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Hey guys, so this is a bit of a tricky situation as Persian is both a nationality for the people of Iran/Persia, as well as an ethnic group, of course with members in Afghanestan, and other nations. I believe at the moment the article is most lucid in terms of explaning both concepts while maintaining consistency. The point is that Iranian Peoples are used as a general category while Iranis or Persian people is explained from both a Western perspetive in which it means the People of Iran, and also from an ethnic stand point which Persian refers to an ethncity. Either way this article explains both concepts clearly in its introduction. The sources are valid at this point, and it seems to be the best overall cooperative outcome for this article. I like to know how you feel. Please let me know what you take is and how we can improve it, if it needs a change in your view. Thank you! Dr. Persi ( talk) 06:12, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Here is how some Iranians think: 1) Ferdowsi is Iranian because he was born in Iran. 2) Rudaki was Persian, Persian means Iranian, so Rudaki was Iranian !!! LOL -- Yamaweiss ( talk) 16:36, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 17:30, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I am assuming that since there are no responses to my comments, I must then be right and our Iranian brothers are aware of what they are trying to do here: "Politically motivated historical revisionism"! The question is, as oil reserves are declining and Afghanistan and Central Asia are rebuilding, how long this illigitimate revisionism will last??? Tic Toc, Tic Toc, Tic Toc,...-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 23:47, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I removed the "bold highlight" on the "iranian people". It unnecessarily draws attention to the the "people of Iran", while the topic of the article is the Persian people. Obviously around 65% of the Persians are Iranian citizens, and probably around 50% of all great Persians are from Iran (the rest being from Afghanistan, Central Asia, Mughal India,...), but this doesn't require highlighting the "iranian people". It only diminishes the achievements and contributions of non-Iranain Persians. Thank you.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 03:49, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
I added Dari next to Farsi as the common language shared by Persians. Since Dari is much closer to the original modern Persian language of Khorasan, and since it is the Dari dialect, and not the Farsi one, that was the langua franca of India and the main influence on Urdu/Hindi languages. It is important to know these facts, as to avoid the erroneous belief that Iranian culture or dialect shaped the Mughal culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yamaweiss ( talk • contribs) 03:57, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
User Dr. Persi, your conspiracy theory accusations against other editors are very serious violations of Wikipedia's " assume good faith" (AGF) guideline and " no personal attacks" (NPA) policy. You are not allowed to disqualify editors, such as User:Yamaweiss from editing some articles, simply because of your conspiracy theory accusations against them, as you did here and here. I have been active on Persian and English Wikipedias since 2006. I previously told you that you are free to report me, if you suspect me of Sock puppetry. Please allow other editors to make their contributions as well and stop being so pessimistic or suspicious. Report anyone whom you think is involved in violation of Wikipedia rules, but do not delete their fair and sourced edits, before you made any report.-- Artacoana ( talk) 10:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
A few things I need to say. A few days ago I saw that Afghans were missing from the list of Persian people, I was shocked, so I wantted to change that. Then I saw the discussions of the article, and it was filled with insults and irrelevant demeaning comments against Afghans and Tajiks, such as "Rudaki is Persian but Tajiks are not Persians since they are Mongols" and so on. I was very angry, I felt insulted, so I returned the favor. I do feel bad now about that part, and it will not happen again. However, the editors have to be prompt at removing all demeaning and insulting remarks against Tajiks and Afghans as soon as it appears (even if they are not the one doing the insulting, by the fact that the insults remain on this page they implicitly show their approval or support for those insults - this may not be true, but that's the impression I got at that time, now I know that there are many serious decent people here as well, and I do apologize to them). Second of all, I have no idea what is a socket, I am certainly not a "socket" or anything but a real person. Third of all, I also admit that as soon as I saw all these things I started commenting. In the last two days I've been trying to learn the rules and I will continue learning, I understand now better how the system works and that is fine with me. Last point for now, I still don't understand why my edit were removed. Either someone need to address my points in the talk section, or if they don't then it means I can edit myself. That's the impression I got by reading the rules. I have no problem in following any rules, as long as the rules are just and everyone follow them. But there are still many issues that need to be discussed, since I didn't read anything about it in Wikipedia rules. For instance, who gets to pick what a true reference is? If I find a reference from Afghanistan that says, for instance, that all real Persians are Afghans and that Iraninas are actually Arabs pretending to be Persians, can I us that reference? Who will decide which reference is acceptable or not? Do you have a majority rule? Afghans/Tajiks are minority and of course Iranians are majority so we can never be majority. Is it by consensus, and what if we cannot reach consensus? There are many Iranians who are adamant in believing that Persians are Iranians and Tajiks shouldn't be included as Persians. Me, I am on the other extreme of this debate. As far as I am concerned, Persians began in Sounthern Iran, then, for centuries and millennia, the achievements of Persia came from the region known as Greater Khorasan (the Mashad-Herat-Balkh-Samarkand-Bukhara region). It is this region, and the people of this region, that have produced Ferdowsi, Rumi, Rudaki, Avicenna, and most of the great Persians. It is also from this region that Persian civilization expanded to the rest of Central Asia and South to India where it became the Mughal Empire. All these happened while the West of Persia, today's Teheran and so on, were occupied by Turks and Arabs and didn't contribute at all to the greatness of Persia. Today, however, the Greater Khorasan region is in ruin, the Western Iran region is rich and prosperous, and those Iraninas want to take credit for the achievements of Greater Khorasan, while arguing wither they should include the people of the region as Perians or not. To me this whole debate is laughable and nothing short of hypocrisy. As far as I am concerned, it is the people of Teheran and Western Iran that had nothing to do with Ferdowsi, Rudaki and so on, therefore they shouldn't try to take credit for their greatness. The people of North Eastern Iran, Northern Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and Southern Uzbekistan are the only legitimate heir of Ferdowsi and Rumi. The question is, how can I reach the majority? How can I build consensus? You all know deep down that I am right, are you going to admit that? Or you going to keep my changes and edits? I would appreciate any comments and advices you may have. Thank you.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 13:45, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi guys, These are long posts and I ask calm from everyone. I am from Iran, and I can clearly state that Afghan Persian speakers and Tajiks are also Persians. Unfortunately there some arrogant people from Iran that have different ideas, but none of the users at least in this section (including Dr. Persi) have such an opinion. Also in Wikipedia, you have anonymous banned users who keep showing up and make insults, and it is 100% impossible to even verify where these users are from.
Few points. I noticed that my small edits were undone. Here is the situation, I am planning to change a lot of stuff here, so we remove political propaganada from facts and common sense. However, even my small edits were removed already. What am I supposed to do now? Change back again? I was courteous enough to include some comments regarding the edits I have made in the talk section so people will know the reasons for the changes. I will appreciate the same level of courteousy. If not it will only become a childish game of edits, undo, edits, undo, and so on. -- Yamaweiss ( talk) 17:24, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Dorood bar shomaa baraadar-e aziz, I have made significant changes after reading the talkpage by incorporating your comments in the article . Additionaly, much material was incorporated from :"GHERARDO GNOLI, "IRANIAN IDENTITY" in Encyclopaedia Iranica". I recommend people stay away from non-specialist sources. Since you are a new user, can you please tell me briefly what you believe is missing in this article? That is I would like the opinions of you Dr. Persi, Artacoana and you on what you think needs to be added. I read all of your comments and incorporated them in the introduction, while moving the part about Ancient Persians to the Ancient history and origin section. I also kept all the additions of Dr. Persi but moved a good amount of them to the origin section. I hope he can help in making that section more clear.
Please look at this version: [1] and let me know what you think is missing (with good and reputable academic sources). Note Persians of Central Asia are mentioned several times in the introduction.-- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 17:42, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
I personally prefer your new version much more than the old one, and I believe it truly presents the varieties and mixtures of persian people. I didn't had time to go through the whole article. This is what I will do from now on: I will not touch the main article. Each time I have a point, with reference, I will present it in this talk section, and we can talk about it then. I realize that all of you have been doing this for a long time as volunteers, I appreciate that so I will respect that. My only concern is that people should realize that roughly one third of Persians are non-Iranians, while one-third of Iranains who are Kurds, Jews, Turks and so on are not Persians, therefore non-Persian Iranians. Thank you.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 18:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
I got it now... Dr. Persi thinks I am the same person as the user Artacoana. No I am not. It's just a coincidence. :-) Thank you.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 00:52, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Also, I saw the comments about the edits that Dr. Persi made, it was in the other page. I don't agree with them, but at least he explained the changes. Sorry for a previous comment in which I asked to comment when editing. I didn't saw the other page.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 00:57, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Ok. Thank you.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 12:28, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
The Persian people are characterized by their use of the Persian language, which belongs to the Western branch of Iranian languages within the major Indo-Iranian group of the Indo-European languages.[29][30] Persian people are the predominant ethno-linguistic group of Iran (formerly known to the western world as Persia, thus the adjective "Persian") and a significant minority community in Central asia (including northwestern Afghanistan.[31] Tajikistan, Uzbikistan). The synonymous usage of Iranian and Persian has persisted over the centuries although some modern Western sources use Iranic/Iranian as a wider term that includes both Persian as well as the speakers of other related Iranian languages. The term "Persian people" can both refer to the people of Iran as a pan-ethnic group inhabiting the nation Iran (as Iran is also refered to as Persia), as well as the ethnic Persians who inhabit various other regions.
Hello everyone, I don't want to argue anymore, and I won't change the main article. But I do present my points here so you decide what you want to do with it. The problem in the above part is "a significant minority community in Central asia (including northwestern Afghanistan.[31] Tajikistan, Uzbikistan)". This sentence is confusing. Do you mean that a minority of Central Asia is Persian, or that a minority in each of those countries are Persians? In any case, both of them are wrong. Persians are not a minority in Central Asia. If you add the Tajiks of Tajikistan, Tajiks of Uzbekistan, Tajiks of Afghanistan, and Hazaras, and compare this to other people of Central Asia, which are the Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Turkmens, then the Persian people are probably half, if not more than half, of Central Asia (Central Asia has been Persian for millennia, the whole region used to be Persian lands until the arrival of Uzbeks, Kazaks, Mongols and Russians only a few centuries ago, so it won't be fair to present the native people who are still a majority as the region's minority - that's what the Russian government wanted people to believe, as to separate Central Asia from the Iranian and British zone of influence, and integrate it more easily in the Russian zone of political influence - and the Iranians, knowing that they can't defeat Soviets and claim back Central Asia, simply went along with that notion - now that the Russians have left, things are changing again and the people are looking to Iran as their kin and common root). If you mean a minority by each country, then they are a minority in Uzbekistan (35%), they are a majority in Afghanistan (Persians are not just in North Western Afghanistan, but the whole North as well as most of the population of Kabul), and they are the totality of the people of Tajikistan. Thank you.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 14:51, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
One more comment... We have to realize this: for thousands of years Persian civilization was a vast territory that included Iran, the whole of Central Asia, and neighbouring regions. Then, there were the Arab and Turkish invasions, followed by the Great Game of Britain and Russia, and all of these invasions have reduced the once great Persian culture into a much smaller entity. But as the influence of forign colonialism is now eroding, people are going back to their roots, and those roots are the Persian culture shared by all before all this political mess began. (The Russians controlled Central Asia, while the Pashtune tribes controlled the North of Afghanistan, and all these people tried to destroy the occupied people's Persian identity as to control them easier, and in this vacuum Iran was left as the only heir of all Persian culture (thus, for the first time, thanks to foreighn invasions, iran became persia and persia became iran) - but the Russians have left Central Asia, and most of the people in power in Afghanistan today are the Northern Persians, not the Pashtuns, so they will redefine Afghan identity along the traditional Persian one)-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 15:42, 30 May 2011 (UTC)-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 15:34, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I restored to my version:
So what now, we are going to say that Persians are people of North Western Afghanistan, therefore including Herat but excluding Balkh? And then are we going to keep the achievements of Bactrians as Persian or are we going to remove them from the list of Persian achievements? I really don't understand. My dilemma and question is so simple and obvious and yet nobody wants to answer it. I do understand that others are not obligated to respoond, but when you are adamant in supporting a position, like Dr. Persi, shouldn't you explain or present your case? How else we are going to build consensus? The question is very simple, if you are going to exclude the Bactrians as Persian people,are you going to keep the achievements of Bactrians as Persian achievements or not??? That's the only simple thing I want to know. I will stick with the definition of Khodabandeh, unless someone EXPLAINS to me how "Bactrians are not Persians but their achievements are Persian"!-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 05:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Interesting quote from the Bactria section of Wikipedia: "Regarding Tajiks, the Encyclopædia Britannica states: The Tajiks are the direct descendants of the Iranian peoples whose continuous presence in Central Asia and northern Afghanistan is attested from the middle of the 1st millennium bc. The ancestors of the Tajiks constituted the core of the ancient population of Khwārezm (Khorezm) and Bactria, which formed part of Transoxania (Sogdiana). They were included in the empires of Persia and Alexander the Great, and they intermingled with such later invaders as the Kushāns and Hepthalites in the 1st–6th centuries ad. Over the course of time, the eastern Iranian dialect that was used by the ancient Tajiks eventually gave way to Farsi, a western dialect spoken in Iran and Afghanistan.[14]" This shows that Central Asia and Afghanistan were farsi speaking Iranian people about three millennia ago. Long before the Uzbeks and Turks and Mongols appeared in the region. They are still the dominant people there. They are not a minority.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 05:35, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Dear Khodabandeh, I don't have any problem with your version/current version. I don't want to change your version to add that Tajiks are a majority of Central Asia. I just don't agree with the version proposed by Dr. Persis which erroneously says that Tajiks are a minority in Central Asia. As long as that is not said it's fine with me. I trust your greater experience and informed opinion, so you have my support and you decide how to deal with username Dr. Persis. I will wait a few monthes before directly changing the main article, so I gain some seniority here, as well as experience in using the system. Thank you for your accurate contributions.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 15:11, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I am going through other pages of Wikipedia to see other "persian" related materials. I am shocked how if an author is from today's Iran, his place of birth is presented as Iran, and how if he is outside of Iran, it's written "Greater Iran" or "Persia". How would you feel if we put a persian poet born in Afghanistan as Afghan and those like Ferdowsi, born in Tus, as Greater Afghanistan. You make it look as if this whole process was nothing but an objective assessment based on facts and references, while in reality at every turn the editors have made subjective calls, and have used their own versions and references to support the most hypocrite and insulting version of the past. I was reading the part about persian literatture. It's amazing to read that one of the richest part of the persian literatture (as defined by Wikipedia itself) is the mystic sufi tradition. The bulk of sufi literatture, by people like Rumi and Rabia, was from "Afghanistan", more precisely the Bactrian regions (Balkh and surroundings). Now, that great sufi tradition, which is probably one of the greatest Afghan achievements of all time, one of the greatest gifts of Afghans to mankind, is labelled as "Persian", Rumi and Rabia are labelled as "Persian", while the people of Bactrian region are not included as Persian (I am talking about the version of Dr Persis)??? What kind of "references" or "facts" do you expect me to present so you will correct your hypocrisies? All the facts are in front of you, you have simply decided to ignore the facts, and millennia of history, to serve you narrow nationalistic agenda! Stop pretending that you are somehow an objective and neutral critic! You are nothing more than a bunch of amateurs twisting facts to fit your own agendas!!! -- Yamaweiss ( talk) 17:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yamaweiss ( talk • contribs) 16:59, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello, I sign this way because I can't figure out how to use the other signatures. I tried everything and I keep getting this one. I will appreciate any advice you may have on that part. As far as the references are concerned, you must realize that different references are saying different things regarding these issues. As noted by user Khodabandeh, the Iranian and Islamic encyclopedias have different definitions and interpretations of "Persian" than those found in Britannica. Who gets to decide which of those references are accurate? That's why I am trying to explain everything so people will realize that the Islamic's interpretation is better than the Britannica one. You have to uderstand that a lot of politics is involved here. Many contributeurs of Britannica are people from various places who present their own countries in better light, and tey do not even sign their names, as mentionned by Khodabandeh. Thus, if Britannica says that only North Western Afghanistan is Persian, then it's obvious that politics is involved there (the Eglish have always tried to diminish the achievements of Persia, and the Iranians want to take credit for all the achievements of Persia, so this fulfills both of their agendas!)! There is absolutely no difference between the North Western Afghans and other Afghans in the North or in Kabul. This is only a fabrication in order to divide the Afghan people and tarnish their legacy. In any case, as I mentionned, if you do include only the North Western Afghanistan as persian people, then why do you include the achievements of North and North Eastern Afghanistan as Persian achievements??? This is a matter of JUDGEMENT and not REFERENCES! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yamaweiss ( talk • contribs) 17:53, 31 May 2011 (UTC) -- Yamaweiss ( talk) 18:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
According to Encyclopedia Britannica, Rumi was born in Balkh (Afghanistan), while Ferdowsi was born in Tus (Iran). Both of these are FACTS backed by your BRITANNICA! Now, however, why is it that in Wikipedia, for Ferdowsi we have “Born: Tus”, while for Rumi we have “Region: Rum, Persia”??? This is why I am angry, because I have never seen such lack of consistency and open hypocrisy in my life!!! If you put place of birth for Ferdowsi, which is Iran, then you should also put place of birth for Rumi, which is Afghanistan. If you will put “region” for Rumi, rather than place of birth, then you should also put “region” for Ferdowsi, which was Tus, Kingdom of Samanids, a BACTRIAN kingdom!!! In Britannica, there IS a consistency, since they always put the place of birth, but in Wikipedia, they pick and choose, wither to put place of birth or “region” (Whatever that’s supposed to mean!!!)., whatever fancy their political agendas!!! And you want me to be polite??? Most of you in Wikipedia are Iranians, and you have turned it into a laughing stock, and what do you suggest I do? All I am asking is for CONSISTENCY!!!! If you put place of birth for ONE Persian, put place of birth for ALL Persians. If you put “region” for ONE Persian, then put region for ALL Persians! This has nothing to do with the Reference issues, it has to do with INTEGRITY, DIGNITY and TRUTHFULNESS, all “Persian” values that many of you seem to have FORGOTTEN! You like BRITANNICA, fine, stick to it ALL THE WAY!!! Don’t give up BRITANNICA whenever it stops fulfilling your patriotic agenda! -- Yamaweiss ( talk) 18:41, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I just bought a subscription to Britannica. I will go through all the sources there, and present the results to all of you, hopefully you will not tell me then that Britannica is not a reliable source!!!-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 18:48, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Please read some books. If you didnt know, afghans and persian have fought many time. Can you believe that 2 people of the same kind would fight eachother? I think afghans should just be proud of themselves and stop leaching and trying to cling on to us. 2 different people, please understand.... Sharing a language does not mean the same ethnicity and genetics. SOUTH AMERICANS ALL SPEAK SPANISH. DOes that mean they are all spaniards? NO. Majority are natives. SO get your facts together
I can't do this anymore. I am going to sign out. Sorry if I have offended any of you. I just hope that your desire for truth will be greater than your patriotic feelings. -- Yamaweiss ( talk) 20:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
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Tajiks from Afghanistan are Persianized Pashtuns. Tajiks from Tajikistan are soghdians and pamiris not Persians. Persians are only in Iran. Afghanistan is 80% Pashtun ethnically, some Pashtun changed their language during occupation of afghanistan and start speaking Dari just like Hazara that are mongolians and speak Dari. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.31.211.97 ( talk) 22:31, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
An ethnicity is defined by factors of common heritage, history, culture and language not just language alone. The Persians of Iran and the Tajiks of Afghanistan/Tajikistan (Tajikistan to lesser extent) may share that but the Hazara people do not share anything bar a language.
The Hazaras are a distinct ethnic group by themselves and cannot be denied their right as one, this is fact and are treated as a distinct ethnic group in all academia etc, and cannot be deemed ethnic Persians. Please cite any credible source specifically categorizing them as ethnic Persians before including them here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aryan Pars ( talk • contribs) 01:39, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
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Zoroaster was not a Persian, because there were simply no Persians back then, only Iranians. Mithridates is a Parthian, Mani might have been a babylonian, Khwarizmi was a Khwarizmian with a distinct language from Persian (so was Biruni) and Rhazes was most probably a Central Iranian (a typical Medean). Also, Nizami is ethnically Azeri, Babak was from an Azeri mother and a Hamadani (Medean) father, Alhazen might have been an Arab. There are so many factual fallacies in this section and they are all in conflict with statements already present in Wikipedia itself. Avicenna was tajik, Mossadegh was azerbaijani.
Seriously, why do we need so many pictures of Persians in the first place, is that necessary? حضرت محمود ( talk) 16:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Persian refers to specifically the language/cultural and ethnic group that can be associated (predominately) with the original Persians whom settled and ruled the Iranian plateau. Persians make up about 40-50% of the modern population, and are diminishing by each generation. Obviously, Turkmen, Iranian 'Arabs', Assyrians, Balochis (with clearly unique genetic histories), can't be considered Persians - though they are all (geographically) 'Iranians'. I understand the pan-nationalistic view that is been upheld by some, but that length of simplification is absurd - as is the stance that this article takes. However, it is worth noting that year after year, and notably since the 1979 revolution, Iran is becoming less of a 'Persian' nation, and more a nation of 'Iranians', with an identity that is evolving culturally, genetically, and politically. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.196.88.228 ( talk) 02:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Its strange that Freddie Mercury hasn't been included in the list of Persians on the front page. Freddie was a Parsi, which means that he was descendant of Persians who fled to India from Iran after the Arab conquest to retain their religion (Zoroastrianism). Besides his obvious cultural and ethnical links with Persians, Freddie was proud of his Persian ancestry too. I quote:
His background made his sense of identity complex. Being a Parsee meant he identified more with his Persian ancestry than India, where his parents were brought up and he was educated. Hurtfully, there were people who said he was burying his Asian roots. Roger Cooke, his brother in law, said: "To an English mind, Asian means Indian. It doesn't in Freddie's particular case, he was Persian by ancestry. He was accused of denying his Indian heritage. I don't think he ever did, but if he did, it would have been because he was Persian." His mother added: "Freddie was a Parsee and he was proud of that, but he wasn't particularly religious." [2]
Could someone adjust the list?
Thanks in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.173.202.165 ( talk) 05:24, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Please upgrade this paragraph so it says "Persian carpets" instead of Persian rugs. The proper term is carpet.
Persian cultural contributions include artistic (Persian rugs, Persian artworks and crafts, miniature paintings, calligraphy), linguistic (Persian literature and poetry), Societal (Architectural influences, customs & clothing, Gardening, music, social norms and standards), culinary, political and ceremonial (Nowruz festivity, Chaharshanbe Suri festival) contributions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.238.112.226 ( talk) 00:32, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Section Persian Rugs should be renamed Persian Carpets
Also, the section is very poorly written. The carpet weaving centers of Nain and Qom are not even mentioned. Nain carpets are among the most highly desired carpets in the world today and the Nain 4La carpets rank as the finest, are exhorbantly expensive, and quite rare.
The carpet section should make a clear distinction between city-woven carpets and nomad carpets. None of the famous nomad carpet producing tribes are mentioned, which should include the Qasqai, Lori, Bakhtiari, Asfar, Kurdi, Turkamen, Afghan, and the Persian Gabbeh (mostly produced by the Qasqai). Persian carpets are actually knotted, not woven. The woven carpets are classified as kilim. More photographs are required. There should also be mentioned the age classification of carpets: antique, semi-antique, and new as these directly affect the value of a carpet.
Upon request, I would be willing to write a complete section with references and photographs. I may be contacted at martimasters@gmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.238.112.226 ( talk) 00:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Done. You should just go ahead and rewrite it if you want to improve it. Irānshahr ( talk) 02:32, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
He is the eight president of Israel, and is a Persian Jew, probably one of the prominent Persian Jews, despite that Iran and Israel may be enemy states. PacificWarrior101 ( talk) 04:32, 7 September 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
This article is not clearly about a people but peoples. I suggest this to move to "Persian peoples". "peoples" who all called Persian irrespective of their dialectical and language differences.- Raayen ( talk) 18:22, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
Someone misspelled Parthian Empire, and that made the wikilink show up RED. Let's use some common sense: the primary cause of a RED wikilink is a misspelled word. Please listen. 98.81.4.240 ( talk) 00:14, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
There is a typo in the section "Traditions" - see the bolded word below, it should be stri'pp'ed with 2 p's not striped with a single 'p'.
Traditions Further information: Nowruz and Chaharshanbe Suri One of the most well known cultural traditions dating back to the Achaemenid era is the tradition of Nowruz or the celebration of the new year by the Achaemenids.[89] Nowruz has Zoroastrian roots, but has since the time of Islam been mostly striped of its Zoroastrian references.
69.158.30.58 ( talk) 02:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Not moved for lack of consensus. There is no overriding policy compelling the article to have one title or the other, and no consensus in favor of the proposed move. bd2412 T 19:42, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Persian people → Persians – The name "Persian" and "Persians" is common in English media as an ethnicity and people of certain ethnic group. I suggest to remove "people" from the article name. Persian as an ethnicity is common, there is no need to clarify it with "people". The plural form "Persians" is much better than "Persian people". Like other articles in En Wiki for ethnic groups. Also the "Persians" is more common than "Persian people". For example compare Google search (books) for them: Persians and Persian people. Also in other European language, the plural form is common. For example, in French language: Persans. I suggest to move this article. When "Persians" is widely used in many sources (from history and scholary sources to news content), why not to use it in English Wikipedia? It's a better name for this article. Like many articles that use "Xs" instead of "X people". Zyma ( talk) 19:31, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
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. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Comment: Per Wikipedia policies and rules, we should use the most common name for the articles. "Persians" is more common than "Persian people". Just search books, articles, papers, scholary sources, academic references, web contents, and etc. You will see most of them use "Persians" instead of "Persian people". "Persians" directly refer to an ethnicity not anything else. For example, do internet users search "Greeks vs. Persians" or "Greeks vs. Persian people"? Clearly, they search "Persians". It's not confusing. "Persians" has a clear meaning, specially in the modern and new sources. Nobody use the name "Persians" for the "Persian cats"!. Compare the title of En Wiki article with other Wikis. "Persians" means Persian ethnicity or Persian-speaking person. Supporters of this move request wrote reasonable comments and discussed the benefits of this rename, so this move process is reasonable and helpful for this article and future searches. -- Zyma ( talk) 18:42, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Problem: the proposed title Persians is already taken by a dab page, so this RM is malformed and should be cancelled. Dicklyon ( talk) 03:37, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
The article uses both of them. I suggest we instead use "Persian" as the term mainly because:
1. "Iranian" might be confusing and make readers believe that we are solely speaking of Iranian people/people from modern day Iran, which is obviously not the case.
2.In the history section a lot of the content involves other Persian peoples, such as forexample East-Persian-Tajiks.
--
90.149.188.205 (
talk)
22:37, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
The sources indicated in the infobox (starting from Tajikistan) are messed up. Somebody should correct them. Nataev talk 11:43, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
After reading the discussion above, I want to add that this article and the whole matter needs an extreme overhaul. Both denotations 'Persian People and Iranians on Wikipedia are far to confusing and misleading.
Even though Iranian is a nationality and Persian an ethnicity, I think it might be helpful to create a separate article for the people of Iran, naming it Iranians, while maintaining this article only for the peoples of ethnic Persian descent.
By that way, it's far easier for people to know what they're searching for; either the ethnicity (Persians), or people from the country Iran/who have Iranian nationality (whether Armenians, Persians, Georgians, Azeri's, Kurds etc)
I think the Iranian diaspora article can help greatly with forming that.
LouisAragon ( talk) 22:27, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved; premature attempt. Previous RM was at /Archive_7#Requested_move_03_January_2014. No such user ( talk) 12:51, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Persian people →
Persians – Common and standard form. --Relisted.
Armbrust
The Homunculus 10:47, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Jaqeli (
talk)
13:42, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.This has already been discussed before, look up above. -- Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust ( talk) 20:36, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Tajiks in Uzbekistan for a lot longer than it says there are about 6-11 million on non formal assessment — Preceding unsigned comment added by Franrasyan ( talk • contribs) 13:57, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
I came across this article months ago and thought it was a nice read. Now I have come back to see it has been completely changed. Everything regarding Tajiks has been completely wiped by a user named "LouisAragon" (who thankfully is banned). The reason he gives for his edits is that Tajiks are diaspora(which is wrong) and should have info on a separate page(which they do, but is no reason to completely wipe them from this page). Yet he leaves all the other diaspora populations including the US, Germany and UAE on this page. I feel his edits are not to make this article more accurate or less confusing but are just from a bigoted position. To add insult to injury he leaves some very prominent Tajiks on the famous people part - including Al-Khwarizmi, Biruni, Avicenna and Rumi, all while stating Tajiks have no place on this page.
I have no idea how to edit the article to the old version, that reflected "Persian people" a lot better, in fact I don't even have an account. I'm just hoping that someone who does know how to do it or an admin sees this and fixes this skewed article up.
Kind Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.186.71 ( talk) 06:08, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
the iranians and afghans are two different people. every one knows that. iranians and afghans are not one single people. the article is misleding and wrongful. pls fix the article. this article is completely unencyclopaedic.-- Farscheed ( talk) 07:17, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
afghanis are not persians, austrians speak german but are not germans and they do not consider themselves as germans, they are neither considered germans by the people of germany, the people of switzerland speak french but they are only swiss and it is wrong to call the swiss peoiple as french people. the people of belgium speak dutch, but they are not dutch or netherlanders, the people of brazil speak portuguese but they are not portuguese people. they are brazilians speaking portuguese. the people of ghana speak english but they are not english. and finally the afghans speak a dialect of persian. but they are not persians racially or ethnically or historically. afghans are ethnically and racially a mixed nation. the tajiks, are related to people of central asia, to the people of uzbekistan, turkmenistan and tajikistan. the tajiks of afghanistan look exactly the same as tajik and uzbeks because they are the same. the hazaras are not related to the iranian or persian race, they are of mongol origin, their hazaragi language which is a dialect of dari language, is heavily mixed with the momgolian languiage, their look and appearence attest to the fact that they are only assimilated mongols. even the word hazara is a millitary unit which describe that they were a part of the mongol chengiz khan army who destroyed civilization of iran including nishabur and tus and many other cities of khorasan. (khorasan is in iran and is iranian, not afghani or afghanistan).
tajiks are iranized or persianized central asians, like uzbeks are turkified central asian people. tajik is NOT a synonym of persian or iranian, tajik only refered to people of central asia which became iranized, even the tajiks of china which speak and iranic language which is not persian language, they the tajiks of china are called tajiks by the chinese government, this is because they speak an iranic language, whether be persian or what else. the term tajik were invented by the turkic speaking central asian to differentiate themselves from the iranic speaking central asians, even when the northwestern iran was turkified the turkic speaking iranians called the iranian speaking iranians tats, which means non.turk. tajiks was at the beginning only meaning non turk and later was used to call the iranic speaking central asians. the words tats and tajiks are etymolically related but two totally different things, like the words dutch and deutsch is etymologically related but dutch mean netherlander and deutsch mean german, tats are iranians speaking iranians living in turkic areas of iran, tajiks are iranic speaking central asians neighbur with turks of central asia.
so the conclusion is that tajik do not mean iranian, even if it was meaning iranians (which it is not) it would be a linguistic term, like germanic, which do not mean german, and slavic which do not mean slovakian.
the aryans where living in southern russia over 3000 years ago, and 3000 years ago they migrated due to the cold weather, one part of the aryan people migrated to north india, today the people of north india, and pakistan and bangladesh which where later splitted from the northern india, today these countries, bangladesh, pakistan and india are the ancient aryans who migrated to the ganges palin. and one part of the aryan race migrated to iran, they became divided to three tribes, one persian tribe, who migrated to southern iran, one was called median who migrated to central iran, and one who called parthians and migrated to a region in northeastern iran which they later called parthia, parthia was neighbur of central asia, turkmenistan to the north, exactly the todays turkmen.iranian border to the north, parthia was in east limited to hariva, which is todays afghanistans herat province. so the iranian race, people, nation, ethnicity was limited to todays border of iran, and afghanis are not iranian by ethnicity.
khorasan was a term which was invented by the sassanid iranians, in presassanid times it was called parthia, which was called because of the parthians which where iranians and aryans, but in sassanid times they called it khorasan, meaning the place of sunrise, meaning east in old persians, because khorasan was located in eastern iran, at the same time, they called the western part of iran khorbaran, meaning west, they called todays iraq which was then part of iran and western iran as khorbaran. later in islamic times, khorasan was used to refer to parts of turkmenistan and afghanistan, but the real and original khorasan was still iran.
the most important thing is that let alone the fact that afghanis are not iranian or persian, they are even not considered persian by the iranian people. if you tell an iranian that an afghan is persian, he will be surprized and he or she will not like that and will not accept that. so the afghanis (those who call themselves persians) they are not persian, they are only wannabe persians, they shoukd be proud of their afghan and tajik nation and ethnicity, because as long as they are acting like wannabe persians, the iranians and afghans wil not have a good friendship relation, why iranians do not think the same of iraqis or azarbaijanis, or pakistanis, as they are thinking of afghans, because these countries are not wannabe persians despite the fact that iraq was called dele iranshahr, or heart of iran in sassanid times, despite that the most famous persian poet is an azarbaijani called nizami ganjavi, he has statue in many countries, and pakistanis having contributed to persian literature and civilizaiton
every language is beautiful on earth, but some languages are melodic and musical, and persian is one of the most melodic languages, and when some europeans or westerners say that persian is a beautiful language they only mean the language of iran, and not afghanistan, because it is the the farsi language which is meldodic and musical, the afghanis speak and pronounce the dari accent totoally different, and you can not hear the farsi or iranian accent from them when they talk.
the most correct persian dialect is the tehrani persian, and the most original and real persian dialect is luri and bandari, lari, and dezfuli dialects, because these dialects are descended from middle persian, or pahlavi as it was called. and the orginal persian language before the current language was pahlavi, the speakers of the mentioned languages and cities are still in the same area and region where pahlavi or middle persian was spoken, bccause it was spoken in southern iran especially fars and khuzestan province.
so dari is not the original persian language as someone claim, dari is mixed heavily with turkmen and uzbek and pashtun and mongol and hindi words, so you can not say that the farsi language is mixed and unreal, but dari is real and unmixed.
the dari word which is mentioned by some authors has not anything to do with afghanistan, because it was in 1960 the afghan state changed the name of the language from tajiki to dari, so dari is originally an iranian word, not afghan, even hafez have talked about dari and he did not mean anything afghan, and even the farsi dialect of zartoshtians in kerman and yazd todays is called dari by themselves. even many kermanis and yazdid call their sweet persian dialect and accent dari, and they are not afghans. they are iranians.
it is not only the afghan that have adapted the culture of iran, and it is not the only afghans that have history shared with iran, the whole europe share the history of roman empire, even egypt and libya and libanon and iraq and azarbaijan and armenia and georgia share history with iran, afghanistan was never part of iran, it was part of iranian empires, the iranian empire included many nations and countries.
the article about persian people, should be changed to iranian people, and personalities of todays iran, should be mentioned in the artike and have pitcures, not only ancient persons, and the article should be name iranian people, also called persians. because every nation and country have article on wikipedia, but the iranian people do not have. and one other article should be created for the afghans mentioning afghan personalities and subjects related to todays afghanistan.
because afghans and iranians, despite speaking closely related languages, are two different nations and ethnic groups, and are not the same people as the article claims.
-- Iranmehr27 ( talk) 04:49, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
as i argued in the text and i prooved that afghans are not persians by the ethnic definitoion, because they are iranized and persianized central asians, like uzbeks who are turkified central asians, they where formerly called sarts because they changed their name to uzbek and tajik.
the people of iran was NOT At All and never called tajiks. the word used for iranians was ajam or ajami, because when the arabs were conquering iran, they called them ajams, meaning non arab at the beginning and later it was restricted specifically to iranians. so the iranians was only called ajams. they where never called tajiks. only the central asians who got iranized were called tajiks by their turkic neighboors.
and yes the most restrictive defintion of the word persian is that persian is a person from iran, espeicially in united states, most iranians self identify as persians, and the iranians in the US are known as persian by most americans, and persia is the former name of iran, and persian is the former adjective of iran, and since the second shah of the last iranian monarchy, in 1960 declared that both persia and iran can be used as synonyms, so the word persian is only the synonym of iranian, and iranians, whithou regard of ethnicity are persians. because persian is only a synonym adjective of iranian. you can not say googoosh and dariush, iranian most famous female and male singers who are ethnically azarbaijani, and shapour bakhtiar, a Lor and nima youshij, founder of modern persoan poetry, you can not say these people are not persians. they are as persian as other originally persian speaking personalities.
so according to the most correct, accepted and famous definition the term persian excludes afghans. because the word persian is a synonym of iranian. it is only some afghans who like to be called persians. no other person consider them as persians. -- Iranmehr27 ( talk) 06:02, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
my former text was in response of the unsigned comment> beginning with Kind Regards
-- Iranmehr27 ( talk) 06:03, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
every nation and people on earth have article on wikipedia, even stateless people like gypsies and assyrians have, but iranians have not their own article on wikipdeia. i request some administrator of wikipedia to change the name of this article to iranian people. and the article be limited to iranian and not afghans. because the germans and austrians, or swiss and the french, and portuguese and brazilians, and even americans and english people are not mixed in their articles of wikipedia. this article is totally misleading.
i know that many afghans would like to be considered persians, but by most correct and accepted definition they are not regarded as persians. even in this article they are not fully acknoledged as persians. If Really afghans are persians, then please add some pictures of afghans, like the persident hameed karsay, or add some pictures of afghans singers, politicans, directors, and actors side by side with the iranians personalities in the image section on the top of the article. please do that, this article should either be for iranian people and if if you mix iranians and afghans here, then please add pictures of afghans also, one of the persons who should have picture on this article is hameed kasay, because he is the most famous afghan person.-- Iranmehr27 ( talk) 06:14, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
No Lysozym i am not almost completely wrong, actually you know that my knowledge is almost entirely true and correct thats why you did not dare to say it is completely wrong, you say it is Almost completely wrong, but believe me whatever what i said is based on the general historical sources, so you are wrong, not me. i doubt you yourself understand the meaning of the culture, ethnicity, nationality and citizanship, but you can be sure that afghanis (your nationality) is neither persian or iranian in the contexts of citizenship, ethnicity, nationality. only the culture of afghans is iranian, but you can not say afghans are iranian or persian because they have some elements of iranian culture, many nations in west asia have iranian or persian cultural elements but are not iranians,example the azaris or iraqis. by the way culture have many definitions, i once read that culture have as much as 300 definitions. no you are not considered persian by any book, nation, organization or history and last but the best one by iranian people. the afghan tajiks are ethnic relatives of other tajiks and uzbeks of central asia, and hazaras are ethnic relatives of mongols. and neither tajiks or hazaras have the iranian or persian appearence. none of them look iranian or persian, the fact is that, at least in my opinion pakistanis and indians, despite being little more colored than iranians, they, indians and pakistanis look iranian and persian.
no it is you that are ignorant to historical facts, even if one or some author or writer said that iranians are tajiks this does not make iranians tajiks
Friedrich Arnold Brockhaus perhaps he called some people tajiks, but that does not mean he meant the tajiks of central asia or the tajiks of tajikistan or afghanistan.
in the army of safavid empire there where two grouups who made the army of the state, one groups were turkic speakings, they became knows as torks, and one groups were speaking iranic languages, this groups of army consisting of iranic speaking groups of iran, they became known as tajiks, again i say, tajiks here only is a linguistic term to differentiate turkic speaking and iranic speaking groups. it is a difference between germanic and german, and iranian and iranic. so the author Friedrich Arnold Brockhaus only called a group of the iranian safavid army as tajiks, this was not a term which was widely used, it was only used to differentiate turkic and iranic speakers in his book. So the Friedrich Arnold Brockhaus, meant only iranic speakings peoples by the terms tajik, and he meant iranic speaking groups like lors, because they did not speak turkic, Friedrich Arnold Brockhaus did not mean anything afghan or tajikistani.
but> here you are not only claiming and wanting to be a persian, your claims are bigger, you even claim and want the iranian nation to call themselves tajiks. so you want afghans to call themselves persians, and you want iranians to call themselves tajiks, all this shows a inferiority complex of the people who have such a funny, wrong and meaningless claims.
i dont care if afghans call themselves aryans or not, i am not trying to convince or force you to dont call yourself aryan, and even if i convince you that afghans are not aryans, i can not stop other afghans to say or think they are aryans.
so you can keep saying or considering yourself aryan, but according to the history, afghans are not aryans, aryans are the people of ancient north india and iran, and two countries splitted from north india, pakistan and bangladesh, so the fact is that, at least in my opinion who have read many books, the fact is that aryans are the people of india, pakistan, bangladesh and iran. the people of these 3 first countries, despite being little darker, are still looking like iranian people, this mean they may have been one people before splitiing and dividig.
at least in my opinion, afghans are not aryans, and what is that so important about aryans, in my opinion the pakistanis are aryans, but they dont care at all about aryan, they are proud of their nation and culture and dont discuss so much about aryan, and even indians and iranians, only the nationalists talk about aryan, the general indian or iranian nations are not so busy about the aryan race despite being the true aryans.
the only people who are not aryans and like to be wannabe aryans are afghans. it is better for afghans to be proud of their current culture, than a thing that existed 3000 years ago. in farsi we say, dashtam dashtam hesab nist, daram daram hesab ast, meaning it is not important what you had, it is important what you have now.
i am residing in a country that a famous magazine for 10 years ago, the magazine wrote that iran is an arab nation, this is totally wrong, everyone knows that, so after 10 years the magazine said iran is an arab nation, iran is still not arab and did not became an arab nation,iran is stlll a persian nation and not arab, what i mean by mentioning this is that you can not change reality and history, in persian language we iranians say, ba kesafate sag darya kasif nemishe, meaning with the dirt of a dog, the sea does not get dirty. meaning you can not change reality.
so you can never change the reality that afghans are not persians , even if you convince the magazine new york times to write that afghans are persians you can not change reality and history. hehehe because afghans and tajiks are not persians, they are persianized (linguistic term) central asians.
be proud of your culture, not claim being another nationality or ethnicity, and do not claim and say iranians are tajiks or were known as tajiks for 100 years ago, this is not a relevant or actual issue. all of these show your inferiority complex
-- Iranmehr27 ( talk) 01:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I request some administrators of wikipedia to change the name of this article to iranian people and limit the article to iranian people. Because iranians and afghans can not be mixed here. this is totally wrong. An administrator did that but was later reverted by some afghan wannabe iranians. even afghans are not fully acknowledged as persians in this article, because although in terms of population statistics, it is mentioned at the top of the article how many percent are afghans, but they dont have any pictures of afghan people. because no afghan dare do that and afghan know that if he add pictures of afghans by side of iranian people, it will make people laugh. so please i request an admin of wikipedia to change the name of the article to iranian people and delete every thing about afghanistan, because every nation in the world have wikipedia article but iranians dont have, like the articles of french, italian, norwegian or swedish peoples.
and create an article for afghans of their own.
Lysozym, i have a master degree in persian literature, so dont call me uneducated, it is you that are uneducated, like your...fellow....yes this is encyclopaedia not your blog to say that iranians and afghans are brothers.haha.......i feel very proud of my iranian nation and dont say we iranians are brothers to any nation, but you have inferiority comoplex because you create videos on youtube and write articles for iranians in wikipedia and say afghans are the brothers of iranians and the same nation. is not this an iferiority complex that you have, you are a troll who feel inferior.stop sayng that iranians and afghanis are the same, you will never be accepted as persian and never look like persian and never be a part of iranian nation and country. you are so ignorant and uneductaed. some thing you really are is this: Wannabe Persian with inferiority complex.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
Hey guys, so this is a bit of a tricky situation as Persian is both a nationality for the people of Iran/Persia, as well as an ethnic group, of course with members in Afghanestan, and other nations. I believe at the moment the article is most lucid in terms of explaning both concepts while maintaining consistency. The point is that Iranian Peoples are used as a general category while Iranis or Persian people is explained from both a Western perspetive in which it means the People of Iran, and also from an ethnic stand point which Persian refers to an ethncity. Either way this article explains both concepts clearly in its introduction. The sources are valid at this point, and it seems to be the best overall cooperative outcome for this article. I like to know how you feel. Please let me know what you take is and how we can improve it, if it needs a change in your view. Thank you! Dr. Persi ( talk) 06:12, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Here is how some Iranians think: 1) Ferdowsi is Iranian because he was born in Iran. 2) Rudaki was Persian, Persian means Iranian, so Rudaki was Iranian !!! LOL -- Yamaweiss ( talk) 16:36, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 17:30, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I am assuming that since there are no responses to my comments, I must then be right and our Iranian brothers are aware of what they are trying to do here: "Politically motivated historical revisionism"! The question is, as oil reserves are declining and Afghanistan and Central Asia are rebuilding, how long this illigitimate revisionism will last??? Tic Toc, Tic Toc, Tic Toc,...-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 23:47, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I removed the "bold highlight" on the "iranian people". It unnecessarily draws attention to the the "people of Iran", while the topic of the article is the Persian people. Obviously around 65% of the Persians are Iranian citizens, and probably around 50% of all great Persians are from Iran (the rest being from Afghanistan, Central Asia, Mughal India,...), but this doesn't require highlighting the "iranian people". It only diminishes the achievements and contributions of non-Iranain Persians. Thank you.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 03:49, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
I added Dari next to Farsi as the common language shared by Persians. Since Dari is much closer to the original modern Persian language of Khorasan, and since it is the Dari dialect, and not the Farsi one, that was the langua franca of India and the main influence on Urdu/Hindi languages. It is important to know these facts, as to avoid the erroneous belief that Iranian culture or dialect shaped the Mughal culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yamaweiss ( talk • contribs) 03:57, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
User Dr. Persi, your conspiracy theory accusations against other editors are very serious violations of Wikipedia's " assume good faith" (AGF) guideline and " no personal attacks" (NPA) policy. You are not allowed to disqualify editors, such as User:Yamaweiss from editing some articles, simply because of your conspiracy theory accusations against them, as you did here and here. I have been active on Persian and English Wikipedias since 2006. I previously told you that you are free to report me, if you suspect me of Sock puppetry. Please allow other editors to make their contributions as well and stop being so pessimistic or suspicious. Report anyone whom you think is involved in violation of Wikipedia rules, but do not delete their fair and sourced edits, before you made any report.-- Artacoana ( talk) 10:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
A few things I need to say. A few days ago I saw that Afghans were missing from the list of Persian people, I was shocked, so I wantted to change that. Then I saw the discussions of the article, and it was filled with insults and irrelevant demeaning comments against Afghans and Tajiks, such as "Rudaki is Persian but Tajiks are not Persians since they are Mongols" and so on. I was very angry, I felt insulted, so I returned the favor. I do feel bad now about that part, and it will not happen again. However, the editors have to be prompt at removing all demeaning and insulting remarks against Tajiks and Afghans as soon as it appears (even if they are not the one doing the insulting, by the fact that the insults remain on this page they implicitly show their approval or support for those insults - this may not be true, but that's the impression I got at that time, now I know that there are many serious decent people here as well, and I do apologize to them). Second of all, I have no idea what is a socket, I am certainly not a "socket" or anything but a real person. Third of all, I also admit that as soon as I saw all these things I started commenting. In the last two days I've been trying to learn the rules and I will continue learning, I understand now better how the system works and that is fine with me. Last point for now, I still don't understand why my edit were removed. Either someone need to address my points in the talk section, or if they don't then it means I can edit myself. That's the impression I got by reading the rules. I have no problem in following any rules, as long as the rules are just and everyone follow them. But there are still many issues that need to be discussed, since I didn't read anything about it in Wikipedia rules. For instance, who gets to pick what a true reference is? If I find a reference from Afghanistan that says, for instance, that all real Persians are Afghans and that Iraninas are actually Arabs pretending to be Persians, can I us that reference? Who will decide which reference is acceptable or not? Do you have a majority rule? Afghans/Tajiks are minority and of course Iranians are majority so we can never be majority. Is it by consensus, and what if we cannot reach consensus? There are many Iranians who are adamant in believing that Persians are Iranians and Tajiks shouldn't be included as Persians. Me, I am on the other extreme of this debate. As far as I am concerned, Persians began in Sounthern Iran, then, for centuries and millennia, the achievements of Persia came from the region known as Greater Khorasan (the Mashad-Herat-Balkh-Samarkand-Bukhara region). It is this region, and the people of this region, that have produced Ferdowsi, Rumi, Rudaki, Avicenna, and most of the great Persians. It is also from this region that Persian civilization expanded to the rest of Central Asia and South to India where it became the Mughal Empire. All these happened while the West of Persia, today's Teheran and so on, were occupied by Turks and Arabs and didn't contribute at all to the greatness of Persia. Today, however, the Greater Khorasan region is in ruin, the Western Iran region is rich and prosperous, and those Iraninas want to take credit for the achievements of Greater Khorasan, while arguing wither they should include the people of the region as Perians or not. To me this whole debate is laughable and nothing short of hypocrisy. As far as I am concerned, it is the people of Teheran and Western Iran that had nothing to do with Ferdowsi, Rudaki and so on, therefore they shouldn't try to take credit for their greatness. The people of North Eastern Iran, Northern Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and Southern Uzbekistan are the only legitimate heir of Ferdowsi and Rumi. The question is, how can I reach the majority? How can I build consensus? You all know deep down that I am right, are you going to admit that? Or you going to keep my changes and edits? I would appreciate any comments and advices you may have. Thank you.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 13:45, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi guys, These are long posts and I ask calm from everyone. I am from Iran, and I can clearly state that Afghan Persian speakers and Tajiks are also Persians. Unfortunately there some arrogant people from Iran that have different ideas, but none of the users at least in this section (including Dr. Persi) have such an opinion. Also in Wikipedia, you have anonymous banned users who keep showing up and make insults, and it is 100% impossible to even verify where these users are from.
Few points. I noticed that my small edits were undone. Here is the situation, I am planning to change a lot of stuff here, so we remove political propaganada from facts and common sense. However, even my small edits were removed already. What am I supposed to do now? Change back again? I was courteous enough to include some comments regarding the edits I have made in the talk section so people will know the reasons for the changes. I will appreciate the same level of courteousy. If not it will only become a childish game of edits, undo, edits, undo, and so on. -- Yamaweiss ( talk) 17:24, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Dorood bar shomaa baraadar-e aziz, I have made significant changes after reading the talkpage by incorporating your comments in the article . Additionaly, much material was incorporated from :"GHERARDO GNOLI, "IRANIAN IDENTITY" in Encyclopaedia Iranica". I recommend people stay away from non-specialist sources. Since you are a new user, can you please tell me briefly what you believe is missing in this article? That is I would like the opinions of you Dr. Persi, Artacoana and you on what you think needs to be added. I read all of your comments and incorporated them in the introduction, while moving the part about Ancient Persians to the Ancient history and origin section. I also kept all the additions of Dr. Persi but moved a good amount of them to the origin section. I hope he can help in making that section more clear.
Please look at this version: [1] and let me know what you think is missing (with good and reputable academic sources). Note Persians of Central Asia are mentioned several times in the introduction.-- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 17:42, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
I personally prefer your new version much more than the old one, and I believe it truly presents the varieties and mixtures of persian people. I didn't had time to go through the whole article. This is what I will do from now on: I will not touch the main article. Each time I have a point, with reference, I will present it in this talk section, and we can talk about it then. I realize that all of you have been doing this for a long time as volunteers, I appreciate that so I will respect that. My only concern is that people should realize that roughly one third of Persians are non-Iranians, while one-third of Iranains who are Kurds, Jews, Turks and so on are not Persians, therefore non-Persian Iranians. Thank you.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 18:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
I got it now... Dr. Persi thinks I am the same person as the user Artacoana. No I am not. It's just a coincidence. :-) Thank you.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 00:52, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Also, I saw the comments about the edits that Dr. Persi made, it was in the other page. I don't agree with them, but at least he explained the changes. Sorry for a previous comment in which I asked to comment when editing. I didn't saw the other page.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 00:57, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Ok. Thank you.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 12:28, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
The Persian people are characterized by their use of the Persian language, which belongs to the Western branch of Iranian languages within the major Indo-Iranian group of the Indo-European languages.[29][30] Persian people are the predominant ethno-linguistic group of Iran (formerly known to the western world as Persia, thus the adjective "Persian") and a significant minority community in Central asia (including northwestern Afghanistan.[31] Tajikistan, Uzbikistan). The synonymous usage of Iranian and Persian has persisted over the centuries although some modern Western sources use Iranic/Iranian as a wider term that includes both Persian as well as the speakers of other related Iranian languages. The term "Persian people" can both refer to the people of Iran as a pan-ethnic group inhabiting the nation Iran (as Iran is also refered to as Persia), as well as the ethnic Persians who inhabit various other regions.
Hello everyone, I don't want to argue anymore, and I won't change the main article. But I do present my points here so you decide what you want to do with it. The problem in the above part is "a significant minority community in Central asia (including northwestern Afghanistan.[31] Tajikistan, Uzbikistan)". This sentence is confusing. Do you mean that a minority of Central Asia is Persian, or that a minority in each of those countries are Persians? In any case, both of them are wrong. Persians are not a minority in Central Asia. If you add the Tajiks of Tajikistan, Tajiks of Uzbekistan, Tajiks of Afghanistan, and Hazaras, and compare this to other people of Central Asia, which are the Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Turkmens, then the Persian people are probably half, if not more than half, of Central Asia (Central Asia has been Persian for millennia, the whole region used to be Persian lands until the arrival of Uzbeks, Kazaks, Mongols and Russians only a few centuries ago, so it won't be fair to present the native people who are still a majority as the region's minority - that's what the Russian government wanted people to believe, as to separate Central Asia from the Iranian and British zone of influence, and integrate it more easily in the Russian zone of political influence - and the Iranians, knowing that they can't defeat Soviets and claim back Central Asia, simply went along with that notion - now that the Russians have left, things are changing again and the people are looking to Iran as their kin and common root). If you mean a minority by each country, then they are a minority in Uzbekistan (35%), they are a majority in Afghanistan (Persians are not just in North Western Afghanistan, but the whole North as well as most of the population of Kabul), and they are the totality of the people of Tajikistan. Thank you.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 14:51, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
One more comment... We have to realize this: for thousands of years Persian civilization was a vast territory that included Iran, the whole of Central Asia, and neighbouring regions. Then, there were the Arab and Turkish invasions, followed by the Great Game of Britain and Russia, and all of these invasions have reduced the once great Persian culture into a much smaller entity. But as the influence of forign colonialism is now eroding, people are going back to their roots, and those roots are the Persian culture shared by all before all this political mess began. (The Russians controlled Central Asia, while the Pashtune tribes controlled the North of Afghanistan, and all these people tried to destroy the occupied people's Persian identity as to control them easier, and in this vacuum Iran was left as the only heir of all Persian culture (thus, for the first time, thanks to foreighn invasions, iran became persia and persia became iran) - but the Russians have left Central Asia, and most of the people in power in Afghanistan today are the Northern Persians, not the Pashtuns, so they will redefine Afghan identity along the traditional Persian one)-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 15:42, 30 May 2011 (UTC)-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 15:34, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I restored to my version:
So what now, we are going to say that Persians are people of North Western Afghanistan, therefore including Herat but excluding Balkh? And then are we going to keep the achievements of Bactrians as Persian or are we going to remove them from the list of Persian achievements? I really don't understand. My dilemma and question is so simple and obvious and yet nobody wants to answer it. I do understand that others are not obligated to respoond, but when you are adamant in supporting a position, like Dr. Persi, shouldn't you explain or present your case? How else we are going to build consensus? The question is very simple, if you are going to exclude the Bactrians as Persian people,are you going to keep the achievements of Bactrians as Persian achievements or not??? That's the only simple thing I want to know. I will stick with the definition of Khodabandeh, unless someone EXPLAINS to me how "Bactrians are not Persians but their achievements are Persian"!-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 05:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Interesting quote from the Bactria section of Wikipedia: "Regarding Tajiks, the Encyclopædia Britannica states: The Tajiks are the direct descendants of the Iranian peoples whose continuous presence in Central Asia and northern Afghanistan is attested from the middle of the 1st millennium bc. The ancestors of the Tajiks constituted the core of the ancient population of Khwārezm (Khorezm) and Bactria, which formed part of Transoxania (Sogdiana). They were included in the empires of Persia and Alexander the Great, and they intermingled with such later invaders as the Kushāns and Hepthalites in the 1st–6th centuries ad. Over the course of time, the eastern Iranian dialect that was used by the ancient Tajiks eventually gave way to Farsi, a western dialect spoken in Iran and Afghanistan.[14]" This shows that Central Asia and Afghanistan were farsi speaking Iranian people about three millennia ago. Long before the Uzbeks and Turks and Mongols appeared in the region. They are still the dominant people there. They are not a minority.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 05:35, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Dear Khodabandeh, I don't have any problem with your version/current version. I don't want to change your version to add that Tajiks are a majority of Central Asia. I just don't agree with the version proposed by Dr. Persis which erroneously says that Tajiks are a minority in Central Asia. As long as that is not said it's fine with me. I trust your greater experience and informed opinion, so you have my support and you decide how to deal with username Dr. Persis. I will wait a few monthes before directly changing the main article, so I gain some seniority here, as well as experience in using the system. Thank you for your accurate contributions.-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 15:11, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I am going through other pages of Wikipedia to see other "persian" related materials. I am shocked how if an author is from today's Iran, his place of birth is presented as Iran, and how if he is outside of Iran, it's written "Greater Iran" or "Persia". How would you feel if we put a persian poet born in Afghanistan as Afghan and those like Ferdowsi, born in Tus, as Greater Afghanistan. You make it look as if this whole process was nothing but an objective assessment based on facts and references, while in reality at every turn the editors have made subjective calls, and have used their own versions and references to support the most hypocrite and insulting version of the past. I was reading the part about persian literatture. It's amazing to read that one of the richest part of the persian literatture (as defined by Wikipedia itself) is the mystic sufi tradition. The bulk of sufi literatture, by people like Rumi and Rabia, was from "Afghanistan", more precisely the Bactrian regions (Balkh and surroundings). Now, that great sufi tradition, which is probably one of the greatest Afghan achievements of all time, one of the greatest gifts of Afghans to mankind, is labelled as "Persian", Rumi and Rabia are labelled as "Persian", while the people of Bactrian region are not included as Persian (I am talking about the version of Dr Persis)??? What kind of "references" or "facts" do you expect me to present so you will correct your hypocrisies? All the facts are in front of you, you have simply decided to ignore the facts, and millennia of history, to serve you narrow nationalistic agenda! Stop pretending that you are somehow an objective and neutral critic! You are nothing more than a bunch of amateurs twisting facts to fit your own agendas!!! -- Yamaweiss ( talk) 17:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yamaweiss ( talk • contribs) 16:59, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello, I sign this way because I can't figure out how to use the other signatures. I tried everything and I keep getting this one. I will appreciate any advice you may have on that part. As far as the references are concerned, you must realize that different references are saying different things regarding these issues. As noted by user Khodabandeh, the Iranian and Islamic encyclopedias have different definitions and interpretations of "Persian" than those found in Britannica. Who gets to decide which of those references are accurate? That's why I am trying to explain everything so people will realize that the Islamic's interpretation is better than the Britannica one. You have to uderstand that a lot of politics is involved here. Many contributeurs of Britannica are people from various places who present their own countries in better light, and tey do not even sign their names, as mentionned by Khodabandeh. Thus, if Britannica says that only North Western Afghanistan is Persian, then it's obvious that politics is involved there (the Eglish have always tried to diminish the achievements of Persia, and the Iranians want to take credit for all the achievements of Persia, so this fulfills both of their agendas!)! There is absolutely no difference between the North Western Afghans and other Afghans in the North or in Kabul. This is only a fabrication in order to divide the Afghan people and tarnish their legacy. In any case, as I mentionned, if you do include only the North Western Afghanistan as persian people, then why do you include the achievements of North and North Eastern Afghanistan as Persian achievements??? This is a matter of JUDGEMENT and not REFERENCES! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yamaweiss ( talk • contribs) 17:53, 31 May 2011 (UTC) -- Yamaweiss ( talk) 18:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
According to Encyclopedia Britannica, Rumi was born in Balkh (Afghanistan), while Ferdowsi was born in Tus (Iran). Both of these are FACTS backed by your BRITANNICA! Now, however, why is it that in Wikipedia, for Ferdowsi we have “Born: Tus”, while for Rumi we have “Region: Rum, Persia”??? This is why I am angry, because I have never seen such lack of consistency and open hypocrisy in my life!!! If you put place of birth for Ferdowsi, which is Iran, then you should also put place of birth for Rumi, which is Afghanistan. If you will put “region” for Rumi, rather than place of birth, then you should also put “region” for Ferdowsi, which was Tus, Kingdom of Samanids, a BACTRIAN kingdom!!! In Britannica, there IS a consistency, since they always put the place of birth, but in Wikipedia, they pick and choose, wither to put place of birth or “region” (Whatever that’s supposed to mean!!!)., whatever fancy their political agendas!!! And you want me to be polite??? Most of you in Wikipedia are Iranians, and you have turned it into a laughing stock, and what do you suggest I do? All I am asking is for CONSISTENCY!!!! If you put place of birth for ONE Persian, put place of birth for ALL Persians. If you put “region” for ONE Persian, then put region for ALL Persians! This has nothing to do with the Reference issues, it has to do with INTEGRITY, DIGNITY and TRUTHFULNESS, all “Persian” values that many of you seem to have FORGOTTEN! You like BRITANNICA, fine, stick to it ALL THE WAY!!! Don’t give up BRITANNICA whenever it stops fulfilling your patriotic agenda! -- Yamaweiss ( talk) 18:41, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I just bought a subscription to Britannica. I will go through all the sources there, and present the results to all of you, hopefully you will not tell me then that Britannica is not a reliable source!!!-- Yamaweiss ( talk) 18:48, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Please read some books. If you didnt know, afghans and persian have fought many time. Can you believe that 2 people of the same kind would fight eachother? I think afghans should just be proud of themselves and stop leaching and trying to cling on to us. 2 different people, please understand.... Sharing a language does not mean the same ethnicity and genetics. SOUTH AMERICANS ALL SPEAK SPANISH. DOes that mean they are all spaniards? NO. Majority are natives. SO get your facts together
I can't do this anymore. I am going to sign out. Sorry if I have offended any of you. I just hope that your desire for truth will be greater than your patriotic feelings. -- Yamaweiss ( talk) 20:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
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Tajiks from Afghanistan are Persianized Pashtuns. Tajiks from Tajikistan are soghdians and pamiris not Persians. Persians are only in Iran. Afghanistan is 80% Pashtun ethnically, some Pashtun changed their language during occupation of afghanistan and start speaking Dari just like Hazara that are mongolians and speak Dari. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.31.211.97 ( talk) 22:31, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
An ethnicity is defined by factors of common heritage, history, culture and language not just language alone. The Persians of Iran and the Tajiks of Afghanistan/Tajikistan (Tajikistan to lesser extent) may share that but the Hazara people do not share anything bar a language.
The Hazaras are a distinct ethnic group by themselves and cannot be denied their right as one, this is fact and are treated as a distinct ethnic group in all academia etc, and cannot be deemed ethnic Persians. Please cite any credible source specifically categorizing them as ethnic Persians before including them here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aryan Pars ( talk • contribs) 01:39, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
t
Zoroaster was not a Persian, because there were simply no Persians back then, only Iranians. Mithridates is a Parthian, Mani might have been a babylonian, Khwarizmi was a Khwarizmian with a distinct language from Persian (so was Biruni) and Rhazes was most probably a Central Iranian (a typical Medean). Also, Nizami is ethnically Azeri, Babak was from an Azeri mother and a Hamadani (Medean) father, Alhazen might have been an Arab. There are so many factual fallacies in this section and they are all in conflict with statements already present in Wikipedia itself. Avicenna was tajik, Mossadegh was azerbaijani.
Seriously, why do we need so many pictures of Persians in the first place, is that necessary? حضرت محمود ( talk) 16:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Persian refers to specifically the language/cultural and ethnic group that can be associated (predominately) with the original Persians whom settled and ruled the Iranian plateau. Persians make up about 40-50% of the modern population, and are diminishing by each generation. Obviously, Turkmen, Iranian 'Arabs', Assyrians, Balochis (with clearly unique genetic histories), can't be considered Persians - though they are all (geographically) 'Iranians'. I understand the pan-nationalistic view that is been upheld by some, but that length of simplification is absurd - as is the stance that this article takes. However, it is worth noting that year after year, and notably since the 1979 revolution, Iran is becoming less of a 'Persian' nation, and more a nation of 'Iranians', with an identity that is evolving culturally, genetically, and politically. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.196.88.228 ( talk) 02:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Its strange that Freddie Mercury hasn't been included in the list of Persians on the front page. Freddie was a Parsi, which means that he was descendant of Persians who fled to India from Iran after the Arab conquest to retain their religion (Zoroastrianism). Besides his obvious cultural and ethnical links with Persians, Freddie was proud of his Persian ancestry too. I quote:
His background made his sense of identity complex. Being a Parsee meant he identified more with his Persian ancestry than India, where his parents were brought up and he was educated. Hurtfully, there were people who said he was burying his Asian roots. Roger Cooke, his brother in law, said: "To an English mind, Asian means Indian. It doesn't in Freddie's particular case, he was Persian by ancestry. He was accused of denying his Indian heritage. I don't think he ever did, but if he did, it would have been because he was Persian." His mother added: "Freddie was a Parsee and he was proud of that, but he wasn't particularly religious." [2]
Could someone adjust the list?
Thanks in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.173.202.165 ( talk) 05:24, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Please upgrade this paragraph so it says "Persian carpets" instead of Persian rugs. The proper term is carpet.
Persian cultural contributions include artistic (Persian rugs, Persian artworks and crafts, miniature paintings, calligraphy), linguistic (Persian literature and poetry), Societal (Architectural influences, customs & clothing, Gardening, music, social norms and standards), culinary, political and ceremonial (Nowruz festivity, Chaharshanbe Suri festival) contributions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.238.112.226 ( talk) 00:32, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Section Persian Rugs should be renamed Persian Carpets
Also, the section is very poorly written. The carpet weaving centers of Nain and Qom are not even mentioned. Nain carpets are among the most highly desired carpets in the world today and the Nain 4La carpets rank as the finest, are exhorbantly expensive, and quite rare.
The carpet section should make a clear distinction between city-woven carpets and nomad carpets. None of the famous nomad carpet producing tribes are mentioned, which should include the Qasqai, Lori, Bakhtiari, Asfar, Kurdi, Turkamen, Afghan, and the Persian Gabbeh (mostly produced by the Qasqai). Persian carpets are actually knotted, not woven. The woven carpets are classified as kilim. More photographs are required. There should also be mentioned the age classification of carpets: antique, semi-antique, and new as these directly affect the value of a carpet.
Upon request, I would be willing to write a complete section with references and photographs. I may be contacted at martimasters@gmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.238.112.226 ( talk) 00:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Done. You should just go ahead and rewrite it if you want to improve it. Irānshahr ( talk) 02:32, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
He is the eight president of Israel, and is a Persian Jew, probably one of the prominent Persian Jews, despite that Iran and Israel may be enemy states. PacificWarrior101 ( talk) 04:32, 7 September 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
This article is not clearly about a people but peoples. I suggest this to move to "Persian peoples". "peoples" who all called Persian irrespective of their dialectical and language differences.- Raayen ( talk) 18:22, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
Someone misspelled Parthian Empire, and that made the wikilink show up RED. Let's use some common sense: the primary cause of a RED wikilink is a misspelled word. Please listen. 98.81.4.240 ( talk) 00:14, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
There is a typo in the section "Traditions" - see the bolded word below, it should be stri'pp'ed with 2 p's not striped with a single 'p'.
Traditions Further information: Nowruz and Chaharshanbe Suri One of the most well known cultural traditions dating back to the Achaemenid era is the tradition of Nowruz or the celebration of the new year by the Achaemenids.[89] Nowruz has Zoroastrian roots, but has since the time of Islam been mostly striped of its Zoroastrian references.
69.158.30.58 ( talk) 02:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Not moved for lack of consensus. There is no overriding policy compelling the article to have one title or the other, and no consensus in favor of the proposed move. bd2412 T 19:42, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Persian people → Persians – The name "Persian" and "Persians" is common in English media as an ethnicity and people of certain ethnic group. I suggest to remove "people" from the article name. Persian as an ethnicity is common, there is no need to clarify it with "people". The plural form "Persians" is much better than "Persian people". Like other articles in En Wiki for ethnic groups. Also the "Persians" is more common than "Persian people". For example compare Google search (books) for them: Persians and Persian people. Also in other European language, the plural form is common. For example, in French language: Persans. I suggest to move this article. When "Persians" is widely used in many sources (from history and scholary sources to news content), why not to use it in English Wikipedia? It's a better name for this article. Like many articles that use "Xs" instead of "X people". Zyma ( talk) 19:31, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Comment: Per Wikipedia policies and rules, we should use the most common name for the articles. "Persians" is more common than "Persian people". Just search books, articles, papers, scholary sources, academic references, web contents, and etc. You will see most of them use "Persians" instead of "Persian people". "Persians" directly refer to an ethnicity not anything else. For example, do internet users search "Greeks vs. Persians" or "Greeks vs. Persian people"? Clearly, they search "Persians". It's not confusing. "Persians" has a clear meaning, specially in the modern and new sources. Nobody use the name "Persians" for the "Persian cats"!. Compare the title of En Wiki article with other Wikis. "Persians" means Persian ethnicity or Persian-speaking person. Supporters of this move request wrote reasonable comments and discussed the benefits of this rename, so this move process is reasonable and helpful for this article and future searches. -- Zyma ( talk) 18:42, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Problem: the proposed title Persians is already taken by a dab page, so this RM is malformed and should be cancelled. Dicklyon ( talk) 03:37, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
The article uses both of them. I suggest we instead use "Persian" as the term mainly because:
1. "Iranian" might be confusing and make readers believe that we are solely speaking of Iranian people/people from modern day Iran, which is obviously not the case.
2.In the history section a lot of the content involves other Persian peoples, such as forexample East-Persian-Tajiks.
--
90.149.188.205 (
talk)
22:37, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
The sources indicated in the infobox (starting from Tajikistan) are messed up. Somebody should correct them. Nataev talk 11:43, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
After reading the discussion above, I want to add that this article and the whole matter needs an extreme overhaul. Both denotations 'Persian People and Iranians on Wikipedia are far to confusing and misleading.
Even though Iranian is a nationality and Persian an ethnicity, I think it might be helpful to create a separate article for the people of Iran, naming it Iranians, while maintaining this article only for the peoples of ethnic Persian descent.
By that way, it's far easier for people to know what they're searching for; either the ethnicity (Persians), or people from the country Iran/who have Iranian nationality (whether Armenians, Persians, Georgians, Azeri's, Kurds etc)
I think the Iranian diaspora article can help greatly with forming that.
LouisAragon ( talk) 22:27, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved; premature attempt. Previous RM was at /Archive_7#Requested_move_03_January_2014. No such user ( talk) 12:51, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Persian people →
Persians – Common and standard form. --Relisted.
Armbrust
The Homunculus 10:47, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Jaqeli (
talk)
13:42, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.This has already been discussed before, look up above. -- Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust ( talk) 20:36, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Tajiks in Uzbekistan for a lot longer than it says there are about 6-11 million on non formal assessment — Preceding unsigned comment added by Franrasyan ( talk • contribs) 13:57, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
I came across this article months ago and thought it was a nice read. Now I have come back to see it has been completely changed. Everything regarding Tajiks has been completely wiped by a user named "LouisAragon" (who thankfully is banned). The reason he gives for his edits is that Tajiks are diaspora(which is wrong) and should have info on a separate page(which they do, but is no reason to completely wipe them from this page). Yet he leaves all the other diaspora populations including the US, Germany and UAE on this page. I feel his edits are not to make this article more accurate or less confusing but are just from a bigoted position. To add insult to injury he leaves some very prominent Tajiks on the famous people part - including Al-Khwarizmi, Biruni, Avicenna and Rumi, all while stating Tajiks have no place on this page.
I have no idea how to edit the article to the old version, that reflected "Persian people" a lot better, in fact I don't even have an account. I'm just hoping that someone who does know how to do it or an admin sees this and fixes this skewed article up.
Kind Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.186.71 ( talk) 06:08, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
the iranians and afghans are two different people. every one knows that. iranians and afghans are not one single people. the article is misleding and wrongful. pls fix the article. this article is completely unencyclopaedic.-- Farscheed ( talk) 07:17, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
afghanis are not persians, austrians speak german but are not germans and they do not consider themselves as germans, they are neither considered germans by the people of germany, the people of switzerland speak french but they are only swiss and it is wrong to call the swiss peoiple as french people. the people of belgium speak dutch, but they are not dutch or netherlanders, the people of brazil speak portuguese but they are not portuguese people. they are brazilians speaking portuguese. the people of ghana speak english but they are not english. and finally the afghans speak a dialect of persian. but they are not persians racially or ethnically or historically. afghans are ethnically and racially a mixed nation. the tajiks, are related to people of central asia, to the people of uzbekistan, turkmenistan and tajikistan. the tajiks of afghanistan look exactly the same as tajik and uzbeks because they are the same. the hazaras are not related to the iranian or persian race, they are of mongol origin, their hazaragi language which is a dialect of dari language, is heavily mixed with the momgolian languiage, their look and appearence attest to the fact that they are only assimilated mongols. even the word hazara is a millitary unit which describe that they were a part of the mongol chengiz khan army who destroyed civilization of iran including nishabur and tus and many other cities of khorasan. (khorasan is in iran and is iranian, not afghani or afghanistan).
tajiks are iranized or persianized central asians, like uzbeks are turkified central asian people. tajik is NOT a synonym of persian or iranian, tajik only refered to people of central asia which became iranized, even the tajiks of china which speak and iranic language which is not persian language, they the tajiks of china are called tajiks by the chinese government, this is because they speak an iranic language, whether be persian or what else. the term tajik were invented by the turkic speaking central asian to differentiate themselves from the iranic speaking central asians, even when the northwestern iran was turkified the turkic speaking iranians called the iranian speaking iranians tats, which means non.turk. tajiks was at the beginning only meaning non turk and later was used to call the iranic speaking central asians. the words tats and tajiks are etymolically related but two totally different things, like the words dutch and deutsch is etymologically related but dutch mean netherlander and deutsch mean german, tats are iranians speaking iranians living in turkic areas of iran, tajiks are iranic speaking central asians neighbur with turks of central asia.
so the conclusion is that tajik do not mean iranian, even if it was meaning iranians (which it is not) it would be a linguistic term, like germanic, which do not mean german, and slavic which do not mean slovakian.
the aryans where living in southern russia over 3000 years ago, and 3000 years ago they migrated due to the cold weather, one part of the aryan people migrated to north india, today the people of north india, and pakistan and bangladesh which where later splitted from the northern india, today these countries, bangladesh, pakistan and india are the ancient aryans who migrated to the ganges palin. and one part of the aryan race migrated to iran, they became divided to three tribes, one persian tribe, who migrated to southern iran, one was called median who migrated to central iran, and one who called parthians and migrated to a region in northeastern iran which they later called parthia, parthia was neighbur of central asia, turkmenistan to the north, exactly the todays turkmen.iranian border to the north, parthia was in east limited to hariva, which is todays afghanistans herat province. so the iranian race, people, nation, ethnicity was limited to todays border of iran, and afghanis are not iranian by ethnicity.
khorasan was a term which was invented by the sassanid iranians, in presassanid times it was called parthia, which was called because of the parthians which where iranians and aryans, but in sassanid times they called it khorasan, meaning the place of sunrise, meaning east in old persians, because khorasan was located in eastern iran, at the same time, they called the western part of iran khorbaran, meaning west, they called todays iraq which was then part of iran and western iran as khorbaran. later in islamic times, khorasan was used to refer to parts of turkmenistan and afghanistan, but the real and original khorasan was still iran.
the most important thing is that let alone the fact that afghanis are not iranian or persian, they are even not considered persian by the iranian people. if you tell an iranian that an afghan is persian, he will be surprized and he or she will not like that and will not accept that. so the afghanis (those who call themselves persians) they are not persian, they are only wannabe persians, they shoukd be proud of their afghan and tajik nation and ethnicity, because as long as they are acting like wannabe persians, the iranians and afghans wil not have a good friendship relation, why iranians do not think the same of iraqis or azarbaijanis, or pakistanis, as they are thinking of afghans, because these countries are not wannabe persians despite the fact that iraq was called dele iranshahr, or heart of iran in sassanid times, despite that the most famous persian poet is an azarbaijani called nizami ganjavi, he has statue in many countries, and pakistanis having contributed to persian literature and civilizaiton
every language is beautiful on earth, but some languages are melodic and musical, and persian is one of the most melodic languages, and when some europeans or westerners say that persian is a beautiful language they only mean the language of iran, and not afghanistan, because it is the the farsi language which is meldodic and musical, the afghanis speak and pronounce the dari accent totoally different, and you can not hear the farsi or iranian accent from them when they talk.
the most correct persian dialect is the tehrani persian, and the most original and real persian dialect is luri and bandari, lari, and dezfuli dialects, because these dialects are descended from middle persian, or pahlavi as it was called. and the orginal persian language before the current language was pahlavi, the speakers of the mentioned languages and cities are still in the same area and region where pahlavi or middle persian was spoken, bccause it was spoken in southern iran especially fars and khuzestan province.
so dari is not the original persian language as someone claim, dari is mixed heavily with turkmen and uzbek and pashtun and mongol and hindi words, so you can not say that the farsi language is mixed and unreal, but dari is real and unmixed.
the dari word which is mentioned by some authors has not anything to do with afghanistan, because it was in 1960 the afghan state changed the name of the language from tajiki to dari, so dari is originally an iranian word, not afghan, even hafez have talked about dari and he did not mean anything afghan, and even the farsi dialect of zartoshtians in kerman and yazd todays is called dari by themselves. even many kermanis and yazdid call their sweet persian dialect and accent dari, and they are not afghans. they are iranians.
it is not only the afghan that have adapted the culture of iran, and it is not the only afghans that have history shared with iran, the whole europe share the history of roman empire, even egypt and libya and libanon and iraq and azarbaijan and armenia and georgia share history with iran, afghanistan was never part of iran, it was part of iranian empires, the iranian empire included many nations and countries.
the article about persian people, should be changed to iranian people, and personalities of todays iran, should be mentioned in the artike and have pitcures, not only ancient persons, and the article should be name iranian people, also called persians. because every nation and country have article on wikipedia, but the iranian people do not have. and one other article should be created for the afghans mentioning afghan personalities and subjects related to todays afghanistan.
because afghans and iranians, despite speaking closely related languages, are two different nations and ethnic groups, and are not the same people as the article claims.
-- Iranmehr27 ( talk) 04:49, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
as i argued in the text and i prooved that afghans are not persians by the ethnic definitoion, because they are iranized and persianized central asians, like uzbeks who are turkified central asians, they where formerly called sarts because they changed their name to uzbek and tajik.
the people of iran was NOT At All and never called tajiks. the word used for iranians was ajam or ajami, because when the arabs were conquering iran, they called them ajams, meaning non arab at the beginning and later it was restricted specifically to iranians. so the iranians was only called ajams. they where never called tajiks. only the central asians who got iranized were called tajiks by their turkic neighboors.
and yes the most restrictive defintion of the word persian is that persian is a person from iran, espeicially in united states, most iranians self identify as persians, and the iranians in the US are known as persian by most americans, and persia is the former name of iran, and persian is the former adjective of iran, and since the second shah of the last iranian monarchy, in 1960 declared that both persia and iran can be used as synonyms, so the word persian is only the synonym of iranian, and iranians, whithou regard of ethnicity are persians. because persian is only a synonym adjective of iranian. you can not say googoosh and dariush, iranian most famous female and male singers who are ethnically azarbaijani, and shapour bakhtiar, a Lor and nima youshij, founder of modern persoan poetry, you can not say these people are not persians. they are as persian as other originally persian speaking personalities.
so according to the most correct, accepted and famous definition the term persian excludes afghans. because the word persian is a synonym of iranian. it is only some afghans who like to be called persians. no other person consider them as persians. -- Iranmehr27 ( talk) 06:02, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
my former text was in response of the unsigned comment> beginning with Kind Regards
-- Iranmehr27 ( talk) 06:03, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
every nation and people on earth have article on wikipedia, even stateless people like gypsies and assyrians have, but iranians have not their own article on wikipdeia. i request some administrator of wikipedia to change the name of this article to iranian people. and the article be limited to iranian and not afghans. because the germans and austrians, or swiss and the french, and portuguese and brazilians, and even americans and english people are not mixed in their articles of wikipedia. this article is totally misleading.
i know that many afghans would like to be considered persians, but by most correct and accepted definition they are not regarded as persians. even in this article they are not fully acknoledged as persians. If Really afghans are persians, then please add some pictures of afghans, like the persident hameed karsay, or add some pictures of afghans singers, politicans, directors, and actors side by side with the iranians personalities in the image section on the top of the article. please do that, this article should either be for iranian people and if if you mix iranians and afghans here, then please add pictures of afghans also, one of the persons who should have picture on this article is hameed kasay, because he is the most famous afghan person.-- Iranmehr27 ( talk) 06:14, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
No Lysozym i am not almost completely wrong, actually you know that my knowledge is almost entirely true and correct thats why you did not dare to say it is completely wrong, you say it is Almost completely wrong, but believe me whatever what i said is based on the general historical sources, so you are wrong, not me. i doubt you yourself understand the meaning of the culture, ethnicity, nationality and citizanship, but you can be sure that afghanis (your nationality) is neither persian or iranian in the contexts of citizenship, ethnicity, nationality. only the culture of afghans is iranian, but you can not say afghans are iranian or persian because they have some elements of iranian culture, many nations in west asia have iranian or persian cultural elements but are not iranians,example the azaris or iraqis. by the way culture have many definitions, i once read that culture have as much as 300 definitions. no you are not considered persian by any book, nation, organization or history and last but the best one by iranian people. the afghan tajiks are ethnic relatives of other tajiks and uzbeks of central asia, and hazaras are ethnic relatives of mongols. and neither tajiks or hazaras have the iranian or persian appearence. none of them look iranian or persian, the fact is that, at least in my opinion pakistanis and indians, despite being little more colored than iranians, they, indians and pakistanis look iranian and persian.
no it is you that are ignorant to historical facts, even if one or some author or writer said that iranians are tajiks this does not make iranians tajiks
Friedrich Arnold Brockhaus perhaps he called some people tajiks, but that does not mean he meant the tajiks of central asia or the tajiks of tajikistan or afghanistan.
in the army of safavid empire there where two grouups who made the army of the state, one groups were turkic speakings, they became knows as torks, and one groups were speaking iranic languages, this groups of army consisting of iranic speaking groups of iran, they became known as tajiks, again i say, tajiks here only is a linguistic term to differentiate turkic speaking and iranic speaking groups. it is a difference between germanic and german, and iranian and iranic. so the author Friedrich Arnold Brockhaus only called a group of the iranian safavid army as tajiks, this was not a term which was widely used, it was only used to differentiate turkic and iranic speakers in his book. So the Friedrich Arnold Brockhaus, meant only iranic speakings peoples by the terms tajik, and he meant iranic speaking groups like lors, because they did not speak turkic, Friedrich Arnold Brockhaus did not mean anything afghan or tajikistani.
but> here you are not only claiming and wanting to be a persian, your claims are bigger, you even claim and want the iranian nation to call themselves tajiks. so you want afghans to call themselves persians, and you want iranians to call themselves tajiks, all this shows a inferiority complex of the people who have such a funny, wrong and meaningless claims.
i dont care if afghans call themselves aryans or not, i am not trying to convince or force you to dont call yourself aryan, and even if i convince you that afghans are not aryans, i can not stop other afghans to say or think they are aryans.
so you can keep saying or considering yourself aryan, but according to the history, afghans are not aryans, aryans are the people of ancient north india and iran, and two countries splitted from north india, pakistan and bangladesh, so the fact is that, at least in my opinion who have read many books, the fact is that aryans are the people of india, pakistan, bangladesh and iran. the people of these 3 first countries, despite being little darker, are still looking like iranian people, this mean they may have been one people before splitiing and dividig.
at least in my opinion, afghans are not aryans, and what is that so important about aryans, in my opinion the pakistanis are aryans, but they dont care at all about aryan, they are proud of their nation and culture and dont discuss so much about aryan, and even indians and iranians, only the nationalists talk about aryan, the general indian or iranian nations are not so busy about the aryan race despite being the true aryans.
the only people who are not aryans and like to be wannabe aryans are afghans. it is better for afghans to be proud of their current culture, than a thing that existed 3000 years ago. in farsi we say, dashtam dashtam hesab nist, daram daram hesab ast, meaning it is not important what you had, it is important what you have now.
i am residing in a country that a famous magazine for 10 years ago, the magazine wrote that iran is an arab nation, this is totally wrong, everyone knows that, so after 10 years the magazine said iran is an arab nation, iran is still not arab and did not became an arab nation,iran is stlll a persian nation and not arab, what i mean by mentioning this is that you can not change reality and history, in persian language we iranians say, ba kesafate sag darya kasif nemishe, meaning with the dirt of a dog, the sea does not get dirty. meaning you can not change reality.
so you can never change the reality that afghans are not persians , even if you convince the magazine new york times to write that afghans are persians you can not change reality and history. hehehe because afghans and tajiks are not persians, they are persianized (linguistic term) central asians.
be proud of your culture, not claim being another nationality or ethnicity, and do not claim and say iranians are tajiks or were known as tajiks for 100 years ago, this is not a relevant or actual issue. all of these show your inferiority complex
-- Iranmehr27 ( talk) 01:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I request some administrators of wikipedia to change the name of this article to iranian people and limit the article to iranian people. Because iranians and afghans can not be mixed here. this is totally wrong. An administrator did that but was later reverted by some afghan wannabe iranians. even afghans are not fully acknowledged as persians in this article, because although in terms of population statistics, it is mentioned at the top of the article how many percent are afghans, but they dont have any pictures of afghan people. because no afghan dare do that and afghan know that if he add pictures of afghans by side of iranian people, it will make people laugh. so please i request an admin of wikipedia to change the name of the article to iranian people and delete every thing about afghanistan, because every nation in the world have wikipedia article but iranians dont have, like the articles of french, italian, norwegian or swedish peoples.
and create an article for afghans of their own.
Lysozym, i have a master degree in persian literature, so dont call me uneducated, it is you that are uneducated, like your...fellow....yes this is encyclopaedia not your blog to say that iranians and afghans are brothers.haha.......i feel very proud of my iranian nation and dont say we iranians are brothers to any nation, but you have inferiority comoplex because you create videos on youtube and write articles for iranians in wikipedia and say afghans are the brothers of iranians and the same nation. is not this an iferiority complex that you have, you are a troll who feel inferior.stop sayng that iranians and afghanis are the same, you will never be accepted as persian and never look like persian and never be a part of iranian nation and country. you are so ignorant and uneductaed. some thing you really are is this: Wannabe Persian with inferiority complex.