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I'm very surprised to see that there's no mention of Hawaiian petroglyphs under the "Oceania" section, and only a single mention elsewhere (the caption for an image). There's not even any mention of them on this talk page! Why is this? I will try to work up something in the coming months. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hilokid ( talk • contribs) 21:59, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
as an anthropologist i can say that:
Recent analysis of surveyed and GPS logged petroglyphs around the world has identified commonalities indicating pre-historic (7,000-3,000 B.C.) intense auroras observable across the continents.[5][6] Specific common associated archetypes include: squatting man, caterpillars, ladders, eye mask, kokopelli, spoked wheels, and others.
is poppycock and the two citations are the same article. i have a theory that petroglyphs are recipes from god, i write a paper on it, that's citation enough? please remove.-- 63.80.176.98 ( talk) 00:33, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
'The oldest discovered petroglyphs date back to 200,000-300,000 years old, in the case of glyphs found in a cave in Bhimbetka, India in the 1990s.' This could use a source, since 1) this is pre homo sapiens 2) and Bhimbetka article gives 9,000 date. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-= Confused? =-
The article uses a somewhat odd distinction between petroglyphs, pictograms and cave painting. The images do not match. Moomintrollmania 08:52, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Erm, actually Pictograph, redirects to Pictogram, which has nothing on it about rock art, and cave painting, which overlaps somewhat. I don't think these distinctions are common, it seems like the distinction that we want to make is between carving and painting, perhaps petroglyphs and petrographs. I think we need to re-think this subject a little. Moomintrollmania 01:22, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
"The difference between cave painting and petroglyphs is twofold: first, petroglyphs are carved or engraved, while cave paintings refer to the images painted on stone. Second, petroglyphs are more evolved symbols compared to the cave paintings, showing specific events more clearly."
Hmmm. This is a pretty sweeping and contentious statement. SOME petroglyphs might show "specific events", but many are purely abstract symbols (or abstract to us, now - we can only speculate as to what they may have symbolised to those people who made them). Many similar symbols to those which appear in petroglyphs were also painted onto cave walls (not all cave paintings are representations of animals). SiGarb 19:48, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the comments above about confusion. I found the article really lacking in clarity and substance, as well as grammatical correctness. I did what I could to edit for clarity, while trying not to change the substance, as I'm not an expert on petroglyphs. At least one sentence was so hard to understand that I'm not sure if I changed the meaning or not, because the meaning isn't clear. But even from what I do know, I found some wrong, confusing or out-of-place statements. I also added a picture, deleted 3 others, and rearranged the layout. The article needs more substantive info IMO.
Jeeb 06:19, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
This page is getting out of hand! It really isn't the right place for a mini-essay in support of Fell. The controversy can be alluded to, but the more detailed stuff and more extreme claims are too much, imho. SiGarb 23:15, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Generally, petroglyphs and pictographs fall under the common rubric of "rock art", as studied by archaeologists and art historians (in the United States, at least). Conventionally, petroglyphs are images made by removing part of the rock surface (including by incising, pecking, carving, and abrading the surface), while "pictographs" are images made by applying something to that surface (usually called paint, however, the actual composition of that paint varies widely). Hence, cave paintings (such as Chauvet Cave in France, to give a famous example) are termed pictographs, using these definitions. In the United Kingdom, scholars generally use the terms "carving" and "painting" (and other descriptions of technique) to refer to the image at hand. The term "pictogram" is not one that I have encountered much in the academic literature in reference to prehistoric imagery. However, these terms and definitions are not without controversy.
As for the rest of the article's content, I can only say that it represents a view of ancient imagery that is decidedly out of step with current scholarly research. The linear progression from cave paintings to petroglyphs to pictographs (in the sense of linguistic symbols) is profoundly biased by an understanding of non-Western, non-modern human groups as "primitive" or inferior cultures, progressing along a straight line from savage to civilized. This kind of sequence might be arguably true for some groups and times (Egypt, perhaps, or Mesopotamia) but it is not applicable worldwide.
I agree that the discussion of Fell should be moved--perhaps to an entry of his own? The Ogam idea has affected interpretations of carvings and paintings all over America, and so is important in that respect. However, anyone who wants to know more about it would be wise to check out the external link to "Debunking of Ogam Theory about West Virginia petroglyphs", which explains the (fatal) problems with Fell's work.
Would it not be an idea to move the photos under List of Petroglyph Sites to their respective pages? I find that the pictures on the right hand side of the page leave huge gaps and make it look untidy. Grumpy444grumpy 11:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I find the links to the various petroglyph sites quite disappointing. Why, for instance is there a link to Northumberland, when the Northumberland article does not even mention rock art? Would it not be an idea to link to articles which actually deal with rock art? Oh, and the text still does not flow around the images (I've tried it on 4 different monitors now...) Grumpy444grumpy 09:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I notice there are some photos of painting on rocks in the article and am just wondering why they are inlcuded. At best they are pictographs in an article on petroglyphs, at worst they illustrate vandalism of petroglyphs ("painted to make them more visible"). Just wanted some discussion before I removed them. Zaui 23:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The location of most of the petroglyph sites in my neck of the woods (Nevada) is kept secret to prevent vandalisim. I'm not sure if that's common practice throughout the world or just a local phenomenon. I thought about adding that to the List of Sites section, but maybe that would introduce regional bias. Any thoughts? Toiyabe 23:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the section below, most of which is irrelevant here. It would be more appropriate at Petrified_Forest_National_Park.
I also removed a bizarre link to the Kyrgyz Republic's CONSTITUTION, as I doubt that it is inscribed on tablets of stone! ;-)
SiGarb |
Talk 22:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Present-day links between shamanism and rock-art amongst the San people of the Kalahari desert have been studied by the Rock Art Research Institute (RARI) of the University of the Witwatersrand [1]. Though the San people's artworks are predominantly paintings, the beliefs behind them can perhaps be used as a basis for understanding other types of rock art, including petroglyphs. To quote from the RARI website:
This article was translated and slightly expanded on the Polish Wiki and is now being reviewed as a "Featured article" but there are two sticking points:
Lajsikonik 11:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been very active on Wikipedia, and I'm still a complete novice, but this article really needs to be changed. I'll put it on my list of things to do. As a specialist in the field of rock art study, I really ought to be able to come up with something! Mander 19:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I changed some of the words around, and put in a reference for one of the theories to explain petroglyphs. David Lewis-Williams and Thomas Dowson (both previously associated with RARI, but Dowson is now teaching in the UK) are the best-known researchers responsible for linking San rituals with rock art. Their work had more to do with the paintings but I think they have touched on petroglyphs. Although "San" and "Bushmen" are more or less the same (the term "Bushmen" encompasses more than one language group, I believe), you won't find very many recent scholarly resources that use that term. It is admittedly a "P-C" term, but it is also more correct.
I will add more details to this when I get a chance--it is a vast field and there are many more things that could be mentioned. Mander 00:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The definition at the top should say that this article is talking about petroglyphs of a certain age. An expert could help in determining that number. (The current definition would also cover modern graffiti art.) Tempshill 18:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
What are your opinions on splitting the article into "Petroglyph" and "List of petroglyph sites"? A good chunk of the article is just listing the sites, and I'm thinking it would be easier for the reader, if they could just read about what a petroglyph is, then if they're interested see a list of the sites where they are. Also, I think it would easily pass WP:N, as I think the notability is evident, and there would definitely be plenty of content. Opinions? FingersOnRoids 22:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Can someone explain the difference between a petroglyph and a hieroglyph? They're both written on rock. The only apparent difference seems to be that Egyptian hieroglyphs are perceived as 'sacred', but I'm sure petroglyphs of other cultures had some sacred meanings too. Also, some Egyptian hieroglyphs were about mundane subjects. VenomousConcept ( talk) 10:31, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
I've seen various articles online and on Wikipedia which state that the Bhimbetka rock shelters are the oldest Petroglyphs in the world. Dates given range from 30,000 years to as much as 500,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhimbetka_rock_shelters Javid, Ali and Javeed, Tabassum. World Heritage Monuments and Related Edifices in India. 2008, page 19 http://originsnet.org/bimb1gallery/index.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.166.174 ( talk) 14:52, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
In general, more dates! Although rock engravings and carvings are known to be very difficult to date, one of the most important pieces of information for each site and picture description would be the dating, however uncertain it may be. Istenaldja ( talk) 18:30, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
1. Inscription Rock, Kelleys Island, Erie County, Ohio. 2. Turkeyfoot Rock*, Lucas County, Ohio.
This park is close to a major highway (US 24) and I suspect that Turkeyfoot Rock is being eroded by acid rain.
Musicwriter ( talk) 03:47, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
Obviously we can't mention all the petroglyphs in the world, why should we even try? IMHO everything mentioned here should have a linked article discussing it. Needs a clearup. Doug Weller talk 13:22, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Petroglyphs are cool, they can reflect many historical cultural issues and they are really interesting to appreciation. Nice page.3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.51.93.165 ( talk) 21:12, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
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I tried to create an interwiki to nn:Helleristing but this uintelligible message popped up: "Site link nnwiki:Helleristing is already used by item Q59308258. Perhaps the items should be merged and one of them deleted? Request deletion of one of the items at d:Wikidata:Requests for deletions, or ask at d:Wikidata:Interwiki conflicts if you believe that they should not be merged."
Item Q59308258? What sort of page is this? It mentions the article in a few languages, but this is not an article. Hence, the interwiki is NOT "already used". Oddeivind ( talk) 18:11, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
Is the photograph of Reclining Buddha at Gal Vihara, Sri Lanka actually considered a petroglyph? [File:Polonnaruwa.JPG] It looks like an in-situ stone sculptural relief to me and not a petroglyph. Aren't petroglyphs drawings on rocks created by scraping away the external "varnish" caused by weathering, or by scratching or picking into the surface of the rock? That has been the definition I've been familiar with for decades. Netherzone ( talk) 23:56, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
I'm posting here because I recently undid an edit that stated petroglyphs are the same (synonymous) as petrographs, however they are different. Petroglyphs are produced by making a shallow carving or incision often into the thin layer of "varnish" on caused by weathering (sometimes called " desert varnish") on the face of rocks to produce an image. There are also carved/incised petroglyphs that exist in areas where weathering-varnish is not present, as in the lava rock petroglyphs in Hawaii. Whereas petrographs are a form of parietal art - drawings (often in charcoal) or in pigment (often in red ochre) on the surface of rock. See more at [3]. There's other more scholarly texts that go into the differences in greater detail, but the UNESCO link above is a good general source. Netherzone ( talk) 16:08, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
If there are not substantive objections, I suggest moving the very long list of sites to a separate page. The article overall could use some reorganization (as could the relationship between this and other cave/rock art articles). If no one objects in the next couple of weeks, I'll take the full list of sites to a different page, but keep the galleries of images because they seem important for casual and interested readers. Eikko ( talk) 20:36, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
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I'm very surprised to see that there's no mention of Hawaiian petroglyphs under the "Oceania" section, and only a single mention elsewhere (the caption for an image). There's not even any mention of them on this talk page! Why is this? I will try to work up something in the coming months. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hilokid ( talk • contribs) 21:59, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
as an anthropologist i can say that:
Recent analysis of surveyed and GPS logged petroglyphs around the world has identified commonalities indicating pre-historic (7,000-3,000 B.C.) intense auroras observable across the continents.[5][6] Specific common associated archetypes include: squatting man, caterpillars, ladders, eye mask, kokopelli, spoked wheels, and others.
is poppycock and the two citations are the same article. i have a theory that petroglyphs are recipes from god, i write a paper on it, that's citation enough? please remove.-- 63.80.176.98 ( talk) 00:33, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
'The oldest discovered petroglyphs date back to 200,000-300,000 years old, in the case of glyphs found in a cave in Bhimbetka, India in the 1990s.' This could use a source, since 1) this is pre homo sapiens 2) and Bhimbetka article gives 9,000 date. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-= Confused? =-
The article uses a somewhat odd distinction between petroglyphs, pictograms and cave painting. The images do not match. Moomintrollmania 08:52, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Erm, actually Pictograph, redirects to Pictogram, which has nothing on it about rock art, and cave painting, which overlaps somewhat. I don't think these distinctions are common, it seems like the distinction that we want to make is between carving and painting, perhaps petroglyphs and petrographs. I think we need to re-think this subject a little. Moomintrollmania 01:22, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
"The difference between cave painting and petroglyphs is twofold: first, petroglyphs are carved or engraved, while cave paintings refer to the images painted on stone. Second, petroglyphs are more evolved symbols compared to the cave paintings, showing specific events more clearly."
Hmmm. This is a pretty sweeping and contentious statement. SOME petroglyphs might show "specific events", but many are purely abstract symbols (or abstract to us, now - we can only speculate as to what they may have symbolised to those people who made them). Many similar symbols to those which appear in petroglyphs were also painted onto cave walls (not all cave paintings are representations of animals). SiGarb 19:48, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the comments above about confusion. I found the article really lacking in clarity and substance, as well as grammatical correctness. I did what I could to edit for clarity, while trying not to change the substance, as I'm not an expert on petroglyphs. At least one sentence was so hard to understand that I'm not sure if I changed the meaning or not, because the meaning isn't clear. But even from what I do know, I found some wrong, confusing or out-of-place statements. I also added a picture, deleted 3 others, and rearranged the layout. The article needs more substantive info IMO.
Jeeb 06:19, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
This page is getting out of hand! It really isn't the right place for a mini-essay in support of Fell. The controversy can be alluded to, but the more detailed stuff and more extreme claims are too much, imho. SiGarb 23:15, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Generally, petroglyphs and pictographs fall under the common rubric of "rock art", as studied by archaeologists and art historians (in the United States, at least). Conventionally, petroglyphs are images made by removing part of the rock surface (including by incising, pecking, carving, and abrading the surface), while "pictographs" are images made by applying something to that surface (usually called paint, however, the actual composition of that paint varies widely). Hence, cave paintings (such as Chauvet Cave in France, to give a famous example) are termed pictographs, using these definitions. In the United Kingdom, scholars generally use the terms "carving" and "painting" (and other descriptions of technique) to refer to the image at hand. The term "pictogram" is not one that I have encountered much in the academic literature in reference to prehistoric imagery. However, these terms and definitions are not without controversy.
As for the rest of the article's content, I can only say that it represents a view of ancient imagery that is decidedly out of step with current scholarly research. The linear progression from cave paintings to petroglyphs to pictographs (in the sense of linguistic symbols) is profoundly biased by an understanding of non-Western, non-modern human groups as "primitive" or inferior cultures, progressing along a straight line from savage to civilized. This kind of sequence might be arguably true for some groups and times (Egypt, perhaps, or Mesopotamia) but it is not applicable worldwide.
I agree that the discussion of Fell should be moved--perhaps to an entry of his own? The Ogam idea has affected interpretations of carvings and paintings all over America, and so is important in that respect. However, anyone who wants to know more about it would be wise to check out the external link to "Debunking of Ogam Theory about West Virginia petroglyphs", which explains the (fatal) problems with Fell's work.
Would it not be an idea to move the photos under List of Petroglyph Sites to their respective pages? I find that the pictures on the right hand side of the page leave huge gaps and make it look untidy. Grumpy444grumpy 11:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I find the links to the various petroglyph sites quite disappointing. Why, for instance is there a link to Northumberland, when the Northumberland article does not even mention rock art? Would it not be an idea to link to articles which actually deal with rock art? Oh, and the text still does not flow around the images (I've tried it on 4 different monitors now...) Grumpy444grumpy 09:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I notice there are some photos of painting on rocks in the article and am just wondering why they are inlcuded. At best they are pictographs in an article on petroglyphs, at worst they illustrate vandalism of petroglyphs ("painted to make them more visible"). Just wanted some discussion before I removed them. Zaui 23:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The location of most of the petroglyph sites in my neck of the woods (Nevada) is kept secret to prevent vandalisim. I'm not sure if that's common practice throughout the world or just a local phenomenon. I thought about adding that to the List of Sites section, but maybe that would introduce regional bias. Any thoughts? Toiyabe 23:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the section below, most of which is irrelevant here. It would be more appropriate at Petrified_Forest_National_Park.
I also removed a bizarre link to the Kyrgyz Republic's CONSTITUTION, as I doubt that it is inscribed on tablets of stone! ;-)
SiGarb |
Talk 22:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Present-day links between shamanism and rock-art amongst the San people of the Kalahari desert have been studied by the Rock Art Research Institute (RARI) of the University of the Witwatersrand [1]. Though the San people's artworks are predominantly paintings, the beliefs behind them can perhaps be used as a basis for understanding other types of rock art, including petroglyphs. To quote from the RARI website:
This article was translated and slightly expanded on the Polish Wiki and is now being reviewed as a "Featured article" but there are two sticking points:
Lajsikonik 11:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been very active on Wikipedia, and I'm still a complete novice, but this article really needs to be changed. I'll put it on my list of things to do. As a specialist in the field of rock art study, I really ought to be able to come up with something! Mander 19:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I changed some of the words around, and put in a reference for one of the theories to explain petroglyphs. David Lewis-Williams and Thomas Dowson (both previously associated with RARI, but Dowson is now teaching in the UK) are the best-known researchers responsible for linking San rituals with rock art. Their work had more to do with the paintings but I think they have touched on petroglyphs. Although "San" and "Bushmen" are more or less the same (the term "Bushmen" encompasses more than one language group, I believe), you won't find very many recent scholarly resources that use that term. It is admittedly a "P-C" term, but it is also more correct.
I will add more details to this when I get a chance--it is a vast field and there are many more things that could be mentioned. Mander 00:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The definition at the top should say that this article is talking about petroglyphs of a certain age. An expert could help in determining that number. (The current definition would also cover modern graffiti art.) Tempshill 18:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
What are your opinions on splitting the article into "Petroglyph" and "List of petroglyph sites"? A good chunk of the article is just listing the sites, and I'm thinking it would be easier for the reader, if they could just read about what a petroglyph is, then if they're interested see a list of the sites where they are. Also, I think it would easily pass WP:N, as I think the notability is evident, and there would definitely be plenty of content. Opinions? FingersOnRoids 22:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Can someone explain the difference between a petroglyph and a hieroglyph? They're both written on rock. The only apparent difference seems to be that Egyptian hieroglyphs are perceived as 'sacred', but I'm sure petroglyphs of other cultures had some sacred meanings too. Also, some Egyptian hieroglyphs were about mundane subjects. VenomousConcept ( talk) 10:31, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
I've seen various articles online and on Wikipedia which state that the Bhimbetka rock shelters are the oldest Petroglyphs in the world. Dates given range from 30,000 years to as much as 500,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhimbetka_rock_shelters Javid, Ali and Javeed, Tabassum. World Heritage Monuments and Related Edifices in India. 2008, page 19 http://originsnet.org/bimb1gallery/index.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.166.174 ( talk) 14:52, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
In general, more dates! Although rock engravings and carvings are known to be very difficult to date, one of the most important pieces of information for each site and picture description would be the dating, however uncertain it may be. Istenaldja ( talk) 18:30, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
1. Inscription Rock, Kelleys Island, Erie County, Ohio. 2. Turkeyfoot Rock*, Lucas County, Ohio.
This park is close to a major highway (US 24) and I suspect that Turkeyfoot Rock is being eroded by acid rain.
Musicwriter ( talk) 03:47, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
Obviously we can't mention all the petroglyphs in the world, why should we even try? IMHO everything mentioned here should have a linked article discussing it. Needs a clearup. Doug Weller talk 13:22, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Petroglyphs are cool, they can reflect many historical cultural issues and they are really interesting to appreciation. Nice page.3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.51.93.165 ( talk) 21:12, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Petroglyph. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I tried to create an interwiki to nn:Helleristing but this uintelligible message popped up: "Site link nnwiki:Helleristing is already used by item Q59308258. Perhaps the items should be merged and one of them deleted? Request deletion of one of the items at d:Wikidata:Requests for deletions, or ask at d:Wikidata:Interwiki conflicts if you believe that they should not be merged."
Item Q59308258? What sort of page is this? It mentions the article in a few languages, but this is not an article. Hence, the interwiki is NOT "already used". Oddeivind ( talk) 18:11, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
Is the photograph of Reclining Buddha at Gal Vihara, Sri Lanka actually considered a petroglyph? [File:Polonnaruwa.JPG] It looks like an in-situ stone sculptural relief to me and not a petroglyph. Aren't petroglyphs drawings on rocks created by scraping away the external "varnish" caused by weathering, or by scratching or picking into the surface of the rock? That has been the definition I've been familiar with for decades. Netherzone ( talk) 23:56, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
I'm posting here because I recently undid an edit that stated petroglyphs are the same (synonymous) as petrographs, however they are different. Petroglyphs are produced by making a shallow carving or incision often into the thin layer of "varnish" on caused by weathering (sometimes called " desert varnish") on the face of rocks to produce an image. There are also carved/incised petroglyphs that exist in areas where weathering-varnish is not present, as in the lava rock petroglyphs in Hawaii. Whereas petrographs are a form of parietal art - drawings (often in charcoal) or in pigment (often in red ochre) on the surface of rock. See more at [3]. There's other more scholarly texts that go into the differences in greater detail, but the UNESCO link above is a good general source. Netherzone ( talk) 16:08, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
If there are not substantive objections, I suggest moving the very long list of sites to a separate page. The article overall could use some reorganization (as could the relationship between this and other cave/rock art articles). If no one objects in the next couple of weeks, I'll take the full list of sites to a different page, but keep the galleries of images because they seem important for casual and interested readers. Eikko ( talk) 20:36, 11 April 2023 (UTC)