighter would bring more of the male gamers over to final fight. I even see fanartists who know about the whole Poison-is-a-guy thing but still depict her as a female (complete with Boobs). You'd think that capcom would revert her back to being a woman, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.101.123 ( talk) 10:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Did you read the references? Mizunoryu 大熊猫❤小熊猫 ( talk) 03:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I believe the above Anonymous was trying to point out that since Poison, according to the current Capcom canon, lives and self-identifies as female, and is interested in men only. That means she's not a homosexual. Real life TS Girls really hate it when people refer to them as "homosexual", so we can likely safely assume the fictional ones do as well. SoheiFox ( talk) 07:36, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I do not think that the the words transsexual and transvestite should be used interchangeably when referring to Poison. They imply very different things. If Poison thinks of herself as a she then it would be most appropriate to refer to her as a transsexual rather than a transvestite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jettheblackdog2000 ( talk • contribs) 05:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't get why Poison, a mere "secondary" character has an article about her. She is a "background" character, making only minor appearances in videogames... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.252.220.81 ( talk) 05:07, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Just because she's even more notable than the main characters. How about reading this? Mizunoryu 大熊猫❤小熊猫 ( talk) 01:02, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
In recent interview the japanese verison of Posion has been revealed to be a man who just tucks his stuff!
"Is Poison really a man?
SF4 producer Ono explains that Poison was always meant to be a man and that in the Japanese version of Final Fight Poison is man that simply tucks his “business” away, while in the US version Poison is officially a post op transsexual." http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/626401/Street_Fighter_4_FAQ__READ_FIRST&post_num=3#9043991 Like Admiral akbar has said before "It's a TRAP!"- 67.180.225.161 ( talk) 09:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I suggest that the main image for this page be changed to her most recent official incarnation, Street Fighter X Tekken. I am unsure of how to upload my own file. However I do have a link to the image I am referring to. If someone would be kind enough to change it to this, it'd be appreciated. http://www.fightersgeneration.com/np8/char/sfxtekken/poison-sfxtekken-white.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.49.115.193 ( talk) 04:26, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
"Trap" is an offensive term. I believe it should be removed from the article completely as it doesn't contribute any substance to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.69.9.180 ( talk) 00:59, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
"Trap" is a slur. It's an unusually cruel slur that feeds into the ugliest negative cultural stereotypes about transgender women as predators and deceivers. It's a slur that feeds into stereotypes of a kind that transgender women are literally killed over. It's on Wikipedia's List of LGBT slurs. Although it may be wikipedia-notable that IGN used the slur-- I doubt it, but apparently some people here think it is-- by simply uncritically quoting it in multiple places in the article Wikipedia is effectively endorsing the slur. I hope I don't need to drag up a specific Wikipedia policy point to explain why that's unacceptable. Given this, I made some changes: I moved the word out of the header, where it adds nothing; the quote is still in the "reception" section, but it is in the context of transphobic responses to the Poison character by gamers. I would rather remove the IGN reference altogether but it's apparently already been removed and reinstated once and I don't want to start an edit war. Awk ( talk) 06:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
And with that out of the way, I would like to respond to Kung Fu Man's 07:51 "Have a nice day" post, which I inlined above. Re "just because you don't like a source, doesn't mean it isn't valid":
1. I am not trying to remove the source. I have not yet at any point made an *effort* to remove the source. My edit simply deleted *one* of the *two* references to the cite on the page.
2. The source is not very good, period. The source is not even *on IGN's site*. The link is dead, and the "cite" goes to an archive.org.
What you are fighting so hard to include is that one time, way back in 2009, one video game blog one time wrote a since-deleted joke article containing some text expressing an opinion and a including hateful pun. Why is this important? Why is this worth including, to say nothing of— why is it *more* worth including than the many internet blog posts about Poison which are *not* quoted in the article? Why is this *one article*, which its own publisher does not appear to stand by, *so important* it needs to show up *both* in the header and in a lower section? I have not made an attempt to remove the source, but still-- I do not think the source should be in the article at all.
"You're also assuming I'm "pushing transphobic statements into the article", when the source is merely quoting what is there"
What we as wikipedia editors do is make editorial decisions about sources to include, how to frame them, and what level of prominence to give them. If you give uncritical prominence to one source, then you (and by extension wikipedia) are editorially endorsing its views. If you repeatedly delete attempts to diminish that prominence, then it would seem you are endorsing the source's content very hard indeed.
Your latest edits remove my note that "trap" is a slur, but besides that-- you now appear to have gone *beyond* your defense of the word "trap" and have now also forced the word "she-male" into the article as well. Since you *added additional slurs in direct response to complaints about slurs*, I *DO* assume that this was done in bad faith. Why is it so important to you that words like "trap" and "she-male" appear *in the article text*? What does this add? It's just gratuitous.
Wikipedia:Offensive material states:
As far as I'm concerned, the relevant information here-- if *any*-- is that IGN and Official Playstation magazine at various times used anti-transgender slurs to describe Poison, then retracted them. Neither IGN nor Official Playstation magazine stands by the slurs; why must wikipedia not only immortalize them forever, but specially pick out and inline the specific most offensive words used in a simple article about a video game character?
I have to go to bed now; since it is clear that you will RV any attempt to make the article less transphobic I will give up on making edits for now and attempt to research administrative procedures tomorrow. Awk ( talk) 09:21, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
To Kung Fu Man: "It's important because it is encyclopedic"— this is circular. The content is not important and not encyclopediac. It's internet trash talking.
"it's the words they're using, and we're quoting them for emphasis"-- they're not IGN's words; IGN has removed the article. They're words of some lone, long-forgotten IGN humor writer. Many people have used many different words to describe Poison. Why are these *particular* words important, or more important than other words?
"the point of using such terms isn't to 'immortalize' them" -- then what is the point? You are digging some small instances of hate speech out of the dustbin of history in order to very visibly advertise them on Wikipedia. I see no benefit to this unless the goal is to promote the hate speech. *Many* people have been called racial, homophobic or transphobic slurs. It is simply not the case that every person who has ever been a target of hate speech has a section discussing that hate speech on their talk page, much less *inlining* that hate speech into the page.
BLP has an interesting section on "avoiding victimization" /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Presumption_in_favor_of_privacy "This is of particular importance when dealing with living individuals whose notability stems largely or entirely from being victims of another's actions. Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization." The article subject here is not a living person, but Poison is not really the target of the slurs. The target is crossdressers and transgender people, who as a whole are degraded by being called "traps" by IGN. Being baldly called "traps" by the current Wikipedia article is similarly degrading to transgender people as a whole. The supposed current purpose of this paragraph is to demonstrate how transgender people are victized by slurs, but the paragraph itself, with *your* addition of "she-male", itself victimizes transgender people by using slurs.
"quite the contrary, the terms are outright being called derogatory… People should be readily aware at the terminology used and that it was considered offensive in the context of the article". This is simply not true, becuase you have personally reverted my attempts to clearly characterize the terms as derogatory. Although I think the transphobia content is overall not encyclopediac and does not belong in the article, *if* it is to go in the article the only sensible way to do so is in the context of describing transphobia in the gamer community. However, the current text does not well contextualize the language as transphobic and in particular does not even describe "trap" as a slur or in any way offensive-- I had a sentence explaining the word is a slur, but you removed it.
I do not believe you are being honest. You are pushing very hard to include slurs, and your justifications for why have not been consistent over time. Again: "quite the contrary, the terms are outright being called derogatory" They are only being called derogatory because I edited the article to label them as derogatory; previous to this, they were not, yet you fought hard for their inclusion at that time. Previous to this, quotes such as the "crying game" comparison had no text to imply they were problematic, and the implication was that the "crying game" response was a normal way to respond to Poison as a character. You fought hard for this text, repeatedly RVing attempts to remove it from its extremely prominent place in the header, and you did not until called out attach any text contextualizing the language as derogatory. Since there was no such editorializing during these early edits/RVs, the clear implication is that you, and those who previously edited the article while leaving this text in place, *agreed* with the quoted text at that time. This previous behavior calls into question your current claims to just be trying to encyclopedically catalogue instances of transphobia. Awk ( talk) 18:37, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Currently the IGN article is used in the text as an example of people treating the character in a derogatory manner. Do we have other sources that corroborate this? On the one hand, if the IGN article is relevant, then wikipedia is not censored, so if that is what IGN said, then that is what IGN said. On the other hand, perhaps we're giving too much weight to the IGN article in this context, especially given that it's no longer live. -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 20:18, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
The verbiage in the article does indicate a deep misunderstanding of gender and transgender issues. For what it's worth, the "newhalf" verbiage seems to suggest the creators intended the character to be a
futanari, which seems to be a uniquely Japanese construct that doesn't quite match up with "cross-dresser," "transgender" or "intersex."
I've taken a stab at changing the verbiage throughout to be more consistent about this.
As for the last paragraph, with the most controversial language (and the corresponding paragraph in the lede): I don't think it belongs. There aren't any reliable sources indicating this character has become a flashpoint for transphobia in the video game publishing industry, but it seems like the sources are being
cherry-picked to make it seem that way. The character's ambiguous status among fans is already more than adequately discussed in the "conception and history" section. --
Fran Rogers (
talk) 23:36, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Apparently, "she" has always been a newhalf. 86.139.196.204 ( talk) 01:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The idea of "original research" is that one looks at material in front of them and draws their own conclusions, based on "what makes sense" and so forth despite having to stretch details to fill the points. The biggest problem here is that one piece of artwork is being cited as "proof": the concept art from Final Fight. With that stated the artwork has no date or accompanying notes regarding the characters themselves other than a "newhalf" text at the bottom. However, the issue regarind Poison and Roxy being newhalfs in FF1 was...already stated by Capcom in their own book. All the book itself states is that Capcom originally intended female characters, but went with newhalfs over worries about how American audiences would perceive violence against women. It never states how long the design was or whatnot, and what occurred with the US Nintendo port is its own matter.
Even Akiman himself in another Capcom art book states the original intention of characters with female bodies was to be a contrast to Haggar. So I'm missing the problem here: the issue is whether or not Poison was female before planning on the game as a whole took place?-- Kung Fu Man ( talk) 04:11, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Oh and to help, here's the quote from Arika Nishitani, the fellow in charge of developing the game. "I suppose Poison and Roxy could be male. We were mildly concerned about getting sued by a feminist group if we beat up women in the game. Whatever you see, that's what they are!" (Retro Gamer, issue 37 page 52). This coincides with what the Japanese book states regarding why they were changed, and doesn't require additional stretching.-- Kung Fu Man ( talk) 04:25, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I've seen a couple examples of reliable sources that criticize her for being newhalf; [2] for example. Is there any possibility that more sources could be found that come from that angle? - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 13:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
The entire " Conception and history" section is only about how Poison is transgendered. It hardly details Poinson's inspiration. I do not know for sure but Poison's design is most likely from Samantha Fox's music video "Naughty Girls Need Love Too"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXEN57rFnIM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.239.158 ( talk) 15:31, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
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