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Just a warning here there are accusations from BOTH sides that this page is not NPOV PLEASE dont just edit it randomly — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.79.169.226 ( talk) 12:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure of the appropriate place to jump into this debate, so please correct my wiki-etiquette. I'm a bit of a Phoenix Program scholar with a working paper the program. Source wise, I've found Moyar's account the most accurate. In contrast, most of the sources cited on this page right now are anecdotal, journalistic, or people making claims based on contemporary journalistic accounts. The recent rewrite of the page as "anti-Phoenix" is not only biased, it's factually wrong in lots of places. The most obvious and blatant place is the claim that "Few of the prisoners survived—most of them were tortured to death." The modal person was arrested and then released in a short amount of time either because of limited judicial resources, poor evidence against them, the family paid small bribe, or they were actually Viet Cong and the VC had sway in the area. It was such a problem that Phoenix was criticized at the time as just a revolving door. The less egregious misconceptions on this page just show unfamiliarity with the history of the program. Phoenix as a whole was a intelligence coordination program, it monitored and directed the efforts of existing police, miltiary, and paramilitary forces. PRUs were a novel addition, but they represented only a small share of total targeting. The RF/PFs did the majority of targeting. Of the "26,369 killed" only a fraction of those were actually killed by the program. An estimate of the real number is something I'm working on, but a lot of those claimed kills were people that were killed in ordinary operations and then either legitimately or illegitimately claimed as matching someone on the blacklist postmortem. In sum, this page has always had some problems but has apparently taken a real turn for the worse recently.
The Phoenix Program was notorious for abuses that went beyond stated aims and rules, and resulted in the abuse, torture and murder of thousands of Vietnamese by US military/intelligence personnel. This article now reads like a sanitized whitewash, or propaganda, that misleads students of history. It appears to have been edited over the past few years with a bias towards legitimizing and justifying the program, and downplaying the documented abuses. Look at the now-archived Talk pages for some relevant discussion, and some of the older versions. It appears that comments critical of the Phoenix Program, US policy or US military personnel have been removed, often with no discussion or comment. Sometimes the alleged grounds for deletion was inadequate references, but this seems to have been applied in a selective, biased fashion. Rather than correcting the reference, the sentence was deleted. US critics of the Program, and the war, have been downplayed. One editor appears to have been User:TDC, who was blocked from editing Wikipedia, and seemed to have a nationalist-US POV agenda; there may be others. Dehma1 ( talk) 00:30, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
20.000 + thousand civilians : medical doctors, nurses, teachers, professors, ordinary workers, managers, artists, students, many anonymous individuals without any social significance, etc. murdered in barbaric fashion, first tortured, often raped, and than butchered for sole purpose of TERRORIZING civil population. Every victim was tagged with one card - AS of spades.
CIA former employees, chiefs of stations, directors and deputy directors talk openly about "Operation Phoenix" (referring to Phoenix Program) in French documentary ARTE France 2003 "CIA: Secret Wars", using description and words mentioned above !
Besides, intro to this article constitute pure propaganda. -- Santasa99 ( talk) 14:08, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Anything particular? Saying the whole article is propaganda isnt going to help. You can always add to it yourself if you have good references. Dougy05050 ( talk) 07:53, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
The sources in this article are completely atrocious in light of the number of high quality sources available on this subject. Polemical sources should not be substituted for high quality academic works. I have tagged the article until these issues are addressed or I have time to address them. ZHurlihee ( talk) 17:01, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
Comment. Left and right-wing bias. In my opinion this is where the discussion turns from the above section started May 23, 2011 by ZHurlihee asserting "The article as it is currently written is a left wing screed." Here is the May 23 version of the article. ZHurlihee then did a lot of editing of the article, and on June 1 Dehma1 asserted below that "The article now reads like a right-wing screed." Here is the June 1 version of the article]. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 14:40, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
Douglas Valentine’s book (the source for the “eel rape” quote) was based, in large part off many fraudulent sources. Among these include Elton Manzione who Valentine claimed was a US Navy Seals. Needless to say (or I wouldn’t be posting this), he wasn’t and this, and many more, were all documented in a review on Valentine’s book by US Naval Commander Fred Brown in Foreign Intelligence Literary Scene shortly after the books release. I have a copy of the article, but I dont knwo how to make it available for use here. Use of Valentine and derived material is not acceptable. ZHurlihee ( talk) 21:50, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
(unindent). You did not address some of my points. See all my previous replies in this section. Your paranoia is showing. I added the left and right-wing sections simply to allow others to enter in the discussion more easily, and in the section that interests them. It is commonly done on talk pages. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 04:31, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
Comment. About this diff. I assume this is the Douglas Valentine info you are talking about. I did not add it myself, nor did I return it to the article when it was removed. It does not name the original source (as in who witnessed it). So I don't think it should be in the article. It is not about Valentine's claims in my opinion. It is about the original sources. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 01:02, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
I haven't studied the issue enough yet concerning his reliability as a source. But if his writings are to be used as a reference, then I suggest referencing them directly rather than second hand via other authors' interpretations. The full text of his main book on Phoenix is online here:
Do not use that as the reference though because I do not know if the website has permission to post the full text. Use something like this as a reference:
Also, why was this sourced info removed? Who are the original sources for the info provided by Moyar and Andrade ? -- Timeshifter ( talk) 01:02, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
As it stands now the background section reads has the following language:
Background
See also:
Viet Cong
The following background history section comes from Lieutenant Colonel Ken Tovo. Also, William Rosenau and Austin Long of the RAND Corporation. And finally, Dale Andrade, an historian at the U.S. Army Center of Military History. For alternative viewpoints see
Viet Cong.
Which is un-necessary. The "For alternative viewpoints see Viet Cong" is a replication of the "see Viet cong" link, (which should stay.) and the blurb abut the various authors qualifications is also un-necessary. One wouldn't put "the following background information comes from Noam Chomsky, an anarchist-socialist and critic of US foreign policy. For alternative viewpoints see whomever." It should be removed.
V7-sport (
talk)
03:58, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
It is possible that Jrtayloriv may have had the right idea. It may be better to delete the current background section since it does not meet WP:NPOV standards, and it may not be possible in the limited space available here. Instead we can link to Viet Cong for the background. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 06:01, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
I cant see any good justification to get rid of the background section. Many authors discussed this material In great detail when describing the rationale for Phoenix. ZHurlihee ( talk) 14:05, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
I removed Killcullen, because his view that Phoenix was primarily an aid and development program is both
fringe and absurd. All of our sources, including the U.S. military sources state unequivocally that it was primarily a counterinsurgency program. That said, I was incorrect that SWJ is not a reliable source in some cases. A look at their low-quality site, and the fact that they would publish something so inaccurate made me jump to an incorrect conclusion. Sorry about that. Anyhow, Killcullen's incorrect and fringe view does not warrant inclusion here. --
Jrtayloriv (
talk)
01:59, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I came to this Discussion page to engage in discussion. However, after having read the above and reviewed recent edits to this article, it seems that users V7-sport and ZHurlihee are engaged in wanton NPOV editing disguised as WP:CRUSH, WP:Edit waring, WP:Ownership (tag-team), and other WP policy violations. V7-sport did a blanket revert on my edits ( see comparison), which s/he merely labeled as "Restoring properly sourced info per BRD." (The comparison shows it is far more than this, and reveals a consistent NPOV with ZHurlihee, namely to minimize critisize of the Phoenix Program, to play up its benefits, and to selectively choose sources affiliated with the US military.) Reading the discussion and revision histories leads me to suggest that at least a temporary block be imposed on user V7-sport. Teeparty ( talk) 03:14, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Douglas Valentine's book The Phoenix Program is widely cited in reliable sources ( [20] [21] [22], etc. etc. etc.), and is published by a professional publishing outfit, William Morrow and Company. Some users have expressed concern over the credibility of Valentine's work, given his inclusion of interviews with Elton Manzione, who possibly lied about his service as a Navy Seal, and because of a U.S. military officer's criticism of Valentine's work. With attribution (i.e. "Douglas Valentine states X") is The Phoenix Program a WP:RS? Jrtayloriv ( talk) 04:08, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm just going to restate the rebuttals so far.The consensus on this forum has been No.
(unindent) Timeshifter can speak for him/herself, but V7-sport's characterization of Timeshifter's views and V7's assertion that there is a consensus is deeply misleading. For now, here are some of Timeshifter's comments about Valentine, from which I conclude Timeshifter's view is Yes, is RS with attribution:
I have yet to find anything seriously fraudulent about Douglas Valentine. Mistakes, yes, fraudulent, no. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:31, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Also, where are the links? Finally, even if true, it sounds like a mistake, not fraud. Please don't try a Swiftboating campaign on Wikipedia against Douglas Valentine. Stick to the facts. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:06, 17 June 2011 (UTC) Valentine quoted the whole sentence in his book. See here. In the book he says that the US Phoenix program was mimicking the insurgency. So maybe Valentine conflated the two sentences in his mind? --Timeshifter (talk) 15:14, 16 June 2011 (UTC) Valentine did not "rely" on one bad source. He had many sources. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:40, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
But if his writings are to be used as a reference, then I suggest referencing them directly... --Timeshifter (talk) 13:31, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Teeparty ( talk) 07:10, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
In short, it clearly meets the WP criteria for RS. Teeparty ( talk) 07:10, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
NO, calling someone a seal when they werent in the seals is a serious screw up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.117.122.8 ( talk) 01:46, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Maybe rename this page so we can have a disambiguation page referring to other Phoenix programs, eg DARPA Phoenix Program ? - Rod57 ( talk) 10:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Just one question about including a statement from Chomsky's book in this article: What makes Chomsky a reputable source of information on when Phoenix was terminated? He has absolutely no credentials whatever in this respect. He does, however, have radical points of view and is a well-known political activist. Are these his credentials as a source on Phoenix? Is this good enough at Wikipedia? FoundersFan ( talk) 19:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
The decapitation photograph needs to be properly sourced. I remember seeing this photo run in our local underground newspaper, and wondering where it came from. In the present instance, there's no indication that any of the soldiers in the photograph have anything to do with the Phoenix program, and indeed, since the point of Phoenix was infiltration, it's unlikely uniformed soldiers had much to do with it. What the photo really shows is an atrocity, and that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the Phoenix program. It should be either properly sourced, or it should be deleted. Theonemacduff ( talk) 19:58, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
"We don't need to cite any sources for the incredibly biased claims in the lede; read the rest of the article for justification."
Here's what it says:
That doesn't justify the claim that civilians were the sole, deliberate targets of the operation. Far from it. If you want to make those claims in the lede, you can't say that no sources are needed because it is the lede.
You can't understand why anyone would think this article is biased? It just doesn't make any sense? WP:RS says that no editorials are reliable for statements of fact. I was told on the Cold War talk page that Noam Chomsky is a WP:FRINGE source, never to be used in articles unrelated to him. Counterpunch is a neo-Nazi blog. Polemical sources like John Pilger should never be used in articles like this. Why are there a mountain of links to radical left-wing sites in external links? Could it be that this page was edited mostly by radical leftists who weren't alive at the time? Could it be that they are biased? Could their bias possibly show? Why does the article use mocking quotation marks around the word communist (as in "communist" plans repeatedly emphasized attacking the government’s pacification program and specifically targeted Phoenix officials)? Were the North Vietnamese communist? Is that right-wing propaganda? Evidence is needed to assert that the targets of the program were the "civilian infrastructure" of the Viet Cong. It's absurd to cite polemical pseudo-scholars. Any expert on the subject could tell you this entire article is a ludicrous joke. I need to talk and explain why sources are needed and polemics aren't allowed? You can't just use random pictures, either; is that a picture of the phoenix progam? Do you know? Do you care? TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 18:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Obviously this is a fairly new term,probably arrived since the Iraq war in conventional use.To be insurgents you need to be fighting against the recognised government of a country. South Vietnam was not recognised by the UN at all. Vietnam was divided in the 1954 Geneva accords on a temp basis until 1956 when elections should have been held. The Americans and Diem did not want elections held as Ho Chi Minh would have won them so they set up the South Vietnam state. The people fighting against that were Vietnamese so they were not insurgents against any recognised government,it was a civil war that had been going on since the end of WW2.Please provide you thoughts or evidence that states otherwise Zrdragon12 ( talk) 19:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
The Geneva Agreements, which were issued on July 21, 1954,[11] carefully worded the division of northern and southern Vietnam as a "provisional military demarcation line",[12] "on either side of which the forces of the two parties shall be regrouped after their withdrawal".[12] To specifically put aside any notion that it was a partition, they further stated, in the Final Declaration, Article 6: "The Conference recognizes that the essential purpose of the agreement relating to Vietnam is to settle military questions with a view to ending hostilities and that the military demarcation line is provisional and should not in any way be interpreted as constituting a political or territorial boundary".. Zrdragon12 ( talk) 19:41, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
I've reverted a number of recent edits. Some of the edits I reverted were made with the following justifications:
Actually, I do -- in some cases, so that is half-right. I try not to repeat cited material in external links. However, per WP:FURTHER, I will present relevant sources under the Further Reading section, if the Reference section has grown too large to serve as a general reading list.
Links may come and go, but information doesn't; one just needs to put in a little extra effort to find a suitable replacement link in most cases.
While it may not be related to the "Phoneix Program", it is largely related to the "Phoenix Program", with 30 references to it, a section devoted to it, as well as coverage of directly related programs. As for the "copyright violation" charge, the site had full rights to make the work available, but just so we don't have to argue about it, I've replaced the link with one directly to the author's site.
If you feel a cited source is "clearly wrong", you should raise your concern at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. I've rechecked that source, and the present article wording accurately conveys that information. You appear to be confusing the number of civilians killed by the Phoenix Program (which equates to about a third of the total "neutralized") with the number of civilians captured through the Phoenix Program who were killed. Hopefully that helps. Xenophrenic ( talk) 02:59, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
The opening para says that "Few of the prisoners survived—most of them were tortured to death, and those that survived the torture sessions were generally killed afterwards" but then says later "By 1972, Phoenix operatives had "neutralized" 81,740 suspected NLF operatives, informants and supporters, of whom 26,369 were killed." 26,369/81,740 is 32% killed, so the earlier quote seems to be a gross exaggeration. Mztourist ( talk) 15:09, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 12:26, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
This user has been removing this information cited in Vietnam and America: A Documented History:
"Intelligence gathered during interrogation was often used to direct "search and destroy " missions aimed at wiping out whole villages or groups of villages. In some areas where the population was believed to support the NLF strongly, entire provinces were subjected to campaigns of destruction and mass killing."
and changing it to this:
"Intelligence derived from PIC interrogations was often used to carry out " search and destroy" missions aimed at finding the enemy and destroying them."
My version is the following:
"Intelligence derived from PIC interrogations was often used to carry out "search and destroy" missions aimed at wiping out whole villages or groups of villages. In some areas where the population was suspected of having strong VC sympathies, entire provinces were subjected to indiscriminate bombing raids and mass killing."
So I'm just requesting for other users to vote on which version is more in line with the source. Thanks.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 19:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
IP 88.104.212.150 also seems to believe that he is the decider of what is "dubious" or "controversial". He doesn't like what it says, so therefore, it is "dubious".-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 21:38, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
IP 88.104.212.150's reason for the deletion is the following:
"It is unacceptable to claim as fact that US tactics were "mass killing"
It is not his place to decide what is or isn't acceptable.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 23:46, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Hersh isn't the only one reporting this though. Vietnam War reporter Jonathon Schell reported it also:
"In The Military Half, legendary Vietnam War reporter for The New Yorker Jonathan Schell details the devastating effects of American bombings and ground operations on the provinces of Quang Ngai and Quang Tin in South Vietnam. Schell provides first-hand accounts of the bombing runs and how they contributed to the destruction of the two provinces, giving a new generation of Americans an inside look at why the Vietnam War, years after its conclusion, is still a hot topic of debate in our country."
-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 04:51, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
As for the "mass killing" thing, I might be able to find an estimated number of people killed. Although, I would think that wiping out whole villages and entire provinces would qualify as mass killing. -- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 05:08, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Mass killing usually refers to mass deliberate killing of civilians so estimated number people of killed(combatant and civilian) is not going back up your claim. Schell's claim also doesn't imply or back up that the deliberate aim of search and destroy was "mass killing" and to subject entire provinces to indiscriminate bombing. Regardless my definition was well sourced so how do you justify removing it? 88.104.212.150 ( talk) 13:40, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
You are setting an arbitrary bar impossibly high. When you bomb a village, the intent could not be any clearer, especially when then the reason for the bombing has been established, which was villagers suspected sympathies for the VC. If we were talking about an "official enemy" this wouldn't be complicated for anybody.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 18:03, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
I really don't think its that high a bar and what would be defined as a mass killing should be pretty clear(ie deliberate targeting of lots of civilians). Not heavy collateral or even "indiscriminate bombing". I personally don't think most of this "search and destroy" stuff should be here especially in the manner you have written. A mention that Phoenix intel was used to carry out "Search and Destroy" missions is definitely enough. The quotes below the paragraph are certainly out of scope and not needed. Regardless since this is a controversial debated topic I think attribution would be needed for the claims if they are kept. Ie for Hersh's claim about "mass killings", "wiping out villages" and "indiscriminate bombing" and Schell's claim about "70% of buildings". I be would OK with a version with attribution. It does however still seem dishonest to not talk about what they are targeting in search and destroy mission ie the Viet Cong which my sources and plenty of others do mention. I don't see why you have a problem with mentioning that "search and destroy" mission were aimed at destroying the Viet Cong by killing them. What is wrong with that? 88.104.213.240 ( talk) 18:24, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough. I'll say, "according to reports by so and so". And the sources referring to Phoenix doesn't say it was "aimed at wiping out Viet Cong" though. It says "whole villages" and "entire provinces" where the population was believed to support the VC strongly.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 18:32, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Thats good enough for me. I still disagree with most the line but a compromise will do. And regarding "Search and Destroy" I think its fairly clear that they were used to kill Viet Cong even if your sources describe it differently. I read the relevent sections in Schell's book and it is pretty clear that they are trying to kill Viet cong even it they destroy an entire village because VC fire from it which pretty much the "indiscriminate bombing", "whole villages", "entire provinces", "villagers suspected sympathies for the VC" etc you are referring to. Regardless attribution will do. 88.104.213.240 ( talk) 18:48, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
The wording still does not fit to how Schell describes the mission in his book. The 2nd line also needs to attributed. 88.104.213.240 ( talk) 18:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Out of interest who claims the operation resulted in mass killings and what does he specifically mean? 88.104.213.240 ( talk) 19:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
This is not complicated. When you wipe out a village suspected of "communist sympathies", the occupants are not collateral damage. By the standard you are advocating, the Hitler page would have to be cleansed as well.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 19:41, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Well we still disagree but who exactly said "mass killing"? Was it Seymour Hersh? 88.104.213.240 ( talk) 19:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
You just engaged in a revert war and still did not provide a source to support your claim. You also violated our agreement here on the talk page by continuing to misrepresent the provided source with "commentary" and POV.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 20:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Well I completely disagree that I misrepresented anything with "commentary and POV". The agreement was too have attribution with regards to the claims of "mass killing" etc. I did not remove any of that. I could provide page number but is is fairly obvious that when Schell talks about Search and Destroy that US soldiers are trying to eradicate the VC. How is this not clear? Do you not know where I am coming from? Regardless I have changed more in line with your view. Is this fine? And also no need for the slanderous reference to Hitler. Regards. 88.104.213.240 ( talk) 20:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Your commentary does not reflect what the source says. We need intervention on this.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 20:54, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
You also removed this entire part:
"In some areas where the population was suspected of strong VC sympathies, entire provinces were subjected to indiscriminate bombing raids and mass killing."-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 21:06, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Current revision is fine. 88.104.209.126 ( talk) 12:59, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
In different places of this article, the name of a witness is reported both as "K. Milton Osborne" and "K. Milton Osborn".
What's the right spelling?
-- Filippof ( talk) 15:04, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
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Senor Freebie you must follow WP:BRD rather than edit warring with me as you have done here: [31] and here: [32]. As I said here: [33] you don't put refs in the lede. You don't get to decide that there were US war crimes, you need to present the relevant information from your refs in the appropriate section, if multiple WP:RS shows that war crimes occurred, then your statement can go in the lede. In relation to my deletion here: [34] which you also reverted here: [35], I deleted this because I didn't regard it as being from an RS, in addition it repeated an account already contained under the Torture section. Mztourist ( talk) 10:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Mztourist stated that they had a problem with my edit stating that widespread war crimes occurred as a part of the Phoenix Program, and I corrected that problem that they complained about. Then they deleted the subsequent edit, implying that any further reverting of that would be edit warring. Which is a false claim. If they have a problem with the sources that I provided, after they asked for them they need to make their case here. In detail.-- Senor Freebie ( talk) 10:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Gary Solis, a war-crimes expert at the United States Military Academy at West Point who wrote a book on Son Thang, says that atrocities were more common in Vietnam than we knew. While there were 122 convictions for war crimes in Vietnam, he says, "In my opinion, war crimes occurred that were never reported."
Did Kerrey and his men commit crimes of war, or were they just applying the basic rules of a dirty war as best they understood them? "Let the other people judge whether or not what I did was militarily allowable or morally ethical or inside the rules of war," Kerrey says. "Let them figure that out. I mean, I can make a case that it was."
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1037#User:Senor_Freebie_won't_follow_WP:BRD_and_consensus_and_is_making_false_accusations Mztourist ( talk) 06:28, 17 May 2020 (UTC) Senor Freebie was indefinitely blocked on 27 May 2020. Mztourist ( talk) 06:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
By this diff: [37] I reverted various changes to the page which ComicsAreJustAllRight made with the comment "rvt to last good version. Please don't engage in political debate on this page". Firstly proper citing of a webpage is unarguable. Gary Kulik in his book War Stories calls into question the claims regarding war crimes during the Phoenix Program, particularly those made by K. Barton Osborne (who is later incorrectly referred to as K. Milton Osborn). In accordance with WP:WEIGHT if Osborne's claims are presented then contradictory RS information such as that of Kulik should also be presented. We don't need to repeat Osborne's story about a dowel being inserted in a detainee's ear. Nick Turse is the source claiming that war crimes were common and so it is correct to make this clear. We don't list in the See Also section links that are already contained in the body of the page. Mztourist ( talk) 03:55, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
By this diff: [38] I have reverted the 3 July edits by IP 98.28.42.70 who stated "removed outlier opinion unsupported by any other sources" and "removed unsubstantiated claims unsupported by bulk of literature". Gary Kulik is a WP:RS, if you have a problem with the source take it to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard for a review. In relation to the comments that Kulik's claims are "unsupported by bulk of literature" no justification is given for this assertion. In fact the existing sources on the page are all rather biased to one viewpoint and adding Kulik gives WP:WEIGHT to the page and so must be retained, even if some authors like the anonymous IP don't like what he says. Mztourist ( talk) 15:00, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that the first lines be reworked slightly, but I am unwilling to touch the lede of a well-maintained article without consensus. Wikipedia's page preview captures the first part of the lede. This should give people enough info to know whether they want to read the article. Right now, all that shows is the portion up to In 1970, CIA responsibility was phased out, and the program was put und...
A reader (me, for instance) now only knows that it was a CIA program in the Vietnam War which is not very illuminating.
I suggest the first lines be changed to something like, "The Phoenix Program (...) was designed to attack and destroy the political infrastructure of the Viet Cong during the Vietnam War. It was initially coordinated by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) during the Vietnam War, involving..." (links omitted). I am not partial to that particular wording, but hope that we can educate readers better with a little more description at the top. Cheers,
Last1in (
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18:55, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
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Just a warning here there are accusations from BOTH sides that this page is not NPOV PLEASE dont just edit it randomly — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.79.169.226 ( talk) 12:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure of the appropriate place to jump into this debate, so please correct my wiki-etiquette. I'm a bit of a Phoenix Program scholar with a working paper the program. Source wise, I've found Moyar's account the most accurate. In contrast, most of the sources cited on this page right now are anecdotal, journalistic, or people making claims based on contemporary journalistic accounts. The recent rewrite of the page as "anti-Phoenix" is not only biased, it's factually wrong in lots of places. The most obvious and blatant place is the claim that "Few of the prisoners survived—most of them were tortured to death." The modal person was arrested and then released in a short amount of time either because of limited judicial resources, poor evidence against them, the family paid small bribe, or they were actually Viet Cong and the VC had sway in the area. It was such a problem that Phoenix was criticized at the time as just a revolving door. The less egregious misconceptions on this page just show unfamiliarity with the history of the program. Phoenix as a whole was a intelligence coordination program, it monitored and directed the efforts of existing police, miltiary, and paramilitary forces. PRUs were a novel addition, but they represented only a small share of total targeting. The RF/PFs did the majority of targeting. Of the "26,369 killed" only a fraction of those were actually killed by the program. An estimate of the real number is something I'm working on, but a lot of those claimed kills were people that were killed in ordinary operations and then either legitimately or illegitimately claimed as matching someone on the blacklist postmortem. In sum, this page has always had some problems but has apparently taken a real turn for the worse recently.
The Phoenix Program was notorious for abuses that went beyond stated aims and rules, and resulted in the abuse, torture and murder of thousands of Vietnamese by US military/intelligence personnel. This article now reads like a sanitized whitewash, or propaganda, that misleads students of history. It appears to have been edited over the past few years with a bias towards legitimizing and justifying the program, and downplaying the documented abuses. Look at the now-archived Talk pages for some relevant discussion, and some of the older versions. It appears that comments critical of the Phoenix Program, US policy or US military personnel have been removed, often with no discussion or comment. Sometimes the alleged grounds for deletion was inadequate references, but this seems to have been applied in a selective, biased fashion. Rather than correcting the reference, the sentence was deleted. US critics of the Program, and the war, have been downplayed. One editor appears to have been User:TDC, who was blocked from editing Wikipedia, and seemed to have a nationalist-US POV agenda; there may be others. Dehma1 ( talk) 00:30, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
20.000 + thousand civilians : medical doctors, nurses, teachers, professors, ordinary workers, managers, artists, students, many anonymous individuals without any social significance, etc. murdered in barbaric fashion, first tortured, often raped, and than butchered for sole purpose of TERRORIZING civil population. Every victim was tagged with one card - AS of spades.
CIA former employees, chiefs of stations, directors and deputy directors talk openly about "Operation Phoenix" (referring to Phoenix Program) in French documentary ARTE France 2003 "CIA: Secret Wars", using description and words mentioned above !
Besides, intro to this article constitute pure propaganda. -- Santasa99 ( talk) 14:08, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Anything particular? Saying the whole article is propaganda isnt going to help. You can always add to it yourself if you have good references. Dougy05050 ( talk) 07:53, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
The sources in this article are completely atrocious in light of the number of high quality sources available on this subject. Polemical sources should not be substituted for high quality academic works. I have tagged the article until these issues are addressed or I have time to address them. ZHurlihee ( talk) 17:01, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
Comment. Left and right-wing bias. In my opinion this is where the discussion turns from the above section started May 23, 2011 by ZHurlihee asserting "The article as it is currently written is a left wing screed." Here is the May 23 version of the article. ZHurlihee then did a lot of editing of the article, and on June 1 Dehma1 asserted below that "The article now reads like a right-wing screed." Here is the June 1 version of the article]. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 14:40, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
Douglas Valentine’s book (the source for the “eel rape” quote) was based, in large part off many fraudulent sources. Among these include Elton Manzione who Valentine claimed was a US Navy Seals. Needless to say (or I wouldn’t be posting this), he wasn’t and this, and many more, were all documented in a review on Valentine’s book by US Naval Commander Fred Brown in Foreign Intelligence Literary Scene shortly after the books release. I have a copy of the article, but I dont knwo how to make it available for use here. Use of Valentine and derived material is not acceptable. ZHurlihee ( talk) 21:50, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
(unindent). You did not address some of my points. See all my previous replies in this section. Your paranoia is showing. I added the left and right-wing sections simply to allow others to enter in the discussion more easily, and in the section that interests them. It is commonly done on talk pages. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 04:31, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
Comment. About this diff. I assume this is the Douglas Valentine info you are talking about. I did not add it myself, nor did I return it to the article when it was removed. It does not name the original source (as in who witnessed it). So I don't think it should be in the article. It is not about Valentine's claims in my opinion. It is about the original sources. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 01:02, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
I haven't studied the issue enough yet concerning his reliability as a source. But if his writings are to be used as a reference, then I suggest referencing them directly rather than second hand via other authors' interpretations. The full text of his main book on Phoenix is online here:
Do not use that as the reference though because I do not know if the website has permission to post the full text. Use something like this as a reference:
Also, why was this sourced info removed? Who are the original sources for the info provided by Moyar and Andrade ? -- Timeshifter ( talk) 01:02, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
As it stands now the background section reads has the following language:
Background
See also:
Viet Cong
The following background history section comes from Lieutenant Colonel Ken Tovo. Also, William Rosenau and Austin Long of the RAND Corporation. And finally, Dale Andrade, an historian at the U.S. Army Center of Military History. For alternative viewpoints see
Viet Cong.
Which is un-necessary. The "For alternative viewpoints see Viet Cong" is a replication of the "see Viet cong" link, (which should stay.) and the blurb abut the various authors qualifications is also un-necessary. One wouldn't put "the following background information comes from Noam Chomsky, an anarchist-socialist and critic of US foreign policy. For alternative viewpoints see whomever." It should be removed.
V7-sport (
talk)
03:58, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
It is possible that Jrtayloriv may have had the right idea. It may be better to delete the current background section since it does not meet WP:NPOV standards, and it may not be possible in the limited space available here. Instead we can link to Viet Cong for the background. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 06:01, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
I cant see any good justification to get rid of the background section. Many authors discussed this material In great detail when describing the rationale for Phoenix. ZHurlihee ( talk) 14:05, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
I removed Killcullen, because his view that Phoenix was primarily an aid and development program is both
fringe and absurd. All of our sources, including the U.S. military sources state unequivocally that it was primarily a counterinsurgency program. That said, I was incorrect that SWJ is not a reliable source in some cases. A look at their low-quality site, and the fact that they would publish something so inaccurate made me jump to an incorrect conclusion. Sorry about that. Anyhow, Killcullen's incorrect and fringe view does not warrant inclusion here. --
Jrtayloriv (
talk)
01:59, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I came to this Discussion page to engage in discussion. However, after having read the above and reviewed recent edits to this article, it seems that users V7-sport and ZHurlihee are engaged in wanton NPOV editing disguised as WP:CRUSH, WP:Edit waring, WP:Ownership (tag-team), and other WP policy violations. V7-sport did a blanket revert on my edits ( see comparison), which s/he merely labeled as "Restoring properly sourced info per BRD." (The comparison shows it is far more than this, and reveals a consistent NPOV with ZHurlihee, namely to minimize critisize of the Phoenix Program, to play up its benefits, and to selectively choose sources affiliated with the US military.) Reading the discussion and revision histories leads me to suggest that at least a temporary block be imposed on user V7-sport. Teeparty ( talk) 03:14, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Douglas Valentine's book The Phoenix Program is widely cited in reliable sources ( [20] [21] [22], etc. etc. etc.), and is published by a professional publishing outfit, William Morrow and Company. Some users have expressed concern over the credibility of Valentine's work, given his inclusion of interviews with Elton Manzione, who possibly lied about his service as a Navy Seal, and because of a U.S. military officer's criticism of Valentine's work. With attribution (i.e. "Douglas Valentine states X") is The Phoenix Program a WP:RS? Jrtayloriv ( talk) 04:08, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm just going to restate the rebuttals so far.The consensus on this forum has been No.
(unindent) Timeshifter can speak for him/herself, but V7-sport's characterization of Timeshifter's views and V7's assertion that there is a consensus is deeply misleading. For now, here are some of Timeshifter's comments about Valentine, from which I conclude Timeshifter's view is Yes, is RS with attribution:
I have yet to find anything seriously fraudulent about Douglas Valentine. Mistakes, yes, fraudulent, no. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:31, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Also, where are the links? Finally, even if true, it sounds like a mistake, not fraud. Please don't try a Swiftboating campaign on Wikipedia against Douglas Valentine. Stick to the facts. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:06, 17 June 2011 (UTC) Valentine quoted the whole sentence in his book. See here. In the book he says that the US Phoenix program was mimicking the insurgency. So maybe Valentine conflated the two sentences in his mind? --Timeshifter (talk) 15:14, 16 June 2011 (UTC) Valentine did not "rely" on one bad source. He had many sources. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:40, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
But if his writings are to be used as a reference, then I suggest referencing them directly... --Timeshifter (talk) 13:31, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Teeparty ( talk) 07:10, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
In short, it clearly meets the WP criteria for RS. Teeparty ( talk) 07:10, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
NO, calling someone a seal when they werent in the seals is a serious screw up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.117.122.8 ( talk) 01:46, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Maybe rename this page so we can have a disambiguation page referring to other Phoenix programs, eg DARPA Phoenix Program ? - Rod57 ( talk) 10:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Just one question about including a statement from Chomsky's book in this article: What makes Chomsky a reputable source of information on when Phoenix was terminated? He has absolutely no credentials whatever in this respect. He does, however, have radical points of view and is a well-known political activist. Are these his credentials as a source on Phoenix? Is this good enough at Wikipedia? FoundersFan ( talk) 19:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
The decapitation photograph needs to be properly sourced. I remember seeing this photo run in our local underground newspaper, and wondering where it came from. In the present instance, there's no indication that any of the soldiers in the photograph have anything to do with the Phoenix program, and indeed, since the point of Phoenix was infiltration, it's unlikely uniformed soldiers had much to do with it. What the photo really shows is an atrocity, and that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the Phoenix program. It should be either properly sourced, or it should be deleted. Theonemacduff ( talk) 19:58, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
"We don't need to cite any sources for the incredibly biased claims in the lede; read the rest of the article for justification."
Here's what it says:
That doesn't justify the claim that civilians were the sole, deliberate targets of the operation. Far from it. If you want to make those claims in the lede, you can't say that no sources are needed because it is the lede.
You can't understand why anyone would think this article is biased? It just doesn't make any sense? WP:RS says that no editorials are reliable for statements of fact. I was told on the Cold War talk page that Noam Chomsky is a WP:FRINGE source, never to be used in articles unrelated to him. Counterpunch is a neo-Nazi blog. Polemical sources like John Pilger should never be used in articles like this. Why are there a mountain of links to radical left-wing sites in external links? Could it be that this page was edited mostly by radical leftists who weren't alive at the time? Could it be that they are biased? Could their bias possibly show? Why does the article use mocking quotation marks around the word communist (as in "communist" plans repeatedly emphasized attacking the government’s pacification program and specifically targeted Phoenix officials)? Were the North Vietnamese communist? Is that right-wing propaganda? Evidence is needed to assert that the targets of the program were the "civilian infrastructure" of the Viet Cong. It's absurd to cite polemical pseudo-scholars. Any expert on the subject could tell you this entire article is a ludicrous joke. I need to talk and explain why sources are needed and polemics aren't allowed? You can't just use random pictures, either; is that a picture of the phoenix progam? Do you know? Do you care? TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 18:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Obviously this is a fairly new term,probably arrived since the Iraq war in conventional use.To be insurgents you need to be fighting against the recognised government of a country. South Vietnam was not recognised by the UN at all. Vietnam was divided in the 1954 Geneva accords on a temp basis until 1956 when elections should have been held. The Americans and Diem did not want elections held as Ho Chi Minh would have won them so they set up the South Vietnam state. The people fighting against that were Vietnamese so they were not insurgents against any recognised government,it was a civil war that had been going on since the end of WW2.Please provide you thoughts or evidence that states otherwise Zrdragon12 ( talk) 19:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
The Geneva Agreements, which were issued on July 21, 1954,[11] carefully worded the division of northern and southern Vietnam as a "provisional military demarcation line",[12] "on either side of which the forces of the two parties shall be regrouped after their withdrawal".[12] To specifically put aside any notion that it was a partition, they further stated, in the Final Declaration, Article 6: "The Conference recognizes that the essential purpose of the agreement relating to Vietnam is to settle military questions with a view to ending hostilities and that the military demarcation line is provisional and should not in any way be interpreted as constituting a political or territorial boundary".. Zrdragon12 ( talk) 19:41, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
I've reverted a number of recent edits. Some of the edits I reverted were made with the following justifications:
Actually, I do -- in some cases, so that is half-right. I try not to repeat cited material in external links. However, per WP:FURTHER, I will present relevant sources under the Further Reading section, if the Reference section has grown too large to serve as a general reading list.
Links may come and go, but information doesn't; one just needs to put in a little extra effort to find a suitable replacement link in most cases.
While it may not be related to the "Phoneix Program", it is largely related to the "Phoenix Program", with 30 references to it, a section devoted to it, as well as coverage of directly related programs. As for the "copyright violation" charge, the site had full rights to make the work available, but just so we don't have to argue about it, I've replaced the link with one directly to the author's site.
If you feel a cited source is "clearly wrong", you should raise your concern at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. I've rechecked that source, and the present article wording accurately conveys that information. You appear to be confusing the number of civilians killed by the Phoenix Program (which equates to about a third of the total "neutralized") with the number of civilians captured through the Phoenix Program who were killed. Hopefully that helps. Xenophrenic ( talk) 02:59, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
The opening para says that "Few of the prisoners survived—most of them were tortured to death, and those that survived the torture sessions were generally killed afterwards" but then says later "By 1972, Phoenix operatives had "neutralized" 81,740 suspected NLF operatives, informants and supporters, of whom 26,369 were killed." 26,369/81,740 is 32% killed, so the earlier quote seems to be a gross exaggeration. Mztourist ( talk) 15:09, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 12:26, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
This user has been removing this information cited in Vietnam and America: A Documented History:
"Intelligence gathered during interrogation was often used to direct "search and destroy " missions aimed at wiping out whole villages or groups of villages. In some areas where the population was believed to support the NLF strongly, entire provinces were subjected to campaigns of destruction and mass killing."
and changing it to this:
"Intelligence derived from PIC interrogations was often used to carry out " search and destroy" missions aimed at finding the enemy and destroying them."
My version is the following:
"Intelligence derived from PIC interrogations was often used to carry out "search and destroy" missions aimed at wiping out whole villages or groups of villages. In some areas where the population was suspected of having strong VC sympathies, entire provinces were subjected to indiscriminate bombing raids and mass killing."
So I'm just requesting for other users to vote on which version is more in line with the source. Thanks.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 19:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
IP 88.104.212.150 also seems to believe that he is the decider of what is "dubious" or "controversial". He doesn't like what it says, so therefore, it is "dubious".-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 21:38, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
IP 88.104.212.150's reason for the deletion is the following:
"It is unacceptable to claim as fact that US tactics were "mass killing"
It is not his place to decide what is or isn't acceptable.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 23:46, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Hersh isn't the only one reporting this though. Vietnam War reporter Jonathon Schell reported it also:
"In The Military Half, legendary Vietnam War reporter for The New Yorker Jonathan Schell details the devastating effects of American bombings and ground operations on the provinces of Quang Ngai and Quang Tin in South Vietnam. Schell provides first-hand accounts of the bombing runs and how they contributed to the destruction of the two provinces, giving a new generation of Americans an inside look at why the Vietnam War, years after its conclusion, is still a hot topic of debate in our country."
-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 04:51, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
As for the "mass killing" thing, I might be able to find an estimated number of people killed. Although, I would think that wiping out whole villages and entire provinces would qualify as mass killing. -- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 05:08, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Mass killing usually refers to mass deliberate killing of civilians so estimated number people of killed(combatant and civilian) is not going back up your claim. Schell's claim also doesn't imply or back up that the deliberate aim of search and destroy was "mass killing" and to subject entire provinces to indiscriminate bombing. Regardless my definition was well sourced so how do you justify removing it? 88.104.212.150 ( talk) 13:40, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
You are setting an arbitrary bar impossibly high. When you bomb a village, the intent could not be any clearer, especially when then the reason for the bombing has been established, which was villagers suspected sympathies for the VC. If we were talking about an "official enemy" this wouldn't be complicated for anybody.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 18:03, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
I really don't think its that high a bar and what would be defined as a mass killing should be pretty clear(ie deliberate targeting of lots of civilians). Not heavy collateral or even "indiscriminate bombing". I personally don't think most of this "search and destroy" stuff should be here especially in the manner you have written. A mention that Phoenix intel was used to carry out "Search and Destroy" missions is definitely enough. The quotes below the paragraph are certainly out of scope and not needed. Regardless since this is a controversial debated topic I think attribution would be needed for the claims if they are kept. Ie for Hersh's claim about "mass killings", "wiping out villages" and "indiscriminate bombing" and Schell's claim about "70% of buildings". I be would OK with a version with attribution. It does however still seem dishonest to not talk about what they are targeting in search and destroy mission ie the Viet Cong which my sources and plenty of others do mention. I don't see why you have a problem with mentioning that "search and destroy" mission were aimed at destroying the Viet Cong by killing them. What is wrong with that? 88.104.213.240 ( talk) 18:24, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough. I'll say, "according to reports by so and so". And the sources referring to Phoenix doesn't say it was "aimed at wiping out Viet Cong" though. It says "whole villages" and "entire provinces" where the population was believed to support the VC strongly.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 18:32, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Thats good enough for me. I still disagree with most the line but a compromise will do. And regarding "Search and Destroy" I think its fairly clear that they were used to kill Viet Cong even if your sources describe it differently. I read the relevent sections in Schell's book and it is pretty clear that they are trying to kill Viet cong even it they destroy an entire village because VC fire from it which pretty much the "indiscriminate bombing", "whole villages", "entire provinces", "villagers suspected sympathies for the VC" etc you are referring to. Regardless attribution will do. 88.104.213.240 ( talk) 18:48, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
The wording still does not fit to how Schell describes the mission in his book. The 2nd line also needs to attributed. 88.104.213.240 ( talk) 18:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Out of interest who claims the operation resulted in mass killings and what does he specifically mean? 88.104.213.240 ( talk) 19:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
This is not complicated. When you wipe out a village suspected of "communist sympathies", the occupants are not collateral damage. By the standard you are advocating, the Hitler page would have to be cleansed as well.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 19:41, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Well we still disagree but who exactly said "mass killing"? Was it Seymour Hersh? 88.104.213.240 ( talk) 19:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
You just engaged in a revert war and still did not provide a source to support your claim. You also violated our agreement here on the talk page by continuing to misrepresent the provided source with "commentary" and POV.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 20:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Well I completely disagree that I misrepresented anything with "commentary and POV". The agreement was too have attribution with regards to the claims of "mass killing" etc. I did not remove any of that. I could provide page number but is is fairly obvious that when Schell talks about Search and Destroy that US soldiers are trying to eradicate the VC. How is this not clear? Do you not know where I am coming from? Regardless I have changed more in line with your view. Is this fine? And also no need for the slanderous reference to Hitler. Regards. 88.104.213.240 ( talk) 20:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Your commentary does not reflect what the source says. We need intervention on this.-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 20:54, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
You also removed this entire part:
"In some areas where the population was suspected of strong VC sympathies, entire provinces were subjected to indiscriminate bombing raids and mass killing."-- Boba Fett TBH ( talk) 21:06, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Current revision is fine. 88.104.209.126 ( talk) 12:59, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
In different places of this article, the name of a witness is reported both as "K. Milton Osborne" and "K. Milton Osborn".
What's the right spelling?
-- Filippof ( talk) 15:04, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
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Senor Freebie you must follow WP:BRD rather than edit warring with me as you have done here: [31] and here: [32]. As I said here: [33] you don't put refs in the lede. You don't get to decide that there were US war crimes, you need to present the relevant information from your refs in the appropriate section, if multiple WP:RS shows that war crimes occurred, then your statement can go in the lede. In relation to my deletion here: [34] which you also reverted here: [35], I deleted this because I didn't regard it as being from an RS, in addition it repeated an account already contained under the Torture section. Mztourist ( talk) 10:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Mztourist stated that they had a problem with my edit stating that widespread war crimes occurred as a part of the Phoenix Program, and I corrected that problem that they complained about. Then they deleted the subsequent edit, implying that any further reverting of that would be edit warring. Which is a false claim. If they have a problem with the sources that I provided, after they asked for them they need to make their case here. In detail.-- Senor Freebie ( talk) 10:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Gary Solis, a war-crimes expert at the United States Military Academy at West Point who wrote a book on Son Thang, says that atrocities were more common in Vietnam than we knew. While there were 122 convictions for war crimes in Vietnam, he says, "In my opinion, war crimes occurred that were never reported."
Did Kerrey and his men commit crimes of war, or were they just applying the basic rules of a dirty war as best they understood them? "Let the other people judge whether or not what I did was militarily allowable or morally ethical or inside the rules of war," Kerrey says. "Let them figure that out. I mean, I can make a case that it was."
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1037#User:Senor_Freebie_won't_follow_WP:BRD_and_consensus_and_is_making_false_accusations Mztourist ( talk) 06:28, 17 May 2020 (UTC) Senor Freebie was indefinitely blocked on 27 May 2020. Mztourist ( talk) 06:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
By this diff: [37] I reverted various changes to the page which ComicsAreJustAllRight made with the comment "rvt to last good version. Please don't engage in political debate on this page". Firstly proper citing of a webpage is unarguable. Gary Kulik in his book War Stories calls into question the claims regarding war crimes during the Phoenix Program, particularly those made by K. Barton Osborne (who is later incorrectly referred to as K. Milton Osborn). In accordance with WP:WEIGHT if Osborne's claims are presented then contradictory RS information such as that of Kulik should also be presented. We don't need to repeat Osborne's story about a dowel being inserted in a detainee's ear. Nick Turse is the source claiming that war crimes were common and so it is correct to make this clear. We don't list in the See Also section links that are already contained in the body of the page. Mztourist ( talk) 03:55, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
By this diff: [38] I have reverted the 3 July edits by IP 98.28.42.70 who stated "removed outlier opinion unsupported by any other sources" and "removed unsubstantiated claims unsupported by bulk of literature". Gary Kulik is a WP:RS, if you have a problem with the source take it to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard for a review. In relation to the comments that Kulik's claims are "unsupported by bulk of literature" no justification is given for this assertion. In fact the existing sources on the page are all rather biased to one viewpoint and adding Kulik gives WP:WEIGHT to the page and so must be retained, even if some authors like the anonymous IP don't like what he says. Mztourist ( talk) 15:00, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that the first lines be reworked slightly, but I am unwilling to touch the lede of a well-maintained article without consensus. Wikipedia's page preview captures the first part of the lede. This should give people enough info to know whether they want to read the article. Right now, all that shows is the portion up to In 1970, CIA responsibility was phased out, and the program was put und...
A reader (me, for instance) now only knows that it was a CIA program in the Vietnam War which is not very illuminating.
I suggest the first lines be changed to something like, "The Phoenix Program (...) was designed to attack and destroy the political infrastructure of the Viet Cong during the Vietnam War. It was initially coordinated by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) during the Vietnam War, involving..." (links omitted). I am not partial to that particular wording, but hope that we can educate readers better with a little more description at the top. Cheers,
Last1in (
talk)
18:55, 1 July 2024 (UTC)