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Historic pulao only had vegetables and rice, no meat. The meat (especially beef/pork) were added in as the dish traveled west. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.73.28.110 ( talk) 14:39, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
On the history section, there are clear policy violations beginning on this paragraph:
"Uzbek Pilav – there are so many types, tastes and legends of this national dish. It is the king and masterpiece of Uzbek cuisine. No single fest or family event is celebrated without pilav. Each region of Uzbekistan cooks its unique type of pilav, as well as there are its own type of pilav for each event. Although it is not possible to display every single type of Uzbek pilav in a single page, we have listed here some of the famous types of pilav, with related photos and descriptions, that is worth to taste on your next trip to Uzbekistan."
83.165.97.105 ( talk) 01:31, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
The P-dish is a basic rice dish. It is over ambitious to assume that this simple rice dish would have to originate in one place and spread. People in any rice and spice producing region would have figured out how to make flavored rice in myriad variations. It does seem apparent that everywhere the same dish is adapted to what was locally grow-able. The dish would have been prepare-able long before Alexander.
The origin of the word however could have a verifiable record in literature, possibly might be greek/turkish/persian/sanskrit/any of the oldest languages etc. There are many words that span Germanic, central asian, Indic, given indo-arabic-germanic trade-routes. The use of a word might catch on. However, in this article there isn't any citation or proof of the earliest use of the word of the P-dish.
This article needs a rewrite. Just explain what the dish really is and subsections as how each region has its own adaptation alphabetically in a neutral manner. The Etymology if cite-able, could be moved into its own subsection. The history is just concocted and might as well be deleted. Hgkamath ( talk) 06:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
to the poster that says Plov is not used in English, Hes obviously not from queens,which has a large (Jewish)Uzbek comunity, Plov isnt just generic, it has a special recipe and a specific taste, trust me ive eaten it at over 20 restaurants in rego park. Shwarma,Donner & Gyro all have their own article despite similarity to eachother because they all have defined "standard tastes" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.241.66 ( talk) 16:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Method: fry spices - cardamom, cloves, cinamon - and onion; add DRY rice and fry until it becomes white, rather than pearly; then add liquid - preferably stock; cook until tender, adding more liquid as necessary. [Source: little old lady in Bombay Resaurant, Manchester ~1959] (anonymous) moved here by -- Jpbrenna 19:13, 21 May 2005 (UTC) until we can move it to Wikirecipes.
The document says the following:
The word pilau is of Persian origin. However, in modern Persian, it is pronounced polo (پلو), with the first syllabe short, and the second long. Note also the relationship to Spanish 'paella', so it covers the whole extent of the Arab empire in its prime. The pilaf was probably a standard Moorish method for cooking rice - with no wasted water, important in desert regions like North Africa. It was likely introduced to the Balkans during the Ottoman period.
Yet the page for Paella says:
The name paella is the word for "frying pan" in Valencian/Catalan (from Latin patella). However, the dish has become so popular in Spanish that the word paellera is now usually used for the pan and paella almost exclusively for the dish. Paella is pronounced IPA: /pa'eʎa/, approximately "pah-EH-yah".
What's more, I distinctly remember reading in a tour book to a Central Asian country (Uzbekistan, I believe), that the word originates from greek Poluv, meaning "mixed" and was spread during Macedonian conquests. Is there any confirmation on the pilau origins? User:Bobby Isosceles
The page only gives a short discription of what pilaf is and to me seems like it is pretty much just about Persian rice dishes, not really very informative if you want to learn what rice pilaf is.
Plov is not used in English, but pilaf is a common food item in stores. - Iopq 06:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
What's the difference between Pilaf and Biryani, since they both seem to involve the same methods of preparation/ingredients, as well as originating in the Iran-Central Asia- northern India region? Le Anh-Huy 08:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Biryani is par-cooked in water, then cooked in a mixture of yogurt, spices, and oil. Pilaf isn't cooked in yogurt. Biryani is much harder to make. Themissinglint ( talk) 00:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
In Biryani, both the curry sauce (with meat) and the rice are cooked separately. Then layers of rice and sauce are laid in one big pot and steamed. After that it is mixed. Some rice are then white and some are colored. In Pulao, a much lighter sauce is cooked first and then rice is cooked in this sauce. yasirniazkhan ( talk) 13:30, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Pilau is also a very popular dish in East Africa, though it has not been mentioned in the text. The dish has been brought there by indian settlers and arabic merchants, today it is a dish prepared and served on celebrations and other festivities by africans and Indians alike.-- 80.78.216.88 ( talk) 21:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
We have cooked from this Cypriat cook book for many years. I am now intetrested in buckwheat as an ingredient but it is not wheat at all. But pnigouri is a wheat, or is it? So could I use buckwheat in place of pnigouri is my question. 78.146.141.145 ( talk) 11:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Maybe we could note the spanish paella here? The same idea, close technologies - and almost the same names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.224.214.145 ( talk) 19:08, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Tahdigh should have a Wikipedia page. It is one of the most important pieces of Persian culture. I'm not saying I want to make the page, but, you know, make it a red link or whatnot.
the word pulao is derived from sanskrit palanna;pal(meat)+anna(rice),not your pulaka. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.99.5.66 ( talk) 10:20, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
This article contains so much original research, so many uncited claims and so much non-encyclopedian information that I deemed it beyond repair. Consequently I initiated a complete rewrite. I suggest appropriate information (images etc) be gradually incorporated from the old article into this one. ✎ HannesP · talk 11:40, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
I would suggest that the Oxford or Penguin Companion to Food by Alan Davidson be added as a reference. I'm talking about the 2002 edition ISBN 014-200163-5 (there is a more recent edition but I don't have it). The 2002 edition has an interesting and authoritative article on Pilaf by written by Charles Perry, a leading authority on Medieval Arab Cookery. Although I have not looked at it, another possible authoritative reference is Medieval Arab Cookery by Charles Perry, A.J. Arberry and Maxine Rodinson. -- Bjdoyle ( talk) 05:30, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
It may be just my personal taste, but I find that the previous illustration in the infobox had a much higher quality than the new one.
Is there a deeper reason for the change apart from the aesthetics? -- Off-shell ( talk) 21:17, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
what about adding it? http://www.turkmenkitchen.com/en/turkmen-pilaf/ and http://around-the-world-in-eighty-dishes.blogspot.com.tr/2012/06/3-turkmen-pilaf-plov.html
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No reason it should be separate, nothing remarkable when all the variations are here.-- Kintetsubuffalo ( talk) 05:01, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
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Such deletions [1] of oxford, cambridge, etc. references can be considered as vandalism. Please do not do it. Researcherandanalyst ( talk) 01:44, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Pilau most likely originated in Iran, and it traveled to Europe and South Asia after the expansion of Islam.
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a Persian word meaning rice boiled with meats and spices."
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Islam gave to Indian cookery its masterpiece dishes from the Middle East. These include pilau (from Iranian pollo and Turkish pilaf), samossa (Turkish sambussak), shir kurma (dates and milk), kebabs, sherbet, stuffed vegetables, oven bread, and confections (halvah).
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Pilaf originated in Persia, but then rice cooked in flavoured broths is a widespread phenomenon!
Pilau likely originated in Iran, and it traveled to Europe and South Asia after the expansion of lslam
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PILAU (pullao/pulao/pilaf) Rice-based dishes have their origin in Persia, from where they spread during the time of the Persian Empire, hence the many variations in spelling. The difference between this dish and biriani is that, in a pilau, the rice is boiled along with the vegetables, poultry, meat or seafood until tender, whereas in a biriani the various ingredients are par-cooked and then assembled in layers.
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The low-country rice dish par excellence is "pilau," as the dish more commonly known as pilaf is called in Persian. The technique, like the dish, originated in Persia, according to Hess
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However, there is no evidence that rice was cooked by this technique in India before the Muslim invasions, and Indians themselves associate pilaf-making with Muslim cities such as Hyderabad, Lucknow, and Delhi
The ancient Hindu text Mahabharata from the Indian subcontinent mentions rice and meat cooked together, and the word "pulao" or "pallao" is used to refer to the dish in ancient Sanskrit works such as the Yājñavalkya Smṛti. [1] [2]
Hi Highpeaks35. I have no interest in Pilaf whatsoever, and I have zero opinion about the origin of the dish, but you are clearly deleting proper referenced material here in order to push your POV. If you have clear reputable sources stating that Pilaf is of Indian origin, please provide them, with links and quotes. So far, I don't see anything like that, appart from the vague sentence on terminology and tradition above: nowhere is it stated that pilaf originated in India. Once you have this kind of reference, the best you can probably obtain is to have a balanced sentence explaining that some authors also consider that Pilaf may have been Indian in origin, but certainly not delete all the references you don't like. "Reference overkill" is not a reason to delete all references and put your POV instead. You are also making false statements and insulting edit summaries, like "Junk references; could not even find a mention. Take it to the talk page" [3], but finally recognized that the references are OK once you were challenged and you actually checked "after checking the references, I have no issues with it" [4]: this is very improper. You have to cool down, here and on several articles. पाटलिपुत्र ( talk) 06:36, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I have now changed the article to reflect my rewrite of the lead, consented to by others above, but as amended in the India section by Highpeaks35. Best regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:21, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Basmati rice: Perhaps the most famous aromatic rice, basmati is grown in India and Pakistan. It has a nutlike fragrance while cooking and a delicate, almost buttery flavor. Unlike other types of rice, the grains elongate much more than they plump as they cook. Lower in starch than other long-grain types, basmati grains turn out fluffy and separate. Although it is most commonly used in Indian cooking, basmati can also be substituted for regular rice in any favorite recipe. Both brown and white basmati rice are available.
I have altered the lead sentence to reflect two relatively reliable sources, the Oxford English Dictionary, 3rd ed, 2006, available online with subscription, and the Oxford Companion to Food, 3rd edition (OUP, 2014), both of which refer only to broad sub-regions of Asia, and both are quoted in the two footnotes in the lead. There is no reason to add anything more, especially by way of adding the contributions of present-day nations. Older editions of the OED were more geographically specific in attribution of origin, the later ones are not, as the first footnote in the lead demonstrates. I have also changed the Infobox image for reasons you will find in my edit summaries.
Parenthetically, the dish is of diverse origin, as such a dish necessarily has to be. As rice was domesticated in South Asia before it was in West Asia, there was, most likely, some tradition of cooking rice in stock in South Asia, which was adapted to a unique style of cooking in West Asia, in which the individual grains remain separate. The latter method was introduced back into South Asia after the Muslim conquests in the 13th century. Of course, we cannot state this in the Wikipedia article as it is speculation. The domestication of food and evolution of cuisine are complicated issues, and certainties of one age give way to uncertainties of the next, as more powerful, and more multidisciplinary, tools become available. In other words, if multiple authors with diverse expertise in DNA analyses, archaeology, paleo-meteorology, historical linguists, are writing scholarly articles on the domestication of one grain, older histories of all food, written by a single author, will be becoming less reliable. Best regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:41, 9 January 2019 (UTC) Revised: Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:04, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
most likely, some tradition of cooking rice in stock in South Asia, which was adapted to a unique style of cooking in West Asia, in which the individual grains remain separate. The latter method was introduced back into South Asia after the Muslim conquests in the 13th century.
References
Food was rich and varied in south India in the first few centuries ad. As observed above, there were at least five varieties of rice. 183 Rice was of course mostly eaten boiled, but sometimes fried aromatics were sprinkled on it. 19a Dressing with tamarind gave puli-kari (puli-sadam), 203 and further with sesame seeds and sugar yielded chitrannam. 20b Rice could be cooked with a pulse (the present pongal), 21 or cooked with ‘fatted meat’, 22 or ‘well-cooked with ghee’. 233 There is a poetic description of ‘rice which looked like jasmine buds, the grains elongated like fingers, and separate from one another’.
washing rice before boiling, Parboiling rice, aging rice was also well known
Sanskrit work of the 6th century ad, the Dasaku-maracharita of Dandin, 24 relates the tale by which Gomini, a lass of the Dravidian country, found a husband by the economical way in which she dealt with a quantity of paddy. All the steps in the processing of paddy are elegantly and lovingly described: grinding, drying, removing the husk, and then polishing with a pounder (whose end is covered with iron plates), followed by winnowing the grains, and then washing them before cooking in boiling water. 24 Rice kept for three years was considered healthy. 17b Pulangalarisi was paddy parboiled by immersion in hot water, drying and pounding. Both ageing and parboiling could have been means based on experience for hardening rice, and the latter gave, on milling, a higher yield of whole grains, and of a better nutritive quality,than did raw rice.
soaking of rice was also a common method
Aval was rice that was soaked, and roasted in sand until about to puff, followed by flattening in a pounder. Soaked rice was puf¬ fed to pori by throwing it on hot sand. Both aval and pori were eaten after soaking in milk.
{{{1}}} 60.52.50.71 ( talk) 07:03, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
I don't think you understand what reliable sources mean on Wikipedia. I have no proposal. I already have a long standing version in place in the article.
I am simply summarizing what the reliable secondary sources say. Ancient Indian sources are not secondary sources. They cannot be used on Wikipedia. Parboiling of rice is practiced all over southeast Asia and China (where rice was first domesticated), but what they make is not pilaf or pilau. The key step in the preparation of a pilaf is the last in which the half cooked rice is placed in a dish which is covered with cloth before being closed with the lid. The dish is then placed on a source of low heat for half and hour, sometimes in an oven. The reliable secondary ones are very clear. Rice and its cooking may have gone from India to the Middle East, but the pilaf or pilau is a Middle Eastern method of preparing rice that was introduced into India by the Muslims. Here are two sources:
On page 624:
"pilaf or pilau, a Middle Eastern method of cooking rice so that every grain remains separate, and the name of the resulting dish. Usually a flavouring such as meat (usually lamb) or vegetables is cooked along with it, but plain rice, known as sade pilav (Turkish), rut mufal-fal (Arabic), or chelo (Farsi), can also be cooked by this technique. The word comes from the medieval Farsi pulaw, now pronounced polo. Most European languages have borrowed the Turkish form pilav, which is clearly related to the Russian and C. Asian ploy (a term which coexists in the C. Asian Republics with palaw). Since the word has no credible Persian etymology, it might be Indian. However, there is no evidence that rice was cooked by this technique in India before the Muslim invasions, and Indians themselves associate pilaf-making with Muslim cities such as Hyderabad, Lucknow, and Delhi. .... The first descriptions of the pilaf technique appear in the 13th-century Arabic books Kitab al-Tabikh and Kitab al-Witsla ila al Habib, written in Baghdad and Syria, respectively. They show the technique in its entirety, including the cloth beneath the lid, and describe still-current flavourings such as meat, pulses, and fruit. The Arab name, ruzz mufalfal, means 'peppered rice; but not with any implication that it is flavoured with pepper. The 13th-century recipes say to cook the rice 'until it is mufalfal; showing that the word refers to the appearance of the rice, plumped up in grains as separate as peppercorns. " "
and again on page 625:
In India pulao is associated with the cookery of the Moghul courts (see MOGHUL CUISINE) and extremely elaborate recipes with flowery Persian names (such as Nazar pasand, thousand delights) are current. The flavourings are such things as whole game birds, the yogurt-and cream-enriched stews called KORMA, and many combinations of fruits and nuts. Much about the spicy and extravagant flavourings may be characteristically Indian, but the pilaf cooking method contrasts with the local traditions of S. India, where the recipes do not aim at keeping the grains of rice separate. The typical indigenous rice dishes are porridges, puddings, and cakes made from ground rice."
In response you can't throw page 54 of Achaya at me, especially when he is bluntly saying about Muslims above. I have no proposal. The lead of the article has already been carefully edited. There is nothing that you have brought to the table that I don't already know. I bought Achaya 20 years ago. I know what is in it. Please revert to the careful NPOV version that was already in the lead. Best regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 10:41, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
The first known recipe for pilaf is by the tenth-century Persian scholar Avicenna (Ibn Sīnā), who in his books on medical sciences dedicated a whole section to preparing various dishes, including several types of pilaf. In doing so, he described advantages and disadvantages of every item used for preparing the dish. Accordingly, Persians consider Ibn Sina to be the "father" of modern pilaf.
but the pilaf cooking method contrasts with the local traditions of S. India, where the recipes do not aim at keeping the grains of rice separate.
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same book of K.T. Achaya, what you are quoting me are plain books, which contain zero historic references, you need to provide that, you have not bothered to answer my arguments instead tried to bring more references, i can do that as well. your own references are contradicting each other, was pilaf recipe first given by avicenna in the tenth or arabs in the thirteenth century? 175.137.72.188 ( talk) 15:27, 9 February 2019 (UTC)The third marriage feast comes from Naishadha Charita (dated to the 12th century AD) , and is written by a poet who was clearly also a gourmet. There was boiled rice served hot, unbroken, fragrant and well-cooked, with each grain separate.
If Hinduism has given a high spiritual content to the meal, it has paid little attention to the art of cooking. Boiled cereals and griddle bread, stewed vegetables, and pulses had been the usual diet since the beginning of Indian civilization.
paella, which evolved from pulao, and pilaf and meat patties that started out as samosa or sambusak.
References
Please expand the collapsed box below to view details of eight high quality sources which together make a clear case that the style of cooking rice, that we call pilaf, or pilau, or pulao, originated in West- or Central Asia, not in India. Rice and its cultivation did spread from India to Iran many millenniums ago, but this unique form of cooking rice was brought back to India by the Muslims. Sources 1 and 8, in particular, make explicit mention of the book of KT Achaya, Indian Food: A Historical Companion, whose every obscure footnote is being milked by nationalist India-POV editors on this page to claim an Indian origin for pilaf.
Expand to see reliable secondary sources, including 1) Sen, Colleen Taylor (2014),
Feasts and Fasts: A History of Food in India, Reaktion Books, pp. 164–5,
ISBN
978-1-78023-391-8 2) Roger, Delphine (2000), "The Middle East and South Asia (in Chapter: History and Culture of Food and Drink in Asia)", in Kiple, Kenneth F.; Ornelas, Kriemhild Coneè (eds) (ed.),
The Cambridge World History of Food, vol. Volume 2, Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press, pp. 1140–1150,
ISBN
978-0-521-40215-6 {{
citation}} : |editor= has generic name (
help); |volume= has extra text (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (
link) 3) Sengupta, Jayanta (2014), "India", in Freedman, Paul; Chaplin, Joyce E.; Albala, Ken (eds) (ed.),
Food in Time and Place: The American Historical Association Companion to Food History, Univ of California Press, pp. 68–94,
ISBN
978-0-520-27745-8 {{
citation}} : |editor= has generic name (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (
link) 4) Davidson, Alan (2014),
The Oxford Companion to Food, Oxford University Press, pp. 624–625,
ISBN
978-0-19-967733-7 5) American Institute for Cancer Research (2005),
The New American Plate Cookbook: Recipes for a Healthy Weight and a Healthy Life, University of California Press, pp. 158–,
ISBN
978-0-520-24234-0 6) Collingham, Elizabeth M. (2007),
Curry: A Tale of Cooks and Conquerors, Oxford University Press, pp. 25–26,
ISBN
978-0-19-532001-5 7) Kraig, Bruce (2013),
The Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America, Oxford University Press USA, p. 140,
ISBN
978-0-19-973496-2 8)
Nandy, Ashis (2004),
"The Changing Popular Culture of Indian Food: Preliminary Notes", South Asia Research, 24 (1): 9–19,
doi:
10.1177/0262728004042760,
ISSN
0262-7280
|
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1 Sen, Colleen Taylor (2014), Feasts and Fasts: A History of Food in India, Reaktion Books, pp. 164–5, ISBN 978-1-78023-391-8
2. Roger, Delphine (2000), "The Middle East and South Asia (in Chapter: History and Culture of Food and Drink in Asia)", in Kiple, Kenneth F.; Ornelas, Kriemhild Coneè (eds) (ed.),
The Cambridge World History of Food, vol. Volume 2, Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press, pp. 1140–1150,
ISBN
978-0-521-40215-6
3. Sengupta, Jayanta (2014), "India", in Freedman, Paul; Chaplin, Joyce E.; Albala, Ken (eds) (ed.),
Food in Time and Place: The American Historical Association Companion to Food History, Univ of California Press, pp. 68–94,
ISBN
978-0-520-27745-8
4. Davidson, Alan (2014), The Oxford Companion to Food, Oxford University Press, pp. 624–625, ISBN 978-0-19-967733-7
'5. American Institute for Cancer Research (2005), The New American Plate Cookbook: Recipes for a Healthy Weight and a Healthy Life, University of California Press, pp. 158–, ISBN 978-0-520-24234-0
6. Collingham, Elizabeth M. (2007), Curry: A Tale of Cooks and Conquerors, Oxford University Press, pp. 25–26, ISBN 978-0-19-532001-5
7. Kraig, Bruce (2013), The Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America, Oxford University Press USA, p. 140, ISBN 978-0-19-973496-2
8. Nandy, Ashis (2004), "The Changing Popular Culture of Indian Food: Preliminary Notes", South Asia Research, 24 (1): 9–19, doi: 10.1177/0262728004042760, ISSN 0262-7280
|
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:09, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
Conclusion: There are eight high quality sources which together make a clear case that the style of cooking rice, that we call pilaf, or pilau, or pulao, originated in West- or Central Asia, not in India. Rice and its cultivation did spread from India to Iran many millenniums ago, but this unique form of cooking rice was brought back to India by the Muslims. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:16, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
The case that pilau/pilaf originated in India turns on a footnote to a footnote in KT Achaya's book. The footnote is to a 1926 book about Ancient Jaffna (in Sri Lanka) and the footnote's footnote is to a Sangam literature poem in classical Tamil, almost 2,000 years ago. No WP forum will consider this fluke form of causality to form a reliable argument, let alone one which uses old if not ancient sources. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:16, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Expand to see one source and its footnote, and footnote to the footnote: Achaya, K.T. (1994), Indian Food Tradition A Historical Companion, Oxford University Press, p. 45, ISBN 0195628454 |
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1. Achaya, K.T. (1994), Indian Food Tradition A Historical Companion, Oxford University Press India, p. 45, ISBN 0195628454
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[1] fluke as well? you are not answering my questions/objections/arguments you just want to impose your POV, i have already commented on your sources, please read them and answer my objections. 175.137.72.188 ( talk) 07:37, 11 February 2019 (UTC)The third marriage feast comes from Naishadha Charita (dated to the 12th century AD) , and is written by a poet who was clearly also a gourmet. There was boiled rice served hot, unbroken, fragrant and well-cooked, with each grain separate.
References
this article is manufactured for european/western readers, any non european reader must avoid this topic, i have already highlighted how european sources presented here are biased/sectarian, this article is no less biased in favour of really pathetic european scholarship.
the gest of this article is summarised below;
If Hinduism has given a high spiritual content to the meal, it has paid little attention to the art of cooking. Boiled cereals and griddle bread, stewed vegetables, and pulses had been the usual diet since the beginning of Indian civilization. Roger, Delphine (2000), "The Middle East and South Asia (in Chapter: History and Culture of Food and Drink in Asia)", in Kiple, Kenneth F.; Ornelas, Kriemhild Coneè (eds) (ed.), The Cambridge World History of Food, vol. Volume 2, Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press, pp. 1140–1150, ISBN 978-0-521-40215-6
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regards
175.137.72.188 ( talk) 14:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Has anyone considered a separate article on pilau which is a type of pilav, not another word for pilav? There is a huge amount of content just on this talk page that could be used to create a new article. Shofet tsaddiq ( talk) 04:20, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Persians had developed a more refined form of the dish, called polow, in which meats and/or vegetables were mixed into the rice, or more frequently, layered with the rice and then steamed. Polow is an art form in Iran—cooks strive to produce light, fluffy grains while retaining the natural flavor. .... The Ottoman Turks, at some point during their passage through central Asia, probably encountered the rice and meat dish there, which they pronounced pilay. In any case, pilav subsequently became a basic of the Turkish kitchen, part of everyday cooking as well as a ubiquitous dish at special occasions. ... The predominant varieties of rice in Turkey are medium-grain and short-grain. For pilav, Turks prefer medium-grain rice varieties, notably Baldo (longer and flatter than most medium-grain varieties, and originally from Italy) and the native Osmancik. They also import a rice from Egypt called "pilav rice" or "Egyptian rice." Because of the extra starch in medium-grain rice, the grains normally stick together when cooked, a state undesirable for pilaus. Consequently, a slightly different cooking technique evolved—no one knows who developed it—of first briefly sautéing (kavurma "roasted") the grain in hot fat before adding the liquid, a process that helps to keep the kernels separate and also gives them more flavor. Frying the rice in oil is a Jewish practice, as it allows the dish to be served at a meat meal; the Turks and Arabs typically use clarified butter (suzme yag). After cooking, pilau is always left to steam (dein-lemek), covered, for at least ten minutes—some cooks steam it for up to one hour—to achieve the desired.
Shofet tsaddiq ( talk · contribs), you might not be aware of the Wikipedi ainjunction to shun original research and synthesis. Already in your hurried edits you have done both and done so prolifically. Please read those Wikipedia guideline pages and please remove the flawed text; otherwise, I will, for now, be forced to add two more tags to the article. Fowler&fowler «Talk»
Again, whatever your compulsions and immediate history for alighting on this page, you don't have the skills, nor the experience yet, for writing such an article. You are juggling bits of undigested information. Such editing pushed beyond a point becomes disruptive. Your lead sentence, "Pilaf is term used for rice dishes where the desired consistency of the grain is separated, individal grains, without clumping." has errors of syntax, style, and coherence. Sorry to be blunt, but you don't seem to be listening. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 21:08, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
K. T. Achaya is an unreliable source, full of errors, written by a retired researcher in oil kernels with no experience of history, one who is wildly misinterpreting the sources, who has no publication history in Food History. One such doozy is the fantasy that the method of cooking rice in stock in which the grains separate, and to which meat and other ingredients are added later, as in Pilaf, was present in ancient India 2000 years go. In fact, he cites a book published in 1926 on Ancient Jaffna (Jaffna is the northern part of Sri Lanka), which itself is footnoting a poem from the Sangam Literature, ca 100 BCE to 100 CE, but which was lost to human history until it was rediscovered by Tamil scholars in the 19th century. It matters little to Mr Achaya that the reference to meat is an entirely other one, which merely mentions eating meat with rice. This is the shabby state of scholarship that is being proposed as an alternative. In contrast, Alan Davidson was a prolific food historian, the founder editor in 1979 of Petits Propos Culinaires, the journal of food history, and the convenor of Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery, the author of many books. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 12:50, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
It is not just me who thinks Achaya's book is problematic. Here is the review of the book in the L. A. Times, which specifically addresses pilaf: Perry, Charles (December 15, 1994), "Annual Cookbook Issue : BOOK REVIEW : An Armchair Guide to the Indian Table : INDIAN FOOD: A Historical Companion By K. T. Achaya (Oxford University Press: 1994; $35; 290 pp.)", L A Times
The other flaw is more serious. Achaya has clearly read a lot about Indian food, but it was in what historians call secondary sources. In other words, he's mostly reporting what other people have concluded from the primary evidence. Rarely, if ever, does he go to the original data to verify their conclusions.
This is a dangerous practice, particularly in India, because certain Indian scholars like to claim that everything in the world originated in India a long time ago. Unfortunately, Achaya makes no attempt to winnow the wheat from the chaff. He'll quote from a serious scholarly work such as Om Prakash's "Food and Drinks in Ancient India," and then a few pages away he'll blithely repeat daydreams like: The Latin word for olive oil comes from the Tamil word for sesame, there was a direct land connection between India and Africa 250,000 years ago, the Aztecs and Mayas worshiped Indian gods, and the inhabitants of Easter Island used a script that resembles that of the ancient Indian city of Harappa.
Achaya even invents one or two myths of his own. He says there is evidence that south Indians were making pilaf 2,000 years ago, but if you look up the book he footnotes, you find that the Old Tamil word pulavu had nothing to do with pilaf. It meant raw meat or fish.
Fortunately, there's not much of this sort of dubious information, and it's concentrated in the two chapters on prehistoric India (there are also some wild tales in the chapters on Indian medicine and New World ingredients). It's a shame that there's any, though, because when you talk about Indian food--or India itself--there's so much gee-whiz stuff that's really true."
Please note that this is consistent with my post above. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:50, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm troubled by this addition to the article. The cited text doesn't seem particularly reliable (a recipe book duly embellished) and if Alexander's troops actually brought back the recipe of pilaf, then there must be more to it than this "reportedly" throwaway line. Did Plutarch, for example, mention pilaf in his histories? Did Arrian say something about the troops being enamored with pilaf? Is there some Greek dish that can be traced back to this much traveled pilaf? There are, after all, limited extant accounts of Alexander's conquests so we should be able to attribute it better. If not, we should just chuck it out. -- regentspark ( comment) 19:40, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
Please note the following sources for the apocryphal tales about Alexander's pilafs: "tutmac a Turkish word meaning NOODLES which in one form or another is found in the remotest corners of the Turkish-speaking world, from the Tatars on the middle Volga to the Salars in Gansu province, China, and the isolated pagan Turkish nationalities of the Altai mountains. In his I I th-century dictionary of Turkish dialects, Mahmud al-Kashghari recorded a pleasant and quite unbelievable folk-tale about how tutmach was invented at the behest of Alexander the Great, whom he refers to by his Koranic name, Dhu al-Qarnain:
When Dhu al-Qarnain emerged from Zulumat [the Land of Darkness where the sun disappears when it sets, and the Fountain of Youth is to be found], his people had little food and complained to him of hun-ger, and said to him, 'Bizni tutma ach; that is 'Do not keep us here hungry, let us go so that we can return to our homes: He consulted the wise men on that subject so that this food might be produced, tutmach. It strengthens the body, reddens the cheeks and is quickly digested, and after the tutmach is eaten, the broth is drunk several-fold. When the Turks saw that, tutmach was named, its root being tutma ach, that is to not cause hunger.
In Xinjiang the modern Uyghurs tell the exact same story about PILAF (specifying that the wise men were Aristotle, Socrates, Hippocrates, and Plato). This reflects the fact that pilaf has assumed the role of the grand dish of hospitality, which tutmach had enjoyed in the Middle Ages. cited to Davidson, Alan (2014), The Oxford Companion to Food, Oxford University Press, pp. 840–, ISBN 978-0-19-967733-7
"It was inevitable that the British conquest of India and creation of such a massive addition to her empire should invite comparison with Alexander, much encouraged by rich local legend about kinship to Alexander and the Greeks by local tribes and leaders, and indeed the blue-eyed, fair-haired appearance of the Kalash (in the Chitral valley of Pakistan), a trait often observed and similarly interpreted by earlier travellers!' India was the first producer of rice, so we need not dwell on the claim that it was Alexander who in-troduced it (pilaf=plov) to Samarkand." cited to Boardman, John (2019), Alexander the Great: From His Death to the Present Day, Princeton University Press, pp. 102–, ISBN 978-0-691-18175-2 Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
just to exhibit how dubious this guy's edits are lets take an example
Descriptions of the basic technique appear in thirteenth-century Arab cookbooks, although the name pulao is not used. The word itself is medieval Farsi, and the dish may have been created in the early sixteenth century at the Safavid court in Persia. ... Although dishes combining rice, meat and spices were prepared in ancient times, the technique of first sautéing the rice in ghee and then cooking it slowly to keep the grains separate probably came later with the Mughals." Sen, Colleen Taylor (2014), Feasts and Fasts: A History of Food in India, Reaktion Books, pp. 164–5, ISBN 978-1-78023-391-8
i just came across this dubious sources he listed in the article and to be honest, his own sources are enough to expose this biased man, atleast should have the guts to mention these facts in the article . i always thought FF's sources are too dubious to even waste a breath, but this is just shocking to say the least.
the whole debate started from thirteenth-century Arab cookbooks mentioned by a british/western author Alan Davidson, dubious source doesnt mention this very crucial fact.
I don't have an issue with the sources saying that the origin of the word comes from the Indian word "Pulaka" meaning ball of rice, but as you can see from the above references, the origin of the dish is Iranian. Please see page 624 of this book [2] The Oxford Companion to Food where it clearly states this,
QUOTE: "Since the word has no credible Persian etymology, it might be Indian. However, there is no evidence that rice was cooked by this technique in India before the Muslim invasions, and Indians themselves associate pilaf-making with Muslim cities such as Hyderabad, Lucknow, and Delhi."
So we can keep the etymology as being derived from the Indian word "Pulaka" (meaning ball of rice), but in accordance with the references, the dish itself should be stated as Iranian/Persian origin. This makes sense as Basmati rice (used in Persian cooking) originates from the Indian subcontinent, but the actual technique of making Pilaf is 100% Iranian/Persian. Researcherandanalyst (talk) 18:41, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
and this is guy's own comments above, self contradicting himself
Please note that the book by K. T. Achya, Indian food: A Historical Companion, Oxford University Press India, 1998, may be less than reliable. The author has used a wide variety of sources, some quite old. True Achya mentions the Mahabharata, but he gives the name of the dish too, and it doesn't sound anything like "pilaf" or "pilau." He says: "The Mahabharata mentions "pishthaudana," a dish of rice cooked with mince meat.
this guy is getting badly exposed through his own dubious sources and his own biased arguments.
regards
175.137.72.188 ( talk) 21:32, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
There are some reoccuring issues with the lead section. First, I do not know why it continues to be erased that pilaf can be cooked in water, and may be served plain. There is not only one correct recipe for pilaf. Broth is less common then it was historically and many people cook in water now when broth is not available. The omission of broth does not make the dish not a pilaf. Recipes change over time and this article covers past and present. In present, making pilaf with water is very common. Second, I am sorry for removing pilau. I did not know this was a synonym in British English. I have made changes to make this clear that it is a synonym. Pilau in the United States is used often for pilafs from Afghanistan or made by Bukharian cuisine, though in regional cuisines it overlaps sometimes with plovs. However, it is never used for a Turkish pilau and this meaning is not known to readers who were not familiar with details of British English. Please make a note about any problems and we can try to make a compromise version. Shofet tsaddiq ( talk) 00:06, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Fowler&fowler You keep repeating that " You don't understand encyclopedic writing, but you are insisting on writing your home made ad hoc version". Respectfully, everything I am adding is supported by citations. You can't use ad hoc correctly in a sentence but you want to give advice about encyclopedic writing to others, ok, please explain here what you mean by "encyclopedic writing". Shofet tsaddiq ( talk) 00:14, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Let me suggest that you not take me on when it comes to the English language. You don't know enough. OED ad hoc B. adj. Created or done for a particular purpose; that answers a specific need or demand, rather than in accordance with a general policy, rule, etc. Examples:
[1853 C. C. F. Greville Mem. (1887) I. iii. ii. 51 There are already symptoms of a possible combination ad hoc.] 1879 Time Apr. 3 The special matter that brought about the ad hoc departure from the Lawrentian policy. 1904 Fabian News Aug. 29/1 A report..on the total abolition of ad hoc bodies was read. 1948 ‘N. Shute’ No Highway 2 Short-term ad hoc experiments to solve a particular problem. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:42, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
There are more sources: Joy of Cooking, Francis Farmer Cookbook, 19th century Good Housekeeping for bulgur pilau, Margaret Fulton, The American Heart Association. This article is not only about historical recipes discussed by Davidson in theory of origins. It is ok to make this mistake, but I find you are very rude and very aggressive by saying "Let me suggest that you not take me on when it comes to the English language. You don't know enough." You are not making here any reasonable argument to remove this supported content. Shofet tsaddiq ( talk) 01:12, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
You added the sentence you are calling unencyclopedic here yourself [6]. I think you have been here for 12 years then you should have been stopped by now for scaring away new editors. Please do not delete my content, I have checked references before I added it. Shofet tsaddiq ( talk) 03:04, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
BTW, pilau is not a synonym of pilaf, as you state above; rather, it is the spelling of the same word in British English. Just as pajamas (AmE) is spelled paijama (BrE). The best compromise consistent with the sources I can come up with: Pilaf ( US spelling), or pilau ( UK spelling) is rice dish or, in some regions, a wheat dish, whose recipe usually involves cooking in stock, adding spices, and other ingredients such as meat, [1] [note 4] and employing some technique for achieving cooked grains that do not adhere." This is as far as I will go in engaging a tendentious new editor. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 03:27, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
The pilaf entry in the Oxford Companion to Food has been cited in this article and this talk page as having being written by Alan Davidson. In fact, the 3rd edition has been published after Davidson's death, and is edited by Tom Jaine. The pilaf entry is authored by food historian
Charles Perry, who has also made contributions to
Alan Davidson’s
Petits Propos Culinaires and to
The Oxford Companion to Food. The writes a food history column for the LA Times. The pilaf entry should be cited as:
Perry, Charles (2014), "Pilaf", in Jaine, Tom (editor) (ed.),
The Oxford Companion to Food by Alan Davidson, 3rd Edition, Oxford University Press, pp. 624–625,
ISBN
978-0-19-967733-7 {{
citation}}
: |editor=
has generic name (
help)
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
19:47, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Highpeaks35: It is best that you not dicker with words or nickel and dime lists in the lead. The lead has taken a long time to get right. You might be attempting to change things here and there in good faith, but your edits are not helpful. I request that you ask here rather than increasing the work of those who maintain the article. Best regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:25, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
The article includes this line: "employing some technique for achieving cooked grains that do not adhere"
I believe, based on the linked source/comment, that "adhere" is referring to keeping the rice from sticking together. But the word "adhere" is commonly used in other senses - such as, to adhere to a set of rules. I actually don't think the meaning of "adhere" in this sentence is totally obvious. As someone who is not a cooking or rice expert, at first I thought it was referring to some set of rules for what pilaf is/how it should be cooked, instead of about the physical sticking together of grains of rice.
Perhaps we could consider using a different word or way of phrasing this, if anyone has any ideas.
- KaJunl ( talk) 23:37, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
I just realized that IP editors, among which are notably @ 2A00:23C4:7889:4001:CD56:74B1:CCCE:62FF: have been removing sourced content and changing the preferred spelling (which is pilaf (the US spelling), followed by pilau (the UK and Commonwealth). The main caretaker of this page user:IamNotU has not been active since last October. But there are others: user:RegentsPark, user:Gotitbro, and user:Serols who are around. Please continue to keep an eye on the page. (We went through much heartache to get it right once.) Thanks. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 04:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
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Historic pulao only had vegetables and rice, no meat. The meat (especially beef/pork) were added in as the dish traveled west. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.73.28.110 ( talk) 14:39, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
On the history section, there are clear policy violations beginning on this paragraph:
"Uzbek Pilav – there are so many types, tastes and legends of this national dish. It is the king and masterpiece of Uzbek cuisine. No single fest or family event is celebrated without pilav. Each region of Uzbekistan cooks its unique type of pilav, as well as there are its own type of pilav for each event. Although it is not possible to display every single type of Uzbek pilav in a single page, we have listed here some of the famous types of pilav, with related photos and descriptions, that is worth to taste on your next trip to Uzbekistan."
83.165.97.105 ( talk) 01:31, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
The P-dish is a basic rice dish. It is over ambitious to assume that this simple rice dish would have to originate in one place and spread. People in any rice and spice producing region would have figured out how to make flavored rice in myriad variations. It does seem apparent that everywhere the same dish is adapted to what was locally grow-able. The dish would have been prepare-able long before Alexander.
The origin of the word however could have a verifiable record in literature, possibly might be greek/turkish/persian/sanskrit/any of the oldest languages etc. There are many words that span Germanic, central asian, Indic, given indo-arabic-germanic trade-routes. The use of a word might catch on. However, in this article there isn't any citation or proof of the earliest use of the word of the P-dish.
This article needs a rewrite. Just explain what the dish really is and subsections as how each region has its own adaptation alphabetically in a neutral manner. The Etymology if cite-able, could be moved into its own subsection. The history is just concocted and might as well be deleted. Hgkamath ( talk) 06:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
to the poster that says Plov is not used in English, Hes obviously not from queens,which has a large (Jewish)Uzbek comunity, Plov isnt just generic, it has a special recipe and a specific taste, trust me ive eaten it at over 20 restaurants in rego park. Shwarma,Donner & Gyro all have their own article despite similarity to eachother because they all have defined "standard tastes" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.241.66 ( talk) 16:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Method: fry spices - cardamom, cloves, cinamon - and onion; add DRY rice and fry until it becomes white, rather than pearly; then add liquid - preferably stock; cook until tender, adding more liquid as necessary. [Source: little old lady in Bombay Resaurant, Manchester ~1959] (anonymous) moved here by -- Jpbrenna 19:13, 21 May 2005 (UTC) until we can move it to Wikirecipes.
The document says the following:
The word pilau is of Persian origin. However, in modern Persian, it is pronounced polo (پلو), with the first syllabe short, and the second long. Note also the relationship to Spanish 'paella', so it covers the whole extent of the Arab empire in its prime. The pilaf was probably a standard Moorish method for cooking rice - with no wasted water, important in desert regions like North Africa. It was likely introduced to the Balkans during the Ottoman period.
Yet the page for Paella says:
The name paella is the word for "frying pan" in Valencian/Catalan (from Latin patella). However, the dish has become so popular in Spanish that the word paellera is now usually used for the pan and paella almost exclusively for the dish. Paella is pronounced IPA: /pa'eʎa/, approximately "pah-EH-yah".
What's more, I distinctly remember reading in a tour book to a Central Asian country (Uzbekistan, I believe), that the word originates from greek Poluv, meaning "mixed" and was spread during Macedonian conquests. Is there any confirmation on the pilau origins? User:Bobby Isosceles
The page only gives a short discription of what pilaf is and to me seems like it is pretty much just about Persian rice dishes, not really very informative if you want to learn what rice pilaf is.
Plov is not used in English, but pilaf is a common food item in stores. - Iopq 06:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
What's the difference between Pilaf and Biryani, since they both seem to involve the same methods of preparation/ingredients, as well as originating in the Iran-Central Asia- northern India region? Le Anh-Huy 08:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Biryani is par-cooked in water, then cooked in a mixture of yogurt, spices, and oil. Pilaf isn't cooked in yogurt. Biryani is much harder to make. Themissinglint ( talk) 00:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
In Biryani, both the curry sauce (with meat) and the rice are cooked separately. Then layers of rice and sauce are laid in one big pot and steamed. After that it is mixed. Some rice are then white and some are colored. In Pulao, a much lighter sauce is cooked first and then rice is cooked in this sauce. yasirniazkhan ( talk) 13:30, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Pilau is also a very popular dish in East Africa, though it has not been mentioned in the text. The dish has been brought there by indian settlers and arabic merchants, today it is a dish prepared and served on celebrations and other festivities by africans and Indians alike.-- 80.78.216.88 ( talk) 21:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
We have cooked from this Cypriat cook book for many years. I am now intetrested in buckwheat as an ingredient but it is not wheat at all. But pnigouri is a wheat, or is it? So could I use buckwheat in place of pnigouri is my question. 78.146.141.145 ( talk) 11:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Maybe we could note the spanish paella here? The same idea, close technologies - and almost the same names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.224.214.145 ( talk) 19:08, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Tahdigh should have a Wikipedia page. It is one of the most important pieces of Persian culture. I'm not saying I want to make the page, but, you know, make it a red link or whatnot.
the word pulao is derived from sanskrit palanna;pal(meat)+anna(rice),not your pulaka. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.99.5.66 ( talk) 10:20, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
This article contains so much original research, so many uncited claims and so much non-encyclopedian information that I deemed it beyond repair. Consequently I initiated a complete rewrite. I suggest appropriate information (images etc) be gradually incorporated from the old article into this one. ✎ HannesP · talk 11:40, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
I would suggest that the Oxford or Penguin Companion to Food by Alan Davidson be added as a reference. I'm talking about the 2002 edition ISBN 014-200163-5 (there is a more recent edition but I don't have it). The 2002 edition has an interesting and authoritative article on Pilaf by written by Charles Perry, a leading authority on Medieval Arab Cookery. Although I have not looked at it, another possible authoritative reference is Medieval Arab Cookery by Charles Perry, A.J. Arberry and Maxine Rodinson. -- Bjdoyle ( talk) 05:30, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
It may be just my personal taste, but I find that the previous illustration in the infobox had a much higher quality than the new one.
Is there a deeper reason for the change apart from the aesthetics? -- Off-shell ( talk) 21:17, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
what about adding it? http://www.turkmenkitchen.com/en/turkmen-pilaf/ and http://around-the-world-in-eighty-dishes.blogspot.com.tr/2012/06/3-turkmen-pilaf-plov.html
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Such deletions [1] of oxford, cambridge, etc. references can be considered as vandalism. Please do not do it. Researcherandanalyst ( talk) 01:44, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Pilau most likely originated in Iran, and it traveled to Europe and South Asia after the expansion of Islam.
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a Persian word meaning rice boiled with meats and spices."
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Islam gave to Indian cookery its masterpiece dishes from the Middle East. These include pilau (from Iranian pollo and Turkish pilaf), samossa (Turkish sambussak), shir kurma (dates and milk), kebabs, sherbet, stuffed vegetables, oven bread, and confections (halvah).
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Pilaf originated in Persia, but then rice cooked in flavoured broths is a widespread phenomenon!
Pilau likely originated in Iran, and it traveled to Europe and South Asia after the expansion of lslam
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PILAU (pullao/pulao/pilaf) Rice-based dishes have their origin in Persia, from where they spread during the time of the Persian Empire, hence the many variations in spelling. The difference between this dish and biriani is that, in a pilau, the rice is boiled along with the vegetables, poultry, meat or seafood until tender, whereas in a biriani the various ingredients are par-cooked and then assembled in layers.
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The low-country rice dish par excellence is "pilau," as the dish more commonly known as pilaf is called in Persian. The technique, like the dish, originated in Persia, according to Hess
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However, there is no evidence that rice was cooked by this technique in India before the Muslim invasions, and Indians themselves associate pilaf-making with Muslim cities such as Hyderabad, Lucknow, and Delhi
The ancient Hindu text Mahabharata from the Indian subcontinent mentions rice and meat cooked together, and the word "pulao" or "pallao" is used to refer to the dish in ancient Sanskrit works such as the Yājñavalkya Smṛti. [1] [2]
Hi Highpeaks35. I have no interest in Pilaf whatsoever, and I have zero opinion about the origin of the dish, but you are clearly deleting proper referenced material here in order to push your POV. If you have clear reputable sources stating that Pilaf is of Indian origin, please provide them, with links and quotes. So far, I don't see anything like that, appart from the vague sentence on terminology and tradition above: nowhere is it stated that pilaf originated in India. Once you have this kind of reference, the best you can probably obtain is to have a balanced sentence explaining that some authors also consider that Pilaf may have been Indian in origin, but certainly not delete all the references you don't like. "Reference overkill" is not a reason to delete all references and put your POV instead. You are also making false statements and insulting edit summaries, like "Junk references; could not even find a mention. Take it to the talk page" [3], but finally recognized that the references are OK once you were challenged and you actually checked "after checking the references, I have no issues with it" [4]: this is very improper. You have to cool down, here and on several articles. पाटलिपुत्र ( talk) 06:36, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I have now changed the article to reflect my rewrite of the lead, consented to by others above, but as amended in the India section by Highpeaks35. Best regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:21, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Basmati rice: Perhaps the most famous aromatic rice, basmati is grown in India and Pakistan. It has a nutlike fragrance while cooking and a delicate, almost buttery flavor. Unlike other types of rice, the grains elongate much more than they plump as they cook. Lower in starch than other long-grain types, basmati grains turn out fluffy and separate. Although it is most commonly used in Indian cooking, basmati can also be substituted for regular rice in any favorite recipe. Both brown and white basmati rice are available.
I have altered the lead sentence to reflect two relatively reliable sources, the Oxford English Dictionary, 3rd ed, 2006, available online with subscription, and the Oxford Companion to Food, 3rd edition (OUP, 2014), both of which refer only to broad sub-regions of Asia, and both are quoted in the two footnotes in the lead. There is no reason to add anything more, especially by way of adding the contributions of present-day nations. Older editions of the OED were more geographically specific in attribution of origin, the later ones are not, as the first footnote in the lead demonstrates. I have also changed the Infobox image for reasons you will find in my edit summaries.
Parenthetically, the dish is of diverse origin, as such a dish necessarily has to be. As rice was domesticated in South Asia before it was in West Asia, there was, most likely, some tradition of cooking rice in stock in South Asia, which was adapted to a unique style of cooking in West Asia, in which the individual grains remain separate. The latter method was introduced back into South Asia after the Muslim conquests in the 13th century. Of course, we cannot state this in the Wikipedia article as it is speculation. The domestication of food and evolution of cuisine are complicated issues, and certainties of one age give way to uncertainties of the next, as more powerful, and more multidisciplinary, tools become available. In other words, if multiple authors with diverse expertise in DNA analyses, archaeology, paleo-meteorology, historical linguists, are writing scholarly articles on the domestication of one grain, older histories of all food, written by a single author, will be becoming less reliable. Best regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:41, 9 January 2019 (UTC) Revised: Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:04, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
most likely, some tradition of cooking rice in stock in South Asia, which was adapted to a unique style of cooking in West Asia, in which the individual grains remain separate. The latter method was introduced back into South Asia after the Muslim conquests in the 13th century.
References
Food was rich and varied in south India in the first few centuries ad. As observed above, there were at least five varieties of rice. 183 Rice was of course mostly eaten boiled, but sometimes fried aromatics were sprinkled on it. 19a Dressing with tamarind gave puli-kari (puli-sadam), 203 and further with sesame seeds and sugar yielded chitrannam. 20b Rice could be cooked with a pulse (the present pongal), 21 or cooked with ‘fatted meat’, 22 or ‘well-cooked with ghee’. 233 There is a poetic description of ‘rice which looked like jasmine buds, the grains elongated like fingers, and separate from one another’.
washing rice before boiling, Parboiling rice, aging rice was also well known
Sanskrit work of the 6th century ad, the Dasaku-maracharita of Dandin, 24 relates the tale by which Gomini, a lass of the Dravidian country, found a husband by the economical way in which she dealt with a quantity of paddy. All the steps in the processing of paddy are elegantly and lovingly described: grinding, drying, removing the husk, and then polishing with a pounder (whose end is covered with iron plates), followed by winnowing the grains, and then washing them before cooking in boiling water. 24 Rice kept for three years was considered healthy. 17b Pulangalarisi was paddy parboiled by immersion in hot water, drying and pounding. Both ageing and parboiling could have been means based on experience for hardening rice, and the latter gave, on milling, a higher yield of whole grains, and of a better nutritive quality,than did raw rice.
soaking of rice was also a common method
Aval was rice that was soaked, and roasted in sand until about to puff, followed by flattening in a pounder. Soaked rice was puf¬ fed to pori by throwing it on hot sand. Both aval and pori were eaten after soaking in milk.
{{{1}}} 60.52.50.71 ( talk) 07:03, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
I don't think you understand what reliable sources mean on Wikipedia. I have no proposal. I already have a long standing version in place in the article.
I am simply summarizing what the reliable secondary sources say. Ancient Indian sources are not secondary sources. They cannot be used on Wikipedia. Parboiling of rice is practiced all over southeast Asia and China (where rice was first domesticated), but what they make is not pilaf or pilau. The key step in the preparation of a pilaf is the last in which the half cooked rice is placed in a dish which is covered with cloth before being closed with the lid. The dish is then placed on a source of low heat for half and hour, sometimes in an oven. The reliable secondary ones are very clear. Rice and its cooking may have gone from India to the Middle East, but the pilaf or pilau is a Middle Eastern method of preparing rice that was introduced into India by the Muslims. Here are two sources:
On page 624:
"pilaf or pilau, a Middle Eastern method of cooking rice so that every grain remains separate, and the name of the resulting dish. Usually a flavouring such as meat (usually lamb) or vegetables is cooked along with it, but plain rice, known as sade pilav (Turkish), rut mufal-fal (Arabic), or chelo (Farsi), can also be cooked by this technique. The word comes from the medieval Farsi pulaw, now pronounced polo. Most European languages have borrowed the Turkish form pilav, which is clearly related to the Russian and C. Asian ploy (a term which coexists in the C. Asian Republics with palaw). Since the word has no credible Persian etymology, it might be Indian. However, there is no evidence that rice was cooked by this technique in India before the Muslim invasions, and Indians themselves associate pilaf-making with Muslim cities such as Hyderabad, Lucknow, and Delhi. .... The first descriptions of the pilaf technique appear in the 13th-century Arabic books Kitab al-Tabikh and Kitab al-Witsla ila al Habib, written in Baghdad and Syria, respectively. They show the technique in its entirety, including the cloth beneath the lid, and describe still-current flavourings such as meat, pulses, and fruit. The Arab name, ruzz mufalfal, means 'peppered rice; but not with any implication that it is flavoured with pepper. The 13th-century recipes say to cook the rice 'until it is mufalfal; showing that the word refers to the appearance of the rice, plumped up in grains as separate as peppercorns. " "
and again on page 625:
In India pulao is associated with the cookery of the Moghul courts (see MOGHUL CUISINE) and extremely elaborate recipes with flowery Persian names (such as Nazar pasand, thousand delights) are current. The flavourings are such things as whole game birds, the yogurt-and cream-enriched stews called KORMA, and many combinations of fruits and nuts. Much about the spicy and extravagant flavourings may be characteristically Indian, but the pilaf cooking method contrasts with the local traditions of S. India, where the recipes do not aim at keeping the grains of rice separate. The typical indigenous rice dishes are porridges, puddings, and cakes made from ground rice."
In response you can't throw page 54 of Achaya at me, especially when he is bluntly saying about Muslims above. I have no proposal. The lead of the article has already been carefully edited. There is nothing that you have brought to the table that I don't already know. I bought Achaya 20 years ago. I know what is in it. Please revert to the careful NPOV version that was already in the lead. Best regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 10:41, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
The first known recipe for pilaf is by the tenth-century Persian scholar Avicenna (Ibn Sīnā), who in his books on medical sciences dedicated a whole section to preparing various dishes, including several types of pilaf. In doing so, he described advantages and disadvantages of every item used for preparing the dish. Accordingly, Persians consider Ibn Sina to be the "father" of modern pilaf.
but the pilaf cooking method contrasts with the local traditions of S. India, where the recipes do not aim at keeping the grains of rice separate.
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same book of K.T. Achaya, what you are quoting me are plain books, which contain zero historic references, you need to provide that, you have not bothered to answer my arguments instead tried to bring more references, i can do that as well. your own references are contradicting each other, was pilaf recipe first given by avicenna in the tenth or arabs in the thirteenth century? 175.137.72.188 ( talk) 15:27, 9 February 2019 (UTC)The third marriage feast comes from Naishadha Charita (dated to the 12th century AD) , and is written by a poet who was clearly also a gourmet. There was boiled rice served hot, unbroken, fragrant and well-cooked, with each grain separate.
If Hinduism has given a high spiritual content to the meal, it has paid little attention to the art of cooking. Boiled cereals and griddle bread, stewed vegetables, and pulses had been the usual diet since the beginning of Indian civilization.
paella, which evolved from pulao, and pilaf and meat patties that started out as samosa or sambusak.
References
Please expand the collapsed box below to view details of eight high quality sources which together make a clear case that the style of cooking rice, that we call pilaf, or pilau, or pulao, originated in West- or Central Asia, not in India. Rice and its cultivation did spread from India to Iran many millenniums ago, but this unique form of cooking rice was brought back to India by the Muslims. Sources 1 and 8, in particular, make explicit mention of the book of KT Achaya, Indian Food: A Historical Companion, whose every obscure footnote is being milked by nationalist India-POV editors on this page to claim an Indian origin for pilaf.
Expand to see reliable secondary sources, including 1) Sen, Colleen Taylor (2014),
Feasts and Fasts: A History of Food in India, Reaktion Books, pp. 164–5,
ISBN
978-1-78023-391-8 2) Roger, Delphine (2000), "The Middle East and South Asia (in Chapter: History and Culture of Food and Drink in Asia)", in Kiple, Kenneth F.; Ornelas, Kriemhild Coneè (eds) (ed.),
The Cambridge World History of Food, vol. Volume 2, Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press, pp. 1140–1150,
ISBN
978-0-521-40215-6 {{
citation}} : |editor= has generic name (
help); |volume= has extra text (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (
link) 3) Sengupta, Jayanta (2014), "India", in Freedman, Paul; Chaplin, Joyce E.; Albala, Ken (eds) (ed.),
Food in Time and Place: The American Historical Association Companion to Food History, Univ of California Press, pp. 68–94,
ISBN
978-0-520-27745-8 {{
citation}} : |editor= has generic name (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (
link) 4) Davidson, Alan (2014),
The Oxford Companion to Food, Oxford University Press, pp. 624–625,
ISBN
978-0-19-967733-7 5) American Institute for Cancer Research (2005),
The New American Plate Cookbook: Recipes for a Healthy Weight and a Healthy Life, University of California Press, pp. 158–,
ISBN
978-0-520-24234-0 6) Collingham, Elizabeth M. (2007),
Curry: A Tale of Cooks and Conquerors, Oxford University Press, pp. 25–26,
ISBN
978-0-19-532001-5 7) Kraig, Bruce (2013),
The Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America, Oxford University Press USA, p. 140,
ISBN
978-0-19-973496-2 8)
Nandy, Ashis (2004),
"The Changing Popular Culture of Indian Food: Preliminary Notes", South Asia Research, 24 (1): 9–19,
doi:
10.1177/0262728004042760,
ISSN
0262-7280
|
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1 Sen, Colleen Taylor (2014), Feasts and Fasts: A History of Food in India, Reaktion Books, pp. 164–5, ISBN 978-1-78023-391-8
2. Roger, Delphine (2000), "The Middle East and South Asia (in Chapter: History and Culture of Food and Drink in Asia)", in Kiple, Kenneth F.; Ornelas, Kriemhild Coneè (eds) (ed.),
The Cambridge World History of Food, vol. Volume 2, Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press, pp. 1140–1150,
ISBN
978-0-521-40215-6
3. Sengupta, Jayanta (2014), "India", in Freedman, Paul; Chaplin, Joyce E.; Albala, Ken (eds) (ed.),
Food in Time and Place: The American Historical Association Companion to Food History, Univ of California Press, pp. 68–94,
ISBN
978-0-520-27745-8
4. Davidson, Alan (2014), The Oxford Companion to Food, Oxford University Press, pp. 624–625, ISBN 978-0-19-967733-7
'5. American Institute for Cancer Research (2005), The New American Plate Cookbook: Recipes for a Healthy Weight and a Healthy Life, University of California Press, pp. 158–, ISBN 978-0-520-24234-0
6. Collingham, Elizabeth M. (2007), Curry: A Tale of Cooks and Conquerors, Oxford University Press, pp. 25–26, ISBN 978-0-19-532001-5
7. Kraig, Bruce (2013), The Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America, Oxford University Press USA, p. 140, ISBN 978-0-19-973496-2
8. Nandy, Ashis (2004), "The Changing Popular Culture of Indian Food: Preliminary Notes", South Asia Research, 24 (1): 9–19, doi: 10.1177/0262728004042760, ISSN 0262-7280
|
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:09, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
Conclusion: There are eight high quality sources which together make a clear case that the style of cooking rice, that we call pilaf, or pilau, or pulao, originated in West- or Central Asia, not in India. Rice and its cultivation did spread from India to Iran many millenniums ago, but this unique form of cooking rice was brought back to India by the Muslims. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:16, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
The case that pilau/pilaf originated in India turns on a footnote to a footnote in KT Achaya's book. The footnote is to a 1926 book about Ancient Jaffna (in Sri Lanka) and the footnote's footnote is to a Sangam literature poem in classical Tamil, almost 2,000 years ago. No WP forum will consider this fluke form of causality to form a reliable argument, let alone one which uses old if not ancient sources. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:16, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Expand to see one source and its footnote, and footnote to the footnote: Achaya, K.T. (1994), Indian Food Tradition A Historical Companion, Oxford University Press, p. 45, ISBN 0195628454 |
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1. Achaya, K.T. (1994), Indian Food Tradition A Historical Companion, Oxford University Press India, p. 45, ISBN 0195628454
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[1] fluke as well? you are not answering my questions/objections/arguments you just want to impose your POV, i have already commented on your sources, please read them and answer my objections. 175.137.72.188 ( talk) 07:37, 11 February 2019 (UTC)The third marriage feast comes from Naishadha Charita (dated to the 12th century AD) , and is written by a poet who was clearly also a gourmet. There was boiled rice served hot, unbroken, fragrant and well-cooked, with each grain separate.
References
this article is manufactured for european/western readers, any non european reader must avoid this topic, i have already highlighted how european sources presented here are biased/sectarian, this article is no less biased in favour of really pathetic european scholarship.
the gest of this article is summarised below;
If Hinduism has given a high spiritual content to the meal, it has paid little attention to the art of cooking. Boiled cereals and griddle bread, stewed vegetables, and pulses had been the usual diet since the beginning of Indian civilization. Roger, Delphine (2000), "The Middle East and South Asia (in Chapter: History and Culture of Food and Drink in Asia)", in Kiple, Kenneth F.; Ornelas, Kriemhild Coneè (eds) (ed.), The Cambridge World History of Food, vol. Volume 2, Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press, pp. 1140–1150, ISBN 978-0-521-40215-6
{{ citation}}
:|editor=
has generic name ( help);|volume=
has extra text ( help)CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list ( link)
regards
175.137.72.188 ( talk) 14:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Has anyone considered a separate article on pilau which is a type of pilav, not another word for pilav? There is a huge amount of content just on this talk page that could be used to create a new article. Shofet tsaddiq ( talk) 04:20, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Persians had developed a more refined form of the dish, called polow, in which meats and/or vegetables were mixed into the rice, or more frequently, layered with the rice and then steamed. Polow is an art form in Iran—cooks strive to produce light, fluffy grains while retaining the natural flavor. .... The Ottoman Turks, at some point during their passage through central Asia, probably encountered the rice and meat dish there, which they pronounced pilay. In any case, pilav subsequently became a basic of the Turkish kitchen, part of everyday cooking as well as a ubiquitous dish at special occasions. ... The predominant varieties of rice in Turkey are medium-grain and short-grain. For pilav, Turks prefer medium-grain rice varieties, notably Baldo (longer and flatter than most medium-grain varieties, and originally from Italy) and the native Osmancik. They also import a rice from Egypt called "pilav rice" or "Egyptian rice." Because of the extra starch in medium-grain rice, the grains normally stick together when cooked, a state undesirable for pilaus. Consequently, a slightly different cooking technique evolved—no one knows who developed it—of first briefly sautéing (kavurma "roasted") the grain in hot fat before adding the liquid, a process that helps to keep the kernels separate and also gives them more flavor. Frying the rice in oil is a Jewish practice, as it allows the dish to be served at a meat meal; the Turks and Arabs typically use clarified butter (suzme yag). After cooking, pilau is always left to steam (dein-lemek), covered, for at least ten minutes—some cooks steam it for up to one hour—to achieve the desired.
Shofet tsaddiq ( talk · contribs), you might not be aware of the Wikipedi ainjunction to shun original research and synthesis. Already in your hurried edits you have done both and done so prolifically. Please read those Wikipedia guideline pages and please remove the flawed text; otherwise, I will, for now, be forced to add two more tags to the article. Fowler&fowler «Talk»
Again, whatever your compulsions and immediate history for alighting on this page, you don't have the skills, nor the experience yet, for writing such an article. You are juggling bits of undigested information. Such editing pushed beyond a point becomes disruptive. Your lead sentence, "Pilaf is term used for rice dishes where the desired consistency of the grain is separated, individal grains, without clumping." has errors of syntax, style, and coherence. Sorry to be blunt, but you don't seem to be listening. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 21:08, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
K. T. Achaya is an unreliable source, full of errors, written by a retired researcher in oil kernels with no experience of history, one who is wildly misinterpreting the sources, who has no publication history in Food History. One such doozy is the fantasy that the method of cooking rice in stock in which the grains separate, and to which meat and other ingredients are added later, as in Pilaf, was present in ancient India 2000 years go. In fact, he cites a book published in 1926 on Ancient Jaffna (Jaffna is the northern part of Sri Lanka), which itself is footnoting a poem from the Sangam Literature, ca 100 BCE to 100 CE, but which was lost to human history until it was rediscovered by Tamil scholars in the 19th century. It matters little to Mr Achaya that the reference to meat is an entirely other one, which merely mentions eating meat with rice. This is the shabby state of scholarship that is being proposed as an alternative. In contrast, Alan Davidson was a prolific food historian, the founder editor in 1979 of Petits Propos Culinaires, the journal of food history, and the convenor of Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery, the author of many books. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 12:50, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
It is not just me who thinks Achaya's book is problematic. Here is the review of the book in the L. A. Times, which specifically addresses pilaf: Perry, Charles (December 15, 1994), "Annual Cookbook Issue : BOOK REVIEW : An Armchair Guide to the Indian Table : INDIAN FOOD: A Historical Companion By K. T. Achaya (Oxford University Press: 1994; $35; 290 pp.)", L A Times
The other flaw is more serious. Achaya has clearly read a lot about Indian food, but it was in what historians call secondary sources. In other words, he's mostly reporting what other people have concluded from the primary evidence. Rarely, if ever, does he go to the original data to verify their conclusions.
This is a dangerous practice, particularly in India, because certain Indian scholars like to claim that everything in the world originated in India a long time ago. Unfortunately, Achaya makes no attempt to winnow the wheat from the chaff. He'll quote from a serious scholarly work such as Om Prakash's "Food and Drinks in Ancient India," and then a few pages away he'll blithely repeat daydreams like: The Latin word for olive oil comes from the Tamil word for sesame, there was a direct land connection between India and Africa 250,000 years ago, the Aztecs and Mayas worshiped Indian gods, and the inhabitants of Easter Island used a script that resembles that of the ancient Indian city of Harappa.
Achaya even invents one or two myths of his own. He says there is evidence that south Indians were making pilaf 2,000 years ago, but if you look up the book he footnotes, you find that the Old Tamil word pulavu had nothing to do with pilaf. It meant raw meat or fish.
Fortunately, there's not much of this sort of dubious information, and it's concentrated in the two chapters on prehistoric India (there are also some wild tales in the chapters on Indian medicine and New World ingredients). It's a shame that there's any, though, because when you talk about Indian food--or India itself--there's so much gee-whiz stuff that's really true."
Please note that this is consistent with my post above. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:50, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm troubled by this addition to the article. The cited text doesn't seem particularly reliable (a recipe book duly embellished) and if Alexander's troops actually brought back the recipe of pilaf, then there must be more to it than this "reportedly" throwaway line. Did Plutarch, for example, mention pilaf in his histories? Did Arrian say something about the troops being enamored with pilaf? Is there some Greek dish that can be traced back to this much traveled pilaf? There are, after all, limited extant accounts of Alexander's conquests so we should be able to attribute it better. If not, we should just chuck it out. -- regentspark ( comment) 19:40, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
Please note the following sources for the apocryphal tales about Alexander's pilafs: "tutmac a Turkish word meaning NOODLES which in one form or another is found in the remotest corners of the Turkish-speaking world, from the Tatars on the middle Volga to the Salars in Gansu province, China, and the isolated pagan Turkish nationalities of the Altai mountains. In his I I th-century dictionary of Turkish dialects, Mahmud al-Kashghari recorded a pleasant and quite unbelievable folk-tale about how tutmach was invented at the behest of Alexander the Great, whom he refers to by his Koranic name, Dhu al-Qarnain:
When Dhu al-Qarnain emerged from Zulumat [the Land of Darkness where the sun disappears when it sets, and the Fountain of Youth is to be found], his people had little food and complained to him of hun-ger, and said to him, 'Bizni tutma ach; that is 'Do not keep us here hungry, let us go so that we can return to our homes: He consulted the wise men on that subject so that this food might be produced, tutmach. It strengthens the body, reddens the cheeks and is quickly digested, and after the tutmach is eaten, the broth is drunk several-fold. When the Turks saw that, tutmach was named, its root being tutma ach, that is to not cause hunger.
In Xinjiang the modern Uyghurs tell the exact same story about PILAF (specifying that the wise men were Aristotle, Socrates, Hippocrates, and Plato). This reflects the fact that pilaf has assumed the role of the grand dish of hospitality, which tutmach had enjoyed in the Middle Ages. cited to Davidson, Alan (2014), The Oxford Companion to Food, Oxford University Press, pp. 840–, ISBN 978-0-19-967733-7
"It was inevitable that the British conquest of India and creation of such a massive addition to her empire should invite comparison with Alexander, much encouraged by rich local legend about kinship to Alexander and the Greeks by local tribes and leaders, and indeed the blue-eyed, fair-haired appearance of the Kalash (in the Chitral valley of Pakistan), a trait often observed and similarly interpreted by earlier travellers!' India was the first producer of rice, so we need not dwell on the claim that it was Alexander who in-troduced it (pilaf=plov) to Samarkand." cited to Boardman, John (2019), Alexander the Great: From His Death to the Present Day, Princeton University Press, pp. 102–, ISBN 978-0-691-18175-2 Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
just to exhibit how dubious this guy's edits are lets take an example
Descriptions of the basic technique appear in thirteenth-century Arab cookbooks, although the name pulao is not used. The word itself is medieval Farsi, and the dish may have been created in the early sixteenth century at the Safavid court in Persia. ... Although dishes combining rice, meat and spices were prepared in ancient times, the technique of first sautéing the rice in ghee and then cooking it slowly to keep the grains separate probably came later with the Mughals." Sen, Colleen Taylor (2014), Feasts and Fasts: A History of Food in India, Reaktion Books, pp. 164–5, ISBN 978-1-78023-391-8
i just came across this dubious sources he listed in the article and to be honest, his own sources are enough to expose this biased man, atleast should have the guts to mention these facts in the article . i always thought FF's sources are too dubious to even waste a breath, but this is just shocking to say the least.
the whole debate started from thirteenth-century Arab cookbooks mentioned by a british/western author Alan Davidson, dubious source doesnt mention this very crucial fact.
I don't have an issue with the sources saying that the origin of the word comes from the Indian word "Pulaka" meaning ball of rice, but as you can see from the above references, the origin of the dish is Iranian. Please see page 624 of this book [2] The Oxford Companion to Food where it clearly states this,
QUOTE: "Since the word has no credible Persian etymology, it might be Indian. However, there is no evidence that rice was cooked by this technique in India before the Muslim invasions, and Indians themselves associate pilaf-making with Muslim cities such as Hyderabad, Lucknow, and Delhi."
So we can keep the etymology as being derived from the Indian word "Pulaka" (meaning ball of rice), but in accordance with the references, the dish itself should be stated as Iranian/Persian origin. This makes sense as Basmati rice (used in Persian cooking) originates from the Indian subcontinent, but the actual technique of making Pilaf is 100% Iranian/Persian. Researcherandanalyst (talk) 18:41, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
and this is guy's own comments above, self contradicting himself
Please note that the book by K. T. Achya, Indian food: A Historical Companion, Oxford University Press India, 1998, may be less than reliable. The author has used a wide variety of sources, some quite old. True Achya mentions the Mahabharata, but he gives the name of the dish too, and it doesn't sound anything like "pilaf" or "pilau." He says: "The Mahabharata mentions "pishthaudana," a dish of rice cooked with mince meat.
this guy is getting badly exposed through his own dubious sources and his own biased arguments.
regards
175.137.72.188 ( talk) 21:32, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
There are some reoccuring issues with the lead section. First, I do not know why it continues to be erased that pilaf can be cooked in water, and may be served plain. There is not only one correct recipe for pilaf. Broth is less common then it was historically and many people cook in water now when broth is not available. The omission of broth does not make the dish not a pilaf. Recipes change over time and this article covers past and present. In present, making pilaf with water is very common. Second, I am sorry for removing pilau. I did not know this was a synonym in British English. I have made changes to make this clear that it is a synonym. Pilau in the United States is used often for pilafs from Afghanistan or made by Bukharian cuisine, though in regional cuisines it overlaps sometimes with plovs. However, it is never used for a Turkish pilau and this meaning is not known to readers who were not familiar with details of British English. Please make a note about any problems and we can try to make a compromise version. Shofet tsaddiq ( talk) 00:06, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Fowler&fowler You keep repeating that " You don't understand encyclopedic writing, but you are insisting on writing your home made ad hoc version". Respectfully, everything I am adding is supported by citations. You can't use ad hoc correctly in a sentence but you want to give advice about encyclopedic writing to others, ok, please explain here what you mean by "encyclopedic writing". Shofet tsaddiq ( talk) 00:14, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Let me suggest that you not take me on when it comes to the English language. You don't know enough. OED ad hoc B. adj. Created or done for a particular purpose; that answers a specific need or demand, rather than in accordance with a general policy, rule, etc. Examples:
[1853 C. C. F. Greville Mem. (1887) I. iii. ii. 51 There are already symptoms of a possible combination ad hoc.] 1879 Time Apr. 3 The special matter that brought about the ad hoc departure from the Lawrentian policy. 1904 Fabian News Aug. 29/1 A report..on the total abolition of ad hoc bodies was read. 1948 ‘N. Shute’ No Highway 2 Short-term ad hoc experiments to solve a particular problem. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:42, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
There are more sources: Joy of Cooking, Francis Farmer Cookbook, 19th century Good Housekeeping for bulgur pilau, Margaret Fulton, The American Heart Association. This article is not only about historical recipes discussed by Davidson in theory of origins. It is ok to make this mistake, but I find you are very rude and very aggressive by saying "Let me suggest that you not take me on when it comes to the English language. You don't know enough." You are not making here any reasonable argument to remove this supported content. Shofet tsaddiq ( talk) 01:12, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
You added the sentence you are calling unencyclopedic here yourself [6]. I think you have been here for 12 years then you should have been stopped by now for scaring away new editors. Please do not delete my content, I have checked references before I added it. Shofet tsaddiq ( talk) 03:04, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
BTW, pilau is not a synonym of pilaf, as you state above; rather, it is the spelling of the same word in British English. Just as pajamas (AmE) is spelled paijama (BrE). The best compromise consistent with the sources I can come up with: Pilaf ( US spelling), or pilau ( UK spelling) is rice dish or, in some regions, a wheat dish, whose recipe usually involves cooking in stock, adding spices, and other ingredients such as meat, [1] [note 4] and employing some technique for achieving cooked grains that do not adhere." This is as far as I will go in engaging a tendentious new editor. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 03:27, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
The pilaf entry in the Oxford Companion to Food has been cited in this article and this talk page as having being written by Alan Davidson. In fact, the 3rd edition has been published after Davidson's death, and is edited by Tom Jaine. The pilaf entry is authored by food historian
Charles Perry, who has also made contributions to
Alan Davidson’s
Petits Propos Culinaires and to
The Oxford Companion to Food. The writes a food history column for the LA Times. The pilaf entry should be cited as:
Perry, Charles (2014), "Pilaf", in Jaine, Tom (editor) (ed.),
The Oxford Companion to Food by Alan Davidson, 3rd Edition, Oxford University Press, pp. 624–625,
ISBN
978-0-19-967733-7 {{
citation}}
: |editor=
has generic name (
help)
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
19:47, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Highpeaks35: It is best that you not dicker with words or nickel and dime lists in the lead. The lead has taken a long time to get right. You might be attempting to change things here and there in good faith, but your edits are not helpful. I request that you ask here rather than increasing the work of those who maintain the article. Best regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:25, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
The article includes this line: "employing some technique for achieving cooked grains that do not adhere"
I believe, based on the linked source/comment, that "adhere" is referring to keeping the rice from sticking together. But the word "adhere" is commonly used in other senses - such as, to adhere to a set of rules. I actually don't think the meaning of "adhere" in this sentence is totally obvious. As someone who is not a cooking or rice expert, at first I thought it was referring to some set of rules for what pilaf is/how it should be cooked, instead of about the physical sticking together of grains of rice.
Perhaps we could consider using a different word or way of phrasing this, if anyone has any ideas.
- KaJunl ( talk) 23:37, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
I just realized that IP editors, among which are notably @ 2A00:23C4:7889:4001:CD56:74B1:CCCE:62FF: have been removing sourced content and changing the preferred spelling (which is pilaf (the US spelling), followed by pilau (the UK and Commonwealth). The main caretaker of this page user:IamNotU has not been active since last October. But there are others: user:RegentsPark, user:Gotitbro, and user:Serols who are around. Please continue to keep an eye on the page. (We went through much heartache to get it right once.) Thanks. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 04:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
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This page has been recently edited by a disruptive editor, but I can not perform any revert on this page as all revisions of this page purportedly contain "a new external link to a site registered on Wikipedia's blacklist or Wikimedia's global blacklist." I am not trying to introduce any new external link, so I don't know what any of this is about. Uness232 ( talk) 12:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=note>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=note}}
template (see the
help page).