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![]() | On 27 August 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from Periyar (river) to Periyar River. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Why does Periyar redirect to the article on the river and not to the disambiguation page? Please stop the edit wars. There are better things to do in life and in wikipedia. ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε †αLҝ 08:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone say, please, what PWD stands for? I'd like to copy edit this piece, and an unexpanded acronym shouldn't be present. Davy p 22:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
PWD stands for Public Works Department - P.K.Niyogi ( talk) 08:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks - I thought it might but wanted to be sure. Davy p ( talk) 02:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
The location of Sivagiri hills is Tamil Nadu. It is very sad that it is not mentioned anywhere. Page creator has to take this into account - Yutha — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yutha ( talk • contribs) 19:09, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Sivagiri hills is located along the north-east border of Idukki district in Kerala state.I believe Yutha is confused with the place Sivagiri in Erode District. 15 December 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.91.135.88 ( talk) 09:33, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
-- Please note that Periyar River starts from Sivagiri hills in south eastern part of Idukki District and not from TN. Refresh you geography classes ( talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nubin wiki ( talk • contribs) 19:54, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Proper citation provided on the rivers origin. Pearll's Sun TALK 02:08, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Do you mind to provide the proper citation about river origin (I would appreciate if it is from TN govt) here -- Nubin_wiki ( talk) 03:02, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
I would appreciate if you can tell me how many Kms this river is running through state on TN. Nowhere TN govt sites it is mentioned that Periyar originates from TN -- Nubin_wiki ( talk) 03:05, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Has it been mentioned in any kerala govt site that it originates from Kerala? TN does not want to make a big issue of it , but only until, this was misused. u should provide link here from kerala. thks. . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chennaitvnews ( talk • contribs) 03:48, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source for an estimate of the size of the population in Tamil Nadu whose water depends on the Periyar? Davy p 22:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Also can anyone reference how much water flows along the Periyar (perhaps at different times of the year) and how far the tidal region extends upstream from the sea? Davy p 00:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Can someone comes with a proof for the Interstate river claim for Periyar. It should be a credible proofs, otherwise I would ask administrators consider making Periyar as Interstate river as vandalism. ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:01, 23 December 2011 (UTC).
-- I found the TN government [1] article regarding Irrigation where every river flowing through Tamil Nadu is mentioned. Periyar river is not mentioned in the list. talk —Preceding undated comment added 19:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC).
-- Many people are trying to edit the article in vested interested without any credible proofs. Administrators please lock this article and start a healthy debate on the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nubin wiki ( talk • contribs) 02:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
-- Please provide TN Government's Official website link/documents to prove Periyar as a inter state river. -- Nubin_wiki ( talk) 02:59, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
--- The citations have the proof. Now what is fact is stated. dont create new facts. if you have any contrary proofs, cite them in this page, and then we can talk, Nubin.
-- All I'm asking you is to state TN Govt link/document for this. I've proofs from Kerala govt to state. Do you want me to share those details here. Please be calm and lets clear this doubts. Shall I consider stating Periyar as inter state river as a vandalism if you are not able to provide a credible TN govt claim on this. -- Nubin_wiki ( talk) 03:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Go ahead and produce a kerala govt. proof first and i will show you the errors. all articles state the origin same and only you differ and hence onus is on you to disprove. share the link here and then surely we can talk — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chennaitvnews ( talk • contribs) 03:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Check this - [2] (nowhere it says it originates from TN) Check this Idukki official govt site [3]... PLease find the errors in these reports with TN govt sites links/docs..-- Nubin_wiki ( talk) 03:50, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
That is clever wording. 'part of the district in the sense it is the northern border. that sivagiri is a hill in that area belonging to Tamilnadu is documented in government maps and is in public libraries. you can check govt maps.The same has been produced to courts as well.
-- Can you prove it with TN govt docs or not? You still didn't answer my question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nubin wiki ( talk • contribs) 04:06, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
What you have shown is not kerala govt document and in that website also the words do not say what you think it says. so i am still waiting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chennaitvnews ( talk • contribs) 04:11, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
-- First link is from Kerala [4] is a State govt site and the second link is Idukki district official site. I haven't seen a single TN govt link/doc for your fake claim — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nubin wiki ( talk • contribs) 04:24, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
A proper citation should be enough in wiki and this not necessarily be a source from a particular state's official source, a clear info from a genuine source should be enough, the provided citations have a good credible reference, they can be challenged if proven otherwise. Pearll's Sun TALK 17:01, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
--Stating Periyar as an interstate river should be based on facts. One fact is that Periyar originates in Kerala, flows through Kerala and joins the ocean in Kerala. The other fact is that some of catchment area lies in Tamilnadu and as with all rivers Periyar is formed by the confluence of many head-streams and a head-stream originates from Tamilnadu. Now the question is whether you define a river as an interstate river by its course or by its catchment area. By popular understanding it is by course.-- Anandutss ( talk) 10:42, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Previous edit by a user - "This is being wrongly edited earlier as kerala by vested interests." Users editing this article with illogic facts and violating Wiki policies. Administrators please have a look at this. -- Nubin_wiki ( talk) 03:18, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Article reverted with explanation. Proof's for it's origin in Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu.
1: http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/biodiversity/documents/rivers.htm 2: http://www.indiawaterportal.org/sites/indiawaterportal.org/files/Joseph%20M.L.pdf 3: http://www.irenees.net/fr/fiches/analyse/fiche-analyse-633.html
Proof's for it's origin in Kerala.
1: http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/article2764198.ece
Any better proof's? Please discuss before changing Pearll's Sun TALK 06:34, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
The first link says that periyar originates from Sivagirimala. The second link says "Periyar originates in the ‘Sivagiri’ group of hills in ‘Sundara Malai’". Neither of them says where Sivagiri or Sundara Malai is. Third one says about "Sivagiri peaks of Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu". According to Google Maps, Sivagiri Malai is in Kerala. http://maps.google.com/maps/place?q=Sivagiri+Malai,India&hl=en . No information about Sundara Malai available either in wikipedia or Google Maps. Reverted back to previous edit. -- Syam Kumar ( talk) 09:15, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Added Google map as a reference for the location of Sivagiri Malai -- Syam Kumar ( talk) 09:29, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Ref 2 & 3:
The river Periyar, the longest river of the state (PWD,1974; CESS,1984) is considered to be the life line of Central Kerala. It originates from the Sivagiri peaks (1800m MSL) of Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu. Google Map cant be had as a reference as the following reference's says otherwise 1: http://www.theweatherinindia.com/weather/Tamil_Nadu/Sivagiri_Malai
2: http://www.getamap.net/maps/india/tamil_nadu/_sivagirimalai/
3: http://www.keralaindiavacation.com/kerala-tourist-destinations/periyar-kerala.html
4: http://www.holiday-packagesindia.com/india-vacations/index.html
5: http://tripsguru.com/Rivers/Periyar.html Please discuss here before replacing the multiple references with the google map. Pearll's Sun TALK 12:46, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Please include your references if you think the rivers location is disputed. Pearll's Sun TALK 02:06, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Here is the best proof to show that the origin of Periyar river is in Kerala from Ministry of water resources.
I don't think any credible proof than this can be presented. Thanks to the person who added this to wikipedia.
Nubin_wiki (
talk)
03:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Reply to Sitush. From what I understand.
AshLin ( talk) 20:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Which Sivagiri is being referred to in this source? The implication is that it is the one in Kerala because the source makes no mention of Tamil Nadu. Since it is unclear, it should probably not be used. - Sitush ( talk) 16:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
AshLin ( talk) 19:02, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
The origin of Periyar river is in Kerala only, though it's near to the border to Tamilnadu along the Western ghats. There were concerted efforts to twist this fact by quoting either misguiding links or illegitimate references, as detailed below.
Ref# [1] ces.iisc, Western Ghats rivers in Kerala. http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/biodiversity/documents/rivers.htm A genuine website managed by Govt. of india, in section "Western Ghats rivers in Kerala" says: "Periyar The longest river in Kerala. Originates from Sivagirimala. Numerous rivulets join to form the Periyar River. It runs through Devikulam, Thodupuzha, Moovattupuzha, Kunnathunadu and Paravur Taluk and at Aluva takes two different directions. While one flows into the Chalakkudipuzha the other joins the Vembanadu Lake at Varapuzha. It measures a length of 244 kilometers and an area of 5398 sq.km."
Ref#[2] indiawaterportal.org, Status Report on Periyar River http://www.indiawaterportal.org/sites/indiawaterportal.org/files/Joseph%20M.L.pdf The link points to a project report prepared by an ordinary individual, and not officially accepted ever by any authentic Govt department.** Hence the reference may be ignored being a user uploaded content.
Ref# [3] irenees.net The information contained in this document is misguiding, though it refers to two documents, out of which the following one is a genuine document.
Ref-1. Greenpeace Report on Pollution in Periyar - Aditi Wanchoo, Greenpeace India http://www.greenpeace.to/publications/HIL%20report%202003.pdf Page#3,Para.4 Says: the Periyar River, in the state of Kerala, South India. The river originates in the Periyar Lake near the border with the state of Tamil Nadu, receives several tributaries on its way and finally joins the Arabian Sea near the port city of Cochin. This clearly states that the origin is within Kerala only, as Western ghats borders the two states and the river if originated in the eastern slope of the mountains wont flow westwards to kerala.
Ref-2. Status Report on Periyar - krpcds.org/report/Joseph%20M.L.pdf This refers to the same document given as Ref#[2] in wiki page, which is a user uploaded content.
Thus it's evident that the Periyar River originates in Kerala only. Hence references [2] & [3] shall be removed and substituted by this genuine record from Govt. of India's Ministry of water resources http://mowr.gov.in/writereaddata/linkimages/mediumriver7679492738.pdf which says: S. No. (21); Name of the River (Periyar); Village/Distt. (Sivajini Hills); Origin/State (Kerala); Length/Km. (244); Catchment Area/Sq.Km (5398)
As such, any further edits on the origin of river must be avoided.
It seems that someone did open a discussion on a relevant project -see here. - Sitush ( talk) 07:08, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
It's quite absurd that the official source given is not at all considered or discussed prior to concluding that the origin is in Tamilnadu. The site mowr.gov.in is the official website of Ministry of Water Resources Govt. of India, as the disclaimer says This portal has been developed, hosted and maintained by NIC. The content is provided by Ministry of Water Resources.. The authentic document pointed by the referenced link clearly states that the origin of the river is in Kerala state, without any confusion, as per S.No.21 in the given table of Medium River Basins Of The Country. No one should have any objection about that the MOWR is the official agency who is deemed as the record keeper of water sheds and river basins data in India. I strongly suspect the neutrality of Sitush as he is suspected to belong to the state of Tamilnadu, the reason why he is deliberately disregarding the official sources about the origin confirming Kerala.
At least commonsense could be used to imagine how a river if originated in the eastern side of a mountain range flow westwards, if it was true that it originated in Tamilnadu side of western ghats, or otherwise it should defy gravity to climb up the mountains ! Also the "Mullaperiyar dam" article in wikipedia itself says that the water from the Periyar (Thekkady) Lake created by the dam, is diverted through the water shed cutting and a subterranean tunnel to Forebay Dam near Kumili (Errachipalam) in Tamil Nadu. If the river actually originated in Tamilnadu, why do they need to drill a tunnel across the mountains to divert water to Tamilnadu?? They could have the water flow directly in to their region if it's origin was really within Tamilnadu only.
If this kind of attempt is made again to deliberately disregard official records towards twisting known geographic facts, I would need to resort to legal remedies to counter such people. Of course, I'm using the term people, since I have gone through and have enough evidences to prove the history of concerted efforts of a few people to twist known facts in their favor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashokkerala ( talk • contribs) 20:27, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I would propose something like:
Periyar (meaning: big river) is the longest river in the Indian state of Kerala, where its length is 244 kilometres (152 mi). It is one of the few perennial rivers in the region and provides drinking water for several major towns. [1] The Idukki Dam on the Periyar generates a significant proportion of Kerala's electrical power. [2]
The source of the Periyar is variously claimed to be in Kerala and in the neighbouring state of Tamil Nadu. Its origins lie in the mountainous Western Ghats and Greenpeace state the source as being the Periyar Lake, which is near to the Tamil Nadu border. [3] There are alternate claims for a Tamil Nadu origin. S. N. Sadasivan has said that, "In fact, of a plethora of small streams and brooks at the source of the Periyar, only two the Nirar and Anamalayar, with a total catchment area of 113 or 114 sq. km. running in the Anamala folds are partially in Tamil Nadu". [4] An undated, unattributed table published by the Government of India's Ministry of Water Resources states its source to be in the Sivagini Hills but does not make clear in which state it considers that area to be. [5]
Within Kerala, the total length is about 244 kilometres (152 mi), with a catchment area of 5,284 square kilometres (2,040 sq mi). The claimed Tamil Nadu sources amount to a further 114 square kilometres (44 sq mi) [4] over a distance of around 48 kilometres (30 mi).
The only thing that I have not yet sourced is the 48 km claim, which I assume has been cited in the article at some point. Thoughts? - Sitush ( talk) 17:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Gosh, this is messy, isn't it ?!- Sitush ( talk) 20:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
adding two more infos that may be useful to read [6] [7]
I second "Recommended wording . The Periyar river arises from the watershed of the Western Ghats, flowing westwards from the region near Sivagiri(Tamil Nadu), in the vicinity of the state-boundary. (With a footnote giving details of the two sets of conflicting references)" by AshLin.
Thanks all for participating. Pearll's Sun TALK 21:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
References
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I have been looking at the references we have for the source of the Periyar being in Kerala or in Tamil Nadu. Let's split them into different categories
Tamil Nadu in the plaint has averred as follows: “The plaintiff, defendant no.1, State of Kerala are the two riparian States through which the Inter-State river Periyar flows. The river is one of the west flowing rivers in the State of Kerala, with a portion of its catchment lying with the State of Tamil Nadu………….” [3]
Though the Periyar basin area that falls in Tamil Nadu is very small but, in our view, that does not make any difference insofar as the status of Periyar river as inter-State river is concerned. The fact of the matter is that 114 sq. km. of Periyar basin area falls in Tamil Nadu. [4]
Since Kerala has raised the plea that river Periyar is an intraState river, obviously, burden is on Kerala to prove this fact. Kerala, except asserting that Periyar river rises in and traverses only in the territory of Kerala before entering into Arabian sea and no part of the land in Tamil Nadu abuts river Periyar, has not produced substantial evidence to prove that river Periyar is an intra-State river. Kerala has not discharged its burden to the satisfaction of the Court. [5]
It is not open to Kerala to take a totally inconsistent plea and begin fresh controversy about the status of Periyar river on the ground that the earlier plea was founded on some erroneous premise. [6]
It is true that averment of Tamil Nadu in the plaint that the two States – Kerala and Tamil Nadu – are riparian States is not right in its entirety because Tamil Nadu is not a riparian State [5]
Apart from the sources with the State of Kerala asserting that the Periyar originates in Kerala, we have the following sources for a Kerala origin.
Almost 80% of the district is drained by Periyar River, which is the largest river in Kerala which originates at the southeastern border of the district. [7]
Saddled in the southern region of the Western Ghats, spread across an area of 777 sq. km of forest land and home to a luxuriant collection of different species of flora and fauna is the Periyar Tiger Reserve. This spectacular stretch of greenery gets its name from the River Periyar which has its origin deep inside the reserve. [8]
Periyar Tiger Reserve has a much undulated terrain ranging in altitude from 100 m (Pambavalley) to 2016 m (Vellimala) above sea level. The conspicuous peaks are Pachayarmala, Vellimala, Kottamala, Sunderamala, Chokkampetti mala and Karimala. The Periyar River originating from Chokkampettimala flows towards the North. [10]
From its source near Chokkanpattimala initially Periyar flows north between these two heavily forested ridges. [11]
Periyar Tiger Reserve that takes its name from the river Periyar, the largest river in Kerala, lies between 9' 16' and 9"40' N lat and between 76"55' and 77"25' E long. The reserve having an area of 777 km2 is situated on the Western Ghats in the ldukki district of Kerala. [12]
The Periyar River which originates from Chokkampetty with its manifold tributaries drains the Sanctuary area. [12]
First, Periyar flows entirely in Kerala; no part of the river flows through Tamil Nadu. [13]
Sources pointing to a Tamil Nadu origin are mostly a synopsis of another source (a report by M L Joseph) which looks to be the first place where this claim was made. M L Joseph's report states:
The river Periyar, the longest river of the state (PWD,1974; CESS,1984) is considered to be the life line of Central Kerala. It originates from the Sivagiri peaks (1800m MSL) of Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu. The total length is about 300Kms (244Kms in Kerala) with a catchment area of 5396Sq Kms (5284 Sq. Kms in Kerala). [14]
The above statement is used verbatim in a second source - irenees.net - which lists M L Joseph's report as a reference. [15]
A third source, a PhD thesis by Balamurugan R at the Anna University, also uses the exact same statement shown above, but it does no show M L Joseph's report as a reference. It repeats the same mistake made by M L Joseph stating Periyar's length to be 300km. [16]
In other words, the only source explicitly stating Periyar's origin to be in Tamil Nadu is M L Joseph's report. The others are simply refering to M L Joseph's report.
None of the sources pointing to a Tamil Nadu origin come from any government or official source from the State of Tamil Nadu. During the Mullaperiyar hearings, Tamil Nadu did not refute Kerala's assertions regarding the origin and path of the Periyar. The only geographical claim that Tamil Nadu makes is that a part of the basin of Periyar lies in their state, something Kerala has not denied. If any part of Periyar even touched the state of Tamil Nadu, there would have been no dispute regarding the status of the river as an inter-state river as Tamil Nadu would have simply refuted Kerala's claim and asserted that a part of the Periyar touches Tamil Nadu.
Most of the claims for a Kerala origin are from the state of Kerala, Central govt or state govt agencies or persons linked to the central or state govt agencies. None of the claims of a Tamil Nadu origin are from the state of Tamil Nadu or from any person or agency linked to the central or state governments.
The most that Tamil Nadu has claimed is that a part of the Periyar basin extends into its territory and this makes the river inter-state. This, however, does not prove that origin lies in Tamil Nadu. To claim that it does is WP:SYNTHESIS.
The sources pointing to the origin in Kerala appear to be far more authoritative, with most of them coming from government, current or ex government officials or government agencies. -- Qcrepku1 ( talk) 04:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 ( talk) 13:47, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Periyar (river) → Periyar River – all river articles are named as X River and not X (river) Venkat TL ( talk) 13:13, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
The Cheraman Mosque is located near the end of the Periyar in Kodungalloor, but fairly far away from the river. Muslims do not believe that the proximity of a mosque to a holy river is special, or that things like rivers can even be holy. As such I have removed that paragraph from the 'religious significance' section. Indielov ( talk) 14:29, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | On 27 August 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from Periyar (river) to Periyar River. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Why does Periyar redirect to the article on the river and not to the disambiguation page? Please stop the edit wars. There are better things to do in life and in wikipedia. ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε †αLҝ 08:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone say, please, what PWD stands for? I'd like to copy edit this piece, and an unexpanded acronym shouldn't be present. Davy p 22:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
PWD stands for Public Works Department - P.K.Niyogi ( talk) 08:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks - I thought it might but wanted to be sure. Davy p ( talk) 02:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
The location of Sivagiri hills is Tamil Nadu. It is very sad that it is not mentioned anywhere. Page creator has to take this into account - Yutha — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yutha ( talk • contribs) 19:09, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Sivagiri hills is located along the north-east border of Idukki district in Kerala state.I believe Yutha is confused with the place Sivagiri in Erode District. 15 December 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.91.135.88 ( talk) 09:33, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
-- Please note that Periyar River starts from Sivagiri hills in south eastern part of Idukki District and not from TN. Refresh you geography classes ( talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nubin wiki ( talk • contribs) 19:54, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Proper citation provided on the rivers origin. Pearll's Sun TALK 02:08, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Do you mind to provide the proper citation about river origin (I would appreciate if it is from TN govt) here -- Nubin_wiki ( talk) 03:02, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
I would appreciate if you can tell me how many Kms this river is running through state on TN. Nowhere TN govt sites it is mentioned that Periyar originates from TN -- Nubin_wiki ( talk) 03:05, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Has it been mentioned in any kerala govt site that it originates from Kerala? TN does not want to make a big issue of it , but only until, this was misused. u should provide link here from kerala. thks. . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chennaitvnews ( talk • contribs) 03:48, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source for an estimate of the size of the population in Tamil Nadu whose water depends on the Periyar? Davy p 22:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Also can anyone reference how much water flows along the Periyar (perhaps at different times of the year) and how far the tidal region extends upstream from the sea? Davy p 00:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Can someone comes with a proof for the Interstate river claim for Periyar. It should be a credible proofs, otherwise I would ask administrators consider making Periyar as Interstate river as vandalism. ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:01, 23 December 2011 (UTC).
-- I found the TN government [1] article regarding Irrigation where every river flowing through Tamil Nadu is mentioned. Periyar river is not mentioned in the list. talk —Preceding undated comment added 19:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC).
-- Many people are trying to edit the article in vested interested without any credible proofs. Administrators please lock this article and start a healthy debate on the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nubin wiki ( talk • contribs) 02:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
-- Please provide TN Government's Official website link/documents to prove Periyar as a inter state river. -- Nubin_wiki ( talk) 02:59, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
--- The citations have the proof. Now what is fact is stated. dont create new facts. if you have any contrary proofs, cite them in this page, and then we can talk, Nubin.
-- All I'm asking you is to state TN Govt link/document for this. I've proofs from Kerala govt to state. Do you want me to share those details here. Please be calm and lets clear this doubts. Shall I consider stating Periyar as inter state river as a vandalism if you are not able to provide a credible TN govt claim on this. -- Nubin_wiki ( talk) 03:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Go ahead and produce a kerala govt. proof first and i will show you the errors. all articles state the origin same and only you differ and hence onus is on you to disprove. share the link here and then surely we can talk — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chennaitvnews ( talk • contribs) 03:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Check this - [2] (nowhere it says it originates from TN) Check this Idukki official govt site [3]... PLease find the errors in these reports with TN govt sites links/docs..-- Nubin_wiki ( talk) 03:50, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
That is clever wording. 'part of the district in the sense it is the northern border. that sivagiri is a hill in that area belonging to Tamilnadu is documented in government maps and is in public libraries. you can check govt maps.The same has been produced to courts as well.
-- Can you prove it with TN govt docs or not? You still didn't answer my question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nubin wiki ( talk • contribs) 04:06, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
What you have shown is not kerala govt document and in that website also the words do not say what you think it says. so i am still waiting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chennaitvnews ( talk • contribs) 04:11, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
-- First link is from Kerala [4] is a State govt site and the second link is Idukki district official site. I haven't seen a single TN govt link/doc for your fake claim — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nubin wiki ( talk • contribs) 04:24, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
A proper citation should be enough in wiki and this not necessarily be a source from a particular state's official source, a clear info from a genuine source should be enough, the provided citations have a good credible reference, they can be challenged if proven otherwise. Pearll's Sun TALK 17:01, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
--Stating Periyar as an interstate river should be based on facts. One fact is that Periyar originates in Kerala, flows through Kerala and joins the ocean in Kerala. The other fact is that some of catchment area lies in Tamilnadu and as with all rivers Periyar is formed by the confluence of many head-streams and a head-stream originates from Tamilnadu. Now the question is whether you define a river as an interstate river by its course or by its catchment area. By popular understanding it is by course.-- Anandutss ( talk) 10:42, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Previous edit by a user - "This is being wrongly edited earlier as kerala by vested interests." Users editing this article with illogic facts and violating Wiki policies. Administrators please have a look at this. -- Nubin_wiki ( talk) 03:18, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Article reverted with explanation. Proof's for it's origin in Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu.
1: http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/biodiversity/documents/rivers.htm 2: http://www.indiawaterportal.org/sites/indiawaterportal.org/files/Joseph%20M.L.pdf 3: http://www.irenees.net/fr/fiches/analyse/fiche-analyse-633.html
Proof's for it's origin in Kerala.
1: http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/article2764198.ece
Any better proof's? Please discuss before changing Pearll's Sun TALK 06:34, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
The first link says that periyar originates from Sivagirimala. The second link says "Periyar originates in the ‘Sivagiri’ group of hills in ‘Sundara Malai’". Neither of them says where Sivagiri or Sundara Malai is. Third one says about "Sivagiri peaks of Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu". According to Google Maps, Sivagiri Malai is in Kerala. http://maps.google.com/maps/place?q=Sivagiri+Malai,India&hl=en . No information about Sundara Malai available either in wikipedia or Google Maps. Reverted back to previous edit. -- Syam Kumar ( talk) 09:15, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Added Google map as a reference for the location of Sivagiri Malai -- Syam Kumar ( talk) 09:29, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Ref 2 & 3:
The river Periyar, the longest river of the state (PWD,1974; CESS,1984) is considered to be the life line of Central Kerala. It originates from the Sivagiri peaks (1800m MSL) of Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu. Google Map cant be had as a reference as the following reference's says otherwise 1: http://www.theweatherinindia.com/weather/Tamil_Nadu/Sivagiri_Malai
2: http://www.getamap.net/maps/india/tamil_nadu/_sivagirimalai/
3: http://www.keralaindiavacation.com/kerala-tourist-destinations/periyar-kerala.html
4: http://www.holiday-packagesindia.com/india-vacations/index.html
5: http://tripsguru.com/Rivers/Periyar.html Please discuss here before replacing the multiple references with the google map. Pearll's Sun TALK 12:46, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Please include your references if you think the rivers location is disputed. Pearll's Sun TALK 02:06, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Here is the best proof to show that the origin of Periyar river is in Kerala from Ministry of water resources.
I don't think any credible proof than this can be presented. Thanks to the person who added this to wikipedia.
Nubin_wiki (
talk)
03:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Reply to Sitush. From what I understand.
AshLin ( talk) 20:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Which Sivagiri is being referred to in this source? The implication is that it is the one in Kerala because the source makes no mention of Tamil Nadu. Since it is unclear, it should probably not be used. - Sitush ( talk) 16:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
AshLin ( talk) 19:02, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
The origin of Periyar river is in Kerala only, though it's near to the border to Tamilnadu along the Western ghats. There were concerted efforts to twist this fact by quoting either misguiding links or illegitimate references, as detailed below.
Ref# [1] ces.iisc, Western Ghats rivers in Kerala. http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/biodiversity/documents/rivers.htm A genuine website managed by Govt. of india, in section "Western Ghats rivers in Kerala" says: "Periyar The longest river in Kerala. Originates from Sivagirimala. Numerous rivulets join to form the Periyar River. It runs through Devikulam, Thodupuzha, Moovattupuzha, Kunnathunadu and Paravur Taluk and at Aluva takes two different directions. While one flows into the Chalakkudipuzha the other joins the Vembanadu Lake at Varapuzha. It measures a length of 244 kilometers and an area of 5398 sq.km."
Ref#[2] indiawaterportal.org, Status Report on Periyar River http://www.indiawaterportal.org/sites/indiawaterportal.org/files/Joseph%20M.L.pdf The link points to a project report prepared by an ordinary individual, and not officially accepted ever by any authentic Govt department.** Hence the reference may be ignored being a user uploaded content.
Ref# [3] irenees.net The information contained in this document is misguiding, though it refers to two documents, out of which the following one is a genuine document.
Ref-1. Greenpeace Report on Pollution in Periyar - Aditi Wanchoo, Greenpeace India http://www.greenpeace.to/publications/HIL%20report%202003.pdf Page#3,Para.4 Says: the Periyar River, in the state of Kerala, South India. The river originates in the Periyar Lake near the border with the state of Tamil Nadu, receives several tributaries on its way and finally joins the Arabian Sea near the port city of Cochin. This clearly states that the origin is within Kerala only, as Western ghats borders the two states and the river if originated in the eastern slope of the mountains wont flow westwards to kerala.
Ref-2. Status Report on Periyar - krpcds.org/report/Joseph%20M.L.pdf This refers to the same document given as Ref#[2] in wiki page, which is a user uploaded content.
Thus it's evident that the Periyar River originates in Kerala only. Hence references [2] & [3] shall be removed and substituted by this genuine record from Govt. of India's Ministry of water resources http://mowr.gov.in/writereaddata/linkimages/mediumriver7679492738.pdf which says: S. No. (21); Name of the River (Periyar); Village/Distt. (Sivajini Hills); Origin/State (Kerala); Length/Km. (244); Catchment Area/Sq.Km (5398)
As such, any further edits on the origin of river must be avoided.
It seems that someone did open a discussion on a relevant project -see here. - Sitush ( talk) 07:08, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
It's quite absurd that the official source given is not at all considered or discussed prior to concluding that the origin is in Tamilnadu. The site mowr.gov.in is the official website of Ministry of Water Resources Govt. of India, as the disclaimer says This portal has been developed, hosted and maintained by NIC. The content is provided by Ministry of Water Resources.. The authentic document pointed by the referenced link clearly states that the origin of the river is in Kerala state, without any confusion, as per S.No.21 in the given table of Medium River Basins Of The Country. No one should have any objection about that the MOWR is the official agency who is deemed as the record keeper of water sheds and river basins data in India. I strongly suspect the neutrality of Sitush as he is suspected to belong to the state of Tamilnadu, the reason why he is deliberately disregarding the official sources about the origin confirming Kerala.
At least commonsense could be used to imagine how a river if originated in the eastern side of a mountain range flow westwards, if it was true that it originated in Tamilnadu side of western ghats, or otherwise it should defy gravity to climb up the mountains ! Also the "Mullaperiyar dam" article in wikipedia itself says that the water from the Periyar (Thekkady) Lake created by the dam, is diverted through the water shed cutting and a subterranean tunnel to Forebay Dam near Kumili (Errachipalam) in Tamil Nadu. If the river actually originated in Tamilnadu, why do they need to drill a tunnel across the mountains to divert water to Tamilnadu?? They could have the water flow directly in to their region if it's origin was really within Tamilnadu only.
If this kind of attempt is made again to deliberately disregard official records towards twisting known geographic facts, I would need to resort to legal remedies to counter such people. Of course, I'm using the term people, since I have gone through and have enough evidences to prove the history of concerted efforts of a few people to twist known facts in their favor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashokkerala ( talk • contribs) 20:27, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I would propose something like:
Periyar (meaning: big river) is the longest river in the Indian state of Kerala, where its length is 244 kilometres (152 mi). It is one of the few perennial rivers in the region and provides drinking water for several major towns. [1] The Idukki Dam on the Periyar generates a significant proportion of Kerala's electrical power. [2]
The source of the Periyar is variously claimed to be in Kerala and in the neighbouring state of Tamil Nadu. Its origins lie in the mountainous Western Ghats and Greenpeace state the source as being the Periyar Lake, which is near to the Tamil Nadu border. [3] There are alternate claims for a Tamil Nadu origin. S. N. Sadasivan has said that, "In fact, of a plethora of small streams and brooks at the source of the Periyar, only two the Nirar and Anamalayar, with a total catchment area of 113 or 114 sq. km. running in the Anamala folds are partially in Tamil Nadu". [4] An undated, unattributed table published by the Government of India's Ministry of Water Resources states its source to be in the Sivagini Hills but does not make clear in which state it considers that area to be. [5]
Within Kerala, the total length is about 244 kilometres (152 mi), with a catchment area of 5,284 square kilometres (2,040 sq mi). The claimed Tamil Nadu sources amount to a further 114 square kilometres (44 sq mi) [4] over a distance of around 48 kilometres (30 mi).
The only thing that I have not yet sourced is the 48 km claim, which I assume has been cited in the article at some point. Thoughts? - Sitush ( talk) 17:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Gosh, this is messy, isn't it ?!- Sitush ( talk) 20:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
adding two more infos that may be useful to read [6] [7]
I second "Recommended wording . The Periyar river arises from the watershed of the Western Ghats, flowing westwards from the region near Sivagiri(Tamil Nadu), in the vicinity of the state-boundary. (With a footnote giving details of the two sets of conflicting references)" by AshLin.
Thanks all for participating. Pearll's Sun TALK 21:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
References
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I have been looking at the references we have for the source of the Periyar being in Kerala or in Tamil Nadu. Let's split them into different categories
Tamil Nadu in the plaint has averred as follows: “The plaintiff, defendant no.1, State of Kerala are the two riparian States through which the Inter-State river Periyar flows. The river is one of the west flowing rivers in the State of Kerala, with a portion of its catchment lying with the State of Tamil Nadu………….” [3]
Though the Periyar basin area that falls in Tamil Nadu is very small but, in our view, that does not make any difference insofar as the status of Periyar river as inter-State river is concerned. The fact of the matter is that 114 sq. km. of Periyar basin area falls in Tamil Nadu. [4]
Since Kerala has raised the plea that river Periyar is an intraState river, obviously, burden is on Kerala to prove this fact. Kerala, except asserting that Periyar river rises in and traverses only in the territory of Kerala before entering into Arabian sea and no part of the land in Tamil Nadu abuts river Periyar, has not produced substantial evidence to prove that river Periyar is an intra-State river. Kerala has not discharged its burden to the satisfaction of the Court. [5]
It is not open to Kerala to take a totally inconsistent plea and begin fresh controversy about the status of Periyar river on the ground that the earlier plea was founded on some erroneous premise. [6]
It is true that averment of Tamil Nadu in the plaint that the two States – Kerala and Tamil Nadu – are riparian States is not right in its entirety because Tamil Nadu is not a riparian State [5]
Apart from the sources with the State of Kerala asserting that the Periyar originates in Kerala, we have the following sources for a Kerala origin.
Almost 80% of the district is drained by Periyar River, which is the largest river in Kerala which originates at the southeastern border of the district. [7]
Saddled in the southern region of the Western Ghats, spread across an area of 777 sq. km of forest land and home to a luxuriant collection of different species of flora and fauna is the Periyar Tiger Reserve. This spectacular stretch of greenery gets its name from the River Periyar which has its origin deep inside the reserve. [8]
Periyar Tiger Reserve has a much undulated terrain ranging in altitude from 100 m (Pambavalley) to 2016 m (Vellimala) above sea level. The conspicuous peaks are Pachayarmala, Vellimala, Kottamala, Sunderamala, Chokkampetti mala and Karimala. The Periyar River originating from Chokkampettimala flows towards the North. [10]
From its source near Chokkanpattimala initially Periyar flows north between these two heavily forested ridges. [11]
Periyar Tiger Reserve that takes its name from the river Periyar, the largest river in Kerala, lies between 9' 16' and 9"40' N lat and between 76"55' and 77"25' E long. The reserve having an area of 777 km2 is situated on the Western Ghats in the ldukki district of Kerala. [12]
The Periyar River which originates from Chokkampetty with its manifold tributaries drains the Sanctuary area. [12]
First, Periyar flows entirely in Kerala; no part of the river flows through Tamil Nadu. [13]
Sources pointing to a Tamil Nadu origin are mostly a synopsis of another source (a report by M L Joseph) which looks to be the first place where this claim was made. M L Joseph's report states:
The river Periyar, the longest river of the state (PWD,1974; CESS,1984) is considered to be the life line of Central Kerala. It originates from the Sivagiri peaks (1800m MSL) of Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu. The total length is about 300Kms (244Kms in Kerala) with a catchment area of 5396Sq Kms (5284 Sq. Kms in Kerala). [14]
The above statement is used verbatim in a second source - irenees.net - which lists M L Joseph's report as a reference. [15]
A third source, a PhD thesis by Balamurugan R at the Anna University, also uses the exact same statement shown above, but it does no show M L Joseph's report as a reference. It repeats the same mistake made by M L Joseph stating Periyar's length to be 300km. [16]
In other words, the only source explicitly stating Periyar's origin to be in Tamil Nadu is M L Joseph's report. The others are simply refering to M L Joseph's report.
None of the sources pointing to a Tamil Nadu origin come from any government or official source from the State of Tamil Nadu. During the Mullaperiyar hearings, Tamil Nadu did not refute Kerala's assertions regarding the origin and path of the Periyar. The only geographical claim that Tamil Nadu makes is that a part of the basin of Periyar lies in their state, something Kerala has not denied. If any part of Periyar even touched the state of Tamil Nadu, there would have been no dispute regarding the status of the river as an inter-state river as Tamil Nadu would have simply refuted Kerala's claim and asserted that a part of the Periyar touches Tamil Nadu.
Most of the claims for a Kerala origin are from the state of Kerala, Central govt or state govt agencies or persons linked to the central or state govt agencies. None of the claims of a Tamil Nadu origin are from the state of Tamil Nadu or from any person or agency linked to the central or state governments.
The most that Tamil Nadu has claimed is that a part of the Periyar basin extends into its territory and this makes the river inter-state. This, however, does not prove that origin lies in Tamil Nadu. To claim that it does is WP:SYNTHESIS.
The sources pointing to the origin in Kerala appear to be far more authoritative, with most of them coming from government, current or ex government officials or government agencies. -- Qcrepku1 ( talk) 04:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 ( talk) 13:47, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Periyar (river) → Periyar River – all river articles are named as X River and not X (river) Venkat TL ( talk) 13:13, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
The Cheraman Mosque is located near the end of the Periyar in Kodungalloor, but fairly far away from the river. Muslims do not believe that the proximity of a mosque to a holy river is special, or that things like rivers can even be holy. As such I have removed that paragraph from the 'religious significance' section. Indielov ( talk) 14:29, 22 December 2021 (UTC)