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Pentecostalism is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive. | |||||||||||||
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@ Mooters 1563: This user added a section under Beliefs labeled "Oneness" vs Trinitarianism". It lacks any citations, and the content it covers duplicates material already covered in the section on Statistics and denominations, which covers not only Oneness but also the other major divisions of classical Pentecostalism, namely the Wesleyan and Finished Work branches. That section seems the natural place to talk about the differences between Pentecostals, and it features reliable sources. I removed the new section for those reasons but was reverted by User:Mooters 1563 without comment. Would User:Mooters 1563 please provide a rationale for keeping this section? Ltwin ( talk) 22:37, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
I was notified of this discussion by a comment left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard. I would argue that the term "orthodox" carries a lot of baggage. Some groups like to call themselves orthodox and thereby imply the other groups are heretics. WP:NPOV states that we should "prefer nonjudgmental language". Rather than state that trinitarian views are "orthodox", state that "tinitarian doctrine became the accepted norm in the church by the end of the 4th century". If you need a reference, see Trinity#History. See also WP:RNPOV. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 02:03, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
The term "orthodox" is accepted in names of denominations ( Eastern Orthodox/ Oriental Orthodox) but should otherwise be used with utter caution. Replace it with "in accordance with the Council of Nicaea/Church father X/Y" - you may as well add "which Pentacostal clergy Z considers 'orthodox'" - but please refrain from introducing value wording. Thanks! Chicbyaccident ( talk) 06:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
As a way to move forward, I have revised the paragraph, see this . The words "orthodoxy" and "heresy" are still used, but I've tried to establish a more neutral context in which they are used. Ltwin ( talk) 14:18, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
There has been a recent push by IP editors to replace this longstanding image with this image. Personally I prefer the former image as a template image because it is of higher quality, however when I undid the edit my own edit was undone on the rational that the first image was taken in Mexico which is not a predominantly Pentecostal country. I find this rational a bit faulty as the second image was taken in Slovakia in which Pentecostals make up even less of a percentage of the population. Either while it is pretty silly to debate over an image, I was hoping to discuss the issue rather than start a meaningless edit war over this. Inter&anthro ( talk) 13:23, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
User:Ltwin, you reverted my removal of text implying that inerrancy and infallibility are the same thing.
If these two are the same, why are the two terms wikilinked to two different articles? In Inerrancy, it is noted: "Some equate inerrancy with infallibility; others do not." If we are going to equate the two in this article, we should also note that not everyone accepts the equation.
As I understand it (I am an outsider, not a believer) 'inerrancy' is the doctrine that the scriptures (in the form in which their authors composed them) do not contain errors; they are accurate and true, even in matters of science and history. Indeed some advocates of inerrancy apparently assert that a particular translation of the Bible into English is the only inerrant edition.
'Infallibility' is the doctrine that the scriptures are a completely reliable guide to salvation, but are not necessarily a reliable source of truth in other matters.
If the two terms mean the same, then one article should redirect to the other, no?
I don't think that we should gloss inerrancy as infallibility in the lede, because these distinctions seem to be an area that has been disputed for centuries. Move it to the body, and take the trouble to explain properly. MrDemeanour ( talk) 16:04, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
The word inerrant means that something, usually a text, is “without error.” The word infallible—in its lexical meaning, though not necessarily in theological discussions due to Rogers and McKim—is technically a stronger word, meaning that the text is not only “without error” but “incapable of error.” The historic Christian teaching is that the Bible is both inerrant and infallible. It is without error (inerrant) because it is impossible for it to have errors (infallible).
From dictionary definitions, Frame (2002) insists that "infallibility" is a stronger term than "inerrancy". "'Inerrant' means there are no errors; 'infallible' means there can be no errors." Yet he agrees that "modern theologians insist on redefining that word also, so that it actually says less than 'inerrancy.'"[2] Some denominations that teach infallibility hold that the historical or scientific details, which may be irrelevant to matters of faith and Christian practice, may contain errors.[3] ... In this sense it is seen as distinct from Biblical inerrancy, but always accompanying it. The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy uses the term in this sense, saying, "Infallibility and inerrancy may be distinguished but not separated."[5]
Pentecostalism was removed from that category by a bot assisted editor because "Charismatic and Pentecostal Christianity" is already listed, and clicking on that link takes you to Pentecostalism. These categories are a navigational aid only and so anyone could drill down to Pentecostalism through that navigation without need for the duplication. Removal of the category in no way implies that Pentecostalism is not within the evangelical tradition of Protestantism. Sirfurboy ( talk) 11:05, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
An IP editor created a new criticism section, and then populated it with information that may well be correct, but the reference didn't go anywhere. I have deleted the information as it is therefore unsourced, but given a proper source, it could perhaps go back in. The ref was just using a name, as though expecting the source to be there, and plenty of wikilinks were included - I am slightly concerned it could be a copy direct from another page. The WP licence does not allow copying from page to page without attribution, and there would also be a question as to why the information is being duplicated if it were. However I have no proof at this point that it was copied, so for now the only thing preventing its insertion is sourcing.
The other smaller concern I have is that it is a very specific incidence of criticism, and that a criticism section should be fuller and more balanced, or else this criticism should not have its own section but be inline against the part of the article it is most closely related to (Latin American churches in this case). Please consider balance of the article as a whole and WP:DUE before reinserting the material.
For now it can be retrieved from the diff here.[ [1]] -- Sirfurboy ( talk) 16:24, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
ETA: GIYF! The information was copied directly from the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God page with minor tweaks to make the text a more general criticism. I was also able to find the ref, which is here. [2] I don't think, reading this ref, that this can be seen as a criticism of Pentecostalism as a whole. It is specifically Brazil based, primarily about one congregation, and not clearly talking about Pentecostalim as a whole. It says:
"The CCIR, which documented 15 cases of religious intolerance in four Brazilian states, accuses pentecostal churches, especially the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God (Igreja Universal do Reino de Deus, founded in 1977 in Brazil), of attacks and harassment against people of other faiths, and of spreading religious intolerance."
So 15 cases of intolerance, primarily from one church but also criticizing some other Pentecostal congregations in the country, but clearly referring to a very small number. This is WP:UNDUE for a criticism section for the movement as a whole. -- Sirfurboy ( talk) 16:37, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
An IP editor changed the number of Penetcostals from 279 million to 600 million. I reverted as this source in the article does not say that. They have now reverted me but WP:BRD applies. The challenged material should not be reinserted without editor consensus. Thus I am opening this talk section to discuss the numbers.
The source reads:
The editor claims the source says something else although I can only find 600 million in the source as the number of all Christians in 1910. Could you tell me where you are finding the higher number, and then we can evaluate which figure is correct. Thanks. -- Sirfurboy ( talk) 13:41, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited., so I will list a few more.
This article may contain an
excessive number of citations. |
Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
Minimize the number of links.
The subsection on Zora Neale Hurston states that she did research in the 1980's.
This is obviously impossible for the simple fact that she had been dead for 20 years by 1980.
Does anybody have an actual, verifiable date? 2600:1700:FB50:EA00:E428:1032:1D95:8ABB ( talk) 12:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Pentecostalism is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Former featured article candidate |
@ Mooters 1563: This user added a section under Beliefs labeled "Oneness" vs Trinitarianism". It lacks any citations, and the content it covers duplicates material already covered in the section on Statistics and denominations, which covers not only Oneness but also the other major divisions of classical Pentecostalism, namely the Wesleyan and Finished Work branches. That section seems the natural place to talk about the differences between Pentecostals, and it features reliable sources. I removed the new section for those reasons but was reverted by User:Mooters 1563 without comment. Would User:Mooters 1563 please provide a rationale for keeping this section? Ltwin ( talk) 22:37, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
I was notified of this discussion by a comment left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard. I would argue that the term "orthodox" carries a lot of baggage. Some groups like to call themselves orthodox and thereby imply the other groups are heretics. WP:NPOV states that we should "prefer nonjudgmental language". Rather than state that trinitarian views are "orthodox", state that "tinitarian doctrine became the accepted norm in the church by the end of the 4th century". If you need a reference, see Trinity#History. See also WP:RNPOV. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 02:03, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
The term "orthodox" is accepted in names of denominations ( Eastern Orthodox/ Oriental Orthodox) but should otherwise be used with utter caution. Replace it with "in accordance with the Council of Nicaea/Church father X/Y" - you may as well add "which Pentacostal clergy Z considers 'orthodox'" - but please refrain from introducing value wording. Thanks! Chicbyaccident ( talk) 06:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
As a way to move forward, I have revised the paragraph, see this . The words "orthodoxy" and "heresy" are still used, but I've tried to establish a more neutral context in which they are used. Ltwin ( talk) 14:18, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
There has been a recent push by IP editors to replace this longstanding image with this image. Personally I prefer the former image as a template image because it is of higher quality, however when I undid the edit my own edit was undone on the rational that the first image was taken in Mexico which is not a predominantly Pentecostal country. I find this rational a bit faulty as the second image was taken in Slovakia in which Pentecostals make up even less of a percentage of the population. Either while it is pretty silly to debate over an image, I was hoping to discuss the issue rather than start a meaningless edit war over this. Inter&anthro ( talk) 13:23, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
User:Ltwin, you reverted my removal of text implying that inerrancy and infallibility are the same thing.
If these two are the same, why are the two terms wikilinked to two different articles? In Inerrancy, it is noted: "Some equate inerrancy with infallibility; others do not." If we are going to equate the two in this article, we should also note that not everyone accepts the equation.
As I understand it (I am an outsider, not a believer) 'inerrancy' is the doctrine that the scriptures (in the form in which their authors composed them) do not contain errors; they are accurate and true, even in matters of science and history. Indeed some advocates of inerrancy apparently assert that a particular translation of the Bible into English is the only inerrant edition.
'Infallibility' is the doctrine that the scriptures are a completely reliable guide to salvation, but are not necessarily a reliable source of truth in other matters.
If the two terms mean the same, then one article should redirect to the other, no?
I don't think that we should gloss inerrancy as infallibility in the lede, because these distinctions seem to be an area that has been disputed for centuries. Move it to the body, and take the trouble to explain properly. MrDemeanour ( talk) 16:04, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
The word inerrant means that something, usually a text, is “without error.” The word infallible—in its lexical meaning, though not necessarily in theological discussions due to Rogers and McKim—is technically a stronger word, meaning that the text is not only “without error” but “incapable of error.” The historic Christian teaching is that the Bible is both inerrant and infallible. It is without error (inerrant) because it is impossible for it to have errors (infallible).
From dictionary definitions, Frame (2002) insists that "infallibility" is a stronger term than "inerrancy". "'Inerrant' means there are no errors; 'infallible' means there can be no errors." Yet he agrees that "modern theologians insist on redefining that word also, so that it actually says less than 'inerrancy.'"[2] Some denominations that teach infallibility hold that the historical or scientific details, which may be irrelevant to matters of faith and Christian practice, may contain errors.[3] ... In this sense it is seen as distinct from Biblical inerrancy, but always accompanying it. The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy uses the term in this sense, saying, "Infallibility and inerrancy may be distinguished but not separated."[5]
Pentecostalism was removed from that category by a bot assisted editor because "Charismatic and Pentecostal Christianity" is already listed, and clicking on that link takes you to Pentecostalism. These categories are a navigational aid only and so anyone could drill down to Pentecostalism through that navigation without need for the duplication. Removal of the category in no way implies that Pentecostalism is not within the evangelical tradition of Protestantism. Sirfurboy ( talk) 11:05, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
An IP editor created a new criticism section, and then populated it with information that may well be correct, but the reference didn't go anywhere. I have deleted the information as it is therefore unsourced, but given a proper source, it could perhaps go back in. The ref was just using a name, as though expecting the source to be there, and plenty of wikilinks were included - I am slightly concerned it could be a copy direct from another page. The WP licence does not allow copying from page to page without attribution, and there would also be a question as to why the information is being duplicated if it were. However I have no proof at this point that it was copied, so for now the only thing preventing its insertion is sourcing.
The other smaller concern I have is that it is a very specific incidence of criticism, and that a criticism section should be fuller and more balanced, or else this criticism should not have its own section but be inline against the part of the article it is most closely related to (Latin American churches in this case). Please consider balance of the article as a whole and WP:DUE before reinserting the material.
For now it can be retrieved from the diff here.[ [1]] -- Sirfurboy ( talk) 16:24, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
ETA: GIYF! The information was copied directly from the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God page with minor tweaks to make the text a more general criticism. I was also able to find the ref, which is here. [2] I don't think, reading this ref, that this can be seen as a criticism of Pentecostalism as a whole. It is specifically Brazil based, primarily about one congregation, and not clearly talking about Pentecostalim as a whole. It says:
"The CCIR, which documented 15 cases of religious intolerance in four Brazilian states, accuses pentecostal churches, especially the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God (Igreja Universal do Reino de Deus, founded in 1977 in Brazil), of attacks and harassment against people of other faiths, and of spreading religious intolerance."
So 15 cases of intolerance, primarily from one church but also criticizing some other Pentecostal congregations in the country, but clearly referring to a very small number. This is WP:UNDUE for a criticism section for the movement as a whole. -- Sirfurboy ( talk) 16:37, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
An IP editor changed the number of Penetcostals from 279 million to 600 million. I reverted as this source in the article does not say that. They have now reverted me but WP:BRD applies. The challenged material should not be reinserted without editor consensus. Thus I am opening this talk section to discuss the numbers.
The source reads:
The editor claims the source says something else although I can only find 600 million in the source as the number of all Christians in 1910. Could you tell me where you are finding the higher number, and then we can evaluate which figure is correct. Thanks. -- Sirfurboy ( talk) 13:41, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited., so I will list a few more.
This article may contain an
excessive number of citations. |
Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
Minimize the number of links.
The subsection on Zora Neale Hurston states that she did research in the 1980's.
This is obviously impossible for the simple fact that she had been dead for 20 years by 1980.
Does anybody have an actual, verifiable date? 2600:1700:FB50:EA00:E428:1032:1D95:8ABB ( talk) 12:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)