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I'm looking forward to expand this article complying with the WP:HISTRS and for now, I'm going to tag the shorcomings. I welcome other users intersted participating in the process. Pahlevun ( talk) 18:28, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
@ Pahlevun: I specifically agree with you declaring the second section as original research. It seriously needs a rewrite. I suggest we mention the views of Majd on the population (before and after the famine) and then include the critics. -- Kazemita1 ( talk) 08:23, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
The PBS link's content is:
1918-1919: Famine devastates the Persian (Iranian) people.
As much as a quarter of the population living in the north of Iran dies in a famine. The devastating effect of a world war and a period of severe drought and widespread crop failure are the primary contributing factors to the famine.
Note that:
This has caused some Iranian scholars to call the famine a genocideand
To the level that some Iranian sources call it a British genocide against Persian people.
Moreover, it is a jounalism source and according to WP:RSE#History and WP:HISTRS, not a proper references. I highly recommend removing it, as well as Mashregh News and Khamenei.ir. Pahlevun ( talk) 10:04, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 13:22, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, we are not allowed to do original research as I am sure you agree. What is left to do is to look for the most reliable source out there on this matter. I will go ahead and ask the WP:RSN to see if they have a say on Pollack's book regarding the stats used in this article.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 19:21, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
The population of Persia in 1911 was estimated to be 7.6 million.[13] This would mean that the population was multiplied by more than 2.5 between 1911 and 1914. Other sources do not back up this rapid rise in the population of Persia. Pahlevun ( talk) 17:20, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
We have no proof that Majd has paid to publish the book. American Philosophical Association website describes UPA as a publisher that "has delivered high-quality research and textbooks into the hands of students and faculty in a timely manner since its founding in 1975." [6] Moreover, removing a source that initiated an academic debate would make the counter-arguments mentioned in the article meaningless. Pahlevun ( talk) 16:11, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Pahlevun and Kazemita1: The infobox photo was removed by Domdeparis, claiming that it did not have a RS supporting it. However, there are some sources ( [7], [8] and [9]) for this photo. Your feedback please! -- Mhhossein talk 15:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Since there are no photos in either the 2003 edition nor in the 2nd edition (2013) of the book, the photo was NOT published by Majd. Like Kazemita1, Professor Abrahamian had also indulged in speculation when he claimed that Majd had accused the British of destroying documents. The accusation was posted on Ayatollah Khamenei's website but the good professor simply assumed that it originated from Majd. Nowhere in Majd's book is there a claim that the Brits had destroyed documents--only delayed declassification. Abrahamian could have spared himself a great deal of chagrin if he had simply read the book before pontificating. Moretonian ( talk) 03:23, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Trying to remove the NPOV tag in the article, for the first step I suggest replacing the current lead with this:
The Great Persian famine of 1917â1919 was a period of widespread mass starvation and disease in Persia (Iran) under rule of Qajar dynasty during World War I. So far, few historians have worked on the famine that took place in the occupied territory of the country that declared neutrality, making it an understudied subject.
According to the estimates acknowledged by the mainstream view, about 2 million people died between 1917 and 1919 because of hunger and from diseases, which included cholera, plague and typhus, as well as influenza infected by 1918 flu pandemic. A variety of factors are commented to have caused and contributed to the famine, including successive seasonal droughts, requisitioning and confiscation of foodstuffs by occupying armies, speculation, hoarding, war profiteering, and bad harvests.
I tried to summarize it neutrally per WP:LEAD, and I welcome any comment/proposed edit on the text above for discussion. For the next step, I think we should try to adjust the weight given to the views (and in particular, write Majd's view in pithy). Pahlevun ( talk) 14:26, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
In the table below, all of the sources that discuss death toll are listed. In order to quickly assess the quality of each source, information about the "piece of work itself", "creator of the work" and "publisher of the work" are mentioned per Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Sources sorted by date of publication:
Source | Publisher of Source | Author's main expertise | Author's academic affiliation | Estimated number? | Supports Majd's view? |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Majd 2003 (book) | University Press of America | History of Iran | None | 8â10 million | N/A |
Pollack 2004 (book) | Random House | Middle East Intelligence | None | 2 million | No, numbers dramatically differ |
Messkoub 2006 (article) | Routledge | History of Iran | International Institute of Social Studies | â | No, rejects it |
Mafinezam & Mehrabi 2008 (book) | Greenwood Publishing | Iran Affairs | None | â [a] | No, rejects it |
Abrahamian ( 2008, 2013) (book) | Cambridge University Press | History of Iran | City University of New York | 2 million | No, rejects it |
The New Press | |||||
Ă GrĂĄda 2009 (book) | Princeton University Press | Famine | University College Dublin | â [b] | No (implicitly), rejects it |
Milani 2011 (book) | Palgrave Macmillan | History of Iran | Stanford University | â | No, rejects it |
Ebrahimnejad 2013 (book) | Springer | History of Iran | University of Southampton | 'Several millions' | No, rejects it |
Katouzian 2013 (book) | Oneworld Publications | History of Iran | University of Oxford | 2 million | No, numbers dramatically differ |
Ward 2014 (book) | Georgetown University Press | Middle East Intelligence | None | 2 million | No, numbers dramatically differ |
Rubin 2015 (book) | Routledge | Middle East Affairs | Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya | 2 million | No, numbers dramatically differ |
Winegard 2016 (book) | University of Toronto Press | Military History | Colorado Mesa University | 8â10 million | Yes (implicitly), used as a source |
Pordeli 2017 (article) | Canadian Center of Science and Education | History of Iran | Zabol University | 8â10 million | Yes, used as a source |
â Pahlevun ( talk) 18:19, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Other scholars have seen those American documents as well. Have you any sources confirm that? Benyamin-ln ( talk) 15:51, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Domdeparis and Pahlevun, the new single-purpose account Moretonian is aggressively edit warring a new version of this article that replaces all of the research above with an exclusive reliance on Majd's extreme minority view. Moretonian has offered no edit summaries or participation here. In addition, I have since done some digging and confirmed Domdeparis's previous concerns that Majd's work is essentially self-published; Majd's publisher (formerly the now-defunct University Press of America, which used the same model, guaranteeing publication/marketing within five months of submission, and now Hamilton Books, both nominally imprints of Rowman & Littlefield) states that it uses "an innovative model that combines the best features of self-publishing (quick decision making, a higher level of author control over the content, swift publication process) with the benefit of publishing with an established publishing house that will typeset, print, and market your book." Note that there is no mention of fact-checking! Bottom line: Even though it has not been peer reviewed and is essentially self-published, Wikipedia can mention Majd's error-filled, exaggerated account, but we should make clear that it has been widely panned by academic historians. Moretonian's POV-pushing edits are unacceptable. TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 20:39, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
TheTimesAreAChanging and Domdeparis have again claimed that Majd's books are self-published, and have not been peer reviewed or fact-checked, an allegation apparently first made in 2017. And they have used the allegation to block any revision of the Wikipedia pages on the 1869-1873, 1917-1919, and 1942-1944 famines that had cited Majd's works. The University Press of America (UPA) was an imprint of Rowman and Littlefield Publishing group, the sixth largest US publisher founded in 1949. According to the American Philosophical Association, "UPA has delivered high-quality research and textbooks into the hands of students and faculty in a timely manner since its founding in 1975." I also noted that in the UPA webpage cited by TheTimesAreAChanging, the acquisitions department had solicited scholars interested in reviewing submitted manuscripts to UPA to send in their credentials. UPA was renamed Hamilton Books in 2017. Since Majd's UPA books have all been reviewed in refereed scholarly journals, they have been scrutinized before and after publication. As to the absence fact-checking, the books largely consist of verbatum reproduction of US State Department records, available to all. Anyone can fact-check the material and the Office of the Historian at the State Department has increasingly put the documents online, especially those pertaining to the World War II famine. The 1917-1919 famine book was published nearly twenty years ago. Since Domedeparis and TheTimesAreAChanging are so strongly opposed to or perhaps suspect its contents, they should have fact-checked the book during all these years and they still can and should. Finally, an appeal to the two respected editors. Please stop blocking revisions to the 1869-1873 Wikipedia famine page. It is the most tragic of the three famines. Hamilton Books, The book follows in the footsteps of Mike Davis's 2002 book, "Mid-Victorian Holocausts: El Nino Famines and the Makings of the Third World. London and New York: Verso," and it is the only monograph on the subject in the English language. The current Wikipedia sections on contemporary statements and the death toll need serious rewriting. My apologies for the lengthy post. Moretonian ( talk) 15:47, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
"The University Press of America (UPA) was an imprint of Rowman and Littlefield Publishing group, the sixth largest US publisher founded in 1949. ... UPA was renamed Hamilton Books in 2017."The Hamilton Books website makes clear that it is an imprint (see vanity press) for authors that cannot get published elsewhere or deliberately seek to evade fact-checking and editorial oversight: "Hamilton Books ... (uses) an innovative model that combines the best features of self-publishing (quick decision making, a higher level of author control over the content, swift publication process) with the benefit of publishing with an established publishing house that will typeset, print, and market your book." [emphasis added
"Since Majd's UPA books have all been reviewed in refereed scholarly journals, they have been scrutinized before and after publication."Indeed, and scholarly reviews of Majd's work have not been favorable, as seen above. To give just one example, Willem Floor "appropriately relegates Mohammad Gholi Majd's overblown, conspiracy-ïŹlled book on the epidemic and the number of 8-10 million (or almost the country's entire population) given by him, to a footnote."
"As to the absence fact-checking, the books largely consist of verbatum reproduction of US State Department records, available to all. Anyone can fact-check the material and the Office of the Historian at the State Department has increasingly put the documents online, especially those pertaining to the World War II famine."Wikipedia editors are not historians nor do we have the expertise to engage in historical analysis by scrutinizing primary source documents. (See WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. If you are an historian, then you will need to get published by a reputable outlet before Wikipedia can cite your conclusions.)
"[Majd's book] is the only monograph on the [1869-1873 famine] in the English language."Unfortunately, Majd's A Victorian Holocaust: Iran in the Great Famine of 1869â1873 is not a reliable source (due to being published under the Hamilton Books label, which exclusively handled printing/marketing at Majd's expense; Hamilton Books has no reputation for fact-checking or accuracy), so it does little to substantiate anything related to this alleged event, let alone that it
"took 10â12 million lives,"or considerably more than Iran's entire population at the time as measured in every source other than Majd. You may argue that English-language scholars have neglected this alleged
"Holocaust"due to racism, Eurocentrism, Iranophobia, etc., but in the absence of any reliable sources for such claims there really is not much that Wikipedia can do. We are not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 21:55, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
TheTimesAreAChanging. As stated by Moretonian and previously by Pahlevun, there is no proof that Majd paid to have his books published. Yet you keep on pushing the same allegation for lack of anything better.
As you point out, Willem Floor was highly critical of Majd, going as far as sarcasm when he wrote: "So good were the British in concealing that there even had been a famine that the document tabled by the official Persian delegation to the Versailles peace treaty trivialized the famine and obscured its causes ... The scheme worked so well that scholars dealing with Iran, even if they did know about it, did not write about it, until now." [13]. And Professor Rudi Matthee, in a review of Floor's book, had seconded Floor's sarcasm and misrepresentation of Majd's book, though it is doubtful he had read it. But you neglect to add that other writers like Alidad Mafinezam and Aria Mehrabi had cautiously praised the book: "One of the little known calamities of World War I and its aftermath in Iran is the widespread famine that the war engendered in the country. The most significant treatment of this subject is the book by the agricultural economist Mohammad-Gholi Majd ... A more extensive scholarly treatment of this subject would have to utilize 'triangulation' and provide evidence from others... to show the extent of the famine and the ways it was affected by the war and its aftermath." [14] Nor do you inform the reader that the Irish historian, Pat Walsh, was highly favorable to Majd's book. Walsh's review is entitled, "Who Remembers the Persians..." [15] These deliberate omissions indicate that you are not a fair and unbiased editor.
Finally, you vehemently attack Majd's "A Victorian Holocaust: Iran in the Great Famine of 1869-1873." [16] Others beg to disagree. In a 2018 review of Recent Publications in the Middle East Journal, Clara Hecht praised the book: "Historian Mohammad Gholi Majd draws attention to one of the most significant, yet often overlooked events in Iranian history in his third and most recent addition to his series on historical famines in Iran. Majd provides a detailed history of the largely forgotten catastrophe and challenges some of the previously held notions regarding its causes and extent ... 'A Victorian Holocaust' is an ideal selection for those looking to examine one of the deadliest disasters of the 19th century through an original, historical, and perhaps controversial lens, in addition to readers who enjoyed Majd's first two books in the series."[Recent Publications. The Middle East Journal, Volume 72, Number 2, Spring 2018, pp. 350-354(5) DOI: https://doi.org/10.3751/72.2.4] Moretonian ( talk) 15:31, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Here is an analysis that uses the population figures given in the State Department archives and the decline in the population of Tehran to calculate the most likely death toll at 5-7 million and with a certainty that the death toll was between 3 to 10 million. The author appears to have a background in demography. Here is a quote from the piece: [17]
While Majd's 8-10 million is within the confidence interval, the 2 million given in the "mainstream" and adopted in the article's infobox falls outside the confidence interval. Also since the famine ended in 1919, the use of 1920 population figure is unlikely to greatly inflate the estimated number of casualties. What is the underpinning and basis for the 2 million figure? It appears it was first given in Pollack's 2003 book and then it has simply been reproduced by some other writers and then in the WP article. The true death toll appears to be three to four times the number given in the current version of the article. Moretonian ( talk) 18:02, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
"I fully admitted to not attempting to sift through new primary sources. My point re. those figures was that, even if you believe the raw numbers provided by Gholi Majd, his accounting is still generous to the point of inaccuracy."In other words, the anonymous Redditor cited by Moretonian identified remedial math errors in Majd's analysis; correcting those errors yields the range of 5-7 million excess deaths, significantly fewer than Madj's claimed 8-10 million, but that is only
"if you believe the raw numbers provided by Gholi Majd"âwhose demonstrable incompetence, needless to say, does not inspire confidence! Again, we shouldn't be citing Reddit in the first place, but Moretonian's comment is a remarkable self-own: The top-voted comment in the Reddit thread agrees that Majd's population stats are nearly twice those found in other sources and cites an academic reviewer noting that
"Majd does not explain why he has confidence in Bharier's 1919 population figure (p. 52) but not in his 1914 figure."Hmmm... Why could that be? (Note that Bharier, using standard demographic tools, estimated Iran's 1914 population to be 10.89 million and Iran's 1919 population to be 11.29 million. For reasons that he declined to explain in detail, Majd decided that Bharier's 1914 estimate missed nearly half of Iran's population, but that Bharier's estimate of ~11 million Iranians in 1919, calculated using the same methodology, is unimpeachable.) TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 22:02, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Again, no clarity on the 2 million figure adopted in the WP article. The claim that Bharier's estimates are "unimpeachable" is false. As repeatedly stated, Bharier's 1968 article contains nothing on the WWI and WWII famines, not even a mention. It is like writing a history of the 20th century without mentioning the two world wars, regardless of "methodology". Secondly, while for 1920, 1925, 1930 and 1940 Bharier's estimates are close to the State Department (hereafter archival) figures, at the crucial points that are relevant to estimating the famine death tolls in WWI and WWII, Bharier's estimates vastly diverge from the archival numbers.
The archival numbers available for calculating the WWI death toll are those 1900, 1910, 1914, and 1920, and a comparison with Bharier's estimates for these years is given. For 1900, archival figure is 12 million and Bharier's 9.86 million; for 1910, the archival figure is 15-17 million, while Bharier's is 10.58 million; for 1914, archival figure is 20 million, while Bharier's is 10.89 million; and finally, for 1920, the archival figure is 10 million, and Bharier's is 11.37 million. Thus, while the archival numbers reflect the advent of a cataclysmic event, in the happy make-believe world of Bharier, nothing has happened. The same is observed for WWII. Archival for 1940 is 15 million and Bharier is 14.55 million; but then for 1944, archival is 10-12 million, while Bharier is 15.43 million.
Compare the 1900 (12 million) and 1920 (10 million) archival numbers. The famine had wiped out 20 years of population growth plus 2 million. Thus the 2 million given in the WP article leaves out 20 years of population growth lost to famine.
Finally, let's be ultra conservative and compare the 1910 (15-17 million) and 1920 (10 million) populations while disregarding the 20 million given for 1914. At a minimum 5-7 million had perished. But then we have to add the population growth (natural progression) for the 1910-1920 decade. Again, let's be very conservative and put the growth at 3 million, the same as that of 1900-1910. We know this is under count because the starting base in 1910 is 15-17 million compared to 12 million in 1900. The result is a death toll of at least 8-10 million. Moretonian ( talk) 16:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Julian Bharier's 1968 article, "A Note on the Population of Iran, 1900-1966," was published in Population Studies, a publication of the "Population Investigation Committee" which was founded in London in 1936. The article is 7 pages of which only the equivalent of 2.25 pages consist of text and the rest tables and graphs. He estimates the 1900-1966 population by the method backward projection, with the 1956 and 1966 censuses as the starting point. He divides the 1900-1966 period into sub-periods, and assigns a growth rate to each. Going backward, he estimates the population for each year. As shown below, the article contains factual errors, apparent deliberate omissions, unjustified assumptions, and the actual "adjustments" of the census numbers have biased the entire backward projection. In short, Bharier should not be used to determine the death tolls during the WWI and WWII famines.
Following Mehdi Amani of Tehran University, Bharier's first sub-period consists of 1900-1925. He rejects Amani's proposed growth rate of 0.2% and adopts Hottum-Schindler's (HS) suggested growth rate of 0.75% because of HS's "long residence in Persia." But there was a problem: HS's estimate of 0.75% was only for 1900-1910. Bharier "extends it" 1o 1910-1919 on the basis of a confidential 1919 Foreign Office Handbook on Persia. (Bharier, 275) He next extends HS's growth rate to cover 1920-1925 as well "Because these years were years of civil war, famine, and little evidence of industrial, transportation or agricultural progress." (Bharier, 277) There was no civil war or famine during 1920-1925. While ignoring the 1917-1919 famine, he attempts to create a fictitious one for 1920-1925. He acknowledges that some publications such as the League of Nations 1924 report on opium production in Persia, and the economist M.K. Fateh's 1926 book, "The Economic Position of Persia," had reported a large decline in the population of Iran in the early decades of the 20th century, but he dismisses them because they "give the usual Malthusian reasons for sudden declines in population". (Bharier, 279) We know the "Malthusian reasons" are famine and war. Evidently, Bharier was aware of the 1917-1919 famine, but had failed to mention it. Nevertheless, he claims that his estimates are "the nearest one can get to the truth." (Bharier, 275)
For 1926-1945, he appears to select a growth rate of 2% (compared to Amani's 1.5%) and specifically states that the Civil Registration Office (C.R.O.) figures indicate the population grew at 2% per year during 1942-1945. (Bharier, 277) However, the graph of the C.R.O. yearly data given in Bharier (p. 278) shows a decline in population during 1942-1945, and the C.R.O. population figure for 1941 exceeds Bharier's by about 2 million. No attempt at explaining the contradiction is given by the author. Moreover, according to the C.R.O., the population had grown much faster than 2% during 1934-1941. Bharier's explanation: "the bulge from 1934-41 can be put down to underreporting of deaths because food rations at that time were geared to the presentation of identity cards." (Bharier, 278-279). Bharier's source: "Information gleaned from officials and friends in Iran." There was no food rationing in Iran during 1934-1941. Rationing was instituted after August 1941 Allied occupation. There is no mention of the WWII famine though it is hard to believe that both Julian Bharier and Mehdi Amani were unaware of it.
Finally, and briefly, Bharier adopts Amani's growth rate of 2.5% for 1946-1956 and his own 2.9% for 1956-1966. The actual population growth rate for 1956-1966, the second decade of the baby boom, according to the census numbers was 3.12%. The difference is apparently caused by the upward "adjustments" of 7.5% and 5% to the 1956 and 1966 censuses, respectively. The two cited sources are both "unpublished." (Bharier, 276) Combining a low growth rate for 1946-1956 and arbitrarily increasing the census counts, artificially inflates the 1945 population estimate and biases the remaining numbers down the years. Moretonian ( talk) 17:34, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
But, census records in 1920 put the population at 10 million. Using this to discredit the accepted toll that you have stated without any source whatsoever as having first been put forward by Balfour who has not been mentioned in the article up until now is not what is expected from an encyclopedia. Seeing as his figure of 5 million in 1919 is half of that of the 1920 census I do not think that it can be considered as a RS. Who is Balfour and is he considered as an expert in this matter? Where is your source that shows the other authors were using his figures as you seem to be implying? Dom from Paris ( talk) 16:31, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
However, Balfour makes very clear and cautions the reader that the 2 million death toll is based on an estimated pre-famine population of of 7 million, of which 2 million, about 30%, had perished. The implied post-famine population indicated by the European resident is only 5 million, half the usual estimate of 10 million given in other sources (please note there was no census in 1920, and the figures are all estimates). He also points out that the implied 5 million is below the figure for 1810. Those who have cited Balfour directly or indirectly, have neglected to mention his caveat concerning the assumed pre-famine population of 7 million, and the implied post-famine population of 5 million. For instance, Rubin states that 2 million out of 10 million had died.
The above is based on published sources and cannot be construed as original research. Besides, I have not insisted on the inclusion of the Balfour book in the article and the latest version contains no mention. Moretonian ( talk) 16:38, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
This article can be a WP:GOOD one easily. Benyamin-ln ( talk) 01:03, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Who are these scholars? How did they dispute it? What are their credentials? Sickofthisbs ( talk) 18:07, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
@Sickofthisbs. [U|Domedeparis] claims that Alireza Mafinezam and Aria Mehrabi, the authors of a book entitled, Iran and its Place Among Nations, [18] are among several scholars who have severely criticized Majd's methodology and vigorously disputed his findings. I haven't seen the work, but according to the source I found, this is what they actually wrote in their book: [19]
The authors also add:
There is no implied "criticism" of Majd or "dispute" with his conclusions. As to the inability to "corroborate" the figures, including the one given by Murray, a diplomat of long residence in Persia, all the figures are corroborated by data found in State Department archives. The British army did not deliberately separate farmers from consumers. but by commandeering all the available horses, camels, mules and donkeys, it established a de facto separation of farmers and consumers, and forced the farmers to sell to the British army, the only purchaser with transport as well as money. Deprived of food, the Iranians starved. The authors could have also included other British trade and financial policies, including failure to pay Iran's share of oil revenues during 1914-1921. I would also add that since the book uses many sources, including American diplomatic archives and missionary reports, memoirs of several British military officers who served in Iran during WWI as well as the official history of the British campaign in Mesopotamia [20], Iranian newspapers, as well as memoirs of notable Iranians, it has already used "triangulation" as all the cited sources corroborate each other. Moretonian ( talk) 02:13, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
In his 2008 book (p. 196),
[21] Abrahamian has called Majd's estimate of WWI famine losses an "exaggerated discussion," and in his 2013 book
[22], he accuses Majd of making a "wild accusation" by stating that British policies in WWI amounted to genocide. Abrahamian (2013, pp. 26-27) writes: "A contemporary Iranian historian recently made the wild accusation that British food exactions to feed its army of occupation during World War I resulted in 10 million dead--half the population. He accuses the British government of 'covering up' this 'genocide' by systematically destroying annual reports. In fact, no annual reports on Iran were written from 1913 to 1922".
The statement immediately reveals that Professor Abrahamian had either not read Majd's book and was ignorant of its contents, or he was deliberately misrepresenting its contents. [23] I believe he had not read the book. For if he had read it, he would have known that no such accusation (destroying documents) is made in either the 2003 or 2013 version. What Majd had actually said in both versions was that the British government had refused to declassify War Office and military records pertaining to Iran for 1914-1921. The accusation that the British government had destroyed documents, according to Professor Amir A. Afkhami, had first surfaced on Ayatollah Khamenei's website in 2015. [24] Abrahamian had mistakenly assumed that it came from Majd. Abrahamian's false statements provided fodder for Rudi Matthee (2019, p. 183) who wrote that Willem Floor "appropriately relegates Mohammad Gholi Majd's overblown, conspiracy filled book, on the epidemic and the number of 8-10 million (or almost the country's entire population) given by him, to a footnote." [25] Note Rudi Matthee's attempt to whitewash the famine by calling it "the epidemic."
Such false statements and claims by the likes of Abrahamian and Matthee have been seized by Domdeparis and TheTimesAreAChanging in their unceasing attempt to denigrate and discredit Majd and to whitewash the three historical famines of 1869-1873, 1917-1919, and 1942-1944. Moretonian ( talk) 02:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
The list of critics also includes Professor Abbas Milani (2011, p. 468) who has accused Majd of selective use of documents: "His tendency to pick and choose the sources that confirm what he, a priori, wants to prove, makes many of his assertions doubtful." [26] He implies other documents disprove Majd's conclusions and that Majd has been dishonest in his use of sources. It has been nearly 20 years since The Great Famine & Genocide in Persia, 1917-1919, was published, ample time for Professor Milani and other scholars to find and publish these supposedly hidden documents. Not a shred of reliable evidence has been produced during this time to undermine the book's findings. Only misinformation and false statements. Moretonian ( talk) 23:13, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
I understand that User:Moretonian seeks changes in the article that were disagreed by User:TheTimesAreAChanging and User:Domdeparis, so I ask Moretonian to propose changes he wants to be made in the article so that we can reach a consensus. Pahlevun ( talk) 12:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
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I'm looking forward to expand this article complying with the WP:HISTRS and for now, I'm going to tag the shorcomings. I welcome other users intersted participating in the process. Pahlevun ( talk) 18:28, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
@ Pahlevun: I specifically agree with you declaring the second section as original research. It seriously needs a rewrite. I suggest we mention the views of Majd on the population (before and after the famine) and then include the critics. -- Kazemita1 ( talk) 08:23, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
The PBS link's content is:
1918-1919: Famine devastates the Persian (Iranian) people.
As much as a quarter of the population living in the north of Iran dies in a famine. The devastating effect of a world war and a period of severe drought and widespread crop failure are the primary contributing factors to the famine.
Note that:
This has caused some Iranian scholars to call the famine a genocideand
To the level that some Iranian sources call it a British genocide against Persian people.
Moreover, it is a jounalism source and according to WP:RSE#History and WP:HISTRS, not a proper references. I highly recommend removing it, as well as Mashregh News and Khamenei.ir. Pahlevun ( talk) 10:04, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 13:22, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, we are not allowed to do original research as I am sure you agree. What is left to do is to look for the most reliable source out there on this matter. I will go ahead and ask the WP:RSN to see if they have a say on Pollack's book regarding the stats used in this article.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 19:21, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
The population of Persia in 1911 was estimated to be 7.6 million.[13] This would mean that the population was multiplied by more than 2.5 between 1911 and 1914. Other sources do not back up this rapid rise in the population of Persia. Pahlevun ( talk) 17:20, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
We have no proof that Majd has paid to publish the book. American Philosophical Association website describes UPA as a publisher that "has delivered high-quality research and textbooks into the hands of students and faculty in a timely manner since its founding in 1975." [6] Moreover, removing a source that initiated an academic debate would make the counter-arguments mentioned in the article meaningless. Pahlevun ( talk) 16:11, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Pahlevun and Kazemita1: The infobox photo was removed by Domdeparis, claiming that it did not have a RS supporting it. However, there are some sources ( [7], [8] and [9]) for this photo. Your feedback please! -- Mhhossein talk 15:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Since there are no photos in either the 2003 edition nor in the 2nd edition (2013) of the book, the photo was NOT published by Majd. Like Kazemita1, Professor Abrahamian had also indulged in speculation when he claimed that Majd had accused the British of destroying documents. The accusation was posted on Ayatollah Khamenei's website but the good professor simply assumed that it originated from Majd. Nowhere in Majd's book is there a claim that the Brits had destroyed documents--only delayed declassification. Abrahamian could have spared himself a great deal of chagrin if he had simply read the book before pontificating. Moretonian ( talk) 03:23, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Trying to remove the NPOV tag in the article, for the first step I suggest replacing the current lead with this:
The Great Persian famine of 1917â1919 was a period of widespread mass starvation and disease in Persia (Iran) under rule of Qajar dynasty during World War I. So far, few historians have worked on the famine that took place in the occupied territory of the country that declared neutrality, making it an understudied subject.
According to the estimates acknowledged by the mainstream view, about 2 million people died between 1917 and 1919 because of hunger and from diseases, which included cholera, plague and typhus, as well as influenza infected by 1918 flu pandemic. A variety of factors are commented to have caused and contributed to the famine, including successive seasonal droughts, requisitioning and confiscation of foodstuffs by occupying armies, speculation, hoarding, war profiteering, and bad harvests.
I tried to summarize it neutrally per WP:LEAD, and I welcome any comment/proposed edit on the text above for discussion. For the next step, I think we should try to adjust the weight given to the views (and in particular, write Majd's view in pithy). Pahlevun ( talk) 14:26, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
In the table below, all of the sources that discuss death toll are listed. In order to quickly assess the quality of each source, information about the "piece of work itself", "creator of the work" and "publisher of the work" are mentioned per Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Sources sorted by date of publication:
Source | Publisher of Source | Author's main expertise | Author's academic affiliation | Estimated number? | Supports Majd's view? |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Majd 2003 (book) | University Press of America | History of Iran | None | 8â10 million | N/A |
Pollack 2004 (book) | Random House | Middle East Intelligence | None | 2 million | No, numbers dramatically differ |
Messkoub 2006 (article) | Routledge | History of Iran | International Institute of Social Studies | â | No, rejects it |
Mafinezam & Mehrabi 2008 (book) | Greenwood Publishing | Iran Affairs | None | â [a] | No, rejects it |
Abrahamian ( 2008, 2013) (book) | Cambridge University Press | History of Iran | City University of New York | 2 million | No, rejects it |
The New Press | |||||
Ă GrĂĄda 2009 (book) | Princeton University Press | Famine | University College Dublin | â [b] | No (implicitly), rejects it |
Milani 2011 (book) | Palgrave Macmillan | History of Iran | Stanford University | â | No, rejects it |
Ebrahimnejad 2013 (book) | Springer | History of Iran | University of Southampton | 'Several millions' | No, rejects it |
Katouzian 2013 (book) | Oneworld Publications | History of Iran | University of Oxford | 2 million | No, numbers dramatically differ |
Ward 2014 (book) | Georgetown University Press | Middle East Intelligence | None | 2 million | No, numbers dramatically differ |
Rubin 2015 (book) | Routledge | Middle East Affairs | Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya | 2 million | No, numbers dramatically differ |
Winegard 2016 (book) | University of Toronto Press | Military History | Colorado Mesa University | 8â10 million | Yes (implicitly), used as a source |
Pordeli 2017 (article) | Canadian Center of Science and Education | History of Iran | Zabol University | 8â10 million | Yes, used as a source |
â Pahlevun ( talk) 18:19, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Other scholars have seen those American documents as well. Have you any sources confirm that? Benyamin-ln ( talk) 15:51, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Domdeparis and Pahlevun, the new single-purpose account Moretonian is aggressively edit warring a new version of this article that replaces all of the research above with an exclusive reliance on Majd's extreme minority view. Moretonian has offered no edit summaries or participation here. In addition, I have since done some digging and confirmed Domdeparis's previous concerns that Majd's work is essentially self-published; Majd's publisher (formerly the now-defunct University Press of America, which used the same model, guaranteeing publication/marketing within five months of submission, and now Hamilton Books, both nominally imprints of Rowman & Littlefield) states that it uses "an innovative model that combines the best features of self-publishing (quick decision making, a higher level of author control over the content, swift publication process) with the benefit of publishing with an established publishing house that will typeset, print, and market your book." Note that there is no mention of fact-checking! Bottom line: Even though it has not been peer reviewed and is essentially self-published, Wikipedia can mention Majd's error-filled, exaggerated account, but we should make clear that it has been widely panned by academic historians. Moretonian's POV-pushing edits are unacceptable. TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 20:39, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
TheTimesAreAChanging and Domdeparis have again claimed that Majd's books are self-published, and have not been peer reviewed or fact-checked, an allegation apparently first made in 2017. And they have used the allegation to block any revision of the Wikipedia pages on the 1869-1873, 1917-1919, and 1942-1944 famines that had cited Majd's works. The University Press of America (UPA) was an imprint of Rowman and Littlefield Publishing group, the sixth largest US publisher founded in 1949. According to the American Philosophical Association, "UPA has delivered high-quality research and textbooks into the hands of students and faculty in a timely manner since its founding in 1975." I also noted that in the UPA webpage cited by TheTimesAreAChanging, the acquisitions department had solicited scholars interested in reviewing submitted manuscripts to UPA to send in their credentials. UPA was renamed Hamilton Books in 2017. Since Majd's UPA books have all been reviewed in refereed scholarly journals, they have been scrutinized before and after publication. As to the absence fact-checking, the books largely consist of verbatum reproduction of US State Department records, available to all. Anyone can fact-check the material and the Office of the Historian at the State Department has increasingly put the documents online, especially those pertaining to the World War II famine. The 1917-1919 famine book was published nearly twenty years ago. Since Domedeparis and TheTimesAreAChanging are so strongly opposed to or perhaps suspect its contents, they should have fact-checked the book during all these years and they still can and should. Finally, an appeal to the two respected editors. Please stop blocking revisions to the 1869-1873 Wikipedia famine page. It is the most tragic of the three famines. Hamilton Books, The book follows in the footsteps of Mike Davis's 2002 book, "Mid-Victorian Holocausts: El Nino Famines and the Makings of the Third World. London and New York: Verso," and it is the only monograph on the subject in the English language. The current Wikipedia sections on contemporary statements and the death toll need serious rewriting. My apologies for the lengthy post. Moretonian ( talk) 15:47, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
"The University Press of America (UPA) was an imprint of Rowman and Littlefield Publishing group, the sixth largest US publisher founded in 1949. ... UPA was renamed Hamilton Books in 2017."The Hamilton Books website makes clear that it is an imprint (see vanity press) for authors that cannot get published elsewhere or deliberately seek to evade fact-checking and editorial oversight: "Hamilton Books ... (uses) an innovative model that combines the best features of self-publishing (quick decision making, a higher level of author control over the content, swift publication process) with the benefit of publishing with an established publishing house that will typeset, print, and market your book." [emphasis added
"Since Majd's UPA books have all been reviewed in refereed scholarly journals, they have been scrutinized before and after publication."Indeed, and scholarly reviews of Majd's work have not been favorable, as seen above. To give just one example, Willem Floor "appropriately relegates Mohammad Gholi Majd's overblown, conspiracy-ïŹlled book on the epidemic and the number of 8-10 million (or almost the country's entire population) given by him, to a footnote."
"As to the absence fact-checking, the books largely consist of verbatum reproduction of US State Department records, available to all. Anyone can fact-check the material and the Office of the Historian at the State Department has increasingly put the documents online, especially those pertaining to the World War II famine."Wikipedia editors are not historians nor do we have the expertise to engage in historical analysis by scrutinizing primary source documents. (See WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. If you are an historian, then you will need to get published by a reputable outlet before Wikipedia can cite your conclusions.)
"[Majd's book] is the only monograph on the [1869-1873 famine] in the English language."Unfortunately, Majd's A Victorian Holocaust: Iran in the Great Famine of 1869â1873 is not a reliable source (due to being published under the Hamilton Books label, which exclusively handled printing/marketing at Majd's expense; Hamilton Books has no reputation for fact-checking or accuracy), so it does little to substantiate anything related to this alleged event, let alone that it
"took 10â12 million lives,"or considerably more than Iran's entire population at the time as measured in every source other than Majd. You may argue that English-language scholars have neglected this alleged
"Holocaust"due to racism, Eurocentrism, Iranophobia, etc., but in the absence of any reliable sources for such claims there really is not much that Wikipedia can do. We are not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 21:55, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
TheTimesAreAChanging. As stated by Moretonian and previously by Pahlevun, there is no proof that Majd paid to have his books published. Yet you keep on pushing the same allegation for lack of anything better.
As you point out, Willem Floor was highly critical of Majd, going as far as sarcasm when he wrote: "So good were the British in concealing that there even had been a famine that the document tabled by the official Persian delegation to the Versailles peace treaty trivialized the famine and obscured its causes ... The scheme worked so well that scholars dealing with Iran, even if they did know about it, did not write about it, until now." [13]. And Professor Rudi Matthee, in a review of Floor's book, had seconded Floor's sarcasm and misrepresentation of Majd's book, though it is doubtful he had read it. But you neglect to add that other writers like Alidad Mafinezam and Aria Mehrabi had cautiously praised the book: "One of the little known calamities of World War I and its aftermath in Iran is the widespread famine that the war engendered in the country. The most significant treatment of this subject is the book by the agricultural economist Mohammad-Gholi Majd ... A more extensive scholarly treatment of this subject would have to utilize 'triangulation' and provide evidence from others... to show the extent of the famine and the ways it was affected by the war and its aftermath." [14] Nor do you inform the reader that the Irish historian, Pat Walsh, was highly favorable to Majd's book. Walsh's review is entitled, "Who Remembers the Persians..." [15] These deliberate omissions indicate that you are not a fair and unbiased editor.
Finally, you vehemently attack Majd's "A Victorian Holocaust: Iran in the Great Famine of 1869-1873." [16] Others beg to disagree. In a 2018 review of Recent Publications in the Middle East Journal, Clara Hecht praised the book: "Historian Mohammad Gholi Majd draws attention to one of the most significant, yet often overlooked events in Iranian history in his third and most recent addition to his series on historical famines in Iran. Majd provides a detailed history of the largely forgotten catastrophe and challenges some of the previously held notions regarding its causes and extent ... 'A Victorian Holocaust' is an ideal selection for those looking to examine one of the deadliest disasters of the 19th century through an original, historical, and perhaps controversial lens, in addition to readers who enjoyed Majd's first two books in the series."[Recent Publications. The Middle East Journal, Volume 72, Number 2, Spring 2018, pp. 350-354(5) DOI: https://doi.org/10.3751/72.2.4] Moretonian ( talk) 15:31, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Here is an analysis that uses the population figures given in the State Department archives and the decline in the population of Tehran to calculate the most likely death toll at 5-7 million and with a certainty that the death toll was between 3 to 10 million. The author appears to have a background in demography. Here is a quote from the piece: [17]
While Majd's 8-10 million is within the confidence interval, the 2 million given in the "mainstream" and adopted in the article's infobox falls outside the confidence interval. Also since the famine ended in 1919, the use of 1920 population figure is unlikely to greatly inflate the estimated number of casualties. What is the underpinning and basis for the 2 million figure? It appears it was first given in Pollack's 2003 book and then it has simply been reproduced by some other writers and then in the WP article. The true death toll appears to be three to four times the number given in the current version of the article. Moretonian ( talk) 18:02, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
"I fully admitted to not attempting to sift through new primary sources. My point re. those figures was that, even if you believe the raw numbers provided by Gholi Majd, his accounting is still generous to the point of inaccuracy."In other words, the anonymous Redditor cited by Moretonian identified remedial math errors in Majd's analysis; correcting those errors yields the range of 5-7 million excess deaths, significantly fewer than Madj's claimed 8-10 million, but that is only
"if you believe the raw numbers provided by Gholi Majd"âwhose demonstrable incompetence, needless to say, does not inspire confidence! Again, we shouldn't be citing Reddit in the first place, but Moretonian's comment is a remarkable self-own: The top-voted comment in the Reddit thread agrees that Majd's population stats are nearly twice those found in other sources and cites an academic reviewer noting that
"Majd does not explain why he has confidence in Bharier's 1919 population figure (p. 52) but not in his 1914 figure."Hmmm... Why could that be? (Note that Bharier, using standard demographic tools, estimated Iran's 1914 population to be 10.89 million and Iran's 1919 population to be 11.29 million. For reasons that he declined to explain in detail, Majd decided that Bharier's 1914 estimate missed nearly half of Iran's population, but that Bharier's estimate of ~11 million Iranians in 1919, calculated using the same methodology, is unimpeachable.) TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 22:02, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Again, no clarity on the 2 million figure adopted in the WP article. The claim that Bharier's estimates are "unimpeachable" is false. As repeatedly stated, Bharier's 1968 article contains nothing on the WWI and WWII famines, not even a mention. It is like writing a history of the 20th century without mentioning the two world wars, regardless of "methodology". Secondly, while for 1920, 1925, 1930 and 1940 Bharier's estimates are close to the State Department (hereafter archival) figures, at the crucial points that are relevant to estimating the famine death tolls in WWI and WWII, Bharier's estimates vastly diverge from the archival numbers.
The archival numbers available for calculating the WWI death toll are those 1900, 1910, 1914, and 1920, and a comparison with Bharier's estimates for these years is given. For 1900, archival figure is 12 million and Bharier's 9.86 million; for 1910, the archival figure is 15-17 million, while Bharier's is 10.58 million; for 1914, archival figure is 20 million, while Bharier's is 10.89 million; and finally, for 1920, the archival figure is 10 million, and Bharier's is 11.37 million. Thus, while the archival numbers reflect the advent of a cataclysmic event, in the happy make-believe world of Bharier, nothing has happened. The same is observed for WWII. Archival for 1940 is 15 million and Bharier is 14.55 million; but then for 1944, archival is 10-12 million, while Bharier is 15.43 million.
Compare the 1900 (12 million) and 1920 (10 million) archival numbers. The famine had wiped out 20 years of population growth plus 2 million. Thus the 2 million given in the WP article leaves out 20 years of population growth lost to famine.
Finally, let's be ultra conservative and compare the 1910 (15-17 million) and 1920 (10 million) populations while disregarding the 20 million given for 1914. At a minimum 5-7 million had perished. But then we have to add the population growth (natural progression) for the 1910-1920 decade. Again, let's be very conservative and put the growth at 3 million, the same as that of 1900-1910. We know this is under count because the starting base in 1910 is 15-17 million compared to 12 million in 1900. The result is a death toll of at least 8-10 million. Moretonian ( talk) 16:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Julian Bharier's 1968 article, "A Note on the Population of Iran, 1900-1966," was published in Population Studies, a publication of the "Population Investigation Committee" which was founded in London in 1936. The article is 7 pages of which only the equivalent of 2.25 pages consist of text and the rest tables and graphs. He estimates the 1900-1966 population by the method backward projection, with the 1956 and 1966 censuses as the starting point. He divides the 1900-1966 period into sub-periods, and assigns a growth rate to each. Going backward, he estimates the population for each year. As shown below, the article contains factual errors, apparent deliberate omissions, unjustified assumptions, and the actual "adjustments" of the census numbers have biased the entire backward projection. In short, Bharier should not be used to determine the death tolls during the WWI and WWII famines.
Following Mehdi Amani of Tehran University, Bharier's first sub-period consists of 1900-1925. He rejects Amani's proposed growth rate of 0.2% and adopts Hottum-Schindler's (HS) suggested growth rate of 0.75% because of HS's "long residence in Persia." But there was a problem: HS's estimate of 0.75% was only for 1900-1910. Bharier "extends it" 1o 1910-1919 on the basis of a confidential 1919 Foreign Office Handbook on Persia. (Bharier, 275) He next extends HS's growth rate to cover 1920-1925 as well "Because these years were years of civil war, famine, and little evidence of industrial, transportation or agricultural progress." (Bharier, 277) There was no civil war or famine during 1920-1925. While ignoring the 1917-1919 famine, he attempts to create a fictitious one for 1920-1925. He acknowledges that some publications such as the League of Nations 1924 report on opium production in Persia, and the economist M.K. Fateh's 1926 book, "The Economic Position of Persia," had reported a large decline in the population of Iran in the early decades of the 20th century, but he dismisses them because they "give the usual Malthusian reasons for sudden declines in population". (Bharier, 279) We know the "Malthusian reasons" are famine and war. Evidently, Bharier was aware of the 1917-1919 famine, but had failed to mention it. Nevertheless, he claims that his estimates are "the nearest one can get to the truth." (Bharier, 275)
For 1926-1945, he appears to select a growth rate of 2% (compared to Amani's 1.5%) and specifically states that the Civil Registration Office (C.R.O.) figures indicate the population grew at 2% per year during 1942-1945. (Bharier, 277) However, the graph of the C.R.O. yearly data given in Bharier (p. 278) shows a decline in population during 1942-1945, and the C.R.O. population figure for 1941 exceeds Bharier's by about 2 million. No attempt at explaining the contradiction is given by the author. Moreover, according to the C.R.O., the population had grown much faster than 2% during 1934-1941. Bharier's explanation: "the bulge from 1934-41 can be put down to underreporting of deaths because food rations at that time were geared to the presentation of identity cards." (Bharier, 278-279). Bharier's source: "Information gleaned from officials and friends in Iran." There was no food rationing in Iran during 1934-1941. Rationing was instituted after August 1941 Allied occupation. There is no mention of the WWII famine though it is hard to believe that both Julian Bharier and Mehdi Amani were unaware of it.
Finally, and briefly, Bharier adopts Amani's growth rate of 2.5% for 1946-1956 and his own 2.9% for 1956-1966. The actual population growth rate for 1956-1966, the second decade of the baby boom, according to the census numbers was 3.12%. The difference is apparently caused by the upward "adjustments" of 7.5% and 5% to the 1956 and 1966 censuses, respectively. The two cited sources are both "unpublished." (Bharier, 276) Combining a low growth rate for 1946-1956 and arbitrarily increasing the census counts, artificially inflates the 1945 population estimate and biases the remaining numbers down the years. Moretonian ( talk) 17:34, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
But, census records in 1920 put the population at 10 million. Using this to discredit the accepted toll that you have stated without any source whatsoever as having first been put forward by Balfour who has not been mentioned in the article up until now is not what is expected from an encyclopedia. Seeing as his figure of 5 million in 1919 is half of that of the 1920 census I do not think that it can be considered as a RS. Who is Balfour and is he considered as an expert in this matter? Where is your source that shows the other authors were using his figures as you seem to be implying? Dom from Paris ( talk) 16:31, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
However, Balfour makes very clear and cautions the reader that the 2 million death toll is based on an estimated pre-famine population of of 7 million, of which 2 million, about 30%, had perished. The implied post-famine population indicated by the European resident is only 5 million, half the usual estimate of 10 million given in other sources (please note there was no census in 1920, and the figures are all estimates). He also points out that the implied 5 million is below the figure for 1810. Those who have cited Balfour directly or indirectly, have neglected to mention his caveat concerning the assumed pre-famine population of 7 million, and the implied post-famine population of 5 million. For instance, Rubin states that 2 million out of 10 million had died.
The above is based on published sources and cannot be construed as original research. Besides, I have not insisted on the inclusion of the Balfour book in the article and the latest version contains no mention. Moretonian ( talk) 16:38, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
This article can be a WP:GOOD one easily. Benyamin-ln ( talk) 01:03, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Who are these scholars? How did they dispute it? What are their credentials? Sickofthisbs ( talk) 18:07, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
@Sickofthisbs. [U|Domedeparis] claims that Alireza Mafinezam and Aria Mehrabi, the authors of a book entitled, Iran and its Place Among Nations, [18] are among several scholars who have severely criticized Majd's methodology and vigorously disputed his findings. I haven't seen the work, but according to the source I found, this is what they actually wrote in their book: [19]
The authors also add:
There is no implied "criticism" of Majd or "dispute" with his conclusions. As to the inability to "corroborate" the figures, including the one given by Murray, a diplomat of long residence in Persia, all the figures are corroborated by data found in State Department archives. The British army did not deliberately separate farmers from consumers. but by commandeering all the available horses, camels, mules and donkeys, it established a de facto separation of farmers and consumers, and forced the farmers to sell to the British army, the only purchaser with transport as well as money. Deprived of food, the Iranians starved. The authors could have also included other British trade and financial policies, including failure to pay Iran's share of oil revenues during 1914-1921. I would also add that since the book uses many sources, including American diplomatic archives and missionary reports, memoirs of several British military officers who served in Iran during WWI as well as the official history of the British campaign in Mesopotamia [20], Iranian newspapers, as well as memoirs of notable Iranians, it has already used "triangulation" as all the cited sources corroborate each other. Moretonian ( talk) 02:13, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
In his 2008 book (p. 196),
[21] Abrahamian has called Majd's estimate of WWI famine losses an "exaggerated discussion," and in his 2013 book
[22], he accuses Majd of making a "wild accusation" by stating that British policies in WWI amounted to genocide. Abrahamian (2013, pp. 26-27) writes: "A contemporary Iranian historian recently made the wild accusation that British food exactions to feed its army of occupation during World War I resulted in 10 million dead--half the population. He accuses the British government of 'covering up' this 'genocide' by systematically destroying annual reports. In fact, no annual reports on Iran were written from 1913 to 1922".
The statement immediately reveals that Professor Abrahamian had either not read Majd's book and was ignorant of its contents, or he was deliberately misrepresenting its contents. [23] I believe he had not read the book. For if he had read it, he would have known that no such accusation (destroying documents) is made in either the 2003 or 2013 version. What Majd had actually said in both versions was that the British government had refused to declassify War Office and military records pertaining to Iran for 1914-1921. The accusation that the British government had destroyed documents, according to Professor Amir A. Afkhami, had first surfaced on Ayatollah Khamenei's website in 2015. [24] Abrahamian had mistakenly assumed that it came from Majd. Abrahamian's false statements provided fodder for Rudi Matthee (2019, p. 183) who wrote that Willem Floor "appropriately relegates Mohammad Gholi Majd's overblown, conspiracy filled book, on the epidemic and the number of 8-10 million (or almost the country's entire population) given by him, to a footnote." [25] Note Rudi Matthee's attempt to whitewash the famine by calling it "the epidemic."
Such false statements and claims by the likes of Abrahamian and Matthee have been seized by Domdeparis and TheTimesAreAChanging in their unceasing attempt to denigrate and discredit Majd and to whitewash the three historical famines of 1869-1873, 1917-1919, and 1942-1944. Moretonian ( talk) 02:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
The list of critics also includes Professor Abbas Milani (2011, p. 468) who has accused Majd of selective use of documents: "His tendency to pick and choose the sources that confirm what he, a priori, wants to prove, makes many of his assertions doubtful." [26] He implies other documents disprove Majd's conclusions and that Majd has been dishonest in his use of sources. It has been nearly 20 years since The Great Famine & Genocide in Persia, 1917-1919, was published, ample time for Professor Milani and other scholars to find and publish these supposedly hidden documents. Not a shred of reliable evidence has been produced during this time to undermine the book's findings. Only misinformation and false statements. Moretonian ( talk) 23:13, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
I understand that User:Moretonian seeks changes in the article that were disagreed by User:TheTimesAreAChanging and User:Domdeparis, so I ask Moretonian to propose changes he wants to be made in the article so that we can reach a consensus. Pahlevun ( talk) 12:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)